Episode 109: Tradition and the Mass

[Music] welcome to godsplaining contemplative preachers contemporary age each week join the dominican friars as they consider all things catholic hello friends welcome back to godspaning i am today's host father patrick mary briscoe because i rested the powers of headship away from father shanka bertrand janczyk so i'm in the lead today ha oh by the way i'm accompanied today by father jacob bertrand chansic yeah hello here i am hey there how you doing thanks for having me on your show yeah oh my pleasure to host you today on on god's planning yeah uh one thing that's kind of fun about this episode is that father jacob bertrand and i are both in washington dc at the house of studies recording from opposite sides of the building so that's kind of cool yeah one day we'll get like a mixer and be able to sit in the same room but this has been happening for two years so why it's not broken don't fix it that's the saying right i don't know also yeah it's no it's great it's great this is awesome so yeah here we are both in dc so father gregory left got the boot and then we moved father patrick in so just took a year to get another godsplainer back in the house that's right don't worry first thing i did was throw out that extra long mattress though yeah for those who have never seen father greg he's tall he's the tallest of us so there you have it well one thing that's kind of nice too about this episode is that we've we've come to the end of the summer chaos right we did all these different kinds of things you had a couple cool trips um yeah tell us about your summer yeah mostly out of um out of colorado this summer with focus's summer projects so that was cool i spent most of the summer in colorado springs we had a bunch of camping trips and other other kind of adventures so made our way i made my way as far west as utah and drove i drove to colorado and drove out to utah for that trip so my car got a lot of additional miles but it was cool um i don't love road trips but i was with some fun people for all the driving so that was that made it that made it good um yeah that was those were the big trips my my there's a family wedding earlier in the summer father patrick was actually at my sister got married back in june so came back east for that and we came back east again for the um for uh the godsplaining retreat in july but that that was kind of it and now settled back here and uh father patrick has settled here and you were you were with summer projects not in colorado but in maine a bit so you had that was part of your summer adventure besides moving to the house of studies so uh same program different location so that's pretty cool yeah that was great i came home and i said to father jacob bertrand hey i'm outdoorsy now yep he left he laughed he wasn't he wasn't sure that i believe but i did climb cadillac that's my you know claim to uh adventure um and it was called cadillac not a mountain in a cadillac yeah that's right thank you for the clarification yeah lest you think that the latter sounds more like me i did accomplish the former we took the west the west side down which like no one does because it's very treacherous apparently effect which we realized about halfway down naturally yeah of course so that part was very exciting we also saw an otter on otter cliffs i think that's you know something poetic about that it had a fish in its mouth so that was kind of that's a great deal yeah very exciting all the wildlife you know yeah that's that's that's really great you're like a um i can't think of a name of somebody well who are the people who went out to the wilderness and messages the poets um walt someone trudeau the prime minister of canada what were their names do you know who i'm talking about i can't think of your name it's more fun to just kind of watch this happen though yeah well yeah there's zero i was thinking walt whitman the rogue the henry david thoreau thank you yeah that's right trudeau is fine yeah yeah trudeau yeah that's right okay we're totally descended into time it's time to start the episode um so today we want to talk about uh the traditional elements of uh the mass that's known as the novus ordo or the mass of paul vi um so we're talking about the mass as most people experience it in their catholic parishes so this mass was promulgated and after the reforms of the second vatican council so 1972 and onward so father jacob bergen why don't you talk about some of the main differences between this mass and the mass as it was celebrated prior to the reforms of the second vatican council um yeah just a little bit about the general experience yeah yeah i think um and i guess just to kind of give a little context too one of the things we're taught in our preaching classes is never to talk about the preparation for the preaching when you start to preach like yesterday i was thinking about this and came up with muhammad like just preached um but i'm going to break that rule and that father patrick and i were batting around this idea of this episode earlier in the summer and then the holy father came out with the moto proprio uh in the summer now we're doing it after so we're looking we want we still think it's worth talking about the you know the masses it's on people's minds so um i think comparing and talking about how we live the mass as it's the the center really of our prayer together as the church is super important so good to continue the conversation so if we're looking and just broadly speaking because as dominicans we wouldn't even celebrate the form of the mass that this document that the holy father issued the the dominican rights not even mentioned in this document so just talking about the old forms of the mass versus the new form or the novus order as father patrick explained that the form that most catholics would experience a couple of the big things that