Dr. Eithan Haim Exposed Texas Children’s Hospital for Secret Transgender Program

- Dr. Eithan Haim, Marcella Burke, welcome to "Dad Saves America." - Thank you. Yeah, good to be here. - So this is gonna be a difficult conversation 'cause you have come forward this week as a whistleblower, as a doctor who's seen some things that are really troubling at the Texas Children's Hospital and have subsequently been brought under investigation by the Department of Justice, is my understanding. And so I want to be very sensitive here 'cause these are about issues that relate to children, relate to gender. And this is really the first time we've talked about this on the show, but you're here in Texas, and this was a unique opportunity for us to get a window into something that's going on. And as a parent myself, this matters a lot to me. And I think it matters a lot to a lot of American parents. And I think we need to understand what's going on. So I want to start off with you, Doctor, what has happened that has meant you need to come forward now publicly and move out of being an anonymous whistleblower to someone who's putting it all on the line? - Yeah. Yeah. - Like that's a big deal. - Yeah. Well, yeah. No, it's definitely a big deal as I fully expected it to be. But, you know, the story really starts in March of 2022. And just to give a little background on myself, you know, I'm from Florida, I had a great family growing up, you know, did medical school in Florida, and then I did my surgical training at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas. And when you're training for surgery, you're at a few different hospitals. One of those hospitals was Texas Children's. So we would spend a lot of time there. And in March of 2022, the hospital had released a statement unequivocally stating that they were going to shut down their program, like no longer prescribe the hormone based interventions for these kids with gender disorder. And this was in response to the Texas AG issuing an opinion saying it could be investigative child abuse. - This is Ken Paxton, right? - Yeah, yeah. So the hospital had led on that they were shutting down the program because it was also during that time that people were becoming more aware of what was happening in these hospitals, at these programs. People were shocked at seeing these surgeries and these medications being given to these children and them being put down a path where there's no going back and there's gonna be these irreversible changes that they can never come back from. So when the hospital had released that statement, I thought it was a good thing, right? That they're not doing it anymore. But a couple months later, you know, I hear more and more people are coming up to me, other residents who are telling me that they had just done these procedures on these kids, 11, 12, 13 years old, where they're putting these puberty blocking devices into kids for gender dysphoria and starting them down this path. And I thought it was so crazy because their statement just from a few months ago said that they were stopping it. And as time went on, I saw that not only was this like a few procedures, but they had elevated this to the highest priority. So the transgender program at TCH, the co-directors were given the opportunity to speak at the hospital's most prestigious lecture series. Right, they were talking about their algorithmic pathway, right? For all the primary care doctors to screen these people, sometimes behind the backs of the parents in order to get them into that clinic. - So wait, what does that mean? Their algorithmic pathway? What are you talking about there? - Yeah, so it's, you know, the algorithm, right? You have social transition, right? Where a boy adopts a girl's name and then lives as a girl and their former name is their dead name, right? - Yeah. - So then- - [John] I've heard this, these terms. - In the pre pubescent stage, right? Like Tanner stage two, they'll initiate the puberty block devices or medications where it's a hormone that blocks the release of androgens in order to stimulate the development of puberty and secondary sexual characteristics. Then you'll have hormones and then, you know, surgeries beyond that. - I'm gonna play dumb also because I am on these issues. When you say secondary sexual characteristics, what does that mean? - Oh, like penile development, breast development. - Okay. So going through puberty. - Yeah. - Bodies changing. - Exactly, yeah, yeah. - Okay. - So these drugs stop that from happening? - Exactly. Yeah. And so they were giving these lectures and these were the most important lectures in the hospital, but this is for a program that apparently to the public did not exist, right? The other- - You saw these lectures firsthand? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So set the stage for me on this. So you're a surgeon. Are you doing your residency at the hospital at this point? - Yeah, yeah, multiple hospitals, but that was one that we were rotating at. - And I come from a medical family, that doesn't mean I know anything. - Yeah. - But my dad's an ear, nose and throat surgeon and both of his parents were doctors as well. My grandmother delivered babies. - [Eithan] Yeah. - So you're at, you're in your residency for people that don't know, what is the residency, what stage of that? - Yeah. - Are you really, are you a doctor yet when you're in your residency? - Yeah, so you go through medical school, right? That's four years long and then you graduate, then you have your MD but your residency is the period of time that you're training in a specialty. So like, if you're going through like a medicine residency, you go through that to become a medicine doctor. For me it was general surgery. So it's five years of surgical training to learn the basics of general surgery and how to become a competent surgeon. - And what kind of, just for background for people, what does that mean you're doing in your residency? What kind of surgical things are you participating? - Yeah, so you know, at Texas Children's you would do, you know, tons of appendectomies because kids come in, you would- - Appendicitis. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. You would do hernias on little kids, you know, if, if they had 'em, I mean, you know, really wide breadth of surgeries and because it's a specialty hospital, then you would do a lot of complex surgeries too, you know? And then also when you're at like Ben Taub, we would do trauma, the VA you know, bread and butter, general surgery. - [John] So you, there's these lecture series, so is like, you go to the conference room and you and a bunch of the doctors sit and get a presentation like, what is this? - Yeah, yeah. Typically that's what it was. But post COVID, all of it was via Zoom. - Okay, so there's actually like video evidence of these things too. - Yeah, yeah. I mean this is what they were advocating for publicly. - So they're saying, here is the way that we go about moving someone who's 11 and saying, and is a girl and saying, "I think I'm a boy," from affirming that in what you say. Like, okay, you're not Melinda now you're- - Mike. - You're Mike or whatever. - Yeah, yeah. - And changing the pronouns and all that. And then moving from that, where does it end? - Yeah, so it depends on who you ask. I mean, I would say it ends in a place of, you know, de-identification where you take the soul of the individual, take it out from within them and put it somewhere else. I mean, it's because they're, each part of it is denying their true self because how they were born is they're perfect the way they are. Like when you go through puberty, I mean, these things are hard. You look weird, you sound weird, and you know, it's uncomfortable. You're going through uncomfortable changes, but you go through it in order to become an adult. And it's overcoming those challenges that teach you how to become a person because it's those lessons that you need later in life. You know, how to deal with that stress, how to deal with those insecurities. And that's why it's so critical. But they're saying, if you come in here and you feel uncomfortable with yourself, here's a pill and just delay that discomfort. We'll just make that go away. But that's not how it should be because those challenges, all of that is part of what, what makes a human a human, that's it. - I wanna come back to that, the morals and the philosophy. But I want to, but before we do, because there a lot to cover in there. So you are seeing these presentations lengthen this process out. - Yeah, yeah. - And then did you perform any of these procedures yourself? - Well, you know, we would do the puberty blocking implants, but on kids who had actual hormonal disorders. - [John] So what does that mean? - Like, if there's certain chromosomal abnormalities or conditions that lead to like something called precocious puberty. So their really, really early onset of puberty. That's an actual physiological condition that requires medical management. But in this case, these kids do not have any hormonal issues. They are perfectly healthy. - And what is this procedure? Lay it out for me. - Yeah, so it's an implant that you put into a child's arm and it, a lot of times it's done in the office, but for kids who may not be able to tolerate it, because, you know, for whatever reason, if maybe they're, you know, have psychiatric issues or they're very sensitive, which, you know, is common, you know, reasonable in children, they would take 'em to the operating room under like general anesthesia. - [John] So you can perform this without going under anesthesia? - Yeah. - And Marcella, we're obviously we're gonna bring you into this conversation. Your firm is representing Dr. Haim. So as we get into the legal weeds, that's why you're here. But to just to stay with you for now. So you've, so the hospital has said we're not doing this anymore. - And it wasn't on their website, right? So there was no indication that this program existed, it had no online presence. And that's important because every clinic at Texas Children's, like for these ultra rare diseases, will have an online presence because people need a way to get to the clinic, right? See who the doctors are. They have a little biography about themselves and then they can schedule appointments. But you know, in this case, nothing. - And then you have hard evidence that this is, that that's a lie. That that's not how, that they said they're not doing this, but they're doing it. - Yeah. - They're still doing it and they're doing it on kids as young as 11. Is that the youngest you've- - Yeah. - Got evidence of? - Yeah, that I, yeah, yeah. - Was that an aberration or is that kind of the spectrum? - Well, Tanner stage two, you know, prepubescent. - Right, so that by almost, by definition they have to be catching, stopping puberty before it starts. - Yeah. - Which means 10, 11. Once you get in at 12, you're starting to change. - 'Cause what they would say is you stop the onset of puberty in order to allow the child to discover what gender they're a part of. Which is, I mean, that's a whole different thing. - Yeah, we'll get to that. And I know like there's gonna be a lot of, there's a lot of different opinions on this matter. Okay, so you, below, you feel that you have to say something about this. So what do you do next? - So, you know, you go into medicine, you go into surgery because you wanna protect patients from their diseases, but you never imagine you have to protect these patients from the hospitals and as- - Or maybe even from their own parents in some cases. - Yeah, as a doctor, you have a responsibility to the patient, right? You have, you took an oath and you have a responsibility for that. So given that the biggest children's hospital in the world was lying to the public about the existence of their transgender program, you know, I had a responsibility to do it. Any doctor has a responsibility to do that. And that's why, you know, around January that time, 2023, you know, I began to reach out to journalists because I saw what was happening. And, you know, for a children's hospital to do this, is a egregious violation of medical ethics something that is unconscionable. - And what happened next? So like in that moment, like how did that, how did your outreach to journalists turn into people hearing about it? - Yeah. - Because when you Google this, you'll bring up in May, you know, like again that attorney general talking about investigating Texas Children's Hospital. - Yeah. - And maybe this is a good moment to say so. So Marcella, at this point, are these things legal? What the, let's leave aside, they said they aren't doing it anymore and that there's fraud in doing a thing you say you're not doing, but was it legal to be doing this with kids as early as 11 years old? - So no, there's not a single state law that would allow for child abuse or that would allow for the mutilation of perfectly healthy children. And that's a big legal issue here in this case, that these things are not legal. - Now you used two terms, child abuse and mutilation, they're pretty charged. So I want to really push into that. So obviously I think the parents and the people who advocate for this would say, "Well no, that's not child abuse and it's not mutilation. "This is gender affirming care," or this is whatever term they think is appropriate. How should I