My name is Monk Rowe and we are filming today
for the Hamilton College Jazz Archive and it is our great pleasure to have today Ed
Shaughnessy, one of the great engines behind some bands over the years, and probably, I
would say you're one of the most recognizable drummers in the country. ES: Yeah, that happens when you're on the
tube for close to thirty years, yeah. See, I'll give you the logo all right, quote,
seen and heard by more people than any drummer in musical history. Now somebody else made that up not me, but
I carry that around sometimes because some press agent made that up a long time ago,
you know. MR: Think of the number of times you've played
[scats Tonight Show theme]. ES: That's right. Five thousand. MR: Amazing. But that's only part of what you did. ES: Oh sure. That was a good way to pay the rent and raise
my family quite frankly, and I still did a lot of jazz work at night and stuff like that. MR: Right. You and Louie Bellson and a few other guys
have just kind of defined modern jazz big band drumming I think. Would you agree with that? ES: Yes, I think we've had some influence
in it. I think another fine contributor, and I'm
sure you would agree would be the late Mel Lewis, a wonderful drummer in his manner and
style of playing. Yeah. But I think that Louie and myself both kind
of have tried to move with the times because you can't really play big band quite the same
today as you would have played it thirty years ago, you know, not quite. And I think we've both tried to move with
the times and I think still try to retain your own identity. That's the secret. MR: Tell us what you're up to these days. ES: Well since the Tonight Show ended three
years ago, I'm really back to being sort of what I was a long time before the Tonight
Show and that is a freelance jazz drummer. I'm really kind of back to home base again,
which is fine, I'm enjoying it immensely. And I do a lot of clinic work at colleges
at high schools. I've been doing that for many years. I like working with kids a lot so I do really
a lot, I've done over 600 by now, schools. And I'd say three out of four are colleges
and maybe one out of four is high school. But I like them both, they're fun to work
with the kids, you know. The thing about kids playing music is that
when they're really into it, they're really into it for the music, not yet near the big
buck syndrome or anything else, you know. And you find a little bit later then some
of them start to smell the rock & roll money - this is later after school - and then there's
a whole different thing that starts to happen with some of them. But the ones that really love jazz and want
to stay in that area, they're the ones that I really have the most fun with. They're great to work with. MR: Do they - is the idea of playing Swing
new to them in some cases or have they been exposed to that? ES: Well it would really all depend on the
band director. There are some places you go where I would
say that that skill hasn't been developed very well, and there are other places you
go where it's fair. Fair is about the best. I spend 90 percent of my time trying to get
people to play jazz time well. I mean I really can't get into complex things
like odd meters or coordination and independence when those are important, because most of
the people aren't grooving. They are not swinging. And if they don't have that, they are really
of not much value to their organization, whether it be big band or small band. So quite frankly, I spent a lot of time of
that, but that's, it'd be like Milt Hinton sitting here talking about getting them to
play good time and good changes, right? If you don't have that on bass you're not
a good bass player. So it's something I'm trying to help keep
alive in my own small way because it's - every once in a while it's in danger of disappearing. Since everyone is sort of MTV exposed, and
we have so little exposure for jazz on a public medium like television, that - it's nobody's
fault - it's just that the kids and even the teachers, they don't have a chance to see
like high class, what I call "world class" drummers play jazz. So they don't know how it goes. They've got a million guys, you know, flailing
away playing hard rock and heavy metal, but there is very little example for them. The only saving grace today, Monk, is that
we have videos. And you can really live in Squeedonk or in
some corner of the country and if you can afford to buy an occasional video of a good
player you will get some really good hands-on stuff. You know that's the one thing we have today
that takes the place of the lack of live bands to look at. MR: Yeah, so many of the guys have mentioned
that there's not the training ground that there used to be. ES: Oh, no. Well I graduated high school, I was 16, and
by 17 I was on a band bus working with like Grade Z bands, you know-
MR: Grade Z. ES: Yeah, well we used to call it Grade Z,
and you'd work your way up through the alphabet until finally you got up to the B's and the
A's and the Dorseys and the Goodmans and Basie and Ellington. But that's really your training groups. And you know and if you were a young guy,
like me, you always would seem to be working with most guys who are a little bit older
than you, if you were the kind of a guy that got an early start like I did. And this was a great advantage because they
