EXPOSED: The SATANIC Rituals of Scientology & Charles Manson

the most dangerous thing about Munson is that he believed he was The Reincarnation of Jesus he actually enacted the crucifixion in front of his followers Anson came to believe he was Jesus because of Scientology [Music] John what can you tell me about the foundations of Scientology in in Black Magic and crazy things like that the Curious saying that people are involved in Scientology unless they pay very very close attention might have any idea that Ron Hubbard Lafayette Ronald Hubbard the founder of Scientology was actually deeply involved in magic and he you know as I say if they pay close attention that there is there is some 1952 lectures where you know if you sat and listened to Ron Hubbard for six weeks you ended up with a doctorate which is pretty good isn't it it's a lot easier than the other ways of getting a doctorate and this is called the Philadelphia doctorate course and in these lectures um he spoke about Alistair Crowley being his I think was a very good friend they never actually met um and Crowley thought that that he was a confidence trickster that's what Crowley said but he also he defends Crowley's practices in in that lecture or sorry in one of those lectures and we find that digging back a little further in 1946 Ron Hubbard was involved with a magical ceremony within the crowley-ite tradition with a man called Jack Parsons now Parsons was one of the founders of jet propulsion Laboratories um at the California Institute of Technology he was the inventor of solid fuel for Rockets without which the moon landings would not have been possible so he's quite an eminent if not preeminent figure and um he was deeply into Crowley's magic and so in January 1946 on his terminal leave from the Navy now of course Hubbard tells us that he was crippled and blinded at the end of World War II he also elsewhere tells us that he beat up three Petty officers on the 25th of July 1945. so there's a little bit of a paradox there as to how he did it a Scientologist once explained to me and said it's obvious he had two bodies no one of the bodies was crippled and blinded in Oak Knoll hospital and the other was beating up Petty officers um and you know whatever but the reality is that however crippled and blinded he was when he was on his terminal leave he went and stayed um at Jack Parsons House in Pasadena in Los Angeles and they performed what has become a very famous ritual called The Babylon working because Aleister Crowley couldn't spell the word Babylon and so put an A in it and we have Babylon and Jack Parsons actually made a disc recording of these ceremonies and published the transcripts so we have the whole ceremony um I think I was the first person to realize that this ceremony is the eighth degree of the Odo Temple orientus the Oto which was the magical group that that Crowley inherited before the first world war it's actually a German organization its sister group and this does get elaborate the tool group actually contained five senior members of the Nazi party and who practiced ritual magic of a similar type so that's kind of interesting um you know including um Himmler the founder of the SS and indeed the SS went through magical rituals and saw another subject we might talk about one day but far too much time looking at this stuff but can I just ask about just to go back a bit just for people who don't know about what magic is in this sense because it's got a K on the end why has it got a K on the end and who is Aleister Crowley for just those who don't know fair enough as I say Alistair Crowley couldn't spell very well so not only Babylon Babylon but magic magic and um to give it its full title it's Sex Magic I don't know if if YouTube will allow us to use the word sex anymore but it is a perfectly normal thing that consenting adults do what can I say um so Crowley had come out of a he was an Englishman who um was called the wickedest man in the world by the that great Authority the news of the World newspaper and that title sort of stuck with him he was also on Adolf Hitler's Hit List Crowley that when they took Britain though he was one of the people to be rounded up and shot um so it obviously was quite annoying um and he'd been involved with um a guy called McGregor Mathers um and in a group called the Golden Dawn and um which the poet WB Yates was also involved with and they performed magical rituals um rituals were basically set to gain power over um disembodied souls and you know people think about magic in the kind of Disney sense that you have these little spells and enchantments and all this but ritual magicians very often historically use um or believe they're using discarnate spirits that they then load with some horrible idea that they then thrust at somebody else Alistair Crowley is the most famous ritual Magician of the 20th century um and you know so to make it really clear this is not magic in the sense of Darren Brown and Conjuring this is Magic in the sense of believing that you can control other people through intention now this is very important to understanding Scientology because Scientology is totally about controlling other people through your intention you're meant to achieve this state the operating thetan state where you can intend something to happen and it will happen and so if you want somebody to fall in love with you they will fall in love with you if you want somebody to give you a load of money they will give you a load of money um but what Hubbard was doing was a with part of Jack Parsons in 1946 was a great deal more Sinister than this they were trying to Incarnate um the Antichrist fundamentals wow the Scarlet woman who's spoken about in The Book of Revelation of Saint John the Divine the last book of the Gospels and this is the destroyer of mankind and that's what they were after and um it it ended badly Hubbard ran off with Jack Parson's girlfriend who was also Jack Parson's sister-in-law this gets very confusing and Hubbard managed to convince Parsons to give him all of his savings 1946 this was 35 000 dollars and he goes off to Florida to start a business which I think he called Allied Enterprises something like that and starts buying yachts and the Parsons actually wrote of a little book