My name is Monk Rowe and we are in New York
City filming for the Hamilton College Jazz Archive and I'm very pleased to have Don Alias,
percussionist extraordinaire, with me. DA: That's some nice words you've got. Thank you. MR: I'm glad I got it out. DA: Well I appreciate doing this and anything
to further the cause of my instrument and music, I'll do that anytime, sure. MR: You know, before we were rolling you were
saying how the role of the percussionist wasn't always really respected or wanted? DA: Yeah. True facts. I mean just from my experience, you know,
I've had a very, very wonderful career, and never thought about being a musician. I went to school for something else you know. But I remember just going in places to sit
in, you know you'd sit in you know. I went away to school, and I was playing in
New York but when I went away to school that was taboo for moms. Moms did not want to know anything about being
a musician. And so I would go and sit in and go in some
of these clubs, and they'd see me carrying that conga drum, and I'd venture to say that
most of the drummers, they kind of like looked down upon it. And one of the reasons why I think is because
a lot of conga drummers, especially back in that time, the music was jazz, four-four swing. But since the music got really syncopated
now, you know, there's plenty of room for conga drummers. But back then you know the drummer would always
be kind of like locked in with a percussionist because he'd be playing the same thing over
and over, and they didn't like that too well. MR: When you say back then, what are the years
you're talking about? DA: I'm talking about like sixties. Like the sixties. Let me even pinpoint it more for you. I started my career seriously around '67,
'68, so I guess that would be like a post Bebop era. But people were still swinging. And there was some conga drum usage in the
Rhythm & Blues area, you know, Curtis Mayfield, you know if you listen to the soundtrack of
"Superfly," and you know you'll hear some conga drums and stuff in there. And there were some people that would use
conga drums. And the funny thing about it is that usually
you'd see them with one or two conga drums, instead of bongos. Not with paraphernalia that you see now. Guys will come with chimes and all kinds of
stuff you know, banging on stuff. But back when the music was more swinging,
I'm talking about jazz, improvisatory music was more four-four, it was a challenge to
play that kind of music. MR: What brought you to the conga drum? DA: You know I don't know. Again, I never really thought about me being
a professional musician. You know I went to school and studied medicine. You know my mom wanted me to be a doctor. And I went to a certain point and got my degree
in biochemistry, but I got bit. I got bit seriously. I really - literally how it happened is that
I had this wonderful job working in a research laboratory, cancer, up in Rhode Island, in
hematology, it was a great laboratory. And I was also playing at night in Boston. So this trip back and forth, living in Providence
and back to Boston, back and forth, and one day I walked into that laboratory and I sat
down and I was dead tired, and I sat down and said what is the thing that makes you
the happiest? Come on now. What is it that really makes you happy for
a length of time? And I chose to play music. And how I got to it, the earliest I could
remember was I had a little small drum and I have no idea where I got it from, I can't
remember, with a Chinese design on it. So I used to call it a Chinese drum. A Chinese design. And I used to start banging on that. MR: Was your household musical at all? DA: Yeah, matter of fact my uncle played organ
and keyboard, he was a swinging organ player. He lived in Washington and he used to play
some jobs over there. My mom played a little piano. My grandmother played a little violin. Nothing serious. And they actually did make an attempt to send
me and my brother to music lessons, piano. But at that period of time I wanted to be
out playing basketball and stuff. I didn't want to be associated, you know. But every once in a while I would sneak in
there, because we didn't have a piano, sneak in there and play some stuff. And the funny thing, people ask me about the
background and stuff, my parents were born in the Caribbean. That's where my origins are from, like the
specific island of St. Martin. And we grew up in a household that was like
loaded with Calypso music. Not Reggae, not any other kind, it was Calypso
music. And the only example I can think of is Harry
Belafonte, you know with "Matilda" and all that kind of stuff. But we had the real hard core Calypso, the
stuff that you couldn't get, that my parents brought along. And we liked to dance and so forth and so
on. And this Calypso music of course it had that
beat, you know it had that beat to it, and I guess I got, somehow or another, snuck through
the cracks to get to that feeling. But in my household, I grew up in a Calypso
kind of environment. MR: What did your parents do for a living? DA: Mom was a supervisor at Harlem Hospital,
which was like right down the street. Grandmom was a head caterer in the kitchen. And the one thing I can always remember about
that is around Thanksgiving and Christmas we'd get this phone call and she'd be working
and she'd say "come now" and we'd run over there and she'd have like - because they were
going to throw it away anyway, all this surplus food - so she just dumped all of this stuff
on us and I can always remember Thanksgiving and Christmas we had a lot of food because
of her. And my dad, he separated and divorced like
early on when we were young, my dad also worked, as a matter of fact also worked as a chef
in a place called Horn and Hardart, I don't know if you know that chain - it was a chain
of cafeterias. MR: What was it called? DA: Horn and Hardart. And it's like really, I don't think they're
in business anymore. And he worked as a chef there. He was not musically inclined. He liked it but -
MR: Well I'm wondering what the phone call to your mother was like when you decided to
switch careers. DA: Hell. That's the only thing, for want of a better
word. Take into consideration the time. It was the sixties, the fifties and sixties. I'm a black American growing up in a certain
kind of environment and the revolution wasn't really going on when I was going to school,
I'm talking about '58, '59. It wasn't really prevalent then. There were no revolutionary activities around
that time. Parents wanted their kids - I'm talking about
Afro-American parents - wanted their kids to be doctors, lawyers, something with some
kind of clout to it, intellectually, you know, clout to it. Stuff like that. And needless to say when I told her that I
had quit my laboratory job she didn't like that. As a matter of fact it was only recently,
when I say recently I'm talking about maybe seven years maybe, that she - I think she
liked more the people I was playing with than the playing. I said "Mom I'm playing with Miles Davis." "Oh Miles Davis." "Lou Rawls." "Oh Lou Rawls, oh." She would love all of that. But me being a musician, no she didn't want