people would notice would especially from the pews i mean there would be bigger differences that perhaps that priests who celebrate would notice but especially from the pews i think the two big things and i'll lump a third in there but the two big things would be the language um the novus ordo in the new form of the mass there's permission given in the church documents to celebrate the mass in what's called the vernacular or the length the spoken language of of the people in the given area um so in the old form it's only in the mass is only celebrated in latin everything's the readings the prayers all of that the chant the music it's all in latin um in the new form there is permission to celebrate in the vernacular uh the other big thing is is the orientation of the priest um so uh in the old form the priest always faces faces odd orientem or the proper or to the orient to the proper orientation to towards the east churches would have typically been built with the sacristy if you were standing in the pews looking into the sacristy into the sorry into the sanctuary not the sacristy into the sanctuary uh you'd be you'd be looking east at the rising sun which symbolized christ and the resurrection um so the priests would be facing the same way as the people in the novus ordo there is a recommendation and instruction that altars should be or could be moved away from the wall so that that the mass could be celebrated uh versus populum or towards the people so facing the people and that's growing up for me of course that that was always my experience of the mass in english and uh with the priest facing the people um so those are the two big immediate kind of like whoa big changes going on um the other thing that we'll we'll talk a bit more about but the third thing in this list that i that i started out on is is the way by which music is done so big there there were i mean things changed gradually over time in the 20th 20th century but a big shift from chant um gregorian chant to more hymnity and at its worst um kind of like uh i don't know folk music in the mass uh but a big a big shift towards humanity and and congregational singing of the parts of the mass that's not a bad thing but uh that would be the third thing i don't know you might have a few more um and there certainly are more things but those are the big three i think noticeable things that we as we would you know experience attending you know if we i wasn't alive when the in the 60s when this change was made but if we were there uh those would be the big three on my mind one of the things that we constantly go back to and i i think so we're saying now as we begin this reflection is um so many of these changes were just promulgated and they just happened and so one one thing that i brought up to father jake burton as we were talking about this um was that the our experience of the change of the mass was very carefully crafted um so for example when the new translation was uh promulgated so that the new translation of the mass in english we went to lots of training sessions there was all kind of information and for years when you walked into a church you'd find pew cards uh with with the new responses so most people remember the changes um affecting them because now instead of saying it also with you we say and with your spirit right um but uh we went to training sessions it was a very long process of integration people knew it was coming they had some sense of what to expect there were publications of different parts beforehand parishes had sessions about it um but but what's often told to us is that the changes after the second vatican council were nothing like that they were just sweeping and suddenly these elements of tradition that were very important um to many were were modified in ways that were surprising um and i think in ways that are still impacting the church so that's part of why we want to talk about these three traditions in particular to see how they can continue to influence the life of the church now and and to see uh to see the connection between uh the old mass uh the trinity right mass of the old latin mass and the mass says it's presently celebrated i don't know if you wanted to say anything else to that yeah no just kind of an anecdote i remember i think it was on when we were novices we were visiting one of our parishes where our novitiate wasn't and the pastor at the time was sort of doing i think he's still the pastor was was doing some renovations in the church um some actually pretty cool stuff and one of the things that they were doing was they had installed a sort of mosaic in the floor of the sanctuary in uh in marble um with the dominican shield or of the dominican shield on the floor and what they had done is that that mode that marble that they used to make that shield was the marble that um that had made up the old communion rail in the church and what had happened is that you know kind of overnight um the communion rail was smashed and thrown away so one sunday it was there the next it was gone people just came and their church looked totally different with no sort of instruction no explanation as to why and parishioners found pieces of the marble and kept it and then when this uh when the pastor found out this was the case and they could re um you know kind of repurposing the sanctuary and making it really quite beautiful again they use that marble that couldn't be reconstructed into the rail uh but into the mosaic so to sort of you know obviously it's not the same thing but just an anecdote to see to illustrate how father patrick was saying that there it was just kind of overnight sweeping reforms of the liturgy and though those reforms may have been well intentioned they were certainly not well um they did not come accompa they were not accompanied by well good catechesis and that sort of thing so it was kind of something that swept