about these escapades in his attempt to get his money back and and he didn't get his money back um he did he won a court case in Florida against Herbert but he didn't get his money back and I think that's a common place for people who dealt with Runner but you don't get your money back yeah so yeah something that you've you've just you've said is really interesting I'm just thinking about what it was about this time you were talking about trying to control other people Scientology was founded in 1953 I've Just Seen MK Ultra from the government was also 1953 I suppose we could we could tell people what you know some people might not know what that is the same year what was it about that sort of time that was there a fear of a loss of control people wanted to be able to control other people I think that that's true and in the military intelligence community they'd seen um the minzeki trial particularly in stalinist Russia but they've seen The Purge trials in the 30s and it appeared that the Russians had taken the techniques of Ivan Pavlov and learned how to make people behave as as robots the reality of the stalinist purges is is a lot simpler they said if you don't say these things on the witness stand we'll talk to your children to death yeah but yeah the American Community thought and then in 1949 Mao Zedong releases his thought reform program the re-education program which um we saw again in xinjiang a few years ago and millions of Chinese people were put through camps and we learned the word brainwashing from the Chinese sinull meaning to wash brain and this there was a paranoia the the fear that communism was going to take over which was a very rational fear you know Stalin did move right the way through Eastern Europe China fell um so you know it the the world under communism with somebody like Stalin or Mazi dung in charge would have been a very horrible place so one can understand that the American Military found themselves in the situation where there was no other force in the world that could resist Russia and China and they were sold on the idea that they had to develop mind control techniques and this is the other element of Scientology you've got one element which is uh supernaturalism and the parallels with Crowley are incredible when you look into them I um well 30 years ago I wrote a paper called possible Origins for Dianetics and Scientology which I think is one of my finest titles and um it's stimulating and stirring in it and in there I show that there are tens of ideas that Scientology borrows directly from Crowley and Hubbard of course referenced the book they come from so he was aware of it um it's a book called Magic in theory and practice um so that's one element and the other element is mind control and Hubbard would say you know we can brainwash faster than the Russians and it's total Amnesia in 20 or 30 seconds and he's boasting about this two scientologists we can use this system as a brainwashing system and it runs alongside the supernaturalism and of course curiously the CIA went the same way that after they'd spent years torturing and persecuting thousands of innocent people in the attempt to find out how to completely control somebody they then switched over to the spoonbender program which your friend John Ronson talked about in The Men Who steric goats which later became a movie of a MK Ultra MK Ultra MK Naomi operation bluebird there are hundreds literally hundreds of projects that were under the umbrella of these those things and let me put in that that last week um my dear friend Alan shefflin passed away and he wrote uh co-wrote the mind manipulators in 1978 one of the there were two books Walter boat was the other that came out at the same time that exposed these programs and and that book still a really remarkable piece of work so what Hubbard is doing his his own beliefs are never made fully evident to Scientology which is fairly typical for cult leaders you know they they don't want you to know what they're really thinking because what they're really thinking is I'm going to control and enslave you and you're going to give me all your money and do everything I want and that's not usually the tagline for a cult group you know they they they don't usually advertise that tremendously said first read Crowley's book of the law which is a tiny and weird little tract when he was 16 years old so that would have been in 1927 I was able to find that he'd belonged to the ancient and mystical order of the rosy cross the amok rosicrucians by writing to them and asking them and I happen to have picked the right one and they said yeah he did the first two neophyte degrees so he was very interested in the Supernatural and things magical and then with Parsons made this attempt to pretty much incarnate the devil if we skip on to the end so we can bracket this the very last thing we have from Hubbard was an issue that was on the highest and most secret level of Scientology which is operating thetan level eight and this was not released until two years after Hubbard died he was not not that stupid um to to let people get this and it's meant to be this is when you'll become at cause over physiological and physical matter energies Basin time so you'll be able to make planets explode and um you know get to the front of the queue in the supermarket and you know make people bend your will this is what was promised and had been promised throughout Scientology this was always the aim you'd be able to leave your body and make things happen at will um never happened dealt with more than a thousand scientologists and have pleaded with them to do anything at all you know it's usually I'd give a talk and I'd put a little bit of tin foil on the table and say if that moves at all during the talk then I will believe that scientologists really do have superpowers well hang on hang on because I interviewed a Scientologist called Katie Lowman who's still in Scientology and I'll put an end screen for those watching on YouTube at the end so you can click through to that and she says that Tom Cruise who we know is OT 8 right I think at least o27 but we think ot8 visited her in a dream to recruit her so what do you say to that clear evidence John that that's absolute proof and I have to um you know take away