that. She was really upset about that. MR: Gosh well she can at least brag to her
neighbors perhaps. DA: She did that. She did do that. Because I'd be there on a number of occasions
when she'd turn around - "oh he played with -" moms, you know. But she would never of course give me the
credit. That's all right, I accept it. MR: When you were in Boston you were playing
with guys like Chick Corea. DA: Yes. MR: And Alan Dawson. Did you have a defined goal at that time? Like I want to be - I'm not saying this very
well, but like - a star in music. Was that a goal or was it just kind of-
DA: No. Never. Never. You know I'm focused in a certain way in terms
of let me do the best that I can on this thing. Not what am I going to get from it, endorsements
or whatever. Just let me do the best I can and then whatever
comes will come. I never - and I don't know if that was a help
or a hindrance - I never really really was ambitious about a career you know. It was just play your ass off and do the best
you can. And somehow or another that worked. The ambition came with the playing. I mean all of a sudden you find yourself playing
with Miles Davis, I'm not going to think about - man I'm playing with him I may get a record
deal out of this. You know what I mean? Let me just do the best I can. MR: Okay. Let's talk about him for a moment. I know you played on "Bitch's Brew." Was that the first session you did with him? DA: Yes. MR: That must have been an experience. DA: I'm telling you, you know we could go
on, we could be sitting here for three or four hours to tell you about the feelings
about that. I got this call from Tony Williams and we
were playing a circuit, a George Wein, you know, who you are familiar with, the concerts. We were playing this circuit where on the
bill would be Miles Davis and Nina Simone, and along with some other people like Blood,
Sweat & Tears or some other people. And Miles would go on and then we would come. And on more than one occasion I would be playing,
I played drums on that job with Nina Simone and also some percussion. I'd be playing and I'd turn around and he'd
be standing there looking, just kind of looking around. Oh my goodness. Then I had heard later on that Nina Simone
was backstage saying things like "he'd better not steal my drummer, he'd better not steal
my drummer." Anyway Tony Williams gave me the call to do
this record date. And I walked into the studio - what a line
up. I mean how can you go wrong? Whatever it is that he's doing, you can't
go wrong with that. He had some of the best musicians in the world
there. And the impact of it actually didn't really
hit me and some of the other guys until the album itself came out and we really looked
at the cover. That's such a dynamite cover. It is such a dynamite cover. I mean just the whole package you know, especially
for that time, you know, there's some African stuff and there's some psychedelic stuff and
then all kinds of stuff. And then that's when it kind of like, especially
me, it's like man this is like - the optimum word here is innovation. This stuff is going to change the face of
music, especially for Miles. Because again, everybody wanted to, a number
of people I heard say that "My Funny Valentine," "Round About Midnight," wanted him to stick
to that, nothing wrong with that. But as we all know Miles was an innovator. But he will change the course of his playing
and music, every, like I don't know, two or three years. MR: Yeah. It's interesting, it's like just when the
audience, at least some of them, would catch up with them, he'd be on to something else. DA: On to something else. A lot of people didn't like "Bitch's Brew." The real kind of like young crowd - that turned
the corner crowd - the Jimi Hendrix people, you know, really liked that album. Because it was, again for want of a better
word, psychedelic. The beats were different and the music was
soulful and the young folks really liked that. Because that period of time, Jimi Hendrix
and this huge musical revolution, with Donovan and all of these people, who by the way I
would listen to too. I mean I was a James Brown fan you know and
stuff like that. But when I got to listen to The Beatles and
Donovan, I really got into that kind of music. MR: At that session, was there anything on
paper musically or was it pretty much- DA: For us? MR: Yeah. DA: No. No. For us, no. And now I'm thinking about for the instrumentalists,
Miles may have had some sketches, a little bit of this and that and this and that and
this and that. But then again, the secret is his ability
to hire musicians to do what he wants. That, I mean, that's what he had down to a
tee, to hire the right guys. He always did it. I mean Herbie, you know, face it. He would always get the musicians that would
do what he wanted to have done. So they may have had some sketches, like little
things written out, but nothing formal, never anything formal. And the fact that I played drums on the record,
I played drums on "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down" which is kind of like an inside, that's a
very inside secret that a lot of people don't know about. MR: Yeah it doesn't list that specifically. DA: No. No it doesn't list it specifically. And it's really funny how it happened. You want to hear? MR: Yeah. DA: Well he had this tune, and "Miles Runs
the Voodoo Down," and I was over there playing percussion and it was Lenny White and DeJohnette
playing drums. The number one mistake I think is both of
them had the Tony Williams-sounding drum set. What I mean by that, eighteen inch bass drum,
you know tight sound, that Tony Williams sound. And both of them had drums tuned like that,
and sounded like that. So you ain't going to get no contrast you
know - pardon my English - you're not going to get contrast between the two drummers. They're going to sound alike. So Miles counts the tune off. It didn't happen. You've got to remember that the whole session
up until that point was like one take. I don't even remember us doing two takes. Most of it was like one take. So things were rustling - "I can't - stop
playing," you know, in his voice. So he counts, he starts it off again. And Monk, he cut it off. So now everybody's getting just really nervous. Oh my goodness. With him, you know, if it ain't happening
he knows right away, cut it off and he won't do it. You know what I mean? He'll just, you know. So he was getting ready to count it off again
and I couldn't sit there any longer, because this specific piece of music I had a drum
beat for this music that I had - I got it from a friend of mine in New Orleans. I actually got it from a friend of mine, Gene
Perla, who got it from somebody in New Orleans, and it was one of those beats that was like
right in, conducive for this kind of music. And I'm sitting there, you know, like this,
like oh my God, I know this could work. But I'm - to step in and interrupt Miles Davis,
it was kind of like a monumental thing to do you know. Believe me I was scared. And I'm just like "Miles, Miles, I've got
