Do not commit the 7 Shooter's Sins - Ken Hackathorn & Bill Wilson discuss Gun Culture -Gun Guys Ep56

[Music] bill welcome to the state of idaho enjoyed having another visit here ken yeah it's it's a great chance to have you out here you know usually we film these gun guys episodes at the ranch in texas or sometimes up at barryville at the shops glad you got a chance to come out here you'll notice the scenery's a little different what you have in texas oh yeah right behind us we have us highway 93 which runs from canada to mexico wow and then also the salmon river famous salmon river which your buddy tom has been trying to get a salmon online but he's still working at it yeah and had a success yet i don't think one of the things we want to talk about today as part of the gun guys episode folks is the seven shooter sins or we call them the shooter seven sins that it's pretty common we see it all the time i saw it a lot in the training industry you see it from not only the shootings shooters world but you see it business-wise and for example one of the classic ones that i think has become really bad and we may talk about it more is this obsession of thinking about or preparing or spending money to pursue something that's called a possibility and not it's not a probability people will go to great lengths and say well hey i may need to have to make a head shot at 50 yards in a self-defense situation and the truth of the matter is is it a possibility yeah is it a probability no we know that in the real world over 90 percent of self-defense shootings regardless of occupation military law enforcement or private sector 10 yards and less heavy on less so you can spend a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of say i i'm preparing for possibilities you know you look at some of the equipment that's being sold and the guns people are carrying and you're like what in the world are you thinking about that's chasing a possibility it's not preparing for probabilities so give that some serious thought again and i i really do believe bill the internet world has contributed a lot to this what i call chasing possibilities and not very well focused on probabilities yeah i mean i think we both agree can in the in the real world you need to train with the gun that you actually carry you don't need to have a carry gun and a range gun you know you need to you need to basically train with what you carry all that within 10 yards i mean do the bulk of your training in that three three to ten yard range you know and focus on doing scenarios that could potentially be shots that you might have to make in the real world and spend most your money on ammunition yeah i mean you know once you get the the carry gun you like and you're confident it's reliable and everything like that i mean instead of buying more fancy fancy guns and optics and all this stuff i think you're better off to buy more ammo yeah and i'll give you a good example this kind of an analogy in this lots of people buying guns and they put a light on the pistol and my attitude is if your lifestyle dictates that say for example you work or or live in an area where you're going to be out at night most of the time or your whatever for example the gun that's my nightstand gun has got a light on it that makes sense that's a that's the probability if i need the gun at night i need to be able to see what i'm shooting at a target idea but to carry it every day particularly most people don't really need a light on their gun but they put it on because that's what the cool kids have yeah now you've got you know why carry something you really don't know so i there's a possibility of my knee yeah but probability is you won't yeah so okay you got one here bill and we're all we're all guilty of this when you go out to do your training do your practice uh practicing what we're good at instead of what we suck at oh you know i mean you're right we're all guilty we're all guilty of that we go out and let's let's just say for you know for example you know in my case i'm not the world's greatest weekend shooter so i don't do a lot of weekend shooting when i go training when in reality i should do a lot of it because that's what i'm that's my weak link basically on my skill level everybody's guilty of it they go out and and okay they they're good at shooting fast up closely they do a lot of shooting fast up close or whether you know somebody that's good at at accuracy stuff like you are and stuff like that probably going to practice a lot of 20-yard stuff things like that but whatever it is that's that's your kind of weakest at that's a self-defense you know uh skill you need to focus every time you go to the range and and go to practice shoot shoot those drills shoot those test those skills because you're never going to get better at it if you don't train and the comment i'm sure you've got it people say well man how do you do that so well and the answer is because you practice it exactly and yeah and i and i sadly i don't think any of us are immune from violating this particular rule i don't know yeah it's just but it's one that you got to focus on from time to time all right i got one for you bill and this is shooter send number three and again we all kind of suffer from this one and that's the importance of getting a good grip on the gun on the draw in the holster and that's followed up by a good firm firing grip man it haunts me and haunts everybody and i'm amazed the amount of people who carry guns who don't practice drawing yeah and is i tell people of all the skills that are most perishable everybody thinks about all these other things getting a good grip on the gun when you draw is a terribly perishable skill and if you don't practice it you can lose it real fast and as we both know if you screw up and get a bad grip it isn't going to get better and so i i tell everybody you're going to the range and you know for example if you guys say well i can't shoot in any place but an indoor range and i'm not allowed to draw well and that's unfortunate but you can go home unload your gun and practice dry firing from the draw at home that doesn't cost you a thing absolutely yeah and the other one which i think you and i both have talked about repeatedly and i think the guy