回看辩论：西方嘉宾大谈香港台湾，中国学者警告美国价值观危机

now michael spoke about the environmental crisis but we all know that the environmental crisis crisis into many many other crises you know the social economic crisis the inequality the opiate crisis just name it and i would like to understand what is at the core what is the cause what is the cause of those crisis we are now facing in the west 30 years after fall of the berlin wall when we thought you know end of history liberal democracy has won or will be fine who okay eric you have strong views well um i think i enjoyed michael's lecture very much this morning especially when he mentioned about liberal politics and its lineage beginning the enlightenment of course i think we are at at the end of a 300 year run of a liberal vision of the world however you want to call it maybe some call it the modern and and i think that vision is in some trouble not predicting its demise not yet but it's in some trouble now because in the last 30 years to this day since the end of the cold war that liberals around the world have pursued a rather extreme ideological version of modern liberalism which precludes and excludes other possibilities both intellectually and economically to the point where i think the leader of the liberal world the united states of course had committed what paul kennedy's defined as imperial overreach both externally and internally externally it's um it's gone too far in trying to impose its vision on the rest of the world on so many countries um to some extent in some cases militarily to rather disastrous consequences and internally it's taken this vision of the world which places the individual as the autonomous basic unit of society at the center of the universe internally it's gone pretty far since the reagan and such a revolution with the neoliberal economic doctrine that has led to tremendous inequality in developed countries that are generating this backlash against the liberal tradition both the liberal tradition and and globalization itself and these problems are not being solved um so so i think that's partially how i see it from the outside from a non-liberal society the trouble with with the liberal vision jose manuel what what's the cause of the many crisis we are facing i think that first of all i agree that globalization is a main driver for this angst this anxiety that we have today in our societies i'm speaking now more about the western society so europe and the americas uh i think that was certainly very much aggravated by the financial crisis and austerity policies and impact that it has foreign europe a very specific issue is this movement of refugees and illegal migrants that has put a lot of pressure in some societies that were not used to deal with multiculturalism or diversity or they thought that they had enough of that so that creates a backlash so there are many causes there is not a single cause and by the way i think we should avoid easy simplifications in fact that's one of the one of the intellectual devices if i may say so of populism lincoln simplification is to make this kind of simplification i want i want to go to another place where there are problems which is hong kong and in hong kong you have a few million people who are promoting fighting protesting to keep their sense of freedom and democracy and there is that civilizational state china who if i read the newspapers well has a problem with those millions of people who are fighting for their freedom and democracy um what's the problem of china leave those people alone well they hadn't been left alone they were ruled by britain for a long time yes [Laughter] by force by the way through wars of course the and and hong kong came back to china peacefully so there's an important distinction here it was taken by force returned in peace and that's a great achievement and in hong kong we have this structure called one country two systems which means the hong kong has this thing called the basic law it's a mini constitution so that it's autonomous it's an autonomous region it's called a special administrative region so it runs its own economy its own legal system and its own way of selecting leaders and the current protests of course are driven there are many interpretations um i mean i i tend to see it as being driven in part uh by a lot of economic grievances uh that also inequality actually um there's a lot of undercurrents but also uh these undercurrents have been politicized uh into dissatisfaction with the one country two systems approach um and that's unfortunate um so obviously you cannot break that system it's like trying to break the constitution of the united states so so hong kong will need to within the legal framework within its constitutional framework it needs to find i hope it will a way forward to solve these problems in a peaceful manner uh and and in a manner that respects the rules that are currently governing the territory and we i'm confident eventually they will get there i mean these protests have been violent at times but and but not nearly as violent as the ones being taking place in paris uh not even close and the police tactics not nearly as aggressive as the parisian police uh so i think in comparison uh i'm i'm you know i'm i'm rather sanguine and you know um eric are you please yes can you just take that same discussion eric to taiwan and kind of how you see because i think my own view is i think the west misinterprets easily misinterprets uh where taiwan is where it's headed the relationship uh the one china policy and how that actually is going right now particularly in the face of an election here in taiwan in the very near future well again it's part of history where history is so important here in taiwan was i mean china emerged after world war ii uh in tatters the country had you know had hundreds some years of horrible time i've been invaded colonized and yet it emerged in one piece after world war ii luckily in bad shape but in one piece um so it it you know its goal is to reunify the chinese nation um and it's part of national aspiration and taiwan obviously is a part of that and the current taiwan constitution says that it is part of china so so it is an aspiration you could