Eschatology Round Table Discussion

hello and welcome to our roundtable discussion on eschatology and the three views on the millennium I'm Ken Keithley I'm the director of the Busch Center for faith and culture and we're looking forward to having a lively discussion we have the three major positions represented here so I'm going to start over here with dr. Aiken say who you are and what your position is concerning the millennium and we'll work our way around okay well I'm Danny I can and I have the honor of serving as president of southeastern Seminary I also teach hermeneutics preaching and some theology and I will be representing the premillennial perspective both I guess in its absence the historical pre position and in my own which is the premillennial preacher relational position not of the classic dispensational variety but the progressive dispensational for us so what do you say to those who say that progressive dispensationalists are just wimps it or not not brave enough to say that they're you know gone over to the other side I would just say that we were a little bit more wedded to the text and our charts that some of our forbearers were so enamored with okay all right all right thank you dr. Aiken dr. Merkel yes i'm ben merkel teach here at southeastern New Testament in Greek and hermeneutics I'll be representing the amillennial position which is really the term itself is really a misnomer it doesn't literally it means no millennium but we do hold to a millennium because the Bible teaches that so we've already yeah I probably want some people over with just that statement but that there's no future millennium that we're currently in the millennium now so you and a Gustin would be all millennialist and the majority of believers throughout church history so so this will be the official Roman Catholic position this would be the official position of many Baptists current and past including Baptist leaders and Baptist teachers in our seminaries okay so we have the premillennial position the amillennial position and we have mr. Darville Dennis tell us about yourself and what's your position well Otis you called me mr. doraville there are doctors doctor and doctor I have the privilege of serving under Danny akin here at southeastern as the vice president of institutional advancement and I hold to the most optimistic of all the millennial positions post mail which and the most minority position currently minority view okay Canada has been nice enough in previous semesters to invite me to teach along or at least hold a class on post millennialism in his theology 3 and I often tell the class it's not that there aren't more competent and capable men who can teach the position it's just I'm probably the only guy with campus we actually believe so I'm the post meal type and and just look forward to this so what is post meal well like I'm ill - it's a little bit of a misnomer the early Puritans would have many of which both English and American would have held to a literal thousand years in our future a golden era but more modern-day post mills are much more like the ah mills in that the millennium for us started with commenced with the resurrection or the Ascension of Christ and ends with the second coming so we modern-day post mills say we're in the millennium well tell me give us a couple of historical persons people in church history who held to the post mill position yeah you know interesting when you have this discussion with folks invariably people think well you know it's those Presbyterians that hold to either are opposed but you don't have to go too far back in Baptists history unless I'm just uh George W Truitt BHK wait a minute okay yeah BH Carol James Pettigrew boys who studied under the old Princeton school augustus strong yeah so we have our own forebears who held to this and then you get laxity over the period since you have Jonathan Edwards is how do you answer that where they'll say I'll give this to Ben and to to to the two of you a mill is a pessimistic Calvinist and a post mill is an optimistic Calvinist how is that a fair characterization or is it a caricature well I could say I'm not I don't know if I'm this optimistic as my brother here but no I don't know if that's aI don't know if that's right III think it's optimistic when you believe as Jesus said all Authority has been given to me I don't know if that leaves any for Satan so if all authority is given to Christ now and he's reigning at the right hand of God you know it could that be equivalent to Satan being bound so that the gospel is going to the nation's now so I don't know I like to think I'm pretty optimistic as well I couldn't agree more I when when you look at acts 2 and this is this is a paradigm shift between dispensationalists be they be they classical or progressive over against the hermeneutic of our post we look at acts 2 where Peter is interpreting Joel's prophecy right and he says that Christ is on David's throne the then it's not futuristic for us and I like dr. Merkel would say that the Matthew 28 text that what we know is the Great Commission he says all authority in heaven on earth so it's not some authority nor is it I have all authority in some places it's all authority everywhere for all the time and and for the post mill he's ruling from David's throne over the last 2,000 years okay okay well in fact you you all have begun to answer my next question and that is what would you characterize is one or two of the crucial arguments for your respective position that you found decisive that you saw okay this is this has convinced me of the validity of my position dr. Aiken what would you say has convinced you that the pre-meal position should be taken seriously well first it's the most natural reading of the text especially when you come to the book of the revelation which by the way is the only