Ben: Hey, what's up, holo everyone and welcome back to another episode of Simply Podlogical, a Simply Nailogical podcast I'm Ben and Cristine looks very yellow today Cristine:You mean banana sexy
Ben: Audio only listeners are missing out on how yellow Cristine is today Cristine: I am wearing banana earrings, necklace, gold like lip gloss Cristine: Gold highlighter and a yellow hoodie all for Ben because it's his birthday Ben:Yeah, this Taco Tuesday when you're hearing this
Cristine: Happy birthday to you Ben: Please, please stop Ben: Cristine stop!
Cristine: Simply's Greatest Hits Cristine: Volume Ben
Ben: I don't think you can sing happy birthday. It's still copyright, isn't it?
Cristine: By who?
Ben: Isn't that crazy that there's actually laws Ben: That's why a bunch of famous movies, like they're not singing the traditional happy birthday song. They're singing some like generic replacement Cristine: Information I didn't know I needed but thank you.
Ben: Anyway when you're listening to this on Tuesday. Yeah, it'll be my birthday. I'm Ben: 32 years old
Cristine: It's Ben's birthday. Everyone wish Ben a happy 32 year old birthday Ben: Um, yeah I'm okay, you don't have to do that.
Cristine: The year 2020 is all yours Ben. Ben: I don't want to take ownership of that Ben: Strange strange times. But yeah, we thought it would be fun to have a more Ben centric episode
Cristine: In other words, Cristine: It's Ben's birthday. He's gonna talk about whatever he wants Ben: [laughter] Cristine: Which and so what is Ben's favorite thing in the world? Cristine: Aside from you know, hanging out with me. It's? Cristine: It's?
Ben: What is it Cristine?
Cristine: Playing video games? Ben: Is it?
Cristine: Well, specifically Donkey Kong, and I know you don't really play that much today Cristine: But we'll get into that
Ben: I'm retired from competitive Donkey Kong Cristine: It is a huge part of Ben's history that we haven't really talked about in depth before. I think I've mentioned it in passing Cristine: On my channel. I know many years ago for your birthday. I did a Donkey Kong inspired nail art.
Ben: Oh, I remember Cristine: Do you remember? I posted it on my blog simplynailogical.com, its dead now Ben: But I did Donkey Kong nails as a tribute to you.
Ben: That's right
Cristine: So long ago Ben: So yeah, I guess people who have been following a long time or who've ever googled us exhaustively would know this Ben: But yeah before I was known as Ben: Mr. Nailogical Ben: If you were to google my name what would have come up? Is that at one time Ben: I was one of the best Donkey Kong players in the world.
Cristine: Yeah, and then you were just under Simply Nailogical's shadow Ben: [laughter] Cristine: Its awful Cristine: No! You want the first search result to be the Donkey Kong Ben: Yeah. Yeah, it's a weird thing to Google your name
Cristine: So everyone go Google Ben Mazowita Donkey Kong Cristine: We're gonna get that search result just like above the Simply Nailogical boyfriend ones, let's do it.
Ben: That's okay Ben: It really does feel like a lifetime ago and it's in preparation for this Ben: I was trying to think back to what it was like around that time and it's it's been a bit of a trip Ben: So I guess a good place to start is Ben: Around the end of high school or when I was just starting University this movie came out called Ben: King of Kong A Fistful of Quarters Ben: and that movie
Cristine: That almost sounds like a porno [laughter] Ben: That documentary has a lot to do with why Ben: Donkey Kong, an arcade game that came out in 1981 became really popular again in Ben: uh, around Ben: 2008-2009
Cristine: Do you want to just explain first to all the people including myself previously. What is Donkey Kong? Ben: Yeah, so Donkey Kong is an arcade game that came out in 1981.
Cristine: Before you were born Ben: Yeah, I was born in 88 Ben: So neither of us were around for the Golden Age of arcade games as they call it in their early 80s before games became about Ben: Like when there were arcades when we were kids that were mostly about like putting in a bunch of quarters and trying to get tickets Ben:And then you could exchange 100 tickets for like a little bit of
Cristine: Dave & Busters Ben: Yeah, like Chuck E. Cheese type places, Midway in Ottawa Ben: But there was like this Golden Age of arcades before home consoles became really popular Where yeah, the place to play video games was down at your local arcade you could put in a quarter and play all these really awesome retro games so 1981 Donkey Kong came out and it was the it was the game that basically made Nintendo successful in America.
Cristine: It wasn't... Mario? Ben: Well, here's the thing. So Donkey Kong you play a little a little man Who's trying to save a woman from
Cristine: A man or a monkey?
Ben: No you play a person, jump man He later became known as Mario. By the sequel he's being referred to as Mario so it is I guess technically the first Mario game but People didn't really know at the time
Cristine: I thought the monkey was just like friends with Mario in the same universe Ben: Well They all exist in the same universe now because what we have in that game it really Established three characters that have become an important part of Nintendo's Roster of characters in their universe, right? So Jumpman is Mario. In this game, he's saving Pauline, but she basically turned into Princess Peach and later versions essentially, right I think something Cristine: Always gotta save those females. We need all the men playing video games to save us Ben: It's kind of funny cause a lot of people point to Donkey Kong as one of the first games that even sort of had a narrative because it had like a few cutscenes of the monkey taking the woman and running away and Like showing you Mario has to go climb the structure Cristine: It sounds like Tarzan
Ben: But even like cutscenes in video games weren't really a thing back in 1981 So the game was kind of groundbreaking in a few ways But yeah, so you had Mario established in that game. He's trying to save Pauline and then Donkey Kong also became a very prominent character Cristine: So what kind of game is it? It's not a puzzle. It's not a race. It's like how would you describe it? Ben: Yeah, so I think it's an early version of like a platforming game
Cristine: Kind of like jumping up levels? Ben: Yeah, so the Mario games you probably know and are more familiar with
Cristine: Mario Kart
Ben: Not Mario Kart
Cristine: That's all I know Ben:But just like Super Mario Brothers where you're jumping on things trying to get to the end of the level It's sort of very roughly follows that same concept basically you're a little guy trying to climb to a top of a structure to save a woman from a big ape and there's There's different stories
Cristine: From the Donkey Kong?