understand that this procedure to inject these substances that lead to these changes in their body during this important time? How do I, how should I understand that to be mutilation or child abuse? Like, help me understand that from a legal perspective. - So legally, those are legally operative words. Every state has a child abuse statute, and those words would be defined by state law. So it's a state by state basis on whether or not something is child mutilation, whether something is child abuse, whether something's assault, whether there's battery. There could be medical negligence, medical malpractice, violations of ethics that have been infringed on other liability in the civil context would be the business fraud. Your deceptive trade practices, you're selling one product, but giving another, you're telling these children, it's not permanent that you're pausing puberty when actually these children will never, ever grow their anatomy to their completion. And Dr. Haim can give you all the technical words for that. But these boys will never, ever have the anatomy of a grown man ever. And they're 11 and they're being given these treatments and also women. And so they'll be sterile for life and create all sorts of other physical problems. It harms their health otherwise, bones, blood pressure, heart, their endocrine system, all sorts of medical problems that makes you ward of the medical state, very lucrative for these hospitals. And so all of those could be legally challenged because of the situation. You've put these children in, fraud. And so there's a lot of liability and these doctors are facing liability and a number of these patients have come out as de-transitioners and they're bringing these lawsuits and they're winning them and they're settling them. But, you know, another thing we could talk about is, so if it's illegal, how is it happening? - Right, and I want to get, I want to get to that. - [Marcella] Yeah. - So you, so like right after I understand what comes next. So you're like, this shouldn't be happening. I have a duty, Hippocratic Oath. How you understand your responsibility as a doctor, as a caretaker, and you reach out to journalists. What comes next? What happens next? - Yeah. So months and months failed. You know, tried reaching out. - What kind of responses are you getting from people? - Mostly no response, you know, and I mean, I'm- - Are you sending people any kind of thing to say, to suggest that what you're saying isn't just hearsay or you're not just a crank? - Yeah, I try to give like a little background like, "Hey, you know, I'm a surgeon. "I'm here at this hospital, this is happening." Yeah. You know, there were like- - [John] But no like documents or anything like that or? - No, no. I mean, so I finally get ahold of Christopher Rufo in like mid-May, and it was someone who worked with his team and you know, we go through this process where he just verified who I was and that this was legit. And I didn't know this at the time, but a vote was being just the week after, like the week or two after. - [John] Yeah. - The Texas Senate was voting on SB 14, which was gonna be the law that was gonna ban these interventions on children. And, you know, it's embarrassing 'cause I had no idea what that was. I didn't even know it existed, even though I mean, it just goes to show how separated you could be from like Texas politics, but we go through this verification process and just to make sure I am who I am. And he wanted to release a story because he knew it was the real thing. And it goes to show that like, after so many of these other people had, you know, just ignored the story. Rufo, he's the real deal. He's an amazing journalist because he knew this was something meaningful. So he picked it up and then. - [John] And this was sort of his beat. I mean, he's taken on these- - Yeah. - The gender related issues and other things, you know, and he's willing to take the slings and arrows for it. - Yeah, yeah. So the story comes out on May 16th and was showing definitively that the hospital was lying to the public about a program that was manipulating these kids, mutilating 'em, and then sterilizing 'em and comes out on the 16th and, you know, all over the news, all the big names taken. And then the very next day, the story does exactly what we hoped it would do. So the conduct that we had exposed was voted to become illegal the very next day in a bill that was passed with bipartisan support. And we were told that because of our story coming out the day before, it had helped a couple of votes who were on the fence. And that's absolutely amazing because now, you know, Texas can be protected from this type of practice. And, you know, the story goes on from there. You know, a couple days later, another whistleblower comes out who had worked with these doctors, who had seen, you know, how these other psychiatric issues were being ignored. All everything being attributed to this issue of them supposedly being transgender and being horrified how they were being started on these powerful, powerful medications after very short periods. Then the Texas Attorney General announces the investigation to the hospital, then the CEO of the hospital, Mark Wallace, states for the second time in 14 months that he's shutting down the program because of the passage of SB 14. - What happened at the hospital after that? Do you know anything about what came next? Or did does it look like it really has shutdown or we don't really know? - Yeah, I couldn't say because I had, you know, although I was rotating there during that time. - [John] Yeah. - We wouldn't, you know, I graduated in June, so just about, you know, six weeks later. - So Marcella, the Texas legislature passes this bill, which sounds like what you're saying is, is essentially layering on top a more explicit ban on a thing that one could say was already illegal under other statutes. - Correct. - Is that a right, good way to understand that? - Correct, right. Correct, and I've created additional criminal liability for these procedures. - Has the hospital said, "Look, well, we stopped now. "So that law wasn't in effect before. "So we're fine with what has been revealed." I mean, what came of the hospital? Is the hospital liable for what was done before? I mean, I guess- - The hospital would be liable for what's done before. Patients could challenge what the hospital did, what the individual doctors did, what anybody involved did. And they could, they could sue under any of the laws that were in effect at the time, absolutely. And also there could be criminal liability. The Department of Justice could investigate, so could the state of Texas, because these hospitals are funded by federal and state funds, and so they can be held accountable, they can be, the CEO could still go to the Federal Congress and have to hold account for what happened and could go to the State House and have to hold account for what happened. And so there's a number of different avenues, excuse me, of legal recourse for these procedures that happened in the past. And of course, if anything were to happen again in the future in Texas, for example. - It's even clearer now, - Even clearer, especially under that particular statute. So now you have, you have another avenue for prosecution against doctors and hospitals who promote these practices. - So I understand that at the time that we're talking about when this story comes out that you went to Rufo with, under a pseudonym. Is that right? So your name was not cited in any of the reporting. - Yeah, it was. Yeah. - I knew he produced a video that helped told the story, calling it a House of Horrors, which I just watched right before we started just to kind of load it in a ram memory for me. - [Eithan] Yeah. - How were you feeling at that point? Because you're anonymous, but this is like the most charged topic and I have talked to many people who say, of all the activists, these activists are, to be perfectly honest, the most, the scariest, frankly. - Yeah. - Like, I've been told by multiple people that they are more afraid of activists on behalf of transgender related issues than any other issue. Black Lives Matter or the January 6th, like you name it, this is the one that really seems to light people up in a way that can be scary and even turn like, into personal intimidation. So did you face anything like personal intimidation after that, or were you, did the anonymity work? - Well, at that point in time, you know, May after the story came out, yeah. I mean, I was completely anonymous. No one knew who I was, so not at that point. - And Marcella, there's this this concept of being a whistleblower. So educate me on this, what does this mean? By doing this and being a whistle was, legally, was Eithan a whistleblower legally? And does that, did that afford him any particular legal protections that are meant to allow people to do things like that, like blow the whistle when there's something bad going on? - Sure, so a whistleblower is a statutorily protected, basically form of speech where you would let an authority know of inappropriate behavior going on in an organization so that authority can investigate. And so you're providing evidence, essentially. And then you would negotiate with that agency for what your role would be. So sometimes it might be something that you, yourself participated in. And so you might say, "This is happening, I've done it. "I wanna admit it. "I wanna negotiate for immunity "and I'll tell you what's been going on." - Sure. - It might be, and that can happen with federal government. It can happen in the state government. In Dr. Haim's case, he was not involved in this. It was something he had seen and heard about. And that was just common knowledge being promoted again in lecture series and across the hospital. - Yeah, and even on what sounds like internet accessible videos elsewhere. - [Marcella] Absolutely. - Beyond the Texas Children's Hospital, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. For like the College of Medicine, yeah. - Yeah, for the Baylor College of Medicine. So the whistleblower stat, but there's a status and based, and there's elements under state law. And Dr. Haim met all those and so- - And is that true, even though you didn't go to a government agency, you went to a journalist or I know people were like, well, is he really a journalist? He doesn't work for the New York Times, but. - Well, we wanna be careful here with some of the background details just to protect Dr. Haim, the process. - Sure. - But I can tell you that we, journalists have certain privileges and when Dr. Haim went to the Attorney General, he was in a whistleblower under the statute. And that was clear and established whenever he participated in conversations with them. - So you've now come forward into the public with your name and face out here. Okay, I was one of these people that came forward in this. And I have strong opinions about the ethics and the morality and the reality of this. Things happened legally after the fact and I want to get to that 'cause they involved the Department of Justice and some things that are, should chill everyone, frankly, in the country. But before I do, if I can be, if I can wear my promos hat and like leave you, leave people cliff hanging for a minute, I want to better understand what is going on and what was going on. Let's assume that they aren't lying this time and that they actually aren't doing this anymore. Which seems like not a safe assumption, but let's assume that. At the time when they were doing this, I want to be as empathetic to parents as possible because when I'm a parent myself, this dad saves America. That's why you're here 'cause this is about things facing our kids but can you give me a sense of what is going on or multiple senses like, of what's happening here? I come into the hospital because my 11-year-old daughter says she thinks she's a boy? Like, what is the, what are the steps that lead to this procedure what are these people that claim to be experts and medical professionals telling me as a parent that would lead me to say, okay to something that would prevent my son from developing a fully functional penis as an adult, for example? - I think a important question to answer that is to ask, you know, what's the role of the parent? And I believe that role is to teach children how to contend with reality. Because with children, there is a principle of limited understanding because they're children, they haven't undergone the life experiences to understand the consequences for their actions, which is the role of the parent in order to teach them the lessons and the principles in order to be able to contend with reality in an effective way, to grow up into an adult and live a happy life and to have meaning in their lives. What's happening here is that they're failing on that initial front. They're failing to allow these kids to contend with reality because the reality is they're either a boy or a girl. That's it. And by failing to have them acknowledge that fact and accept that, and that it's gonna be hard going through puberty and they're, it's gonna be uncomfortable, but that's reality. You have to contend with it. By failing on that, they're leading them down this road to where these misdirected doctors are able to perform these interventions and take them farther down that road. And once they get so far