this beat, I've got this beat man, I think it will be great." And he just kind of like looked over, and
I was thinking that maybe he would utter some expletive to set me up. He looked over and he went "over there." So I sat down and we started playing and he
shook his head and he went "show Jack." He wanted me to show Jack this rhythm. Now it's one of these rhythms that does not
require any chops, does not require a whole bunch of paradiddles and ratamaques and all
like that, it's something that you just work out. MR: How does it go? DA: Well I'll hum it to you and then, go listen
to "Bitch's Brew." It's [scats]. Please make sure that you do that because
I want you to see the tune. And that started the record off, I mean that
tune off, that particular tune. And I was trying to show Jack, again it was
one of those rhythms that didn't require chops it just required some stuff, and it's not
that he - matter of fact years later he had played it for me, he played the rhythm for
me, and it's not that he couldn't have gotten it at that time but it was just it would have
taken some time and Miles just went "stay there." So I got a chance to play drums, and that's
like an inside thing. It's a little secret. MR: Great story. Was Jack pissed? DA: Not at all. MR: That's good. DA: Yeah. They'll tell you the story themselves. And let me just say this about that session. You've got all of these like, this sea of
like monumental musicians, great musicians, there wasn't any time for egos. We do not go into a recording session with
Miles Davis with an ego. You don't do that. He's the ego. You know what I mean? He's the guy. So there wasn't any room for that kind of
stuff. MR: Well over the years you've gotten calls
from just a lengthy, lengthy list of people. As you look back on it, who stands out in
your mind as maybe a really good learning experience? DA: Ah, that's really a good one. You said a learning experience, that's a really
great question to ask someone. Because that's what it's about. Elvin Jones. When I got the call to play with him we did
a record, it's called "Merry Go Round," Chick Corea was on it. You know that record? That's a great record. And I got the call. And then I got a call to join his band. Now take into consideration this is Elvin
Jones. I mean any musician who is watching this interview,
I'm going to try to convey the feeling that I got playing with Elvin Jones. I mean he is an idol. Here is a guy that I would go and see with
Trane. Here's a guy that changed the course of music. And when I say changed the course I mean there
is like most of the drummers that are hitting it today, you'll hear a little bit of Elvin
and Tony and guys. Here's a guy that would play a twenty minute
chorus with John Coltrane, just him and Trane together. And I mean he was an idol. He was like Mr. Jones. So he asked me to play with him. So conga drums and Elvin, in that time. Now if you're the type of musician that's
always thinking you're going to be coming down on one and so rigid that you're going
to come down on one and be so rigid, uh uh. No way. So I'm thinking how I can play with Elvin
Jones and still capture that - because I grew up, my roots were Afro-Cuban. So I'm thinking on how to drop this Afro-Cuban
stuff, that cymbal, that ride cymbal with Elvin, and it worked out, yeah, it worked
out. Now as you said the learning experience, there's
a couple of stories I can tell you. We're playing Slugs. You ever hear of this club Slugs? MR: Yeah, I've never been there, but-
DA: Well Slugs was your quintessential jazz club down on the East side, lower Third Street,
somewhere around there. People laying out. You know. But it was a jazz club. Unfortunately it became infamous because Lee
Morgan had gotten shot there. Anyway we're playing there and with really
a great band of some young great musicians. Dave Liebman was in the band, and Steve Grossman
was in the band, and Gene Perla and myself. They didn't have a keyboard player. MR: No keyboard or guitar, right? DA: No. No keyboard or guitar. I'll tell you a side story after that about
the keyboard. So we're playing and believe me, this band
was beginning to elevate off the ground. It was that strong. Well you know at the end of the gig we couldn't
go to sleep because it was so up, you know what I mean, from the music, playing with
Elvin, Elvin was playing his behind off, you know. I mean we'd go places, like we'd play the
Village Vanguard and every drummer in the world would be sitting there you know, stuff
like that. So during the course of the night Elvin broke
something on his drums. So he went "hey Don," you know, "come over
here and play some drums, man, while I fix this" - you see you're starting to laugh already
- "while I fix this drum here." So in like three to four seconds my life flashed
before me. I'm going to sit in playing Elvin Jones' drum
set and playing - so things are starting, I'm thinking about oh Jeez, he trusted me
enough to want me to do it, you know, he must have heard that I had started to play drums,
you know, up in the lofts in the jam sessions. You know he must have - yeah he trusted me. And then finally, the heck with it man, I'm
going to - I can do this. I can do it. The challenge you know what I'm saying? And the guys that were in the band are guys
that I'm living with too, in New York, so we're always jamming, we're very familiar
with each other you know. In other words I can hold a medium swing four-four,
I can do that. You know what I'm saying? Elvin comes up and calls out "Yesterdays"
in the slowest - I have to laugh at this - the slowest tempo that you can think of. I mean [hums] and you know him, he's a brush
master. Me and brushes were like oil and water. So we're starting off, I pick up these brushes
and you could hear them getting caught in the side of the drums, you know, the noise,
and it was quiet and you can hear things rattling around. And it was terrible. So at the end of it, and I won't use the word
because we're on camera, but he said "Don you know something, you are a non-brush-playing
- finish the sentence. And he was absolutely right. Absolutely right. And you are a non-brush-playing - and he's
right. Which means get it together. So I mean to get the opportunity to even do
that, and subsequently fail, you know, at doing it, and then for him to go hey - and
all of those things that he's saying is like I'm sitting down, behind Elvin Jones playing
a ballad with brushes. I got it together though. MR: It's interesting he would pick that song
and that tempo. DA: Yeah. MR: I wonder if he thought he was doing you
a favor, or if he thought this is something you need to do. DA: He could have been thinking about anything. He could have been thinking about - because
I thought about it too, why did he call that tune. He could have been thinking about if this
kid is going to play, let me challenge him, let's see where he's really at because this
separates the men from the boys if you can play brushes on a ballad. Yeah, you know, let's see where he's at and
stuff like that. And I kind of felt that that may have been
the basis for why he called it, just to find out if I can do it. MR: Well I think that's a skill that is somewhat
