Facing the Canon with Charlie Mackesy

hi I'm Jay John welcome to facing the cannon and I'm delighted today to talk with my friend Charlie magazine how would you describe yourself Charlie hi I paint I paint pictures and sculpt and sometimes speaking churches all right well let's we'll unpack that in a few minutes but let's get let's go back you were born in Northumberland I was born yes in a pub in India and hexam Corbridge sunburned yeah what did you do when you left school Wow when I left school I went to stay with some a good friend of mine I didn't know what I want to do and then he was killed quite quickly after I arrived and he was on a farm in Gloucestershire enough and I know actually two friends were killed which sort of precipitated in me quite a reaction and so I went on her age 19 Houser did that binge last fall probably seven or eight months of confusion and you know I think you know if your life has been reasonably ordinary and to have that kind of thing happen I I'm not really sure what I was looking for but I said he found comfort him in just dislocating from reality for yeah so six months a good six months yeah and then where did you find yourself I found myself in London for the first time really aged 19 and looking around wondering what London was and yeah and was I think I was still I I think the alcohol was no longer working but I was just interested in other things and I was staying with a friend I stayed on the floor I didn't know the guy I remember waking up and finding a drawing pen on the side I saw a table and some paper and it was a hot day and I went outside and drew the street and I then kept during the streets and I'd say that for four years without stopping like Forrest Gump just didn't stop running what you just just kept drawing every day with winter with everything at every most days with the walk little what went on and and I for some reason on that first week or two of drawing I asked the big questions like is there it's the regard what is what what is consciousness what are some very big questions that didn't really have any answers but it was my drawing was a way of processing the big questions and trying to work out in my head and I mean making something of the questions into drawings I don't really know what I was doing at sea but they sell them that's how I lived I passes by bought them off me and again yes enough just enough just enough to keep you going yeah and I lived in a culture did you literally lives in it yet yeah if anyone had a flat he had little coal shed and it we cleared it out and I slept in there and and I began thinking for the first time but it you know I hadn't I hated religion at least I didn't like institutional religion at all yes I thought it was toxic and dangerous and controlling and hypocritical and all those things that most people seem to feel it didn't it wasn't I couldn't trust it that it was a vignette it was like a club and nice people who weren't really who they were made out to be so I was very hostile but in the same breath I had this sense of there had to be more and I thought Jesus had had something very special about him and so I started talking to him really when I was drawing and began this strange conversation with him and bit by bit by bit he showed himself to me I think in a very very gentle way and five years on from that conversation I dared to go into a church so it took me a long time would you say that that was a moment of a an epiphany it was an epiphany in droplets yes you seem of an epiphany is like a bucket yeah being dumped on someone's head for me it was more a gentle Epiphany of drops but then gradually through the years you began to understand more no more experience more more and more and and I think that if even look at the drawings it began the drawings began and are very controlled the way architect very controlled and then the more I understood of God the looser and freer they became and then they they ended up very different but it was a reflection of what was going on inside I think you know the whole notion of freedom and grace and forgiveness and you know went from drawing buildings then I got involved in I went to I was fascinated by black American gospel music culture so I went to a lot of places where they did that yes because I thought I hadn't really you know they were expressing something that I connected with the inside and so I went and painted them Hamid Africa and New Orleans and and brought the way back in or was taken up my galleries and they'd showed my work and that's how it really began but it was definitely begun with prayers and I remember the people who bought the drawings would read these little prayers I'd written I couldn't I've had a very difficult to pray just sitting there I usually think of sex or someone's something I've forgotten to do my head was just you know so I thought the only way to pray would be to write them down because least they exist yes they physically dare it so I write it on the side of drawings I'd have the press and so when people bought and they say why have you got this strange little thing here so that's how it began and that work developed and and then I suppose my works been in various phases but that the bed went through a whole thing of doing the prodigal you have a prodigal hanging there not really for guarantee with the suspicion that I didn't really think I could be loved by God I knew it was a truth but I didn't think it was Nix - thought it was a something that you like in a lot of people I knew her Christians didn't seem to really believe it yes you know they said oh yes yes oh well I'm forgiven but actually you know it was it was it it was a rainbow they couldn't quite they didn't quite foil the truth of it no or felt that deep down they would they were the secrets of their lives are too dark and if you only knew me you know you wouldn't you might love you just look at you yes but not me and that was my experience and a lot of people so I I just wanted to try and find physical what ways