>DO ANGELS AND DEMONS EXIST? TWO-THIRDS OF ALL AMERICANS NOT ONLY BELIEVE THAT ANGELS AND DEMONS DO EXIST, BUT ALSO THAT THEY ARE ACTIVE IN THE WORLD. SKEPTICS ARE DUMBFOUNDED BY SUCH ARCHAIC NONSENSE. TO BELIEVE IN NON-PHYSICAL BEINGS IN TODAY'S WORLD, SOULS OR SPIRITS WITHOUT BODIES OR BRAINS MAY SEEM, WELL, INCREDIBLE. BUT THERE ARE SERIOUS SCHOLARS WHO TAKE ANGELS AND DEMONS SERIOUSLY. WHY? CERTAINLY NON-PHYSICAL BEINGS WOULD CHALLENGE THE SCIENTIFIC WORLD VIEW THAT ONLY THE PHYSICAL IS REAL. CERTAINLY ANGELS AND DEMONS, IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER, POPULATE MOST OF THE WORLD'S RELIGIONS. BUT DO ANGELS AND DEMONS REALLY EXIST? I'M ROBERT LAWRENCE KUHN AND CLOSER TO TRUTH IS MY JOURNEY TO FIND OUT. I START AT BIOLA UNIVERSITY IN LOS ANGELES WITH A VERY SMART BELIEVER. JP MORELAND, A CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHER. I'M SURE JP WILL DEFEND ANGELS AND DEMONS, BUT HOW? >>JP I AM GOING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION THAT ORDINARILY I WOULDN'T DO IN POLITE INTELLECTUAL CIRCLES. >LET'S HAVE IT. >>AND THAT IS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ANGELS, DEMONS EXIST? >I DON'T BELIEVE THEY EXIST, I KNOW THEY EXIST. AND THERE ARE TWO REASONS AND THE FIRST ONE IS THAT I AM CONVINCED THAT CHRISTIANITY IS TRUE, SO THIS IS A SYSTEM DEPENDENT BELIEF. IF CHRISTIANITY IS TRUE AND JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD THEN ANGELS ARE REAL. AND SECONDLY THERE ARE JUST TOO MANY CREDIBLE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD ENCOUNTERS WITH ANGELS AND DEMONS, TO DISMISS IT. I MYSELF HAD AN ENCOUNTER WITH THREE ANGELS. I WENT TO A CHURCH TWO YEARS AGO TO SPEAK AND A WOMAN CAME UP TO ME AFTERWARDS AND SAID DOCTOR MORELAND, YOU'RE GOING TO THINK I'M CRAZY BUT I'M TELLING YOU THAT WHILE YOU WERE SPEAKING THERE WERE THREE ANGELS. TWO WERE STANDING ON EITHER SIDE, THERE WAS A THIRD ONE TALLER THAN YOU STANDING OVER YOUR HEAD AND THEY HAD WHITE ROBES BUT I COULDN'T SEE FACES IN THEM. AND I THOUGHT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH MA'AM, YOU'RE A VERY DEAR PERSON. LET ME GET OUT OF HERE. EIGHT TO TEN MONTHS LATER I WAS GOING THROUGH A VERY DIFFICULT EMOTIONAL TIME AND I WAS LAYING IN BED ONE NIGHT AND I SAID LORD JESUS, I DON'T KNOW IF THOSE ANGELS WERE REAL OR NOT BUT IF THEY WERE REAL WOULD YOU SEND THEM BACK TO ME AND WOULD YOU LET ME KNOW THEY ARE HERE, TO COMFORT ME. ROBERT, LESS THAN A WEEK LATER I GET AN E-MAIL FROM ONE OF MY GRADUATE STUDENTS. THIS GUY IS A GRADUATE STUDENT IN PHILOSOPHY, HIS WIFE IS DOING A PHD IN PHILOSOPHY, HE IS A RATIONAL GUY. HE SENDS ME AN E-MAIL AND SAYS DOCTOR MORELAND, I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING AND I DON'T KNOW HOW TO TELL YOU THIS. THREE DAYS AGO IN CLASS, FOR TEN TO FIFTEEN MINUTES