down it, there's no turning back 'cause there's gonna be one morning they wake up, look in the mirror and they think, "Oh my God. Like, who am I?" Right? "What have I done to myself?" You know, "Can I even have a family?" And that person's gonna realize that the people who were supposed to protect me were the ones, you know, who had thrown me to the wolves because that's how I got here in the first place. - Can I ask a question or comment about the what's changed in medicine? And it also has legal implications when it's a minor wanting to make these changes. In the past, it might be that the child might present, change their name or dress differently, but there would not be surgical interventions. And then it seemed to be during the COVID timeframe, so I've heard you frame it before that a lot of that changed and they started doing the physical interventions, which is what the mutilation, the assault, battery, those legal remedies start coming into play during that timeframe. And so now we're living in a world where this is sort of added to the list of things that came out during COVID of what institutions are doing to our children. - Well, there's a bigger picture that I think we are all contending with, especially as parents and COVID accelerated these things, but it didn't start them, right? And we talk about this on this show all the time. There's been this substantial rise in anxiety and depression and depression among, you know, Gen Z that's really sort of manifested over the 2010s in particular. And that, that has resulted in much elevated levels of suicide. And so as a parent, and I've, I have made changes to my own, my son's education for these kinds of reasons. Not because he was having anxiety and depression, but because frankly I pulled him from a class that was starting to as a sixth grader present gender fluidity things to him. And it's like, he's 10 and what are you doing? And I'm not, and it was a private school here in Austin, Texas. So, and I met with the principal and I was like, I can't, I can't let him be in this environment. I'm not gonna pay for this. And thank God I have the resources to choose. But let me paint a particular picture. I'm a parent. I have a 11-year-old daughter who is very psychologically troubled, very uncomfortable, very prone towards crippling anxiety and saying that she thinks she, she doesn't like her body, the things that she feels starting to happen with her. And says, "I think I might be transgender." And I'm a normal person and I love my daughter. And I'm very worried and I know that this, there's a risk of suicide. So I come to the Texas Children's Hospital and what am I told? What is my experience? - According to the affirmative care model in which they adopt, if a child says that they're transgender, then that means they have always been transgender. That's the definition they use. - So I just say it, now it's true? - Yes. - How is that medicine? - It's not. - I mean. - No, no, it's closer to- - Like if I was, if I'm having trouble with, and I go to a psychologist and I'm depressed and I'm anxious and I want to like harm myself, I would think that the psychologist's job isn't to say, yes you should, or that yes, that's just what you are. But to actually to do the opposite of that, to like try to get to, well, what's underneath this and what's causing you this discomfort? - It seems like a contradiction, right? Like, oh, this is medicine? That seems like a contradiction, but contradictions do not exist. If you do find one, just check your premises. What they're doing is not medicine. - So what's happening then? So I go in, come in and they say, okay, you're saying you're a boy now or you feel like you're a boy and you want to be called a different name and with different pronouns and they just say, okay, yeah, we're on board with that. - [Eithan] Yeah. - What if I'm me and who would be very resistant to this, and I say, I don't, I bring my daughter in. I don't have a daughter, but let's imagine. And because I am still worried and she and I've done what I can try to do to say like, this is not what this is. This is a phase, this is fad. This is like too much TikTok. Like, and I take away her phone and, but she's still gonna school with all these other girls that are talking about this stuff. And I go to the doctor who's this authority, what do they say to me when I say, I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna call her a him. - It's interesting you bring that up because one of the videos that was part of the story had demonstrated that exact situation, the exact situation where you had a parent who had questioned this whole idea about adopting this new gender. And that's when they bring out their big guns. They say, well, you know, I have to respect your opinion and all, but if we don't pursue this pathway that's gonna increase their risk for suicide, which is, in my opinion, the most malicious form of blackmail you could ever tell to a parent. Because you're telling them that if you don't listen to me, if you don't put your kids on these drugs, that's gonna change 'em for the rest of their lives. If you don't tell, you know your kid, that they have to hate themselves, that they have to adopt this new identity that's based off hatred of their true self, that they're gonna kill themselves and it's gonna be your fault. That's what they're saying and to put- - I mean, that's an impossible nightmare for me as a parent to be able to. - To put parents in that position is unforgivable. It's unforgivable to put the parents and the children in that position. - As a parent, like, and now my son's 18 and he's getting ready to leave the house and go to college and go off. And I'm already thinking like, he's gonna be further away. What if something happens? Like, you know, we're neurotic basket cases, like we're constantly worried from the minute they're born and you take them home. Like there is always a part of you that's like, what if they die? What if they die? What if they die? What if they? It's like, it's always there. Like my son's driving, it's at night. God, what if he gets in an accident? He's been in a couple of accidents. I'm like, what if he dies? What if he dies? Like it's weird and horrible and it's like the, there's a lot of blessings of parenthood, but that concern is like not really a blessing. It's this thing. - It also calls into question informed consent, if you're- - And what does that mean, informed consent? - So informed consent, Dr. Haim can talk more about that. There's a lot of rules around that. It's a also a legally operative term. And also it's something that has to be achieved in order for a doctor to maintain their license before having patients undergo certain treatments. And if you are as a doctor or as a hospital training your doctors to essentially put patients already in vulnerable positions and their families already in vulnerable positions into a state of duress that this has gone from, my child's confused to my child is going to commit suicide if I don't do this. And so that's going to be then the argument used to achieve consent. There's a lot of very strong challenges that could be made to that approach. - I mean, it's not the same thing as saying your wallet or your life, but it's not that far off. It kind of rhymes with that. It's like our medical treatment or your kids' life. That's what, that's- - It's also your wallet. - And. - It's also your wallet. - Well, yes. And it's like a lifelong. - It's lifelong medical treatment, not just for the abuse you've achieved physically, but an experience, but also the mental health and again, the endocrine issues and your bones and your heart and all your major organs. I mean, the amount of physical trauma you go through when you have these treatments done is staggering. - Now that might all be worth it if my choice is between, as has been said elsewhere, a living son or a dead daughter. I've heard this, some formulation of this phrase, would you rather have a living son or a dead daughter? I hope none of these Texas parents have been told that exact thing. I fear that they've, many have. - Of course they have. It's the most malicious lie that's ever been told in medicine, in my opinion. - So why is that a lie? Because these are? The kids who are troubled, right? And there is, there is this, the reason I go online and I Google, right? I'm trying, I want to be, I'm trying to be empathetic here because I'm gonna be honest, like I find all of this to be crazy. And so I'm trying to be responsible instead of let my nature show, which is just like, this is all completely insane. But I think people watching who to me would be reasonable would be like, this sounds barbaric and horrible, but I'm gonna set those words aside now and come back to, all right, so I've got this kid who's struggling, I love them dearly. I am Googling as we all do now, and Google presents all manner of nonsense. But some of it's not nonsense and I can't tell which is and which isn't. So I see suicide rates and I see all these other things that suggest, well, maybe this is better than the alternative. And then I go to the expert at the biggest children's hospital, you said in the world, is that right? So Texas Children's Hospital is the biggest children's hospital on planet earth. - Yes. - Well that's crazy. I didn't realize that. In red state of Texas with Greg Abbott and you know, good old Ken Paxton, God bless him with his, all his stuff. (laughs) - Well, you see these things in red states because a lot of red states have tort reform. So those are statutes that limit the liability of doctors for malpractice, which makes it a state more friendly for doctors to practice. So that way the plaintiffs can't abuse doctors and say lie about being harmed when they weren't. But because of that, that puts limits on the damages that can be received in certain states for certain practices by doctors. And so that's the double-edged sword of tort reform. And in Texas, for example, the new law establishes new liabilities to it, you know, add to damages to these types of things. But it's also in a state like Texas where you then as a taxpayer who didn't know these things were going on, could call their legislator, could call their state rep, could call their attorney general, their governor could call the Texas Children's Hospital, where they receive treatment and ask them what the heck is going on? And have a lot of quick recourse also because it's a red, again, that's the double-edged sword of the red state. There's good and bad being in a state like Texas. - So but I'm, so to come back to this, to my deeply worried parent who's googling, I will then come across people who are of advocates for this and including really the current administration and say, this is gender affirming care. That's the phrase that gets used. And, and say, oh no, there's studies that show that this is that statement about you'd rather have a living son than a dead daughter or vice versa. That that's true. That they've done the work, they've done the studies have been done. You know, the science is, I hate to say the science is settled because that's, it's the most anti-science thing anyone can ever say in the whole world. It's like, it's like saying, I don't believe in science as a process at all. But what's the answer to people who say that? That say no, they're being responsible. They're just, they're delivering a hard truth to the parent. - My answer would be that there's a third option, right? Living son, dead daughter. Or you just tell them you're perfect the way you are. You're going through a hard time. You'll get through it. These hard times you're going through, you'll be better off on the other end of it because you will have learned how to deal with those challenges in life. And you're a precious human and you are made here for a reason. So why give them that binary, which is evil, to tell 'em that. And I can't imagine that anyone could sit across from a parent and tell 'em that, especially a doctor, especially a surgeon. You know, when we take people to the operating room, we cut on 'em, you know, it's a big deal because you're putting them at risk. So you have to make sure what you're telling them is true, that they have a problem. You have to use all of your knowledge. And that's why we go through so much training and so much, you know, difficulty, because if you do have someone who carries that responsibility of being a doctor, a surgeon, you wanna make sure that they know what they're doing and that they wouldn't take someone to an operating room for something that's not true. And in this case, this is not true. - This reminds me, and again, as coming from a family of doctors and being someone who's actually always been like, my wife makes fun of me for this because I've always been more inclined to just do whatever my dad says. Like, go get the flu shot, I'll go get the flu shot. Like, whatever he says to do. I'm like, I trust my dad. He's a great doctor. I grew up going to the mall and having moms come up and thank my dad for, you know, putting tubes in their kid's ear and him now, and him being great again. But this all kind of reminds me of like the Milgram experiment. So this experiment where they basically showed that people when presented with a guy in a lab coat will shock a person, you know, in another room to the point of seeming to kill them. So long as like a guy