of painting it and I thought the hug is it a real embrace and I read that story that man it's that moment of complete acceptance so that's all that and then so how did that come about though so during those years were you reading the Bible as well I did sort of read I like the New Testament particularly look of John yes so I was and so you're reading the parables and reading the stories yeah and I thought I thought what Jesus had to say it was extraordinary I did I really did and I found some of it quite difficult I thought it was worth feeding on and I remember on the tube trains there were I think was the Bible says there's someone I used to put up these big verses yes and I used to love those as he's immature but it's just enough to feed on you know I can't eat too much of the word yes I get sort of like little strong drops and then just chew them yeah and I remember those yeah you should there was that amazing first when I was struggling with Jamie's death and it said cast your burdens on to the Lord and He will sustain you you know he'll sustain you I remember reading that over and I'm writing and I'm thinking that's you know how does that work what does casting of burdens on him really feel like how does that sustain you know so is that one verse is enough to it to last a long time yes you know so I guess for me I'm slow I actually realized I'm very slow at understanding very slow at imbibing things but if they get into me they stay they stay yeah so like the the prodigal son but you've also done the prodigal daughter well if only the daughter was my ex-girlfriend is was is a fantastic person and she struggled with severe depression and I remember her me talking to about this the prodigal and she would say well you know it's it's a son and I'm daughter and I don't really understand what you're talking about mmm so I remember just finding myself thinking okay well I'll I'll paint this for her and see if it helps it was for her particularly Bennett yes why do audience I guess just that I'm just intrigued Charlie so take the prodigal son when you first painted that yeah how does it work for you as an artist I mean do you kind of lock yourself away what's the process what's the journey to eventually get to that point where you've done it I think it began was seeing friend of mine hugging his son and I was having lunch with him and I said can you just and I said to them can you just do that one more time and I just see you do that again yes I think he'd done something wrong and then it was just it was a strange at when they make you know and it was a moment of real kind of redemption in lunch and so I've been repeated and I just thought that symbolizes so much and even if you're not a Christian whatever you believe it's it symbolizes something that is really beautiful you know forgiveness Redemption reconciliation what have you got to call it but it symbolizes it for me so I thought you know I'd like to draw that so I doing them and then and then I painted it and I made them post me again and then I studied that well as an image what is for me the prodigal as if you just saw it happening you wouldn't know the story necessarily sure I might write summarize a story over the top of the painting yes and I thought what is the story really all about I actually looked into the store and realized that it wasn't what I thought it was it wasn't about a bad boy who decides not to be bad anymore it's I think I realized that our understanding of the story is so far from what Jesus is saying yes it's really its story to me it's really how how God sees us and it's so different to how we think he sees us you know it's about two type different types of people one who's trying to be happy by being bad and they're trying to be happy by being good and and I think it's he's Jesus saying that there's more to life than morality and doing the right thing or the wrong thing this has to be more than this and it's about the Father all about this running father so that's why I wrote anything that's I don't know why it's called a prodigal so it should really be called the running father yeah this is on the nature of God so really it was an obsession with it that that I just kind of wanted to explore which is why I went took it I took it to Brun I thought well bronze is the next step because it's it's physical yes you know you can feel people can put their hands on it and so yeah it's and I think you know friends of mine who aren't Christians dude I think when they've seen I mean I had a guy who came around to a survey on my house in Brixton and he arrived pretty aggressively on at 9:00 a.m. on a Monday morning came into the house and said insert right I'll start at the top and he disappeared I said help yourself and he came down ten minutes later and he was changed color in his face and he was tears in his eyes and said what what are you doing in your house I thought he was commenting on how disgusting it was so I said yeah it's pretty yeah and he said no what are these what these what these paintings especially that one with that father and son I said I was the prodigal son and he said to me I'm said something like he said he said that's quite hardcore isn't it come and I put it but he was hit I mean I made him a cup of tea and he said listen he said I've got a nine year old kid and I've never knocked him I don't know how to hug him and because I thought he was gonna start talking about God or something but he relates it immediately to his own son yes and then and then he just got up he said I'm gonna go and find him you left the house and I thought what about this but you know that was it so yeah there's something about that relationship father you know whether it's human or divine they're so fundamental to our existence and I think for me the if we can for a second a day or five seconds a day I think come to terms or just dare to believe that we are loved that much by God everything changes yes no matter who you are what you think you've done or it's Jesus is really saying