Ben: From the Donkey Kong.
Cristine: Okay. Now, I understand.
Ben: So Donkey Kong, I think basically it was a mistranslation Ben: I think the creator was trying to figure a way of saying like angry or dumb ape or something But like the translation they came up with was Donkey Kong.
Cristine: Okay.
Ben: Something like jackass monkey. There's maybe like a King Kong tie in there. Although King Kong tried to sue them at one point and they lost that lawsuit I think they were trying to sue for copyright or something Ben:But yeah, so the game is essentially you're a little guy running up the top of the structure You're jumping over barrels smashing things with hammers and you're just trying to save the lady from the big angry dumb monkey Cristine: So is Donkey Kong only played on those classic big arcade games?
Ben: So because it was so successful in arcades They they ported it to home entertainment system So the first time I ever played it when I was a kid would have been at home on my Nintendo Entertainment System Back in the early 90s, I guess right
Cristine: But you prefer the classic arcade version.
Ben: Well, I remember Before this documentary came out that made it popular again. I remember in Donkey Kong 64 For the Nintendo 64 there is a minigame within that game Where they made you play the original Donkey Kong, I think than an NES version of it briefly But I remember my friends and I were really into Donkey Kong 64 whenever that came out when we were like 13 or something but a lot of them had trouble at that part of the game where you had to play the retro version of the game and like they would call me over and I would like finish that part of the game for them so they could keep playing like The new 3D version. So I think I always realized I was good at the more retro kind of games I don't know what it is
Cristine: Is that just like a hand skill with the old school equipment, like?
Ben: I don't know what it is. I think like the same reason
Cristine: It's a joystick right? Like it's a old like ball Ben: So arcade itself. Yeah, you're playing with a joystick and just one button.
Cristine: I know because we have one of these giant arcade machines in our garage
Ben: Well we'll get to that I Bought a Donkey Kong arcade machine. It's been sitting in the garage unplayed for many years now
Cristine: Just taking up space in the garage [laughter] Ben: I'm gonna pull it out one of these days and get back into it But uh, yeah, I think like the same reason I'm good at and enjoy drumming Also lends itself to like the sort of fast muscle twitch, you know hand-eye coordination Response time that also makes me good at some of these retro games as well Cristine: So you're good at old games Ben: I bought a PlayStation 4 recently and I realized I am not good at modern video games Cristine: Why cause there's just like too too many buttons and too many weapons to choose from?
Ben: You know, it's yeah There's a lot more buttons. It's confusing for this old man, and I almost feel like There's something about them that's just less appealing to me in the sense that they're trying to simulate a reality more
Cristine: Like Halo Ben: I don't know what reality that Is that just the first game that came to your mind?
Cristine: I remembered Halo Ben: Do you know what I mean? Like if I pick up like a first-person shooter now and there's like a bunch of guns to choose from it's almost like it's escapism in the sense that like It's simulating what it's like to be a soldier and I have to know how to cycle through ten different guns Cristine: You have to consider your health and like all these other elements to the game, right? Ben: Yeah I'm not looking at video games as an excuse to like wish fulfillment of living someone else's life and the complications that come with that. I don't like complicated video games I like difficult video games but simple video games. There's a difference between complicated and difficult So I prefer these older games that it's not a ton of buttons or different paths You have to know or different, you know, I know I have to use this weapon at this time blah blah blah I don't care about that I want a simple game That I can that is really difficult and that if I play really well is difficult to do
Cristine: Like Sudoku like game
Ben: no, no Like the original Mario Brothers, that's a game like everyone can play it's super accessible but if you want to try to beat the whole game in under six minutes that takes a lot of skill even though at the end of the day You're just going in a few directions and just pressing one button to run and one button to jump It's a very simple game but it's very difficult to be one of the best people at that game Cristine: So why don't you tell us I know it's it has been a while but as Far as the Internet is concerned. What does the record say about you and Donkey Kong? Ben: I don't know. Actually should we Google myself on the fly? No, I think we should explain that this documentary is actually really important in the story
Cristine: In your story specifically? Ben: Yeah, or the story of the game as well and why all of a sudden in 2008 there's a revival of interest in Donkey Kong which came out in 1981 so this documentary came out around 2006 or 2007 again, it's called king of Kong even if you're not interested in video games I would recommend this documentary because it's really the story about the two best Donkey Kong players in the world and One of them is a giant asshole and one of them is this like the the prototypical Runner-up the guy who can never quite win the prize He's all yeah, he's always the runner-up and it's them in competition to see who was the better Donkey Kong play Cristine: It's kind of like that new Netflix series Tiger King but less insane and about video game players Ben: It is less insane but Cristine: It shows a Culture of like something that a lot of people just have no clue of like I had no idea about the tiger and lion culture in Florida Ben: It's the subculture of guys who are still super invested in 80s arcade games today And yeah, you're seeing that subculture. Yes, actually, I like that comparison. It's not as insane as there's no Exotic Joe in the King of Kong race Actually we should hear here's just a few seconds of the trailer for king of Kong Adam Wood: I don't drink I don't smoke I don't do drugs I play video games.