the 40 years of work I've done on this subject you've got me there Andrew yeah and and how many body how many books she genuinely believes that yeah and how many bodies did Tom Cruise have at the time um three bodies one more than Ron Herbert so at the very end they issue this thing in 1988 and there is a bulletin on it at the beginning of it that they have to very quickly remove and so it's only there for a week but because the number of scientologists who've been waiting for years for this wonderful new level they come along and they find this thing and in it Hubbard says that he's the Antichrist and Lucifer so 1946 trying to Incarnate the Antichrist 1988 done and dusted he is the Antichrist at the same time as claiming that you can be a Christian and a Scientologist which is a little bit of a of a paradox you know so I guess one of the things with Scientology that a lot of people who only have like a passing knowledge uh make the mistake of is they think Lord zinu you find out about Lord Xeno and Lord zinu must be the god of Scientology whereas he's actually the antagonist isn't he and the idea is that that these thetans were brainwashed these are the things inside all of us or whatever to believe in Christianity and all of these religions when really they should be going after you know they should believe in Scientology so Christianity is the enemy of Scientology so it sort of makes sense that he's the Antichrist oh absolutely and and he always was I you know that um there is evidence that through the early years of Scientology he was still practicing ritual magic through the 1950s the evidence is a bit difficult because it comes from his eldest son El Ron Hubbard Jr uh commonly known as nibs and nibs twice to my knowledge signed Declarations of perjury so we have to be very careful with what he said but having examined it very thoroughly I'm pretty sure that that his Recollections where he talks about things he experienced are true what's not true in the narrative is where he repeats what his father had told them and it wasn't true when he was told it so one of the things that nib said that there's an incredible manuscript which has not been published and and I hope that one day it will be I have a copy of it um called the telling of Me by me written by nibs Hubbard and in this he he makes a variety of claims which I think are probably true saying that from the age of 16 his father was completely taken with ritual magic and that he considered himself to be Crowley's successor the Beast 666 the Antichrist Lucifer whichever negative character you want and Scientology is it's a Looking Glass everything in it is the opposite of what it seems it claims that it's going to liberate you and make you self-determined but it's pretty clear that to be self-determined you're going to have to do exactly what Ron Hubbard says so you'll be able to think for yourself as long as you agree completely with Ron Hubbard and because you can't disagree with him it's you know you can't go along and say well this bit of Scientology is wrong even if you have evidence when you and I had this experience when I was involved it's 40 years ago since I was involved that I would say well look he says one thing here and he contradicts it here and you'd be told that you'd have to work that out for yourself and that you couldn't take the more recent thing as being true and there were you know Scientology is replete with contradictions but you can't question them because to become self-determined you have to believe everything you're told so you know it in between those dates 1946 1988 I would of course died in 1986. in between those times Hubbard continues to practice Magic but Scientology becomes the ritual um and we became that there's again in that same Philadelphia doctorate course Hubbard admits the truth and I think the most important truth about scientology he says everything's a game life is a game you know we're just playing a game we're just Spiritual Beings will be absolutely fine nothing can harm us in any way we are perpetual and eternal and so we're just playing a game and then again there are pieces and the pieces mustn't know what the rules of the game are and then there are the players and the players are to keep the rules of the game away from the pieces so the player at the moment is David miscavige the pieces are everybody else in Scientology that he is keeping away from them the real rules what's really going on but then Herbert says then there is the game maker and the game maker doesn't have to follow the rules and he's he's the game maker and he didn't follow the rules you know he didn't follow any of the rules that he laid down um so at the heart of this and the most Central thing is within the Crowley light system you have what's called a holy guardian angel and this is the idea that everybody has this what the Romans would call a tutelary Divinity uh the the word we have from Latin is genius um which is the name for the this little being that comes into being to look after you through your life and Hubbard believed very deeply in this uh I interviewed a woman in 1984. Joe Scott and she'd been his secretary in London in 1954 and and she was great and she said um he'd turn around to me one day and he said you know the book Dianetics the mental science of Modern Health sorry the modern science of mental health he said I wrote that in three weeks it was automatic writing dictated by the empress 30 years later this woman said to me what was he talking about and I said I think I can fill you in there's a guy called AJ Burks who was a major in the Marines down at Paris Island he was a major pulp writer he wrote more pulp stories than Hubbard did Peru about 800. and he and Hubbard were friends and he was a kind of mentor to Herbert and as far as I can tell he was not a bad human being but he had this idea that there are all of these little beings which he called the little its all all around us and he said in his autobiography which is called monitors and monitors are like holy Guardian Angels this idea that you've got somebody that's looking over your shoulder and he said that that when the redhead visited him and he identifies Hubbard you know it's Hubbard he's talking about because he talks about it being a