in a lab coat is telling them, no, no, no, this is the experiment. Like we have this weird desire to sort of turn off our cognitive processes if a guy puts a lab coat on and to, and assumes authority wearing a uniform. And I know, I'm like, it's like, well yeah, you're a doctor and I'm not, but if you're the doctor and you're telling me things that are false, it's not, it's like way worse than me over lunch saying, maybe you should do this or that. - [Eithan] Yeah. - Because I'm not wearing the lab coat. - There's two important lessons from that. There's one from the perspective of the patient that the people in the lab coats have a lot of power. So you should always be cautious, make sure what they're telling you makes sense that they're explaining things in simple terms. That's a lesson from the patients. But there's a lesson for the doctors as well, because from that, you understand the responsibility you hold, that when people come into your office, you have a position of power. So when you have these concerned, scared people in front of you, you have to be responsible because they're relying on you. They're putting trust in you. And that is the oath you take when you become a doctor. - You can't coerce your patients. They have to make a free choice. And they have to have informed consent and informed needs to be informed under facts and reality, not speculation and fearmongering. - You can't inform someone, you can't undergo informed consent for something that isn't real. - So what you're saying directly, but somewhat indirectly, is that the claims made that this is an intervention that does save lives are false. - [Eithan] Yes, absolutely. - Why do you believe that to be true? Why do you believe that the people putting forward to the whole country, that we have to intervene here with these anxious, depressed kids who are anxious and depressed in new ways that we've never seen, and whose anxiety and depression don't, aren't evenly distributed. So there seems to be a lot more an anxious and depressed kids confused about their gender in California than in Idaho, like that's a fact. And apparently, I have some stats I wanna pull up on this. So 23% of Gen Z adults, adults and 17% of millennials identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or something else. So non heterosexual, 23% of Gen Z, which is up from 17% of millennials, the most common claim, 57% in that alphabet soup, which keeps adding letters and stuff, is 57% say they're bisexual. Gen Z women are three times more likely to make these claims than men. Millennial women are two times more likely than men. So the disparities in not just geography, but in generation, unless we're putting stuff in the water and Alex Jones is right about turning the frogs gay. And maybe there's truth to that. I don't know. Endocrine disruption, I don't know, but like, let's assume Alex Jones is Alex Jones and we're in the world of an actual serious medical discussion but that's all psychological, right? - Yeah. - Why is that? Why is that controversial? - It's a psychological issue, right? So if you have a psychological issue, if you have a psychological problem, you need a psychological solution. Just like if you have a physiological problem, you need a physiological solution, which is why you wouldn't treat depression with an appendectomy. - Haven't we been through this already in medicine? - Like lobotomies. - Right. - [Eithan] Yeah. - So there's this sort of move towards, you know, I've got a scalpel and everything's a scalpel solution. Have you looked carefully into this study that gets cited about this issue? - Oh, I mean- - Can we speak to that? - All these studies, right? Well, if- - I understand there's not that, this is all pretty new. - Yeah. - So like I don't, with these claims being made that are really strong to not be built on anything seems really crazy. - But that's the point. Because if the very foundation of the pathology they're investigating, if you can't make any rational argument for the interventions, then all the studies are fraudulent. - [John] What do you mean by that? Help me understand that. - Like, you have to be able to explain the treatment for the pathologies you're pursuing. So for example, appendicitis, we see that all the time 'cause I'm a general surgeon. You have your appendix, it gets infected, it gets inflamed, starts causing pain. That's how it's been for millennia. It's reproducible, consistent, how it's been always. Our treatment is to go into the abdomen, take out the appendix, right? That's the logic. You have an inflamed appendix, you take it out. That's logic. In this case, they can't even properly define the terms that they're seeking to treat. If you cannot do that, then you have no basis for the interventions. If you cannot even define the terms. Like in appendicitis, you define it by its pathological characteristics under a microscope. But those pathological characteristics manifest in the real world because when you put your hand on it, you can feel it. When you look at it, you can see it. I mean, it looks really nasty, really inflamed, you know, there could be pus everywhere. That's real. That's something that follows this logical series of events in terms of treatment, right? Same thing with a heart attack, right? For people who do like open heart surgery and you know, like bypasses, right? You have a blocked artery. The logic is you take another blood vessel and you bypass it, restore blood flow. That's a logic. But in this case, there is no logic. - Now are you, do you have surgical do you have surgeon bias here? So my dad's, I- - I would say I have a logic bias. - But bear with me and let me get over my skis a little bit and reel me back in. So, you know, there's the things you've described here are have really like sharp edges around them. Like, you know, needing an appendectomy or having, you know, having prostate cancer and having, needing to remove a prostate. These surgical things were like, we got this problem. Here it is, we can see it, remove it. But there are all these things that are not psychological, but they're way fuzzier. So for example, in my own life, my wife had Lyme disease, which is real weird. And there you will go to doctors and they'll say, there actually is no such thing as Lyme disease. That's one answer. Like, there's one answer that you get or the set of symptoms that you're experiencing are this weird spectrum. And so when you finally do get diagnosed, it's not like you need your appendix out, you got tonsillitis, it's time to get your tonsils out. It's more like, well, you got this, this, this and that, and we've tested for this, this and that, and these little spirochete things. And it's fuzzier, autoimmune disorders. There is a lot in medicine that's fuzzy. - And this, right, very fuzzy to use your words, right? But these interventions they're prescribing are the sharp things you had just described. They're very defined that are gonna have lasting impacts. So it's the same exact logic. You wouldn't use these treatments for something that's so ephemeral, especially during adolescence, something that's gonna put 'em on a path towards, you know, irreversible state of physiology. - Is this always the case? So do these, you cut open their arm and you inject, put this thing in that releases this chemicals that impacts their, is it the the endocrine system, their hormones? - [Eithan] Yes. - Is that the? So it's a hormone blocker? Is it absolutely, like, is there no credibility to the claim that this is reversible or that this is just we're pausing puberty? I'm not showing a lot of respect for this position. I admit that, but I want to give the devil its due. Literally. Is there no case like, okay, I bring my son and this starts, they go through this first phase and then it stops and he goes through normal puberty. Or this is kind of like a done deal? - It depends on the duration. You go, you have, you know, one month, right? It's probably not gonna have that large of an effect. But for these kids who are on it for an extended period of time, there's no way to get that time back. There's no way, right? When you grow and you were never allowed to go through puberty, there's no way to get that time. And I think the best example is that case of Jazz from the show. - [John] Yeah. Oh yeah. - He had never gone through puberty. So when he underwent the, whatever bottom surgery he had done, he didn't have enough penile tissue to serve for the purpose of his whatever they they were doing. So they had to use a flap from elsewhere in the body. And I mean that's proof of it itself. Those are the secondary sexual characteristics I was referring to before, right? It takes time. - Yeah. - To develop those. Those are stimulated by your hormones. - My wife gave a perspective that only a woman could give me, which is that when she was going through puberty and she's developing breasts, it's like the worst thing ever. It's like, it's the worst. It's like you're, it's uncomfortable, you're changing fast. And it's like really uncomfortable things start to happen. Like cousins and uncles look at you like sexually they like, and like, that's awful. So you're like, you're a little girl and now you're having, and I could like it, this was hit me like a, I was like thunderstruck by this and it's sort of like obvious in a way, but she's like, it's the most uncomfortable, horrible thing you can possibly go through to go through puberty as a young girl turning into a young woman. And I mean, what I do know is what it's like as a boy, which is you're getting erections all the time and it's like you're dreading going to gym class and having to wear sweatpants. I mean these are like the real things that are happening (laughs) that are like the worst. Like, when you're sweating and I still get frigging acne. - [Eithan] Yeah, you start smelling. - I'm 46 and I'm still getting acne and, but it's like all of that's happening. You know, I got hairy early, so I'm being called a monkey when I'm 12 years old. Everything about that is like the worst and we all know it. My son called middle school, which is when all this stuff really kicks in, the Hunger Games 'cause even just the behavior of middle schoolers, they're like lunatics. How do you think about this, Marcella? Not as a lawyer but just as like a- - As a mom. - A person, a mom, a woman. - I'm a mom of four boys, and- - So you got a house of lunatics. - I am outnumbered. And when I got a phone call about this case, I never thought I would ever, I'm an environmental lawyer by trade. I've worked in the government. I mean, this is not the type of work I do. My legal team is full of experts and they're the ones taking the lead on the legal piece for Dr. Haim but when I got the call about this case and this surgeon who had blown the whistle and who had now been investigated by the Department of Justice and needed help, it was a visceral reaction. And I spoke to Chris Rufo, he's who called me and told me about this case. And he said, "I've got this whistleblower, he needs help." He told me the story. He said, "Here's a link to a story I wrote. "It's my biggest story I've ever had." I think 8 million people read this. The breaking of the story. - Yeah, and I've known Chris a long time, actually we go back before when he was doing documentaries about homelessness, so even in general. - Yeah, he's a remarkable man and he's a truth teller. And he said, you know, Dr. Haim needs help. So I'm reading through the article with Rufo on the phone and I'm actually on vacation with my boys at the time. And it was just absolutely sickening. And I was a patient at Texas Children's Hospital and I have babies that were born there and I felt betrayed. I mean, it was just absolutely infuriating. You know, the mama bear comes out and so I said, you know, "Mr. Rufo, we gotta think about this." So I just started my law firm. There's a number of people who'd left major law firms and met left senior executive government positions to work at a law firm specifically. So we could take cases that our previous employers would never let us take because you can no longer take cases like this in the major corporate law firms. And so it was a real test of the- - Can we stop for a second there? What? What do you mean that you can no longer take cases like this? I mean this, I mean this is like, this is a case if nothing else. It's a case where a, the biggest children's hospital in the world claimed to be not doing a thing, which in and of itself is at least a tacit admission that they shouldn't have been 'cause they could have also just come out and said, vociferously, we need to do this. We need to, we're going to fight the state in their claims because this is essential. They didn't do that, right? They said, oh no, we're shutting this down. So they didn't like go to the mat on this. They claim to shut it down and then kept doing it secretly. No major law firm would take this? - [Marcella] Most major law firms. - I mean the journalists obviously won't. - They would, it could violate their DE and I protocol or policies. Most major law firms require you to use your pronouns, even if as a Christian or a Jew, that would force you to bear false witness potentially, or bear false witness to a regime that you don't assign to. And so these, a lot of these law firms, there just isn't recourse. And so that's what I mean by that. That and also the major law