who probably earmarked this that brought it to most of us in the shooting world's attention who really hammer on this with rob latham is getting a firm grip a lot of people don't realize that your ability to control the the movement of the gun under recoil that's all depending on how how tight a grip you get on the gun and you know let's let's face it we would all like to think that we you know we press the trigger perfect every time and we're not disturbing the sights because we got perfect trigger control well that doesn't always happen for anybody not a rob latham or you know you can or me or anybody else the firm more firm grip you got on the gun the more you get by with slapping the trigger i mean it's harder to move the sights off target when you got a really firm grip on the gun as opposed to a loose grip and the gun's flipping all around yeah and one last thing on this you know it's like if you do draw and get that perfect grip you start off and let's say we're shooting a string that's 12 shots we're shooting at no prez you know as you go along and after you did your reload or whatever the natural tendency is to relax your grip oh boy and what happens you're shooting great and then all of a sudden shots that you thought were going to go in the middle they're about four five six inches or whatever and and that happened because you relaxed your grip absolutely yeah and people ask about the grip and there's there's so much thanks to the internet and to a degree the training world they've got these people and i know it this everybody has an opinion but one of them is that you grip the handgun this kind of comes from the competition world to the degree the pistol let's say you've heard with 30 of your grip strength in the firing hand and 70 in your support or 40 and 60 whatever i don't teach that i think it's baloney and i'll tell you why first off guys well you should use 30 percent grip strength well how do you know because i don't even know what that is what it is you grip the gun as firmly as you can i tell people think of the terms if you were putting the wall nut between the heel of your hand and you're trying to crush the water you want that i call it a crush grip rob latham explains it very well and guys saw me well yeah but it i want my loose firing hand loose because i can move the trigger faster well that that's crap moving the trigger fastener rear wheel is not important it's making sure the bullet goes where it needs to so again people get us obsessed with the speed thing but the grip needs to be firm and i'm a firm believer that you use equal what i call crush on grip on the gun if i'm only shooting you know two three four shots i don't have any problems but say i'm doing a bill drill the classic build drill invariably if i get into trouble it's one of the last two or three shots in that and i don't even realize it i start relaxing you know this first one is going right where you want and you're kind of oh i got this made and then you relax just a little bit and things go south so practicing drawing and the other thing about the draw is because we're all made different and the other thing by the way as we get older i like the term as we evolve our ability to draw the gun what holster worked when i was 25 doesn't work at 75 because my shoulder doesn't rotate like it should so you probably need a holster if you can't get a natural firing grip i feel like i said well i'll adjust it as i get the gun out i know so holsters are very important and where you wear it and most importantly practice the draw so that you get that perfect grip because there you say well it's a okay grip no there's only one kind of good grip on a pistol and that's a perfect grip yeah and then one other thing you talk about having a good holster you got to have a good stiff thick belt i've seen so many people come there and say they got their brand new whatever brand sparks you know whatever really nice holster and they got it on some little flimsy belt they probably bought at walmart you know and the holes are flopping all around i mean it's critical to wear wear your gear on a good stiff belt so stuff stays stays where you put it spot on yeah okay let's talk about number four there partner you got an interesting one oh yeah that's a good one uh basically sin number four trying to buy skill you know okay well i'm gonna be better so i'm gonna buy this gun and that gun and this holster and that holster and i'm gonna evolve from iron sights to dot sights and and all that and you know in an effort to become a better shooter by just spending more money and and getting fancier gear and trying every kind of piece of gear and in the world out there you know i mean look at what a lot of the top shooters shoot as far as competition and especially what the top trainers use and and you'll see there's there's kind of correlation i mean there's there's lots of 1911's there's lots of glocks there's lots of cigs and most of them with iron sights on them it's just like pick one you know that they you that you can shoot well with and train hard with that gun and buy more ammunition instead of yep instead of another widget you know i mean all these you know name brand guns have evolved to the point now i mean they're almost all of them are good reliable they they're accurate enough for self-defense purposes and learn how to learn how to shoot it and after you put a lot of rounds down range with a specific gun let's let's say you start out with a glock 19 and like me after you know a while i realize you know i really don't like a glock because i don't like that grip angle and so i can switch to say a sig 320 for example and or walt walther ppq something like that whoever the latest new one is and well i shoot it a lot better than i do the glock and it's primarily because i'm used to the 1911 grip angle and those guns have a similar grip angle to the 1911 and i find out just a just a switch from one bass gun to another bass gun now i'm better okay now so now i really focus on training with that gun you know rather than you know i need the latest greatest holster i need now i need to put this dot side or that dot side on it or whatever you know focus on a good basic carry gun that's proven you know by trainers and in the on the