overlooked often, being able to play slow- DA: Of course, yeah. MR: And the brushes. DA: Play slow, I mean he counted that thing
off. And he got me. And I'm glad he got me. MR: You were going to tell me about the keyboard
situation. DA: Oh yeah. The band was on fire. If I can tell you, that band, I'm telling
you, it was on fire. All of the young musicians would come down
and see the band. Because he had a conga drummer. He had a conga drummer. That was one of the reason why it was like
- and it wasn't like a how do you say, a conga drummer like an African conga drummer where
the music is flavored in an African way, you know like Kulu se Mama or something like that. It wasn't that kind of conga drumming. It was conga drumming to be able to play with
four-four. To be able to sit down and play with Elvin. I mean he had some things, you know, "Recordame"
he would do that was with a Latin flavor that was easy for us to get into. But to play with the four-four. And it was a challenge all the way. I think about it, it's like I'm so lucky. Because he also proved, he proved it to me
too. I mean we're playing someplace in Milwaukee,
I remember it being cold outside, and we're playing, it was a concert, and Elvin took
this drum solo. Now because I'm a little bit shy I don't go
over to guys and say oh man - I just don't do that, you know what I mean? But I had to like really give it up to him. Because I never in my life have ever seen
anybody play drums like that. I mean I must have sounded like, you know,
like a real na�ve - Elvin, I never saw anybody play drums like that," and it was just like
I was dumbfounded, the way he played. You know, sweat, all along the snare drum
and everything. And he turned around and he said "that's all
I want to do." Those are the exact words. MR: Yeah, I saw him once. He sweat like Patrick Ewing sweats, oh man
I'll tell you. DA: That's exactly right. MR: You know sometimes I feel sorry, physically
I think of Gene Perla in that situation, you know that's physically a job. DA: Oh yeah. MR: To hold up the bass end of things. DA: Well Gene, Gene of course was an excellent
musician. Did you meet Gene? Do you know him? MR: I have not met him yet. DA: He is also an academic, you know he teaches
someplace. And his goal, he had a goal because he was
a musician with Berklee, his goal was to play with Elvin Jones. MR: There you go. DA: Yeah. And believe me that's not an easy task if
you are a bass - again if you are a musician or a bass player who thinks that you're going
to come down on one. When he starts rolling around on those drums,
and comes down, you have to really know what Elvin is playing and feel what he's playing. MR: Did it help to watch him when you were
playing? DA: Oh yeah. MR: So there was a visual part too. DA: Definitely. Nobody - I didn't want anybody getting in
the way of me being able to see him. Definitely. And then of course there would be periods
of time when I just closed my eyes and floated into the music. MR: Were there times, not just with him but
with other people, where the percussionist would decide - being you - to not play, to
just wait? DA: Sure. Sure. Definitely. I'm trying to think of some instances, and
again I go back to Miles and people like that, and to reiterate a phrase by Ahmad Jamal or
where it came from I'm not sure but the phrase is "what you don't play is what's happening,
the stuff that you don't play." And I had to think about that. I had to think about, you know, because that
sound is a very prevalent sound. Conga drums. It's there, you know what I mean? I was doing an interview in Japan with a young
drummer by the name of Gene Lake. Did you hear that name? Oliver Lake's son. And they were asking us, one question they
asked us was what do you do, what do you look for when you go on the bandstand? What is it that you focus in on? And he says "well, you know, I listen to everybody
and the music," which was a very intelligent answer. But I said "I want to get with the drummer
and the bass player. That's where it is for me. Once we're cool, you know, then it's up to
the rest of the guys. But let me get with that drummer and bass
player and see what we're going to do. And then if we can lock in, the rest of the
stuff is easy." MR: Eventually you put your own ensembles
together as a cooperative venture. What kind of step is that to take as far as
trying to lead a group? DA: Well I remember Tony Williams, I can always
- I had such great teachers, and they would say like a couple of sentences and they would
show you the road you know. Tony had this group called Ego that was out. And he was really like depressed and everything. And he just said "when you get your own band
you never make any money." And there's a lot of people out there that
knows what that means. First of all the Stone Alliance thing with
Gene Perla, we were all, I'm telling you we were all just like close, crazy, wild friends. Friends. And we were up at my mother's house up near
Mount Vernon and one of the reasons was to see if we could do something. And we sat down and we said let's start a
band together. Now the great thing about this was that Gene,
he is a quote a businessman unquote. And when I say that, I say that in reference
to myself, I am not that way. I can not do that stuff. I can not sit down in front of a record company
guy and try to push myself. I'm just not the kind of guy. But he is, you know, so he was the kind of
guy that would get gigs and so forth and so on. I was designated the musical director, which
was fine with me because I wanted that job. I wanted to be that in the band, although
I did share with the guys. And Steve Grossman. So it was a trio. And what was the innovative thing about this
trio, it was that it was a Rock 'n Roll-Jazz trio. That's a heck of a term. Sometimes the music got really loud and boisterous,
but always swung, always had that element of improvisatory, pure jazz music. We'd do some four-four, but a lot of it was
Funk tunes, Rhythm & Blues, and the music was designed to bring out the percussion. And the way I played drums, from playing conga
drums, is I use a lot of tom toms. So the music was designed to do all of that
stuff. And we had relatively nice success. We did some albums over in South America and
the last album we did with Kenny Kirkland, the late, great Kenny Kirkland, and some we
did down in Rio, and we had some moderate success with that. But my friend Gene decided that he wanted
to take some time off and raise a family and do things like that, so we had to disband
then. Now I get people coming up to me saying "when
are you going to start your own band, man?" And I look at them and I say "okay, okay"
you know. My dream, and it did happen, it actually did
happen, is for all the powers to be that are out there, like record company guys and that,
I want them to knock on my door. I want them to ask me. Now that may sound like a monumental task
to get people to ask you to make a record, but doggone it I want that. My dream came true a year and a half ago,
where the Art Council of England called up, oh this was maybe two years ago, called up
