EWTN LIVE - 2015.1.21 - Tim Staples

many Protestants and a lot of Catholics don't understand the role that God wants the Blessed Virgin Mary to play in our lives tonight we'll talk about how what we believe about Mary is essential to a saving faith in Jesus so please stay with us thank you thank you very much and welcome I'm father Mitch Pacwa and welcome to EWTN live where we bring you guests from all over the world before we get to our guests one mission that today is the feast of st. Agnes she was born in 291 this was a time during the Diocletian persecution was the last persecution of the church but it was also the most vicious and der it was also the most widespread and when she was only 12 maybe 13 in the year 3 or 4 she was told to marry somebody there are some various pagan men she wouldn't she wanted to remain a virgin she didn't want to marry these men especially since they were not Christians they tried to force her into life in a brothel um various stories happen now she didn't have to do that but then they tried to burn her at the stake it didn't work finally they cut her head off and so she was able to preserve her own integrity and her faith and it's important for us to keep in mind that such things are still going on two girls and two boys two adults who prefer to be executed rather than deny their faith in Nigeria Syria Iraq Pakistan and many other countries they're being try to force them and they're standing firm we have to look at these new martyrs who follow st. agnus example as being examples for us to take our faith seriously and our own lies where we have a lot more freedom than they do tonight we have a guest it's not from all over the world but he comes from at least California he was a fun as Christian who after a stint in the Marine Corp enrolled in Jimmy Swaggart Bible College over in the great town of Baton Rouge Louisiana he became a youth minister in the Assemblies of God Church so for him to now answer questions each day about the Catholic faith through his work at Catholic Answers is no small step here to help us learn more about the mother of our Lord Jesus please welcome the director of apologetics and evangelization at Catholic Answers and as well as the author of a new book called behold your mother a biblical and historical defense of the merit Marian doctrines please welcome mr. Tim staples Tim is so good to have you here it's great to be with you you and I go back to you don't we we sure do you know folks are surprised when I tell them I knew you before I was Catholic that's right that's right and it's been some journey you know to help people understand what this book and writing this book means tell them about some of your own struggles not only with Catholicism but also serious struggles with understanding and accepting the role of the Blessed Mother you know I I often say somewhat jokingly that if you told me about 30 years ago that one day I'd be traveling the world defending the Catholic faith I would have tried to cast a demon out of you and that's really not a joke no no but I was a Pentecostal and I did not make any bones about it I believe that the Catholic Church was not Christian you guys are polytheists because you believe Mary's God you kneel the statues and so forth so I I was a long way away from Catholicism but Mary in particular was was the the thing when I refer to the Marian doctrines not to the person of Mary but to the doctrines I I had the most animosity toward because I believed in my heart of hearts that the beliefs the Catholic Church were teaching about Mary was leading people away from Jesus did you have any problem with praying to Mary that from the bother you would that was one of the the key reasons why I thought you guys were crazy I mean to pray to anyone other than God to me was blasphemy so you can imagine now you mentioned I served in the Marine Corps it was really started by an encounter with a fellow marine named sergeant Matt doula that got me started I I as soon as I found out he was Catholic I'm ready to convert him but I was in for a surprise because this was the first Catholic I ever met who really knew his Bible knew his faith he knew history and he engaged me and that led to about a two-year intensive study where father I was going to write the book and all books to demonstrate the Catholic Church fall false nobody's done that before and in the process of studying to refute the Catholic faith that's how I became Catholic I think it's important to note that Matt's knowledge of Scripture yeah Church teaching in history really meant something useful it engaged you and you know you ran into a few difficult now you you also thought that Walter Martin is gonna be pretty good at pause and he would be able to convince Matthew right that's right there was this was back in 1986 when I was stationed at Quantico in Quantico Virginia that I was engaged in this year-long battle with Matt Dula and just so happened we got wind that there was a debate going on between my mentor from afar as I call him dr. Walter Martin only met him personally once I know you became good friends with him but he was somebody that I really looked up to read his books he was one of the great apologist against various cults and occult things of types and a wonderful man yes a man who really did love Jesus so I I hear that there's gonna be this debate between Walter Martin and some crazy Jesuit happened to be father Mitch Pacwa and so I thought oh great because I'm I'm getting confused by this Catholic stuff I'm reading all these Catholic books and I'm seeing some truth and so dr. Martin was going