EP-180 |Diplomacy, Western Media, 2024 Polls, Revanna Passport Row, Constitution ft. Dr S Jaishankar

the Western media uh then picks up from the Indian media or picks up the cues from the Indian political system they also talk about it that oh look under Modi Chief ministers are put in jail in uh the country today there is a certain thought process or entitlement process which I think that metaphor Khan Market gang is a very good description of that I want to tell you there's an international con Market gang as well these are people who are sort of linked uh you know uh to the entitled people out here they are socially comfortable with them they know them they feel like them the sales are down in the domestic con Market the international con con Market gang feels look I I need to pep up these guys and and uh give them support brael RNA case and why was he allowed to get out the country why is his passport not being impounded mea got this request from Karnataka only on the 21st of May people were saying a lot of things to the Press I don't know about how other government state governments are otherwise function we at least in M function as per the law the opposition says uh it's going to be D me and utar half for us it would be D May double and for the opposition I would say UT may even more trouble whether it is Mr Rahul Gandhi or Mr K they keep saying that the reservation uh issue is extremely important because Modi government has no respect for the Constitution Constitution does not provide faith-based reservation you are actually implementing and advancing faith-based reservations and then you say I have respect for constitution you are this against the Constitution 80 odd amendments to the Constitution were done by who by the [Music] congressman Namaste J hind you're watching or listening to another edition of the Ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is the external affairs Minister Mr s ja Shankar he has served a 5-year term in the Modi cabinet and is a member of the rajas Saba as we head to the last two phases of the groing seven rounds of polling and the end of the mammoth Indian election I talked to Dr Jay the politician Dr J thank you so much for being part of the podcast lovely to have you here uh you've done uh quite a few uh podcast interviews interactions so uh I don't want to ask you the regular Pakistan China Iran us UK um Europe thank you very much okay um I thought I'd Begin by asking you about uh Dr J Shanker the politician uh the campaigning that you have done in this uh round of election so I just want to know how many states did you campaign in and what was different this time well uh I campaigned I think in 10 or 11 I still have to to go I'm going to up tomorrow day after and then to Himel uh what what was different well in a way for me campaigning was different uh because I have campaigned I campaigned in Gujarat vidhan SAA elections I campaigned in Karnataka but general elections is something very different uh so it's one thing to be a voter to even to be a very interested voter uh a politically aware voter uh to have watched elections across the world but when you have your own and you are part of it and you are um participating campaigning motivating others it's a it's a very different experience well you know um you're not a career politician a bureaucrat got into uh real politic in a way but when you became external affairs minister it was like kind of a continuation of the job that you were doing but when when everybody saw you out there um pinching baby's cheeks and walking in uh cabin park with the retirees uh eating uh Dosa at uh some D you know that that's a different kind of uh work involved did it need a lot of effort or did it come naturally to you uh I would say it came naturally because I remember you're now seeing me at the end of a term so I mean what you refer to is the beginning of a term 5 years have elapsed okay in these 5 years I've actually uh been functioning and absorbing what is a political world uh very good colleagues who have you know who helped you make that transition uh some of it is there already because look even I tell people you know diplomats are a kind of politician I mean we are very adjustable people we go out to foreign environments look at our you know ground situation figure out what to do we you know we are we are not people who are bureaucrats in that regular sense of of the term uh but uh definitely yes I I even I feel uh I've learned a lot of things each each election each visit out um was was uh something I mean you know uh I I think one experience which was very helpful was during the covid time uh when you know many of us ministers we went out in the field uh to to help out to raise morale to you know convince people that we can we can find a way of collectively dealing with it so it's a combination uh of a of a lot of this and in a way a kind of an evolution uh which which has happened and and I uh find it very interesting I mean you know uh you would see that uh I mean it's it's something which which uh I I sort of yeah you took naturally to it got but you know like when in the decades that you've been in the Foreign Service um basically you were pushing the envelope of the India story in all the countries that you went as Ambassador when you went in as a junior Diplomat and then later uh as um you know as external affairs minister but when you speak to firsttime voters when you speak to experienced voters uh they