Todd Rogers: It's the constant drive to be the best at something
Billy Mitchell: When you want your name written into history you have to pay the price Cristine: And that guy's like a big deal right,
Ben: Yeah, so that's Billy Mitchell So he's known and wants people to know of him as the best classic arcade Gamer of all time
Cristine: Is that what a lot of gamers in this realm are after like they just want to be number one? Ben: Yeah, I think it's a lot of frankly like losers and this is their way of being Amazing and great at something
Cristine: Their way of being a winner
Ben: They don't have a lot of success otherwise in their life But I mean to each their own right but yeah I think the prestige that comes along with it and a lot of these guys I don't want to get ahead of myself But a lot of these guys it turns out we're actually faking records and cheating scores people found out years later Because they just craved so much the notoriety of being known as some of the best
Cristine: That's sad cause then it's like not a game anymore It's not real.
Ben: It's more serious than a game Yeah, some people play games just for fun
Cristine: It's supposed to be in good fun and in honesty who has the high score Ben: It's supposed to be but yeah, like with anything if there's fame that comes along with it People are gonna try their cheat their way to the top
Cristine: No cheating. Cheating is bad Ben: Anyway, so King of Kong Maybe skip the next two minutes if you're gonna actually watch the documentary because I guess I'll give a brief synopsis of it. Cristine watched It - we watched it together recently Cristine: yes Ben made me watch it
Ben: What did you think did you enjoy it? Cristine: It was, it's definitely interesting. I guess. I've never really been that into video games But I am aware of your history as being at one point, you were number eight, for with highest score I don't know why I remember that specifically obviously that changes depending on who else gets higher scores but years ago I remember looking it up when I was googling you.
Ben: Oh, is that before we were dating and you were googling me and thats what you found?
Cristine: Yeah thats what I found He was number eight in the world for Donkey Kong, I'm like he's a winner Ben: That didn't scare you away?
Cristine: No, didn't you give me a copy of this Donkey Kong documentary for - not our first date but Early on?
Ben: When we were first dating as a gift I gave you this documentary.
Cristine: But like why because you're not in the documentary, right? Ben: I thought it was just like a funny thing at the time like hey, by the way Like I was I wasn't in the documentary,
Cristine: But I'm close enough. Yeah that really impressed me Ben Ben: I was in the first wave of players who kind of came onto the scene after The King of Kong documentary played
Cristine: But you must have been so young then when you got that 8th world record or whatever. How old were you this was a long time ago.
Ben:Okay. So this is I guess jumping ahead to like I played it on the computer for a while through emulators Right, and that's also a controversial thing a lot of people So the popularity of the game actually has a lot to do with the fact that computers Became capable of emulating these old arcade games So a lot of people are just playing them on their their Mac's or PCs. I did that for a few years Before because it's hard to get your hands on a Donkey Kong arcade. There aren't a ton of them. They're hard to come by It's a giant box that weighs like 300 pounds. I had to drive down to Philadelphia and buy it from a really strange guy I found on eBay Cristine: When you were 20 years old?
Ben: That was a whole experience and that was in 2009 I want to say Because I had actually driven down to Washington DC to visit my cousin and then on the way back with my brother We picked up the arcade from some guy in Scranton, Pennsylvania who I found on the Internet He sold it to me for only like $300, but it was in pretty rough shape but yeah, that's how I got my hands on a Donkey Kong and then it's If you google me now and you see that I have a high score associated with it. It's probably because in 2010 I went to Flemington, New Jersey To Richie Knucklez arcade because he was hosting the first annual Kong Off tournament
Cristine: Kong Off That's what it was called?
Ben: It was called the Kong Off So I showed up to that and I put up a pretty respectable score there.
Cristine: Which was? Ben: I think it was like eight hundred thousand a little over eight hundred thousand
Cristine: And eight hundred thousand just to give a reference Category the top people in that documentary we're getting like 800 thousand or a million Ben: Yes, so I think yeah in the documentary there That million point threshold was really important. There were at that time There were like two people in the world who could get a million points on Donkey Kong by the time the Kong off was happening a few more players had come onto the scene a Plastic surgeon from New York I think actually had the world record at the time Hank Chen.
Cristine: What? He's really good with hand-eye coordination it makes sense Ben: He's actually a really nice guy and even though I'll say like I wasn't really involved in the community online like a lot of these guys would Just like hang out online all day streaming each other's gameplay and talking and coming up with strategies and stuff together I didn't look at Donkey Kong as like a social thing or a way to make friends on the internet so much I just kind of wanted to get really good at it and it was almost this thing where I Didn't want anyone to know I even did it until I was really really good at it so I wanted to show up to the Kong off with most people who don't really know me and just throw down a really good score the issue with that is because of that I had to register Like as a competitor and I had to like even share a machine with another guy there Whereas a lot of these other guys who were more well-known just had their own dedicated machine in the arcade Cristine: So what happened when you got your high score?
Ben: I got my high score and I've vanished into the night never to be seen again Cristine: While you were there did you meet those other top players like the guys from the documentary?
Ben: Sure. Yeah. Yeah so I I had talked a little bit to Hank the world record holder at the time before because I had a friend in New York and I would occasionally go down there and that's where he's from and I had asked him just like are there arcades in New York I could play at when I'm down there because at that time I was I Was trying to get my hands on practicing on a machine So I wasn't just playing on an emulator on my computer
Cristine: Just for my own reference what stage of life were you at? was this in high school or university? Ben: University. So we're talking 2009 ish
Cristine: So you're like 20 years old or something like that. Okay.
Ben: Yeah, we're we're in the middle of undergrad Cristine: I'm just picturing you driving to like some random town to go play the Kong Off Ben: Driving to New Jersey driving to New York. Yeah, so I talked to Hank the world record holder a bit and I should I appreciate that guy and I should thank him in a way because The legitimacy of myself, I never really submitted scores in any sort of official way There was actually a pretty rigorous process by which you were supposed to record your full gameplay submitted to Twin Galaxies or some other Online database have like a referee watch it. I never really did that because I just Knew myself that I felt comfortable my scores I didn't really care about other people's recognition But I know I can still find and I recently came across it again on some of these forums Hank sort of Standing up for me in a way and saying like my score should be recognized as legitimate because based on the gameplay of mine He's seen he he knows it's I was a legitimate player not somewhat faking it somehow So like and at the Kong off, I think that kind of proved that Like over the course of two days to show up in a live competition setting and be able to throw up a score that is You know above eight hundred thousand like I scored I think pretty close to the same thing Billy Mitchell scored that weekend So I think a lot of people recognize that Cristine: Did you talk to Billy Mitchell? Ben: I observed Billy Mitchell a lot
Cristine: Did he ignore you? Ben: He very much had that aura around him of
Cristine: I am Jesus. Don't talk to me.