firms will take the cases. So for example, the house bill that was passed in Texas that made this criminal and banned these operations in Texas is being challenged by the ACLU. And the major law firm, Baker Botts out of Houston is representing the ACLU in that case. And so you have the major Texas law firms representing the ACLU, representing the surgeons, representing the hospitals in these cases. And so the best and brightest lawyers who work really hard to get the clerkships and the credentials to get the jobs at the top law firms can't take these cases. And so we started a law firm to represent mostly oil and gas clients because in my practice, I was told by my- - Okay, yeah. - That I couldn't represent oil companies. - Well, so you're a science denier on multiple fronts. - So but I'm, I do chemicals, I do trucking, I do oil and gas, I do fracking, I do glass, I do cement. I mean, I do industrial stuff and I'd experienced that in my practice. And so, but there's a number of other attorneys across the country. We have offices in Houston, Austin, Los Angeles, and Washington DC and we take all kinds of cases that we couldn't take even corporate cases. And when this case came across my desk, and I'm talking to Chris Rufo and I'm on vacation with my children, it just struck a nerve. It just struck a nerve. And I told him, I want to take the case. I'm not the right lawyer to be the one arguing in court and all this stuff. Let me call my guys and see what we can do. And I called Jeff Hall, who was at Department of Justice and Senior Service, a tremendous lawyer, all the Ivy League schools, all the fancy credentials. And he gave up really tremendous opportunities in private practice. And I called him up and he said, "No, I want to take this case." So we have excellent, we have built a team of lawyers to take this case. - I want to drill deeper into this challenge, the legal challenge of the rights of parents and adults and children. So I'm very Libertarian minded. Earlier today, we had Eric July on the show talking about all kinds of stuff going out to the edges of what, of distaste for state involvement in things. But even like fairly Libertarian people will say, look, my philosophy is for adults. When you're kids, you don't have informed consent, you're not fully developed. You can't fight in the military, you can't vote. If you're 11 or 12, you're still like a lunatic. So we can't treat you like an adult. But you have parents, hopefully, they are your guardian. They are paying all the bills and it's their responsibility and they brought you into the world so they've accepted the responsibility for you. But this is thorny stuff, right? Because sometimes parents are abusive and horrible. And then what are we supposed to do about that? And we have child protective services that's supposed to come in and say, "No, no, no, you can't keep beating your kid." And so on the one, let's take an extreme that like everyone agrees, like if you're, if you get, if you're beating your kid with a baseball bat, when you get home from work drunk, we all see that's child abuse. And in this domain, you guys are saying, and I personally agree, these interventions are closer to that than to a spank for touching the stove when you're four. - Well, in these cases, it's not the parent that's actually inflicting harm. They, it's surgeons who are cutting into these kids. - But it's still the parent that has the consent, right? Isn't that the case? - Endocrinologists too, yeah. - If they have full informed consent. - I'm still saying, yes, you can do this to my kid. - Yeah, it's a public policy issue. In cases like this, abortion would be an example. Like in Texas, historically states that have been against abortion would prosecute the doctors and not the women, not the parents. So it's something similar akin to that where people have been manipulated, people have been coerced, people are very confused for different reasons. They're going to their doctors. At the end of the day, you could have a syndrome where you just want your left arm removed, just take it off. I hate it, and you're not allowed- - It's a very good analogy. And it's one can't remove brought up by others. - [Marcella] You can't remove it. - Really, one of the best analogies is the story of Gypsy Rose, where her mother had, you know, had raised her in a way to not contend with reality, had raised her to this alternate reality that she actually had these diseases that actually she did not have and everyone sees that clearly. - Is this Munchausen syndrome? - Yeah, yeah. - It's clearly child abuse in that case, because she was not raising her child to contend with the proper reality. She was imposing this alternative, harmful, destructive reality and then taking away her possibilities for the future. And there's not much different between her case and what's happening here. - This might be a diversion, but one thing that comes to mind is I had my son circumcised. And that's like a surgical procedure. I watched it, I was like, "Well, I'm gonna do this." And I watched it happen. My wife didn't want me to do that. She was more like, "I don't like this. "I don't like this, this makes me uncomfortable." And we're very like, you know, we are a team, but I said, I'm just gonna, I gotta put my foot down. This is my domain. You gotta let me make the decision on this and I'll just be totally transparent. Like it was both, it was tradition. And it was also like, I feel my son should look like me and my dad and my grandfather and all the men in the Papola family. I don't care. I'm not looking at him. Like I'm just, I'm bringing this up because like, this is an experience a lot of us have. I can feel myself like getting flush even talking about it. And God, I'm- - I feel like I'm in an episode of "The Office." (John laughs) I need to look at the camera and be like, really did you just say that? - It's like, oh, where are we going? Where are we going here? But there are people who think that me getting my son circumcised is absolutely barbaric. And are they wrong? - Yeah, I would say so. - Why? Why is that not in the same spectrum of what we're talking about? - As a Jewish guy, I would say I'm pro circumcision, you know? Of course. (John laughs) No, I mean it's two different galaxies, of course, right? - Just like, humor me here. Why is that so different? - I would say the extent, and then the reason, I mean, it's like a little tissue. We've been doing it for generations. - Is it about functionality? It's like this is not impeding anything. - Yeah, but see there- - And arguably healthy and beneficial maybe? I don't know. I haven't done a deep dive into it. - Yeah, no. But there are pathological risks of having the foreskin in terms of constriction and where you might need surgical procedures to release that constriction. I forget what the name is. It's where the foreskin gets too tight around it and the blood flow can't get beyond. And I can't recall, but. - Yeah. - Good thing I have four boys. - Yeah. - Yeah. So you got all this stuff going. - Useful information. - So something happens in the summer that takes this to a different place. What happened? - Yeah, so it goes back to what Marcella was talking about, how she got that phone call. So after the story first came out on May 16th, after that I'm anonymous and yeah, that was towards the end of my surgical training. So my graduation was scheduled on June 23rd, 2023. And it's a Friday. And the ceremony's later that night, my family's in town. I'm about to meet with them. And it's important for people to know, like your graduation from surgical training is one of the most important days of your life because you spend, you know, you sacrifice so much of yourself during the past five years that the day you graduate's a big deal because you- - How long would you say your average week was during your residency? As far as hours worked? - I was a lot. It was a lot. You sacrifice a lot. A lot. And not a lot of time, a lot of time. But, you know, emotional energy, it's, but you gain the responsibility of being a surgeon or you know, whatever other specialties. And it's all worth it for that reason. So I had, it was around like maybe like 11, 12 in the, you know, early afternoon and we're getting ready and all of a sudden we get an aggressive knock on the door and I'm like, man, who is this? Like, that's weird. And you know, I stumble over, I'm wearing some stupid T-shirt and I wish I was wearing something different, but open the door and standing outside are two federal agents, you know, they say they're with Health and Human Services. They show me their badges and that they're investigating a case regarding medical records. And you know, I knew, it was like a combination of shock, like absolute shock. And then, you know, I knew exactly what they were there about. So, you know, of course, because- - How were they dressed? - Oh, like button down khakis. - Okay. - Yeah. - So they weren't like one of these weird federal agents where like there's all these agencies that have all guns and ammo and it's like, why does the Health and Human Services have guns and ammo exactly? So they weren't in like, jackboots though? - No, no, they look like, you know, button down khakis. - Just normal bureaucrat? - Yeah. - We have had whistleblowers call us and say the FBI's come to their home in gear over the same issue. - Yeah. - Who? - But not in this case. - Like full on SWAT style. - Yeah, in this case, just button down khakis. - Okay. - And you know, of course you freak out, you start making bad decisions. So yeah, I invite 'em in. We sit down. But once we sit down, my wife was- - [John] Did they have a warrant or anything like this? Was there some kind of like, what's their right to come to knock to your door? - No, well, you know, I had invited 'em in. - [John] Okay. - Just because we were sitting in the door, I felt awkward, you know? - Yeah. - I was like, alright. - [John] But they didn't present like, we have a warrant to search or anything like this? - No, no, no. It was, so I have invited in and then we sit down and then my wife is an attorney. She's brilliant, but she was getting ready, so she comes out from taking a shower and then, you know, she sits down at the table and they were just about to start the interview and she pulls me aside and, you know, we're talking. - They had cameras. - Yeah, we both knew. - What do you mean? Like, pull out and set up a little camera or iPhone or something? - They had like a little tripod thing. I don't know, what it's called, but they- - It's like a deposition. - Yeah, yeah. And you know, we go back to our bedroom, close the door, and we both were like, not gonna happen, bad idea. So we go out, we insist, you know, we would like to have an attorney present if we talk to you. And then they're like, "Oh, okay, no problem." So then they give us a target letter and a target letter, you know, is this piece of paper. And it stated that I was a potential target of a criminal investigation. And it was signed by a assistant US attorney in the Southern District of Texas. We knew exactly what it was about. And then they leave. So of course afterwards, after that door closes, you know, our whole lives have changed. - And just to be clear, 'cause I don't understand how all of this works, that person, that district attorney, they're a federal employee, is that what that is? Is that right? - United States Attorney, federal employee of the Department of Justice. - Okay. - Yeah. - [John] So they're in Texas, but they're a federal. - Federal crime. - They're a fed. - Federal crime. - Alright. Does it say the grounds? Does it say what the crime, potential crime was? - It did not. - Is that how that works? - So in these situations, what it could mean, it could mean lots of different things, but it could mean they have reason to believe there could be probable cause that a crime was committed. And so they want to investigate whether they can find probable cause, which would then get them a warrant, which could then hold someone for arrest, hold 'em for trial, for a possible violation of the law. And so they could set up what's called a grand jury, and they could have an investigation and present the grand jury with information from which they could get that probable cause to get a warrant or to issue an indictment for a crime. And so what the target letter does, you're either a, you could be a target of an investigation, you could be the subject of investigation, you could be the witness in an investigation. They could also just send a request for information. You know, we've had clients call us, say, "We've got this letter with this eagle emblem on it. "It says it's from Washington, "and they want this document, what does that mean?" It could be, well, they're just looking for evidence for something, for a grand jury investigation for someone else. So there's different levels of engagement when you get these letters from the Department of Justice. His letter said that he was a target so unambiguously that they were looking to achieve- - To charge him. - Probable cause to charge him with a federal crime. But the letter was very brief. - And of course this was a few hours before my graduation. - Before his graduation. - Before I was meeting my parents. So they had chosen this day for a very specific reason. I mean, that's my opinion, that they had chosen that day, that time for the