Douglas Murray on Why the West Won't Fight for Itself

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you didn't turn out one Saturday for the killing of your co-religionists by Bashar al-assad you didn't spend one weekend outside the Chinese Embassy for the putting into concentration camps of 1 million Muslims in China you didn't turn out in Massacre after massacre in country after country but this country Israel does one thing never mind a war one thing and the streets ered why Shalom and welcome to state of a Nation I'm Alon leevy there's a campaign of violent intimidation a foot to try to make it impossible to speak up for Israel all around the world on streets and campuses and social media Israel is being demonized and Jews and Israelis dehumanized anyone who speaks up for Israel comes under a torrent of abuse and even death threats speaking up for Israel takes thick skin but as I said at a rally in London marking a 100 days of this war people respect you when you stand up for yourself when you stand up to the bullies if anyone knows what it means to stand up to bullies and what the violent anti-israel movement means for cities like London it's today's guest the dashingly Debon AED Douglas Murray Douglas is the number one best-selling author of seven books including the war on the west he's also an associate editor of The Spectator since October 7th he's basically decamped to Israel to report on this war and to share stories and perspectives that tell a different side from what much of the media is showing brutally honest and fearless Douglas stands up to the haters staking out a leading reputation as an Unapologetic Ally of the Jews and a vocal advocate for Israel Douglas joins me here for a fireside chat about what the West gets wrong and where it's going wrong how Israel in fact embodies values that he wants to see his own native England live up to with his trademark wit and rip andash will navigate anti-Semitism media bias and what it means to stand up to bullies because at stake is not only the state of our nation it's the state of the West on with the show Breaking News out of Israel this morning shocking hostage hundreds of Israelis are dead I want to bring in Israeli government spokesman what happens when the how do you resolve this where does this go Douglas Murray welcome to the state of an Nation great to be with you tell me when you were growing up in England going to school at Eaton with the three-piece suit correct and Tails four piece suit because including the top hat they just dropped the top hat they just dropped but you had a top hat I I can't go into my water and a Kane was there a Kane no no can's were dropped then uh but yeah morning dress so morning dress morning dress did you have a hero of the Jewish people on your list of things to be when you grew up um no I don't really think I knew what I was going to be um but uh you know you make choices in life and uh stand up for the things you want to stand up for and you end up where you are is that a description you would agree with now or that the the war has catapulted you to that position of hero of the Jewish people no there are many Heroes of the Jewish people I'm all I do is write and speak do you understand why some people see you for them as being the breakout star if you will of the war who is a hero in some respects I just don't like the word hero I don't think writers should use those sort of terms all the professions all of the things which actually require real heroism firefighters soldiers you know policemen they don't have endless backs slapping about their heroism so I always find it too much when Writers Do even worse than actors do by the way because even when even when it does require a certain amount of courage to speak out on an issue that many people are afraid to make their voice well all you have to do is just not listen to Uh maniacs which is good advice the problem is many of The Maniacs are dangerous sure one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast and have this conversation is that you straddle a very interesting line since the October 7 Massacre you're a journalist it is your job to report you've interviewed the Prime Minister as well but at the same time as a journalist you're choosing to cover Stories the rest of the media isn't covering to focus on certain issues like the Palestinian authori pay for slay scheme that other media are overlooking to bring voices that others aren't looking at and so many people see you as in some ways not only a reporter who's covering Israel but in some ways our voice or one of our voices in the world world does that sound accurate or fair to you I mean I I only have my own voice um and all I can do is to tell the truth as I see it I'm very very pleased when that coincides with other people's you know opinions I'm I'm slightly alarmed to tell the truth um I'm very pleased when I hear the reception I have in Israel and from Jewish communities around the world um but it also slightly saddens me and that's because it sort of seems to me that people feel that they don't have very many allies that's true and if it is the case it's extremely worrying as well as sad and if it isn't the case it's just sad that people feel so alone or at least how few non-jews speak up um and uh so it's both you know enormously humbling and rewarding but also I I think saddening to me because I I mean why wouldn't I why should you be surprised that somebody who's not Jewish sees their point of view it shouldn't be that rare it shouldn't be that rare I mean I mean by comparison think of the number of people who hadn't heard of the hoties until about 10 days ago and already way bang on side you know love the hoties couldn't really couldn't find Yemen on a map and so on but