I SAW THREE ANGELS STANDING AROUND YOU. THERE WAS ONE ON EITHER SIDE OF YOU, THERE WAS ONE STANDING BEHIND YOU THAT WAS LOOKING OVER YOUR HEAD AND TALLER THAN YOU ARE, AND I KNOW FOR SURE I SAW THEM. WELL I MEAN I WAS BLOWN AWAY. I NEVER TOLD ANYBODY ABOUT THIS PRAYER REQUEST. >>DON'T THESE ANGELS EVER WANT TO HAVE DIFFERENT POSITIONS? THEY ARE ALWAYS, THEY ARE REQUIRED TO BE IN THE SAME PLACE? >WELL ACTUALLY WHAT WAS INTERESTING WAS THAT IF YOU WERE SIMPLY MAKING THIS UP, NUMBER ONE I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU EXPLAIN THE COINCIDENCE WITH THE FACT THAT I HAD JUST ASKED GOD ABOUT, TO ANSWER THAT PRAYER LESS THAN A WEEK EARLIER. >>DID YOU EVER TELL ANYBODY ABOUT YOUR ENCOUNTER WITH THE WOMAN PREVIOUSLY? >NO I NEVER TOLD A PERSON. >>DID ANYBODY OVERHEAR HER TELL YOU THAT? >NO BECAUSE THAT WAS UP IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON AND ALL OF THIS IS DOWN IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. >>IF THIS REALLY OCCURRED, AND I'M NOT DISPUTING A FIRST PERSON ACCOUNT OF ANYTHING, I CERTAINLY BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE IT. BUT I HAVE TO TELL YOU HONESTLY THAT THIS DOES NOT MOVE ME ONE NANOMETER IN TERMS OF MY BELIEF OR NON-BELIEF IN THIS. IF THIS IS REAL, IF THIS IS SOMETHING THAT GOD DOES, WHY ISN'T IT DONE MORE OFTEN? OR WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE? YOU CAN'T DEAL WITH ONE ANECDOTE BECAUSE STATISTICALLY THERE IS SO MANY DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES OF THINGS HAPPENING. >ROBERT, IF YOU GO THAT ROUTE YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO CONCLUDE THAT A PERSON IS INTELLIGENT IN COMMUNICATING WITH YOU. >>LOOK, THIS IS IT, WE'LL END THE ARGUMENT. >WE'LL LET IT GO. >>LET'S GO ON AND TAKE YOUR ASSUMPTION THAT ANGELS AND DEMONS DO EXIST. >YES. >>SO NOW, WHAT ARE THE PURPOSES OF THESE ANGELS? WHAT ARE THEY DOING? >THEY'RE PERSONS, THEY HAVE LIVES, THEY ARE INVOLVED IN THIS WORLD, THEY'RE INVOLVED IN INTERACTING WITH GOD. IT IS ACTUALLY THE CASE THAT CHILDREN HAVE GUARDIAN ANGELS. THIS ISN'T MAKE BELIEVE. THIS IS REAL. AND ANGELS DO PROTECT CHILDREN. NOW THERE IS EVIL IN THIS WORLD AND SO IT'S NOT ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. >>WELL IT SEEMS LIKE THEY ARE DOING AN AWFUL JOB. >BUT THAT'S BASED ON YOUR ASSUMPTION OF WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE IF THEY WEREN'T ON THE JOB. