Expert AI as a Healthcare Superpower

foreign [Music] I'm the founding General partner of the a16z bio and health fund and I'm Mark Andreessen the co-founder of a16c mark thank you so much for joining us yeah it's great to be here yeah so you know you famously wrote about software eating the world and that was basically what 10 plus years ago yeah and actually that very much seems to have come to fruition if you look at all these other industries that software really wasn't a part of software's actually become a dominant part but actually this year's been kind of an amazing year for another type of software for AI and I'm curious to sort of talk about the Arc of what we think is going to happen in the future based on what we've seen in the past and and really how this new technology is going to change everything much like we've seen software change the last 10 years I'm curious what you think for just like this year it's been kind of an amazing year it always seem like not much happens in any given year but 2022 seems to have been an amazing year for AI right also Vladimir Lenin uh yes once said yes um there are decades in which nothing happens um and then there are weeks in which decades happen yes um and uh let's not hope that happens politically anymore um but uh it does happen you know in science and technology it does happen there are sort of moments where things kind of hit critical mass um and uh you know this the sort of AI machine learning Revolution seems it seems like that's what's happening right now you know it's been interesting to watch you know it's it's sort of like it feels to me at least it was like there was like a breakthrough moment in 2012 right that had to do with images um and then there was a lot of work you know subsequently valid to you know things like the creation of self-driving cars you know based on that and then there was some it feels like some natural language breakthrough maybe three years ago yeah um and now that's really catalyzed into this you know kind of whole thing that we see happening around you know GPT and text generation yeah um and then uh you know even even other other applications transcription you know is getting much better all of a sudden speech synthesis is getting much better yeah um and then now you've got this artistic Revolution happening with image image um uh you know image creation and now video creation is is right next you know coming up now really fast yes um and so it seems like one of those catalytic moments and then it it's it's it's you know it's like every week now there's like fun it seems like there's like fundamental breakthroughs there's research papers there's product releases coming out so it seems like a cascading thing the the way I think about it as a software person you know sort of lifelong lifelong programmer um is that they're you know basically in the fullness of time it will appear I think that there were kind of two different ways to write software there was the sort of the old way to write software which is sort of the classic Von Neumann machine you know deterministic way and and the the whole problem with writing software in the old model is like computers are hyper literal yes right and so they do exactly what you tell them traditionally right every time they do something wrong it's because you have instructed them in properly and it's your very humbling experience to learn as a young programmer that everything is is your fault um and the Machine will just sit and wait for you to fix the problem like it's not it's not gonna it's not going to do that on its own um and then there's this new there's this other way to write software and this has to do with you know having having these these uh these AI systems and then having training data training the systems tweaking the systems yeah um and the sort of you know capability that that um the way I described it to kind of normies is though you know that sort of unlocks the ability for computers to more and more interact with the real world yes and with the messiness of the real world right and the probabilistic nature of the real world yeah well it seems almost less like writing software almost like training something that's right when I think about machine learning and image recognition you talked about it felt like it was almost like training a dog right like reinforcement learning is like we'll give treats as it gets better but there's something different now it feels like I don't know we've gone from like training a dog to recognize a bird versus like a hot dog or hot dog or not hot dog or so on to actually something where it feels closer like training a person or I don't know how you feel like when we talk about learning and training and data like what what are we training what is where do you think we are in that Arc of getting to like eventually HAL 9000 and so on well so I I while this has been happening you know if you have kids like I have a you know young young child so I have a seven-year-old now so as this stuff has all been popping I've been simultaneously training and training now the seven year old yes yeah you know any anybody who's had who's had kids will recognize what you know kind of what I'm about to say but um you know it is really interesting watching little kids the way I think about they're at least at least at least the little kid I have uh who's great um it's like you know it's like everything for the first for the first few years it's like every single thing he did was like a little applied physics experiment which is like let's see what happens if I drop this let's see what happens if I eat this let's see what happens if I do this to Daddy yes right and see what the response is and they just run experiment and you can see it you can see it very clearly when they're like learning how to walk because they're like running all these experiments about how to stand up and what to hold on to and they keep falling over and then at some point like good yeah it's a little neural network like actually figures it out it does learn off in a way they go right yeah um and so you know clearly it's like it's kind of you know it's a little bit Eerie like you can see that a similar kind of thing happening you know look having said that like you know the you know the human brain just like you developing and then you know It ultimately you know it clearly has Consciousness achieves you know higher levels of consciousness achieves higher levels of sort of self-knowledge you know reaches the Descartes you know kind of you know stage where it sort of has self-awareness um you know clearly is very creative from an early age I'm a little less convinced that the tech software Technologies we have now are like on some linear path towards just like quote-unquote AGI or just quote unquote like Consciousness like us it's hard for me to believe that conscious Consciousness is just simply like emergent from like higher scale neural networks like I I I that to me seems like a hand wave now yeah having said that I have a lot of smart friends who are pretty sure that that's what's going to happen so yeah actually I feel that way as well so I want to get to AGI in a bit I mean and also we can debate where the Consciousness is an illusion as it is but but uh where we are now is kind of amazing like can people can take like gpt3 you can give it SAT exams it can do okay like actually it can do quite well yeah yeah I can do scores it like the so the one I saw that scored it like with 1200 yeah yeah something like that yeah so it's not bad right I can do homework yeah I actually gave it like acid questions like uh to explain the derivation for the source trial radius you know the black hole radius to write a code for let's say eight by eight tic-tac-toe like random things that you should never be able to do because it's not just memorizing it it's generalizing right and it's getting that but then also it actually seems to have some sort of rear weird hiccups and that uh actually one thing that really does not seem to get is humor right you know um so I'm kind of curious where you think it's going to go because before we get to AGI there are things that an average human can do pretty well that GPT 3 can't but then there's also what experts can do yeah and uh what I'm very curious about is actually we may get to some of the expert stuff first uh before it can do even something like humor the irony is that something like humor that we take for granted might actually be really hard and other areas might be easier right well the ultimate example of the things that can't do like it can't my pecker suitcase yeah yeah like there's no robot that will pack your suitcase yeah it will and if you try to get her like make an omelette like yes it'll shred your clothes yes they're not you know yeah so it could drive your car but it can't pack your suitcase so um you can't do your laundry yeah um so there are there are these interesting kind of kind of twists um I so I would describe a little