EXCLUSIVE: The sniper inside the Sydney Lindt Cafe siege | 60 Minutes Australia

mark Davidson had a job few of us would want and even fewer could do he was a sniper with the New South Wales Police Force on a chaotic December morning five years ago mark was one of the first officers called to a siege in the heart of Sydney he took a position in a nearby building and for the next 16 hours pointed his weapon at the windows of the Lindt cafe but in all that time there's one thing this professional killer didn't do he didn't pull the trigger when he had the chance to stop man Haron moni's the terrorist holding 18 hostages tonight mark Davidson tells why he believes he should have marked Davidson shoots with pinpoint accuracy and that means when he pulls the trigger it's deadly well if you're looking at someone front on what they're going he as a sniper for the New South Wales Police Mark Davidson was trained to kill and that's what he believes he could have done in December 2014 the day terrorist man Haron moni's walked into Sydney's Lindt cafe taking 18 hostages you believe you could have killed him yes for 10 long minutes mark had the terrorist in his sights but didn't take the shot it meant that hours later and powerless to act he could only watch as hostage Tori Johnson was executed in my opinion I believe Tory was a preventable death and liveth a few years Mark's story is one of regret and heartache and of missed opportunities on a day that he believes should have been so different certainly I believe on the day we didn't as a collective play how we train we could have we could have saved the hostages I could have saved Tory at least on Monday December 15 2014 Australians experienced terrorism at home like never before when man Haron Manas a lone gunman wearing an Isis headband walked into the Lindt cafe in the heart of Sydney brandishing a rifle and claiming he had a bomb in his backpack but now hundreds of police officers are shutting down the crowded Martin place the police tactical operations unit including chief sniper mark Davidson and his team were dispatched almost immediately on the way what were you thinking like most of the guys on that day I presume there was a good chance we weren't coming home why did you think that well the reports were in the early stages that he had a bomb or bombs he claims that he's planted two bombs in the cafe and two others in the city this was different because it's it was a terrorist event no one actually had confronted a situation like that in Australia before no that's fair to say a thing yeah did that change the dynamic at all do you think for you not really like most of us just defaulted to my training I knew exactly what I was preparing myself to do when I got there police had trained for a terrorism hostage event but as the city went into lockdown for some inexplicable reason the procedures they would normally follow were ignored I had it in my mind that I would be performing a coordinating role in the command post and you did that because that's protocol yes I was most senior in rank on that day and had the most training on that day as well you went into the command post at the start yes why didn't you stay I was told to leave and do you know why no it would be the beginning of the day that left mark confused about the police plan of attack instead he was sent into the field with his team taking a position surrounding the lead cafe one sniper sits opposite the cafe in the channel seven building but the studio's bulletproof glass means the sniper can only take an observational role mark and two snipers set up in the Westpac Bank diagonally opposite the cafe two other snipers are located in the Reserve Bank [Music] what were you seeing well I mean in the initial stages that was mostly the hostages standing facing out of the windows no you're getting a sense of their fear because you're presumably getting a closer look than most you could see that in their face a lot of them had their eyes closed and we're trying to go to a place in their mind that helped them stay calm I presume I was always wondering when this shot was gonna take place because were just sitting there waiting and waiting for the 18 hostages inside waiting for police to act was all they could think about nearly five years on the horror of that day still feels very real for hostage parlor Vassallo so you were waiting for the shot I was myself yes those countless times where he was walking and he was free on his own at the window and they will take the shot or just do something it's confusing for the public because we see this as a pretty straightforward situation the terrorist takes people hostage why didn't you just turn up and shoot him that the first available opportunity just shoot him I understand that but the reality is it's not that simple if you're going to kill someone first of all you need to justify an immediate threat to everyone I know some people may say well they were held against their will by an armed man that's the immediate threat satisfied there but using lethal force also needs to be a last resort the snipers couldn't take a shot unless they had a clear view of maan and believe they could take him out but what weighed heavily on Marc's mind was monus's claim he had a bomb the bomb the notion of a bomb was a serious impediment wasn't it yes certainly it was a major factor in Iran's mind and the detonation of something like that in a space like that is catastrophic an Islamic extremist in gay people by mid-afternoon those inside were beginning to lose hope that they would be saved nearly six hours into the siege three hostages made a daring escape Paolo was one of them at 3:35 he ran for his life out through a side door you escaped and you said it was bittersweet at the time yes do you still feel that way yeah I feel like escaped for for nothing I thought if I'm going to leave this place the last thing I would want to do is being here for all these hours and go outside and not provide information that will be vital to saving the people that are cared in there when