are people who already believe in the India story it's a different communication that you need to do um what was what was your message to the young voters to firsttime voters to even preens I saw you at the Delhi Tamil school also talking about chabahar and I was quite am that youngsters are interested in they brought it up yeah they brought it up so I was wondering uh how did the conversations come up in these places well uh you know uh one of course to some extent what you tell different demographics is something slightly different because it has to be nuanced and appropriate for that particular generation but if you ask me in this two months let us say what has surprised me uh uh I'm actually very impressed by the extent of Interest today uh in foreign policy uh and in the country's International standing across the country I'm not talking Delhi Mumbai Kolkata I'm talking boner dwar sambalpur you know amiter I mean this these are uh sort of uh really uh examples to you you know of of uh uh what would not be metropolitan cities okay Amar may be closer to it uh where today there is an enormous interest I mean uh very often yes I've been you know uh to a lot of these the the Orthodox way of campaigning uh you know when you go for the nomination you go with a candidate you're you're on a truck you're mixing with people all of that is there but uh generally what happens there's always a request there saying you know uh please speak and sometimes it's 2 three uh occasions in a day uh and uh U typically I would say whatever is the capacity of the hall they you know it's full and sometimes they have a problem because the interest is more than than the capacity and and these are actually uh genuine interest about you know uh what are the challenges uh what are we going to do how did you go through this situation that situation so and some some issues repeatedly come up Ukraine po uh I would say my experience number one would be the whole Ukraine rescue operation res there there huge huge interest you know uh today and and by the way not just interest I've had uh at least three occasions where somebody from the audience who is either themselves a person who who came out of Ukraine or was a family member of uh came up and said look I would like to come up there and thank you and thank prime minister okay uh I would say Ukraine was for me the most frequently Asked question uh the second would be the whole Russia oil issue you know how do you stand up to pressure uh uh the third I would say uh to some extent yes p uh p uh would be issue I actually uh was taken aack because I find the UN Security Council issue coming up you know it's not something I would have readily imagined sitting in Delhi uh but clearly people see that very much as a matter of national Prestige of pride of of what is today possible what do they ask you that up why the do they blame uh the bureaucracy or the political dispensation they feel it's something we should strive for uh they want an informed look uh with me normally people are not seeking a big a big picture of explanation you know they want a reasonable logical where are we where will we want to go how will it happen uh kind of things so uh so I actually uh Shar it with them uh that the entire system is gamed against us because that's what one gets to hear uh a lot on social media that whether it is the Western Media or whether it is at the un uh the system against India you're talking UNC or talking uh in UNC they look they do understand uh today that uh we have to make our presence felt uh we have to push back uh you know as I said the most frequently Asked question uh uh is the Ukraine War uh uh and the whole rescue operation but the second is that oil issue and they do feel uh they share that sentiment that Western countries were unreasonable in their expectation that they were phasing out their own uh buys out of Russia and demanding uh that we are much lower income country terminate it and and then we all go into the Middle East where they will actually out compete us uh and basically you know we will end up with the short end of the stick uh so uh so I think the feeling is yes uh Western countries often uh have uh not uh you know being understanding of India often are condescending about India demanding of India uh uh you know a lot of these comments about uh about our elections about our democratic process I think people resent that also they find that terribly condescending and in fact there is a uh you know uh sometimes I say things believe me they say lot much more to me than I actually say because uh the feeling is frankly people take a lot of Pride uh in our own uh processes and uh don't like it at all when people uh you know who who don't have that uh credentials uh pass pass comments on it do they want the mea to push back uh when there are superious comments made about uh Indian democracy about Indian foreign policy do they want the ministry of external Affairs to push back yes absolutely absolutely you know and uh I mean I mean I'll be very honest with you I mean I think one of the reasons uh why uh they they are Keen to talk to me is they feel that you know uh under the Modi government uh they've seen somebody like me push back and and they like it and they they feel this is really what should be done so one part of it is that there's also that sense about China that you know China's uh pressing us on the border we are standing up on many issues today we are willing