bit as followed us which is I think the the the this generation of AI that we have as impressive it is it is a little bit of a sleight of hand yes which we'll maybe talk about and then but I also think actually to your point human consciousness or human intelligence is also a little bit of hand yeah yeah maybe slightly different slides of hands so so the sleight of hand that you see when you're using GPT or you know one of these image generation things is it's not literally creating new information like what it's doing is is it is um it doesn't have like it has no opinion yes um it has no like point of view it has no like you know it's not sitting there like thinking on its own coming up with some new thing uh what it's doing is it's basically training you know ideally what it's doing this is training on the subtotal of all existing human knowledge yeah so for text generation it's training on all existing human texts right and so it plays back at you basically projections from the sort of you know assembled composite of all yeah when you ask it to do the eight by eight like yeah so probably somebody on the internet at some point wrote some paper about it I thought it's a little more than that because it because I asked like 56 by 56 or 101 by 101 yeah it has some sense of generalization yeah but but I'll bet we can check this I'll bet if we Google long enough I'll bet we could find a paper that described a general purpose algorithm for you know multi oh that may be right yeah yeah it's like somebody did that yeah yeah I've done the same humor experiment I like have it right Seinfeld scripts and sometimes they're really funny and sometimes they're just like yeah it makes no sense yeah I went for curb but you know it's the same idea exactly but like look there are a lot of jokes on the internet right and so you'd have to kind of you could kind of go back and kind of say okay it probably like pluck these jokes or by the way maybe there was a paper somewhere where they articulated a general theory of humor right because this has been humor's been studied as a as a thing and maybe there's like a general thing of like humors like the unexpected or whatever and so it it generalizes well it could be too like all sitcoms might be the same sitcom at some level right well yeah so here would be an example so Matt I also how to do like dramatic screenplays we've got a dramatic customers it's quite good if it was like three you could say like write a three-act screenplay yeah it will do it and it will have the proper like setup and resolution and so forth but yeah there are systems for like screenwriting in Hollywood where they have like three acts yes yes and then they have it's all Rocky or It's All Star Wars yeah well so so actually it's really interesting that maybe uh what we think is magical when humans do it isn't actually all that magical either so that's what I was going to say so then then the human sleight of hand is like you know is is there actually free will is there yes is there actually creativity happening upstairs yeah yes by the way if there is is it everybody is there really a thousand types of movies or is there like one latent space of the monomyth and basically what's happening I think the theory yeah just you know I'm kind of making this up but I think the theory would be the hero with a thousand faces or the yes the idea of the Union hero's journey yes yes which is sort of the basis for all of these plots in Star Wars and Harry Potter and everything else um you know a a a a somebody with your background might say that basically it's sort of algorithm for surfing human neurochemistry yes yes right and yes generating different like you know sort of neuron you know chemical responses to like you know fear and anxiety and you know love and all these other all these other things um I've always been fascinated there's this thing in Psychology called core affect Theory wow that one I don't know oh yeah this is great so so okay so what do humans have all these love and despair like we have all these different emotions to celebrate core ethic Theory says no we don't uh oh yeah yes or no good bad good or bad yeah and then Higher Love yeah um and so we either have like a positive like uh we either have like a positive uh a neural response or a negative neural response and then it's either high intensity or low intensity and then you just basically and so it's like wistfulness is like you know just slightly negative but like you know despair is like extremely negative uh yeah and then you know so it's all too by two it's a two by two and it's it's and we're more basic organisms than we think and then we just we retro you know as and we're very one of the things that's great known is humans are very good at creating a story to justify whatever happened right um and so we create these stories these scripts around this idea of an emotion but it's basically just justifying the neural response yeah and so the the cynical view would be like having an ice cream cone on a hot Bay and like falling in love are like the same thing yes well maybe nor chemically neurochemically maybe they are well this comes into play in like you know drug abuse right which is you know things things that generate an opioid response yeah like some people get an opioid response from alcohol yeah right and they're they're former prone to alcoholism a lot of people don't get that response and so it's literally a neurochemical thing so so yeah look maybe we're maybe we're bundles of neurochemistry to a much deeper extent than or a much simpler extent than we want to believe yeah having said that um you know again oh oh and then that that takes me the other thing on AI which is I do you know one of the ways that people are testing AI is with the so-called Turing test right and the the simplified form of the Turing test is you're chatting with with somebody that maybe a human or maybe a bot and you chat for 20 minutes and can you guess better than random history yes human robot yeah you know that my take on that is to turn you know Alan Turing was a genius but the Turing test is malformed yes humans are too easy to trip yeah yeah yeah but but that's too low of a bar because tricking a person is not that hard and does not prove anything other than you've tricked the person like yes like I think and this is relevant because I think you know things like GPT are about to pass the Turing test yes yeah exactly um and so I think it's going to turn out that that was too lightweight of a test yes well here's here's my favorite example for why I know GPT is not self-aware um if you ask it if it's self-aware and and you ask it to elaborate on how it became self-aware it will happily tell you yes and by the way if you ask it if how it's going to feel if you if you turn it off it's going to tell you please don't yeah yeah yeah yeah if you ask it to explain to you why it's not self-aware yes it will very happily do that too it does not have a differential opinion about those two outcomes yeah yeah whereas every living you know every conscious not ever even even no consciously any any living organism has a very different response to those two scenarios it's been amazing because in some ways I feel like it's as much been interesting to study the AI as the AIS reflected for us to study ourselves you know and I think we are sort of seeing that the magician has certain tricks whether it's the AI magician or the human magician uh and it's going through this education process I'm curious though like it feels like you know so so like GPT can get into a high school or get into college let's say but like what would it take for it to get its PhD you know and and like we're I think that's where where the sort of dramatic stuff is to come yeah well so again it's exactly your point it's not stress I would ask the question the other way which is like well okay what does it take to get a PhD yeah what does it take for Humanity like yeah how are the universities doing yes yes yes yes yes yeah how are they doing on quality control of their own programs yes how many people are getting phds today that we would say are like actually valid like yes you know whatever actual accomplishments yeah yeah by the way um people who got you know professors have years ago like how would they score the phds that are being granted today when they say wow would they say the bar is lower lower I think they would say it bars dramatically lower yes right um and so you know the answer might be we haven't lowered the bar but same thing for college admissions like you know what does it take to get into college but what does it take to finish college yeah and you know the education system well this is coming up a lot right now because it's like okay GPT can Auto generate like you know essays right um and so student essays uh and so it's like okay the great the grading method of assign an essay and grade the result like is probably not going to work anymore yeah but it's like okay was