two more escaped police now had five hostages providing them much-needed information from the inside but intelligence vital to snipers was potentially missed because they didn't have anyone in the police command post there was a decision they made not to have a sniper in the police command post was that a bad idea I think a sniper coordinator would have been a great advantage under the circumstances Chief Constable Simon Chesterman is one of the UK's most senior counterterrorism experts and independently reviewed the New South Wales police operation during the Lindt cafe siege I think these sort of intelligence available from escaped hostages is absolutely invaluable so you know the intelligence debrief of a hostage that's just come out of that scenario is extremely fruitful in terms of the tactical options available to you well in terms of Manas and he's claimed he had a bomb in her backpack the sorts of information a sniper might want to know would be what so anything about the nature of the backpack whether it did have wise its weight how he was handling it what he said about it you know anything at all would have been really valuable to them because because a sniper is thinking well if I take a shot and it and it's able to penetrate the glass and it reaches - what is he going to do to that backpack and therefore what's it going to do to the hostages so all of that really did need urgent attention hostage Paul over solo always believed any information he had about Manas and the backpack was important you told three police officers you saw no evidence of any bomb yes I clearly told him that there was no Y's on there and they asked me to see anything that looked like the baby would look like a wire and I said no it was nothing from him at all and you're quite detailed in conversation yes I was I was entirely suffices I told him that the bag was moving very lightly it wasn't sagging on the back and and no there's nothing don't no doubt at all in fact all the hostages who'd escaped told police they had not seen wires coming from the gunman's backpack it meant quite possibly there was no bomb at all and we now know there wasn't but for mark Davidson it was information that could have made the difference between taking and not taking the shot but it's information he never got any information related to that backpack was crucial then very important to what we do coming up I could see was his head you could see the shiny sort of bald scalp a monster in his sights you had no doubt it was him I didn't have no se and to take the shot you're weighing up shooting someone so what stopped the sniper things occurred on that day that I don't understand that's next on 60 minutes it's been nearly five years since the siege and Mark Davidson still finds himself coming here to the Lindt cafe in Sydney's Martin place I can't explain why I come back it's maybe to pay homage or respects inside he always takes a seat at table 9 window to where hostage Tori Johnson was executed I suppose on on there as a sign of respect or a lot to see yeah well it gives me some comfort mark was an elite marksman with the New South Wales police his sense of calm and stealth made him the perfect sniper as he lay in wait for his prey man Haron moni's on the night of the siege when you were here on the knives you were up here is that right yeah that's right and from that point that's where you you saw him on us yeah in window fall that's right yeah that period and that's that's window for there yep yeah the last one on the right from his position in the Westpac Bank mark had been constantly scoping for manas ten hours into the siege at 7:38 he saw him - had moved to the corner of the cafe it was terrified of silhouetting himself in the window frames generally he moved deep in the cafe so it was hard to see so at this time at 7:38 he had taken a seat on the floor or I could see - his head or about 2/3 of his head you could see the shiny sort of bald scalp and the Islamic black bandana with white riding across the front that went across his forehead you had no doubt it was him I didn't have doubt there was him but people in the command post had doubt it was him but you didn't know I didn't but mark knew that making the wrong decision could cost him dearly you can take the shot you don't have to be told when to take this shot any police officer is justified in using lethal force in a defense of themselves or someone else and there's no other way of stopping that threat so it's the same for me is it tough there's a sniper sitting there looking knowing this is my man I could do this yeah it's very tough but you're there you know it's him but you can't pull the trigger when you're weighing up shooting someone and if you think you're not justified then you had facing murder charges yourself it actually occurs to you that if I get this wrong I'm up murder for ten whole minutes Mark had manas in his sights and what did you do in that ten minutes I photographed him a number of times I made a radio call about it and I telephoned the command post I have the tango in white window for Jesse's head I needed to justify taking a shot namely that he was pointing a shotgun had hostages at that time and secondly that he didn't have an initiation device in his hand yeah I didn't want to cause an explosion in that place that killed everyone if he had that what was the reply that information was not available and how did that impact your decision-making well there was some doubt in my mind as to whether I was justified in shooting him then so I didn't 10 hours in he hasn't surrendered he hasn't negotiated he's doing nothing to help resolve the situation and you have an opportunity to shoot him still no justification that's just the call I made at the time mm-hmm gotta live with it this is a difficult position for a sniper to be and he can seem honest but he can't take the shot because he urgently needs more information frustratingly there was intelligence available firstly that they didn't appear to be wires coming from the terrorists backpack but there