<i>>I SEEK CONSCIOUSNESS SO</i> <i>I EXPLORE DREAMS.</i> <i>DREAMS ARE AN ALTERED STATE</i> <i>OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND DREAMS</i> <i>ARE BIZARRE.</i> <i>WALKING STREETS WITH NO SHOES</i> <i>OR NO CLOTHES.</i> <i>TAKING FINAL EXAMS WITHOUT</i> <i>HAVING STUDIED.</i> <i>THROUGHOUT HISTORY, DREAMS</i> <i>HAVE FASCINATED AND MYSTIFIED.</i> <i>MESSAGES FROM THE GODS?</i> <i>EXPRESSIONS OF THE</i> <i>SUBCONSCIOUS.</i> <i>MUCH ABOUT DREAMS ARE MYTH,</i> <i>BUT WHAT IS NOT MYTH IS THAT</i> <i>DREAMS ARE FELT INNER</i> <i>AWARENESS.</i> <i>IT IS LIKE SOMETHING TO HAVE</i> <i>A DREAM.</i> <i>DREAMS ARE DOORS TO THE MIND.</i> <i>CAN DREAMS OPEN NEW VISTAS</i> <i>OF CONSCIOUSNESS?</i> <i>WHAT ARE DREAMS ABOUT?</i> <i>I'M ROBERT LAWRENCE KUHN,</i> <i>AND CLOSER TO TRUTH IS MY</i> <i>JOURNEY TO FIND OUT.</i> <i>DREAMS CAN SEEM AS IF PURE</i> <i>CONSCIOUSNESS, DENSE MENTAL</i> <i>PACKETS OF INTENSE SUBJECTIVE</i> <i>FEELING, AN INNER WORLD OF</i> <i>COMPLETE CREDULITY WHERE EVEN</i> <i>THE OUTRAGEOUS IS NORMAL.</i> <i>OF THE INTERPRETATIONS</i> <i>OF DREAMS THERE ARE NO LIMITS.</i> <i>BUT CAN DREAMS BE STUDIED</i> <i>SCIENTIFICALLY?</i> <i>WELL, WE DREAM WHEN WE ARE</i> <i>ASLEEP, SO I BEGIN IN BOSTON</i> <i>AT HARVARD WITH THE LEADING</i> <i>EXPERT ON THE SCIENCE OF</i> <i>SLEEP, THE DIRECTOR OF THE</i> <i>CENTER FOR SLEEP AND</i> <i>COGNITION, ROBERT STICKGOLD.</i> BOB, TO UNDERSTAND CONSCIOUSNESS WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND DREAMING. I CAN TELL YOU THAT ALL THE BIZARRE DREAMS THAT I HAVE JUST SEEM LIKE NONSENSE. THERE'S A NEW SCIENCE TODAY. HOW DOES THAT HELP US UNDERSTAND THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS CALLED DREAMING? >>DREAMING HAS TO BE ABOUT THE WEIRDEST THING OUT THERE. WHEN WE TRY TO STUDY IT SCIENTIFICALLY, WE KNOW THAT IF THEY'RE IN RAPID EYE MOVEMENT SLEEP, WHAT WE CALL REM SLEEP, THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE DREAMING THAN IF THEY'RE IN NON REM SLEEP, BUT WE STILL CAN'T LOOK AT ANY MEASURES THAT WE KNOW HOW TO TAKE AND SAY, NOW SHE'S DREAMING, NOW SHE'S STOPPED DREAMING. SO, ALL WE HAVE IS THE VERBAL REPORTS THAT PEOPLE GIVE US AND THAT'S KIND OF SCARY BECAUSE, AS ALL OF US KNOW, THOSE DREAMS ARE KIND OF EPHEMERAL. THEY'RE HARD TO REMEMBER. SO THAT'S THE FIRST PROBLEM. AND THEN THE SECOND PROBLEM IS, WHAT SHOULD WE DO WITH THEM? AND ALLAN HOBSON, BACK IN THE '70'S CAME UP WITH THIS IDEA THAT WE SHOULDN'T LOOK AT THE ACTUAL CONTENT FIRST, WHAT THE DREAM IS ABOUT, BUT JUST LOOK AT THE STRUCTURE OF IT. SO WHAT WE FIND IS THAT DREAMS TEND TO HAVE CERTAIN CHARACTERISTICS. THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM THOUGHTS AND IMAGES WE