that ever actually yeah like just because we thought that was education was that actually education like what was that actually teaching anybody anything like actually I'm sure someone's going to take that to apply to colleges oh yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah challenge applications are basically done yeah at least at least to the extent that you believe that college applications were a legitimate way to evaluate anybody in the first place yes yes no it's dark it's done I'd be more skeptical that they were ever useful in the first one too right um yeah well so in the PC let's talk about like at least in that old school mentality of a PhD of some Advan Advanced learning where you become an expert in something right you know I think that's the thing where what do you mean by expert uh let's say the ability to be in the top point one percent uh of humanity of let's say designing a drug or interesting doing something oh yeah yeah yeah yeah is that what that is that what they teach me yeah yeah well that's that's presentation universities that is my goal I wasn't aware of I wasn't aware that was part of the curriculum I think it is or at least that's what you have to do eventually when you get out right yeah you know and that you have to apply it I think it's where I think it is one of the things about being an expert in my mind is that something that is the difference between bad good and great can be really close like um I could probably write a piece of music but no one would think it's all that great you know and then you could have someone who's a good musician but not a great one then you have like a genius like a Mozart or a Led Zeppelin or whatever particular genre you know and I think we're we aren't there yet is that when the difference between good and great is so close right or like from spinal tap there's a fine line between uh brilliant and stupid right you know I I think that is where I think it hasn't really hit yet right in that if you look at the jokes the jokes are just kind of okay the screenplays it makes are not like brilliant screenplays right I think it could get into college but could it win best screenplay okay you know and so that's this part where I think we're we're gonna we're not there yet okay you know but then I think we're getting there so name a great music composer generated by a music uh PhD program uh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah name one yeah I'm thinking more in the the scientific side of things but yeah I don't think probably the PHD programs in that space is probably not intended to generate music okay yeah made one greatest screenplay written by a PhD in drama yeah yeah so so that's an interesting point um but I I think what I'm getting at is still like the ability to do something and so and the education part we can talk about how they learn because I think in the case of the screenplay or the the music you're talking about they they still have to learn something right they you know or do you think they just innately sort of knew how to write a screenplay I don't know yeah I assume there's a process where they write a screenplay it's kind of mediocre oh yeah yeah yeah and then and then they get critiqued or they critique themselves and then and then it improves and improves and improves well the screenplay okay so the divorce divorce in the education [Music] question number one for screenplay is does it sell to the studio will they usually buy it yeah and then that's number two is when the movie comes out and the TV show comes out does anybody watch it people like it yes yes finish it yeah yeah one of the fun things that Netflix will now tell people uh who make film and TV is they actually tell them for the first time whether anybody's actually finishing their movie yeah yeah yeah um yeah just all those stats are kind of mind-blogging right yeah yeah a lot of movies like and you know people go to the theater and they feel you know invested in and they don't want to leave in the middle but like yeah it's very easy to punch out yeah it turns out a lot of screenplays you know this is something that's professional screenwriters will tell you like it can't ever sag yeah yeah just just as one example because people will will stop watching so uh yeah so so screenwriting is subject to uh uh Market test popular music required test but it's classical music which I'm a huge fan of uh is no longer subject to Market tests right it's thoroughly subsidized yeah that's interesting yeah it's not in the free market anymore yeah or maybe equivalents or music Movie music is you know so Movie music is subject to Market tests right and it's probably the modern classical it is the modern classical um yeah for that reason so yeah like the market test is real but yeah let me Grant your point so let's build on what you said your point like let's use this could we use the term paste maybe like yeah or just ability to do something hard well ability so okay so ability to do something hard and create let's say create create something hard yes uh create something complicated and then also the ability to judge yeah yeah right uh and and you're critically like to start with judging your own work yeah and probably therefore in the ability to prove and then therefore the ability to prove right so yeah I think that there's there yeah so there's something about there's something about taste yeah like I I tend to think this stuff all has like aesthetic yeah like a properly constructed mathematical formula or software program has aesthetic oh 100 right theorial design has aesthetic properties physics all of it yeah yeah so there's something about taste that's like some combination of quantitative qualitative yeah like a great start is like from a from a mediocre one as taste right yeah exactly and like there's certain signals like there's certain methods and certain signals but it's not necessarily reducible to an algorithm it's more of like a composite you know it's sort of a foundational knowledge combined with some scope of experience combined with some yeah kind of ineffable characteristic of judgments well we associate an aesthetic with it but I wonder whether that's also just our emotional connection to it right you know because I think we have this good right or wrong or more right or more wrong right like a gradient like yeah that's the right direction right and but a lot of us also whether something is elegant versus like just a hack right you can tell whether these great things are just simple and Powerful rather than like some some complicated machine to do something that you know you know there's gonna eventually fall apart or that um you think about that's true in physics or in the go to market or in uh or in music it has all that both that sort of complexity and a simplicity at the same time right um but so but I'm curious like so when AI gets that point which I think that's a win not an if okay yeah yeah yeah or so why would you say why wouldn't it get there because like do we even understand how it works in people maybe we don't have to well maybe we don't have to so this is where I describe this this is like the AGI question yeah I call the handwave yeah it's or the same thing the embedded assumption that it's a win is that it will be an emergent process that will sort of unlock as a consequence of greater and greater levels of scale yeah maybe yeah yeah one way of looking at that is yes that is just what's going to happen that's not even Consciousness like that's obviously what's going to happen the other impression that is it's just a massive it's a hand wave it's a hand wave and it's what the kids would call it cope and the cope would be okay so here let me ask you a question in return yeah yeah um what is the sub specialty of human biology uh and medicine that best understands the nature of human consciousness today oh yeah I don't think there's a there is one right there is one anesthesiology okay which is poorly understood well it's poorly understood but they know how to turn it off but yeah and they know how to turn it back on yes they've got the on off switch that's all we go that's all we have like yeah we have been we collectively have been studying this question of human consciousness for a very long time we have very advanced Technologies today functional MRI and like all this stuff but that speaks there's a field I would love to see created which is molecular psychology yeah okay yeah where you can start to probe this one a little more than on off okay and molecular so so and this is literal or metaphorical um quite literally like and so play like molecular biology but this big thing in the 80s where we finally can bring like chemistry of small molecules to like pocket biology or chemical biology as well and if we could use like small molecules to maybe perturb more than just on off but like perturbs things we can start to understand the brain yeah a little bit because reading is one thing but like poking and and