something so so beautiful yes beyond morality and religion and anything and that's why I think I've been obsessed with it because I think it's the core of the gospel myself absolutely no definitely well then you did eventually discover Church I did so where did you end up going and how did you begin to become part of the wider Church I I went to a little tiny Church in London and where I was I was 20 in the everyone else is 65 which is fine I loved it yes you know I loved it and now is that it's a basket but I didn't really have anyone that I could you know contemporaries that I could really talk to you but I thought that's what church was I didn't think there were any yeah it was for old people before they died it was their insurance policy well we're gonna die quick let's go to church so I didn't really but I got commissioned to do a drawing by Ison when I was doing architecture I got commissioned by a company to do a drawing of a building on broad the Brompton Road in London and so it was very hot and it was the traffic was intense so I remember doing the drawing and then seeing I saw a slip road I walked up the slip road and to a church and it was open so I went and sat in it and and whoever was there was a Phil the virtuous a he's nice and he's friendly and I reckon I saw the church had an office I thought Church don't have offices they just have cloths and things and fonts offices and I found myself going there on a Sunday evening and they're about 500 people there and there was a band and I thought oh no this is just a cult it's very dangerous but it was quite fun to watch yes and I didn't speak to a soul I just observed it for a few weeks and then and then I met someone and then they invited me to tea I was suspicious that she had being drugged you know it's every single defense was there I thought you know what my money they won't dare say it won't be it but you know I was so so suspicious I think and then Nicky Gumbel came up to me and he had it's incredible afro this isn't a tea yes and he was smiling it asked me to tea so it's two of them and I got to know him and and that's really hurt began it was his French it was amazing he was very accepting and then he I did cartoons for his little bit why Jesus and I found that I had a role in the church and that I even I was odd and a bit bit prickly that they accepted me yes and bit by bit Church has become the most foundational part of my life yes community the love everything about it is imperfect and fantastically imperfect but completely vital yes you know what I mean absolutely and the church you're talking about is it's called Holy Trinity problem it is I don't I go to a little one next to it now but while you were there a charlie you obviously got the opportunity to do these cartoons for alpha you did the question mark you did all those so I think a lot of people obviously are very familiar with all those sorts of cartoons I've noticed and as you can see in our home we've got a couple of your paintings it seems that you go you're gripped by something so I have a face regarding angels so what how did that come about the Angels I think for me were a way of lots of people who's at friends and I don't believe yes anything at all and you know people in your angels are appealing I think a lot of Christianity to people is unattractive they say you know it might be true but it's unattractive so for whatever reason that may be but I saw I've like I've tried to make the invisible attractive so the unseen so you know so I see the angelic is it seeing rising I don't know but and the Holy Spirit you can't see him except in actions perhaps or an experience but so I try to paint things so the angel reads me represents the Holy Spirit yes and I did a series on the pianist in the angel yes the pianist for me was just I found I learnt a piano and struggled couldn't play the piano loved it so but it was always a fight and I so the piano to me represents just trying to live as well as you can but not achieve you know the notes wrong your keys are wrong there don't be try but the angel just correct the presence of the angel with the hands on the shoulder all round is for me the the grace of God really saying you do your bit and I'll do mine yes see what I'm saying yes so the angelic was just a really a way of me suggesting that was more to life than then you you think yes but because I'm always thinking of people who don't believe as well as I am to the believer like painting for both do you remember the time when you and I were in Rome yes we in Rome and we actually went to Rome because we decided we just wanted to go and do the wrong walk think Ray in Rome and we're having breakfast one morning and I was really gripped by the story of the Good Samaritan just the face I was just gripped with it I just trying to understand it trying to get my head around understanding it and you just took out a piece of paper and you you just drew it fun of it see all these just started painting it now cuz that was years ago well yeah but that's how slow I am no but obviously even in that conversation you the creativity got released to at least symbolize image and then obviously you'd be marinating in that and now you're beginning to yeah so are you working on something well the paintings of of the woman caught in adultery and yeah the good smarten now tell us about your big project that you're currently working on at some pause Hammersmith what is that that is what's got a tip ditch which it which is a a three-part painting painting three parts trip as in try and it's on the altar wall of a church in Hammersmith in London and each panel I think is about 21 or 22 feet high and I'm not sure how wide but yeah they're enormous it's an enormous thing I'm trying to do and sometimes get overwhelmed by it filled out of my depth feeling capable and I think sometimes it's good for you to feel that you're out of your depth because he's then start to have to rely on God and not your own natural ability so it's it's the crucifixion