Ben: Yeah, well, you know what I noticed I kind of felt sad for him that weekend because it was very clear that it's super important to him That people think he's amazing and it's kind of pathetic and He wasn't playing the best He wasn't at the top of the leaderboard and you could tell it was driving him nuts Like he was getting pretty angry at his machine and then on conversely I was at the machine right beside Steve Wiebe Yeah, who like yeah it's intense and you're getting into it and you're trying to throw up a great score and I actually got good footage of Him getting a kill screen and and getting a high score at the end of the weekend but in between games I remember I like briefly had a conversation with him about basketball because it was like during March Madness and Steve's really into The Huskies he's really into college basketball So I remember him just like being able to turn a switch and he's just like talking about basketball on how he wishes he could Be watching basketball right now.
Cristine: So Steve has a family right like when he was playing these games He had young kids and a wife? Ben: So yeah Billy and Steve both have families And I'm sure it's caused some stress and in the documentary king of Kong. It does show how it does put some strain on Steve's home life that he's spending hours in his garage trying to get the world record on a video game while his wife is like Could you just help me raise our kids and make some money? Yeah, and it was even it's kind of embarrassing Cristine: Actually that's a good question. Was anyone making money from participating in these competitions like you guys have sponsors or something Ben: No one was making money people are doing this for the love of it. But Richie, the arcade owner I remember he's a interesting guy He's like a former punk musician actually if anyone knows how to get ahold of Richie Knucklez. Let me know because I'd love to buy Cristine: Not buying any machines
Ben: If I could get my hands on the Donkey Kong machine that I actually played on in New Jersey or one of the Donkey Kong machines that were used at the Kong off. I would love to get my hands on that as a keepsake
Cristine: Where are you going to put it we don't have any room here Ben: We got we got some I'd find a place So yeah, Richie if you're listening to this reach out to me, but uh, no one's making money Richie I'm sure Richie probably lost money on that. He was doing it for the love of the game Cristine: Even if you got a top score and you were streaming this stuff, or putting footage somewhere The only way you might be making money is once maybe YouTube came along and people were uploading these videos Ben: I think the Kong off may have had a cash prize and I remember he got Like redbull to show up and give us like free redbull drinks like, you know, I mean it was probably like pretty small-scale stuff I think there was a cash prize for the winner, but you're right people aren't making money live streaming Cristine: Do you have to put like 25 cents into begin playing? Ben: You can set the Machine to free play but here here's the beautiful thing about being amazing at these old arcade games right is one quarter can Start a game for you that will last like two or three hours if you're really good, right so Arcade owners worst nightmare actually are these people who are amazing at games Because you just walk and put in a quarter and then you're not giving them any more money
Cristine: Actually yeah, good point Cuz any time we ever go to an arcade like in New York When we were in Brooklyn and we went to an arcade Ben just goes and plays on an arcade machine He's gone for like an hour and he's been playing the same game like like Ben. Come on. Let's go Ben: There's uh There's an arcade slash bar in Brooklyn Called Barcade that we try to pop into or I try to pop into when we're down there We went as a the whole the whole gang went down last time We were at Creators Summit and I think we spent a night at Barcade. Yeah, that's fun Cristine: So no one is making money from playing video games. They're just loving it although today That is very different. A lot of people make a lot of money Ben: There are a lot of people online making a lot of money from playing games now
Cristine: But in the 90s or the early 2000s. Ben: It's not even that right. It's like if you're the best Donkey Kong player in the world like yeah Maybe your local newspaper is gonna write an article about you. You might get some Attention that way but you're not like making Ninja money streaming on Twitch or something Cristine: So why did you, you eventually stopped competing for the title of Donkey Kong world record holder So kind of how did that unfold?
Ben: Yeah, I mean I always felt I was really good at the game, but I wasn't one of these guys who wanted to invest the days and days and days of time needed to really be at the top of the score the high scores
Cristine: You were in school, so you were busy Ben: So yeah, I was in university. I also had a job I didn't have a ton of the social life at the time and as that changed and I you know Started meeting people dating people and dating you all of a sudden Donkey Kong became a lot less important in my life Cristine: Don't blame me. You weren't actively playing Donkey Kong Ben: I know but yeah there was a time where I think I had a legitimate shot at getting the world record and there came a Moment where the world-record got to like 1.1 million and then started getting higher and higher where I realized Even if I had the skillset to get there It's kind of unfortunate that they, like there are 20 people in the world today Probably who probably could get the world record if they just put enough time into it because Yeah, it's 99% skill but there is that 1% element of luck, right and actually that's probably a little conservative say it's only 1% because there's a few random elements in the game when you Smash a barrel with your hammer it can award you 300 500 or 800 points For example that that there is a random element to that So if you have a barrel board where you get 13 smashes of a barrel That's a huge difference. If those barrels were giving you 300 points versus 800 the blue barrel or whatever so of all the best players in the world the people with the world record today are probably the people who were just able to invest the most time into it Cristine: And are all those world record There are all those world record holders How were they proven to have gotten the world record?