to say things which earlier on we didn't used to say you know let us say giving protection to the uh to terrorists from un sanctions you know that that kind of stuff so it's not it's I would say in overall confidence in the country in the country's prospects where we are going and that we don't need to bend and we don't need to kind of look down uh in front of the world and and when you stand up straight and strong they like it that's what they want you to do that's the kind of government they want not be apologetic on any issue right accept mistakes but not be apologetic absolutely right uh the other thing I've noticed is that people keep asking you about what is it like to work with Mr Modi what is the uh how does he work how many hours do you work and what those kind of questions also come your way yes more than many other politicians I'm I've seen that you get asked this almost in every interaction that I've seen they ask you is he a hard task master do does he give you goals to achieve and timelines they keep asking you this uh yes they do and I I not your point and I my my own sense is uh partly they see me traveling a lot with him so so perhaps the sense okay because you travel with the Prime Minister you uh you are uh maybe a better person to ask about working habits and you know how many hours and when does he sleep and how much pressure is there and how much latitude does he give you uh Etc maybe maybe I don't know maybe I'm more open to talking about I I really don't know the reason but I I do I do take your point you know the prime minister in a recent interaction uh said that uh when he came in he didn't want your puran he was talking about uh how foreign policy and uh how it was changing and he said that like he said when I went to Israel I didn't go to pales H the Hy Nation something that used to irritate India to a large extent about the Hy nation and he says that I didn't accept advice which was given to me uh you know because bureaucracy and I said I don't want to see my countries uh with through the prism of other uh relationships he was explaining that you worked with him uh when he was in the first term and in the second term in different capacities so tell me how did that work you as a bureaucrat you as a minister does one have to be dynamic does one have to change with every prime minister you know um look uh my uh acquaintanceship uh with Prime Minister Modi before he became prime minister was all of about 3 days uh when he came on a visit to China but those three days were enough for me uh to understand that he had views and he had his assessment and he had had he had a lot of experience much more than people who didn't know him or didn't care to find out uh their impression was very different then I met him uh about maybe uh two weeks after he became prime minister I came I was then in us I came back and I could see again that he he had a view and and uh part of those had already been expressed in the fact that he had got all all our neighbors uh to come for the uh for the O taking you know that was the 2014 that was much his personal idea it was not a bureaucracy's idea they wouldn't have liked it right the old system of bureaucracy I I don't the term he used was uh okay look I I want to be fair I wasn't there so I don't know who said what but I do know that that was his idea okay so I have always started had the presumption from the first three days then from those four or five encounters when I was Ambassador in the period when he was in the US on that visit and I've always felt he had views uh he has this ability to question to continuously kind of can we do it differently can we do it better self-improvement you can say in a way and he keeps challenging you but the challenge is a two-way process you know uh it's not like he's reached the conclusion at the beginning of a conversation you know he will throw up a set of propositions and all he invites you to throw up a set of propositions does he do that yes I know in the case of you know I know in the case of Israel and uh Palestine he had that view very clearly and he said this very very early that when I do that Israel visit he said I want to do only that Israel visit there he had made up his mind now he went bya Jordan no Israel we went straight straight okay the Palestine we went by Jordan okay so look it's it's it's interactive he's very uh you know he's a in a way a a person who constantly challenges you when you when you work with him uh you have very active uh conversations uh and he's very fond of a kind of a team team think a team review you know everybody gathers around the table uh so I me some favorite words review feed back uh and uh normally he speaks at the end uh and it starts with the junior most person so that you know they don't get crowded yeah they don't get crowded by somebody senior speaking first then you know there's pressure on them otherwise so there's a there's a kind of culture there's a culture about it so when this team sat together and you were given the target Charo par did you like most other people I'm talking of foreign policy I know I'm jumping now to politics that when when when you were given a target of Charo power uh see I'm being Dynamic just like the mea has become Dynamic so when uh the target was given char did you like us in the media think how can it be did you people think like that no uh say you got to understand how many other things had happened by the time you are seeing