street and by competition shooters and just put the rounds down range yep yep and again i don't think this is a new trend in the shooting world if you go back and look at what was going on you know back in the say the mid uh part of the 20th century you know you saw that trend a bit too i think shooters by nature will always say if i can buy skill i'll buy it and the truth matters the one way you get good and that's called practice yeah i mean that as long as your gun is it functions reliably it's it's accurate enough for the the use that you're trying to put it to you know and it has a decent trigger and decent sights on it ammo is the next next important thing buy more ammo spend more time with the range yeah yeah number five of the shooter sends that i think is probably a little bit newer generation wise is this obsession that thinking speed will make up for accuracy and i tell people there's there's kind of a backstory behind it in that what people don't realize when practical shooting started really kicked off in the 1970s colonel jeff cooper is a guy that brought practical shooting to the world mainly through the introduction of ipsy and he used a scoring system called the comstock scoring system and the comp stock scoring system is your score is divided by time to give you a a basically a points per second scoring method and the time is pretty revolutionary it has haunted us to this day and i'll tell you what the reason is i'll give you example you take the el presidente one of the best known skill drills out there and of course sadly there's probably 50 variations of them and none of them quite what cooper wanted or introduced but let's give you the classic one ten meters the three targets that are spaced three meters apart edge to edge you start with your back the targets you turn you fire two shots in each target reload two shots in each target cooper's formula was that if you shot that there was a possible 60 points if you shot it clean and you did it in 10 seconds your score divided by time would be a 6.0 and his system was you move the decimal point one point to the right so you had a score of 60. by comstock scoring system now if you shot that same drill in eight seconds you shot it clean but two seconds faster and you do the formula your score comes out at 7.5 move the decimal point 75 you got a higher score so candidly speed was more important in accuracy now if you want to take it to the nth degree which is where it's evolved now with this obsession with speed we here always hear about that quote i call it the mythical four second el prez if you shoot an el presidente in four seconds and you can drop 20 points you can four complete misses and your score divided by time gives you a 10.0 or if you move that's the point a score of 100 points with four complete misses that has followed us through the competition arena which by the way haunts everything in the shooting world today so the emphasis on shooting fast has reached a point when you've heard it it's speed and accuracy you always sure oh it's speed and accuracy no it isn't it's accuracy with speed i see it and i think it's probably one of the biggest flaws in the shooting world today is everybody wants this pursuit of speed and sadly most people give up accuracy that they should not in order to chase the speed demon we see it all the time every time whether it's at a match or or just people you know out training you are out shooting with our buddies everybody's worried about worried about speed yeah what was your time yeah it doesn't matter if you don't hit anything very well so uh what you got down for number six there oh yeah the obsession with tuning your gun to the point that doesn't work anymore you know there's a lot of these people out there that uh especially 1911 shooters you know they think the guns are gonna gonna recoil softer and they're gonna get it's gonna shoot as they say flatter it's gonna get back on target faster by running like really light recoil springs and they go to the point where they get such a light recoil spring that now they're having trouble with the gun completely closing you know a little bit of dirt in the chamber you know the rounds a little bit you know yeah a little bit out of spec or whatever like that and you know the guns dry or whatever you know in in reality the number one thing you want your gun to do is function every time you know i mean it's we all like accuracy we all like these great trigger pulls we all like great sights on our guns and all that stuff but let's face it if the gun doesn't go bang every time it's a pretty useless paperweight you know and if you start out with a gun that's reliable and you start [ __ ] with it you know changing this changing that you know lighter hammer spring to try to get a lot of trigger pull you know a lot of recoil spring to try to get the gun to shoot flatter whatever make it easier to chamber rounds or you know whatever your purpose is you know it's it's all a detriment of reliability you know when you know in reliability and it really doesn't matter what the platform is on a semi-auto handgun the recoil spring you want in the gun is the heaviest spring that you can have in that gun and you can shoot that gun weak handed with a reasonably loose grip and the gun always at you with fire with one round the magazine the gun always goes to slide stop you know but you got to go to slide lock every time so so you test it with the weakest grip you're ever going to fire the gun with and if it goes to slide lock with the load that you that you're shooting then you're good to go and you know the heaviest spring that you can that will pass that test makes the gun function better throughout i mean you know the heavier recoil spring you got i mean the more force it's got to pick up that round of the magazine and get it in the chamber yeah you know and and that's your spot on most these guys are concerned about softening the recoil stroke of the gun the really recoil springs got two jobs one is to kind of slow down the slide coming back but post people realize it really doesn't [ __ ] that much actually the caming action of copping the cocking the hammer is more slowing the gun coming back than recoil spring what his real job is is chambering a fresh round