Ben: Well thats the thing, so after the king of Kong a big Element of that storyline is controversy over the legitimacy of scores because Steve has a score invalidated at one point because someone observed a little gummy substance on like his game board and it came from a guy who Doesn't like the referee and like, you know, I mean like there's a lot of controversy over how scores got approved. Where's Billy Mitchell? Who was friends with all the guys approving the scores? he submits like a fuzzy video tape to an arcade doesn't even show him playing the game and That gave him the world record for it
Cristine: So there's corruption in this industry interesting Spill the tea Ben I've got my Pac-Man mug here spill it Ben: Well, yeah so there was a Part of the reason I wasn't submitting official scores is that there was a very rigorous process of what you had to film before and after your gameplay to have that score legit and recognized as legitimate by Twin Galaxies or That was basically the organization that maintained the record books was called so I wasn't doing that I wasn't ending my games resetting the game opening up my board showing the game board all that I wasn't too interested in that if you could see my gameplay and see that nothing fishy is going on I felt good enough about that and I wasn't getting the world record anyway right But your there was a lot of controversy over some of these scores at a certain time
Cristine: Some of the top players like Billy Mitchell Who had a world record People contested it right.
Ben: Are you aware of this?
Cristine: Well it was in the documentary Ben: So in the documentary, all you see is that he has a tape get approved for the world record Even though you don't see him play it and it's a little sketchy how that comes to happen. It's approved very quickly It doesn't go through the same process it should but actually years later I could link people some resources if they're actually interested in this but there is a lot of credible evidence that Billy actually Didn't achieve those records legitimately that he cheated
Cristine: What did he do to cheat or like what's the conspiracy? Ben: So there's It's really important that you achieve these scores on an actual arcade machine like some people or argue that there's not a huge difference in gameplay between The arcade and playing it on an emulator on the computer
Cristine: But it's hard to cheat on an original arcade machine Ben: Yes, it's much. I don't even know how you could cheat on an arcade board itself, but with an emulator Yeah, there's a difference in the controls slightly that I would argue actually makes a keyboard easier than a joystick But as well on an emulator if you screw with the footage if you splice things together if you have savestates You could play the game in a way where if you die, you just load the last level and keep going for example so notice in Billy's tape, even the one in the King of Kong documentary There's no sound on the tape. It's clearly a recording of a recording and One reason there might not be sound is that at the time the emulators didn't do a very good job of reproducing the sound accurately But someone like 10 years after the documentary came out Really broke down his footage and they found that if you've stop but frame-by-frame and watch how the level loads The way you can see like sort of the level come together in the sequence of like three frames It looks the way MAME constructs the gameplay rather than the way it comes together on Actual arcades
Cristine: Whats MAME?
Ben: So MAME is the computer emulator way of playing the game so it is almost certain that Billy Mitchell was achieving those scores on MAME where he could have been using save states and a lot of people have been Even back in Kong off days. I remember in 2011 There was a lot of talk and a lot of people doubting Billy and I think seeing at the Kong off him not being able to get great scores live made people question it even more and people had always been a little suspicious too of the fact that Like in one of his World-record game plays you see him getting a lot of good luck in terms of how many points he's getting from certain barrels or sequences and patterns some of the random elements and it's just like either that's like a one-in-a-million chance or he was just Reloading the levels in a way where they were going in his favor So yeah, he's so since then he has come out and played live and shown that he can get like million points scores He's still an amazing player but his ego was so fragile that I Think it is very likely that he cheated on those scores just so he could say he was holding on to the world record Cristine: Are you going to get sued for this?
Ben: He is a very litigious person so we should be careful that this all alleged
Cristine: What's the disclaimer? Ben: Yeah, what is, I'll call the lawyer after this We're alleging that Billy Mitchell cheated on those scores. There is strong evidence that
Cristine: Hey you're alleging, I don't know shit I'm not in this game. I have another question though Has there been any like sabotage of trying to ruin someone else's game? Ben: Yeah, unplugging machines in the middle of a high score.
Cristine: Is it possible to fuck with someone else's gameplay Somehow like can you rig something in the back of the arcade machine? Ben: Well, you just you sneak up behind them and you start tickling them No, I mean it would be pretty obvious If you mess with people, I'm sure I've heard it happening although before of things getting Accidently turned off and things are
Cristine: What if someone drops their coffee all over the joystick Ben: Explodes No, it's funny. No, I don't have any good stories about people completely messing up other people Cristine: I was hoping this could be like next-level Tiger king, you know video game Ben: You know, I do think though one of these days I'm gonna pull that arcade machine out of storage and play again Cristine: It's broken though, right? Ben: It needs some work.
Cristine: It needs electrical work which has me worried because the last time you tried to work on it didn't it spark? I'm like I don't want that in my house it's gonna blow shit up Ben: Yeah, it started smoking at one point and, when I turn it on now I hear this like ping and it starts making weird noises that's why I got a reach out to someone and have them make a completely refurbished one because there's something just so beautiful about just to kind of bring it back to the beginning the the simplicity but Difficulty of these original games is such a I have a lot of nostalgia for it. And I really enjoy it and It's hard to explain but like like you've never played sports, right? Cristine: Dance?