was more Tory Johnson the manager of the Lindt cafe and still a hostage inside only half an hour earlier had sent a critical text message what did that text say since - was in the corner all by himself sitting in the corner by himself Paolo Vassallo worked at the cafe and was a close friend of Torre he'd escaped just a few hours before receiving Tory's message and you had a policeman EU that's right and I showed you my phone you had a look at it and you sort of calendar passed that on do you believe that this was Tory saying you can get him now yes that's exactly what it was for that's what it was simple he sent that message so some type of action will take place and nothing took place how critical would that piece of information being for you a text message coming from a hostage inside the premises would have added to confirming his identity if there was any doubt with people that are unsure that sort of intelligence would be absolutely gold dust so to have a plan in place to learn that hostages are away from the hostage taker and the hostage taker is on his own in the corner probably would have been a good point that the commanders could have then considered intervention UK policeman Chief Constable Simon Chesterman is an expert in counterterrorism there to respond to these incidents having independently reviewed the siege operation he says officers in the field were always at a disadvantage because of the lack of a clear plan of action on the day do you believe decision-making was impacted at all by what appeared to be some confusion I think these incidents are or is going to be confusing but the thing that the officers must absolutely know on the ground is it is where's the tipping point at what point are we kind of intervene what exactly we're going to do simon Chesterman believes police commanders should have gone on the front foot do what they'd trained to do and authorize a DA deliberate action plan which would have meant using all the information available and taking Manas by surprise instead of waiting until the terrorists did something catastrophic I wouldn't say we was setting the officers up on the ground to fail but we were making their lives a lot more difficult but for me the lack of a DA in place on the ground was a pivotal issue for them and I think they suffered as a result of it so the bottom line is because this plan to take him by surprise take him on our terms because that wasn't approved it denied those opportunities yes it did things occurred on that day that I don't understand to this day does that mean you're confused about what was planned what wasn't yes it doesn't mean that certainly I believe on the day we we didn't as a collective play how we trained things were done differently than you we used to yes what we do is is simple in the terms of you don't have to make things up you just pretty much run off a checklist at 203 am more than sixteen hours into the siege six more hostages make a dramatic escape it would be the first time manas fires his shotgun you saw that well I heard it doesn't get much worse from a hostage point of view when you see that do you know things have changed well I mean I speculated that he was thinking he's really now lost control mark and his team were on full alert scoping for Moniz but the night deteriorates quickly and within minutes the gunman forces hostage Tori Johnson to his knees [Music] you saw Tori on his knees hands behind his head you reported that yes well any any significant change inside the premises is something that has to be communicated to the command post yeah so there was conjecture as to whether that transmission was received in the command post hmm but I'm certain I made it shockingly in this horrific moment perhaps the most critical information of the night never got through to the police commanders standby standby all teams over hostage put to his knees inside what is it information that you thought might change things yes so if it didn't get there that's deeply disappointing yes he's very much there for five long terrible minutes all mark can see is Tory on his knees but he can't see Mona's suddenly mark he is a sick and shot Manas has fired his gun again but at no.1 and you see something happen with Tory well he flinched I definitely saw Tory flinch and his body was engulfed by our orange flash of light which I believed was the muzzle flash of the shotgun Tory comes back up he sits back up doesn't turn around doesn't attempt to get eyes on - or what he was doing or doesn't attempt to look for an opportunity to charge him or rush him I'll get the gun it was it was quite remarkable it was like he was 6 resigned to his fate that he's that he saw had resigned itself to leaving his body at that time [Music] the third shot rings out did you see that I saw the results of it and that's when Tori died coming up I believe Tori was a preventable death you knew you could have done it we could've save the hostages putting a policeman's plan to the test do we need to consider the angle of the glass given that you're on the first floor the experiment that shows that's what we trained for wasn't our we didn't have to be creative that's next on the 60 Minutes Chief Police sniper Mark Davidson has just witnessed the execution of hostage Tori Johnson he's powerless to do anything other than radio the police command console James y window to hostage down hostage down repeated a number of times down hostage down because there was a pause in the radio after I said it initially and I was wanting to make sure that I would been heard and then it was clear someone had been killed and they needed to go the Lindt cafe siege ended when the gunman man Haron moni's was taken down in a hail of police bullets but two hostages Tori Johnson and Katrina Dawson had lost their lives Australians were shattered and shocked by what they had witnessed and Mark began to struggle with the outcome the bottom line is for you that you knew you could have done it we could have saved the hostages we could have saved Tori at least in that that's the heartbeat