they really have taken that side and people aren't that surprised by that by comparism it seems to be surprising if somebody's on the side of Israel and that's really astonishing because you know over the last year in Israel we had a year of very difficult political polarization felt the whole country had gone mad and then suddenly October 7 happened and we saw people covering up denying hamas's atrocities now in many cases including senior un officials or in fact the whole un mechanism intervening to try to save hamas's skin in the wake of the massacre and it feels that the whole world has gone mad does it look that way to you well I think the world's been mad for years maybe maybe it always was um maybe it always was like that I mean I I said during the co ER to various friends and colleagues I said there's one job in this era which don't go mad and that sounds like quite a simple demand turns out to be much more difficult than I expected well because people derange themselves we live in an era where there's we have we all have a device in our pockets that gives us a bewildering amount of information too much for the human brain coming in too fast the treadmill is going faster than our feet can go and it deranges a lot of people that just fall off and fall into catastrophe but I mean it's not just a question of derangement and people getting distracted by whatever social media is sending them that there seems to be some sort of episode happening in the west right now the mass protest that we are seeing against Israel in favor of the houthis even as they fire at British targets and British ships this total mobilization of parts of society against Israel that lead many people in Israel and around the Jewish world to see is profoundly anti-semitic and not just a question of of anti-israel and and that's because what many people see is that anti-Semitism has historically been a tool through which failing Societies or societies that seek to deflect from their own failures then mobilized themselves around this total ideology of opposition to the Jews and that's how we find that even within the protests around the world we have a clip here from one of the climate protests that Israel seems to play a role in all these other causes it does have something to do with it because I mean several reasons one is the thing you say about uh the nature of anti-Semitism and societies that latch on to it we all know that it's a very very bad sign when a society lurches towards anti-Semitism for lots of reasons one of them is for the society itself it suggests the society is dissolving and degrading into a feverish place um vasle grman one of my favorite writers writes in the middle of life and fate his great epic of the 20th century that um that on his three pages in the center of that 900 page Masterpiece he says um tell me what you accuse the Jews of I'll tell you what you're guilty of um absolutely true absolutely true how is that playing it how's that playing out now do you see well I mean for a lot of people it's working as um look the people you mentioned like the why are the climate people let's have a look we actually have a little clip from Greta tbug who's uh become one of the major Hamas fan girls recently no climate justice clate justice unoccupied unoccupied land climate Justice unoccupied land I mean what are they what are they talking about how has the question of Israel come to claim such a massive role in these people's psyche that it defines not only how they see the Middle East but informs how they view every other struggle in the world well one thing is era of profound stupidity um in which as I've said for many years the adults have left the room an example of the adults leaving the room is the idea that uh a truant school girl from Sweden should dictate Global Climate policy never seemed to me a good idea always seemed to me she should spend more time in school and the fact that so many politicians bowed to her views on I mean I said when she first emerged um people didn't like to criticize her when she first emerged because they said well here's a school girl who's autistic I dare you to criticize her I dare you and I remember saying when she first emerged like what is this game if I found a younger person who was more autistic and adored fossil fuels and I put that person out there would I win okay it was always a trap the Greta thumb thing always a trap now she's of age she she's an adult so and it's easier to criticize how it should be um it's always been a bad sign when things like that happen and yet I feel that it goes deeper than the world has always been mad the world has always been stupid something is happening that but a very specific thing there are times if if if you read an account of some for a time in the Middle Ages where a a young girl with blazing eyes came from a neighboring Village and told you all you were going to burn go well I mean that's a strange sort of thing to happen well here we are in the 2st Century with exactly the same phenomenon it's a very odd thing this whole devolving of expertise um and and and what these people end up with they there one there's an analogy from Japanese culture which is that if you're a warrior for a um a great leader in medieval Japan um and if your leader died you would wander around the land looking for another person to affix your your loyalty to that's what these people are they they they believe uh they believe the Earth Is Burning uh climate emergency climate emergency uh Palestinian emergency this emergency they are desperately desperately searching for things to attach themselves to and there's another point on this which is that these people are doing um politics by just every issue you can always tell somebody hasn't thought deeply