and said "we want to celebrate your many years of playing percussion. We want you to do some tours in England, about
ten days. What kind of band would you like to have?" They should have never asked me that. I said I'm going for the jugular vein. What? I'm going for it. MR: Well they asked. DA: So I got - I asked for Mike Brecker, Randy
Brecker, and three of the greatest percussionists, a wild trio, in the world, because they have
knowledge of the folklorico stuff and the contemporary stuff - Giovanni Himbargo, Steve
Barrios and Alex Acuna. I wanted Danillo Perez on piano but for some
reason he couldn't make it so Gil Goldstein showed up. Carlos Benevent, who is the bass player for
Paco DeLucia, the flamenco guitar player, and Mitch Stein on guitar, who was a friend
of mine who I'd met playing with Tania Maria, and I really liked him so much and his playing
so much I said well if I do anything big, man, you're coming with me. That's what happened. So I asked for all these guys. Six months later the guy called me up and
said "you're on." So now I've got a band with the Brecker brothers,
four of the greatest percussionists in the world, and this guy and this guy and all the
different things. But you know something I wasn't worried one
bit. I wasn't worried one bit. There were some bumps and unfortunately Gene
Perla and myself, we had a little run in, it turned out that Carles Benevent, because
of his flamenco experience and because he was so adept at playing tempos and stuff like
that, he was great for the band, and I wasn't afraid of anything because the music had been
written for this set up. I mean old stuff, written like ten, fifteen
years ago, finally was coming to fruition. We rehearsed two days, and I got to tell you
that it was great. It was great. It was - you can hear it - because what happened,
there were people like coming out of the woodwork now when they heard about this project, wanting
to tape it, wanting to do a video, and I said no, man, I don't want these guys coming with
cameras in my musicians' faces. And this rough thing. I don't want that. And some guy "okay well sit over there, oh
no we have to do this again." No. This is us. Let's do this, and so forth. And so there wasn't all of that. But they did burn some CD's live on the underground. And you can hear, like my rapport, I'm so
excited. I was screaming and jumping up and down, I
was so excited, I couldn't come down and I couldn't even talk. I have to remember that I'm supposed to also
be an emcee for this thing. And I was saying stuff like "I'm in heaven,
I've died, I'm going to heaven." I just couldn't help it. And those guys were great, they loved the
tour, the wanted to do it again sometime soon. But look at that personnel. Now where am I going to get -
MR: I know. Amazing. DA: Let me just say this, in terms of the
money, all I can say is that that's really, when you think about who's in that band, and
you think about the money, that's part of it. And of course they deserve it. So that dream came true. They asked me. And I gave it to them. I got great reviews, everybody was happy,
and I could tell they were. So I gave it to them. Ask me, look, just ask me man. Just come and say listen, and the confidence
I feel, I'm going to give it to you, it's really huge with me. So if some record company guy comes up and
goes "what do you got?" I'm going to give it to him. Now I did approach some people and I don't
- the look and the feeling I get is that this thing was so huge that they didn't know what
to do. There were certain things in Mike Brecker's
contract that he was only allowed to play some solos or one solo, some stuff like that. I got things like oh the solos are too long,
or you won't get airplay. I'm going "man get outta here." So I'm in the process now of getting it to
JVC and Sony. MR: It seems to be the nature of the business
these days that guys do so many different things that it's hard to have a band with
the people that you really like, enough to make a payroll. DA: Very difficult. MR: You know to make it worth it for people
to stay with one thing. DA: I mean you can see the course of the way
the music is going. You turn on what supposedly is a jazz station
and they're not really playing contemporary improvisatory jazz. Improvisatory is a big word for me, because
that's music that's coming off of the top of your head. And the way the music is going is disappointing
in some ways to me, to hear. To hear your audience, your listening audience
be so unsophisticated musically that they will ask for certain things and it hurts that
people don't know who Coltrane is. MR: Yeah. That it seems that their definition of jazz
is going to end up being like the smooth jazz that - when I woke up this morning the alarm
came on, it was smooth jazz. DA: 101.9? MR: Yeah. And I don't know. I don't like people to think of that music
as what we think of as jazz. DA: I don't either. That's why I was so happy with the London
thing is because you know we had like 15 conga drums, all this stuff, and you would think,
oh my God, cacophony, you know Sun Ra. Everybody's going to be playing at the same
time - not that Sun Ra is bad, but I'm just saying, you know, it's going to be a mish
mosh. But it wasn't like that. MR: Are you able to define swing? DA: No. No. MR: Because earlier you had said, in your
trio, that you would do swing but it would be Rock 'n Roll, but it always had something. What was that something? DA: Feeling. It's really funny you know. And I run across this every once in a while
when I'm in an environment where there's some heavy, heavy swingers, four-four swing type
players, and some heavy syncopated Rhythm & Blues or Rock players. And how I feel on both of these environments
you know. And I feel myself on the Swing going a certain
way, and I feel myself going a certain way with that stuff. And feeling that it's all the same. It really is all the same. And I would like to see the guy define swing. I would like to listen in on that. You know technically, maybe somebody could
possibly do it and go back to where it came from, New Orleans and all of that stuff. But when I'm sitting in a place man and they're
swinging, that's the most wonderful feeling in the world. You're a saxophone player. MR: Wow. Over the years, the physical work that you
do, has it ever had an impact on your body? DA: On my health? MR: Or does it keep you healthy? DA: Not really. Coming up in this period of time there are
few things, like I've got some herniated discs that talk to me every once in a while and
say don't pick up that drum or you're going to feel this tomorrow. And again for me it's like give me the talent. If I'm not feeling good, you know I wake up
and something is sore or something, come on with it. It's like a fight to me. It's like not with violence or anything but
it's like show it to me and let me do this you know, and then I'm going to get better. It's like Elvin never practices. I will use him as an example. He never practices. There are some guys who practice all the time
who are excellent. I mean I don't want to take off more than