the col the end point of a process huh I because uh I'm a member of parliament I'm a minister I'm member of BJP I'm also uh party to a whole set of deliberations and meetings and and various exercises you know so it was not Havi no look uh I I can tell you uh I'm talking about 2 years ago uh where you know uh many of us were assigned cons told go visit a constituency and give us a sense of prospects what are the challenges how do these are constituencies we had not won okay so there was actually look this is the BJP you talking about uh think there is a process there is a there is a kind of an exercise out of which an outcome is produced people there is not the other party where somebody decides in the morning what to say and everybody says it so that is a you're a politician not who are you hinting at no I'm not hinting I mean you know and I know but look here's the bottom line we had actually done this exercise of which were the seats we did not win uh in the 2019 election what should we do to try and win those seats among them what looks more likely who should you know what are the changes we need to make so there's a whole exercise which is done to arrive at the 370 that 370 was not uh uh a sort of a figure out of the out of the net H so so so it didn't come as a surprise to you at all no I mean look I I mean many of us may not have known okay it would be exactly 3 you know it would be 370 but we knew that it would be a very ambitious Target but uh the opposition says uh it's going to be D mea and utar me half what do you have to say to that because you've you've traveled D and utar so where what is it I I think from our point of view I would say for us it would be d double and for the opposition I would say UT even more trouble even more trouble so utar now we heading into the uh two phases of uh polling last two phases of polling do you still feel does the party still feel because Congress says mamata banery Congress uh samajwadi party all of them say that you're not going to get the number of seats that you expected in the north uh okay and East I can answer it many ways one I can go to their own predictions at various elections including the last elections please look at what they said and what actually happened so they're not exactly great election result predictors I mean obviously look in the middle of an election if a set of parties are losing you know uh they what can they say tell people listen we're all losing I mean as it is I mean these are parties many of them their candidates have left the field I mean forget about uh supporters coming yeah in orisa It Happened Congress candidate uh so the point is that look uh the uh I think I think the on the ground the sentiment to me is very clear I mean I can see definitely in the South uh much much greater uh support and much greater enthusiasm than I've ever seen and some our states have been visiting many times you know uh I've been Kerala for example multiple times I saw I was at the nomination of a candidate and spent some time in telingana you know that kind of upsurge and and enthusiasm very very strong I think we will definitely pick up many more seats in the South uh I went to odisa I think again feeling is that we'll improve our numbers in odisa I the senses will improve our numbers in Bengal I went to Bengal and Bengal uh you you can actually see this reflected uh in uh the kind of because even on the turnout issue you know turnout can sometimes higher turnout can help you or not but we feel very confident that in uh uh Bengal in odisha in uh telingana Tamil Nadu Kerala we'll pick up pick up B sayi you know so so look if anybody who sits with the numbers I think the there is a there is a calculation of the now uh you spoke about Bengal uh mam banery has in every campaign speech says that if the BJP comes to power when you mean okay uh it's going to be the last election in this country because Modi G is going to be the dictator who's going to end all elections that's one thing the second thing she has said is she has refused to accept the Kolkata high court order on obcs the third thing that she says is that she warns people not to sign up for the ca she says don't sign that document because forget citizenship you will be uh there will be discrimination against you I think the first one is ludicrous I mean this is we've seen I mean uh this is a country where Democratic Traditions Run Deep uh you have a party uh today which has a very strong Democratic ethos you have a prime minister who's very proud of being the prime minister of the uh biggest oldest and greatest democracy in the world I would we pride ourselves today on our Democratic credentials so if we are doing very well in the Democratic process I mean why why would we have uh any any doubts about it it is in fact this is a losers argument okay I mean the very fact she's making the argument itself shows that she knows what the results are going to be on on June 4th uh regarding the uh the high court judgment you know that whole issue look one of course what she says to me is extraordinary I mean if a court says gives a verdict I mean we we've all been at the receiving end of verdicts of Courts you don't say to the court I will not obey what you say you say Okay I I will appeal to some higher court if that option is open to you but no you know an administrative Authority does not defy a Judicial pronouncement that's not the way democracy functions so I mean here you talking of future