barnstorming pilot and other claims I've been made that the redhead could see the little it's he could have them jumping between his fingers and stuff like this and the redhead told him Ron Hubbard told him that he was never frightened when he was flying a glider because he could see the empress on the wing and the empress is has long flowing red hair and a green dress so I you know I got little bits and pieces story from all over and put it together the empress um there is a place where Herbert in a book called dynastics The Evolution of a science says that he used automatic writing as one of his techniques so that confirmed what Joe Scott had said if we look to those same Philadelphia doctorate course lectures he talks about the fool being the highest aspiration the fall in the Tarot deck being the highest aspiration of mankind that you can get to a point where nothing will hurt you everything will pass through you and you won't care now he's taking this from the book of Thoth by Aleister Crowley he refers to the full card as having an alligator snapping at the heels of the Fall nearly all tarot decks have a dog the Crowley deck has an alligator and we then get into this and we find the empress card in the Tarot deck um we go full circle Crowley says that the empress is hathor at this situation there was a case in in Los Angeles in 1984 involving my dear friend Jerry Armstrong and documents were put into this case which had come out of Hubbard's private archive collection which Armstrong had gathered and among them there was a document called the blood ritual which is referred to in the transcripts of the case somewhere in the early 1990s the man who'd been hired by Scientology as Hubbard's biographer Omar Garrison and then paid hundreds of thousands of dollars not to publish his book suddenly arrived on my doorstep he'd flown over from the U.S without making an appointment knocked to my door and there he was and he said they keep kicking my door down to try and take back all this material I have about Hubbard I want them to stop doing this so I've come to England and I'm going to tell them that I've met John asack and I'm going to give him all the documents if anything happens again I presume nothing happened after that because he never contacted me again but he said and to prove good faith I'm going to show you this document you cannot copy it you cannot write it down but this was a blood ritual the thing that had been mentioned in court and this was a deal handwritten Hubbard document a deal between Ron Hubbard and the Egyptian goddess hathor and the Egyptian goddess hathor um is basically publicly seen as as a spotted cow that feeds Humanity among magicians like Aleister Crowley and Crowley writes about this she is called the destroyer of mankind this is the empress this is who Ron Hubbard worshiped in credi was keen on Crossing between mythologies he wasn't particularly good at it either but let's not get into into that so hathor in the Greek system would be Artemis in the Roman system it would be Diana and so he calls one of his daughters Diana and he calls his first subject dianetics um there was a crowley-ite group called dionism at the same time so we start getting this elaborate web of ideas that Hubbard was seeking to basically control Humanity and he did I think scientology's methods of psychological enslavement still haven't been beaten you know even Nexium which got seriously bad and stole a lot from Scientology Scientology is incredibly difficult to undo and once people have been immersed in it they can walk away and think they're done with it but you have to actually you have to actually look at it you have to actually see what you've come to believe and question those beliefs carefully because they're very dangerous you know the ideas within Scientology you sent me this fascinating fact net report about Hubbard and the Occult and one part you've said here Scientology is using many Hollywood celebrities to promote its agenda but most scientologists celebrity and non-celebrity alike as well as the general public are ignorant of the satanic black magic background of its founder and how he used these materials to form the core of his secret Sacred Scriptures is it really possible that you can get like let's say Tom Cruise ot8 you're spending hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars you've done countless studying and all these things and still have no awareness that this is all based around black magic and and all that kind of stuff absolutely and and a lot of it speak because he kind of rephrases magic um that where Crowley would talk about Thelma or the will um Hubbard will talk about intention and you start sort of finding that um sort of scrolling down here to find some of the the Crowley quotes and the puppet and the Occult um I thought you were having an epiphany you looked like you were looking at with an epiphany into the distance but it was actually the the screen you're looking at yeah um yes so uh what what Hubbard describes as the operating fate and the spirit who is in charges are they an exterior outside of the body can have but doesn't have to have a body in order to control or operate thought life matter energy space and time and so we find that um you know parallel ideas so you know an essential idea of Scientology is is past lives now as you know from our last conversation I'm working on a book about Charles Manson and his involvement with Scientology and I'm truly shocked when I came to this and started reading about I thought well you know Scientology had some slight influence on mance and it's important that people know about that but having narrowed a dozen books including five accounts by former members of the family and watched lots of interviews it's very evident that Charles Manson never stopped practicing Scientology and wow probably the most dangerous thing about Munson the thing that that made everything happen is that he believed he was The Reincarnation of Jesus he talked about being man son the son of man he actually enacted the crucifixion as realistically as possible in front of his followers while they were tripping on LED more than once so Manson had this idea and I'm kind of going well where did he get this idea so okay 1961 62 14 months he's