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. >>WELL LOOK AT THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA. WHAT ARE THOSE ANGELS DOING? >WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE IF THEY WEREN'T INVOLVED? >>WHY AREN'T THEY FEEDING THESE PEOPLE? >YOU ARE MAKING AN ASSUMPTION BASED UPON COMPARISON WITH WHAT THE WORLD WOULD BE LIKE IF THEY WEREN'T INVOLVED. >>I CAN'T IMAGINE IT WORSE IN SOME OF THOSE PLACES. >WELL THEN YOU NEED TO GO OVER IN AFRICA AND TALK TO AFRICANS BECAUSE THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT THEY HAVE SEEN ANGELS AND THAT THEY HAVE HELPED THEM TREMENDOUSLY. >>IF THEY HAD MORE FOOD THEY WOULDN'T SEE SO MANY ANGELS. >THAT, NOW THAT IS AN ADD HUM IN AN ARGUMENT AND YOU KNOW IT. BY THE WAY ONE OF THE REASONS I BELIEVE IN DEMONS IS BECAUSE I HAVE, I KNOW MEN WITH PHD'S, WHO HAVE - >>TELL ME, I HAVE A PHD, IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. CRAZY PEOPLE HAVE PHD'S. >NO, WELL STAY WITH ME. I AM TRYING TO SAY THAT THESE AREN'T HYSTERICAL PEOPLE THAT GRAB ANYTHING THAT COMES ALONG. >>IS THERE A FINITE NUMBER OF ANGELS? >YES. >>ABOUT HOW MANY? >I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA. >>IS IT MORE THAN A HUNDRED? >YES. >>IS IT LESS THAN A TRILLION? >YES. >>OKAY, FAIR ENOUGH. >I LIKE JP. HE'S FUN AS WELL AS SMART. NEITHER MAKES HIM RIGHT, OF COURSE. IF HE HARBORS DOUBTS, I COULDN'T FIND THEM. NORMALLY I WOULD NOW GO TO A SKEPTIC. BUT I ALREADY KNOW WHAT THEY WOULD SAY. I PREFER TO EXPLORE THE THINKING BEHIND SUCH BELIEFS, HOW BELIEVERS EXPLAIN ANGELS AND DEMONS. I'LL GET A CATHOLIC PERSPECTIVE. I GO TO NOTRE DAME TO SPEAK WITH THOMAS FLINT, EDITOR OF THE SCHOLARLY JOURNAL FAITH AND PHILOSOPHY. I ASKED TOM HOW A PHILOSOPHER OF RELIGION WOULD ASSESS ANGELS AND DEMONS. >>IT SEEMS TO ME TO BE PERFECTLY PLAUSIBLE TO BELIEVE THAT ANGELS AND DEMONS EXIST. I MEAN NOT PERHAPS WITH ALL OF THE CULTURAL TRAPPINGS THAT WE SEE IN MOTION PICTURES AND IMAGES OF BEINGS AND LONG ROBES, WITH WINGS ON THE BACK AND SO ON. BEINGS WHO ARE SPIRITUAL BEINGS, BEINGS WHO HAVE SOMETHING AKIN TO A HUMAN SOUL BUT NOT A PHYSICAL BODY CONNECTED WITH IT, IT SEEMS ENTIRELY REASONABLE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD WOULD CREATE SUCH THINGS. IF WE THINK OF HUMANS IN THE TRADITIONAL WAY OF HAVING A BODY AND HAVING A SOUL, THERE SEEMS TO BE A LARGE DISTANCE BETWEEN US AND GOD, LOTS OF POSSIBILITIES FOR BEINGS TO CREATE. SOME OF THESE MIGHT BE OTHER BEINGS THAT MIGHT HAVE BODY AND SOUL AS WELL. AND MAYBE THERE ARE SOME WHICH ARE SUPERIOR TO HUMANS IN CERTAIN WAYS, INTELLECTUALLY, PHYSICALLY, ALL KINDS OF POSSIBILITIES THERE. THERE DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE ANY IMPOSSIBILITY, THOUGH, IN THERE BEING PERSONS, FREE INDIVIDUALS, WHO DON'T HAVE BODIES, DON'T HAVE PHYSICAL BODIES. AND THAT OF COURSE IS BASICALLY WHAT AN ANGEL OR A DEMON IS. AN ANGEL IS SIMPLY A FINITE NON-PHYSICAL PERSON WHO HAS, SO TO SPEAK, DECIDED FOR GOD AND A DEMON IS SIMPLY A NON-PHYSICAL FINITE PERSON WHO HAS DECIDED AGAINST GOD, WHO HAS REBELLED AGAINST GOD. I MEAN IF ANYTHING IT WOULD BE, IT WOULD BE VERY SURPRISING I THINK IF GOD HADN'T CREATED ANYTHING LOWER THAN HIMSELF BUT HIGHER THAN