to come to the rescue and destroy this father Pacwa guy and and set me straight but things didn't go according to plan because in that debate you made some points there that I could not shake in particular when it came to the Blessed Virgin Mary and the mother of God and there were there are other things the calling priest father I thought you just really got some zingers in there that he couldn't respond to and so that really intensified my study but it was Mary in particular father that was the sort of the obstacle for me so when you began to break down that wall and it was through the mother of God I knew I was in trouble I had to study more and the more I studied the more I found in really father that's where this book comes from I had a passion to study this in order to disprove it but as I began to see the truth of the Blessed Virgin Mary I fell in love with her and I began to see that in the Blessed Virgin Mary we see as as you prayed earlier when we were praying before coming on the air we see God revealed to us she reveals the Trinity to us she reveals who Jesus as to us and she also had discovered reveals who we are as well and in that book I go through the six Marian doctrines and one thing I really want to emphasize is this is not only an exhaustive apologetic where we answer as you and your blurb say just about every conceivable question that's a sore objection to the Blessed Virgin Mary but we also I think very importantly point out why each one of these doctrines is crucial for our spiritual lives and so we need to understand as Catholic we need to evangelize and don't be afraid to talk about the Blessed Virgin Mary some shy away the Catechism of the Catholic Church in paragraph 9 71 tells us that devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is intrinsic to Christian worship this is something we need to know doctrinally we need to know her personally and we need to share I did a couple Bible studies one on Mary one on the mass and I pointed out something that struck me you know I'm by ritual in the Maronite Rite I've celebrated console abraded liturgies in a number of other rites and the Byzantine rites the Coptic right the Armenians and you know I've been to that the Syria Catholics the Chaldean Catholics all the milk Heights so I've been to all these liturgies something I noticed in all the eastern liturgies including the Eastern Orthodox Rite is that every Eucharistic prayer includes a mention of Mary and it's only in the churches that recognize the priesthood going back to the Apostles yes and that the mass or that the Divine Liturgy is the representation of Christ's death on Calvary in his resurrection and since Mary was at the cross you can't celebrate the representation of Calvary without her whereas all the denominations that deny the real presence omit mention of her in another liturgies absolutely now as Padre Pio who said if you want to receive our Lord well in the Eucharist you must first kneel with the Blessed Virgin Mary at the foot of the cross one of the more recent titles of the Blessed Virgin Mary is mother of the Eucharist yes you know in the in the book I talk about how that the church has developed in our understanding never changing anything substantially but at the end of writing this book father I oh my goodness I'm gonna have to write another one because there's so much in the afterword I talked about that just diving into that sort of newer title of the Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of the Eucharist it's so profound because there there's a connection to our everyday lives and understanding that Mary's role in God's plan of salvation and in our lives is an ongoing reality she's with us every time we receive the Eucharist yeah I don't think that it's an accident but it is part of the graces God gives that one of the fastest-growing orders of religious women are the Dominican Sisters of Our Lady Mother of the Eucharist I've met them ya know um there's one other part of your story that I always liked about you know you coming to that point of you accepting Marian the way you put it was Tommy yes I was actually at Jimmy Swaggart Bible College and that's another part of the story I I went to Jimmy Swaggart Bible College really to save my Protestantism I had been studying Catholicism coming to a lot of truth this was after your debate and reading I was reading incessantly Catholic books councils you know Lightfoot's Apostolic fathers OTT you name it I'm reading it trying to disprove this stuff so I go to Jimmy Swaggart Bible College because hey he I heard has a former Catholic priest teaching there so assume Cuba wasn't yes he was yeah unfortunately I have heard I'm not sure that he may have passed away I hope not but Andrew Cara Degas I'll never forget him so here I'm gonna go to Jimmy Swaggart Bible College I'll get the dirt on Catholicism clear this stuff out of my mind and get back to being a good old Pentecostal preacher well that didn't work because each class I went into at Jimmy Swaggart Bible College whether it was Bible doctrines or dispensational truths or Old Testament survey new Tesman I remember those classes professors would say something about Catholicism of course we were Protestants right what are we protesting against right you guys so you know I don't fault them for that but I found myself Father raising my hand in class and defending the Catholic faith I'm saying excuse me professor because they were often misrepresenting what the Catholic Church teaches and I found the more I defended the more Catholic I was becoming and it was scaring me until finally