two or three weeks. Because I've got a physical instrument. It's like staying in conditioning. It is a physical instrument. So you take off two or three weeks, it's just
like any instrument, you're going to feel it. Put that horn in your mouth and something
goes - yeah. MR: I brought a couple of short excerpts of
some of the things you've played on. And maybe you can place them. [audio interlude]
DA: That's Jaco. That's Jaco Pastorius. MR: This must have been some organization
of musicians. DA: Yeah, if I can go back to one of the questions
that you asked me about the learning experience. MR: Please. DA: I ran down the business with Miles, but
that guy there, that guy, I'm still in denial about thinking about him dead, because we
were really close you know. Out of all of that crowd I was the first one
to meet him. And Rick [Montalbano] will tell you all about
this, I was doing a gig with Lou Rawls down in Florida and walked into, it was a television
show, and we walked into the rehearsal place and all I heard was the bass. Not because it was loud, it's because I never
heard nobody play like that. So I went over to him man and I says hey man,
my name and so forth. And I guess he had heard, you know, "Bitch's
Brew" and so forth. And we became very close. And I'm in denial. I don't want to acknowledge that he's dead. Because we're looking at an innovator. We're looking at a force that also changed
the course of - I mean the guy changed the course of bass players all over the world. Let's face it. And when a person can do that I'm with them. Change the course of bass playing, and his
musicality, some of the music that he wrote was just incredible. The styles and stuff like that. And my learning experience from him was being
in the company of a great musician. Being in that company. Of course Miles, you know all of them are
great, but a great, young - let me put it that way - a young musician who was changing
the course of music while it was happening. His first album was a killer you know, "Changes"
was a monster. And all the subsequent stuff before he started
to become mentally disturbed. MR: Did he deny like help for that? DA: Yeah, on a number of occasions he did. I suppose that, I mean I suppose anybody who
was close to him had that opportunity to help him. Peter Erskine and all those guys that were
really close to him - some of them went down to Florida to try to help him. But we played the Playboy Jazz Festival and
it was Jaco's kind of like return to L.A. because he had been in Weather Report and
that was like an L.A. kind of thing. So he had left Weather Report and now he's
coming back to L.A. and the Playboy Jazz Festival. Prime time you know. Hugh Hefner, the whole, everybody was like
wanting to know what he had gotten together. And the band was - we had done some touring
and the band was killing. But Jaco unfortunately had been up for four
days. And he wasn't right. He was just causing all kinds of riots backstage,
just causing all kinds of things backstage, insulting people where he shouldn't have insulted,
and we came on stage, he took his bass and threw it up in the air, turned around and
said "take a conga drum solo." Jaco - this is not the place to do that, you
know. Inviting all kinds of musicians that were
not in the band to come up and play. In other words he was gone. No question about it. And to see that go down was really painful,
it was really a painful thing. MR: More like some of the Rock 'n Roll people
that you read about who self destruct. DA: Yeah. He did that. It was almost like he was destined to go out
early. You know he came, he was that spark that burned
real bright and then disappeared. Now I'm like every time I meet anybody that's
associated with any kind of Grammy thing I always drop that on them. I say when are you guys going to acknowledge
Jaco Pastorius? You know we had a monumental concert for him
at the Long Star, you know Paul McCartney showed up and Sting showed up and those guys
will tell you about Jaco. I mean why don't you have like a segment. You know it's not going to kill you to give
him ten minutes or so to say here is a bass player before everybody forgets, here is a
bass player that changed the course of music. Give it to him, man, come on. MR: What was it about his sound? I mean aside from all the beautiful technical,
amazing technical stuff he did it was like one note, he had this particular sound. Was there equipment behind that? Was there something about his bass or was
it just him? DA: You say was it just him? Was it his bass? I've got to say it's a combination of all
of those. I remember in Osaka in Japan and Jaco threw
his bass into the Osaka River. Them Japanese guys jumped in and got it. And Jaco thought that that was - he thought
that that was a great act. He was like "oh man this cat jumped in the
river and got my bass." And he thought that that was just like a spiritual
thing. And he had that acoustic amp that he always
used you know, and I suppose that had a great deal to do with the sound. That's the only piece of equipment that I
ever saw him play was that Acoustic thing. And a combination of him and that made his
sound. Incredible. I mean I didn't realize the impact that he
would have on the music. Because we were just like kids playing in
a pen or something you know. We were just like kids running around playing
basketball and doing things. But then he'd sit down and put down a lead
on the bass with conga drums. Brilliant, brilliant idea. MR: Well thanks for sharing that. Really, I know you were pretty close to him. DA: Yeah. It was hard. Him and Kenny Kirkland. I gave Kenny his first gig coming out of school,
we played with Miroslav together. Another sweet person and a great musician. Those two guys really got inside me. MR: You had a short stint with Weather Report
too, didn't you? DA: I remember playing live with Weather Report. That's another story if you don't mind. The very, very, very first album, the very
first album, before "Heavy Weather," I mean the very first one with Miroslav and Al Mouzon
were playing, I got called to come down and do a rehearsal with them. This was before that record, and that they
were starting this new group called Weather Report. I was so broke, man, I'm telling you I was
broke. I had my conga drums I was holding the door
and bringing the conga drums in, people were cursing at me, all kinds of terrible things,
and I was broke. I had this conga I had to get down there. I went down there and Zawinul says "hey, man,
we're traveling first class somewhere, think, this is going to be top notch." "Oh yeah, great." And at the end of it I said "how about some
car fare to get home?" He said "oh no, we don't give advances right
away." That was part of the problem. So anyway the next couple of days we go into
the studio to record. And I have to honestly say I don't really
care who sees what I'm saying here, this is the true fact, Zawinul got bossy and that's
really a small word, he got controlling. That's a better word. He started to control everything. Now that's his prerogative. You know he's the leader and stuff like that. But man, don't take away from what we've got