book that mentions the Millennium by that particular designation that in Revelation 21 and following the revelation 20 deals with the Millennium revelation 19 deals with the second coming and so unless you come into the book of Revelation and adopt a hermeneutic that sees it in some type of spiral sense or some type of recapitulate or II sense than most natural reading is to see a thousand year reign which is simply another designation for the future kingdom following the second coming there many others but one additional one would be in acts where the disciples come to Jesus and they say will you now restore the kingdom and he had the perfect opportunity to tell them well let me straighten you out because you have the wrong view of what the kingdom is going to be like he doesn't do that he simply says it's not for you to know the time of the seasons which the father sprit his own hands but in the interim you're to be witnesses for me globally around the world and so their anticipation of a kingdom I think we've been grounded in the great covenant promises to Abraham Genesis 12:2 David in 2nd Samuel 7 especially and by the way I agree with my brothers I do believe that the Davidic covenant has been inaugurated I was waiting for the time it is currently it is currently in effect but it's full global manifestation is to be realized when he comes again well I think that one of the things we're gonna ask is your respective understandings of the kingdom of God and and you all are starting to answer that already but think about that and how you're specifically going to say that here in a minute and let me say one last thing is up until what I call the Alexandrian or the allegorical turn yeah the early church the great loss today where they were decidedly premillennial pay pious Polycarp IRA næss all of them all the early fathers borrowed numbers they were all the pistol burners they were all premillennial and I think agustin along later along with an Origin rejected it because of some says they saw out in the culture in other words they weren't so much driven initially by the text as they were by the abuses that they saw taking place around them and so understand why they did it but up until that time the early church was decidedly premillennial and they are the course the closest ones to the Apostles so for me those were the basic things that are that what I think are the stronger reasons why I've held to this particular view dr. mark in terms of the Millennium yes tribulation issue is a whole nother issue yeah other grounds let me just say a few things in response to that and then go on to an argument against that now let me see if I get this right the the the criticism of a mill is they think that if they've refuted the pre-meal they've established their position is that what you're gonna do here not not yet although I'll get to that okay all right but first a response to the the chronological approach majority of scholars today don't do not read revelation chronologically that it's you start at one place in Revelation 4 and you end up at another place in revelation 22 so the idea that it's it's merely chronological is is a simplistic view so roughly 22 is not future we see it there there's there is there is a future aspect to it but there is recapitulation with with the seals the trumpets and the bowls of the majority of scholars recognize that today today I would agree with that I think party so I do think there is some of that so if there's some of that there then there could also be some of that in rep between revelation 19 and 20 especially in Revelation 19 when Christ comes everyone's destroyed all the enemies but yet later during the Millennium there's there's a rebellion where do these ones come from if that's a very difficult thing to answer so I do not see necessarily that you must read Revelation chronologically first of all okay the other thing is you know we talked about the book of Revelation and this gets to your other other question work you knew I was headed and that is this if you read the rest of the New Testament it's very difficult to be a pre millennialist and you might be wondering wait wait a minute you know that's that's that's the most natural reading right the most natural reading of revelation 20 let's talk about the most natural reading okay the preemie little millennial view holds that the earth the current earth will continue there'll be some improvement in the Millennial Kingdom but it's essentially not that it's not the new heavens and new earth yet all right it's an intermediate it's an intermediate King on the way to the new heaven and the new right yes well this this is a problem with the most natural reading of 2nd Peter which talks about you know there's mockers that are mocking when is Jesus going to return it's been so long and Peter says the day of the Lord will come like a thief and the heavens will pass away with a roar and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved he goes on to talk about how there's the coming of the day of God which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn this seems like and this is associated with the return of Christ so if when Christ returns the picture of that Peter gives us is that there will be a new heavens and a new earth at that time on that day you could also look at Romans 8 where there's the the longing of creation the redemption of creation creation is subjected to futility its longing for create its redemption well then will that take place well Paul seems to link it with the resurrection of believers believers receive the resurrected body when Christ returns and so creation is looking to that time so at that time it will be restored you can look at other things today the judgment of unbelievers the premillennial view states that unbelievers are not judged until after the Millennial