in my opinion I believe Tori was a preventable death believing he could have saved the lives of hostages has caused mark enormous grief but there have been questions of whether it was truly possible whether the snipers could have ever taken an accurate shot through two panes of glass did that concern you yes definitely he wanted the projectile to travel some distance to become more stable in flight and contacting something heavy like glass at the muzzle end is particularly problematic so shooting through the first pane of glass is a concern of course you can't guarantee its projection to the second kind of glass very unreliable that means what you have to break the glass that means where possible we need to get a hole in the glass at the far end mark had a plan it involved two snipers one to blast a hole through the bank glass the other two almost simultaneously take the shot at Manas and it was what we trained for so it wasn't hard we didn't have to be creative necessarily we were just going through what we knew we had to do and what you believed would work if you had to do it that's right yes but to ensure the target is totally debilitated the snipers shot needs to be chillingly exact you shoot them through the brainstem I would just drop literally in a heap which is what we want to achieve if we do take a shot it's under the nose well if you're looking at someone front on that would be under the nose it's a fairly precise shot to take isn't it yeah well that's what we trained for on a rural property in Victoria we put marks plan to the test recreating the challenge Mark and his team faced that night requires meticulous planning do we need to consider the angle of the glass given that you're on the first floor it's firing slightly down ballistics expert venue prepares the site there's our target how would that have been orientated so the the perspective that I had was pretty close to that's coming in this perspective year so the brain stem shot would have been sort of back of the ear the gun power from these safety Universal receivers is equal to the weapons Marc and his team would have used I just need to make a clear passage for the project all the postures yeah that should do that without any trouble and the two panes of glass like that at the Westpac Bank and the Lindt cafe are placed the same 59 meters apart we can actually check our range so we should be set up exactly on 59 meters yeah it looks really good mark even spots the target on the glass just as was done on the night yeah we're good to go excellent thank you and it's all to be recorded by a high-speed camera to capture the impact [Music] so it's just chambered both rounds and they're locked in to battery now which means said the bolts locked it is a tense moment 3 2 1 wow that's perfect because on the second shot I didn't see any glass coming out from the window that means the rifle round clearly passed through the hole so it's exactly how it's meant to occur the sniper bullet travels at just under a thousand meters a second with devastating impact what is extraordinary for me is the precision is one whole and two gunshots yeah that's the exact idea it's you got the shotgun round the 12-gauge round making a large hole and through that hole we're threading the rifle round which is a much smaller projectile but travelling a lot faster and this is the one that we want to do the business for us sir the second shot is very close behind the first one yes you don't you want them to be close together because you don't want the first one alerting the gunmen inside the premises or will - in this case so we want them to be following close to behind one another that's right here okay so that's a good result that's that's a great result it is as mark believes it could have been on the night of the siege by breaching the glass directly in front of him at the Westpac Bank that's a perfect shot to clear out a passage for the bullet the the crazing effect that you can see like the starburst effect is expected you may think it would cause a problem in terms of viewing through the sniper scope but because you're focused so far away you're not focused at this point you're focused way through the glass that shouldn't come up too much when you look in the magnified scope and looking through the sniper scope it is indeed a clearer view to the target so you can't see the glass in front of you right now at all this is the true test I guess to see exactly where you hit but it's at the other end at what would have been the Lindt cafe that really counts yeah well we can see that around has passed cleanly through the window with there are too many troubles and hit the target the shot through the cafe glass is direct and lethal to the target you say the entry point there yep and that's the effects of what's called hydrostatic shock which is basically the energy hitting the soft tissue and spreading I mean it's clear that the impact would have been devastating undoubtedly if this was man - he would be dead for sure does it reinforce your confidence it's always nice to carry out the the testing and the experiment in this in this manner in terms of reinforcing but we were confident we know what we're capable of and we try to shoot within those capabilities yeah that's the whole point of practicing and learning a craft yeah but in the end knowing what he could have done but didn't gives mark little joy you knew you could have taken him out if you had the right information of course there was an achievable option to shoot and kill him and save sausages at that time it's upsetting because that's what were there for coming up I started adding up flashbacks the agony of failure sorry consignment suit by remembering that story is that that story I lost friends incredible courage sorry still behind because he always put everyone first that's next on 16 it's been a long and rough journey for mark Davidson since the Lindt cafe siege the devastation of watching the execution of hostage Tori Johnson and being powerless to do anything about it has haunted him for years