uh in an unhelpful ways yeah so to that and let's jump into the first of these um the orientation of the mass i mean one thing that i think is important to note um is that the roman missal still gives the instructions as if the priest were celebrating mass odd orientem that is facing the east um and i i want to say a couple things about that first um the point of language uh sometimes people say oh you mean the priest with his back to the people well that's in in my mind actually a very loaded in a very divisive way to say that um and that that conveys a certain ideology of of what the mass is i think it's better to describe it objectively and to say uh things like the language father jacob bertram is using that the priest is facing the east because that is in fact the that is in fact the liturgical custom that is the tradition that everyone would face the same direction praying um i think another thing that's important to see about this is because when we pray the mass in this direction we have an understanding that the priest is a mediator so according the catholic church we believe that the priest stands in persona christi capitis that he is there in the person of christ the head and by his configuration through holy orders the priest can do things in the name of christ in a special way and one of those is to communicate the graces of god to the people of god and when when everyone is facing the same way there's a stronger sense of this kind of chain this movement um that the priest is not doing something himself but rather the priest is standing between god and god's people and i i think that i think those two those two things are very important they're not just linguistic but they they convey theological principles yeah i i think father mike schmitz i think it was him and i think it might have been at a a focus conference either seek or sls a few years ago i'm sure you could find this on on youtube if you look but he gave him uh a talk on on the mass and this point came up and what he you know about the priest's posture the way he's facing during the mass um and what he said in the way he described it and i thought that's that's a way to think about it is that you know the priest as a mediator as father patrick was explaining is facing god with the people and saying to the people as the mediator um come with me come like come with me up the mountain come with me to meet the lord and what i what is um really uh what that what that point brings out is the fact that as priests father patrick myself other all all priests we're not some sort of our priesthood exists within the church um you know we're we're called to be be priests but we're first christians you know and we're called out of the christian people to serve the christian people so even the sacrifice of the mass like the graces of the mass i mean they still god willing sanctify us and the graces of the eucharist and um we aren't we are set aside in a way to mediate but also to mediate with and as part of the mystical body so doing that together as a priest at least in my experience um is really uh spiritually edifying to have that to have that opportunity and to be able to be able to to worship with the people in the same way and the other thing too as father patrick mentioned is that the germ the general instruction it's kind of a terrible name the germ it's called the general instruction of the roman missal it's a bad acronym yeah um but it gives instruction as to when the priest should turn and face the people and what that does is as he was saying his father was saying is that well there's a presumption that he's at times not facing the people but if you were to listen to the prayers that the priest prays at mass he praised two specific people during the mass there are times when he prays to god or one of the persons of the trinity father son or holy spirit and then there are times when he prays with or for the people and it's those times that he ought to face the people and there are times when it makes sense like facing god when you're talking to god makes sense with the people so there's a kind of a there's at least i think the point that we're trying to make is that there is twofold that there's uh there's a sort of intelligibility as to why it would make sense to consider having the priest at you know face east faced in a particular direction um there's all it also makes sense um as to why the priest would turn um to talk to the laity to the to the people in the pews at certain times but then really what i think specifically at this time in the church in the church's liturgical life to see that there's a continuity between the old right and the new right that there that there's not a hard slash that there really is kind of this rich tradition that it exists in both in both forms of the mass the last thing i'll say about this before we cut to our break and then get to these other two ideas uh about the direction of the mass is that when the priest is celebrating the mass at orientum facing the east it cuts back on the number of ways that he can add his own personality into the liturgy and i think this is a good thing because i think one of the difficulties of the novice order one of the difficulties of mass as we experience it is that so much weight is being put on the priest to be an engaging celebrant to be a kind of entertainer of sorts um and that that weight is heavy it's hard to bear and and some priests don't carry it well and so when the when the normative when the normative mode is um at orientum there's a kind of um what's the right word here there's a kind of uh [Music] uniformity to worship um and a certain humility is put upon the priest because i think by default this mode of celebrating this orientation uh allows the priest to be more humble um so with that let's uh let's take a short break and when we come back we're going to talk about music