Kingdom that seems to go contrary to the most natural reading of second Thessalonians one that talks about the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with his powerful angels at that time he will judge the unbelievers there doesn't seem to be a period of however long it is a thousand years or so you're saying that the idea of a general judgment seems to be the most natural reading of the New Testament absolutely I get that also with the resurrection with Jesus in John 5 that at that hour both those who have done good the resurrection and those who have done evil the resurrection to judgment those seem to be linked together I'd say one more thing is you have in a premillennial understanding of the Millennial Kingdom you you also get this idea that during the Millennium there is still evangelism taking place there's still wayne grudem says millions of people will be converted that seems to go against 2nd Peter he says this he says the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness but is patient with you not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance so the very purpose of the delay of the of the second coming is to give people an opportunity to repent and so Peters telling those people who are mocking look this is to your benefit Christ is giving you time to repent and the implication there is what that when he comes that time is finished so I need a long time we need a long long time for those millions I love this let's say we segue here now in that you're saying there's an intermediate you're saying that there's a general resurrection and judgment and no intermediate the post mill kind of amalgam eise's the two and has an intermediate and a general judgment and resurrection so I'll just on that note alone I could agree with dr. grudem that millions and millions are gonna come sweeping into the kingdom of God I just think he gets it on the wrong side of it second coming it's gonna happen on this side of the Second Coming so you too are you becoming post-meal is this news well the the amillennial view doesn't necessarily state how many will come in okay Marian's myriads those from every tribe I'd love to jump in here and say this about our school and the fact that we can have this conversation when so many schools seem to make as the litmus test a certain position and you don't hold a certain eschatological position that somehow you're on the outside looking in or you're some sort of second-class I love the atmosphere of our Academy of our seminary that there are while it might lean maybe more of our faculty towards either historic per year or pre Mills there is room for our mill the room for a post mill realizing that those all fall within the boundaries of Orthodoxy and so that we can have these kinds of banters and these fun discussions I think that's healthy I think it's healthy for the church to have that kind of scholarship as well back back to your earlier question that they both have answered what do I find decisive about the post mill position well way too many to discuss in our time frame I I could begin with Matthew 24 Matthew 24 is embedded in a book a gospel right theologically selected Matthew is trying to communicate a point ultimately the passion narrative Christ's crucifixion burial resurrection and ascension but up into that pin ultimately it seems to me that Matthew is reading as if we're in a walk Lorin law court and he is very forcibly pronouncing judgment on Israel the very people who are rejecting Messiah so by the time you get to Matthew 24 he's talking about the temple that which was central to everything they cherished and he says to his apostolic following are those who will soon be his apostolic leaders you see these stones not one will be left upon another he's talking about something that is cataclysmic when it when I begin to understand that Matthew 23 what we know at the ending of Matthew 23 is that your house will be left to you desolate and then he begins to explain the destruction of the temple and then the disciples asked him that most point to question when what will be the signs that these they are when will these things be what will the science when you read the Luke conversion and the mark inversion the question reads this way when will these things be and what will the signs be that these things are about to text so you're arguing that Matthew 24 is a is a finished deal up prior to and up until AD 70 which gets to this point you're asking the question what was decisive everything from Matthew 23 through Matthew 24 verse 34 when he says as he has like seven other times five to seven other times in Matthew this generation will not pass away until all these things take place he's saying it's happening in that generation now why is that decisive for post-meal well that's that's the question what that's because if all those cataclysmic horrific things are prior to ad 70 and they're not in our future then I don't have to be pessimistic about the future I don't have to think that everything's going to hell in a handbasket or you know it's a sinking ship why bother yeah that's past tense as opposed to futuristic just on that one issue alone I think we have a bright future or could have a break identity you had mentioned that there's no tribulation in the future it's a the future is rosy but how do you understand the the role of the Antichrist is there a future Antichrist will he rake have it on the church how does that relate to your view of the future well one of the caricatures usually used against post mills is that we think everything's going to be rosy just not true I believe you use that term earlier no it might have been him not me we believe that trip that Jesus said look you're gonna have tribulation I argue that the tribulation started just like the Millennial did with his resurrection or his ascension and will