of democracy I mean first please practice democracy and and you know defying a court is not a way of practicing a democracy the third issue look on CA I I think it's a straightforward issue I mean uh we have created a faster pathway for people who um who needed that who are who have a claim uh to that and be you know definitely in we feel this is the way of normaliz Iz in them otherwise they will remain forever in that sort of you can say that hazy zone of not knowing what the legal status is and in this country uh you know so today when so many uh of your entitlements uh are based on on documentation I mean that's not the way maybe they would like to run governance you know maybe they like everything very fuzzy and siony uh out there but I think in know in a clean uh transparent system documentation it's very important for everybody but when you come to if I was to come back to the reservation issue it's something that even the Congress has picked up whether it is Mr Rahul Gandhi or Mr kge they keep saying that the reservation uh issue is extremely important because the uh Modi government has no respect for the Constitution and uh they will eradicate uh uh reservations for schedule cast and schedule Tri okay so uh let's separate the two issues okay the I uh because I have comments on both respect for Constitution and eradicate you know and the reservation issue who has actually attacked reservation in this country actually if you look at it most of all the congress party and some other parties of the uh India because what did they do they have actually systematically used Faith the argument of faith and created minority institutions and taken away reservation from those who had it now we know one of you know there are the famous cases jamama Mia University being one of them but there are 9,000 institutions like this so which means that declare jamama as minority and they don't get reservations so who loses so essentially what are you doing look here because the you know that's why from there I come to the Constitution what does the Constitution provide for in this country Constitution provides for reservation for schedule cast schedu tribes and then thereafter for the obeses Constitution does not provide faith based reservation but effectively what are you doing you are you know you are advocating uh not advocating you're actually implementing and advancing faith-based reservations and then you say I have respect for constitution you are this against the Constitution now when you speak of the Constitution let's look at the Constitution okay 80 odd amendments to the Constitution were done by who by the congress party okay so the party which has the highest record of changing the Constitution now has the tarity to say other people have intent on the Constitution the party which is actually doing an end round around reservations is saying oh the other guy has intent on res on doing this the ground reality is totally different and if you look not just to that you know forget I mean let's say for a moment put the letter of the Constitution aside take even the spirit of the Constitution tell me which which article of the Constitution allows governance by remote control you know who was really controlling policy for this 10 years of UPA and which how what was the Constitutional sanctity of it you're talking about the NC yes no and and the whole culture look when somebody can come into a meeting and tear up what the cabinet has approved Ro where is the respect for constitution then I mean today again I hear you know I will tear up this I will tear up that you know if you think you are entitled to tear up what you don't like and then say Oh by the way I have respect for constitution you really think people are going to buy that but why did the prime minister of the day accept it then this is what I'm trying to say is that it's easy for uh him to say it because whatever he says whatever Rahul Gandhi says is done when his party is in power because because that was the culture of that party that is still the culture of that party so when you talk about democracy we go back now to MTA you know where is a democracy if there is a inheritance system of a party where the culture of the party is the the lineage will determine what is the power so I mean to my mind the parad is fundamentally anti-democratic and if you look at the parties of the India lands them SP Sapa DMK what unites them parar and parad is fundamentally against democracy but isn't this something I mean look at America you have the bushes you have the kennedies isn't this something that's there everywhere Japan everywhere you have no no look uh to some extent I'm not saying we are the only country with parar but in many other cases the the person the parar member the next generation has to go through a certain process George Bush did not hand it over to J W bush see there's a difference yeah you went through a primary you contested against other people you won some you lost some through hanging CHS and those things yeah those things happen yeah so look we cannot rational you know we cannot say par happens everywhere in the world I agree it may happen in other countries okay others may have their drawbacks that doesn't mean it makes it good in this country okay but here's my point if you look at respect for constitution because let's go through the issues you have listed out you look at respect for constitution a party which has 80 plus amendments to the