in the liturgy and then we're also going to talk about language in the liturgy so stay tuned [Music] you are listening to god's planning visit us at godsplaining.org to listen to our episodes shop our store and donate to our podcast all gifts go to improving the podcast and bringing the gospel to more listeners thanks for your support well friends welcome back to god's planning thanks for sticking with us if you make it to the second half of the episode i always feel like you deserve an award because you could cut and run after the first half so if you if you if you've made it this far you know you're really in you you must be very curious then about the use of language in the liturgy and the kind of mass that you hear at mass so let's let's turn to that first let's turn to that and that first of these two remaining points um that sounds like something aquinas would have written of the two things that remain we tend to we know we now turn to the first uh that's great the second the second half has two parts now to the first part of the second half how well informed you've been in the mystic tradition yeah let's let's turn to the the importance of latin uh even still in the liturgy father jacob bertrand what are your thoughts on this yeah um so there there's a real so i think with with the liturgy um maybe i should stop saying i think that was one of my goals this summer to cut i think when i'm saying something that is like true out of my language in speech and i haven't done it so uh there is there is a document from the second vatican council called sacrosanctum concilium that if you're trying if you're wondering where are these dominicans getting these things you can look that up and read it and that's really where we're where we're pulling from that was the document that issued in the changes largely on liturgical reform and the document sacrosanctum concilium is abundantly clear that latin is to be preserved in in the church's liturgy and the worship why um just to say that it is i mean is it because god speaks latin probably or french or something i don't know uh maybe some other language uh i don't know is it that reason that's probably not the reason yeah hebrew era make that's probably not the reason the council fathers uh thought that latin ought to be preserved but be really because of its traditional place in our in its universal place in the church that that latin has been used as the language of the church um for centuries and so there there it kind of becomes institutionalized and it also becomes globalized in that um latin is the language of the church uh so that if you were worshiping in one part of the world or another you would at least have familiarity with the mass and that sort of thing um it reminds me very much the argument for latin reminds me very much of the argument for the creation of the dominican rite the the traditional form of the mass for us which was really just to um just to have um uniformity as the friars traveled throughout europe because each region had different variations of the mass so the master of the order at the time said let's have one so that as we travel we can have uniformity i think that argument holds for for the use of latin too um so the the document though says uh that that latin should be used uh as the it should be preserved in in the roman rite um and it should there should be steps taken that the faithful may be able to say or sing together in latin and i think that's really important that that goes back to the point that father patrick made earlier that we you know if there is to be a sort of holding on to or a re revitalization or reintroduction of latin in in our worship um does everything need to be in line i don't think so but does there need to be catechesis on on things do we need to be taught yes yes we do and actually in the document this is what in the document from pope francis is one of the things he recommends um so that's i think that's important but it's also i think we have to recognize that the that the sacrosanct and congenium recognizes that the vernacular is helpful and one of the things that father patrick and i when we talk about liturgical things often hearken back to is the is the change in the masses in the um in the lectionary so in the readings that we have so one of the changes that came into the mass um from uh from from the old right to the novus order to the new right is is that the the readings were expanded uh they were the cycle was expanded so we get much more of the bible throughout the year in the church but we also get the readings in english and i think that's a helpful thing if we're going to be preaching on the readings in english and if there's not such uh people don't understand the readings it makes it much more difficult so i think there's a there's a good reality in that too so i don't know if you have more thoughts about latin and english or latin in the vernacular if you're living elsewhere but uh some thoughts yeah yeah i think that um i i think that knowing that at least the mass parts in latin um is a way of deferring to the global and international nature of the church i mean i actually think in this case it's really helpful that latin um the latin is a dead language so i i've heard of historical incident incidents for example in africa where um bishops not wanting to default to one or another tribal language insisted that mass just had to be celebrated in latin even in the novus ordo um and that and that latin is is not just a not just a a uniform or or a particular standard but that that it is actually the kind of thing that unites us together because uh because latin by its nature is not spoken um in any particular country so it so it's a it's a kind of neutral territory and a place that doesn't favor one nation or race against another and i think it's really important to think of in our age and it's a beautiful