when getting the gun into battery and when these guys can start cutting springs they don't seem to grasp that the i'll give you a good interesting analogy when i first started this business like you it was a 1911 world in the 1911s of say the 1970s and 80s and stuff you had colt and then springfield armor were the major vendors and let's be honest they weren't building the best guns historically they were a lot of issues and so i can remember you can too malfunctions were really a common problem and part of the problem was guys like i'm going to tune my gun and the class we went out i've always said dremel tools should require a 200 tax stamp from the batf to possess because remember how everybody get i'm going to throat my gun well most of the threat problems had nothing to do with why it wasn't working it was other issues shitty magazines back then and extractor problems but i i went through you know let's say some a number of decades where in the training was business you saw guys with 1911's and classes and a lot of them didn't work and hence the guns got a reputation being terribly unreliable now fast forward when i quit training the last say five years in the training business probably the last decade i was using the glock because that's what the world uses i was teaching a glock 19 or 17 or whatever that's you use what the students use i started to see and you see it a lot now the 1911s that weren't reliable is being replaced by the clocks aren't reliable not because it's not a reliable gun it's because these guys tune them oh i'm going to change springs i'm going to change the striker spring to get a lighter trigger pull i'm going to start making changes and i now see glocks that go click instead of bang on a pretty regular basis because somebody put aftermarket parts and tuned it so they make it work better and they don't so now it's not uncommon particularly in the training class a lot of glock and there's gonna be a lot of glocks that don't go bang for and it's not because there's any wrong design if you take the gun out of the box probably one of the most reliable guns in the world but after the guys tune them not so much so shooter sin number seven is kind of an interesting last one and we both have some views on on this but the classic one is people choosing these are guys that are in the shooters world but they choose and carry guns more as a lucky charm as a talisman they don't really think they're ever going to need it so i'm going to take a gun that for example smaller is better for concealment and they will always compromise for smaller in order to get something that's easier to carry and the bottom line is they kind of regard a gun as like a rabbit's foot it's my good luck charm i don't really think i'm going to need it and the problem with that is they don't practice with it and they hardly ever get any training yeah and then the follow-up to that is the real reason behind that is deep down i said i'll probably never need it and that we know can be pretty false and the fall upon that is well i probably never need it but if i do i'll be able to rise the occasion and do what's necessary yeah i'm going to shoot better than i would had i've been training just because of the stress of the situation i'm going to be i'm going to be john wick when the time comes yeah and i don't think this is a new phenomenon i mean look at this search for small little what i call pocket rockets now mind you the marketplace has produced some real good ones and i think the one we all would kind of look up to is i mean sig sauer when they come out with that little 365 they hit that one out of the park oh yeah however what we all know is little guns aren't easy to shoot well yeah it's a lot harder to see well with a 365 than it is a 320. yeah and it's like a smith j frames we all carried them back in the day there's hard guns to shoot well yeah oh yeah and so consequently i always tell people you got to kind of look for what's the balance a gun you actually can shoot well versus a gun that's easy to carry and when that really comes down to comfort yeah if it's not comfortable you won't carry it so the pursuit of finding a gun that is easy to carry and comfortable yet something you shoot effectively is is a evolving process and i think if you in your case if you look at the for example the x9 family you've evolved that way because of your own personal experiences that the original sf x9 a little compact gun was kind of your effort to say this does both it gives me a gun i can shoot really well and it's a gun that's comfortable to carry concealed let's face it any any gun that's that's smaller than a glock 19 size gun is not the easiest gun in the world to shoot you know i mean there's a huge difference in how well even well-trained people can shoot a glock 19 size gun and they can shoot like a sig 365 size gun i mean if you're going to carry a 365 size gun especially the one with a short sight radius it just takes a little more training to be really proficient with it as opposed to a gun that's that's more glock 19 or you know one of our edc x9 size guns sorry folks i'm just getting over the china virus and i've still got this terrible chest congestion you mean the kung flu the kung flu yeah and i've always said if you practice with anything you can get good with it the problem is you know the shooter's sin number seven is they choose guns for comfort and they don't practice and they don't train with them and man that's a bad combination that's a bad combination so the shooter seven sins again all of us suffer from to some degree so think about it how does it apply to you and again the bottom takeaway from this if you don't practice you're gonna pay a price for it so take it to the range think about it make it work and oh by the way as you guys know don't be afraid to make a comment let us know what you think questions you might have information you're interested in and we'll try to address it and bring you the information and the insight that you're looking for in the meantime practice stay safe we'll see you down the road [Music] so [Music] you

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Id: TGRxFVeW6w8

Length: 26min 0sec (1560 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 07 2022