brother Swaggart himself sent a message because word got all over the school word got back to brother Swaggart that you got a problem on your hands here this guy's about to become Catholic and he's confusing a lot of students and so I got word from brother Swaggart that I had to appear before this former priest you know to explain myself and and to see what in the world is going on so it was really about an hour-and-a-half dialogue with with brother Cara degas that was so eye-opening to me he threw out really it was disturbing some of the basic errors and myths that he threw at me and I was able to respond and over that hour-and-a-half father it was almost like I was being solidified in my Catholicism but I didn't want to be I truly wanted to find that the Catholic Church was false well it was leaving his office I remember feeling about as alone as I've ever felt because I was like a man without a church I knew I wasn't Protestant anymore I knew I didn't want to be Catholic I even tried to be Orthodox but the Pope got in the way and so here I was and Father it was the Blessed Virgin Mary and this is how it happened I was up in my dorm room and I had been arguing with students all day I'm exhausted and I went to the prayer room and a Jimmy Swaggart Bible College in the dorms on each level there were prayer rooms and so I went in there and I just began to weep and for the first time in my life I prayed to a saint and not just a saint but to my mama in heaven and all I said father and you can imagine the doubts rushing and as I go to pray to the Blessed Mother Lord is this the devil am I being deceived and I just said Mary I don't know what I'm saying here I don't even know if I'm doing this right because I'm not sure what you're supposed to do but I said mama please help me all I said father and I will tell you and on Judgment Day you'll know this is true the Lord touched my heart and I know that it was through the intercession the Blessed Mother it was like the faith moved from my head to my heart and I was Catholic I remember you one time describing that as accepting the Blessed Mother as your personal mother that's right it's so profoundly true it's realizing and you know father there's so many there's millions out there who are kind of half orphans yeah they have God as their father and even some of them understand Church as a mother but they don't understand they have a mother in heaven and they also don't you know this is one of the important things I think about this book behold your mother because I talk about how the Blessed Virgin Mary is just the most profound example of what we all need to know as Christians we need each other right Jesus designed it that way there's no me and Jesus theology like I learned as a Protestant in Sacred Scripture st. Paul says in first Corinthians 12 21 can I say to the hand I have no need of thee can the head say to the foot I have no need of thee of course not we need each other we are instruments of God st. Paul I'll throw out another verse here father you know I don't like to quote verses the scripture but first Corinthians chapter 3 verse 5 st. Paul says what is Paul what is Apollo's but instruments whereby you have come to believe and that's why you could say in verse 9 we are co-laborers with Christ I think all of us need to understand that we have a role to play in each other salvation Mary is just the ultimate example of that because you and I father bring Jesus to each other Jesus to these folks Jesus to those watching Mary brought the whole Jesus to the whole world and uniquely so that's why I say in the book in Mary we see our own dignity as well as we see who God is now given that you went through this personal change in no personal encounter with the Blessed Mother there's also a series of doctrines that and the rule of doctrine is important lot of people try to say oh it's a sudden you had no right it fills in some important aspects which of the doctrines did you think were most important to start covering in terms of opening up dialogue about the Blessed Mother right for the book we're talking about yes yeah for me and a lot of the book father is really you know I like the way you mentioned I have street cred there in the blurb you gave because a lot of it is based on my own experience of coming to the faith as well as 21 years as a professional apologist I've dealt with about every question you can imagine coming about the Blessed Virgin Mary but I find generally speaking that folks have the most problem with Mary without sin and then the assumption those two are kind of neck and neck but you know with Mary without Santa me to me you guys are you kidding me you're gonna say Mary's without sin when Romans 3:23 says all of sin right I used to say to Catholic what part all don't you understand right or 1st John 1:8 right if any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him I think that's crucial because and and I'll say something else that our Protestant brothers and members of various cults or quasi Christian sects or they have real questions that deserve to be answered exactly and you know this is all of sin but I'm gonna give some kudos here too to Matt Dooley because I'll never forget when I shared that with him and it always worked with Catholics right all have sinned I mean what and the Catholic usually would whimper away but he responded to me you ever heard of the the term you know punching with angles right in boxing it's the punch he never sees that knocks a man Matt knew had a punch with angles his response was father he said Tim you're the first Christian I've ever met