Constitution whose own governance practices shows disrespect for Constitution which has actually done clever end rounds and runs around the Constitution has no you know grounds for today talking about respect for constitution secondly on on reservation a party which has systematically taken away reservation from SC St and OBC and given it to its vot bank has no face to talk about reservation and third a party and a set of parties here who actually have done this parent to Next Gen uh handing over the Bon I mean for them to talk about democracy I think is thick but this is this is also something that the Western media uh then picks up from the Indian media or picks up the cues from the Indian political system they also talk about it that oh look under Modi Chief ministers are put in jail okay uh again let me let me dissect your uh issue uh Western media why why are they doing it not let's let's be fair not all of them many of them okay see there is a in in uh the country today there is a certain U I would say thought process or entitlement process uh which I think that metaphor KH Market gang is a very good description of them okay now you may or may not realize it I want to tell you there's an international con Market gang as well these are people who are sort of linked uh you know uh to uh the entitled people people out here they are socially comfortable with them they know them they feel like them they they Advance similar viewpoints they are essentially a kind of a elitist left Li thought process so there's a symbiotic relationship between the two so I think when uh the sales are down in the domestic con Market the international KH g con Market gang feels look I I need to pep up these guys and and uh give them support and you can actually see you know uh you you can actually see uh which stories they play up how do they slant things they in in fact in previous elections perhaps even in this one they have actually openly endorsed parties they openly endorsed leaders and openly said that you know this party or this leader is bad for India so they've taken International media endorsing uh or International Khan Market gang that you're talking about endorsing political parties in India how is that not election interference then I I believe it is election influence certainly uh I mean depending on uh how strongly you take it I I think you have a point there and it's not just them you know there's a see it's a it's a press University Think Tank some you know in some cases maybe some degree of official uh official Dum at some kind of medium level because the guy up there the guys up there are very smart you know they don't uh get into this so there is there is I mean a very clear attempt being made a very persistent attempt being made to actually influence the direction of Indian politics and the choices of the Indian voter it is it Peaks at election time but it continues even after that you know all these rankings that you get what do you think they are they're all an attempt to demoralize you delegitimize you to to kind of shape you know all these things are wrong with India because India is going to give them a result they don't like and it's difficult to forget about countering for it's difficult to not get influence because there is a systematic uh you know bombardment of information like this first from the foreign media then domestic media then think tank then University level conversations which happen so somewhere you think maybe it's right what they're saying well it would be if it were not contested is it contested I think it is contested certainly you know people like me try to do a bit I think many others do as well uh so I think today this country is confident enough look I I've been very clear on one thing uh lot of these influence attempts we recognize it for what it is uh we will counter it but we will certainly call it out so that people know what this is is about and I think our own counters then develop you know when I again in in the course of my campaigning this issue comes up a lot and I can tell you people you know the Indian public by and large recognizes it for what it is nobody came up to you and said which I noticed that when far Abdullah said thatle but I noticed that nobody in the interactions with you came around said hey he has a point of view why don't you talk to them why do you think that that happened look uh in uh in respect of uh What uh Dr Faruk Abdullah said I think the remarks he made in a way give you a a sense of the thinking okay uh this respect for Pakistan's bomb this advocacy of don't do anything you know this is also the advocacy we saw at 2611 you know terrible attack on us we are outraged but we have decided after careful deliberation to do nothing you know because it is a desire to conciliate Pakistan to appease Pakistan because somewhere in their minds everything is linked vot bank is linked that whole Kashmir KY Arrangements is linked the Pakistan policy is link it comes as a package okay because if you see the same people all have similar position all of this you know the KH Market International KH Market gang yes and this is there's a speciality shop I'm going keep coming back to that there's a appeasement super appeasement block within that market okay okay so so the fact the mumb so yeah yes in a in a way so you can you can say that look they have uh convinced themselves uh and they are seeking to convince the country that this is the best way by which