in the middle it's the prodigal son on the right and on the Left I haven't started is the baptism of Christ where he's he's laughing I haven't found any sort of jealousy he's up to his waist in water with his head back in his back his hands in the water um but just laughing because my mum actually you know she I said to I'm doing this years ago and she said well make sure it's joyous yes make sure it's joyous you know and so I thought well who have we ever seen Jesus really laughs your mom was so right your baptisms are Joy's although I'm next to it by next doors want one of the most tragic moments in this through the cosmos of the crucifixion so it's it's sort of these two but yeah so that paralyzed Jesus laughing and Wow do you work on your own obviously I do most the time language isn't locked in the children by ourselves myself till late at night up scaffolding with cups of tea and it's been quite a journey that actually particularly painting the crucifixion you know for some reason I'm still on his wrists and hands and have been for a while and you know processing nails skin sinew blood is a strange thing yes on such a man and it's brought all kinds of things up in me good and birth so yeah it's been a journey to say the least doing that and it's not a sort of a project you can hurry you just got to go with it you I want to hurry it because clearly it's taken as I said I'm slow at things and I think they probably want it done in the same breath processing how yes the head of Christ is plainly Michelangelo couldn't really have the guy seriously that must be also for you though getting a project done like that that will give many many people throughout many years the opportunity oh well I really hope so I mean I hope so and I like I'm a figurative paintings like I like telling stories and I like having people understand things that I've tried to understand so I'd like to involve people in a in a journey of understanding and he saw for instance the crucifixion is next to the prodigal and I think those two things are inextricably bound you know the father humiliating himself and self sacrificial love is the cross this kind of thing that they had amassed yes and to show that relationship between you know Christ bringing Redemption all these things to have them together is a real chance you know absolutely I know it so it's a real privilege I suppose sometimes at my worst I to be truthful curse it and am rude and don't want to be there and you spill my coffee on the scaffolding and burn my legs and slip and have accidents and you know I'm at what my worst probably up there times ironically painting a crucifixion but actually I think that's exactly where all I dirt has to go which I've learned I mean if you are going to befoul leave it at the cross if you see it I'm saying yes I've learned all of that but you know people so say gosh you must feel a bit feel very holy up there I think well you know I don't actually and I'm quite glad that I feel really human I often say Charlie that you know we're all guilty and and it's what we do with the guilt and some of us we deny it some of us deflect it others drown it yep but if we want to get rid of it we have to dissolve it in the blood of Jesus that's see anything it's the only place where it really is gone absolutely it doesn't otherwise it remains somewhere yeah yeah toxifying something else you're a very creative man charlie and you're also a bit of an eccentric and I gather with you're a little bit come on a little bit so inner tell us the story about you and your friend in a bath where was that what was that all about were you naked and what were you raising money for go and tell us that story okay a friend of mine lost his leg and half her legs at one of legs in South Africa and he had no money so I wanted to raise money for him and one of my best friend's a guy called bear who's a climber and this is and this is Bear Grylls yeah yeah this is a long time I mean yeah this is good a good 10 12 years ago yes and we chatted and I just said you know and I said to him I've always wanted to row up the terms in the bathtub and you know he said yeah that sounds interesting so I basically got a bath we put some stabilizers on it and and road from Twickenham right up to Greenwich in a bottle naked and how long did that take eight or nine hours and was it fun it was one of funny funniest days of my life because you know just for comments just what happened people in bridges above people laughing yeah and it was undone there tonight and they film it from above so it was one of those days of making money to help someone but also being ridiculous yes and also going back to being Adam I mean and then how is your friend now yeah he's got very he's got special legs now wonderful so he's good how do you see the future for yourself charlie absolutely no I do it for me every day as a gift I'm never quite sure when it's gonna end though I think I think but I love that every day's again we don't have aspirations though for the next season of your life or you uh yeah I would love to I would I would love to carry on painting and I'd like to be married I'd like to I'd you know I'd like to see what God has for me in terms of making images and yes I don't know really I have a sort of scary blank sheet and was a great planner of anything maybe that's a real weakness probably is everyone says of what are your plans you need plans I don't essentially have them I just think today has enough cares of its own and I will live today in tomorrow let's see I don't know I just have to pray your way don't you yeah Charlie is an absolute delight always you

Channel: Facing the Canon

Views: 25,461

Rating: 4.8987341 out of 5

Keywords: facing the canon, facing, the, canon, charlie, mackesy, charlie mackesy, interview, j.john, jjohn, j john, philo trust, philo, trust, Jesus, Christian, Christ, Bible, Lord, God, Christianity, Artist, Illustrations, Prodical, artist

Id: Kk7DjZNqCl8

Length: 29min 12sec (1752 seconds)

Published: Mon Feb 11 2013