studying Scientology with a man called lania Rhema who had a professional qualification in Scientology um and part of this would be past life regression so I am pretty confident that Manson came to believe he was Jesus because of Scientology because of scientology's practices now to fit that into Crowley Crowley said there is no more important task than the expiration of one's previous incarnations so past lives which is the term Crowley used and the term Hybrid used is extremely important to the the subject yeah um it's pretty good it's pretty remarkable a lot of this I mean to what extent did Hubbard really do you think he had this kind of cognitive dissonance where he because the reason I asked this guy I think I think in the public perception of Elven Hubbard the founder of Scientology they imagine a snake oil salesman who said you know was a Sci-Fi writer and said if you want to make a if you want to make a Be A Millionaire wasn't it you would just make a religion yeah is there a sort of split brain where the other part of his brain still actually really believes in all of this Lucifer and uh Xenu and and Blackmagic stuff I I think that he yeah that he was trying to kill himself that's the first thing this is a man who was Ill all of his life um he he got out of seeing combat in World War II by claiming he had ulcers it's interesting that the x-rays never showed any ulcers but he talked for many years in the 50s about Terror stomach so he was a man who was in a state of panic um he had asthma he was quite badly short-sighted he smoked a hundred cigarettes a day and founded a drug rehabilitation group um yeah we can stop your addiction no problem um he was a and and he had these enthusiasms so he would come along and when you read the list of things that he said he could cure using his therapeutic system he suffered from all of them you know short-sightedness asthma bursitis in his shoulder and spent a lifetime never actually dealing with them but what he did do was what faith healers do that that you you get a kind of hypomanic or manic State you know a high-state a euphoric state where you feel great and there's an adrenaline surge which of course has endorphins on the back of it so you're really high and you can get up out of your wheelchair and walk but after about three days there's a collapse what in Scientology is called a roller coaster and Hubbard experienced this pretty much every winter he had bronchial pneumonia so 1965 is about a bronchial pneumonia which he thought was going to kill him gave us the sorry 1964s gave us the clearing course 1966 bronchial pneumonia gave us ot3 the Xenu and the body fatens and all of this stuff and then in 7677 somewhere there bronchial pneumonia gave us the ot5 which was originally called New Era Dianetics for operating thetans which is a little bit of a mouthful um so I think but I don't think there's a split I think this is the idea of doubling which the brilliant Robert J lifton puts forward with the Nazi doctors the idea that you know the gangster looks so frightening with his Luger in his hand but when he gets home to his children he's a family man to put it in the words of Mick Jagger um very great philosopher of our time I think um because that is that's a possible way of looking at it but I don't think Hubbard was doubled I think he was bipolar and I think he got too high and thought that he was you know a an absolute genius who could solve all problems and then he got too low and I've done many interviews with people who saw him when he was kind of crying and cowering in bed and and saying what a failure he was so I think that it depended on which part of the manic depressive cycle he was in what he believed and it is true that you know one of the tests for depression is if you say to somebody uh give me five happy memories and if they're truly depressed they'll go I can't think of anything because we see through a gray lens when when we're distressed um again with somebody who's in hypomania that false happiness if you say think of five sad memories they won't be able to do it so that you know with him he was moving through the cycle all the time you know right right from and also probably impacted by temporal lobe epilepsy in which you don't have fits or seizures that can be seen But the 18 characteristics of the bear video temporal lobe epilepsy symptoms he had all 18 of those symptoms um one of which is hypergraphia that you can't stop writing well he's in the Guinness Book of World Records as the most prolific writer in history so I think we can tick that one but another is this sense of um incredible deep perception of the universe that things are more reality is more real for a certain period of time to such people um and you know I think probably quite a lot of spiritual practices have been started by people who are temporal epileptics and in these states he he talks you know he he said he saw the empress you know this wasn't something he dreamed he actually saw and conversed with the empress and set about making himself the Beast that you know and there are all sorts of other claims because he claims to be material or Mateo the future Buddha who will save all of humanity and I think we can say that that's not true because we're not in Nirvana and he's dead so but yeah there are all sorts of claims and they are largely magical claims about having supernatural abilities and being able to do things which of course he never managed to do does Scientology have any teachings or beliefs that resonate with the Christian concepts of the end days and you know and how might they be interpreted by followers well it's interesting that both Scientology and the Manson cult are founded by people who use the Book of Revelation as a kid was brought up as a literalist Christian um the Hubbard flirts with it you know so from time to time you know when Dianetics came out it was going to be a race the history was going to be a race between catastrophe and Dianetics is what was said so you've got this kind of apocalyptic idea he buys into the nuclear fear rise writes a book in the 50s called All About radiation in which he misunderstands physics profoundly but you know let's not get into that in it was 1977 when I was still involved we suddenly got this bulletin