about anything when they have completely predictable views on every single issue if you'd have asked me five years ago how do you think Greta thumberg will end up on the Palestinian question I'd have said she'll end up exactly like that because she'll get her politics alakat but the fact that Israel has become this bug bear issue and part of the basket of what it means to be on the left I understand what I don't understand is the obsessive role that it seems to play within the Western imagination and among these people people and how it has become this organizing principle if you will of large parts of society and I'm asking this because as I try to spokesman to try to speak to foreign media and to try to influence public opinion I'm simply at a loss to try to understand what this pardon me psychotic moment is that seems to have overtaken such large parts of the Western World well you can tell one thing by the manner of communication and this is if I can say so quite an important point that manner of communic ation betrays something very interesting that isn't argument is it what they're doing no right what is it it's very performative it's performative what else it's performative it seems impulsive emotional it seems to come from the gut I would say certainly doesn't come from the brain um it's uh it's a different form of communication from for instance the one we're having at the moment we are in involved in dialogue right now and that's what most people I know certainly everyone I respect is able to engage in if I just sat here and said cease fire now or whatever just over and over again you say yeah you said it once I got it why do these people think if they keep bludgeoning people with a stupid predictable ill-informed opinions that we're going to suddenly say ah now I get it we should have a ceasefire or whatever it is I think they're trying to apply political pressure and if you put enough pressure and mobilize enough people then that's how change is made that's what they think that's what they think and they may be right they may be right they may be right that people can be influenced by that form of communication I personally think it's the worst possible form of communication because I don't think it is communication it is a bludgeoning of people with very of people by people who have a very very limited understanding of these things and that is by the way one other giveaway of it if they understood anything about this you wouldn't just keep saying the same thing over and over you wouldn't decide every Saturday to just chant the same banality if the reason they do it is because if you go underneath it as you and I know from the people who go through the protests and ask any follow on question none of the Marchers almost none would be able to answer a f on question so they stick with the boring ill-informed man anra and they hope that they will persuade us by it and I hope that it doesn't work by the way I think if that's anything it's a silver lining that when you see people on the worst chanting in in and everyone gets stressed saying these people are calling for suicide bombings on public transport because that's what the in was in Israel actually the fact that they don't know what an in is they're operating out of out of ignorance rather than malice comforting yeah absolutely I mean that that is a striking thing as well I mean if I was to spend my Saturday chanting for something I'd like to think that I'd know what the word meant you think that would be a a starting place I mean you get these people they they have their banners and then you know somebody says uh you know what does the thing on your banner mean I don't know somebody just gave it to me like what what kind of are you I would you or I spend our time walking around with baners some other guy we've never met gave us why what's wrong with you people so I want to pick your brains about a segment of public opinion in the west that I think actually do know what they're talking about and and that is actually the large um not a majority but certainly noticeable Jewish mobilization against Israel among elements of the ultr progressive left-wing Jewish they're totally unimportant why do you think they're unimportant well because everyone knows they're Maniacs I mean there like quer for Palestine this is okay you know chickens for KFC all that kind of stuff these people are so clearly deluded the people who are doing uh Jews for Palestine at the moment the same people who did kades for Hamas in Parliament square a few years ago remember that we have a little clip actually from the recent protests let's um watch and see on the steps of the foreign office here in London they're chanting not in our name they're Marching for a ceasefire and we see them now again you were saying talking about performative theater here they are wearing all the Jewish religious garments the talet the toilin blowing the shofa the uh Co masks are not traditional uh Jewish garments but they made their way into into here as well the I like the green head one that's that's definitely not a lunatic a regular occurrence and I wonder I mean these people I think do know what they are talking about they're not completely ignorant so what is motivating them to mobilize against Israel when someone like you who is not Jewish comes from the outside does see our side of the story well um look every Community has its lunatics uh I mean I mentioned quer for Palestine I've been saying for a while that quers for Palestine are just the gay notori Carter um uh uh every every Community has their people for suicide okay fine you die uh can't take anyone else with you uh so so yeah everybody has his people as for uh the specific thing of some of the je look you can be an anti- Zionist