reason to intimidate. - I mean, that sure seems like a pretty cage rattling tactic. Like, the notion that that was accidental doesn't pass the sniff test. - Yeah, they had rattled the wrong cage because they had chosen the wrong target. I mean, their intention was to intimidate. But that was not gonna happen with me. - Okay, so what happens next? And at what point do you, is there more information? And I know there's some things because this is ongoing, so I know there's limits to what you can talk about, and that's part of why Marcella's here to help us navigate this. But is there some point at which you understand like, what they're claiming is the problem? I mean, maybe this is for you, Marcella? - Do you want me to answer this? It's an interesting question, but I'll tell you, I can frame the answer this way. When we got the phone call about the case, most people, if you hear that someone has been being investigated for a crime, the assumption is they did it and- - You mean, do you mean as a lawyer? - Just as a human. - Okay. - And when I got the call being a human, I was like, what did this guy do? I'm not gonna get some dirt bag out of jail, you know? And talking to Rufo and learning more about the case and talking to Dr. Haim, I mean, that's the original, that's the question. I mean, you talk to one another as lawyers and you're like, what's on this guy? Has he committed tax fraud? Has there been some other crime? Has there, is he cheating on his wife? And there's some scandal? I mean, is there some weird thing he's done? I mean, what on earth did this guy do, right? - How did you get the Feds on you? - But we also are living in an age where we just continue to see over and over and over again, the federal government maliciously prosecuting political dissenters for an array of issues. And so there's also that possibility and it's like, could it be that and is performing illegal mutilations on children in that category? I mean, it's just confusing. It's like, is that a political issue now on party lines, really? And so we are having to work that all out as lawyers. And so I'll frame the answer that we've did enough research on Mr. Haim, his family, any possible violation of any possible law based on the information he gave Christopher Rufo. And that was part of Rufo's expose and what was happening at Texas Children's Hospital. Is there any conceivable way this could have violated any possible law? And it was a clear no to where Dr. Haim is so comfortable with that, that although he has been received a target letter, he's comfortable coming forward with the story. - And we knew, you know, I knew there's nothing to it from the very beginning. But of course, you know, it takes time to really be in that state of mind that, you know, like you'll take this story public and pretty much torch your entire life as you knew it in order to stand up for something you believe is right. And I mean, it took, you know, it takes a lot to get to that point. But when you reach the conclusion that you're being investigated for a political ideology because you told the truth, then there's no other option. Because if you stay silent, then you're gonna get destroyed. And we've seen it more over the past three years. These people who become targets for their political ideology, their innocence is not their best defense, right? Their innocence and because they were virtuous, those are the very reasons they're being investigated in the first place. It's because they told the truth, because they were virtuous. - (sighs) It's like a lot to try to process that this of all things. - Yeah. - It's hard to believe that that's the country we live in. - Well- - But people have to understand that that's the truth, that we have to contend with that. And if you don't, it's, you know, it's gonna come for you one day. I mean, that's a reality for it. If you believe in truth, if you believe in virtue, then you're on the opposite side of this political ideology, so. - And you have to play the hand you're dealt. So we have to live in reality and it takes a number of different people and skills to address a cultural problem like this. And in this case, it's also a huge legal problem. I mean, just the list of causes of action that are like racking up in any lawyer's brain hearing stories like this. And so, but then also knowing what law firms can take them and then what law firms have the lawyers capable of taking them, and what law firms have lawyers who are also willing to experience the political risk themselves for being exposed, for taking a case like this. It's just a lot of factors working against someone like Dr. Haim. And at one point he had said something or Christopher Rufo had said something along the lines of, if not you, then who? And it just occurred to me as one of these moments you hear that, you know, when you're listening to like the commercials from the Marines or something, you know? - [John] Right. - And it's like, be all that you can be and why did you go to law school? And I just, you know, luckily work with lawyers who see the profession as a way to help truly protect the rule of law and protect civilization in some ways because these issues are civilizational issues. And because they're so touchy for so many different reasons, we're just letting the one side of the story prevail and it's harmful. - So I mean, the thing that is just so shocking, I think, and this has become incredibly politicized and is why I frankly have avoided talking about this subject on this show and on our YouTube channel, is because of how like bombastic it is. In private, I have my feelings and, but what's so shocking is this is really fringe stuff, right? Like, how many procedures are we talking about at the, this is the biggest children's hospital, right? And there are people out there who have been vocal advocates for, you know, or vocal opponents to gender related transition and have thrown numbers around that, you know, maybe upon closer inspection are a little inflated, which doesn't help the cause if that, if what you wanna do is say, this shouldn't be happening to, so I wanna be, I'm very sensitive to that, you know? Do you have a sense of the scale of the problem? I mean, one kid being sterilized under false pretenses is enough that, especially the way we treat other acts of violence against people that are vulnerable in this country. There are a lot of instances where one vulnerable kid or a handful causes the entire nation to be up at arms for weeks or months. So this is all, and this is all fair game for that. But what are we talking about here? Hundreds, thousands? What do we know? - Yeah, I think that a good way to think about it is how many of these kids do you see in like your children's classes who are identifying in this different way and then are gonna be shipped into these clinics and started down this path? It's a lot. I mean, I couldn't give you an exact number because you know, in- - You didn't go through and like do an exhaustive. - Yeah, and make that. Yeah, so because I haven't done that, it's like, it would be irresponsible for me to give you like an exact number, but it's probably a lot. - I have some numbers. One anecdotal was in Austin at dinner last night, a friend brought up at their child's school, over three quarters of the children identify as transgender, Austin, Texas. Now whether or not they're receiving some sort of treatment is another question, but- - Well, I mean, again, just to go back to those stats. 23% of Gen Z claim to be LGBTQ. - Yes sir. - I think, and I've seen numbers even higher than that depending on the age range. - But if there's clinics in every major city or every major state even, and they can see hundreds of patients a year, that could be tens of thousands a year, a vast number of children. And it's very secret. Texas Children's Hospital does not have this on their website and makes public statements that they weren't doing these things. And so we don't know the full extent. We are seeing lawsuits pop up across the country from de-transitioners. And so that's giving us an indication. But the more people who speak out, the more people who file lawsuits, the more we'll end up learning about this. And if the federal government, the Department of Justice will investigate this maybe in another administration or if the State Attorney Generals will investigate their hospitals, they can learn easily whether they have these clinics, how many patients and what exactly is going on in there. - The thing that I think I can't quite get my head around, and I say this honestly, is how is this like a winning issue? - It's not. - Like I don't, I mean- - It's not. The reckoning has come, the reckoning is here, this behavior's illegal. It's clearly illegal, they've miscalculated and- - But why go out on this limb as a, there's so much stuff that any president left or right, Democrat, Republican has to deal with and that impact millions and millions of Americans. And here you have this scenario where the, so I have somebody who I consider a real friend, Deirdre McCloskey, who's a transgender economist, you know? Hardcore free market economist, sort of beloved among free marketeers, formerly Donald. I've had lots of conversations with Deirdre about this issue because when I was seeing some of this stuff start to happen in my, in terms of the messaging with my son back in 2019 at his school actually went to Freedom Fest in Las Vegas, you know, the wacky misfit toys of, you know, Libertarians to, and I saw Deirdre there, I said, "Deirdre, can you help me understand like, what is this?" And and Deirdre said that Deidre believed that it was like 0.002% of the population suffer from like a persistent gender dysphoria that survives into adulthood and that it was almost entirely men. It was almost entirely boys that that historically, and that the people that study this, it's entirely, like that is a thing. It is super, super rare. Just like people who can't be comfortable with the fact that they have an arm and won't be satisfied until they cut it off. And it's like, that is a tragedy, frankly. It's a thing, but it exists. To go from that world, not just to a world where double digits of our girls, like Abigail Shrier's talked about this in her book, are now saying that this is happening to them right at that time where their bodies get really uncomfortable to go then to this step where the Federal Government's Department of Justice thinks that it should shake down a Texas doctor and that that's in their interest politically to do that because it'll win 0.002%. Like, it's not 0.02%. This is in the news all the time. - [John] You know- - People take to the streets about this. - I think it's, I think it's- - But it's like, I can't do the math on this. - It is crazy. It is in their interest politically because you can't have whistleblowers speak out because when you have average doctors or nurses who begin blowing the whistle on these hospitals, then the whole edifice will crumble. - So this is about making you into a statement for everyone else to shut the hell up and keep doing what you're doing. - Exactly and, but it works. It works unless we win and that's what we have to do. We have to make sure that hospitals and doctors can be held accountable. There has to be a mechanism because if this is allowed to happen, then there will be no doctor, no nurse who is gonna be willing to blow the whistle because they know they're gonna be targeted by the most powerful federal leviathan in human history. Because that's what's happening to me. - In America, you can cease to be able to practice medicine, right? You can have your license revoked and this creates this thing. I'm not a fan of any of this and actually, and like medical licensure I think should be eliminated, frankly, and actually people don't understand this, but because I am a wonk, so I know some of these things, this is in medicine, this is like public policy, but I know that like, yes, you need to be, you need to be licensed by the state to be a doctor, but you don't get like an additional license to be a neurosurgeon. That's board certification, which is not the same thing. And so people think, well, how will we have good doctors if we don't have licensure? But except that like a lot of other, and things that are almost more important than that kind of low bar really matter a lot. And so they go and get cancer treatment and there's no additional federal stuff to for that or state stuff in this case I think. But this is this really powerful thing to squeeze, to keep a doctor silent, right? You will lose your license, your livelihood, your decade of additional schooling beyond undergrad if you don't just shut up and do what we say, right? Am I misrepresenting that? Am I stating that too forcefully? - No, I mean, if I don't do something now, I mean there's gonna be no, what world, I don't have any kids yet, but what world would I deliver to my future children if we don't take the steps necessary to protect our profession, protect our country? It's not really that much of a gamble when you think about it. When you think what's at stake. And that's the conclusion that we came to. It's really not that much for me to do this because if I don't, then I'm just ensuring that my children will have to take that fight and it's gonna be way worse once they get to the position where I'm in. - What is at risk for you