played better, they were more mature as far as even the road and everything, so you had
a little help from guys like that. And I always appreciated that. Guys were always good looking after the kids
in the band so to speak. MR: Right, right. Let me take you back, because I heard, I read
story and I like to know if these stories are true about how you got your first drum
set? ES: Oh, my first drum set? Yeah I guess you know the story. My dad, who was a Teamster, he worked on the
docks, he had loaned $20 to somebody, and the fellow was up against it, he couldn't
give him the $20, and he said to my dad, "doesn't your son like music?" Because at the time I was playing piano. I played piano for like three or four years
before drums. And he said "oh yeah, my kid, he just loves
his music, he loves everything about music." And he was a mellow guy, my dad. So the guy said "well look, I can't give you
the $20, but I've got these two drums, a bass drum and a snare drum with a stand you know
and a little pedal" and I think a beat up old cymbal, and "would you take that in place
of the 20 bucks." And like I said my dad being a mellow dude,
he was a mellow dude, he said "yeah, if you're broke, my kid will probably have fun with
these things" you know. So my dad, we didn't have a car, we never
had a car, he brought them home from New York on the subway that went from New York to New
Jersey. We didn't have a car. And you know I appreciated how he did that,
he brought them home and on the bus, from the subway to home. That's the way you did it in those days. You didn't think twice about it. I guess they let you on with crazy things
like that. And so he, to make a long story short, I'm
14, he brings these old beat up drums in, I mean really beat up, old, like from the
30's or 20's or something. And I can't explain it to you, but something
fascinating happened when I opened them up. It took me half a day to set the snare drum
up on the stand right I think, and put the pedal on. You know I didn't know anything about drums. But I'd been fooling around with some drum
sticks that somebody had given me, and I wasn't enamored of the piano. I kind of liked it but I didn't love it, you
know? And I was practicing and I wasn't playing
popular music. I played the Blues by myself, which my piano
teacher really didn't like. You know she was into [scats]. And I'm playing the Blues. And I saw a movie that influenced me a lot
- "Blues in the Night" - do you ever remember a movie called "Blues in the Night?" MR: Some people have mentioned that. ES: Well it's a late 30's like '39 or '40,
but it's terrific because it's a jazz band movie with a couple of the ex dead end kids
playing roles, and oh that movie turned my life around. I thought, that's what I want to be. I want to be one of those jazz guys on the
road. Even though they had a terrible life. But it was glamorous, you know? When they were hot they were hot. The music, and the lead character was a drummer
too. So anyway, these are strange ways to take
up your life's instrument I know but it's the truth and I'm telling you, so I started
fooling around on these drums down in the basement. We lived in a tenement you know, where they
have about ten families. So you couldn't play in the apartment, so
I would fool around. And from the minute I started fooling around
with the drums, I just felt this great big love for that instrument that I'd never felt
for the piano. And I immediately sought out my scout master
who was a good rudimental drummer, and he started teaching me, you know? And I became a madman. I would practice - even going to school I
was practicing 4-6 hours a day, which means, I mean that's a real nut, that's a kid who's
a nut. But I loved every minute of it. It was like I'd really found something. And the radio played a great role in my life. I would turn on all the remotes of Woody Herman,
Count Basie which was still going then, this is in the 40's, and I would play the drums
with these great bands, see? And I mean what better, what more inspiration
could you have then Basie or Woody Herman with that great First Herd? I mean it was all smoking, you know? And I'd think ahhhhh - this is great. And I'd be down there playing on these beat
up old, bad drums, but you know the equipment isn't the important thing at the time. It's that feeling that you have. And I said to myself, someday I'll play with
a band like that. And may God be my judge, I am not varnishing
it at all. It's not very glamorous sitting in an old
beat up cellar playing on old beat up drums, but that is the way it started. And I often wondered, now if my dad hadn't
brought the drums home, I wonder if I would have sought out getting some drums. I was drumming with drum sticks, but I can't
honestly say to you I had the ambition to be a drummer. But it's like a lot of kids, you know, kids,
a lot of kids that I know that I've worked with in schools, they'll start on one instrument,
but I'm sure you know this as an educator, they'll go to two or three others before they
settle. So anyway-
MR: And three years later you were out? ES: Three years later I was on the road playing
with professional bands. That's a true story, yeah. George Shearing gave me my first job in New