saying I want scientologists to survive World War III and I interviewed a guy who was um in 1981 was on the 14-member Watchdog Committee in charge of Scientology and he said that Hubbard had sent them uh what was called an advice which said um everybody's going to die the only people I can say were you 14 people which in fact inspired this young man who was 18 at the time and in the governing body of Scientology inspired him to leave because he said well if if my mum and dad and my sister are going to die I want to be with them when it happens I you know I don't want to be with these 13 other people on the Watchdog committee so there is an apocalyptic tinge but but nothing quite as strange as um the book of the secrets of Enoch or the revelation of Saint John the Divine how how do uh some of the well even the beginning stories about Xeno are there any sort of any of these stories that you think relates to or are based on or inspired by some of the traditional occult or those kinds of teachings I I think he does you know he's a Storyteller and he he makes a cosmology I I was surprised when it came to write like Sally's people a piece of blue sky um I sort of went well what's the cosmology of Scientology what do scientologists believe I can't there's no clear statement you know we've got the most prolific author in history who's telling us that logic means you've got to determine the importance of ideas you've got to prioritize ideas and he never did it so I think that blue sky has the only cosmology of Scientology which pulls pieces from all over the place in Scientology say well this is what Hubbard seems to have believed and hey you know I think that if there is genius and perhaps cunning's the better word for it that Hubbard promised us what we want so we want to be super powerful we want to be resilient against all emotional disaster and catastrophe and so he said you're all super beings you're all gods fundamentally and I'm going to release your Godlike powers what is incredible is is that the kind of you know consistency principle the sunk cost fallacy of throwing good money after bad that having done a Scientology course that didn't make you a supernatural you know a superhero that you'll still go on to the next course and you know so seeing people go through all of these courses and become you know bitter and distressed and defensive and you know aggressive about anybody that wants to have a an evidence-based conversation with them you know that's not listening not listening you know these are people who are at the very basic level of Scientology have become communication releases whereby according to the sacred scripture of Scientology they can communicate freely with anyone on any subject but you go up to them and say look here is Ron Hubbard saying this about Aleister Crowley and that I don't want to know don't want to know so it it really is an incredible tangle that that eventuates and so what Hubbard has done is he's created slaves he's created people to worship him and I you know I back in Blue Sky which was originally published in 1990 um I speculated that Hubbard wanted to become a god following Traditions that you'll find in China and in Rome in ancient Rome whereby you become a God by being remembered and there's a 1938 letter that he wrote to his first wife that I was not meant to have a copy of and I did get a copy of and he says that his only goal is to smash his name into history that's it that's all he wanted and yeah we then find that when he left 648 million dollars that he'd built scientologists out of because none of this came from his fiction titles they lost money this is all 600 and that's what he left he'd spent more than that probably um 500 million dollars went to the Church of spiritual technology and all it's there for is initially to perpetuate the name elrond Hubbard to make sure that Ron Hubbard is remembered and I'm quite happy about that I think we should remember him Le Stalin Mao Zedong you know uh all of the horrible people of History should be remembered so so that we we don't get pulled into the you know the same difficulties again yeah I I think so as well uh always remember always discuss these things um it's it's quite Shakespearean as well this idea that if I have to die despite you know he was obviously obsessed L1 Hubbard with uh living living longer curing his illnesses and all of these things but also obsessed with finding a way to live beyond uh the the temporal realm and that was what you know Shakespeare was really into as well I hope my writing Will Survive and those kinds of things it will it will survive longer than me but um so long lives this and this gives life to thee the the closing lines of sonnet 18 the brilliant sonnet 18. yeah what a narcissist but he was right Rembrandt used to say I'm the greatest painter in the world and you go well I wish you wouldn't say it but you are right you know well he was Shakespeare was right I suppose but only in a really abstract sense that like he lives on in his words or he lives on and he was obsessed wasn't he in the sonnets with either his writing or or a child or some boy or that had met like someone would live on and that would mean he lives on but he didn't live on really and I don't think you can no except it of course I think it was Eric Erickson the psychiatrist who said there are five routes to immortality the first of them is is spiritual the second is your children the third is your ideas the fourth is your monuments and the fifth is your chemicals but those are the things that will live on Beyond you so the idea of immortality gained through a monument to an artistic work or through an idea is probably valid um especially if you're not too obsessed with with the idea of living forever and lighting up the sky with your Fame um sorry you're the singer you know you could sing that for us um people won't know that reference because we were talking before we started recording about the guy with my name who was a singer but he died and I think that brought um but you live on you live on you live on so yeah you are the continuation I'm too cold yeah priest said that spoke to his widow oh and and was she surprised when you said hey this is Andrew gold she I think I get confused for him you know on