who believed Jesus was a sinner right and I'm going wait a minute I didn't say Jesus was it was he fully man yes well if any man says he has no sin he's a liar wouldn't that include Christ that got me thinking now of course my response was well Hebrews 4:15 right it says he was tempted on all points yet without sin it says he's an exception and Matt said to me also there are exceptions are there and I said well that's just one and then he launches in to show me that both first John 1:8 and Romans 3:23 are talking about personal sin not original sin Paul will deal with that in Romans 5:12 think about it have babies in the womb committed personal sin have those with serious mental challenges they can't commit sin because you have to know what you're about to commit is a sin and freely engaged in that act and so he says Tim there's millions of exceptions and of course this is getting the wheels turning for me but then of course my next point is well okay I I guess I got to give you that but you can't show me Marys without sin and that's when he launched into Mary full of grace in fact the first part of that book full of grace Ark of the Covenant knew Eve that I had never encountered before showing me in Sacred Scripture as well as history and much much more in fact I get in the book I give eight biblical reasons why Mary is without sin and father I think folks watching right now need to understand that there are millions of folks out there who have never heard of what we're talking about right here but Mary as the Ark of what mary is the new eve what are you talking about and yet it is so richly and deeply biblical yeah it's um one of my favorite churches in the Holy Land yeah is Our Lady the Ark of the Covenant Church in Abu gosh yeah have you ever been I have not well it's it's built over the place where the Ark of the Covenant rested until David brought it into Jerusalem remember I went to but shemish and the people looked inside it and they died yes and then they said we don't want this and so they sent it to what's now called above gosh and it stayed there for a number of years until David brought it in yeah so the so they've built a church there's a Byzantine church now there's a new church over the place yeah and it's just such a marvelous idea where John the Baptist in the womb leaps it doesn't say he moves most women describe how the baby is turning and moving this they said leaps and the word that is used as good deeds a scaritage that means to leap like a lamb jumps off and it's even used in one of the Greek translations of the Old Testament for David right yeah it's seen before the ark incredible leaps for joy right and when I saw these parallels father I don't know if I've ever told you this part of the story but in the book I talk about it we just happened to be going through a study of doctor RC Sproles book the holiness of God at my Assembly of God Church there was a video series and the book series RC sprawl was one of the really great theologians of the evangelical church oh yeah Calvinists and a brilliant man a great presenter a great teacher well in the hoist of God there's a section on the Ark of the Covenant and he goes through you know the story of oz' and how when the ark was being brought in in that triumphant procession Aza who was a KOA thought he's supposed to be carrying it holding on to those wooden staves overlaying with gold so he doesn't touch the actual Ark as you know numbers chapter 4 says if you touch it you die right and you know the story they'd put the ark up on some oxen it gets ready to fall aza being good guy says I can't let the ark fault he reaches out to steady it he touches it God kills him why is that well dr. Sproul being a Calvinist of course he emphasizes here why is it that aza was killed and dr. Sproul says he was presumptuous he thought he was cleaner than the dirt sproule says dirt obeys God's law pour water on it it becomes mud right it's man that sins and he said man can't touch it not not the dirt and when Matt doula began to teach me about the Blessed Virgin Mary being that Ark and the fact that second Samuel 69 which I just been studying is quoted by Elizabeth almost verbatim Who am I that the mother of my lord should come to me just as David said Who am I that the Ark of the Lord should come unto me it rocked my world because I had to ask myself the question of course Matt put it to me what would happen if the ark came to life if the ark was human would we say that the Ark was just as sinful as Aza who touched it and died things like that father just rocked my world and I start to see oh my goodness Mary is specially holy in order to be the true Ark of the Covenant that didn't carry manna and the Ten Commandments and Aaron's rod which were types of Christ she carried the real deal this had men inside her womb oh my goodness and this has implications of course for the Makah conception the Assumption revelation 11 19 we see the ark in heaven along with the temple what or who is the temple but Jesus Christ and in John's theology of course well then what is the Ark of the Covenant there in revelation 11 19 but Mary oh my goodness father I was off to the races yeah in its you know this is reasons I think what you said before you know the brothers and sisters in these different Protestant churches you know truly love God they truly love Jesus they are committed to what's true yeah and we can't say well oh I got I've heard priests dismiss the issues well that's just about community don't worry about the doctrines right right right they have a right to have us explain when they don't understand