US. >AND THE EXISTENCE OF THESE ANGELS AND DEMONS IN GOD'S PLAN, WOULD HAVE BEEN KNOWN BY GOD, FROM BEFORE HE CREATED THEM? >>WE'RE LARGELY SPECULATING THERE. >SURE, SURE. >>I MEAN THE TRADITIONS SUGGEST THAT THERE ARE SOME RELATIONS AT LEAST BETWEEN THE LIFE OF ANGELS, LET'S SAY, AND THE LIFE OF HUMANS HERE ON EARTH. THERE ARE MANY BIBLICAL EXAMPLES OF COURSE, OF GOD SENDING ANGELS AS HIS MESSENGERS TO HUMANS, TO INFORM THEM OF SOMETHING, REMIND THEM OF SOMETHING. THERE IS A LONG TRADITION, AT LEAST WITHIN CATHOLICISM, OF GUARDIAN ANGELS OF GOD, ASSIGNING ANGELS TO EACH INDIVIDUAL TO TRY TO HELP THEM TO DEVELOP SPIRITUALLY AND TO COME CLOSER TO GOD. AND OF COURSE THERE IS ALSO THE LONG TRADITION OF DEMONS BEING CONNECTED WITH HUMANS IN A WAY, WHICH IS MUCH MORE HARMFUL, THAT WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO, IS TO GET US TO REBEL AGAINST GOD IN THE SAME WAY THAT THEY HAVE REBELLED AGAINST GOD. >NOW THE REBELLION OF DEMONS WAS PART OF GOD'S ORIGINAL PLAN? THAT HE KNEW WHEN HE CHOSE THE POSSIBLE WORLD TO ACTUALIZE? >>WELL I WOULD THINK IT HAD TO BE PART OF HIS PLAN, IN THE SENSE THAT GOD IS OMNISCIENT. IT WAS SOMETHING HE WAS WILLING TO ACCEPT, SOMETHING HE WAS WILLING TO PERMIT, FOR SOME GOOD REASON. NOW OFTEN WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE GOOD REASON IS, WHY GOD PERMITS EVIL, BUT AS CHRISTIANS WE HAVE THIS FAITH, WE HAVE THIS CONFIDENCE, THAT THERE IS A GOOD REASON, THAT SOMETHING WAS BEING ACHIEVED, BY PERMITTING THIS KIND OF EVIL. SO I THINK ONE THING THAT IT TELLS US IS THAT OUR GOOD GOD IS ONE WHO ACKNOWLEDGES, KNOWS THAT THIS EVIL IS GOING TO OCCUR IF HE CREATES CERTAIN CREATURES AND CERTAIN SITUATIONS, AND IS WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT AND SEIZE SO THAT GREAT GOOD CAN COME OUT OF IT. >TOM'S RATIONAL ACCOUNT OF ANGELS AND DEMONS SEEMS SO AT ODDS WITH BOTH OBJECTIVE SCIENCE AND TABLOID FOOLISHNESS. BUT IT'S A MISTAKE TO ASSUME THAT THE EXISTENCE OF NON-PHYSICAL BEINGS DEPENDS NO RELIGIOUS INTERPRETATIONS. I HEAD OFF TO THE INSTITUTE OF NOETIC SCIENCES, NEAR SAN FRANCISCO, TO MEAN DEAN RADIN, A LEADING RESEARCHER IN EXTRA-SENSORY PERCEPTION. I HEAR DEAN HAS RATHER DIFFERENT IDEAS OF ANGELS AND DEMONS. >>DEAN, FROM AN ESP POINT OF VIEW, AND LOOKING AT A LOT OF ANECDOTAL PHENOMENA THAT PEOPLE REPORT SEEING ANGELS AND BEING DEMON POSSESSED AND ALL OF THIS, HOW HAVE YOU ANALYZED THAT DATA? >I VIEW IT AS A PROJECTION OF THE UNCONSCIOUS. SO YOU DON'T NEED TO GO TOO FAR IN TO THE ESP WORLD TO THINK ABOUT WHY PEOPLE PERSIST IN BELIEVING IN SUCH THINGS. BUT IF YOU DID TAKE A STEP INTO THE ESP WORLD THEN YOU COULD SAY WELL IF THERE WAS SOME KIND OF INTER-SUBJECTIVE REALITY, A REALITY THAT WE CREATE BETWEEN OURSELVES BY SHARING THOUGHTS, SHARING FEELINGS, WHATEVER, THEN YOU COULD IMAGINE THAT A WORLD WHERE