York when I was about eighteen. I was sitting in with Bud Powell and he played
"Cherokee" for twenty-five minutes, and I stayed with it. And George Shearing said anyone that could
play "Cherokee" at that tempo for twenty-five minutes, I'm going to give a gig to. This is just what he said. And his manager came over and said "Mr. Shearing
wants to talk to you." And he says "young man, anybody that can play
'Cherokee' for twenty-five minutes with Bud Powell, I've got to give a job to." I thought it was so sweet the way he did it. And he says "besides, my drummer is a little
hung up" you know he said later. So he gave me two nights. Yeah. MR: Was that with John Levy? ES: It was with John Levy. Yeah. Boy you've got some memory. This was prior to the quintet. MR: Well we spoke with him about George. ES: Yeah, and then the second guy that gave
me a job was Jack Teagarden, who is another style, right? And he heard me playing on 52nd Street I think
with George, and he came up to me and said "my regular drummer Morey Feld can't make
the first two nights of next week, would you like to work with me?" I said "oh Jack, I'd love to work with you." Well he said "you know" he says, "I heard
you skating these tempos, I love to play fast but I have to have a young drummer who can
play fast and you can play fast." So practicing fast tempos, which I used to
do a lot, really got me a lot of my work. Because the Bebop days were you either could
do this or you get run over. I don't know how to explain it. That was it. It was like, you know swords were prominent
at one time in history, and then pistols. Well in the Bebop days it was can you play,
seriously, for fifteen or twenty minutes at this pulse, and maintain it, and not run out
of gas. So as I explain to students even today. That's why you should practice rhythm a great
deal. Most people don't practice rhythm when they're
young. It sounds odd, doesn't it? If you're going to be a rhythm player, shouldn't
you practice rhythm? MR: Yeah I would think so. ES: No, no, no. You ask three or four hundred drummers in
an auditorium when I'm doing a big percussion convention. And I'll say how many people here sit and
practice rhythm regularly? MR: What do you mean by that? ES: Wait I'm doing my bit for you. Oh there's one-or there's two or three. This...I'm serious. MR: Well what are they practicing? ES: They're practicing speed and technique,
and practicing moves man and licks. MR: To just sit and play you're talking about. ES: I'm talking about actual time. So I get all my students, they have to go
out and buy one or two Oscar Peterson duo or trio records with no drums. The time of course they don't need it, the
time is sensational, and they have to practice with that as part of the lesson - to get a
groove. But a lot of people don't practice rhythm. But when I was young, for some reason, I don't
want to sound like oh wasn't I so smart, it seemed like common sense - gee if I'm going
to go to New York and try to sit in, you know, what if Bud Powell pulled "Cherokee" and it
happened. And I had a record of "Cherokee" by Don Byas
that was faster than anything in two beat [sings]. And the drummer played it a two beat style
- do you follow what I mean? MR: Yeah, sure. ES: I played it four beat. I went [scats], and I would do that three
or four times a day. So when Bud Powell played his "Cherokee" it
wasn't as fast as Don Byas' "Cherokee." I felt like I was on cruising speed, yeah. MR: I always used to pity you, the drummers
and the bass players in those situations with the jam sessions and all the saxophone players
would line up and you guys would have to... ES: Well you know what the joke is, don't
you, among rhythm players? I'll tell you what the standard joke is. And bass players get it just as much as drummers. You're playing, right? [scats] And like four tenor players have played
four or five choruses, a trombone and a trumpet and piano. And you're just about on your last tank of
gas and they turn around and say "drum solo!" Or they turn around and you hear, if I was
a bass player, they'd say "bass solo!" you know. MR: Thanks a lot. ES: Yeah. Thanks a lot yo mamma! You're so tired by now, you couldn't care
less about playing a drum solo, or a bass solo. But in those days, you know what you did do
was you learned how to pace yourself. So if they did ask you to play a drum solo,
quite frankly, you were able to. It was something you had to learn to do, you
know. And of course I was lucky I lived in New Jersey. For ten cents I hopped on a subway, walked
uptown twenty blocks, learned how to buy a Coke and nurse it for three or four hours
in a corner of a joint, because I wasn't of age, and stand tall, you know, look tall,
watch Max Roach or watch Art Blakey. Now don't you know a great deal of how I learned
how to do this stuff was from watching those guys. I mean I don't want to make it sound like
I invented it all in Jersey. I had role models. See that was the advantage of living close
to a big urban center like that. And here I had the greatest of the leading
drummers to watch. I saw Kenny Clarke, Art Blakey, Max Roach,
more than once, I mean quite a few times. So, and my original idol was Sidney Catlett,
who is maybe the greatest all-around jazz drummer I've ever heard because he could play
with anybody. And that's what I've endeavored to do all