something disagree we have a they have a right to hear what we believe if they disagree with it that's gonna be something else but they have a right to hear answers to their objections absolutely and this is one of the reasons I gave my endorsement to your book you presented and laid out very very clearly with multiple reasons to explain that that explained these doctrines of our lady yeah and that's that's one things I love about you know what father you hit on something so important I'm reminded of Pope Paul the sixth great apostolic exhortation evangelii Nancy on D yes when in that great document which I think is about the most complete document on evangelism I've ever read and did his st. John Paul loved it yeah it was it all the time but he makes the point you know all the talk after the Council of the possibility of salvation for those who don't have a formal relationship with the church which we know is true you can have a salvific relationship with the church without you know being on the register at a parish and all that controversy Pope Paul the sixth says at one point yes it is true that people can possibly be we're not the judge right God is but they can possibly be saved if we don't preach to them but the real question is can we be saved if we do if we don't and if we don't give the reasons for our hope and that's President Peter said and that's precisely what st. Paul says to a young Bishop that he himself had ordained Timothy in 1st Timothy 4:16 take heed unto yourself and unto the doctrine for in so doing you will both save yourself and them that hear thee we've got to take a break we're gonna come back in just a couple minutes so please stay with us and we'll continue on some questions and talking to Tim staples about his new book behold your mother thank you welcome back first don't want to invite you to come on down here if you can make a trip down it's beautiful Irondale Alabama we'd love to have you in our studio artists like these nice folks have done all the way from Colorado Canada and Ohio and if you come as a group or as individuals or as families love to have you just come take our pilgrimage department at two zero five two seven one two nine six six or go to the web site ewtn.com give you all kind of information about when shows are available and also let you know I'll place the stay place to eat and all that good stuff I got some good barbecue dough yes oh wow so come on down ready for some questions I would love to answers giddyap Mill where are you from Fort recovery Ohio good every year welcome question um I have a question about why in some parishes even are in our own community why there's in some churches represent Mary the Blessed Virgin more than other churches sure you know it's a good question and often it's because of perhaps the patron of that particular parish we have right down the street from where my wife and I live in San Diego or Our Lady of Grace if you have a parish that has a patron like that you can expect to see some statuary and such that reflects that so there's all you know one thing I I think that's important for all of us to understand is the Catholic Church is not the monolith that so often we're accused of being you know that everything is just automatically laid out and you know cookie cutter churches by command of the Pope and you can't take you have to take two steps and not three you know there is such a beauty in the diversity that we find in the Catholic Church there's such a variety of spirituality say we got a Jesuit sitting here right and Dominicans and Franciscans and they have different theological ways of looking at things sometimes within certain boundaries as well as different spirituality so it shouldn't be a surprise really that we see parishes that reflect different emphases depending upon what the local community is is emphasizing right also I think to there was a period when a certain type of acumen ISM was done by which say well look we can learn to get along with non Catholics and we'll remove the things that really bothers them but that really didn't go very far so that wasn't such a good technique we have to deal with the differences and seek what is true rather than compromise you know father that's what the churches and councils very clear on you know I when I first came into the church I was kind of guarded I don't know the Holy Spirit protected me because I came in the church in Arlington Virginia where I mean the the the pres better it there is just a handsome group of men on fire for the Lord it's a wonderful and so I was kind of you know every church I went into there beautiful and heard homilies that were electrifying I mean I'm going wow this is the Catholic Church what I got outside of the boundaries there of Arlington I saw no it's not like that everywhere and you're right father and it's unfortunate that some of what came out of the council really did not come from the council but the you know we call it the spirit of vatican ii sometimes making it though yeah and that spirit wasn't necessarily the Holy Spirit you know that rosary well you know that's antiquated you know and I think when they said that the council got rid of devotion to Mary yeah when in fact there's a whole chapter on the Blessed Mother in lumen gentium oh the most developed theology on Mary of any ecumenical council by far absolutely beautiful but that that myth permeated the United States the Western world in particular and so you did see this kind of getting rid of statues getting rid of this and that no granted the council said we need to avoid extremes when it comes to devotion