Jew I mean there are plenty of people and always have been historically who have been um I mean if you read vit's Memoirs uh the the the the the board of deputies in England at the time the foundation of this state were opposed of course to the foundation of the state and very wisely came around a bit no they have they have they have uh uh well the board of deputies is not known for its uh strength on the question of Israel but anyway the point is is simply that there is a there's a trail there is a there is a trail of of of of um skepticism on on this in the diaspora let's say uh okay some of that's understandable certainly was understandable in the past I don't think it's pretty understandable now but okay you do not have to go from I'm a Jew who isn't a Zionist to I'm a Jew who says morning prayers foras like that that's the point when you turn into psychosis these these are sick sick people and U fine we've had them always historically you know the uh the every Jew knows that there have been bad Jews it's not um it's not a surprise to me every Community has bad people in it and evil people and people who wish the rest of the community very very significant harm and which which is disturbing analysis because these people I'm sure would also push back and say that they believe they are acting out of the noblest values they believe they are no one ever says that I know I'm acting from Evil I mean you have to believe you think you're doing good in order to do something wicked um as well as to do something good no I I mean these um I I don't find these Jewish Fringe Fringe figures of any significance I think there are two groups in the west who are significant I think that there is the green bit of the green red Alliance what we saw there uh which the climate movement no not just the climate there a leftist movement okay um the ones who yeah again they they get their politics off the shelf You can predict 100% certainty what the sort of things they'll say before they say them and on the question of the Middle East they will think it's all about Palestinians two states or whatever um those people are a fringe in politics in every country who always have a risk as with with the Democrats in America of becoming slightly more mainstream that's the first part of the anti-israel movement in the west the second and the much more worrying to my mind and the much more difficult to talk about for most people is the Muslim anti-Semitism which is very very hard for Jews or non-jews to identify but it's without question the main driver now the marches the video you saw videos we just saw weren't very representative of them but the marches in London are main Muslim they are Pakistani Muslims and others who arrived in Britain in recent generations and brought the anti-Semitism of their Homeland with them are they still really mainly Muslim marches or are you not seeing a lot of white Britains as well you're seeing a lot yeah yeah yeah seeing a lot but the driver the driver is undoubtedly Muslim communities in the UK Muslim communities in Paris who want to protest there um it's different in different countries but that's the main driver and a a very close enemy of mine Hassan some years ago said in an article something true and that's why I remember it yes I remember he received a lot of push back for this yeah of course he would because his audience expect lies um but he said in this article about 10 years ago he said uh he said the Muslim Community in Britain uh he said anti-Semitism is our Dirty Little Secret he said it's our Dirty Little Secret he said every Muslim reading this will know what I mean it's always there at the dinner table it's always there around the table now I I which was an astonishing moment of honesty to to to no I mean I as I say I credit him for telling the truth for once but he um but he's uh in this in this Revelation he made he confirmed something I've said for years um I mean for instance um if you import a lot of people from I don't know a philosemitic background maybe you'd have a more philosemitic Society not that it's a term I particularly like but if you import a lot of people from an anti-semitic background you'll have a lot more anti-semites in your Society um Germany after the war decided to import a lot of people from turkey and the Middle East and uh North Africa and Germany as a result which wasn't a country that needed a lot more anti-semites has got a lot more anti-semites and they are trying to work out what to do about that and it's not easy because these people are citizens um in Britain we have Hamas leaders who live freely in Britain have' been given British citizenship by the British State and they plot evil and violence against the people of this country now the British government labor and conservative seems to not know what to do about that and that's Hamas leaders so imagine how much more worrying it is for this for the country when they see hundreds of thousands of relatively recent migrants of Muslim background who and this is the other thing they are why are they so feverish why are they so feverish about Israel um I did a very unpleasant sum some years ago a few years into the Syrian Civil War which was if you add up all of the people killed on both sides of every conflict involving Israel from 1948 including the war of independence right up to the present and you include the highest estimated death tolls on not just the side of Israel but on side of Egypt Jordan everyone else you get an average six months killing in Syria over the last decade astonishing right so why would it be that if you are a Pakistani Muslim in London you didn't turn out one Saturday for the killing of your Co religionists by Bashar al- Assad you didn't spend one weekend outside the