thing to have that expression of faith um when you go to a major pilgrim site in the holy land or in europe and you hear the prayers of the church prayed in latin by all kinds of different people i mean it's really an extraordinary sign of the church's unity so that's just kind of a reframing but or an echoing of some of the points father jacob urgent was making yeah i think i think that kind of sums up my thoughts on it i think you hit that right on right on the head so even in again even in the even in the novus ordo um the mass of paul vi or the mass subsequent to the reforms of 1970 uh latin should i think have it have a preeminent place in the liturgy that the faithful should be encouraged to learn the basic prayers of the church in latin you know i've been saying the mass parts and by that i'm referring to the gloria uh the song to the holy holy holy um and uh perhaps even the creed and so i could learn it in english first and then and then i could learn it but uh but but i i think there's a kind of baseline here that that is an invitation because when we learn these things in another language we work work invited to reflect on the meaning of the words and to read to re-encounter them so i think it has that kind of spiritual benefit for someone who's taking on that project too okay so with that let's turn to it to our last uh our our last point of reflection on the liturgy um music uh father jacob urchin you want to narrate a little bit um and the situation of church music yeah and referring again to the same same document the soccer song concilium um for for notes on on how music ought to inform our liturgical worship in the mass um and the liturgy at large really um so uh one of the things um one of the things with music that i think uh we have to recognize is is that singing in the mass um it's a dispositive reality um in in as much as it makes us better worshipers and more receptive to to receive the grace that's being offered and this is this is if you think about the way that we worship as catholics this is how so many of the pieces of our liturgical worship work from our body positions of standing kneeling sitting from the stained glass windows from the smells and bells as it were you know the incense and the sounds and the the way the priest moves and the way they're altered all of that is is meant to help us aid us in our worship so to music so i think that's really important in thinking okay i think that is really important and thinking and thinking about the way in which music is approached soccer sanctum concilium the document again that reformed the liturgy um says this about chant the church acknowledges gregorian chant as especially as specially suited to the roman liturgy therefore other things being equal it should be given pride of place and liturgical services okay so that's that's full stop that's the the music of the church is gregorian chant um you can't have it any other way uh that's just simply what it is now can you incorporate other things hymns sure can you incorporate other types of music yeah you can the document also says that polyphony or like if you think sacred harmonized music um other kinds of sacred music especially polyphony are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action um and then regarding instruments the document says that it is the organ the pipe organ that is held in quote high esteem um and should be used uh for for for worship other instruments can be used they may be admitted um not really you know not the highest so why though why is chant and then polyphony less so than chant why is politic so important to our worship well because because chant above everything else above any other form of music is text based it is focused on the word namely the word of scripture and the chant that we chant uh the things that we sing in in the context of mass ought to draw us into christ who is the word so when chant is is sung it is it is easier to understand the word what is being said it is less distracted by music and and harmonies and um you know how polyphony has the the all the different kind of movements at once in in there but it helps us understand the word better there's also a reality and perhaps we won't spend as much time talking about this but the sacredness the otherness of worship as as liturgical music gets closer and closer to secular music it becomes less and less sacred and more and more secular and what happens in a church ought to not reflect the profane but the the sacred so there's something to be said for having a sort of music a type of music that is reserved for liturgical worship for the worship of god that isn't also played on the radio or at a party or like you know those kind of things um or sounds like things that are played on the radio or at a party there should be some otherness that draws us into the mystery of of liturgical worship i think if our listeners want a a real kind of wild visual of this the kind of the kind of thing we're talking about in the end to to really see the way the psycho vatican council changed uh music in the church they should look up elvis presley and mary tyler moore's 1969 classic american film change of habit at the end of the film you can find this on youtube at the end of the film there's this wild scene where uh the the mass is still being celebrated as it as a traditional mass so the priest is facing odd orientum and there's latin and the liturgy and things that things are pretty solemn with the exception of elvis presley standing in the sanctuary with a guitar it's a it's a pretty wild contrast and certainly offers some food for thought about the nature of music and the liturgy and the way the changes may or may not have been adapted it would have been fine if you were in the choir loft i mean that would you know it's a pretty it's a it's a pretty wild scene um as regards music i mean the the church invites