Twitter as happens with names and things and she still uses his old Twitter account to sort of go through it and respond to fans and things which is quite sweet really and so we had a little back and forth which was interesting just for those who don't know Andrew gold wrote thank you for being a friend I don't want you to click and research him because the more you do uh not that I want to compete with someone who's passed away but the more you do the the longer it will take for me to surpass him on the front first page of Google so you know I've told you all you need to know really yes don't don't check that at all and and you could of course follow the great Donald Trump's example and have the real Andrew gold on Twitter the real land of God that would be sending a a message of you know attack to the dead Andrew gold unfortunately yeah but he can't get you he can't get you no he can't it would it would be a bit much though he was speaking before about how defensive scientologists are about these things you've been speaking about you know they just won't want to hear it don't want to hear it what would happen if you went up to Tom Cruise and said listen mate you you your whole religion is founded on um Satanic rituals and things how might he respond he'd bite you in the knees he's not very big yeah um he he would probably jump over a couch and say that he's better qualified than any medical doctor to treat illness or something like that uh it it it's it's called cognitive dissonance and it's the most researched idea in Psychology and yet you know and we hear the term but it's very important if somebody disagrees with us the stronger their evidence is the stronger our belief becomes and you know this is the thing you're not left Scientology and and I you know left the mother cult and was involved with setting up the so-called independent movement and then went this is nonsense and then I spent years 12 years talking with people who've been involved in Scientology and it took me about seven years to really get hold of how you get round the cognitive dissonance how you can sit down with somebody had one guy that morning he had given his success story on his Scientology course now fantastic it was and in the afternoon I brought him to think about what he'd been involved with and he decided to leave um so it's really difficult because we think that logic will do it we think that evidence will do it it doesn't you know there are a series of stats what does well you first of all have to create some sort of Rapport where the person is willing to talk with you now Scientology kind of by telling everybody not to talk to John attack they kind of spoiled the game eventually um but once you get the person to talk to you the thing I would do and you know and I spoke with hundreds of people probably now about 600 people in in their recovery from Scientology but some of those people at the beginning of that Journey were Fanatics and I knew that I would only get a day with them you know nowadays with cell phones you don't even get that um and it's something I stopped doing in like 1995. um because it's just too stressful being harassed all the time you know um but to be able to sit down with somebody and first of all get on side with them so say that yeah they're murmured hired me to to talk with them and I took on this kind of work so that I could talk for free with other people so you know of the 600 people that I've helped in recovery only two of them gave me any money and so I hope the rest of them are watching and and we'll start going we ought to send him some money you know that's not really fair is it um but I funded that work and all the other work I did by doing interventions um and the thing was to get into the room and to get on side with the person so they wouldn't know I was John ATAC the evil suppressive who has outstripped zinu by far um they just have this guy who was there who was friendly and my opening line and it took me a little while to get to it was going with their mum and a lot of people who do interventions that the whole family and everybody they can find in I would take one person in because I'm not there to control the person that's called milia control by Robert J lifton I'm there to get them give them information they don't have and allow them a safe space in which to consider that information and make a decision I'm very happy to say that everybody who talked to me decided that he didn't want to be involved with Scientology anymore so I'm quite pleased about that quite smoky in fact about that um but the first statement would be your mum or whoever believes you've been brainwashed by a cult I'm here to help you explain the reality to her and from that starting point I would feel patronized I'd feel I'd feel like I know what you're doing here John come on you you've been hired by my mum to come and talk to me I know what you're up to yeah but you're a deeply suspicious person so normal people don't don't have have your problem um it didn't fail um and and they may have felt patronized they may have felt but but it got me into the room in a sentence and that was the thing and I then show them a video which is on my channel called captive Minds hypnosis and Beyond which has great early 1980s huge lapels in it and Wild Hair um but the content is extremely good and they sit and watch that Scientology is not mentioned in it and so they'd feel safe and it is that it's creating a an environment that's comfortable for the person and letting them know the reality which is I'm their Advocate I'm not there to change anybody's mind not not bothered I'm there to give them information and they can then come to a decision and in every case but one that worked one case where it didn't um we run out of time and we we drove we in Eastbourne of all places we drove up to East grinstead where I was still living at the time and when we got out of the car and this young woman was really not quite convinced and I wasn't quite sure what to say because I'd shown at the fair game law about tricking lying suing and destroying people and she was yeah you have to do that to people who are trying to stop scientologists okay and then we get out of the car and there are two car loads of scientologists and people with video