Chinese Embassy for the putting into concentration camps of 1 million Muslims in China you didn't turn out in Massacre after massacre in country after country but this country Israel does one thing never mind a war one thing and the streets are rubbed why Muslim anti-Semitism is one of the variants of anti-Semitism and is the most prevalent and pushing in our time and it terrifies the leaders of Western democracies because they have brought this into the west and they don't know what to do about it I can understand to some extent Muslim anti-Semitism that will have come from other countries and as you say been imported into Western countries what I find more difficult to understand is the way that the anti-israel cause seems to have captured the imagination of so many white Britain people from a Christian or atheist background uh not from a Muslim backg ground why does Israel seem to have this hold on the especially young imagination in the west I mean what is rotten with the youth that you end up with polls saying that in America 50% of Youth support Hamas what does that say about the state of these societies and the broader issues that that need to be addressed well one thing is let me give you a stat that's a little connected to that um in New York state which pays roughly the most of any state I think in the Union uh in terms of school schol fees it's about what's only during the co period is about $30,000 a year per pupil for State schooling um that's a lot of money you should be able to do quite a lot with that uh in New York state the uh um K through 12 uh the children who come out with a basic standard of literacy is 50% basic literacy basic literacy K through 12 basic numeracy I I think it's 52% so these figures might all be related we're talking about people who can't read and can't add up you could diddle them out of their change at the cash till and they wouldn't know so I wouldn't go to those people for solving one of the most intractable problems in global Affairs but it might be connected it might be connected if you are so so incapable of basic attainment in education you are this ignorant you are this ignorant maybe you are particularly vulnerable to people who come along and say there's this problem and if we shout boring slogans often enough and we shout at people in the street and we do this we could solve this problem why don't you join I'm saying it's a demonstration of educational failure of an astonishing kind and a moral failure at the heart of America and and of Britain that there have not been enough adults who have corrected them and in fact just informed them I mean don't don't there's one other point I must make on this don't forget that all all of our Lives you're a bit younger than me but all of our lives every politician in the west from both political sides said the same thing they said that the solution to all of the middle east's problems was the creation of a Palestinian State they said that didn't matter it was David Cameron or Ed millerand it's the foreign policy Orthodoxy that foreign Poli astonishingly hasn't shifted with the October 7 it hasn't shifted amazingly enough uh these people are still saying this and it should by now be demonstrable not just the Palestinians were already given a state in 2005 and created a terrorist state in Gaza of course in Gaza so I mean I I'm not don't see why they should be given another go and another go othero particularly not after October 7th I don't see why you should reward the terrorism of that day by doubling down on the two-state solution but when you when you look at that analysis that we were told all the time growing up the Orthodoxy if the Palestinians can only get a state and live happily side by side the by the Israelis you know the economy of Yemen will Blossom uh the the the Ayatollah in Iran will realize that women aren't dirt um and and so on no of course not it doesn't have any impact on any of the problems of the region you you think that North Africa is going to get sorted out or anything just because there's another failed Arab state of course not but that has dissolved in front of our eyes it has been as proven to be wrong as anything can be proven to be wrong in international relations and yet they still say it they still said and and you've spoken that you think it's a question of stupidity of illiteracy of innumeracy but whatever the reasons are one of the things that I've been trying to talk about in the course of this war trying to draw people's attention to what monstrosity this is that has grown up under their noses of this violent anti-israel movement is that they're not only coming after Israel they are a threat to the well-being of your free liberal Democratic societies as well when Mike frier the Member of Parliament for Finchley has to step down because the islamist threats are too much when there is a cinema owner in Barcelona who refuses to host Israeli movies because his family have been getting death threats when you have to change venue for a talk in London because the theater decides to cancel you this violent anti-israel movement is trying to dictate to Western countries to non-jews as well MH what they can say who they can listen to what they can do and I'm wondering do you see the beginning of a push back against this well I'm certainly not doing what they want me to do and thank goodness you're not but I never I your lone voice in the wilderness or not all I have enormous um support and and uh much more in the UK and in the US and elsewhere I I'm not a minority I'm not a minority in my own country um I won't be bullied or pushed around by some islamist blo hard loud mouths of course not I'm rather shocked by the way I the Mike frier case there's two shocking things about it one is that