sort of perturbing and then seeing the result is usually How We Do any sort of experiment yeah would you do that is that a chemical chemical experimentation would that be electrical it could be either one it could be any of that but it would probably be some combinations like on a track in theory yeah so like look we just don't okay so here would be the counter argument is like we just we don't know how human consciousness Works um we actually we've I actually I I I I didn't go in the film but I didn't go in the actually was that was going to be what I was going to study in school 30 years ago but I looked at the field at the time and I was like they don't have a clue like I'm going to spend my entire career so you want to go into Consciousness yeah yeah but that was like expert systems expert systems well there are early neural networks and and then a lot of it got into brain chemistry and like we're going to figure this stuff out and we're gonna learn how to build you know and it's just like they didn't know that and as far as I know they don't know now and so the counter argument would be this is all just like massive cope for the fact that we actually we don't understand that so we don't understand how to do it and so all we can do is hand wave and kind of just say well it's just going to be a version and it's like no it's not yeah and we're going to be sitting here 30 years from now and we're still not going to have any more knowledge you know barring other scientific breakthroughs of the kind that you're talking about yeah what's interesting is if you think about that time we had neural Nets but they were all single layer basically and then they couldn't even do xor you know you couldn't even do some simple things because you needed deeper networks to get at them and you couldn't have deep networks in because we didn't have the computational power and so the space was pretty dormant for a while you know AI until like we started going to having the basically just the computational power from gpus and other things to be able to go deep and then you could feed the data through so it is possible that we sort of have a point where we sort of saturate the compute that we have now we get to as much as we can get to and that may get uh close to AGI maybe not and then takes another like 30 years to get to the next sort of breakthroughs to get there but okay so but I would pull back from there so AGI is the fun thing there is a sort of step back which is to pick a domain and and you know the domains I think a lot about like life sciences um designing drugs doing Health Care like seeing if you can do it pick a diagnosis can you suggest a drug in those areas now we're talking about much more limited domain so we're now talking about we don't we don't need to go all the way to Consciousness for that necessarily you can you can have something that's more limited in that limited domain right now it seems like generative AI isn't quite far enough yet to be able to like yeah I don't see the examples quite yet sure yeah well let's we'll see I mean so yeah what's the what's the counter and I know you especially think about Healthcare a lot yeah yeah well so the first thing is whenever you're scoring well let's talk about medical diagnosis which is kind of just low hanging fruit Yeah question because everybody everybody experiences it so to start up front you have to ask a question up front which is like is the goal what's the threshold is the threshold perfect or is the threshold better than human yeah that's a great Point yeah right yeah um yeah and by the way you know this is a topic that comes up all the time it's all right in cars right which is is it perfect it will never make a mistake or is it just going to be better better than human in the way that self-driving cars score this is accidents per thousand miles driven and self-driving cars are already lower than human drivers and humans may actually be getting worse by the way you know it increased forms in certain kinds of drug abuse right um and then of course the machines have the characteristic they get better universally right so a car a car has one mishap in one location every other car gets trained on how to deal with that in the future where you know the Learning Happens across the entire entire system um and so like I think you can make a serious argument that like basically uh self-driving cars are already Better Than People on a relative basis and therefore like morally you could even go so far as to say human drivers should be outlawed today right like it would be like if you have the alternative you can have the self-driving car then yeah yeah like the utilitarian I'm not a utilitarian but the utilitarian argument would be you should obviously ban human drivers today because the machine driven stuff is already better probably by the way the same is true for airplanes right now we're not actually going to do that and there are other considerations involved and so forth but like you know logically speaking you should at least think about that as a possibility and I think you should think about that as a possibility I think for medical diagnosis which is you know and here the test is very simple which is well you're at least Express two tests test number one is the absolute test which is if I feed in a set of symptoms it generates the correct diagnosis 100 of the time deterministically guaranteed that's a high bar the other is I do that with the algorithm and then I go to 100 doctors human doctors and I get back 100 different responses and then let's compare right and then let's track over time and so if you compare to medium doctors yeah yeah right and like how good is the media doctor in the diagnosis and like I don't know what your experience has been like well and the median doctor may be smart but also maybe overloaded maybe exhausted may have like 12 other patients 15 minutes yeah a lot of experiences 15 minutes you know there's a thing here like experts in these areas tend to either like be like doctors themselves or they like know a lot of doctors or they have like their you know that they work in the industry they make money they have a concierge doctor who spends a lot of time with them and does house calls the media and Healthcare experience is 15 minutes in somebody's you know Heritage schedule with a doctor that may or may not ever see you again and has very limited data yeah yeah and yeah and there's well-known algorithm which is that they come up with a diagnosis they come up with a treatment you go with that that doesn't work you repeat and while not sick and while still sick and not dead you just repeat and then I think many of us have been through that well and then there's and then there's all the other sort of things so then there's like drug interaction you know is any one doctor tracking all the interactions of your drugs yeah then there's this other issue which is okay they give the prescription does is there actually compliance for taking the prescription does the doctor actually know whether you're taking the prescription is one of the biggest disasters right but that means like the ability for a media doctor to even evaluate the success of a treatment they may actually may not be able to do it because they may not have the data on compliance yeah yeah and so like you look at the existing I don't know for me you look at the existing system by which this all happens it's very similar to look into the existing system by which people actually drive cars which is like oh my God this is not good like this is really not good yeah uh and and we kind of fool ourselves into believing that it's good because it kind of feels good and we don't really want to look behind the curtain but we look behind the curtain and it's pretty horrifying yeah yeah and so from that standpoint if if you follow that logic then it says okay if the machine could do a better job you know if if the machine was twice as good um at just like listening symptoms giving the response during the prescription doing the follow-up yes yeah I mean how far yeah I know if you've done this but you you plug in a list of symptoms I've been playing with it too yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean because it does have acts I mean it has access to the collective medical yeah and if it doesn't now it can't right right you know it could have be filled with all the emrs all the medical records and so on and they could sort of learn from that as well well then the other and then the other question I'm sure you thought about but like okay so the medical field moves and you know in the existing system the media and doctor has to like read all the papers yeah yeah yeah yeah which never happens right no one has that for that yeah right yeah and there's continuing education but still it's not the same well here's an example do you want do you want your GP would you do you want MGP or an lgp presumably the old GP has more experience and so they have more pattern