HAVE DURING WAKING. MAYBE THE MOST OBVIOUS ONE IS THAT WE'RE DELUSIONAL ABOUT THEM. WHEN WE DREAM, NO MATTER HOW IMPROBABLE OR IMPOSSIBLE THE DREAM IS, WE'RE CASUALLY GOING ALONG ABSOLUTELY BELIEVING IT'S TRUE, BUT DREAMS TEND TO BE STORIES. THEY TEND TO HAVE CHARACTERS IN THEM BESIDES OURSELVES, THEY TEND TO BE EMOTIONAL, AND THEY TEND TO BE BIZARRE. AND WHAT WE TEND TO BE MOST AWARE OF IS THE BIZARRENESS AND, OF COURSE, THE INTENSE VISUAL VIVIDNESS. AND WHAT WE FIND IN THE CONTENT IS STILL SORT OF CONFUSING. WE FIND THAT THERE'S LOTS OF REFERENCES TO THINGS FROM THE LAST DAY, BUT WE DON'T REPLAY WHAT HAPPENS IN THE DAY. WE LOOKED AT A SERIES OF 400 DREAM REPORTS WHERE PEOPLE ISOLATED FIVE OR SIX HUNDRED EVENTS IN THEIR DREAMS WHERE THEY SAY I KNOW WHAT THAT'S FROM IN MY WAKING LIFE. BUT IN ONLY ONE OR TWO OF THOSE DID IT LOOK LIKE THE BRAIN WAS ACTUALLY REPLAYING WHAT HAPPENED IN WAKING, SO WE DON'T REPLAY THE EVENT. SO WHEN I SAY, OH, I DREAMT ABOUT THIS CAR ACCIDENT THAT I WAS ALMOST IN, I DON'T PLAY IT OUT IN MY DREAM THE WAY I DO WHEN I REMEMBER IT IN WAKING. IN MY DREAM I'M AT AN AMUSEMENT PARK WITH MY SON AND WE'RE ON BUMPER CARS AND HE IS LAUGHING AND HAVING A GREAT TIME AND I'M SAYING THIS IS KIND OF SCARY, I DON'T LIKE IT. AND IN ORDER TO REMEMBER IN MY DREAM THAT I WAS ALMOST IN A CAR ACCIDENT IT'S ALMOST OUT THERE BY ITSELF AND I WAKE UP AND I SAY, I DREAMT ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I WAS ALMOST IN THAT CAR ACCIDENT, BUT THERE'S ALMOST NOTHING LEFT OF IT. AND SO THEY BOTH SEEM TO BE MEANINGFUL AND THEY SEEM TO BE MEANINGLESS. >IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S SOME EXECUTIVE FUNCTION THAT'S MISSING. IT'S JUST SORT OF A DISINHIBITION THAT EVERYTHING IS SORT OF HAPPENING AND WE DON'T HAVE THAT CRITICAL FACULTY ABOUT US. >>SO, WE KNOW FROM BRAIN IMAGING STUDIES THAT WHEN WE GO INTO REM SLEEP, TWO THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON IS FIRST OF ALL, THE PREFRONTAL CORTEX WHICH IS WHERE WE HAVE OUR EXECUTIVE CONTROL, WHERE OUR RATIONAL, LOGICAL THINKING AND OUR PLANNING COMES FROM, IT'S TURNED OFF. SO WE DON'T HAVE THAT FACULTY. YOU'RE RIGHT. WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO THINK RATIONALLY AND PLAN WHEN WE'RE IN REM SLEEP. AND IT TURNS OUT ALSO THAT INFORMATION THAT COMES FROM A STRUCTURE DEEP IN YOUR BRAIN CALLED THE HIPPOCAMPUS, WHICH IS INVOLVED IN REMEMBER EVENTS FROM OUR LIFE, THAT FLOW OF INFORMATION SEEMS TO BE SHUT OFF, TOO. SO THAT ALL WE SORT OF HAVE ARE THESE VAGUE PIECES OF MEMORIES AND THE ASSOCIATIONS THAT WE'VE MADE BETWEEN THEM TO CONSTRUCT THE DREAM OUT OF, AND BOY, THEY CAN LOOK STRANGE. AND SOMETIMES THEY JUST LOOK DUMB, AND SOMETIMES