he was put into a position where he felt he had to step down and the other is is that there was so little uh relatively little Horror in the British Media or political class that this had happened I would say that if a if a if an MP had to stand down from Parliament because of threats from farri White supremacists who have no meaningful role in Britain then then I mean I if that did happen the whole country would be United in saying how dare they do this and what's more would have protected the MP the acceptance of the fact that islamist uh um threat exists in our society and that we might have to give into it horrifies me and uh i' I said I mean I everyone has to make their own decisions but I'm horrified by what Mike frier decided to do and the manner in which he decided to do it um he has to make his own decisions about his life but I would prefer the conservative party of Margaret Thatcher for instance the day after the Brighton bombing which very nearly killed Margaret Thatcher and her husband that was intended to kill Margaret that and her husband killed her friend uh killed a number of her colleagues and very very badly wounded others in the Brighton Hotel bombing she stepped out the next morning the Conservative Party Conference went on she said we do not give in to the men of violence we do not give in terrorism the Party Conference will go on as normal now that's the Britain I know stiff up a lip chin up uh more than that tough resilient don't give into bullies you don't give into violence you don't give into terrorists never never the idea that we've slipped so so quietly and so relatively easily into this pacified people who can be pushed around by people who have no right to push us around is an outrage to me and by the way it's a darn fo position to find yourself in to stand up for a man more than he's willing to stand up for himself so I should just stress that Mike frier in an interview the week after he had to stand down from Parliament said to an interviewer who asked him about the islamist Ali Hari Ali who murdered s David Amos um in his constituency surgery three years ago so David was killed by a jihadist who was also apparently scouting out David amos's house and the house of another MP friend of mine um Mike freer's house you mean Mike frier and uh Michael Gove was also one of the targets um uh now Mike Freer was asked in an interview after he said he was going to step down because of threats by an interviewer what was he what was it that motivated s David amos's murderer do you know what Mike frier said no I don't know because he's being silenced right here's the thing I have a lot of contempt for that I think that's a contemptuous position to be in contemptuous but difficult to judge someone who's coming under threats like that look yeah well a lot of people come under threats and threats get worse when the threats work and I'm glad you mentioned that because one of the things that I've been wondering about is as I'm trying to said cont temptable not contemptuous cont temptable it's contempt contempt I think I was so filled with contempt I forgot the appropriate word I think we've had a good run of the English language in the podcast so far but one little slip up is acceptable um I'm glad you mentioned this because one of the things I'm wondering about when thinking about how we speak to foreign audiences in the UK around the world is there does seem to be a very large Gulf in values between what is obvious and consensual within Israeli society and the way that Western societies see themselves Western societies that have enjoyed a long piece since 1945 a long piece by the way secured through total victory over the enemy and means that would now be considered at whatever the cost at whatever the cost although I don't think that's a very useful phrase in the recent context I prefer to say uh at zero cost if Hamas surrenders and otherwise at minimum possible cost but I want to bring up a poll that I saw recently that really Disturbed me from yugov that asked uh young uh British people under the age of 40 18 to 40 if a new world war broke out which of the following would you do only 7% said that they would volunteer for military service 21% they said they would not volunteer but would serve if called up and an astonishing 38% said they would not volunteer and would refuse to serve if called up 177% don't know another 177% think that they'd be given some sort of disability by they're a fascinating group that last one I don't believe the armed for would want me to serve due to age or disability now saying it's all 18 to 40 year olds why do they think that if they're 18 to 40 that they wouldn't be allowed to serve due to their age this is a group that didn't understand the question okay so first of all we've got a lot of adults and uh or a lot of people who would fake being ill okay that's not a very good statistic the numbers change only slightly if you ask if Britain were at risk of imminent Invasion would you sign up and still you have a very large minority that says it would refuse to serve even if the country were invaded which to Israelis would be absolutely Bonkers because on the 7th of October anyone who had a weapon and could go down to the kibot Sim and defend them or join the military get called up for reserves um at least outside the the Arab and Ultra Orthodox communities although there too in among the ultra Orthodox we're seeing an uptick in listing it was just so obvious that you have to defend your borders you have to defend your home through Force if necessary and we don't want to have to do this but if we have to we will and that message from the polling numbers that I'm seeing in the west doesn't seem to cut through because you have such large numbers in the west