of us a Virgin Mary but the Rosary is not an extreme right this is what we believe is Catholics and by the way don't you agree father that the the younger priests today are restoring what the cankerworm ate I can see all over this country know so many of the younger priests very much have a strong devotion to Our Lady yeah many of them lead and pray I know at my parish are pastors a little bit older than I but you know in our parish the priests deacons and sub deacons lead the Rosary before the 10:30 mass every Sunday right between meso well where are you from Fort Wayne Indiana good to have you here welcome thank you in question my question is and does down in Guatemala and it seemed as though their culture they worship Our Lady of Guadalupe more so than even Jesus in their churches and I was wondering how that all right that would be a big no-no you know it's interesting when you use the term worship you know lumen gentium paragraph 65 for example talks about Mary when she is the object of worship worship she leads us to Jesus and people worship what we have a language problem here when we use the term worship as you know Father in Latin we make the distinction between latria which comes from the Greek latria comes down as latria in Latin which is the adoration we say now in English the adoration that's due God alone right and we have Dhulia which is the honor that is given to the Saints hyper Dhulia you know in the tradition is given to Mary proto do Liautaud st. Joseph but this is a an essentially different kind of honor there's a quality not just a qualitative but an essential difference because we do not quote unquote worship Mary in the sense that we worship God so when God is uncreated he is without beginning he is not any kind of a creature and only he can be adored and you know went what I say the father to my Protestant friends who say you may say that but in practice you guys you know adore marry go to mass I challenge you go to mass anywhere in the world and what you're gonna see is clearly the Holy Sacrifice mass being offered to God the Father in Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit in any mention of the Saints in the liturgy is on the periphery that is the act of adoration of Catholics and there we demonstrate that we adore God alone but I want to mention to this young woman here that sometimes the expressions that are given to Our Lady in different cultures now granted the church has to watch because sometimes you can go too far and start to do things that are wrong and we do see that sometimes down south of California but I do think also father a lot of times expressions are misconstrued especially by we in the United States and in Britain where let's face it our culture's have become cold we have become very cold you know if st. Paul we're to come today and talk about us giving each other the kiss of peace you know we hear saying you better get away from me don't be kissing me brother but understand the Catholic tradition comes right out of Sacred Scripture and tradition of the first century and we don't change because Western civilization becomes cold we still express our love and devotion to great members of the body of Christ we hug them we kiss them and that may mean not just father who sit in here but images as well of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Joseph with whom as we talked about we have relationships and we honor them for the great men and women they are you know what I'll tell you something I have in my wallet a picture of my wife and kids and when I'm away from my wife and kids I will kiss that picture before I go to bed now oh my goodness am i worshipping my wife and my kids because I kissed no I'm I'm kissing that picture because I love them and that's why we show expressions of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary she's our mother she gave us Jesus and we express our and sometimes father those expressions can be misconstrued as if we're adoring her as a goddess just a friend of mine is half Greek and when one of his Greek uncle's died his it became more expressive than we normally see she has when they lowered the casket into the grave she jumped on the casket and started pounding it with their fists how can you leave me so that we wouldn't see that in most Anglo kind of culture but there are some cultures that are very demonstrative and you know you have to make those cultural translations in facts to understand them on their terms ma'am were you from Marietta Ohio good to have you here welcome in your question my question is I had the opportunity to be in the Basilica in Washington DC and I was taken aback by all of the different little alcoves and all the different representations of the Blessed Virgin Mary that the different cultures prayed to yeah it's quite beautiful and in fact father as you know when our Blessed Mother appears if she's appearing in a key to Japan she's Japanese she's appearing Our Lady Guadalupe she's Indian she's you know looks Indian and such it's not that you know Mary was not 2,000 years ago a real Jewish person it's that she condescends doesn't she when she appears to us in order for us to understand she's the mother of all of us she is just as much the mother of those in Japan as she is our mother and of course she has this little added benefit of being in heaven where we'll be able to do things father and I were talking about earlier like passing through walls and traveling at the speed of thought as st. Thomas Aquinas you know talks about so she has the ability to do that kind of like our Lord and in mark 16 12 when he