continue maybe evening in some sort of the tribulation escalating them are a coterminal the way through what in this world you will have tribulation but be of good cheer but is it having tribulation the same thing as the be great legend in Revelation revelation calls it the Great Tribulation and those texts in Revelation in two chapters two and three he's telling a church then that tyre I believe that you will be some will be thrown into the Great Tribulation and that's two thousand years ago so I don't I so being optimistic doesn't mean yeah doesn't mean that I think every triumphalism I believe we're gonna have martyrs I think there's gonna be fits and starts a band flow I just believe that the kingdom is ever expanding ever increasing you may have ups and downs but it's your overall direction is up I'm more like on mills in this sense but I just think there's an escalating growth and expansion and there's a host of texts but on the Antichrist issue specifically first John says 2,000 years ago for that audience then that there were many Antichrist so I don't want to just always push the notion of the Antichrist off into the future oh no there is a there is a sense that spirit isn't always been with us since the time of Christ that first jomsberg the Romans so the man of sin in second Thessalonians you see him his past or present I'll go out on a limb here I his best I can to not that I'm not already I don't know what I think both first and Thessalonians only 1st Thessalonians 4 don't push me too hard on this is really dealing with the second coming of our Lord okay I think the other second Thessalonians and any other mentioned in 1st Thessalonians is dealing with 8070 and those kinds of issues you've already started to answer this so let me go ahead and let you finish can you tell me then what do you understand the kingdom what is relationship is this president age do you think that the kingdom is already arrived entirely future somehow arriving now not yet how would you describe well when I when I open up the Gospels and I think there's probably going to be a lot more agreement on this question than many of the others when I read the Gospels John the Baptist shows up he arrives and preaches that the kingdom of God is it has at hand and I don't buy in to that hard distinction that Matthew calls it the kingdom of heaven and the other Gospels are calling the kingdom I think they're listen Holly does anybody hold out anymore Johnny so Jesus shows up after his baptism and he's preaching the gospel of the kingdom so I have to believe just on a fair reading of that text that the kingdom began with the first coming and then of course Matthew 13 I believe the kingdom is like leaven and it's starts small and unseen but it permeates and expands and influences everything that the kingdom is is a already not yet so I just happen to be maybe a little different from the I won't put words in dr. Merkel's mouth I believe the kingdom started them and then when you read that over against Daniel 2 Isaiah 9 other text Isaiah 7 Isaiah 2 that there is just this massive increase I mean keep in mind the kingdom began with Jesus then a couple of fishermen you know leather 12 guys and and now it has it has grown to millions and millions and millions and so it's gonna be hard to argue against the historicity so much expansion so would you say then that the end of the age a majority of people are going to be saved or that there will be a significant minority everywhere somewhere in between those two not trying to be clever yeah I do believe Isaiah 2 and others some to do when Jesus asked the father for the nation's the father says I will give you the nation's as your inheritance I believe that is going to happen prior to the second coming when the Scriptures say Jesus of Jesus that he is seated at the right hand of the Father until until is a time he's going to stay there until something happens and I I believe that is the prevalent spread of the kingdom of God hence nation streaming in to the mountain of the house of the Lord which I take to me not ethnic Israel but I take the mean the church comprised of Jews and Gentiles under Messiah Jesus well that's a good segue then let me give you the same question on the relationship of the kingdom you said earlier that Satan is bound looking at the Holocaust in which twenty to thirty million people were murdered by the Nazis if if Satan wasn't active there then you know what's going on right well related to the binding of Satan as I said before it specifically John tells us that he's he's he's bound with regard to not deceiving the nation's and so if you if you look at the Old Testament where the nation's were in darkness whether they had no gospel where they did not have God's special revelation the Word of God as opposed to now where the disciples to go or to make disciples of all the nations there that's a that's a big difference and so it doesn't mean that Satan's not around the Satan is not have influence but there is limitation to it the the gospel will reach the nations into your question related to the bikini of the kingdom as well that relates to it because yes I believe that Jesus brought the kingdom and not fully it's already but not yet I think that's the the right view but one thing with the amillennial view is that it treats the resurrection the death and resurrection of Jesus as the focal point of salvation history so that at Jesus's death and resurrection Satan was bound and he will not deceive the nation's any longer and so you know you can look in Jesus's teaching talking about how he's plundering the strongman there are other texts I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven the author of Hebrews says that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death through his death he destroys the one who has the power of death I take