Ben: You know, when people talk about being in the zone or being in a flow state Do you know what that means or can you relate to that at all? Because I've never felt that more This is gonna maybe sound sad or kind of weird but in Donkey Kong, I felt like and I've talked to other players who I think agree with this that You get into the state of This almost like sort of Zen state where you kind of feel like Everything is in control. You see where the barrels are coming. You can predict the random movements coming. It's kind of this beautiful Calming flow state. Like euphoric feeling
Cristine: Like euphoria. It's like you're on drugs but it's video games Ben: It's strange. It's like almost like an outer-body experience Like when you're when you're driving a car and you just forget you're driving and then you realize
Cristine: Don't do that Ben: But you know how you kind of go on autopilot and you realize oh shit I've been driving the last two minutes and I can't remember what happened. It's almost like that Except you're doing something really technically difficult on autopilot. That's like kind of the best analogy I can have to explain because and you can play this game Donkey Kong simply put is a game where you're just trying to run up a structure to get to the end to get to the finish line but if you look kind of past that Yeah, you can get to the game as quickly as possible and just try to get as many points that way but then they realized The best players in the world realized including Billy Mitchell in the 80s that the game actually has an end the designers of the game Didn't want it to have an end. It has something called a kill screen so you have a certain amount of time to finish a level and That gets calculated based off how many levels into the game you are Once you get to the twenty second level there's actually like an error in how the game calculates your clock for How much time there is to finish the level and it doesn't give you enough time to finish that twenty second The first barrel board of the twenty second level so people realize okay There's a finite limit on how many boards I have to get a high score So for a long time the best players in the world were just the people who could get to the end of the game So if you can just rush to the kill screen as quickly as possible You're only going to get like 700,000 points But you'll reach the kill screen that way and you will have played a very safe conservative way to get there. For example but if you really push the game to the limit and Do what like only the best people in the world can do it's you're trying to maximize the amount of time within each level To get as many points as possible and that involves jumping over the same barrel twice You can control the barrels through very small Movements to manipulate whether or not they go down ladders So whereas someone might just look at the game quickly and at a very superficial level just see Barrels falling down a hill and a guy jumping over them Like me and the thirty other people in the world are the hundred other people in the world who are really good at Donkey Kong we're like We're like, you know that scene in the Matrix. You're like, I can see the code. Yeah, it's kind of feels like that It's like you can you can make things happen that other people don't understand how you're making them happen.
Cristine: You're so passionate about this Ben: It's an amazing feeling to feel like that in control of that chaos Cristine: So you've filmed yourself playing Donkey Kong before in order to participate in some of these things? Ben: I guess I just wanted some legitimacy, to show some of my higher scores. I actually didn't film much at all Cristine: Is there footage? There is a video that you uploaded on YouTube like eight years ago, right? Ben: So the the highest score I uploaded was like nine hundred and seventy thousand and that was on pace for Maybe in a 1 million 60 thousand type Cristine: And you uploaded that to your channel 8 years ago I uploaded the last few minutes of footage back to YouTube Just so-so people on those forums of the time would actually have something to point to Cristine: But you're not actually like physically you're you're not really in it, right? Cuz that's not how they're recorded. Right? Ben: No I was just recording the gameplay some people have like webcams or will just stream on Twitch their gameplay now and they might have like an angle of their hands an Angle of them and an angle of the gameplay just so like no one is questioning
Cristine: Where did I see a video Was it you in someone else's video? Like I saw behind you like you were playing at the arcade
Ben: So you can find clips of the Kong off there of the first Kong off in New Jersey That I went to on YouTube
Cristine: And like whose channel is that what is that? Because it wasn't yours Ben: I don't know whose channel was I would play it now except it's full of like copyright like music I think but yeah if you just google Kong or if you just type Kong off into YouTube one of the first results I'll put a link in the description box, but Cristine: to see Ben playing It does show some of my gameplay I'm wearing like this like trucker or 1up mushroom hat and they actually caught the exact moment. I died in my On my high score. No, it's a really exciting moment. I came close to getting a kill screen live at the Kong Off Cristine: But that's a big deal, right this kill screen? Is that how the game programmers designed it like the kill screen is basically unattainable or they want to make it attainable only to like a fraction of a percent Ben: No, so what I was trying to explain before was that it's unintentional the designers didn't realize it But they didn't really test the game to see they didn't anticipate being able to get that far in the game Cristine: So that's why it's called the kill screen because it's like a dead screen. It's like the blue screen of death Ben: It's literally a screen you cannot survive or pass or Although there were rumors for years that someone had figured out a way of getting past the kill screen Cristine: Sure there were
Ben: All sort of myths about this game the random barrels but yeah, I'll link that video below and You can watch it because it shows the moment I die and I died in like a really random barrel thing and it's also worth pointing out that when I set that high that score at the Kong off I had only owned a Donkey Kong machine for like Four or five months or something. So I most of my experience was on a computer playing with a keyboard and I'd only very recently Gotten into playing with a joystick. Yeah.
Cristine: So who is the current number one world record holder? Ben: So yeah, the sad thing is I don't really know I know there are basically three guys who are kind of trading world records for a while And at this point there's a very small number of people who have clearly established themselves as the best and they're not Steve Wiebe They're not Bill Mitchell Cristine: It's like a whole new camp of people. Well younger people picking up games and like Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe and all these people are how old now?
Ben: Yeah. Yeah, they are getting older they were teenagers in the eighties when this game came out, right so Yeah, it's I guess I'm part of the problem, too because I mostly came into playing this game because of the documentary but a lot of people are kind of It's a little sad that the game has been taken over by this younger generation of people in a way Because there's just something so fun about the rivalry between Billy and Steve
Cristine: Why don't the younger generation Just stick to their Fortnite
Ben: Exactly, you know stick to your games Let these
Cristine: Its like TikTok's
Ben: Let these Classic gaming legends have their games Cristine: Let the dads in the basement play the Donkey Kong
Ben: And like I was saying too so there's a handful of people now who have gotten 1.2 million scores, which a few years ago people thought was just Almost impossible that you'd have to have a perfect game. And now we have a few people
Cristine: And when they're getting these scores It's always on the classic arcade game?
Ben: Yes. I mean, most people don't really MAME scores they only care about if you said it on an arcade, right?