my life. Sidney Catlett inspired me. Because I heard him play with Bird and Dizzy,
and he took me, because he was friendly to me and kind of like a mentor, and he took
me across the street and he sat in at Jimmy Ryan's across the street and he played some
traditional music man, just like he was born to just that. He still sounded like Sidney, but what he
had brought to Bird and Dizzy's music he also brought to the Jimmy Ryan Band. Isn't that a wonderful gift? MR: I guess that comes from just listening
and having huge open ears. ES: Huge ears and he had, I think the important
thing is that you must have the desire to want to make groups sound good, see? I mean a man came up to me today after a set
I played and said "I want to tell you how I think you really helped to make this group
sound good." Well that's the nicest compliment I think
you could get. That's more meaningful to me than if he said
"you know those two choruses you played on 'I Got Rhythm' were really hot." I don't mean to put that down, it's very nice,
but I'd much rather somebody say "I think you really helped to make the group sound
good." MR: Yeah, because not everybody's out to be
a great accompanist. ES: Well, you know Milt Hinton - have you
interviewed Milton yet? MR: Yes. ES: Yeah, well he may have said his stock
line, but I want to give him credit. Milt Hinton says we perform a service. A rhythmic service. And I mean he's right in a way. And that's what we're supposed to be good
at you know? MR: And you get your moments to shine along
the way. ES: Yeah, you get your moments to do your
stuff, but you know I've been at colleges where I'll listen to the college band play
and they want me to come up and critique it and I often say to the director, "now do you
want me to be really blunt, or do you want me to couch everything and kind of soften
it up?" He'll say, "No I want you to be really blunt." I said, "All right." And I will say things, not cruel things, I
would never want to be mean, but I'd say,"Rhythm I'd have to tell you, each and every one of
you looks like you're thinking about what kind of pizza you're going to order while
you're playing rhythm. Nobody's interested in this section in playing
rhythm." And they look at me like, wow, what's this
dude talking about? And I'll sit down at the drums and I'll say,
"Let's play the Blues." And I'll play the Blues with a rather nonchalant,
the way the drummer plays and the way the bass player plays. And I say, "Okay, now there's nothing much
happening." I'll say, "Let's do it again." I'll go [scats]. And right away they go - oh. See that's the difference. I am paying a lot of attention to really making
it happen. And quite frankly, that's the way it is with
some younger players. I don't mean all, not all, but some of them
have the idea that playing rhythm is what you do in between your solos. But being you're playing rhythm 99 percent
of the time, you might as well get interested in it. You have to have a pride in being a good rhythm
player, to be a good rhythm player. That kind of thing. MR: Take us up into where you moved from the
Grade Z... ES: Well they weren't really Grade Z, I'd
say about K or L. And well, then my first big break with something that really was making
a little bit of noise was a band called Charlie Ventura which was not a big band, it was one
of those sort of ninettes, or whatever you call it. He had a four horn front line and three rhythm
- I guess maybe we were seven. He at that time just after I joined him, within
a year or two, I don't know if you can remember a few years back, but you remember when Chick
Corea was really at the very peak of his popularity? I think you could at that time say he was
the number one small group, wouldn't you say he had a period like that? For two or three years I mean, every new Chick
record was a big deal. And well that's the way Charlie Ventura was. I don't know how else to describe it. But he was sort of the way Chick Corea has
been, at his zenith. And wherever we went, everybody was listening
to that band because he had these two singers, Jackie Cain and Roy Kral, and they were doing
the wordless vocals [scats]. Well he had found a happy marriage. He called it "Bop for the people." But he found a happy marriage of a good hot
Bebop band, with the two talented kids doing these lyric, non-word lyrics, you know, and
it made for an enormous popularity with him. He sold a lot of records. We had standing room only wherever we would
go, so since this was the first band that I was with that had a real name thing, it
did a lot for me. It kind of put me on the map. Yeah. And we did this, I just talked to a gentleman
who has a copy, we did the first live concert, sponsored by Gene Norman out here, that was
put on an LP. All the what we call "wirehead" guys, they
were all very aware of that album. It was 1949, and it wasn't of course the first
jazz concert put on records, Norman Granz had done that for years. But they were a bunch of 78's that you had
to keep changing. This was the first jazz concert live, ever
put on an LP. It's called "Charlie Ventura In Concert at
Pasadena." And I'm just telling it to you because maybe
some of your listeners who are viewers of this thing might be interested in that. Some people are very interested in that. It's a first of a kind you know? MR: And I hope you have a copy. ES: It's now on CD fortunately. Only half is. I hope they put out the other half because