that to be the binding of Satan first John 3:8 the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil and so again I think that these are you know this approach is a gospel center approach if you will not I want to Trump the gospel from anyone but you know the gospel specifically the the death and resurrection and ascension of Christ this view highlights that says at his death and resurrection he conquered Satan that's our position as well well now as we come over to the premillennial and we're gonna talk I think you're gonna say it now not yet could you talk a little bit also about how there's been a change through the years in the premillennial position from like the classic to the progressive in their understanding of the nature of the kingdom my understanding is classic dispensationalists would have often put the kingdom entirely future yeah and and so how would you say that that you know what you all would hold and maybe how that might be close to the historic Premal or how would you understand that a couple of things one I would be in agreement with my brothers that the kingdom is best understood is now and not yet with the arrival of the king the kingdom has come and with the coming of Christ the kingdom was inaugurated now has it reached its full climactic flowering no that's why we speak of it in terms of now but not yet we even think in terms of our own salvation as a now not yet reality I am justified I have been reconciled but my glorification is still something future first John chapter 3 verses one through three addresses this magnificently pick up on something Dennis said I do anticipate a great grand glorious revival as we move toward the end of the age Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 after this I looked and behold a great multitude that no one could number every nation tribe people language standing before the throne John will then raise the question who are these and the angel says well you know and then the angel answers these are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation which I of course believe is a future event so I believe that if we move toward the end of the age we can anticipate horrific justified judgment as predicted by Jesus in Matthew 24 as found in revelation 6 through 19 with the judgments that you have there at the same time there's going to be great revival across the world but many of them of course according to the revelation will die the death of a martyr all right so that's one part I would not want to say as Ben does that Satan is bound I would want to say that he's been defeated that he has been dealt a death blow and that in using an analogy he's dying out he's bleeding out that sounds worse than found if he's well death blow but he is still in the process of dying out just as we're in the process of growing up into Christ he is going around the earth as a roaring lion seeking to whom he will devour that doesn't sound being bound to me I could interrupt he's a he's a lion on a leash if you will I agree Luther was right Satan is still God's devil and but it's a long leash evidently because he does continue to rave havoc and men mentioned the fact that he's not able to deceive the nation's well the revelation speaks to the nation's being significantly deceived at particular points so I would differ a bit there in terms of what is being articulated but let me talk where there is some approachment because classic distance socialism though still held by some has been losing steam over the last several decades classic dispensationalism postponed Kingdom yeah God comes in Christ to offer the kingdom to Israel Israel said no Kingdom is not inaugurated Kingdom is not taking place it is delayed it is postponed and we are now in this interim called the church age that then leads into a very hard fast distinction that classic dispensationalism may between Israel and the church and in some cases even into the future they have something of a segregated Kingdom where you've got Old Testament Saints you've got New Testament Saints which is the church you've got future tribulation Saints you'll also have millennial Saints maybe we'll all get together in the new heaven the new earth and the New Jerusalem though some would still keep it segregated even into eternity that just will not stand up I believe under any and this is what dispensationalism is so often known for its historical grammatical hermeneutic well it won't stand up on a straightforward reading for example of Ephesians 3:14 through 21 which clearly indicates that all of the redeemed are part of the body of Christ Old Testament believers New Testament believers all believers constitute and this is where progressive dispensationalism I think is more true to the text and in some ways then is in more approachment with covenant theology and the amillennial post-millennial view we are all the one people of God which is the church and so there's no such thing Paul would if I'd appeared to pop if I had a chance to talk to Paul and say Paul how do you feel about the fact that you're in the church post Pentecost that bless his heart John the Baptist was not a part of the body of Christ I think Paul would slap me I think he would be very unhappy with so am i if I understand correct none of you here are going to use the Left Behind series in your small group no no in fact I've often said to my brothers god help us save us as a Prima list from the Prima list because some of them want to be fair it is a novel that they're stating this is a novel this is just what if kinda creative novel I'll leave it at that same thing prior to the Left Behind series with Hal Lindsey and the late great planet Earth now let me say this now before we throw him under the bus that's thrown under well we can in terms of some of the spectacular things in the book but let me also say I have met over