Cristine: And like you said the arcade Boxes are hard to even find so people don't always have the opportunity
Ben: Yeah only a certain number were made Yeah to play on an original board. Yeah, but but like I was saying before like I think a lot of it now is that there are Like a certain number of people in the world who have the skill set to get a world record But it really just came down to who are the people who can stay home all day and play days upon days Just trying to get that world record pace and get that world record score Not trying to take away from the people who do have the world record now clearly like their skill level is amazing Cristine: But they also dedicated a lot of time of their lives
Ben: But they only could have been the people Who had an incredible amount of time to dedicate to this and a guy like Steve You know maybe he had a lower ceiling than a 1.2 million score or Maybe he just has a family and he has a job and he needs to support his family So it just came a time where it make sense he didn't continue
Cristine: Did these people have jobs? Ben: I feel like I think they all have jobs. I don't know Cristine: Maybe they just like were born into wealth or you know, their significant other just made money for them I don't know.
Ben: Yeah, well, maybe I could just retire and become like a Donkey Kong player.
Cristine: I don't think so honey
Ben: You could keep making YouTube videos You're gunna pay your half I'm gonna take some time off work just to play Donkey Kong No, but yeah, I kind of miss it I might play and kick it around again But yeah The dedication it takes to actually set a world record score at this point is just kind of insane
Cristine: Have you kept in touch with Any of the star players? Ben: No, and I was never really close to them If any of them are watching this They'll probably think it's kind of bizarre because
Cristine: Like who the fuck is this guy?
Ben: I was definitely I was an outsider in that community I'd talked to a few of them a handful of times Cristine: You were just some kid to them cause they were older than you
Ben: No but there were some young guys involved There's this french-canadian kid who was like always taking his shirt off who was
Cristine: What? Ooh la la Ben: Vincent something there were a couple good Canadian kids there There was something weird about that But I haven't kept in touch with them all occasionally poke around and look at the forums still though.
Cristine: Are they still actively playing? Ben: Not not so much
Cristine: Have they moved on to other games or is Donkey Kong their one true love? I want a follow up
Ben: Donkey Kong will always be the true love I feel like people have sort of moved on the excitement that came along with the documentary and the Kong offs and everything after once Billy Mitchell kind of got exposed for Allegedly, you know submitting those fraudulent scores. I feel like that kind of was a concluding chapter To Donkey Kong being a super popular game. Like it'll always be like it is It might be the most famous arcade game ever. So there will always be some prestige that comes along with playing that game But between you know this sort of story between Steve and Billy coming to a close and people pushing the world record to a point Where it would be incredibly difficult for people to improve it even by a small number of points it kind of feels like the excitement around it has really died down and now it's just people who feel like playing and streaming the Game for fun rather than this competition to other people Cristine: Yeah And if arcade games themselves are just archaic and hard to find inevitably it's kind of gonna die out Ben: Harder and harder, but this happens in cycles, you know like the same way vinyl became really popular in the last Five or ten years again with people really into music Exactly, you know hipsters are I don't like hipsters cause people use that as a pejorative I don't mind hipsters, but it's this idea
Cristine: It's like bringing vintage back.
Ben: Yeah things happen in cycles things come back into style I wouldn't be surprised if one day there's another sort of resurgence in popularity Of some of these vintage classic arcade games. We're kind of seeing it now with The games we grew up with in the 90s now like I don't watch a lot of YouTube gaming Content because I think most of it is garbage Cristine: Like the games that are out there like Fortnite? I don't even know what Fortnite is
Ben: It's not the games it the kind of gaming content that PewDiePie and Markiplier and those guys
Cristine: PewDiePie doesn't make gaming content anymore Ben: I know but I'm talking back in like like three four years ago, right
Cristine: Minecraft?
Ben: Not, minecraft is more recent He's gotten into playing minecraft again, but he's actually kind of acting more like I'm not trying to get into a Felix thing exactly here But there was a type of Let's Play content that him and markiplier and a few other guys popularized That was basically a guy in the corner Screaming and overreacting to everything while playing video games and there is nothing I'd want to watch less than that I hate that content. I can't stand it.
Cristine: It's just not for you Ben: But who is it for? Just children that need stimulation though right? Cristine: It's like TroomTroom its like weird and cringy, but you know Maybe it's not for you.
Ben: And I almost feel like those guys kind of lost their mind making that I think Felix has even talked about the fact that It took a lot out of him and there was a point at which he hated doing it but kind of felt like that's what people expected of him and markiplier like Markiplier is a super sweet guy. We've met him a couple times. He's done some amazing charity work and stuff for uh, For like make-a-wish. I think like he seems like a genuinely great person. So I'm not trying to say this is and Just attacking him or insulting him But there is a point at which like he was he would occasionally show up on the trending page posting a video of him Basically having like a mental breakdown and it was very strange that he was putting that content out I almost wonder if that's tied to the fact that he was You know putting on this character and screaming playing video games on the internet I just feel like he, I hope markiplier is okay because I saw some pretty alarming stuff from him at one point Cristine: But thats sad, thats not just about being a video gamer That's about being a youtuber and doing it for so long that you lose your mind Ben: That's a lot to do with it but I guess my theory is that Playing games and screaming at the camera and that being your thing probably also isn't good for your self-concept So that kind of gaming content. I have no interest in the only time I watch gaming content on YouTube now is There's this organization. They put on events called like Games Done Quick or like Summer Games Done Quick where basically they bring together some of the best video game players in the world To livestream over the course of a few days them trying to set world records or like speedrun certain Retro games and they raise millions and millions of dollars for cancer research. It's actually pretty amazing what those guys are doing and to see people who are just like really excellent at video games like yeah, you still get some of the Cringy characters people who are like way too into video games that happens But it mostly seems like a pretty cool community of people who just happen to be Like amazing at Super Mario Brothers 3 or Sonic the Hedgehog 2 some of the games I remember Growing up on when I was a kid.
Cristine: So what about you? Would you ever be a video game streamer? You want to get a Twitch channel?
Ben: Yeah, I kind of like the idea of keeping video games more of a Cristine: Personal activity?