my drum solo is on the other half. MR: But I'll bet you were playing great time. ES: I'll tell you it's pretty good for a nineteen
year old. It's pretty good. Yeah. I mean naturally there are some things that
could be improved, but I think you always feel like that. It's a good hot band if you ever hear the
record. It holds up pretty good today. We had very talented people in that band,
really good people. So from there on I moved into a lot of the
bigger bands. I played with Tommy Dorsey after Buddy Rich
left. And I did Benny Goodman's first European's
tour, which has never gotten much notice because the big tour to Russia by the State Department
is kind of what everybody focused on. But his first European tour of all, would
you believe that Benny Goodman had never played in Europe until he took myself and Dick Hyman
who is here and Roy Eldridge and Zoot Sims and Toots Thielmans we picked up and an English
bass player named Charlie Short, and that was Benny Goodman's first appearance in Europe
in 1950. I mean never - even at the height of his popularity. You know Louis had gone over there from like
the late 20s or early 30s, he was the king over there. And Benny Goodman, as big as he was here,
had never played in Europe. I couldn't figure out why. And he was hugely received over there. So that was a nice all-star group to work
with. I became quite friendly with Roy Eldridge,
we used to room together. MR: Did you like working with Benny? ES: I liked working with Benny a lot because
I loved, he was playing great at that time and I got along with Benny, who was hard to
get along with, everybody knows that. Most people know that and don't know what
instrument he played. But when I used to sit in with Lionel Hampton's
band, he said to me one night "I hear you're going with the old man." I said "yeah I'm going to go to Europe with
Benny." I was 21. And here's what he said to me. He said "now if he gets weird on you, get
weirder." I said "this is the key?" He said "this is the key." He said "didn't I get along great with him?" I said "yeah, you seemed to have a good relationship
with him." He said "well just ... if he gets a little
out, go a little outer." So when this happened and I was late at a
rehearsal, and I walked through the thing and he looked at me and he put the glasses
down with the famous ray, and he started in, I said "Jesus, Benny, are we just here to
jerk around or are we going to rehearse?" May God be my judge, that's what I said. I tried to go as far out as I could. And he said, here's what he said. He said "the kid's right. Let's play." And he never said a word. And I was over 35, 40 minutes late. And this was Paris, his biggest concert. So you know he was going to chew my thing
out real good, and I did a Hamp, and I went out on him, and I went out. And I'll tell you, every, I did it one other
time in a lesser way, and he never bothered me. I think he thought the kid is definitely crazy
but he's a nice little drummer, leave him alone. But he picked on everybody else, see. He cut out Roy Eldridge's solos in certain
places because he was getting too much applause. He cut out Zoot Sims' solos all through Scandinavia
because Zoot was more popular than he was. And may God be my judge, this is the truth
I'm telling you. You know he was a very strange man. But thank God for Hamp - Hamp straightened
me out, just go a little further baby and it worked like a charm. Isn't that a funny story? MR: That's great, yeah. ES: I never, he never told me a thing about
playing. I mean a lot of people said to me "you are
going to get crucified by him. You're a Bebop drummer." I said "no, no, no, no. I'm known as a Bebop drummer but I know how
to play for Benny Goodman." What do you do? You play simpler, you play straighter. I mean you got to be a rocket scientist? You don't play behind Benny Goodman the way
you'd play behind Bud Powell. I mean I don't understand when people think
that. Yeah, maybe of course I came in out of that
big Sid background and influence where you try to play for the people. You don't just say here it is baby. So with Benny, you play a little more down
the center. Look at Dick Hyman. Dick Hyman was playing with a lot of Beboppers
in New York, but when he worked with Benny Goodman, Benny Goodman was just crazy about
him. He said "oh man you can play that Teddy Wilson
style and you can-" You know he knew how to feed him and how to give him the style. Sure. That's part of that skill I was talking about. MR: Speaking of Bebop, you knew Parker, you
knew Charlie Parker? ES: I had the pleasure to know Charlie Parker,
yes. I thought he was a wonderful man aside from
his obvious problems. When he was not under you know you might say
the control of those problems, and I never saw him like that, he was a great guy to sit
and talk with because he was a mile wide. He had one of the most expansive appreciations
of not only music but of life. He would say things like this. He said to me once, we were sitting and my
girlfriend was friendly with his wife so you know how that works with guys? I mean even with Charlie Parker and a young
drummer, you tend to sit together quite a lot because the girls are talking while you're