matching over time and more experienced with patients but the MGP is probably more up in the current science yeah yeah okay yeah and then it's like okay do you really want to have to make that trade-off or can the machine actually have both of those exactly well that's the thing is that like you talked about how like um Can it beat let's say how does it do compared to 100 doctors when the 100 doctors collaborate presumably that's the ideal situation right I mean or or you know that sounds horrifying no no I mean that's the wisdom of the crowd no that's perfect it could go well I guess it could go either way but it's a committee usually that's the Soviet method usually when you actually when you pull it you can or at least maybe it's how you collaborate have you really found human beings to make better decisions in groups than they do as individuals that's a good question yeah in your entire life yeah yeah the serious answer is the wisdom of crowds Madness of crowds yeah yeah yeah our flip side's the same coin right and so and when are you harnessing the wisdom when are you descending into madness or even just you know mediocrity yeah yeah like it's very specific tasks um groups can do well but otherwise it's like one big like group project from high school yeah yeah which is like a well so generally right but generally what happens people at groups is the social social conformance kicks in right and so people want there's a well-known you know kind of thing there's like this group polarization which is you take a group of people who already inclined slightly to one side of the vehicles yeah you put them together let them talk for three hours they all come out much more radical yes yes because they've self-reinforced yes yes yes right well so maybe that's really interesting thing because you can imagine training AI to do have these different aspects and it's collaboration with other versions of it would be very different yeah yeah it could be very different I mean yeah maybe it should do like this effectively a Monte Carlo yeah yeah yeah right right run the same inputs 100 times yes yes right yeah well okay so so I I either will never get there or we're already there now but I think in 10 years it does seem especially maybe we hit like another winter but it seems like things are accelerating so much this seems pretty real it seems pretty real yeah what do you think Society needs to to to change because there's like all these things we were talking about and this seems bigger than like just just the revolution of software over the last 20 years or internet from the last 20 years because we're talking about how it changes government how it changes regulatory how it changes education I mean I don't even know where you want to start with that but I think that's what something where it may take us 10 years just culturally right to be able to get ready for this thing that may arrive in 10 years or may already be here right right yeah I don't know where you want to start yeah so where I would start is we've already fallen into I think we've we've deliberately kind of fallen into trap already which is we've only been using a single kind of example and we've used it both in our discussions on medicine and also in education which is basically a something is done today people are doing something today and then maybe the machine can do it instead that's an important thing and that's that you know as we're thinking about but the way that technological impact actually plays out in human society is not just that the way it plays out is it lets you basically revisit more fundamental assumptions yeah or what's not being done today or what's not being done today it all of a sudden becomes possible yeah and and this comes this this always comes up in any sort of discussion about employment yeah people doing jobs versus machines doing jobs people get worried about technological displacement of jobs but that logical displacement of job like technology never actually creates unemployment technology only ever creates jobs in that yeah um and and the reason for that is to algae makes possible things that were not possible before yes which is what yes to growth and so specifically for example the role of the doctor um you know it's like okay the doctor of the future is probably not going to be doing the same right we have a tournament in in it break fix yes which is kind of what doctors you know because the core motion of a lot of doctors as you said diagnose prescribe diagnose prescribed smoking yeah debugging yeah exactly doctors of the future probably like the the technologically empowered doctor 10 years from now is highly unlikely to be spending their day doing that yes they are probably going to be spending their day doing things that are actually much more important than that yes right and so for example maybe they have more time right with patients because the machine is is is a time saving device um maybe they have more data to draw on you know to be able to make their decisions you know they've got the machine as a part really making the decisions maybe they're able to spend more time in their conversation with the patient talking about psychological issues as compared to just physical issues and as you know in a lot of medical conditions involved you know two sides of that or behavioral issues well as you know like a lot of primary medical issues today are consequence of different behaviors yes and maybe doctors should be spending more time in behaviors and it speaks to compliance as well as other issues awesome um yeah I mean compliance is a behavioral issue like why don't people do this or that right but then also there's all the behavioral health issues right which is probably one of the biggest catastrophes ever have coming out of covet yeah exactly right yeah exactly maybe doctors should be you know maybe the doctor of the future will be more of a life coach yeah of which there will be a pharmacological you know sort of a biological or pharmacological component right but maybe it's like maybe it's more of you know sort of the dream is sort of holistic uh you know medicine um and so you know maybe the doctor the future is just as much is a is actually much more important and you know sort of fundamental figure in your life than he is than he or she is today yeah that sounds fantastic right exactly so so if I'm a doctor that that's where that's where I would want to be yeah towards yeah right and then and that and that's probably a bigger and more important market right you know and then and then in terms of like the size of that that industry will probably expand yeah you know kind of correspondingly I think the same thing is true in education like you know the the the teacher 10 or 20 years from now I hope is not doing the same things the teacher is doing today I hope they're doing much better things yeah right so for example one-to-one tutoring like there's basically the thick education example like there's only one in the last like 50 years there's basically only one known education intervention at scale that actually improves outcomes after you know thousands of experiments it's one-to-one tutoring yes which is very ancient actually which is very right which is the original form of Education which is literally how people used to get used to get educated and so maybe this industrial you know the education system we have today is an artifact of the Industrial Age if the Industrial Age components of it become automated the teacher becomes freed up to actually work more one-to-one with students the result might actually be a significant breakthrough in how Education Works although the ways you're describing you can imagine also like AI doing one-on-one oh yeah they're pretty intensively there will be part of that but also yeah and maybe the AI is the one-on-one and maybe and maybe in that case the teacher is supervising the AI yeah right and maybe and maybe maybe the teacher is making sure that they as like on the right track and doing the right things and is able to kind of sit at the control panel and watch all that happening right well that speaks to something really interesting because I think we're probably a little nervous at least short term to just unleash This and like not pay attention to it and so you'll have the doctor using this as a tool but keeping an eye on it you'll have the teacher maybe scaling dramatically for all this one-on-one but keeping an eye on it do you think that's actually the way it's gonna I mean this is kind of how all Technologies work yeah like yeah yeah so so it's sort of um another way to think about it is you could imagine two acronyms for AIS and artificial intelligence which kind of implies replacement yeah the the one I actually like much better is augmented intelligence yes and augmented intelligence is you know it's another example the term would be Steve Jobs a bicycle for your mind but right um or you know right um right so the augmentation right um and so