EVERYBODY WAS ACTUALLY PRETTY COMPASSIONATE AND KIND TO EACH OTHER AND SO ON, BUT THERE IS A VERY DEEP PART OF US AS WELL, THE PART WHICH IS SELF DEFEATING, THE PART WHICH SMOKES AND DRINKS WHEN WE KNOW WE SHOULDN'T SMOKE AND DRINK. SO WHAT HAPPENS THEN IF THERE IS SOME DEEP, DARK PART OF OURSELVES, THE SHADOW SIDE AS SOME PSYCHO THERAPISTS MIGHT SAY, THAT BEGINS TO PROJECT OUT INTO A SHARED WORLD, A SHARED INTER SUBJECTED WORLD. >>SO LET ME SEE IF I UNDERSTAND THIS BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO SEE GUARDIAN ANGELS OR PEOPLE WHO ARE SO-CALLED DEMON POSSESSED AND HAVE TO BE EXORCISED IN SOME RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS OR WHATEVER, YOU WOULD SAY THOSE ARE NOT JUST PSYCHOLOGICAL PHENOMENA THAT THEY HAVE THEMSELVES, SO YOU BELIEVE THERE COULD BE IN SOME OF THOSE CASES, SOMETHING MORE THAN JUST A PSYCHOLOGICAL PROCESS? >IT'S A NATURAL EXTENSION OF THE IDEA THAT, THAT YOU ARE NOT LOCKED INSIDE YOUR HEAD. AND THAT THE MOMENT YOU MAKE THE LEAP OF FAITH, OR MAYBE THE LEAP OF EVIDENCE, THAT OUR INTENTIONS AFFECT THE WORLD AROUND US AND AFFECT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK, TO SOME DEGREE. THEN IT'S NOT THAT YOU LITERALLY CAN PROJECT LIKE A SOLID INDEPENDENT ENTITY OUT THERE THAT SOMEBODY MIGHT CALL A DEMON BUT ON THE OTHER HAND YOU MIGHT CREATE A SHARED MENTAL SPACE IN WHICH IT SEEMS VERY REAL. IT WILL SEEM JUST AS REAL AS A HARD TABLE WOULD SEEM, BUT IT'S DIFFERENT IN TYPE. LET'S TAKE FOR EXAMPLE THE, THE ISSUE OF HAUNTING AND GHOSTS AS A KIND OF INDEPENDENT ENTITY. >>RIGHT. >SO THE BASIC CONCEPT IS FOR ONE TO SORT OF GET RID OF THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EXPLANATIONS. PEOPLE GO TO A PLACE AND THEY EXPERIENCE WEIRD THINGS. AND SOMETIMES THEY ACTUALLY WILL SEE A CHARACTER OF SOME TYPE. WELL WHERE DID THAT COME FROM? ASSUMING THAT THE REPORTS ARE REAL. AND PERHAPS HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF PEOPLE ALL PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO A GIVEN SPACE, WILL CHANGE IT IN SOME WAY. AND SO WHEN SOMEBODY NEW COMES ALONG IN THAT VICINITY, MAYBE THEY RESONATE IN SOME WAY WITH ALL OF THESE INTENTIONS GOING BACK INTO THE PAST. >>IS IT REALLY A CHANGING THE MANIFESTATION OF WHAT WE CALL THE PHYSICAL WORLD OR IS IT SOME WINDOW INTO AN ETHEREAL WORLD? >AND THE SIBE IS, WE SAY THAT IT IS A PLACE MEMORY. IT IS A PHYSICAL CHANGE SO AT AN INFORMATIONAL LEVEL, THE PHYSICAL SUBSTRAIGHT, LIKE THE GRANITE WALL OF A CASTLE FOR EXAMPLE, PHYSICALLY CHANGES IN SOME WAY AND IT STORES INFORMATION. AND SO WHEN SOMEBODY COMES IN THE VICINITY OF THAT INFORMATION, THEY PICK IT UP. >>AND THIS WOULD BE THE RESULT OF THIS COMBINED INTER-SUBJECTIVITY POWER? >THAT'S ONE WAY OF THINKING OF IT, YUP. >>IS THERE ANOTHER WAY? >WELL, THAT SEEMS TO BE THE MOST LIKELY