we should exist I think the rest of the country doesn't accept it you know look the rest of the country was outraged at the lack of response to 2611 the rest of the country saw the 370 was a scam the 370 was a continuation of an arrangement because it benefited some people and today the country is even more convinced of it because the country is saying okay 5 years after 370 was abated look at the results on the ground you know even that you could have debated look at how the polling has taken place let me come to 2611 and that you know that period when inaction or deliberate inaction was seen as a positive and if you remember at that time the New York Times Washington Post all of them saw this as uh a a fantastic decision by the then dispensation a very mature decision to hold back and it was appreciated uh world when those guys praise you get worried but carry on but that's exactly ly what the Prime Minister said in an interaction that I don't work for editorials particularly for those editorials yeah so that's what I want to know that they I have seen the ministry of external Affairs getting riled up in the past over editorials do they still get riled up does it does it do you try to get uh them to understand your point of view how does it work see uh I don't think we get riled up but it is our job to contest uh to convince uh and uh where necessary to communicate okay if somebody some newspaper or some medium whatever you know has a narrative uh and that narrative uh is unfair if the narrative is untruthful and we often encounter this if it is very very slanted I do not think we should hesitate to call it out I to me it's not diplomacy to turn the other cheek it's weakness don't confuse diplomacy is not continuously taking blows from people who mean you ill you know diplomacy is to assess a situation and do what is in the interest of your country and if that means uh doing something on your side also to do it so what happens is when uh when uh these kinds of narratives are Advanced uh then uh I think you need to call it out so sometimes say I get you know I I give you you know I just saw freedom of uh press report I mean I think it's ridiculous I mean can you imagine please look through you I mean I tell all the the journalists of this country should be outraged that you rank in one year I mean not this year last year we were ranked below Afghanistan yeah okay now uh the I mean what what can I say but there are journalists who believe that uh freedom freedom of the press is threatened by your government uh that you do not like disent your party doesn't like descent uh and uh you so much so which is seen in the international media as well as here but it's the on social media you can even see outrage when it's not just this International Khan Market gang but even the state department uh that comes up and says that oh okay democracy and uh is under threat in India or uh there are chief ministers who are being being put in jail or Rahul gandh wait let let's let's look at this okay uh first let us look about politicians facing legal processes so let me ask you one question in other countries when politicians have charges against them what happens they are exempt from legal processes you say oh there's an election coming so guess what uh you are a practicing politician so you are exempt from any legal scrutiny you don't have to come to any hearing there'll be no charges pressed against you do you press the pause button on law when an election comes up is that what other countries do no they don't the law is the law the law goes at its Pace politics goes in its cycle from time to time they could intersect we know the only country where this is happening you can see it in other parts of the world as well so if if a chief minister or any other why chief minister I mean if anybody has done something which warrants a legal process there is no how can you stop it because there is a political compulsion to do so and take a let's look at this examples right now Mr K not only that Mr yeah if the there was there was Prima no case then the court would have said okay here's bail we'll we'll see after that as the process takes place why is it that the court has only given him a limited window he's not got a get out of jail card he's got to get out of jail for 10 days card and come back to jail card after that okay in case of Mr sain he didn't even get that in case of some other op ministers they haven't got it so I would if after all the courts have also looked at it and by the way this is gone all the way to the Supreme Court Okay so if there was nothing to it now if there was something to it then you can't say you know you are a chief minister and therefore nothing should be done because there's an election coming up two questions uh Before I Let You Go election coming up uh when that happened there was this whole prajal ran case and why was he allowed to get out the country why is his uh passport not being impounded uh look uh uh first of all to impound a passport is governed by an act called the passport act we need uh uh a Judicial uh a court or a uh or a uh police uh request to do so MAA got this request from Karnataka only on the 21st of May on the 21st of May I mean people were saying a lot of things to the Press but I we can only act when there is because you know I don't know about how other government state governments are otherwise function we at least in MA function as per the law the law says you can