appears to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus it says he appeared in another form well he can do that and so will we be able to do that when we have our glorified bodies and so that's how the Blessed Virgin Mary will appear looking differently because of the different people she's appearing to her something similar is also in Nazareth in the Holy Land at the Church of the Annunciation you know it's in all these different countries just want to express this you know their love for her and again it's the same thing even more diverse than at the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Washington you see the the image of the one of the prettiest is of from Japan the Japanese Catholics gave this absolutely exquisite mosaic yeah well the Blessed Mother well from Thailand they have her wearing no the pants and and short jacket and blouse that they wear in Thailand in carrying Jesus you know look like a little time maybe in all these other cultures wearing Ukrainian clothes and those so on and so on so it's very very much how every culture you know that's Catholic expresses this love for her and that's not a weakness as it it's not a weakness it's it's part of the essence of what it means to be Catholic we really are universal yeah you have another question well were you from Dayton Ohio they know how good to have you with your question I get a question on Pentecostals and Baptists what would you tell them of who the Blessed Virgin Mary is that is a wonderful question and I love the way you said Baptists and Pentecostal because I was both I joke I was about to coastal you know that's so dr. Walter Martin used to call themselves but what what I like to do I just generally speaking when it comes to evangelization I like to say the folks you've got a scratch where it itches you know and and the way you find out where somebody's itching is you ask them because they're the only ones that know and so I like to look through what there question exactly and often though if I can direct the conversation I'd like to begin with Mary as the mother of God because especially among Baptists and Pentecostals now our you know we call liturgical or higher Protestant brothers and sisters will agree with us generally speaking that Mary's a mother of God they don't see all the theological implications that come from that but they'll generally understand that Mary's the mother of God but among the evangelicals and Pentecostals it is amazing what you will find and I was one of them I rejected Mary was a mother of God and so that's where it was the reason you know what this kind of gets us back to a certain debate I was talking about earlier but I I was a pretty much a follower of dr. Walter Martin when it came to this matter and Walter Martin taught that Christ is not the eternal son he's the eternal word who became the son and so Walter Martin said the whole idea of Mary the mother of God is a non-starter it's these Catholics who created this Jesus as the eternal son he's not he's the eternal word see that was little things I didn't know about Walter till some years after those debates where he did not believe that Jesus is the eternal son of God oh my goodness and and I tell you son as tapes oh yes it is and it's in his book kingdom of the cults that I have the 1977 edition and there it is in fact it's it's on page 103 of that book where we really see and I quote this in the in the book the problems that come when you deny Mary's a mother of God because all right she's not the mother of god because sonship he says does not apply to divinity it only applies to humanity right hence he gets rid of the eternal son but think about this this this is what blew my mind many years ago and helped me to realize why if you miss it on Mary you're gonna end up missing it on who God is often who Jesus is but Walter Martin says this right after saying that sonship is not Eterne or you know doesn't apply the divinity only humanity he says neither is the adjective eternal ever applied to the Father in Scripture so he says there is no eternal father and so think about this in the process of losing Mary as Mother of God Walter Martin ended up losing Jesus as the eternal son and he lost the father as eternal father and I had to ask the question 28 29 years ago Walter Martin who is God I mean in eternity and of course he says Trinity but we don't know his name we don't know the first person as father because he became a father by analogy and here oh my goodness if I was a Pentecostal I'd be jumping up and down right now and shouting because this is important Walter Martin ended up missing one of the essential reasons why Jesus came to this earth and that is to reveal God as father not by analogy the Jews already understood God has fathered by analogy but he came to reveal father God his father in the very inner life of God Father Son Holy Spirit from all eternity that's why it's important to get it right on Mary and that's why Jesus says in John 17 father sanctify them by your name that that then his name his father I've revealed your name and I will reveal it again father glorify thou me with the glory I had with thee before the world was before there was a creation we had Father Son and Holy Spirit but you know I often think and I mentioned in the book there I I kind of think that Walter Martin had a bad Christology that led to a bad mary ally i reference another modern protestant apologist dr. eric Svensson in his book evangelical answers he goes a different way it's a bad mary ology that leads to a bad Christology and i don't know if we have time to get into