and calls for enculturation we know that the church because of the nature of the gospel of jesus adapts unto herself the traditions of every nation and not only does she do that she she seizes these traditions uh but she cleanses and purifies them in the light of the gospel um so there's a there's a tension here to be brought about and explored um with the question of acculturation liturgical music and the the clear and evident um preferences of the council i think personally in the united states we're at a point where um we should be animating efforts to teach chant and uh singing of singing of traditional music because the the typical experience is not that so that indicates that that we're we're further on one side of this uh this question than on another um the teaching of chant i think has a very um therapeutic and peaceful effect i mean people when they can't sleep they turn on cds of gregorian chant and i think in in a in an age when the liturgy should be solemn and reflective and should invite people to peace and to pray to a kind of sunday repose that that that element um is important and is really beneficial um so father jacob bertrand you have any closing remarks on these three uh these three elements of the mass like what's our uh what are our what are our action steps what are we to do going forward what do we want here is to understand is important yeah i think the the a couple two like two important points and then a couple of wrap-up thoughts super quick though one is that the the the reason we're bringing these things up is to is is to show to to shed light on the continuity of the church's liturgy throughout um throughout especially the 20th century now have there been abuses and sort of crazy things that have disrupted that continuity yes but did the church envision that no um so if you haven't if you're interested in liturgical things in the mass and you haven't read this document sakura sanctum concilium it's not terribly long it might be worth doing that the usccb the us conference of bishops also has documents on the liturgy those things are helpful just to get a sense of like okay what does the church say and what does she provide for our worship um the other thing the other point here is the importance of catechesis that we've come back to a couple of times as father patrick said you know just throwing chant or throwing you know this or that at a congregation it just really is a repeat of what happened 60 years ago after the council of just throwing things out and that kind of thing and we can't we can't abide that we can't do that and we're not called to do that we're called to learn and to learn about our lord in the way by which we are to worship him better so as to enter into that better and if we if we miss that point then then we're just you know we're we're making the same mistakes history is going to repeat itself and that's that's a dangerous territory so i guess the last thing that i'll say is like you know what can we say and what can't we say well with respect to the orientation of the priest uh language latin or the vernacular music what we can say is that all of these can be used and should be used properly in the mass and in fact we should be disposed to use them that doesn't mean that every single mass has to only have gregorian chant that's not what we're saying but it's it's an invitation to dive into the rich tradition of our church's liturgical worship whether in the traditional rite or in the novus ordo what we can't say is that we can't be using these things or we shouldn't be using these things because the church doesn't say that um so it's an invitation again to learn to pray different to pray better to dive more deeply into our our tradition and and come to know our lord in new and bigger ways mike dropped by the way by the conclusion i just want to take a moment to thank all of our listeners um if you like this episode please share it on social media give it to someone in your parish who thinks could benefit from listening to us uh that you think that they could benefit from listening to us that was almost a coherent thought i need more coffee gosh um please uh consider donating to the podcast we appreciate uh the gifts the regular gifts of our patreon supporters as you've noticed we've been hosting on friday afternoons live splaining episodes those have been really dynamic and very well received we want to thank you if you participated in those if you haven't yet check them out uh every other friday at 3 p.m on the youtubes that popular source of entertainment on the interwebs uh we get together and talk about your questions so if you listen to this episode that was really interesting to me well on a live splaining we can talk about what you want to talk about uh finally uh check out our merch uh god's planning has a store and we have kidney packs oh i mean fanny packs uh father jacob richard is a huge fan he wears his around all the time pulls his face out of it yeah i don't wear it all the time but i have one it's his hiking pouch his woodsman apparel yeah that's right okay uh but check out the merch uh support us that way and show your god's planning pride um great and please know of our gratitude to you for supporting us and as always be assured of our prayers god bless thanks for listening to god's planning a work of the dominican friars of the province of saint joseph follow us on facebook twitter and instagram leave a review on your podcast app and visit us at godsplaining.org [Music]

Channel: Godsplaining Podcast

Views: 831

Rating: 4.9578948 out of 5

Keywords: catholic, dominican friars, theology, philosophy, religion, faith, order of preachers, godsplaining, seekers, Truth, preaching, questions, searching, prayer, meditation, #mass, #traditional, #latinmass

Id: 3nZq9TnbwZI

Length: 35min 10sec (2110 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 02 2021