THEY LOOK PROFOUND, AND IT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH WHEN WE WAKE UP - THE ASSOCIATIONS WE FORM ON WAKING-HOW MUCH THEY TOUCH DEEP ISSUES IN OUR LIFE VERSUS BEING ANNOYED BY A STOP LIGHT THAT WE GOT STUCK AT. AND SO, SOMETIMES THE DREAMS FEEL SILLY AND SOMETIMES THEY FEEL IMPORTANT, BUT THEY NEVER SHOW US ANYTHING CLEARLY IN THE WAY THAT YOU MIGHT ASK BECAUSE THAT'S NOT, I THINK, WHAT THE BRAIN'S TRYING TO DO AT THAT TIME. I THINK IN THAT PERIOD OF SLEEP WHEN WE'RE DREAMING, THE BRAIN IS TRYING TO SEE HOW THINGS FIT TOGETHER AND HOW SCENARIOS MAY PLAY OUT IN THE FUTURE. AND SO, IT PUTS THE MOST BIZARRE THINGS TOGETHER AND JUST LETS YOU WATCH AS THE BRAIN PLAYS THEM OUT. <i>>DO DREAMS DO ANYTHING?</i> <i>ROBERT SAYS THAT THE BRAIN</i> <i>USES DREAMS TO PLAY OUT</i> <i>SCENARIOS, TESTING HOW THINGS</i> <i>MIGHT FIT.</i> <i>THAT THE BRAIN'S EXECUTIVE</i> <i>CONTROL AREAS GET SWITCHED OFF</i> <i>SO THE CONTENTS OF DREAMS</i> <i>ARE BIZARRE.</i> <i>INNER SENSATIONS AND FEELINGS</i> <i>ARE RICHLY PRESENT.</i> <i>THIS IS CONSCIOUSNESS,</i> <i>BUT IS THERE PURPOSE?</i> <i>I HAVE, IN MY DREAMS, ELEMENTS</i> <i>FROM MY WAKING LIFE-PEOPLE,</i> <i>PLACES, ACTIONS-BUT NEVER THE</i> <i>WAY THEY ACTUALLY HAPPENED,</i> <i>ALWAYS ODDLY STRUNG TOGETHER,</i> <i>MUSHED AND MANGLED TOGETHER.</i> <i>CAN EVOLUTIONARY PERSPECTIVE</i> <i>HELP?</i> <i>AFTER ALL, IF BRAINS EVOLVED,</i> <i>DREAMS EVOLVED.</i> <i>I CONTINUE AT HARVARD'S</i> <i>BEHAVIORAL MEDICINE PROGRAM</i> <i>WITH THE EDITOR IN CHIEF</i> <i>OF THE JOURNAL DREAMING,</i> <i>EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGIST</i> <i>DEIDRE BARRETT.</i> DEIDRE, WHAT DOES THE THEORY OF DREAMS HAVE TO EXPLAIN? >>FIRST OF ALL, WE NEED TO EXPLAIN JUST WHY IS THERE ANY CONTENT TO OUR NIGHTTIME SLEEP, AND SECONDLY, WHY IS IT SO BIZARRE, SO VISUAL, SO NONVERBAL COMPARED TO OUR WAKING EXPERIENCE, AND THIRDLY, EITHER WHAT IS IT FOR, WHAT IS ITS FUNCTION, OR IF IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE, SORT OF WHY DOES IT EXIST GIVEN THAT EVOLUTIONARY THEORY SUGGESTS MOST THINGS SHOULD HAVE SOME FUNCTION. >SO WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THEORIES OUT THERE? CERTAINLY EVERYBODY KNOWS FREUD, THAT THERE'S THESE UNCONSCIOUS DRIVES OR REPRESSIONS OR SEXUALITY OR DIFFERENT THINGS THAT ARE THE PRESSURE OF DREAMS. >>YEAH, AND MOST OF THE PSYCHOANALYTIC ONES ALL HAVE TO DO WITH SORT OF UNCONSCIOUS MECHANISMS THAT ARE THERE TO TAKE CARE OF UNCONSCIOUS CONFLICTS WHICH DON'T REALLY SORT OF MAKE A LOT OF PRACTICAL SENSE AS AN ADAPTIVE MECHANISM, AND SOME OF THEM HAVE SOME VERY NEGATIVE SELF DEFEATING KINDS OF THEORIES BEHIND THEM. BUT MORE OF THEM-BIOLOGY, MODERN THINKING-THERE