cameras and she just looked at went all right I'm done so sometimes they're helpful but but generally get you get in there and you then have to establish Authority which is to say I know more about scientology than they do I mean you know had had one situation where I sat with a guy and I said did he know about the Hubbard archives and he said no which is surprising they should know about it um been collected since what 1981. um and did he know yeah and I said there are a lot of things that scientologists don't know I've decided and I was quite open about this that I don't want to do any more Scientology because I'm interested in the history in the background of Scientology now and did he know for example that Hubbard's eldest son Quentin by Mary Sue Hubbard who was named as Hubbard's successor from a very early time he was going to take Scientology over did he know that although he got the highest level of Scientology Class 12 auditor and uh ot7 at that time that that he was a gay and had B committed suicide and that thought was enough you know half an hour in fact I was in with with uh some other people who are doing and doing interventions and I was quite new to their way of doing things and the guy hauled me off he's like you're going too fast you're going too fast and they sat there with the mother of the Father the sister the sister's boyfriend all watching the television watching this captive minds thing and this young man was looking at the floor and I was the only one paying attention to him and he looked up at me and he said did he really commit suicide and at that point you know that the cognitive dissonance Has Broken that somebody is accepted that I'm truthful and I you know I that time used to carry four bankers boxes of documents with me when I was talking to people so I could show somebody say look this is where Hubbard said this you know here's the contrary statement you know crippled and blind at the end of World War II beat up three three Petty officers he also said in the magazine interview that he had no war wounds you know but um he's not necessarily trustworthy Runner but I found so you establish Authority and you are then in this strange situation where that Europe I'm a kind of library and you know or encyclopedia and people can ask me questions and they will they'll come up with the things they've always bothered them why do they wear sailor suits why does it cost so much money why is there so much shouting involved you know um those sort of things yeah yeah and that's how you get them out I mean it's a remarkable thing it must be a quite a nice feeling for you having left yourself being able to bring people out yes but but the being steamrollered by The Cult at the same time you know it was horrific I I you know my health went I lost a five-bedroom house that's now worth three quarters of a million pounds um we had a 30 000 pound mortgage on it um our marriage came apart you know and Friends started attacking me because Scientology has a you know they penetrate your friend Network and start telling little stories about you um it was really it was it was it was not a you know there's it was the best of times it was the worst of times no it was the worst times but yeah there's a satisfaction and particularly years later where um you know I've been contacted in the last couple of weeks by somebody I haven't seen for 40 years and um he's told me you know he's had a successful life since escaping from Scientology and that that's that's the buzz that one of the best things I ever had I had a letter from a woman who said um you won't remember me and I didn't she said 15 years ago and it's more than 15 years ago I got the letter 15 years ago I spent an afternoon with you and my life was in complete chaos because of Scientology and I just want to say that I'm happily married I have a successful career and I have children and I put that down to what happened on that afternoon and you know I'm I'm a catalyst it's I didn't do anything I didn't perform any magic trick but I listened to you know what was happening in her world and pointed out that the way in which Scientology was negatively influencing her and so yeah that that is that's great when when somebody you know recognizes that their life benefited from from something that you did yeah yeah that that's happiness that's what it's about yeah that's yeah I think it's happiness I think that's what it's about like purpose and and helping others to fulfill roles and to leave vicious Cults as it's it's really something John where do you want to send people today where can what should they go and watch and and do well if if they want to know more about the magic then there's a chapter called his magical career in my book let's sell these people a piece of Blue Sky uh on my channel my YouTube channel John attack family and friends um there's a a piece called Hubbard and the occult um which is what we've been referring to today which I was surprised I reread it before sending it to you and I oh I didn't know that so many little facts you know and um that but you can find me reading it out on camera on my channel um or if you just look up have it in the occult um what I'm touting today is we've released an audio book um of a little booklet called Scientology The Cult of greed which has what I consider to be the most important information about scientology but presented in a way that should be accessible to anybody you know where whether or not they've had The Misfortune of encountering Scientology before so that's available as a book and ebook and an audio book on ACX through Amazon go check it out people's and support my lovely guest John who's been on the show so many times many of you already know him already keep watching this channel there'll be some things that we've talked about popping above above my head I think the previous thing with John as well about Charles Manson and hit the like button I think it helps it all spread out but yeah keep on watching

Channel: Andrew Gold

Views: 380,542

Keywords: andrew gold, on the edge with andrew gold, on the edge, podcast, interviews, scientology, cults, black magic, Charles Manson, Tom Cruise

Id: 31WjP6XaaAs

Length: 58min 0sec (3480 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 07 2023