the years dozens and dozens and dozens of persons who were converted having read the late great planet Earth and so for that I'm grateful for the other not so much but again even Lindsay is not saying I'm giving you a very verse carefully theologically informed argument of what is going on for example in the book of Revelation so then what what is God's plan for Israel has the in 1948 the ethnic people of Israel returned to the land and the nation was reborn do you can see that is any type of is that it significant in any way to Biblical prophecy I don't think so so you don't think so no not at all no no there's no plan for the ethnic people of Israel well there's there is a plan it's called the gospel yes but I mean the the plan the unconditional promise to Abraham of about a land a kingdom that that's that's all fulfilled that's over with well I think playing it I I do think that the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional although there may be conditions attached to I think in this essence it's an unconditional covenant God says over and over I will do this I will do this I will do this he alone walks through the the in the covenant ceremony Abraham's asleep he alone walks through the the the cut carcasses the way I view the the Abrahamic covenant is it is literally fulfilled in Christ the promises to Abraham are fulfilled in their their their past tense and their present tense they're fulfilled in Christ and all those who are united with Christ have access to those promises that's what Paul seems to teach right when he talks about are you being a children child of Abraham you have to have the faith like Abraham look at the the picture in in in Romans 11 I think that's a great picture you have this I think it is - yeah I do - see when there's the coming of Future day when all Israel will be I really like that birds really not chapters 9 through 11 I'm so glad you brought that up because ring it up he did put that on the tape and leave that on the tape can I have a chance to explain my well begin we shot bets a first let's remember that what Romans 9 through 11 is doing it is the capstone of the book in which he's explaining how it is that a people who have rejected the gospel and how that still was in the sovereign plan of God chapter 9 yet in chapter 10 they are the ones human responsibility they're the ones for their unbelief yet chapter 11 has God abandoned them so go ahead and go in now in Chapter 11 well I didn't give you a chance to answer the other question so I rights in your own quest yeah I was wanting to answer because I want to I want to clarify how I view the Abrahamic covenant okay and how Christ fulfills that and I was bringing up chapter 11 okay with the picture first of all I wasn't going to 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved I was going before that where he gives us analogy of that of the olive tree and you know sometimes people who hold an amillennial view get accused of something called replacement theology I don't hold the replacement theology there I think replacement theology is awful in the in it's in the past it's been the avenue of anti-semitism yeah well I think it is it's wrong it's it's bad theology to say that the church replaces Israel I don't believe that I don't know people who believe that for that whole my view we don't like that we don't like that terminology the church does not replace Israel the promises to Abraham are fulfilled in Christ and it's when we believe in Christ the the natural branches are broken off the the wild branches are grafted in why because their union with Christ in Christ this tree if you will its roots are the Abrahamic covenant and it grows up and so the church believers are grafted in and so there is a sense in which the only way that we're even saved is by becoming an Israel Israelite so I my seething in Christ so when Ezekiel has his vision of the valley of dry bones and he in in he says can these bones live is he talking about the church there or is it is it somehow had the ethnic people of Israel yeah I wouldn't necessarily say that's the church although I haven't really considered it in much context related to eschatology and how that plays out because he he brings him together and then he breathes his spirit into them so this isn't just brought back together but they're actually alive spiritually are Ezekiel the last 1012 chapters where he gives a detailed description of the temple okay do you understand that to be something that's actually going to happen something that's spiritually being fulfilled now okay with other words he goes into my new detail about a temple and we will give you that until the temple and the temple was built first of all ezekiah was never told to build the temple secondly the temple was never used it was never used by the people of Israel when they did build the temple thirdly there's not enough detail to build the temple so it I think it's a picture I think it's a symbol of the unified people of God but I'll pass it over to my brother and there you go go ahead I think the temple I think dr. Merkel is touching on something very important just as I've read these differences through the years let's let's just say for a conversation say massive differences over the last hundred years between covenant lists covenant theologians and dispensational theologians when you get down to it really they're trying to simplify it or oversimplify it it really does get down to a hermeneutical issue how you read a you and I had this discussion three years ago where do you see a rebuilt temple in the New Testament oh I don't I see that primarily in the old well like Gardez Voss I see a progressive escalating revelation from Old Testament two new types and shadows foreshadowing spree figurines back ear being realized and fulfill promises back here realizations over here