to give you. Now there was another percussionist on that
gig. There was an Afro-American girl who was a
legitimate percussionist. When I say legitimate I mean she was classically
trained, tympanis, mallets, the whole thing. She was on that session. We got into a hassle with Zawinul. Zawinul did not put my name on that record. MR: I'll be darned. DA: And when it came out and I put it on,
and I looked and that's me playing. There's a tune on there called I think "Time." I said that's me playing. So I called up Alphonze Mouzon and I said
"what's the deal here, man?" And he says "yeah, yeah, yeah you're playing
on it." I said "you didn't know that Zawinul did not
put my name and he put Airto or somebody?" And he didn't know that. So we had this falling out for years. I didn't want to have nothing to do with that
kind of thinking. Don't do that man. Don't ever do that. I don't care what kind of hassles that you've
got with your musicians, you don't deprive them of being recognized for a piece of music. Don't do that. So time goes on and I'm playing with Blood,
Sweat & Tears, and Jaco actually also was in Blood, Sweat & Tears, and I'm sitting in
a hotel room in Dallas, Texas, and I get a call from Jaco. And he's saying "man, I'm going with Weather
Report." He says "why don't you come on, man and we
can do this." I thought about it for a minute and I said
"well you know me and Joe had this big falling out you know." He said "I'll call you back in ten minutes." I got a call from Joe. Joe apologized for this whole thing. Now if you know Joe and you know his persona,
he's a controlling type of guy. I'm not saying anything that people don't
already know. So I said okay I'll join man, I'll join, no
problem. I'm sitting there in an hour, suddenly it
was really something. Just about an hour later the phone rings and
it's Miles. You know? And this was like '75 or just before he had
retired that long retirement. It's Miles. "Oh come on." Now this would be my second time coming back
in the band after all the "Bitch's Brew" stuff. I'd be going back in there a second time. And that was like, for me, a great honor,
you know to come back and play. I had to call back, I mean there's no choice. There's absolutely no choice. Not taking away from Zawinul, not taking away
from anybody, but Miles Davis calls you - what are you going to do? So I called back Zawinul and I says "Joe I
can't do it, Miles called and I can't, it's no choice." So he consequently went on to like put Miles
down, "oh man, Miles' music man, my music is better." Granted, give him that prerogative too, you
know, tell us about his music. But the end result, sorry Joe, there's no
question about this, and hung up. And I went with Miles. Unfortunately Miles only did about five or
six gigs after that because he was really sick, he was really sick and he retired after
that. But that was the whole story with the Weather
Report thing. MR: Wow. I'm surprised that group lasted as long as
it did. DA: Weather Report? MR: Yeah. With Zawinul and Wayne Shorter. DA: They clashed. MR: Yeah, I would imagine they would. DA: Yeah Zawinul again had a certain controlling
air about him, and I won't attribute that to any kind of like scene that he grew up
in or anything, I'm just going to leave that alone. But he had a controlling thing about him and
he wanted to be in charge and in control. And he had problems with Manola Badrena. You know that name? In Weather Report, or Heavy Weather rather. And would consequently get into a number of
fights with these guys. So leave it alone. We're friends, that's all I care about. MR: Right. Of the Pop people, sometimes it's hard to
make a distinction but of the Pop artists you've worked with, who have you enjoyed the
most? DA: Joni Mitchell, great band. Dan Fogelberg. That's my only - oh no that's not the only
one - I think "Bitch's Brew" is but a platinum record, I got a platinum record for that one
called "Innocent Age." And Ian Hunter - me and Jaco did him. English. MR: Ian Hunter. DA: Yeah, English guy, yeah, he made a record
with me and Jaco. I think it's Ian Hunter. MR: Was he in one of the Rock 'n Roll bands? DA: Yeah, oh yeah. MR: Gosh I can't remember it. DA: Oh yeah he was back in then, back in the
days. And of course Blood, Sweat & Tears. That was a wonderful experience because I
started playing percussion and then moved over to the drum set. Bobby Columby, who had been doing it from
the beginning, decided that he wanted to stay home I guess and collect the money. And I moved over to the drum chair, and for
me that was a great challenge. Again, here comes the challenge. And the writers in the band were great, Larry
Willis, Tony Klatka, they were great writers, they would write material for the band, jazz
orientated but you know it had that Blood, Sweat and Tears sound. So they also, if you consider them a Pop group,
because they were very successful. I came in at the very tail end of the success
you know. I was on salary. I didn't share in any of the revenues, shall
we say, in the band. MR: David Clayton Thomas was gone at that
time, wasn't he? DA: He had come back. When I came back in the band he had come back. He was a great singer for that type of stuff. MR: He still sounds good. DA: They're still going, right? MR: They're still out there, yeah. DA: Did you see them recently? MR: Yes I have. One of my high school buddies is now like
the music director, it's interesting. DA: Really? What's his name? MR: Steve Guttman. A trumpet player. Interesting. They sound good. They sound very close to the recordings. That's what they're about. DA: It's unlike that whole scene where an
act or a musician can survive playing his old stuff. I like that. You know that Mangione? He's still - what is his tune? MR: "Feels So Good?" DA: "Feels So Good" and all that stuff. MR: Yeah, and "Land of Make Believe." DA: "Land of Make Believe." He's still surviving in that market, where
people will come, they're older, forties and fifties, but still remember that scene, you
know, because the seventies was a great time. And they would come through and they would
see Chuck and he's still surviving off of that stuff. But surviving really good. Because he gets good musicians, and we get
a chance to play. MR: I saw Mick Jagger listed amongst - wait
a minute, who haven't you played with? Louis Armstrong I guess. DA: Oh I wish I could have done that. But Mick Jagger was really a funny scene. That was another funny scene. There was a producer there, Armenian or some
kind of name that ended in I-A-N - something Franconian or I don't know, the only reason
why I say that is because he was ethnically Far Eastern or something like that. But he was also a DJ in the clubs. He was producing this one tune. I don't know if you remember that Mick went
to do a solo album. And I think something like love is in the
title. I'm not sure, it's so long ago. And this producer called me up and he says
"hey man he wants you to play percussion on this Mick Jagger record." You know, I'm going to feel good playing with
Mick Jagger, you know, Miles Davis, like Mick Jagger gets the same amount of enthusiasm