the way if you just look at the history of new technologies the way it plays out is everyone's afraid it's going to be a replacement and it turns out it's an augmentation yes yeah so you take a human being and you give them the technological tools they therefore are much more productive yeah like a factory versus like uh Artisan with their tools yeah exactly or like you know you know the dream of like an X you know an exoskeleton yeah you know any of these things yeah I mean look our artists are much more productive today with digital tools than they were with just you know painting canvas yeah yeah um and by the way even artists that still work on paint and canvas are much more productive today because they can sell their products to a much larger audience online or like my favorite thing for art is like you know photography comes online right and that dramatically changes art because being photorealistic isn't that interesting anymore but so that creates modern abstraction right yeah which actually is maybe even more expressive right than just taking a picture right and so now I can make pictures with with AI all the time right so where does that shove art maybe to a more interesting place and the artist yeah history the artists were not happy about the introduction of Photography because yeah it originally is a threat of course yeah right but it transformed things yeah it turned out to be it turned out yeah it turned out the market for art is much larger today than it was oh that's interesting before the introduction photography I mean we call it different things we call it things like TV shows and so forth but like the market for Creative expression is much much larger than it used to be by the way music same thing right you know recorded music was originally a threat it used to be a musician would compose and perform right um and then you know to have music in your home you'd have to hire a musician to come into your home you know photographs were a threat to that but phonographs made the music industry much much larger so people who were good at making music all of a sudden had a much bigger Market yeah so I I think AI is going to play out in a very similar way like there are people who argue you know AI is different because they just keep climbing this letter and we'll replace everything I actually think it's going to be basically it's the ultimate superpower it's the ultimate pairing uh good we were talking about creating screenplays and and scripts a good example if I'm a Hollywood screenwriter today like GPT is my best friend and I'm just sitting there all day long and I'm just saying you know playing out it's like okay I reach this plot Point dot dot dot give me a list of like 10 ideas for what to do it's like oh okay that's an interesting one yes uh um I'll give you an example how this could work so mad men it's one of my favorite shows Matthew weiner you know right in that show and he was always pleased he's like wow that show is so unpredictable like you know you never knew where it was going and he said yeah well the technique we had in the writer's room was at any given time we had to figure out what happened next in the plot yeah uh we would brainstorm we'd come up with the five sort of things obviously five obvious things so gbt would be obvious things and you rule those out yeah yeah exactly so it pushes creativity all of a sudden every individual screenwriter can do that without having to have a whole writer's room to brainstorm you just plug that in it gives it back to you in two seconds you're just like okay not those things yeah I'm gonna to do something else and now I am more creative than I was before right your comment about music's really interesting because now we've got Spotify so we got everything in your pocket you can imagine like the AI Spotify which is like the doctor the personal trainer the educator like all those different things in my pocket available right now for whatever I need to do yeah that's right yeah and with the human escalation path right yeah it's like yeah the AI therapist or whatever but yeah with the thing of like well okay yeah I really have a thing here especially if it gets really serious to escalate immediately yeah that's right yeah yeah okay so what's what's going to hold us back what what do we need to change so I think it's mostly fear so that this is where maybe I'm a radical on it because you know this is usually where people start talking about like regulation um I I I think it's like we have these we have these fear-driven reactions I I always think of it there's this deep-seated myth in human societies of the Prometheus myth right yeah yeah and then Prometheus Prometheus myth is all about new technology right and then Prometheus myth is like basically this new technology of fire right and you know and fire is one of these classic Technologies where like it can be used for good right or it can be used very badly right yeah it can destroy your your whole world um and so you know Prometheus famously you know goes and retrieves um you know fire from the gods and his punishment for it is to be chained to Iraq and if his liver pecked out every day for the rest of Eternity right so embedded in there is like the anxiety about the new technology and then the arrival of the new technology maybe is like you know the fear right is that it's not bad and the person who does that should be punished and so I always find that myth kind of plays out over and over again in all these discussions about regulation yes that this stuff you know especially it's the gods who punish him right the existing Gods yes yes well on behalf yes on behalf of on behalf of uh on behalf of existence but um yeah yeah so um I yeah I I think generally it's this it's just you get you get these fears if you look at the history of yeah we talked about some of this if you look at the history of new technologies they generally have these fears yes uh every step along the way every technology has been created with some prediction that it's going to upend the social order and cause the you know well it does up into some degree right and it will do that but but generally speaking in a positive way on balance yeah you know I mean technology is why we live much better lives today certainly people now would not want what people had 50 years ago nobody would make that yes right and you could do you could go back in time infinite it would be like that right nobody would ever make this radius nobody would ever make a trade to go back in time it would never happen yeah and then yeah right that's literally it's because you wouldn't want to you would not want to lose the Technologies yes you have today so I think that's true and so I actually think like fear maybe the Jeff fear maybe the actual biggest threat yeah fear leads to the kind of uh you know reach for regulation yes I'm a skeptic I I don't it's like I don't know right regulating math can we really didn't regulate math well but it's not going to look like regulating math right it's going to look like regulating this superpower that's what they're gonna say yeah right yeah the actual implementation of this is algebra yeah regulating algebra regulating linear algebra like are we really going to regulate linear algebra matrix multiplication yeah really seriously yeah and and then even if we do are we gonna possibly do it you know in a way that makes any sense yeah well okay but it won't obviously won't look like that it'll be saying well we can't have computers drive cars right or like what what what's the what's how do you give the computer a test yeah or how do you know like okay you make this I'll be the cynic so okay you make this claim that the computer AI is better than human like how do I know that because that well yes it turns out because the cars are driving yeah so yeah that's okay so yeah Heroes internet okay so here's how that played out self-driving cars yeah it's interesting there was one category company that said we're going to basically wait until it's perfect and we're going to basically try to validate Regulators yes they're not driving yeah and they're not on the road they're still not on the road there's another category company that said you know what let's evolve out of basically the cruise control um and you know it's go to cruise control and then it's radar basically and you get humans driving with it and you label data and exactly and you don't expect the car to drive itself from the very beginning the car is like an autopilot kind of thing the expectations you pay attention like you know Tesla is the company I'm alluding to and if you if you turn on full stop driving on Tesla you're still you know you're still told like you're not supposed to be watching a movie you're supposed to be actually paying attention to the car will like alert you when it's time to pay attention um but you know notwithstanding that Tesla has been climbing the ladder on self-driving car functionality capability they do new software