REASON THAT, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, BUT I'M THINKING MORE OR LESS FROM A PHYSICALIST SCIENCE PERSPECTIVE. >>RIGHT. >THE ALTERNATIVE IS THAT THERE REALLY IS SOMETHING THERE, YOU KNOW SO FROM A SPIRITUAL PERSPECTIVE YOU MIGHT THINK THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY SOME KIND OF ACTUAL ENTITY WHICH HAS GOTTEN STOPPED THERE. WHAT I AM SUGGESTING HERE IS NOT SO UNUSUAL ACTUALLY. THERE IS A LINE OF THOUGHT THAT SAYS THAT THERE IS SOMETHING LIKE A COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS, THEN THAT SHOULD HAVE ASPECTS OF TELEPATHY, IT MIGHT HAVE ASPECTS OF PSYCHO KINESIS. IT WOULD HAVE IN A LARGE WAY, WHAT WE EXPERIENCE IN A SMALL WAY AS ESP. WELL, WHAT IS REALLY LARGE ESP GOING TO LOOK LIKE? ANGELS, ALIENS, AND DEMONS. >>DEAN SUGGESTS THAT WHAT ARE CALLED ANGELS AND DEMONS MAY NOT BE THE CREATION OF SOME GOD, BUT RATHER THE MANIFESTATIONS OF ESP. COULD OUR COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS BRING SUCH STRANGE STUFF INTO EXISTENCE? THIS IS MORE BIZARRE, AND MORE FUN, THAN I HAD REALIZED. BUT I HAVE HAD JUST ABOUT ENOUGH. I RELENT, I NEED A SKEPTIC. WALTER SINNOTT-ARMSTRONG IS PROFESSOR AT DARTMOUTH AND A SLAYER OF ALL THINGS NON-PHYSICAL. I ASK WALTER HOW TO DEAL WITH VARIOUS KINDS OF SPIRITS. >WELL HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THEM? WE DEAL WITH THEM THE SAME WAY THAT WE DEAL WITH FAIRIES AND GNOMES IN THE GARDEN AND THERE IS JUST NO REASON TO BELIEVE IN ANY KIND OF NON-PHYSICAL CREATURES. THE STORIES ABOUT THEM ARE INCONSISTENT. THEY ARE NON-PHYSICAL BUT THEY HAVE WINGS. I MEAN THEY ARE, IT IS AMAZING THAT PEOPLE CAN CONTINUE TO BELIEVE WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY PROBLEMS WITH THE BELIEVING IN THAT. NOW CAN YOU PROVE THAT THEY DON'T EXIST? OF COURSE NOT. BUT THEN YOU ARE LEFT WITH JUST NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO BELIEVE IN THEM. YOU MIGHT AS WELL BELIEVE IN LINUS' GREAT PUMPKIN IN THE FAMOUS PEANUTS CARTOON. >>IT IS OBVIOUSLY A LARGE CONTINGENT OF HUMANITY IN DIFFERENT CULTURES THAT CLAIM TO HAVE SEEN VARIOUS KINDS OF BEINGS LIKE THIS. >RIGHT. AND ALSO THAT HAVE SEEN GHOSTS AND FAIRIES AND ELVES AND SO ON. BUT THE FACT THAT MANY PEOPLE CLAIM TO HAVE SEEN THEM, SHOULDN'T CONVINCE US THAT THEY REALLY DO EXIST, BECAUSE PEOPLE CLAIM TO SEE ALL KINDS OF THINGS. SOMETIMES THEY ARE PERFECTLY HONEST AND THEY REALLY DO THINK THAT THOSE THINGS EXIST. MANY PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO SEE GHOSTS, THEY REALLY THOUGHT THERE WAS A GHOST IN THE CORNER. THEY LOOKED OVER THERE AND THERE SEEMED TO BE A SHADOWY, WAVY TYPE OF CREATURE IN THE THING. I'M NOT, YOU KNOW. I'M NOT DENYING THAT THEY ARE BEING HONEST. THERE ARE THESE LITTLE THINGS IN YOUR EYES, AT LEAST I'VE GOT THEM, THAT ARE FLOATERS, THAT