who wouldn't physically defend their homes even if they had to well the first thing is to say it wasn't as clear as it is now on October the 6th um in Israel um brothers in arms and various groups um uh got the security analysis in this country very badly wrong as you know there's an interview with four saying with the threats that they wouldn't serve well I mean you had you had uh um soldiers and commanders saying that they would not serve in in Conflict I thought that was absolutely unbelievable of course when the massacre happened they dropped everything and went into action right which is a point we need to come back to but just on this point of the definition of what was happening very distinguished uh uh sons of this country uh like um uh bugi Alan interviewed on Israeli television four of them on one one interview uh then they say that the that there is no existential threat to Israel for Hamas and that Benjamin Netanyahu is a bigger threat than Hamas and if one thing is clear since October 7th it's that we as a country dramatically underestimated the level of the threat and how dangerous things could that's in a country which knows the threat that knows the threat and has lived the threat in recent Generations so of course how much worse is it in countries that haven't known war for generations and do you think that's part of the reason that we as Israel are clearly struggling to cut through in a public opinion in the west yes because why why in a word is it so difficult for us to cut through because the West believes that peace is the human Norm inheritance and right it's a human right to live in peace it isn't is it there is no such right no such right exists in nature it would it is a wonderful thing to have but it can be taken away like all rights it's the problem of the language of Rights the language of Rights is taught as if rights exist Like Oxygen and they don't they only exist if they are fought for and maintained and they can only be maintained if people who would threaten your rights incl your most basic rights like your right to life are not allowed to succeed there is no law of nature that makes peace the norm it isn't the norm historically we are deeply blessed to have lived in the past few Generations in a world in which it was relatively the norm in Western democracies thanks to Total victory in 19 total victory in 1945 and then again in 1989 1990 and seeing off the two twin horrors of the 20th century of fascism and communism but it is not the norm but if you grew up in the post-war dividend the postc Cold War dividend you could easily come out with the misunderstanding that this was the normal state of human Affairs it isn't I did have a thought after the Ukraine crisis began with Russia's Invasion that that would begin to shift public attitudes in the west and suddenly the language of fighting to defend borders fighting to defend your home fighting to defend freedom and democracy which had begun to sound like cliche after the Iraq War would make inroads in the west and that that shift would make the West more amable to Israel because they would understand what it means to have to defend your home from an armed Invasion are you are you seeing that shift or was that wishful thinking I mean there was a poll that came out OS I think it was straight after the invasion of Ukraine I was in Ukraine last year and um cover that conflict a bit um there was a poll that came out of American public opinion shortly after the invasion of Ukraine asking Americans how they whether they would stay and fight or flee if their country was invaded like Ukraine was invaded the Figures were not that dissimilar to this a majority of Republicans said that they would stay and fight a minority of Democrats said they would so it came out as about 51% of the American public said they'd fight for America because to us it just seems so obvious that when you are under attack you fight to defend your life well you see the first thing is if you're an American you can't foresee this scenario who's going to invade you Canada I mean it it's it's it's a question so far it's like saying what will you do if people from the Moon come it's it's it's not in their experience it's not even in their in their um memories uh in Europe it is in people's memories but of course one of the lessons that Europe took from the second world war was just avoid war at all costs whereas there is one thing worse than war and that's losing and that's certainly a lesson that we've taken to Heart in this war as well where you know we have the crowds around the world saying ceas far and obviously we would like the war to end too but we need it to end in a way that makes sure Hamas cannot attack us again cuz if it ends too early then you just leave the enemy on its feet threatening to attack you again and again of course I mean it's intolerable one of the things I've said about this country is it's absolutely intolerable this country should be in a position where it has to have a Gaza War every second or third year Le and a Lebanon war 15 to 20 years if you look at what Bean had to do in the 80s what what was Operation free galile an attempt to stop the militia able from Lebanon firing missiles into people in the Galilee it's exactly the same as 2006 exactly the same as now so I think it's a totally un unacceptable situation for any country to be in to be having to have round after round of unwinable Wars but just very quickly if I can return to this point about the the who would fight fight you never really know until you get there but you can lay the ground work the termites have gone very far very fast in the west if you're if you're a young American or British person and somebody comes along from a polling company and says would you stay