Ben: Yeah more more of an outlet that I just do selfishly for myself and rather than Making that a product for consumption with so much of our lives ends up on the internet now
Cristine: So much of our lives are monetized Ben: Yes, and I mean that's our choice Cristine: I don't mean us like
Ben: Oh you just mean within our culture? Cristine: I meant our like as in youtubers in general so much of a youtubers life is monetized and you can definitely decide to which degree and how much of your life you want to show like we only show Not that much of our lives like our day to day life. You don't really see Ben: Well, you swear monetizing it I would argue beyond just youtubers so much of our lives now are shared online at least you and Tana Mongeau and Lele Pons, they're making money Why are you putting me in the same group? Just some names that come to mind, you know, but you know, but okay but to get to the original point yeah, I there are some things I just basically want to keep for myself Cristine: It's like yeah, I get it Sometimes I just want to paint my nails and not have to go downstairs in my studio and film it like I just want to paint it up at my computer while watching Grey's Anatomy You know?
Ben: Actually that's a really interesting parallel because there was a time where yeah You felt a lot of pressure to just people wanted to see you paint your nails
Cristine: And they wanted to see me paint my nails and scream at things Just like a video game
Ben: Just like markiplier Cristine: Oh my god killshot! Holo Taco! see its the same
Ben: So like you rebelled against that and started posting a lot of non nail polish content, right? Yeah, and I feel like when did you start posting nail art again? Basically when people stopped asking you to post nail art Cristine: I'm just like a stubborn kid never do what my parents ask of me Ben: We should take advantage of this, Cristine will do whatever we ask her and ask her not to do
Cristine: So what are you going to tell me not to do? Careful I may just stop making videos Ben
Ben: Gotta keep this PG I want you to retire from YouTube and I want us to never go on vacation.
Cristine: Oh shut up What about you if I suggested that maybe you want to play video games soon I post that tomorrow Would you?
Ben: Tomorrow I don't know what you're talking about whats tomorrow?
Cristine: Its just another day in the calendar in 2020 Ben: I guess we'll see.
Cristine: We'll see Ben: Alright everybody I think that's it You got anything?
Cristine: Well, do you have any like heartfelt thoughts you want to express on your past career as a pro Donkey Kong player? like I don't think people realize Everyone's you know, Simply Nailogical whatever famous Canadian weird nail art girl and was a child actor, but Ben was a Donkey Kong star he was number eight at some point
Ben: I don't know if eight is right I don't want people leaving this thinking I was actually like a world record holder or something like that I was I was among the best in the world for a brief moment in time But I was never super invested Cristine: Well that's something most people can't say so don't undermine yourself Ben: Yeah, no, no, I'm I guess I'm proud of it in some way Cristine: Yes Ben, it's okay to be proud of your video game accomplishments Yeah no, I'm happy I could say that I was really good at something even if it was something like Donkey Kong Cristine: I think you know it's good to become really some really good at something that you're passionate about That's fun. And that isn't just related to your work or what you do for a living, right? A lot of people become good at their jobs because that's like what they do every day But if you can find a passion project and become really good at it and you know You're doing it just because you enjoy it. I think that's a good lesson, too Ben: Don't be too supportive I'm gonna start playing Donkey Kong again Cristine: No, no, but that Donkey Kong machine has to say in our garage because it does not fit in the house I'll play in the garage just like Steve Wiebe.
Cristine: We don't have any room, sorry, no we dont have room for it Ben: But I would recommend that documentary it holds up we watched it recently I would recommend checking that out Although people will say that it's not entirely accurate the filmmakers do take some Creative liberties in the interest of putting the story before the factual accuracy of some of the things I would say but I think fundamentally It gets the story right that Steve Wiebe is a great guy who just keeps coming up short and Billy Mitchell is a prick And I think the story is great from that perspective. Even if it glosses over some things that actually happened in reality and Part of me wishes. We could go back to the simpler times of just Billy and Steve competing for world records because that was a lot of fun
Cristine: If they were ever listening or someone showed them this clip Would you have anything to say to Billy or Steve? Ben: I'd say hi to Steve. Hey, Steve. You're a good guy That's all you can say Hey Steve, what up, how are your kids doing Hope your kids are good Yeah, I don't want to get sued by Billy Mitchell so I won't say anything Cristine: All right. I think everyone should wish Ben a very happy 32nd birthday, in the comments Ben: I'm so old Cristine: You're just so old. I'm not even 32 yet and I won't be until later this year Ben: All birthdays stop having meaning after I think like 25 to me because if you can say like I'm in my early 20s That's one thing but as soon as hit 25, I feel like the number kind of stops Cristine: Well, I forgot how old you were turning like just last week so
Ben: Yeah, you thought I was 31 Cristine: I'm like how old are you?
Ben: Yeah I'm the older man Cristine: All right. Well We should go enjoy your birthday. How about that? You want to play some Donkey Kong? Ben: I would like you to bake me a cake Wait no reverse psychology I don't want you to bake me a beautiful cake full of sprinkles.
Cristine: Thank God I'm glad you didn't ask Ben: All right everybody thanks for tuning in Cristine: Thanks for joining us on this Taco Tuesday Ben's birthday edition
Ben: Our apologies to Markiplier We were gonna have him on as a guest today though. We we actually ran out of time. Sorry about that Yeah, I don't know if he's any good at Donkey Kong. Oh, so who cares, right? Okay, all right everybody will see you next see you next Taco Tuesday, thanks so much for watching
Cristine: We'll see y'all later bye
Beyyyyyn is my spirit aninal
Beyyyyyn
Hi beyyyyyyyyn
beyyn !! did you make any friends or enemies during the competition ?
Pls read🥺
Ben can we try to get Cristine to do 3 different nail arts from different points in her career? I just think that would be really cool to do. Or maybe even a holo taco mountain?😇😱🤷♀️
Happy Birthday Beyyyyn!! 🐵🍌
Happy birthday!!
happy birthday!!!