revoke a passport if there is a uh judici either a court or police request comes we got that request on 21st of May we immediately acted on it on 23rd of may he was given you know we we have to follow a certain procedure and the procedure is initiated which means that uh the the Congress government in Karnataka uh while they have been accusing the Modi government of shielding prajal Rana they have actually not gone through the processes to impound his passport they did not take the first step and they knew you know we all know I mean there's not a secret okay okay I mean he's not the first case where ounding of passport is taking place yeah so we got the request from Karnataka government on the 21st of May the other thing which I want to ask which came up in the 2014 election 2019 election that uh there are tax defaulters whether it is mul Choy with n Modi why does it take why is the process so complicated to get these people back to the country and make them go through Indian judicial process you know that is a question uh which mostly we need to ask the UK because that's where the high profile uh people have gone uh and uh we have presented our case strongly as you can see uh multiple rounds of legal proceedings have gone in our favor uh and uh in many ways I think uh you know uh we we continue to press very very uh strongly for their return they obviously use all sorts of arguments and I think it is incumbent on the UK authorities to take a responsible view of it otherwise you know there's a reputational implication for them I mean they will end up being seen as a heaven for tax evaders and tax defaulters uh sir as I conclude I have just one question to ask you the Prime Minister uh said that in his second term when the covid uh pandemic hit uh at that time uh there was a realization in the in him and in the government that humanitarian now it's going to be India which is going to do that and we saw this in the vaccination case we saw this in several other uh thing uh is that going to be something that you will see continuity in Modi 3.0 if you people come back to Power uh Smita what has happened is from even well before the co uh in fact uh I go back to uh even the Nepal earthquake in 2015 uh there was a water crisis in maves there were mudslides in Sri Lanka so over uh the last 10 years we have actually built up a very solid reputation as a first responder so today when we speak about our International standing uh there is a perception especially in the global South that when something goes wrong it is likely that there will be support from India uh these are today the responsibilities more you know we have to as we get bigger we'll have to take on more and that is really what Prime Minister Modi has done in the last 10 years is preparing us to do more because you know most of our conversation today has been understandably about the elections and politics but uh I will also tell you there is this sense which I believe the Indian public has picked up that sense is uh uh India will rise we are getting our domestic act together I mean big changes have happened if we look at the infrastructure look at the social welfare system look at the 7% growth uh look at uh really the inclusive uh benefits of it and the the inclusive employment which comes from it the country is getting its act together we are actually moving forward but we recognize when we look out in the world that it's a very difficult stormy turbulent volatile world out there so people want a safe sensible experienced good judgment kind of leadership uh out there because they know that you know India is going to need we'll need that Vision we'll need that ambition we'll need that motivation but we also need those skills and those good judgments and the confidence to to navigate that and I think that's to me that's one thing which they see a lot of them for them that's very very important uh and that's some you know a great uh value that Prime Minister Modi has uh in their eyes so India at the high table in uh in if Modi comes 3.0 well you keep saying if but uh my job is a journalist no sure uh but uh look uh uh definitely I would say India's uh we will I mean we look with each passing year our our uh influence our presence our ability to shape uh debates is growing and I I can definitely see that I mean definitely in Modi 3.0 I'm I'm very sure that you know foreign policy our International presence and activity would be much much stronger where will you be on June 4th and what will you be doing watching TV I will be watching TV like uh much of the country and what do you think the number is going to be I think the numbers will be strong I I hesitate to put a number number uh but you know uh I I have uh every confidence uh that you know when uh we the prime minister and the party picked 370 uh it was a very serious number we picked after a great deal of preparation for that number and usually uh you can see bhajpa is very serious about its targets and its commitments right on that note thank you so much sir for spending time with us and explaining what uh 2024 election has been to you and to the party thank you so much thank you great pleasure as always thank you for watching or listening to this edition of the Ani podcast with SMI prakash do like or subscribe Namaste J hind click here to watch the previous episodes

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Id: FMaZELgqp3E

Length: 52min 42sec (3162 seconds)

Published: Fri May 24 2024