on the bandstand and all that. And he said to me "Eddie, you've got to come
uptown and have lunch. They have a Hungarian string trio up at this
restaurant," he said, "they swing much better than any of us." I said, "Really?" He said, "Oh yes." He said, "You know so many of the ethnic musics"
this is, I mean he used to talk like a professor, really. He said, "So many of the ethnic musics have
got such a wonderful built-in swing," and he said, "you know we sort of get this narrow-minded
thing sometimes about maybe we in jazz" but he said, "there are a lot of people swinging
throughout the world." And I just, that made a big impression on
me. And later I studied Indian tabla drumming
and I found out how right he was. That stuff was cooking too, in its own way,
you know. He had that kind - and then he also told me
to go buy "The Rite of Spring" and "The Firebird" because he said "if you want to hear how meters
move around," he said "Stravinsky is the master." And don't you know I went right out and bought
those two albums. I mean that was Bird to me. He was a mile-
MR: You took it all in, huh? ES: He's sit in and play with anybody. He didn't have any of that ego crap that so
many guys have who play about four licks, I mean, you know Bird didn't have any of that. MR: Wow, that's interesting. ES: Yeah. So I only played with him not formally, you
know, but I think Max was sick one time and I played like a half a night with him until
Max could get there, or whatever it was. And another time his drummer got stuck and
couldn't play a show, a benefit at the Apollo. So I'd say I played with Bird may be six times
altogether, but not formally, not where he called me up and all of that you know. But it was a great thrill. And I have one record I'm on with him. He came and sat in with us when somebody was
bootlegging a recording at, did you ever hear of a place called Cafe Society downtown? Famous place, Barney Joseph's place. A famous place for a lot of stuff. And I worked there with the great guitar player
Mundell Lowe a lot, and Tony Scott, a fine clarinetist. And Bird used to come in and play with us
when he was off work, you know, to stay in shape. So we got a couple of those zippy tunes. And I'm playing four bar exchanges with Bird. Which as you can imagine is, not just for
a young drummer but for anybody, it's a great, really a great privilege you know, just to
be able to sit and listen to yourself. MR: Now your first experience moving from
the smaller groups into the big band, I mean, was that a big adjustment? ES: I would say that it was a fair adjustment. Nobody told me anything, but I felt like I
sounded too wimpy in a big band. I'm a strong drummer, but at that time I didn't
play quite the way I can play now. MR: I was going to say-
ES: Well I mean that's the way it is. When you're playing Bebop and small stuff,
strength isn't the biggest thing. I mean you have to have strong time, but it's
not quite the same as big band. A big band calls for a lot more muscle, you
know? And the speed and dexterity I talked about
was very important in a small band. So when I got in big bands, I heard a record
or two and a few tapes back of a couple big bands I was playing with. It sounds all right. I don't want to make it sound like it sounds
terrible. But it didn't have what I'd heard in the drumming
of Catlett or Davy Tough, who was an idol of mine in Woody's band, or Don Lamond, the
next drummer in Woody's band, Buddy Rich, who when he wanted to play for a band could
really play for a band, you know, aside from being the brilliant soloist that he was. They had more bottom. And I realized that it was also that they
played the bass drum just a little bit more than I was playing it in Bebop. Because in Bebop the bass drum was almost
considered to be needless. Although I found out later, everybody played
it just lightly like I did. But we didn't play with very much of a firm
contact. You almost just did this and then played all
the bumps and accents and the right cymbal carried the group. But in the big band it doesn't work so good
that way. So I started learning how to beef that up
just a little bit and play the time stronger and it didn't work right away. I'd say it took me another ten years of playing
big band where I started, I'd say I was about 35 to 40 when I think it started to sound
reasonable. MR: Yeah? ES: Well I'm not going to say it if it isn't
true. I mean I was a good small band drummer long
before that. I was pretty good at 19 when I made that record
I told you about, the LP. I was pretty good. But I think big band drumming takes more seasoning
and I think it's like a lot of things, I think it takes a while of doing to learn how to
do it. It's more how you do than what you do. Does that make sense? That pulse thing and the mixture of the bass
drum and the cymbal, how strong is strong that it really drives the band but it doesn't
overwhelm the band. I think that takes a little longer to get
than the other style. There's a million good small band drummers. There's not a million good big band drummers,
nor has there ever been. I hope I explained that all right. MR: Plus you're working trying to keep time
with the lead trumpet, things to set up- ES: Well, yeah, you've got a lot of things