SEEM TO FLOAT OUT THERE. AND I MEAN WHEN YOU GET SCARED ONE OF THOSE FLOATERS MIGHT LOOK LIKE A GHOST. >>THE ARGUMENT IS THAT VARIOUS CULTURES THAT REALLY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ONE ANOTHER IN TERMS OF THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM, AND SOMETIMES EVEN THEIR INTERACTIONS, SO MANY CULTURES HAVE THIS AS PART OF THEM. THEY ARE THE SAME KINDS OF NON-PHYSICAL BEINGS THAT ARE SO PERVASIVE. >WELL THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENCES AS WELL WHICH CAN BE EXPLAINED BY CULTURAL FACTORS. AND THE SIMILARITIES ARE EXPLAINED BY THE SIMILARITIES IN MOTIVATION. SO ALL CULTURES ARE GOING TO HAVE A MOTIVATION TO BELIEVE IN DEMONS OF SOME SORT THAT LEAD HUMANS ASTRAY. IT IS GOING TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES AND THEIR FRIENDS AND FAMILY. THAT'S NOT GOING TO VARY FROM CULTURE TO CULTURE, AND THAT'S GOING TO PRODUCE MANY SIMILARITIES IN THE WAY IN WHICH WE THINK ABOUT THOSE CREATURES, BUT THERE ARE STILL VAST DIFFERENCES CREATED BY CULTURES IN THE WAYS THESE DEMONS ARE CONCEIVED. >>WALTER OFFERS PHYSICAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL, AND CULTURAL EXPLANATIONS OF WHY A FALSE BELIEF IN ANGELS AND DEMONS WOULD ARISE. BUT RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS ARE SO STRONG, WHAT'S THE BIBLICAL BASIS FOR BELIEF IN ANGELS AND DEMONS? I ASK BIBLICAL EXPERT JAMES TABOR, AUTHOR OF THE JESUS DYNASTY. >JIM, WHAT CAN WE SAY ABOUT THE EMBEDDING OF ANGELS AND DEMONS IN THE HISTORY OF RELIGIONS? >>WELL WHAT WE CAN KNOW HISTORICALLY IS QUITE AMAZING. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW THIS TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE THAT I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR OVER A DECADE, THE ORIGINAL BIBLE PROJECT? DO YOU KNOW THAT IN THE ENTIRE HEBREW BIBLE I WILL NOT EVEN HAVE THE WORD 'ANGEL' ANYWHERE? AND THE REASON IS THAT ALL OF THOSE TRANSLATIONS THAT YOU READ IN ENGLISH ABOUT ANGELS APPEARING, IT'S THE WORD "MALACH" WHICH MEANS MESSENGER, AND EVEN THOUGH IN SOME CASES THEY ARE ENTITIES FROM GOD'S SIDE OF THINGS, YOU KNOW SPIRITUAL ENTITIES, THE WORD 'ANGEL' I THINK IS EXTREMELY MISLEADING BECAUSE THE WORD IS ALSO USED FOR MESSENGERS, IF KING DAVID SENDS MESSENGERS TO TELL SAL SOMETHING, IT'S THE SAME WORD. SO IT DOESN'T HAVE THAT CONNOTATION OF THE WINGED CREATURES, BENEVOLENTLY WATCHING OVER, IN THE HEBREW BIBLE. 