ARE SOME THEORIES THAT SAY THAT RAPID EYE MOVEMENT SLEEP, REM SLEEP, WHICH IS WHEN MOST DREAMS OCCUR, THAT IT HAS SOME CAUSE AND POSIT DREAMS AS JUST COMPLETELY AN EPIPHENOMENA OR SPANDREL IS A TERM FOR SOMETHING THAT'S JUST RIDING ON SOMETHING ELSE THAT HAS A FUNCTION, THAT REM HAS A FUNCTION AND DREAMS DON'T. >SO REM IS A FUNCTION OF CLEANING UP THE BRAIN OR GETTING THE BRAIN BETTER METABOLICALLY, OR BETTER ORGANIZATIONALLY IN TERMS OF ITS ELECTRICAL ACTIVITY AND BECAUSE YOU'RE ENGAGING DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BRAIN THAT TRIGGERS THE DREAMS WHICH ARE THE FROTH RIDING ON THE WAVE AND HAS NO CAUSE AND EFFECT, NO RELATIONSHIP TO ANYTHING ELSE. WE THINK IT DOES. WE IMAGINE ALL THESE THINGS, THE FREUDIAN STUFF, BUT IT'S REALLY KIND OF TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. >>YEAH. AND THEN, MOST PSYCHOLOGISTS AND PSYCHIATRISTS WHO THINK MUCH ABOUT DREAMS PROBABLY STILL BELIEVE SOME VERSION OF THE MORE PSYCHOANALYTIC IDEAS THAT DREAMS ARE HANDLING TABOO IMPULSES OR THEY'RE TRYING TO EXPRESS THINGS IN SOME INTENTIONALLY DISGUISED MANNER. AND EVEN TODAY I THINK WE'VE GOT PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY THAT THEY THINK DREAMS HAVE SOME DIVINE ORIGIN, THAT THAT'S MORE OF A HISTORIC VIEW, BUT THAT'S STILL - SO, THERE'S A HUGE RANGE. >SO YOU GO FROM THE PURE BIOLOGY WHERE DREAMS ARE A FROTH, TO DREAMS BEING THE CORE OF OUR SUBCONSCIOUS WHICH DRIVES EVERYTHING WE DO TO - YOUR PERSONAL APPROACH FOCUSES ON DREAMS AS A SOURCE OF PROBLEM SOLVING AND CREATIVITY. >>YEAH. I THINK THEY'RE MEANINGFUL. I THINK THAT PROBABLY MANY OF THEIR CHARACTERISTICS ARE THERE BECAUSE OF THE NECESSITIES OF REM SLEEP AND THAT A LOT OF IT IS BIOLOGICALLY DETERMINED; WHY WE'RE IN THIS EXACT BIOCHEMICAL STATE MAY HAVE MORE TO DO WITH REPLENISHING TRANSMITTERS, BUT THEN, ONCE WE ARE, IT LOOKS LIKE WE STAY CONCERNED WITH THE SAME ISSUES AND ARE TRYING TO PROBLEM SOLVE AND THINK ABOUT THINGS IN DREAMS AND CERTAINLY, I'M NOT SAYING THAT MOST OF THE TIME WE MAKE GREAT SOLUTIONS MOST OF OUR WAKING THINKING DOESN'T COME UP WITH GREAT SOLUTIONS IN ANY FEW MINUTES EITHER, BUT SOMETIMES DREAMS MAKE BREAKTHROUGHS. AND THERE ARE A LOT OF ANECDOTES ABOUT FAMOUS EXAMPLES OF MAJOR CREATIVITY OR MAJOR SCIENTIFIC PROBLEM SOLVING. BUT I'VE ALSO DONE RESEARCH ON JUST MUCH MORE MUNDANELY COLLEGE STUDENTS TRYING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS IN THEIR DREAMS AND I FOUND THAT ABOUT HALF OF THE STUDENTS IN THE COURSE OF A WEEK OF DOING THAT DREAMED ABOUT THEIR PROBLEM AS IN THE TOPIC OF THE PROBLEM CLEARLY SHOWED UP IN THE DREAM AS RATED BY OBJECTIVE RATERS AS WELL AS THE STUDENTS. AND THEN ABOUT HALF OF THOSE HAD A SOLUTION, SO ONE FOURTH. <i>>DEIDRE RAISED THREE ISSUES.