to coordinate, yeah you've got to set up things and all of that. And it's like working with Basie. One of the biggest compliments I think I ever
had in my life was after I made, I made five albums I think I told you with Basie's band. After the first album he told me that I fit
the band like a glove. Now that's the greatest thing anyone could
have told me. MR: I guess so, to step in there. ES: Well I think the Basie band was known
for good time and Swing. That's why, you know it goes beyond "oh you
sound good, you play good." He said, no, "you fit the band like a glove. It's comfortable. It feels great." And I thought, geez, I think a lot of that
stuff I've been working on has finally come of age. It was about the time I recorded with Basie
that I felt that things were starting to come together. MR: What year was that? ES: It would include the 60s. I think I recorded with him over a period
of about four years in the 60s, and most of the time, this is going to sound very strange,
but thank God for Sonny Payne's marital problems, because when Sonny Payne his regular drummer
couldn't come into New York because his wife would throw him in jail, Basie would call
me up. And I used to say to Sonny, "geez, Sonny,
you're my man but you know these marital problems are really groovin' me." And he would say some proper epithet, you
know, epithet or whatever you call it. Because we were good friends you know. And he couldn't, because she was ready to
put him in the slammer for like ten years. So that's how come it worked out that I would
record with Basie. He'd take the charts on the road. They'd play them for three, you know, I don't
know he said a month or two, then they'd come into town, call me up, and I would sight read
them and we'd record them. So that's when your sight reading's got to
be up to par because you want to sound like you know them. And well I've been reading so much for so
many years I think I did develop that skill pretty good. And I think those records sound pretty good. MR: I love it. We've got one over there for you to sign as
a matter of fact. ES: Oh, do you? But anyway that was a lot of fun. Working with Basie was one of the great thrills
of my life, it really was, it really was. He got a lot done with very little motion. It was amazing. He was like a great general who can wave one
finger and things start to happen. You want to hear a fun story? MR: Sure do. ES: Got enough time for a fun story? It will only take a minute. We come to this studio to make the first album,
and we sit down and we had no dividers between any of the band. Basie did not like to record that way. Therefore he set the band up almost like real
life, you know? Almost the same as you would on a stage, almost. And we start running the first tune down and
play it. Kind of a medium tempo tune, nothing real
hot. And I'm playing and filling and doing the
stuff that I normally would do. And he says, I mean we stop, and the engineer
says over the thing "well, the producer wants to talk to you, Count." So Count says "well talk on the thing." He says "well do you want to talk over the
mics?" Count says "yeah, what is it? Come on, let's get going." So the producer leans over the mike he says
"we think the drums should probably be about half as loud as they are and we think that
that would be a lot better for this recording." And Basie, who very seldom does this, went
[screams] "rahhhhhh, and hit his fist on the piano." And all the band went like [screams] "rahhhhh"
I swear to God, including me. It scared the crap out of us. He's sitting there with this yachting cap,
[screams] and he roared like a lion. MR: Count Basie. ES: Yeah. And I found out later this was one of his
rare moments. And he leans over to the mike. Now after he does this, now he's Mister Cool
and he says, "Mr. Shaughnessy's here because I like the way he plays in a big band. Your job is to get it all down on record." And he looked at me and he says, "Play your
way." And that was the last time we got a word about,
in five record dates, to make the first album, never a word came from the booth. And you know something? They got it all down okay. I didn't modify anything. But man, that's what, it scared the crap out
of all of us. It was like, well, you know he made the point
right in the very - because we were going to make a couple of albums for this company. He made the point that this band is going
to play the way it plays. We're not going to play studio style, where
we kind of don't play, you know what I mean or we modify everything. He wants the fire. The main thing is he wants the fire, and you
need a certain amount of drumming intensity and energy for that, don't you? You can't lighten up and play, let the band
play and you play like Mr. Wimpy, it's going to sound awful, see? But boy he sure took care of it. But I'm telling you he scared the hell out
of everybody. And the main thing I remember was the roar,
like a lion [quiet roar] and everybody just froze, you know, just like this. Because you know he never did stuff like that. You know this was Mr. Quiet. It was a great experience. MR: I'll bet. Did you ever have an opportunity to play behind
Joe Williams? ES: I played behind Joe a great deal on the
Tonight Show. Not with the Basie band because he wasn't
with the Basie band at that time. But I played for Joe a lot. Because he was a very popular guest on the