now? - Everything, everything. - I understand that the hospital that you're at is supporting you. And so you don't have, you don't, you don't have like zombie DEI bureaucrats, you know, lining up to slit your throat behind you. - [Eithan] Yeah, I wouldn't wanna speak for the hospital. - I'm sorry for the histrionics, that I apologize. - Yeah. - I'm trying to avoid my inclination towards colorful here, but. (laughs) - Yeah, I don't want to speak for the hospital. I'll just say that the people I work with are very, very good people. - Will you ever be able to work anywhere else in this medical system that we have? I have nephews that are going through medical school right now whose names I will definitely not share and who have told me over like Christmas, like, "Oh yeah, it's all super woke and it's all crazy." And they're like, they were raised to not be into that stuff. They haven't had their minds warped by going through school so far, but they, and we hear all these stories that across the entire country that medicine has been infected by a worldview that has nothing to do with science that is entirely ideological. - We saw it in COVID. - Absolutely. There's nothing scientific about the way COVID transpired. - [Eithan] Yeah, we all live on campus now, right? - Well, Fauci just admitted that the whole six foot distancing thing was just completely made up. - It was BS. It's 12 feet minimum. They knew that that wouldn't fly, so they just made up a lower number. And so it's like, so they're willing, the medical institutions, and again, my bias is not in this way, it's not. Like I have a surgeon doc, a surgeon for a father. Everywhere you hit, you know? Italian immigrant family gonna be a doctor or a lawyer. That's what, that's the thing. That's what you're gonna do. I didn't wanna do it. But otherwise everywhere, you know, everywhere you go. - You went into podcasting, it worked out. (laughs) - But resisting this juggernaut of cultural transformation, cultural revolution, happening inside the medical establishment from med school into the largest children's hospital in the world, what is it gonna take? Is it just that this is all just gonna collapse under its own weight? Do we have to sue these people out of existence? Maybe Marcella, I mean you're, you've been in the public policy space, you know, you were, what was your role at the EPA? - Deputy General Counsel. - Yeah. So you were in the Trump administration, so everybody can be like, you're evil that doesn't like that. So people can take that for what it is. - Apparently I have a thing for controversial clients, but you know, I think a good lawyer is willing to take a tough case and represent a tough client. - So how, you said you're in energy stuff, you're taking this out of principle in a way because you feel like this, who else is gonna take it if not us? Where do we go from here? Like what is the path back to sanity and back to protecting our kids? You know, it's one thing to talk about what adults do with and to themselves, but kids is a different ballgame altogether. - Yeah, we got it's a different standard. - Right? - That's it. - Well, you gotta do things like talk on podcasts that appeal to parents. Tell the story. - I mean, is public awareness the biggest thing right now that matters for this? I mean, obviously you're coming out here. - There has to be not only like in my case specifically, there has to be defense in order to establish a precedent to make sure that this can't happen again. That the federal government cannot target whistleblowers because it threatens their political ideology. But that's meaningless unless we go on the offensive against those who have abused their authority. Because if we don't, then these people will continue to do so. And that's an important thing for people to understand. That's what needs to happen. It can't just be defense. We have to actively make gains. - As we start to wrap up, I want to talk, I wanted to open the aperture to the medical system and get your take on it as a new, as a young doctor entering into this space. So when I was from age two to 10, I lived in Upper Darby, Pennsylvania, just outside of Philly. And we lived in the top floor of a little, little house, the bottom floor of which was my grandfather's doctor's office. And, you know, he'd see patients and they'd come in, they'd pay cash. They'd pay less than a current copay adjusted for inflation to spend more time with my grandfather than anybody spends with an actual doctor today when they go into a hospital. Except for really, you know, serious cases where you gotta really have with a lot of time. My whole family feels like the medical profession has like, gone down the toilet as in terms of the experience with engagement with the system, with the amount of time that doctors can spend with patients, with the extent to which giant hospitals like Texas Children's Hospital have gobbled up every private practice and turned every doctor into an employee. And I was talking to my dad about this. Pardon, pardon as I go off on a little, a little rant, but I was talking to my dad about this recently and I said, do you, is this because the doctors just kinda make bad business people? Like they're not great almost constitutionally at running their business? Is it about the federalization of all of this? And you just need to have so much overhead that it's just like, how can you deal with having five administrative support people just to run down Medicare and Medicaid, make sure the codes are right and insurance and all of that. Like, it's just all weighted with bureaucracy and compliance and in many places like Pennsylvania, tort worries and massive malpractice insurance. I mean, what is your take? My take's not that great on American medicine. - You know, the one thing I will say, just in Texas Children's defense, I mean they really are one of the best hospitals in the world. And you know, it's this kind of fringe group that had, I think taken away from its original mission. But really, you know, and really working there was, I mean it's phenomenal because like you do the biggest surgeries, you take care of the sickest people and the doctors there are phenomenal, the nurses there are amazing. - [John] That's good to know. - And it really is, in terms of your experience working there, it's great. It's amazing. And so there's still good things. I mean, you know, it's a amazing place. So there are these negative sides to it, but I mean, that's kind of the world we live in. I mean, it's complicated, you know, working in these complex medical systems, you have to document, you know, it takes time. But like, I always make the, you always have to make the priority of talking to people and you know, doctors complain a lot, that's for sure. But we have to remember, we have the best profession in my opinion, ever. I mean, it's like going to work every day is, it's the best thing I could ever do. I mean, it's amazing to go to work and love what you do, but you have to, you have to prioritize the important things in your job and you just gotta deal with it. I mean, yeah, it's going to be a little, you know, you will be busy and you'll have to do a lot of paperwork, but at the end of the day, you have the best job in the world. Suck it up. That's my opinion. That's my opinion. - Fair enough. - I understand, I understand other, sometimes it can get onerous and as a general surgeon, at least in my hospital, it's not that bad. It's pretty good. The people are great, it's amazing. But in other hospitals I can understand it can get very onerous. At least my experience at the places I've worked at, Texas Children's is great. Phenomenal. The place I work at now, amazing. You have responsibilities and you gotta take care of patients. - It's a good reminder, right? For even for me that, you know, in reality everything's kind of messy and broken all the time. - Yeah. - And there's no like utopia we get to go to. - Yeah, there's no perfect way to get the medical system. It's gonna be like complex and messy and you're gonna have to write notes and you're gonna hate writing notes, but you have to do it. You have to document what you do because that's just the nature of it. - In horrendous handwriting. - And the insurance companies, it's gonna be complicated and some people are gonna get screwed and some people may not or, but that's, it's complicated. It's like a complex system, and yeah. - We still live in the country with the best medical system in the world and with the best doctors in the world and with the best resources in the world and the best people in the world and the most opportunity in the world. And it's still an amazing place. And we have amazing technological advances here. I think though that what can we do to alter, to engage in this beyond the legal remedies and to stand up when you see something really horrific? Is just as a parent, when you have that feeling that someone's saying something about your kid is absolutely horrifying, like, this can't be right. Like, listen to your gut. I remember having my first baby and I wanted to go to the hospital every single time that baby cried long enough where I couldn't get him to stop. - [John] Oh, I know all about it. - And I just remember my doctor would say, you know, "Just Marcella, just take a step back. "Look at the child. Does he need to go to the hospital?" You know? And so just listen to your gut, you'll figure it out. You're the parent and you'll know what to do. And so that would be the advice. The unsolicited advice that I can't help but give, 'cause I'm a lawyer, to parents, is that listen to your kids. And like Dr. Haim said, there's a third solution, which is you're perfect just the way you are. And it's the old, it's just Mr. Rogers adage, I love you just the way you are. Let's just give this some time. Let's just give this some time. And when a doctor looks you in the eyes and you can tell you're being bullied, gaslit or coerced, you know what that feels like. You've had, everybody's had a boss that tried to gaslight you. Everyone's had a neighbor who's coercing you about what the property line is. I mean, everybody knows what it is to be bullied. You just don't get bullied and you don't let people touch your kid and get a second opinion, get a third opinion. Don't listen to the first person that tells you. And so I think that that's something we can do too, is just parents can just remember that you're parents and you live in a country where it's your parental rights are here at stake here. And you don't live in a country where the government owns your kids and the hospital can't do anything without your consent. And so step up and say no. And that'd be my message to dads. A lot of dads don't wanna get involved in their kids' healthcare. It becomes like relegated to the mom. And we've gotten, we've heard from men who feel like this is happening, there's a divorce. - Yeah. - And the mom is doing this and what rights does the dad have? And that's a great conversation to have. There's a lot of rights and there's a lot of ways that you as a dad and as a man can defend your kid. And so that's something I would say too, just as a sort of non sequitur on the show. - No, I think that that cuts to the very heart of why I wanted to have you all on, because I think that we see these stories and in this case, and I mean this has the echoes of like, of Dr. Mengele, you know? - Kermit Gosnell. - It's like the angel of death in Nazi Germany. I'm sorry if that's hyperbolic, but if you're experimenting on people for whom consent has not been given, you are, that's the realm you're in now. You're in the realm of playing God. And doctors can be inclined to play God and to, because you are, you're holding life in your hands, right? I mean you can, I'd be curious, how do you think about that? This is obviously like kind of a pop culturey thing to say that like doctors think they play God. Like, do you think that some of, like you look at the, you look at the docs that are performing this stuff and it's like, what's going on with these people? - You know, I think that people, and especially doctors have a tendency to believe they have evolved beyond the human tendency towards fallacy. That we will always make mistakes. We will always have misjudgments. - The philosopher kings. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, especially if there's no traditional belief system, you know, no moral value that they had grown up with, there's just a void in their life. And that void's gonna be filled with something. And in this case, I believe that void is filled with something very, very bad. So when you don't have any restrictions, when there's no guardrails that anything's possible, anything's justified. And when you're a doctor, you have that power because you can actually do things to people 'cause when they're sitting across from you in the clinic room, you know, everything else fades away, you're gonna listen to that person. And if there's no restraints, then that gives people an ability to feel like they're a god if there is no restraining principles or virtues. - As we wrap up, are you optimistic or pessimistic about where we're heading with this issue, but also in our country? Like, this isn't just a narrow issue. This is obviously a big cultural conversation that's been in the news and in movies and gosh, I just saw this clip from a Netflix show aimed at two year olds where they've got a little boy putting on a tutu dancing around and, you know, (sighs) I'm embracing myself and thinking like, what? Where are we heading? Is this sacrifices to Moloch going on? Is that where we're at? Like, is this, we're descending? - You know, I think that maybe not necessarily be the right question, right? Optimism and pessimistic. - I mean, some boys also, it's fun to wear a tutu. - Yeah. - And like, if your 2-year-old boy wants to wear a tutu, okay? And that doesn't mean your 2-year-old is gay or a girl, it means your two year old's two and wants to have fun with a tutu. - Right. - I know you're being hyperbolic here. - Absolutely, I am. - But you know, we don't wanna take those opportunities and exploit these children and there's a lot of people doing just that, you know? - Yeah. - But we'll, you know, but I just wanted to, in fairness say that we're not here saying like, if a boy wears a tutu, you know? No, it's just a common sense approach. And I think that I'm very optimistic, I'm very optimistic on this issue. I think that in some ways we're getting to be post DEI, post woke, post, we just can't speak up anymore. And it's cases like this where the government really has overreached. Some of these institutions really have overreached and there's going to be pushback. This is not the only case. There's many cases across the country and there's definitely many more of de-transitioners. And so I think that that's very clear. What we need to be is vigilant. We need to make sure they don't try to change federal laws, maybe change HIPAA. So doctors can't say anything about any patient ever to obviate whistle blowing. Can't let that happen. We also have to make sure that they don't try to make the next stage in consent for children is a pedophilia. Well, if you can have a child change their sex, well, can't the child choose a sexual partner? I mean, there's lots of slippery slopes here that we need to- - That's an interesting and dark well jump to make. But it doesn't, I got, I'm processing that for a second. - Well, lawyers see things in legal trends too, so you just have to put your foot down at some point. You know, and it's funny, I never thought I'd take this a case like this, but at some point it's like- - Stick to commercial grade concrete issues. - Yes, I will continue to sue the EPA every day, you know, but no, you have to stand up a thwart what's happening. And Flannery O'Connor said, "Push back against a culture that pushes against you." And that's a great, I think message for dads is, you know, push back. Sometimes the best advice you can give your kid on the playground is, "Hey, why don't you push the kid back?" You know, don't take that. Dads like, push back a little bit. - Spoken like a mom of four boys. (Eithan laughs) - Brilliant point though. It's true. Yeah. You gotta push back at sometimes - I think it's just, it's just human nature. It's natural law. - Yeah. - It's whatever you wanna call it. You know, we just need to stand up to bullies. - Yeah. - Stand up to bullies. Stand up to real bullies. And you know, I love it. It's just you see it over and over again, but we're, you know, people can be accused of what they are doing themselves. So like, they're accusing you. They're saying you're a bully and it's just like gaslighting. It's like, no, you're the bully. The bully's saying that the victim is the bully. - Yeah, they're just- - It's narcissist projection. - They're just accusing others of their most conspicuous crimes. - 100%. So here, you know what we're gonna do, guys? We're just gonna live in reality, we're gonna ignore this like bullying and gaslighting. I'm the parent and the answer's no. And by the way, nice try. I'm calling a lawyer. - You know, you remind me of something that's really important in all of this, which is in my understanding is that in a majority of these cases, and maybe that's not right, and I will be corrected, but my understanding is that in a majority of these cases of people claiming gender dysphoric experience, that there is other things going on, the most likely thing going on is that they're gay. That they're gay, they're gay. And so to medically intervene on someone who's gay, to take that from being I'm gonna be a gay man or a gay woman or a lesbian to, I'm gonna become something else and not go there. I don't see how that's a, I don't see how that's good from through the lens of gay rights. - I would say that's probably a bad idea. - Some of the, some of the- - Really some of the odds, like the grouping together of all of these things into an alphabet soup. And I know there are, and I've spoken to friends and to family members who are gay who are like, this is not, we're, we don't want to be, we don't wanna be part of this part. This is not, this is something else. And frankly, it's kind of an assault on us and there's, and that makes this whole conversation way more complicated. And when you think about what our kids are going through and let nature take its course and do your best to try to raise 'em right. I mean, I don't know what's more important than that. I mean, Doc, you know, take like wrap us out here. - Yeah. I think that the most important thing is you understand that there's a principle of limited understanding in your children. So you have to have them contend with reality so that they can grow up into an adult who can face the problems that they will inevitably face. And to teach 'em not to just take a pillar or something else, or adopt an identity that's gonna try to bypass those problems. But you have to confront these problems head on. There's no other way around it. And through the process of confronting those problems, you'll become a better person. You'll become stronger, you'll become wiser. And that would, that's what will give you meaning in life and happiness. And you'll be able to find someone and have a family and love and care about those around you. And like, there's this great ability to live on the other side. Like, they just don't have to do what they're doing and adopt this path where that's, you know, I mean it's really just based off hatred of their true selves and it's the saddest thing in the world. - One of the things that Dr. Haim's been telling me, it's just like how amazing it's been to see the people that have risen up to help him. And so this is like, he has seen the worst types of people in the country that are after him for this. So he's seen the worst of humanity, but he is also seen the best of humanity. - [Eithan] Yeah. - And like the stories he tells me of people that reach out and on our give and on our Gifts & Go page that he has fundraised $76,000 in like $10 donations because of Chris Rufo's story and the comments people write with their first full front last name about the emails I'm getting through the law firm website from doctors, lawyers and just people around the country thinking saying, can you please send this message to your client for me? - Yeah. - I mean it is. - You know, people think that when you do something like this, you're gonna go to this other side, like you're gonna cross this, you know, this Rubicon, and you're gonna go into this world where you're gonna get destroyed. It's gonna be like pitch black. No one's gonna be out there for you and it's terrifying. But what I realized is that when you do step out into that world, you discover this entirely different one where there's millions of the best people possible who are willing to sacrifice something meaningful for a cause worth fighting for. And that's absolutely amazing. And that's what we're seeing now because we know that, you know, we need, financial support to help fight this battle. And that's why the people who've donated on Gifts & Go is so meaningful, but it's the emotional support and those people who've been like, you know, whatever we need to do, we'll help out. And that it's the the greatest thing I've seen so far. It's, there's no words to describe what that feels like. - I ask this question of every guest, Marcella, I'll start with you. You know, it's called "Dad Saves America." I love the country, I care about the country a lot for all its problems. How do you see your role in the American story? - As a mom and a lawyer, there's different roles I would play. As a mom, we take really seriously in our house teaching the boys about what it means to be an American. They all know the words to "Born in the USA," thank you, "The Star-Spangled Banner." We keep track of virtue points and patriotism's a virtue, and they get rewarded for patriotism. And we're really proud to be Americans and we teach our kids about that. And that's a legacy thing. And the other thing I am is a, you know, besides being a mom and teaching my boys how to be men and how to love one another and all those things, as a lawyer, the role of a lawyer in society, it's a huge, it's a noble vocation. And same with being a doctor, it's a vocation. And what's happened to the professions, I think is a serious problem in our country. And what's happening in the medical profession is a serious problem. What's happening in the legal profession is a serious problem. I mean, there's entire organizations built to try to get lawyers like me disbarred just for taking these cases. I mean, there's a true opposition, right? For anyone to take these cases, and so- - We're so far away from the world where the ACLU would defend Nazis walking down the street. It like the notion that the fundamental nature of our legal reality is contention in contentious issues and doing battle in that battle of ideas and battle of the law. It's such a asymmetrical thing you're talking about to say, no, no, no, we're actually gonna make sure you can't do that. - Yeah, but the role of lawyer, I mean, what's my role in all this is when you take a oath to defend the constitution, you take a oath to zealously represent your client. And I take that very seriously and you know, or you hope, I think that you're gonna be able to take one of these big cases one day and that you can, it's a legacy case and you want to be able to tell your grandkids, what'd you do when all that was happening? And so, and you want 'em, you know, it's just a legacy thing. What was your role as a lawyer in society when all this was happening, Grandma? You know? And so it's not like taking the cases, also building a law firm where other lawyers can come. I sent a screenshot to my legal team today of my inbox this morning when I woke up and it was maybe 22 emails. You can see you're 20 and like 16 of them, the subject line was like, people wanting to leave their law firm to join our law firm. - Wow. - And I just did a screenshot and I can't tell you the amount. And so if you've been calling me and I'm not answering, it's not because we're not interested, it's because there's so many people calling and there's also clients calling us saying, why do I hire lawyers that hate me? And why do I hire lawyers that hate my values? You don't have to do that and so institutionally the law firm I've built and other lawyers like me are building is places where you can hire lawyers that don't hate you and that don't hate your business. And so that's a legacy for me too. I hope to build this law firm and in a model that others can replicate so that way you can trust the institution of the law and that there can be lawyers in this country that are promoting the rule of law. I mean, this is a rule of law case. This is a crime and punishment case. This is not a complicated legal case. It's not, there's not a thorny legal issue here at all. This is a straightforward case. And so, you know, lawyers take the rule of law in cut and dry cases. And so anyway, that's how I see my role as a mom and as a lawyer to defend and perpetuate the legacy of the country. - [John] Doctor? - Yeah, so the question was how do you see your role in? - In the story of this country. - You know, really the most important thing in my life and the way I see myself is that is as a doctor, as a surgeon, I take care of people because those relationships are the ones that are most meaningful. It's that, and then my family, those are the two most important things for me. I wanna take care of my patients. I wanna take care of my family. - How does that ladder up to the country? Just wax philosophical for me, you know? - You know, when you- - I know you care about this because you wouldn't come out the way you are if you didn't. - When you, it's those small daily interactions that have a big impact and when you're able to demonstrate values on a daily basis, then everyone doing that can create a country that's better. But I would say, I mean, it's the same thing too. This me doing this, I mean, you know, I am in the same way. You know, you have to protect your patients. I have to do this to protect my patients. - So Doctor, Marcella, thanks for being on "Dad Saves America" and sharing your story. - Yeah. Thank you. - Thanks. (light music)

Channel: Dad Saves America

Views: 203,415

Keywords: transgender, affirmative care, gender dysphoria, dr. eithan haim, dr. ethan haim, eithan haim, ethan haim, medical ethics, informed consent, trans surgery, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, hormone replacement, medical care, children's health, texas children's hospital, whistleblower

Id: gJdOtjP66KM

Length: 108min 26sec (6506 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 13 2024