initially there was a immense amount of guilt that I had even though you knew what you were having to deal with you carried guilt guilts not always completely rational you know and it's a magnified with the benefit of hindsight [Music] I started having flashbacks of Tori dying over and over to the point where just became absolutely exhausting this would occur at any time all day did you know why this was happening I mean not we do awareness training in psychological symptoms and PTSD so I assume that that was that was what was Thai starting to take effect but you don't really want to admit it you want to you want to think that you're stronger than that marks post-traumatic stress disorder was both overwhelming and debilitating and that's exactly how it's also been for hostage parlo Vassallo it's a it's a struggle you have better days and mothers but that's the way it is it's terrible though to think that you feel traumatized and somebody who was trying to help you feels traumatized it's a terrible outcome isn't it it is it is but that's that's the reality when you're there in the heart of it and people die that's the reality and you can't you know you can't change that feeling really both Paolo and Mark share the same nightmare but from different perspectives mark as the sniper who felt powerless to act and Paulo the hostage and Tory Johnson's friend who had prayed that he would it is a tough and emotional meeting I'm sorry I couldn't save him no I wished I could were desperately desperately searching the windows Montoya was killed just four games to same on us another opportunity this is hard for Paolo to hear because he was so close to Torre about you know of course it is it kills me to know yeah his behavior was it was quite remarkable because he didn't make any attempt to turn around or look for an opportunity to grab the gun from on us or or escape himself he just sat there like a statue and that's remarkably brave that story so there's people that it's funny there's a lot of people that come up to means or Tori died because he felt like he had to stay behind because he wasn't manager no no Tori's still behind because that was Tori he always put everyone first and I believe I believe after watching what I watched I believe that with my whole heart [Music] coming up if God forbid it happened tomorrow learning valuable lessons and it would be brought to a swift conclusion and how to heal you've had to leave your job though not fit to do that work anymore a wounded sniper is there anything you wish you could have changed or done differently that's next on 60 minutes [Music] it's taken years for Mark Davidson to feel free for so long the New South Wales police chief sniper carried a terrible burden when hostages Tori Johnson and Katrina Dawson died in the Lindt cafe siege but today that guilt is finally lifting it's real that guilt I was there and I was heavy but on past that now you've processed the day you've processed your behavior on the day and the opportunities is their residual disappointment about what happened or what didn't happen yes there is definitely and that means you feel that it could have turned out differently essentially that's the bottom line mark is now rebuilding his life spending time with his dad who understands more than most what his son has been through both have been police officers and both were snipers it was a dreadful day for everyone but I guess we didn't expect one of the victims would be your son I could tell when I first spoke to him that night and he was carrying some baggage from it what do you say to your son okay tell him he did everything he could and I think you did you've had to leave your job though yeah I was medically discharged I'm not fit to do that work anymore how difficult is that it's hard it was more career I didn't want to leave I don't know how to do anything else but toll learn something it's just the end of our chapter not not the end so I know what the new Chuck that's gonna be this point maybe I'll be a yoga teacher mark Davidson did his best but it's taken years for him to accept that [Music] today all he's hoping is that should it happen again others will be able to do better [Music] we're in a different time now if God forbid it happened tomorrow I think it would be dealt with very differently and it would be brought to a swift conclusion and if that meant a sniper taking a shot yes is there anything you wish you could have changed or done differently that's a good question yeah there is things that I've would've liked to have done differently but it's the past and I can't change I can just hope that we the collective of learned important lessons from it and we minimize the chance of it happening again the New South Wales Police has admitted it got it wrong on the night of the siege and officers should have resolved the situation sooner Commissioner McCullough says in the event of future terrorist attacks police will intervene earlier legislation in New South Wales has also been passed giving police the ability to use greater force during terrorist incidents hello I'm Liz Hayes thanks for watching to keep up with the latest from 60 minutes Australia make sure you subscribe to our Channel you can also download the 9 now app for full episodes and other exclusives 60 minutes content

Channel: 60 Minutes Australia

Views: 1,702,536

Rating: 4.6453691 out of 5

Keywords: 60 Minutes, 60 Minutes Australia, Liz Hayes, Charles Wooley, Tara Brown, Liam Bartlett, Allison Langdon, Ellen Fanning, Karl Stefanovic, Ray Martin, Jana Wendt, Jeff McMullen, Jennifer Byrne, Mike Munro, Richard Carleton, Tracey Curro, Peter Harvey, George Negus, Ian Leslie, Sarah Abo, Sydney Lindt Cafe, sydney siege, sniper, police, terrorist, Man Haron Monis, Mark Davidson, Tori Johnson, katrina dawson, NSW police, federal police

Id: ukyE4rdg7Zg

Length: 43min 54sec (2634 seconds)

Published: Sun Sep 29 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/[deleted]]

at first, looking at the face, I thought that was dr Phil lol

[u/art_hoez]

Looks like Liam neeson