releases push live to car at night anytime they want those new releases are not being tested by any federal yeah the federal you know it's uh whatever it is doing these things yeah there's no actual test happening yeah and that has that and that has led to incredible progress including yeah as I said clearly in the data this is now standard because you can't drivers you can't make it work just magically right it has to do happen gradually right because it's it's right it's actually much like Madison and it's centering into a complex system with a lot of variables yeah in the real world like medicine too it's like life or death you know it's just serious but yeah but it yeah then we go back to how we started the conversation yeah the the wait for permission thing the the binary zero or one wait for permission wait for Perfection Thing versus the incremental let's get better and better and better and the threshold is is it better than humans is it is it a net Improvement yes I mean clearly in self-driving cars that second approach is the approach that's working yeah and do you think you get to the Tipping Point where look let's look at the statistics we have because we we have all this happening right now we have the statistics and it's like so much better than humans why wouldn't we do it yeah exactly right and then at some point the morality tips where it's like well obviously we have to go in this direction because it's just it's just obviously better yeah I suspect we're going to get their medicine pretty quick yeah yeah yeah I'm an optimist on that and again I'm not an optimist because I think the a is going to be perfect I'm an optimist because I think the status quo is not that good yeah well that might be like you start empowering doctors you give them tools they start using them and start empowering patients patients start using them and actually here I think it's even different than the car because you're not on a road right it's you know it's your body or whatever and actually patients are driving their own health care more than ever I think covet was another sort of Tailwind there so maybe you start maybe it's just about developing the tools and giving them out right well here would be an example so let's use our screenwriting example to play into medicine which is you know a given set of conditions there may be many possible diagnoses yeah an experience I've had is there's a set of a set of symptoms yes one doctor comes up with one diagnosis another doctor comes up with a different diagnosis you read the literature and it's like actually both of those diagnoses in theory are but like for some reason the one guy I only thought of the one the other guy only thought of the other yeah so a way for doctors to start using this technology today would be plug in the symptoms give me five possible diagnoses yes okay oh I didn't even realize right that you know because maybe this is a new thing since you know I went to medical school or something I didn't realize diagnosis number three was an option I just go look at that yes yes right and so the doctor is still doing the diagnosis so that's your screenplay example your your augmented as a doctor you're augmented because in that case is alerting you to things that you should know but yeah no yeah right yeah I mean um that's interesting it's almost like having a mentor or or just someone to riff with that's right yeah yeah yeah and they write it's a great thing is it is a machine it will riff with you as much as you want like it will sit there at three in the morning yeah yeah there's a hundred times for you it's happy to it doesn't get bored it doesn't get tired yes by the way and then it also has the advantage it has all the up-to-date information yes yes right and all the other outcomes and when it makes a mistake it it actually can learn from it rather actually from being other other than being like devastated by it or emotionally reacting to it right right right and like self-driving cars if it makes if some other doctor in some other state had a patient last week and made a mistake and they fixed the mistake it will not make the mistake again you're patient yeah yeah right yeah so I mean so you think so that is a very different regulatory play than we've seen in the history of healthcare well I think that's just uh you tell me I think that's just going to happen so yeah yeah here's what everybody knows yeah I'll give you a couple things yeah everybody knows that patients should not be on Google everybody knows every patient now does that it's called Dr Google exactly literally I was called in the field right and there's no way like you're not practically speaking you're gonna like regulate that out of existence yeah yeah that's going to happen I I think doctors using these new tools as an augment is something that they could just do it doesn't require approval so the ship has already sailed do you think I think so yeah yeah and by the way patients using GPT if it hasn't started it's going to start imminently yeah yeah probably so so so the patients are going to show up with the results of GPT queries and the doctors are going to have to respond to that and so yeah they're going to end up being in this world whether they want to be or not but that's actually really interesting because as a patient and I probably know just enough about medicine to be dangerous to myself but like I show up with the doctor and I have all of that thought out basically that might equalize the patients you know such that they can actually come much more educated and cut from much more thoughtful and they become much more in the process as well as a doctor do you want your patient yeah the patient more educated they may just be humoring me but I think they want maybe with you they might look a little bit more sideways but if it was really helpful I think they would I think it's just about how good it is right that's right okay so what goes wrong like I mean look the big thing that goes I mean look the big thing I think two things go so one is just that the expectation of perfection right like that and and look it's very you know it's very easy to generate the negative headline it's very easy to set off the scare the moral Panic basically right it was a single instance goes wrong and that gets extrapolated you know we talk a lot about thalidomide like you know it'd be very easy to have that kind of moment or like the the person on a bike that got hit by a Tesla or something like that yeah I think it was biking across a freeway right right exactly and so like a human probably hit him too yeah that's right yeah oh well that's a good point yeah the trolley problem yeah yeah you know the Charlie Brown's been in the press a little bit more recently because it turns out that Sam Bateman freed was an expert in the trolley problems okay it shows you that yeah so it's not the route ultimate morality is it yes yes as it's been marketing marketed but um yeah the Charlie probably the problem always gets the Charlie problem gets always mooded about from self-driving cars which is you know you have a choice between killing you know I don't know it's like I don't know five grandmas or one little kid or all these different like you have to leave but like yeah human drivers don't no no no human drivers never make that decision no they have gas or brick yes right and they have I'm gonna hit the car in front of me we're not going to hit the car in front of me it's never this elaborate thing it's always a very simple thing and so it's not a question of whether the machine can ideally solve this sort of you know idealized complex problem it's gonna get the brakes faster right when it's about to crash in the car directly in front of it yeah and so properly logically kind of containing the expectation here to actual real world and not having this spin off into these like basically fantasy narratives that you can then criticize um yeah the the the the yeah so that the absolute the absolute limits um and then yeah look I I think just the generalized fear right and what I always have to remind myself is like you know I'd like to say I'm a software software developer but background it's like okay I can actually like the other the algorithms that do this like you know can I tell you every aspect how they work no like do they do I understand how they work do I understand the basic foundations do I understand the basic maths yes yes this is why I make the comment about regulating math yes now to somebody who's not a coder right this whole this all this stuff like weird magic yeah yeah yeah um yeah and so there is a yeah I have to remind myself to be patient and tolerant of people who don't understand the mechanics of what's Happening that said I think the people who are going to be I think they also have to get on the mechanics and try to understand us and that and there's always slippage there yeah so what's the antidote to fear is it optimism is it education I mean ideal ideally I mean I