so I I see the temple in Ezekiel those those texts as pointing forward to John to Jesus ultimately when he says destroy this temple in three days I'll raise it I'll rebuild it he's obviously John tells us in commentary there that he's not speaking of a literal temple II speaking of himself so when you read the New Testament first Corinthians three be wise how you build be careful with what material you're building with 1st Peter chapter 1 and 2 all these references to temple is our Ephesians it's not stones it's living stones it's human beings so you have foreshadowings and prefigurement but just just a little side note on this others yeah I think Ben's really close to something here actually I think he spot on to something here when you ask the only one who thinks when you ask the question be worried I think this is critically important issue and I think it goes a long way to solving a lot of the riddles around what we're discussing who are the people of God who is the seed of Abraham dispensations by and large historically said the seed of may see the seed of Abraham are the ethnic descendants of Abraham covenant on the other hand say no it's the spiritual those who walk after the footsteps Romans for a father Abraham in the faith I want to say with the Apostle Paul Galatians chapter 3 that the promises to Abraham and his seed and then the Apostle Paul does something very important parenthetically he then tells us I don't say plural singular seed the promises made Abraham and his seed ie Christ the person of Christ in other words all those promises you see in Genesis 12:2 Abraham and his seed I find that they terminate in the individual person of Jesus Christ Galatians 3:16 and then by the time you read from 16 to 29 in Galatians 3:29 tells you those who are joined to this Messiah the Christ have access their fellow heirs and so to dr. Aikens point a little earlier in Chapter two fees in chapter 3 the to those who are far off Gentiles those that were near Jews that hostility that dividing wall by the blood of Christ the two have been made into one new man I just I struggled greatly to see how anybody could hold the two peoples of God and quite frankly I think it's gone a long way to do great damage to the church and her sense of purpose and God's plan for her in this age I quite let me just stop with this I think the only parenthetical people in the Bible not the church I think it's Israel and I'm not a replacement theologian either when you read my reading of Romans 9 10 11 some Jews are being safe Paul said I am a Jew so the reality of those prophetic utterances and promises a remnant a lot of language about remnant in Romans 9 10 11 and we Gentiles by the grace of God are grafting in to Christ so I think the question of who are the descendants of Abraham Abraham is absolutely essential and central to all our discussion so let me ask another question that should I think that you all will be glad I asked it'll be a kind of a softball for you what is the day of the Lord in your understanding how would you understand the day of the Lord in your eschatological systems I'm gonna start with Ben because I know that you you spend a lot of time talking about that I do yeah go for it okay I didn't know I did the day of the Lord I think it depends on the context of where it's Luke what you're reading in other words whenever you read the day of the Lord I think it's a mistake to say that's this is the second coming this is the final judgement the day of the Lord could be something that is typically it's in reference to some kind of judgment so in the Old Testament the day of the Lord take for example Isaiah 13 which talks about you know the Sun will be darkened all these things but it's in the context of judgment coming to Babylon or on to Israel by Babylon and so it depends on the context sometimes the day of the Lord is in reference to I think it's used similarly in acts 2 but there are other texts where the day of the Lord is a return of Christ so it really depends on the context that you're reading it you there's no just one day of the Lord I think there is there's an ultimate day the Lord there's days of the Lord if you like that anticipate yeah ok anybody else want to add to that what he said what he said because there is clearly coming a climactic eschatological the day of the Lord when everything is undone and the kingdom is brought into its full fruition there are anticipations of it on a number of occasions throughout the Scriptures and so there are just like there are typical anticipations of Christ's coming you've gotten anticipations of the eschatological day of the Lord's coming as well fellows this has been a great discussion and I have enjoyed every minute of it let me ask you something that they'll sort of change the direction just a little bit the new heavens and the new earth in what ways will it be the same or similar to what the present age is like in what ways will it be different in other words cats and dogs will they be in heaven dogs yes cats probably not ok but that's my proclivities in terms of the pets that I love going to the Apostle John there knows let me say this kid I think there's clearly continuity because it is both a new heaven and a new earth and so what we lost in Adam spiritually and what the creation lost Romans 8 we're gonna get it all back and even more I often like to say that the new heaven the new earth is Eden regained and more so there is some clear continuity but at the same time Paul John they teach us that what it's going to be like is in one sense not capable of being put into human words it's going to be so much more great and glorious and wonderful we won't be disappointed been the new heavens new earth is it everything we wanted and then some in in other words like randy Alcorn spoke where he talks about how similar in many ways cities and