say on both sides of the street although i do recognize there are people in taiwan sizable part of the population who want taiwan to be an independent country but as you know these are very difficult goals it's always the i mean in america to be independent from britain it came with wars and blush and extraordinary violence um so so this is not an easy proposition um um and and i mean i would i hope one day the chinese nation will be unified in one that that's our goal but eric so you gave an interview for nrc in which you mentioned that the legitimacy of the communist party which has total control of your country is based because of the people it's the people of china who legitimizes the communist party right um but talking about what michael mentioned if you read other reports of what's happening in china there is a politics of fear uh resists the violence the credit system there's even a kind of gulag re-education camps i mean what's the real legitimation of this communist party well i think the legitimacy of any ruler or any rule on a long-term basis must be rested upon whether it delivers for a vast majority of the people that they govern okay if they fail to that do that for long duration they'll lose their legitimacy period and this is something not to be complacent about and my analysis is that the the party has been successful so far is because they have this sense of crisis this sense of they're not complacent they keep thinking what can we do to keep delivering uh that's what i worry about liberal societies uh because they have as again from as an outside observer okay i'm not the the liberal societies have these rulers these elites that somehow take their legitimacy for granted so they say we're legitimate because we're liberal liberalism grants us legitimacy it doesn't matter no matter what and you're illegitimate because you're illiberal therefore you know so that kind of complacency i think may defeat liberalism which will be unfortunate um i like to see a world where there are many different ideas of how to govern and and and uh but but i mean that would be the danger of liberal societies um current chinese parties in the state are not in danger of that because they are constantly in this and have the sense of crisis and how to deliver and that's that's what i mean by legitimacy there's a there's a [Applause] what you rest legitimacy on is on one hand just an empirical question all governments succeed only to the extent that they deliver in some way but the issue that you raise with with taiwan i think goes to the heart of a very important problem and and that is um if there are millions of people who want to govern themselves does nationalism always trump self-government and and and and uh that that seems to me a rather urgent matter especially since the nationalism that would trump self-government is that of a one-party state well it depends and that's not a question of the problems of liberalism are evident but but the fact that liberalism or western societies have enormous problems and i come from a country where we have a very very big problem um starting with the president um uh you know the fact that there are problems doesn't legitimize any other form of rule well that's exactly my point the problem the fact that we have problems doesn't legitimize you either i'm not asking but let me just legitimize but let me take this let me take your point let me take your point i think uh the the the the the issue here is how you define the people right i mean i define the people as the chinese people which includes taiwan so so i mean do you define do you define the spanish people as including catalonian people then if you define spanish people catalonian people as part of spanish people then you will say that their aspiration for self-governance would be illegitimate because people in madrid have a say as well in barcelona right so so that but i mean i know it's a debatable issue you can debate that you could come to me and say taiwan is not a part of china i would disagree with that but but but that's the issue that we're debating but no but you can still say that taiwan is um a part of china but the if the vast majority of taiwanese want to govern themselves and establish their own rules the vast majority of people in shanghai don't believe that and we have a say in that too just like the vast majority in madrid also have a say in how barcelonians should rule themselves they think so at least but then it becomes a question these are these are strong arguments i'm treating them with respect but then the issue becomes how does this get adjudicated well how does this how does this get done china wants to essentially absorb taiwan but the worry that everybody has externally is that beyond these issues of political theory this will come down to a matter of force just as when the when the one china two countries system ends in 2047 that a lot of people in hong kong who'd like to remain free will not be free and a lot of people in taiwan who would like to be free will not in the end be free they will be unified but on the conditions dictated by china that's the issue right and and i don't see a story here that that that begins to respect the longing for democratic freedom that you see in taiwan and that you see in in in hong kong that is a problem for you it's how you get there even if you agreed that this is one china you may have to live with the fact there are many chinas well i'm not so sure about that i mean the the what what do you mean we have to live with the idea of many chinese i mean hong kong obviously has its own mini constitution which i think in almost in in modern history is unprecedented uh i don't i can't find an example where one nation state could be so tolerant as to have a it's sovereign territory a part of sovereignty territory completely rude almost autonomously with its own constitution so i think i'm optimistic that we could resolve these differences amongst ourselves and let me also help if i could relieve your anxiety a little bit as you earlier pointed out about about the potential for chinese dominance of the world let me say this i will wage your bet today that in 25 years when we returned for