some of the details but let me okay let me share this with you in one part of his book he says he gives his own syllogism that you know we talked about the syllogism you know Jesus is God marries the mother of Jesus therefore mayor's mother of God he says no it'd be more accurate to say that part of Jesus is God Mary is the mother of part of Jesus the human part and then he'll turn around and say but oh I'm not you know dividing up Christ or you know and it becomes you know what father John Hardin described in his his wonderful catechism he said that without a clear marry ology Christology becomes incoherent and that's exactly what happens in dr. Erickson he's a brilliant man yeah but he ends up with this crazy Christology because he doesn't get it right on Mary in one of the things that you know that's key to this that goes back to the Council of Ephesus yes and the arguments there yes with what were they you see that women are not the mothers of natures but the mothers of persons and this was the whole issue at the Council of Ephesus Jesus is a divine person he has a fully divine nature and a full human nature that's right but Mary is the mother of his person which is a divine person you know father it doesn't mean that she was divine and created that worker made that that's no it just means her son is it is a divine person oh you touched on that in that debate and I remember that and it got me started laughing she's a month but okay that's a mint but there is a stumbling block there for many of my Protestant brothers and sisters because they think when we say mother of God well dog has dog cat has cat bird has bird God has God right but not understanding that we're not saying and I like just use the analogy of human childbirth right when my son was born did my wife and I give him his soul of course not God directly and immediately created it but does that mean for the rest of his life he has to say to me hello father of my body right no because my wife didn't give birth to a body she gave birth to a high/low morphic we say right being body soul composite one person well Mary's not the source of Jesus human soul much less his divine nature but that don't mean she's not his mom his that divine person that you spoke about in that that that gets to the essence of who Jesus Christ is exactly this is one of the other important things about your book in the throughout the tradition as a church reflected on its definitions of doctrines about Mary it came to be seen that this was not primarily doctrines for the sake of mere herself yes but about understand Christ the Trinity the church grace cetera absolutely and she gained the title destroyer of heresies because as you've said yes understanding the role of the Blessed Mother theologically helps to destroy heresies not only about her but about Christ and about God I love the way lumen gentium 65 puts it in the life and person of the Blessed Virgin Mary we find re-echoed that means in her very being all of the most important doctrines of the faith that says it all doesn't it yep yep and this is another aspect I in the very first radio show ever did yeah a lady said why do Catholics pray to Mary I'm sick I don't go to the doctor's mother I go to the doctor and I said ma'am Jesus only refers to himself as being like a doctor in one episode when he calls Saint Matthew in DC anymore - and Matthew eight but more often he's the bridegroom of the church yes and he loves the church like a groom loves his bride in your problem lady is that you don't like our mother-in-law and this gets at another side that you know understanding that relationship learn about your wife through your in-laws Yeah right yes absolutely your wife learns a lot about you through your siblings and family and so on we learn a lot about Jesus by knowing his mother absolutely are probably the saving relationship redemption comes to Jesus Christ after no one comes to the Father except through him yes but we also learn more about him from his mother you know the way you learn from you sure and you know st. Paul in 1st Corinthians 4 14 you know he says you have ten thousand instructors in the Lord Jesus Christ you have not many fathers I've become your father for I'd begotten you through the gospel therefore brethren I urge you be imitators of me in that blasphemy wait a minute imitating Paul and call yourself father and call yourself father see God knows we need fathers we need mothers we need each other we need mentors we need disciples Mary is simply the pre-eminent of all of these I'm gonna you let folks know the book is called behold your mother a biblical and historical defense of the American Marion doctrines this is available at ewtn religious catalogue you can go to the web site ewtn.com to order it or call 1 800 850 three one six so that you can get it there I recommended it in print I recommend it verbally now also on remind you that EWTN live coverage for the Marshall life begins tomorrow at 7:30 a.m. Eastern Time with the mess for life from the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception the church said the lady was talking about followed by live coverage of the March itself please go to ewtn.com slash pro-life for even more information thank you for being with us and may Almighty God bless you the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit and please keep us in between your gas and electric bill and we'll pay our bills too thank you god bless you

Channel: EWTN

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Length: 56min 37sec (3397 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 22 2015