Carson show. I think, if you ask Joe, I don't think it's
an exaggeration to say Joe could do, easily, four shows a year, if not more on the Carson
show, for quite a few years. So we worked together a lot. I've very fond of Joe. He's a great guy. Wonderful person. MR: What were some of your, I don't want to
belabor the Tonight Show thing. Is there a few-
ES: I think we're staying away from it pretty good so far. MR: Give me one thing about the Tonight Show. Good or bad. ES: I'll give you something good. I'd say that Doc Severinsen tried to maintain
a standard with that band, just as high from the first week he became the leader, as to
the very last week. And it never slacked off, ever, ever. And I think he deserves a lot of credit for
that because everything comes from the leader, you know what I mean? Shoddy playing comes from a leader that doesn't
care. Right on top of it playing that is really
there and popping and good energy and good spirit comes because you've got a leader like
that who insists on it. And even though I think you should always
play like that, I give Doc full credit for the fact that he made sure 16 people always
were like that. Now I don't mean to paint him like a pain. He wasn't a pain. He just wanted a high class standard of performance. And because he practices two to three hours
a day, and because he's always there, there's not one guy in the band that could say "yeah
but you don't really work at it." Because probably nobody in the band works
as hard as he does at his horn, see? So I give him a lot of credit for that, and
I think it's why people are constantly coming up, including today, and telling me how much
they miss the band on T.V. Because I think it really locked in an image
of a high class, great, powerhouse big band. And I'm glad we did because we were kind of
the only thing a lot of people could listen to other than the Rock 'n Roll kind of combos
that are on most of the other shows. MR: The only downside is that most of us just
got to hear it at the ins and outs. ES: Yeah, except did you ever hear that people
who had dishes, they heard every bit of music we played? When you had a dish through the Carson years,
if you had a satellite dish, you didn't get local feed. You didn't get any of the commercials. So I know people who have like yards and yards
of tape of us playing. Sometimes we'd play four and a half minutes
straight on through. We'd not only play the whole chart, we'd go
back to the D.S. sign you know and actually play the whole chart. And a lot of people have made tapes of the
band like that. But you're right, you didn't hear a lot. But we played quite a bit of music to keep
the audience jumping. It was a wonderful band to play with. Mostly, like I said, because Doc kept a high
standard, you know? And I always have gotten along good with Doc
because of that, because I think that's they way you're supposed to play. You know, our saying was you're either going
to play good or get the hell out and don't be here. MR: You've done some composing too. ES: A little bit. MR: Yeah? Does that come from piano-
ES: Yeah, as I said, I didn't really love the piano. I learned to like the piano more later after
I was a professional drummer, I started taking arranging lessons with a great guy in New
York named Hall Overton who did those Thelonious Monk transcriptions. Did you ever hear any of that stuff? MR: Yeah. ES: The famous Town Hall concert. He was trying to, he was very well known for
that. But he was a fine, fine composer and a great
teacher. And yeah, I studied some arranging and writing. It's something I never followed through on
a whole lot because I always was so busy as a player, which is a poor excuse, but that's
kind of what it was. I might get back to it a little bit more. It's a lot of fun. I remember the first time I wrote an arrangement
for just a small band with three or four horns, I didn't think it was very good at all and
yet, they said it didn't sound so bad. And it's a big kick to hear those notes, I'm
sure you know what I mean, hear the notes come alive. MR: And you've got to hear it so you can fix
it the next time. ES: Exactly. Yeah. That's right. MR: That's sometimes the hard part about writing. ES: Yeah. It's good for you. MR: Well, this has been fascinating. ES: Oh, thank you. I've enjoyed it. It's very nice to be part of your project. MR: All you drummers out there, remember that
thing about practicing rhythm. ES: Yeah, that's right. If you're going to be a good rhythm player,
it's a really a good idea to practice some rhythm, yeah, and get good. And you know what I tell my students? I'm going to teach you to be a rhythm expert
who plays the drums. And hopefully a good musician, you know, I
mean those two things. But that's really what it's about. And if you're out there propagating, especially
about jazz, I think you should talk about the important things, I really do. MR: All right. Well on behalf of the Hamilton Jazz Archive,
we'd like to thank Ed Shaughnessy for his time with us today. ES: My pleasure, thank you. MR: He's on his way to play another set. ES: Yeah, I've got time to have supper and
play the last 10:30 set. That's my last one. MR: Well thanks so much. ES: Thank you. That's for inviting me. I appreciate it. Thank you.