and fight for this country bear in mind first of all that this generation of Young Americans have been taught that their country is institutionally racist that it was founded by slaver racists that it was founded in white supremacy that all of it is rotten that the founding documents are all rotten that everything in American history is just suffused with racism and it's terrible and then by the way would you mind giving up your life for this that's not a good offer why would you if the thing you're being asked to fight for is something you've been told all your life was rotten why would you die for it you only die for something if you care for it if you love it if you want keep it going the termites in the west are the people who have eaten away at the roots of the West they've done it in Britain as well they've tried to tell this generation of young Britain that they are from a country which count them did slavery did colonialism did white supremacy did um not enough minority stuff I mean are these charges false colonialism I mean it's all it's all based on false hoods every well everyone in the world enslaved people and by the way the only people who still do are people in the Muslim world but anyway um everybody in the world has slaves from time in Memorial um the Oddity the oddest thing was when the British government voted to abolish slavery and not just to abolish it but when King George II signed the anti-slavery act into law in 1807 insisted that the Royal Navy get um get the the Navy out across the oceans not just to stop slaving within the British Empire but around the world until 1880 Brazil was still slaving it was stopped from doing so in part because young British men risked and gave their lives to stop the Brazilians taking slaves from Africa so there are several ways you can see the history of a society I could if I wanted to by the way and anyone could if they were a malev actor look at any country in the world through this same lens and I could rip them apart in the same way if I was so malev malevolently inclined to do so if I wanted to look at turkey and to destroy and denigrate and demoralize the the Turkish population I could explain to them that they are the inheritors of an Empire a colonial power indeed and a very brutal colonial power my goodness the Ottoman Empire makes the the British Empire look entirely pacifist um the Ottoman Empire slaved kept slaving much longer than everyone else the Ottoman Empire brutally suppressed all minorities chased one and a half million Greeks out of Asia Minor um it was racist it wasn't great with gays um many many things could be said about the Ottoman Empire and you could use it to say to a modern day Turk and that's why your country's rotten and you're rotten and you've got nothing worth defending you can do that on everyone as it happens Britain and America have a much better history than most countries indeed I think more than any country but it's these countries that have been eaten Away by these termite like ideas that have been foisted on them so the question is firstly would you fight for a country that you've been told is rot and obviously you wouldn't obviously you wouldn't but the second thing is if you still have the correct memory of your Society the correct appropriation of your Society the correct estimation of your society and you're British or you're American and you still have a memory from before the time when they tried to wipe it in the last 20 years if you have that memory and a and a proper estimation of your country's past and the fact that overwhelmingly countries like Britain and America have been overwhelming forces for good in the world overwhelmingly forces for good if you take that into account then okay you would wish to defend it and you'd wish to fight for it and maybe even die for it but there's one other point I have to make never never use these polls to predict the future in 1934 the most famous vote that ever happened at Aral University the Oxford Union was the king and country this house would not fight for king and country right and everybody knows that that house of young men entirely men at that time of course um these young men voted in 1934 that they would not fight for king and country and five years L every single newspaper in Britain the telegraph all of the press attacked lambasted this generation they said that they're weak look there was a good reason that those young men V uh voted that way that night they were still traumatized by they were still traumatized from the Great War many of them had lost their fathers Elder brothers and much more you Europe did not want to go back to war Britain did not want to go back to war when Churchill spoke in the spring of 1940 he knew he was speaking to a nation that needed to be pushed into the point of Courage he knew it was capable of but the point is is that those young men who voted that night at the Oxford Union they would not fight for king and country six years later signed up and they fought for king and country and they were the greatest Generation Well that conversation with Douglas muray was so fascinating it ran to twice the allotted time so instead of cutting it down to a short edited episode we've decided to split it into two if you are watching on YouTube please click subscribe below to be notified when part two of my conversation with Douglas Murray comes out we'll be discussing everything from democracy to dictatorship and everything in between thank you for joining us on state of the nation for
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Channel: Douglas Murray
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Length: 50min 17sec (3017 seconds)
Published: Wed Mar 13 2024
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