'DEMON' DOESN'T OCCUR AT ALL, NEVER. THERE IS ONE STORY ABOUT A BEING IN THE HEAVENLY COURT, THE KIND OF, GOD SITS WITH THESE BEINGS AND AND ONE OF THEM SAYS LET ME BE A LYING SPIRIT IN THE MOUTH OF THIS PROPHET, ALMOST LIKE LET ME GO PLAY THIS TRICK. BUT HE'S NOT A DEMON. SO ALTHOUGH THE ANCIENT HEBREWS BELIEVED IN THESE, IN ENTITIES BEYOND THIS WORLD, IT WASN'T THICKLY POPULATED SO THAT EVIL IS EXPLAINED BY THESE DEMONS. SO WHAT HAPPENS, AS YOU GET IN TO THE LATER PERIOD, THE HELLENISTIC WORLD, WITH MANY OTHER IDEAS THAT CORRELATE WITH ANGELS AND DEMONS YOU GET THIS SENSE OF PESSIMISM THAT WHY IS THERE WAR? WHY IS THERE DISEASE? WHY IS THERE SO MUCH INJUSTICE? WHY IS THERE SO MUCH SUFFERING? THERE HAS TO BE MORE OF AN EXPLANATION THAN JUST FATE OR THAT'S THE WAY IT IS, AND I THINK IT WAS VERY CONVENIENT FOR PEOPLE TO IMAGINE THAT IF THERE IS SICKNESS, IT'S BECAUSE THERE IS A DEMON. THERE IS A BIT OF THAT IN THE HEBREW BIBLE, BUT WHEN YOU OPEN UP THE NEW TESTAMENT YOU ARE SETTLING IN THAT WORLD, WHERE ALMOST JESUS' WHOLE CAREER AND ACTIVITY, CASTING OUT DEMONS, HEALING THE SICK, SOMEBODY WHO IS CRIPPLED, IT'S BECAUSE SATAN HAS BOUND THIS PERSON FOR SO MANY YEARS AND SO FORTH. THERE IS NO HELL, EVER BURNING HELL, AND THERE IS NOT THIS WHOLE SET UP OF COSMOLOGY THAT YOU LATER GET WITH CHRISTIANITY, JUDAISM, AND ISLAM. SO WHAT YOU HAVE TO ASK - >CERTAINLY LATER JUDAISM HAS ALL OF THAT. >>IT HAS ALL OF THAT. >JUST LIKE CHRISTIANITY. >>SO FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU ON A QUEST THAT WANTS TO COMBINE THE HISTORY WITH THE SCIENCE, A REAL QUESTION YOU'VE GOT TO FACE - >I JUST WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH. I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU COMBINE WITH ANYTHING. I JUST WANT TO KNOW - >>I THINK THE DEMONICALLY POPULATED WORLD, THICK AS FLIES, CAUSING EVERYTHING WITH SATAN AT THE HELM, WITH THOUSANDS OF MYRIADS OF ANGELS AND HELL AND ALL OF THIS, IS A COMPARATIVELY LATE DEVELOPMENT AND PROBABLY TELLS US VERY LITTLE ABOUT THE COSMOS AS IT EXISTS. IT'S THIS ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN THE WORLD WITH ALL OF ITS PROBLEMS AND TROUBLE, IN SOME TRANSCENDENT, SENSIBLE WAY, TO MAKE EVERYTHING COME OUT OKAY, AND EXPLAIN BASICALLY WHY THERE IS SUCH EVIL. >MOST HUMAN BEINGS BELIEVE IN ANGELS AND DEMONS. ACROSS DIVERSE CULTURES, NON-PHYSICAL BEINGS IN GREAT NUMBERS AND VARIETY FLY FREELY IN PEOPLE'S IMAGINATIONS. HOW TO EXPLAIN SUCH ROBUST AND BROAD-BASED BELIEF, IT DEPENDS ON ONE'S WORLD VIEW. NATURALISTS REJECT THE REALITY OF ALL SUCH CLAIMS, CITING PERSONAL ILLUSION, MASS DELUSION, AND CULTURAL VIRUSES AS UNDERLYING CAUSES. THOUGH NOT PREVALENT IN THE HEBREW BIBLE, ANGELS AND DEMONS ARE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE. REAL BEINGS CREATED BY GOD AS PART OF GOD'S GRAND MASTER PLAN. THE RADICAL ALTERNATIVE, ADVOCATED BY ESP RESEARCHERS, IS THAT ANGELS AND DEMONS ARE MANIFESTATIONS OF THE PARANORMAL, SUCH AS COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS OR PLACE MEMORY. SURELY ANGELS AND DEMONS HELP US UNDERSTAND THE HUMAN PSYCHE. BUT ARE THEY MORE? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT ANGELS AND DEMONS COULD WING US CLOSER TO TRUTH?