roads and civilization and society is this how you would understand it or yeah I think so I mean it's it's hard to know because we're given a picture in Revelation I think you know I don't read Revelation as the reality it's a picture to communicate a reality and so you have a city you have you have gold streets and I don't necessarily think that these are the reality that's not the way visions work they you know visions and dreams you get a picture of a reality and so what John's communicating to us is something that more than we can ask or imagine as as Paul talks about so there's continuity but exhibit absolutely yeah absolutely and you know we kind of use our mind we might we might think we might stop and ponder meditate upon what heaven might be like and the new heavens and the new earth and it's almost it's almost too hard for us to even conceive of that and I think it's a good good that we we meditate upon these things because that's where our hope is in the future to be with God forever to be in his presence there is no need of a son because his glory is there I think these things that's our hope so we should meditate upon these things and yet it's in one in one sense it's it's kind of hard for us to imagine what it will be like when you can read about no more death no more sorrow no more tears no more pain that's good like the older I get the good or I know it's bad yeah the good or gets I understand yes yes so much that seems to me that the New Testament speaking of age draws though morning you know I love it judgment is coming there's parallel between the second coming with Christ and the judgment in Noah's day now that there was a worldwide cataclysmic that's I know debatable you demo the docs but yeah God visits judgment and he makes the promise that he'll never do it again through water right yeah but this second coming Peter talks about this this coming of Christ fire as opposed to another kind of judgment and so if there's a parallel there and I think there is then what do we see in the know a judgment we see a family on terra firma visited by a cataclysmic judgment a baptized earth and after they get off of the art what are they stepping on to has the previous cosmos been annihilated done away with entirely and a new universe created X Neill oh I don't think so yeah you have a nerve the heavens that an earth that were judged they go through order and they reached into a new reality a new reality but it's the same planet so in the second coming this goes to what I think Paul saying in 1st Corinthians 3 be careful how you build because some are building with gold silver and precious stone others wood wood hay and stubble some last and some some things are going to make it through the fire and so I see continuity with discontinuity and and so it's a refining fire not an annihilating fire continuity with a radical glorious transformation so we have the books such as Daniel revelation Zachariah various apocalyptic in the old and new Testament what's the purpose of Revelation you've mentioned about how how it's been received by different ones what why did God give us the book of Revelation when Ben and I were at seven we had a wonderful colleague Bob Stein and he was my colleague who's been an instructor and I remember hearing one time having been on a mission field among a persecuted people group working with pastors and he asked him a very interesting and simple question he's that I just on one occasion so I'm just curious you guys what is your favorite book or books of the Bible and he said I was almost certain they would say the Psalms or the Gospel of John or Romans or Philippians or something like that but he said from the Old Testament it was Daniel and from the New Testament it was revelation and he said he was taken back by that and he asked him well why and their response was because in those books were clearly taught that in the end our God wins now and so do I think that the intent of apocalyptic literature is to get us down into nitty-gritty details know there are details there in some places more clear than others but it's primarily given to us to encourage us to persevere especially in the midst of persecution and tribulation and opposition because God is working he's up above and outside the scenes orchestrating overseeing all that's taking place so persevere be faithful yes it looks bad right now down here but up there it's all moving toward a perfect climactic end that's being orchestrated by a sovereign God who in the end is going to indeed rule and reign as the Great King and the great Lord of all things I think we've we've teased Dennis about the optimism of postmillennialism but I think we'd all say that we ultimately eschatology is optimistic there are those who know Christ are those who knows cry or blessed hope it is a blessed hope that we're all looking forward to and that when Christ returns it is the end of this age in this but it's not the end in fact it's the beginning it is the end of the beginning it is the end of the beginning as we move into a whole new phase and so I think we're all looking forward to that all right thank you man god join'd Jordan you

Channel: Southeastern Seminary

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Keywords: Southeastern, Baptist, Theological, Seminary, Chapel, Message, Jesus, Preaching, God, North Carolina, Wake Forest, Gospel, Danny, Great Commission, Training, Education, Southern, Boyce, SBTS, Al, Mohler, MWBTS, NOBTS, Jamie, Dew, Gateway, Universtiy, ERLC, Matt, Chandler, B21, IMB, NAMB, SBC, SBC20, NCSU, ECU, UNC, Duke, Divinity, School, Platt, Greear, JD, David, Whos, Your, One, Midwestern, Akin, RDU, Conversations, That, Matter, New Orleans, Critical, Race, Theory, Orlando, Florida, Kanye, West

Id: f4tO1cnH2Ts

Length: 52min 21sec (3141 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 27 2020