the 50th anniversary of the nexus conference that china would not be dominating the world at that time and i'll wager that bad for two reasons one is because i don't believe china intends to dominate the world and and number two is even if they did they would fail at it because we moved way past beyond the age of dominance i think it's it'll be difficult for anyone power to dominate the world the wrong mindset and let me if i if i could if i could uh please let me let me let me finish my trend of thought you know in 20 some years ago i was still a youngster coming out of university at that time china was just beginning to you know sort of barely joining the wto is uh trying to you know emerge um and and i there was a lot of anxiety at that time even you know and i read one day i i was reading the washi journal i think on the left column there was a picture of the chinese grand strategist john begen who coined the term peaceful rise and he said the china's aspirations to rise peacefully and i read that i was very excited i went and talked to people and said we're going to rise peacefully you know and and everybody was very very suspicious and skeptical and they attacked the idea and all that and to this day i go out and say peaceful rides and people look at me saying you know what what are you smoking but let me just say this in my lifetime just in my career peaceful rise has already happened it's a fact on the ground we went from since i started my career in business we went from a poor agrarian country to a behemoth that you know that is china today but he must in every respect okay yet no country has been invaded not a single shot fired no violence and if you look at human history the rise of every power from athenian empire to the roman empire to the british empire to america's manifest destiny to the rise of modern germany and modern japan ottoman empire every single one of them their rise was accompanied by tremendous bloodshed colonization wars massacres okay and china's rise to date has been bigger and faster than them all in fact but but no war yet so that's something to celebrate i'm not predicting the future but at least the achievement to date is something worthy of celebration and worthy of co cultivating further yeah i just as a i mean i i i wouldn't disagree with the principle that's how empires get built uh but the most defective form of empire building which explains the pathology of all the world's great empires a negative thing is always through accommodation right it's just the problem is historians focus on the bloodshed and the violence so there are obviously cases where the native population of australia is essentially genocide or mass murder anyway but generally the way in which things work are when people are incentivized to work with you and that means that there are expansions of empires that are not just done through force of arms sometimes military is a very important threat to open up the doors but things that are sustainable are about finding working exchange relationships with each other right so that's how that's the reality of how empires really get built and so the big question is in what way is this metric of china and its massive economic power how what kind of stake is it going to take and what should it take right and what does it want to take in a world that's changing very quickly where it's a neighbor with afghanistan and yet has sat out of the story of the last 40 40 41 years what role should china play as being part of the part of the neighborhood right and why hasn't it played a role so far and will it help make things better in afghanistan or may help things worse will it listen and who will listen to in terms of shaping you can replicate that question with every single country that china shares a border with but obviously it's much more expanded than that too the first step is obviously do no harm and peace and and i think china is dabbling at afghanistan a little bit now they're trying to host this this thing conference yeah yeah but i don't know whether that will succeed but but you know if you look at in 1949 when the people's republic was founded uh china had china had i think shared borders with 16 countries okay land borders all right china had territorial disputes with all 16 countries in 1949 right today that number is down to two essentially one india and bhutan and bhutan was a part of india okay so so in the last 70 years china has settled its territorial disputes with 14 of the 16 countries here border with all peacefully with russia it was like centimeter by centimeter negotiation over a 15-year period yeah the most important territorial dispute of course in south china sea which isn't resolved well i'm talking about land borders right okay so so therefore no no no but we have it we have an admiral here what are you trying to say what i'm trying to say is that's something to celebrate isn't it i mean i don't i don't see a lot of presidents in history in all your countries what you've done to settle your your borders huh so come on come on cut off some slack

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Length: 22min 48sec (1368 seconds)

Published: Tue Jun 02 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/xerotul]

These Anglos never change. Their argument that people living in Taiwan wants independence then they have that right. How about you apply that principle to Catalonia Spain? Oh, but that's different. How about you apply that principle to Hawaii? Oh, but that's different. Wasting your breath with these assholes. They have no principle. Physical power is all they understand.

Their argument is fucking retarded too. That's like me living on my land and I declare independence. And, they're academics?

The issue of Taiwan goes beyond the island and the people living there. The war mongering US has military bases surrounded China in Korea, Japan, Philippines. What happens if Taiwan is independent? Then US moves in with military bases, missiles and nukes. Taiwan is good as US territory.

[u/DialecticalShitposts]

Whose the British asshole who said empires are built on “exchange relationships”? He has the exact views you’d think someone with that accent would have.