too you know because here is a Rock 'n Roll guy. So I brought every piece of percussion instrument
that I could get my hands on. I brought the littlest shakers, I brought
big drums, small drums, I brought tambourines, I mean just a whole shitload of stuff, for
want of a better word. And I mean the place was just jammed with
drums and so forth. In other words, I wanted to be ready. Whatever this cat wanted, I'm going to give
it to you. Whatever that you're looking for, I'm going
to give that to you. Don't you - you know - turns out that Mick,
all they wanted was for me to play on a Syndrum, drum fills. If you know how a Syndrum sounds it's that
[scats]. So I sat there for six hours going [scats]. Six hours. Then the machine broke down. But if you ever get that record, I don't know
it may be out of print or so, you listen to it you're going to hear that drum fill. You're going to hear [scats] and that's it. MR: Were you saying to yourself man I wish
they would have told me over the phone, here I am with my - your apartment must be something. DA: Well actually no, I can't keep any stuff
there. I keep it downtown. But I just wanted to be ready, you know, Mick
Jagger. Who knows, maybe he may give me a gig or something. I mean what's his name is playing with Mick
now - Darryl Jones. You know that bass player that played with
Miles? He's playing - He's actually playing with
the Rolling Stones. MR: Right. I was out for a walk last night and I just
happened to watch a guy, obviously he was going to a gig, pulling the car over, getting
all the traps set, and stuff, and I'm thinking this must be a pain in New York City. DA: Oh man, let me tell you man, I used to
live in Providence, Rhode Island. And I would take that drum set and come down
by Greyhound bus. And taxicab drivers, they don't want to know
nothing about a bass player and a drummer. Get out of here with that stuff. Occasionally I would luck out and get a guy
who would take my drums, but it was always a pain in the neck trying to carry the stuff
around. A conga drum here, one conga drum, two conga
drums. But it's really funny now, of course you now
you acquire roadies along the way. And guys would say "oh man, you want to carry
this, this stick bag?" And I'd go "no." And I said "I don't mean to sound like a spoiled
brat, but listen man, I worked many years to not carry that stuff so please cut me some
slack. I don't want to know anything about carrying
anything. MR: I earned it. That's great. DA: You'd better believe it. In the snow, carrying conga drums. MR: We'll wrap up here, but you had said way
back in the beginning you were talking about when you started off and you had the other
job in the laboratory and the Civil Rights really hadn't come in full swing yet. Have you noticed over the years a change in
the relationship between the races in music? DA: Sure. We've always had this standard as far as like
jazz music is that that stuff is never going to enter in, you know, that prejudice stuff. We don't want no part of that. We're jazz musicians and we love everybody. We love each other. Get that stuff out of here. Miles was a perfect example of that, as much
as that he would want recognition for the Afro-American in terms of jazz music, he was
not prejudiced. He didn't care anything about - I mean he
got Bill Evans and all those guys in the band, Dave Hall. He didn't care anything about them. The change came about with the advent of certain
kinds of music that told black people they were in charge of their own stuff, you know? Whoever didn't like it, too bad. But as you know the Afro-Americans have taken
over the Rap scene. Some of it not to my liking. But over the course of time Afro-Americans
have gotten into the music business with those people who had any kind of prejudices towards
us, you're going to have to deal with it now baby. It's as simple as that. If you've got a sheet in your closet with
eyes in it and a pointed - you know you're not going to have a good time. So I'm saying with the advent of us getting
more into the business and controlling our own lives, great. But that's of course on the Pop level. The jazz level, humph. That's such a hard thing. Because you'll pick up a periodical or something
and the general gist of it, what you'll get from it, it'll say "jazz is still alive, jazz
is still alive, yeah, yeah." And then you'll look and you'll see Sweet
Basil close. You know and then you go over and Europe will
have this like kind of Montreaux festival. But in the Montreaux festivals you'll have
like N Sync or - you know what I mean? Yeah. Have some kind of Pop act or something like
that. It's hard, it's really hard to say about like
the colored thing in terms of what the influence in the jazz thing is. And then you'll open up a "Down Beat" and
you'll see all of these independent labels that have got all these people. I don't know half of these people who are
playing. So, question, is jazz alive? Is jazz dead? Does jazz still have any political undertones
to it where the Afro-American musicians are still crying "oh I can't get a break." Is all that stuff still happening? I suppose so. A little bit of it. If you want to stay true to your music, where
does a jazz musician, what does he do? MR: It's curious, sometimes it's like well
if you want to be really respected don't make too much money. Because then the critics will say you sold
out somehow. DA: Sure. How many times have they done that? They did it to George Benson when he started
to sing. And I say more power to it, because those
guys do it good. It's the guys that don't do it good on 101.9
where it really does sound trite. You know they're selling out, when you hear
all those trite melodies. MR: Yeah, it's like there's that formula. You know the thing that I judge, as soon as
that song is over, do you have any remembrance of that song? DA: No. Not at all. MR: Well I want to wrap up with - are we going
to make it - a quote from a mutual friend. DA: Lay it on me. MR: He said about you, he said, "He's one
of the greatest people I've ever known, I learned more from him than any other musician
I can think of." DA: Oh man. MR: From Rick Montalbano. DA: Mmm, yeah, I can't handle this kind of
stuff man. And vice versa. I learned, him being there during that period
of time was like he saved my spirit. He saved my spirit, which at one particular
time I didn't think was going to make it. But him being there, he's one guy that I would
go to lengths to do anything for. I'll give you an example. If Rick called up now and said "hey man I
need you up here," I'd go without even thinking about it. MR: Well listen, this has really been absolutely
fascinating. I want to thank you so much for sharing this
time with me. It was everything I expected. DA: I'll tell you man, you know, there's guys
in this music business that are superstars and they do this kind of thing like a lot
of times, you know, Sanborn and Herbie, I don't. I don't talk. I don't really talk. I don't have the opportunity to express myself
like this. I can't tell you what it means to me. MR: Excellent. It's been a great experience for me. All right?