think there's ideally it's yeah ideally it's cultural uh cultural orientation towards new technology and then ideally it's it's education of people learning and kind of uh yeah or you know the CP snow two cultures things yes yes yes backgrounds coming together and kind of educating each other um honestly a big part of it also I think is When Things become a fatal company yeah I mean this is what Tesla's done with self-driving cars yeah like if it's just happening yeah yeah right because who would want to go back like nobody wants to go back and like the system adapts right um and so um there was this famous Uber fought all these regulatory Wars and all the cities that they were in because it was not technically allowed under the taxi limo Chargers in the beginning so one of the things they did early on was they just made sure that there were always lots of Uber cars available around State houses and City Halls yes and so whenever somebody you know so you literally have somebody who's like in you know sort of giving this like roaring speech you know in City Hall about shutting down Uber and then they would come out and they'd have to get home really fast Uber would show up 20 seconds later right it's like at some point it just was like take it for granted and then at that point if you just said literally are we going to take Uber away people would have said no I can't it's over and that's what happened and then they and then literally what happened is they changed the laws to accommodate that behavior and so I actually think part of it here is just like having these tools okay here's the thing here's a good news thing yeah yeah these tools are becoming widely available up front right so like 50 years ago a new technology like this would have been like deployed in the government first and then in big companies and then years later in the form of something individual people could use the the model today is like it's just online yeah like GPD is online right now yes well the the future of paint is really intriguing because from an engineer point of view it's the engineer's dream that if we make it good enough such it can get to a point where people just love it and it's helpful and it does what it needs to do the rest will take care of itself yeah I mean I kind of think that's mostly how things happen I mean yeah yeah no that's a beautiful feature yeah yeah so now look having said that Healthcare is very sophisticated right yes lots of regulations there's lots of payments right all these things so I saw this thing on Twitter the other day yeah it blew my mind right because this whole time I've been thinking in terms of like you know diagnosis all this stuff in my life so this doctor posted a video um and um I think I saw that one so that first video and he said look he said the problem is whatever diagnosis whatever like I do the diagnosis I do the prescription then it's a question of whether or not I can get the uh the insurance company to reimburse to pay for the thing yeah to do that for anything even slightly out of the ordinary I have to write a letter I the doctor has to write a letter to the insurance company and that letter needs to be in a specific format and it needs to have to make the case right make the case and it needs to have the scientific citations yeah and if I do the letter really well it's going to get paid for and if I don't do the letter really well it's not going to get paid for it it's going to matter you know to the possibly the life of the patient yes um and so he's like it turns out GPT is really good at writing those letters with the references with the references yes with the scientific references like full-on right yeah and so you've got this so that's another way I think about it is you've got this bureaucratic process which is legitimate and required it needs to exist and that data needs to be submitted and honestly it does not matter to that process whether that document is written by human or a machine yeah yeah but all of a sudden if every doctor in the world is really good at writing correctly properly just letters then all of a sudden it goes to the thing all of a sudden that doctor now is another you know whatever four hours a week to actually take care of patients yeah like that's the kind of thing that I think is going to happen quite quickly and that what's interesting what's interesting about that example is you can imagine that example having a big impact on the efficiency of the Health Care system today yes without any regulatory changes yes without anything it's within the system within the system within the system yeah and so and that was just and that was the one where it's just like oh in retrospect that's obvious I just hadn't thought about it yeah one guy thinks about it all the other doctors start to do that yes the whole system upgrades step function yes one time yeah I think that kind of thing I think is a real possibility yeah and that could be because everyone's working within the system you can have the transformation immediately but then eventually someone has to read all those letters so that's to validate them it's probably you know some sorry NLP on the other side well that's right it's it's corresponding so there's we have this company um uh this company called do not pay uh yeah which is this uh company it's a it's a it's an app that sort of acts like a bot and yeah I've used the app it's very nice it's for people people that's right it's and it basically it'll basically get you it started to get you like out it was starting to get you out of like basically um uh sort of BS traffic tickets um and then um it's he did this thing a while ago where it will unsubscribe you for you know all these consumer subscription services like Comcast or whatever like they all make it hard to like ever turn off the subscription and so he has this way to the bot will do it for you and so he just started using AI in the bot and so um he now so so the way a lot of consumer subscription companies work is you can't you can subscribe online you can't actually unsubscribe online you have to call an 800 number and you have to argue with the person and there's actually this thing in these companies called save teams where they're actually paid specifically to prevent you from unsubscribing and they'll try to cut special deals with you and they'll try to talk you out of it and so he has this thing wired up where now he has the he has a AI generated text within text-to-speech oh it's just talking and it talks and it talks it talks to the customer service person at the end of the line yeah and basically with infinite patients yes yes we'll just sit and it will just argue like no I am actually going to unsubscribe yes no I'm not going to accept a special offer no no no no no no no right yeah exactly until finally the other guy finally gives up and says okay fine okay I'll stop charging you um and so it's like okay you know it was it was a precondition of the system that that worked the way that it did it was a burden on people to have to deal with that AI can now step in and equalize the power imbalance between the customer and the company and presuming that we'll change the system yeah well one would think yeah and to your point like step one for changing the system might be retaliation which is all of a sudden the safe teams will be Bots and so maybe the boss will be arguing with the Bots yes but at least it gets you out of this kind of kafka-esque thing you're in today where when you deal with these big companies you're dealing with this giant you're you're an individual dealing with a giant bureaucracy at least it like equalizes the power well that's kind of amazing and that will be the spark for changing things because once you're in that sort of system like we got to do better than this yeah this is crazy right yeah with each other all day long it's just food it's clearly stupid yeah yeah yeah yeah and especially when it's Bonds on both sides now we can finally say well Let's do an API on both sides so let's do something smart on both sides yeah just connect it yeah yeah well Mark I mean that's such a sort of beautiful optimistic view of how this could go right because the future we're talking about is actually a much more uh engineer driven that if an engineer can build this and it really really works it really helps patients it really changes things it will get adopted as it gets adopted cultural work around it and will love it and will not want to go back and then the future will just be right in front of us yeah I mean patients are going to get a vote Yes doctors are going to get a vote right yeah and you know this you know it gets in it so it's an industry made up of people a world many other people people will get a vote yeah beautiful thank you so much for joining us good yeah you bet foreign [Music]

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Id: c7ScUDYSRYo

Length: 55min 23sec (3323 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 09 2023