</i> <i>WHY DREAMS AT ALL?</i> <i>WHY ARE DREAMS BIZARRE?</i> <i>WHAT ARE DREAMS FOR,</i> <i>USING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY.</i> <i>SHE DISMISSES FREUD</i> <i>AND PSYCHOANALYSIS AS</i> <i>IF A PRIMITIVE SHAMAN</i> <i>AND HIS SUPERSTITIOUS MYTHS.</i> <i>SO DOES THE SCIENCE OF</i> <i>DREAMING SUGGEST THAT OUR</i> <i>NOCTURNAL MENTAL ADVENTURES</i> <i>ARE ACCIDENTAL RESULTS OF</i> <i>BRAIN BIOLOGY HOUSEKEEPING,</i> <i>NOT THE MANIFESTATIONS OF</i> <i>HIDDEN PSYCHOLOGICAL PURPOSE?</i> <i>FIGHTING WORDS.</i> <i>I ENTER THE PSYCHO WARS.</i> <i>I HEAD TO LONDON TO MEET A</i> <i>QUANTUM PHYSICIST WHO LAUDS</i> <i>THE THEORIES OF PSYCHOANALYST</i> <i>CARL JUNG.</i> <i>IMPERIAL COLLEGE PROFESSOR,</i> <i>CHRISTOPHER ISHAM.</i> CHRIS, YOU'RE A PHYSICIST, YOU'VE STUDIED CARL JUNG, HOW CAN YOU HELP ME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT DREAMING IS ALL ABOUT? >>WELL, ON MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND I THINK EVERY PSYCHOANALYST WHO KNEW FREUD REALLY WOULD AGREE WITH THIS, IS THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF DREAM, RATHER RANDOM DREAMS WHERE YOU JUST - I MAY DREAM OF YOU TONIGHT, BUT THERE OTHER DREAMS THAT JUNG CALLED BIG DREAMS THAT ARE QUITE DIFFERENT AND I'VE HAD QUITE A LOT OF BIG DREAMS IN MY TIME. I KEPT A DIARY, A DREAM DIARY OF MY BIG DREAMS, AND THEY'RE EXTRAORDINARY THINGS AND THEY'RE EXTREMELY COHERENT BUT NOT JUST THE RANDOM, NOT AT ALL, THEY TELL A DEFINITE STORY, QUITE COMPLICATED SOMETIMES, VERY CLEAR, IT ALL FITS TOGETHER AND SO FORTH. VERY OFTEN, IN MY CASE, IS THE OLD BATTLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL AND THINGS LIKE THAT, AND ALSO CLEARLY ASSOCIATED IN SOME WAY WITH MY MYSTICAL VIEWS ABOUT NATURE AND THINGS LIKE THAT. NOW THOSE BIG DREAMS ARE WHAT PSYCHOANALYSTS WOULD TEND TO LOOK AT, NOT THE GENERAL NOISE. NOW MANY PEOPLE SAY THEY DON'T GET THESE BIG DREAMS, BUT THOSE ARE QUITE EASY TO GENERATE FOR ME, AND EVERY ANALYST KNOWS THIS. IF YOU START WITH A PAD OF PAPER BY YOUR BED AT NIGHT, WHEN YOU WAKE UP IN THE MORNING, WAKE UP MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, PICK IT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, WRITE THERE WHAT'S IN YOUR MIND, JUST WRITE IT DOWN, WHATEVER IT IS, AND WHAT HAPPENS OVER A PERIOD OF TIME JUST DOING THAT IS TO GENERATE DEEPER DREAMING. THAT'S JUST A THING THAT'S BEEN NOTICED. SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO EXPERIENCE BIG DREAMS AND PERSONALLY, IN SOME OF MY DREAMS THE EMOTIONS I EXPERIENCE ARE FAR MORE POWERFUL THAN ANYTHING I'VE EVER EXPERIENCED IN MY CONSCIOUS MIND. SO, OF COURSE, THEY HAVE AN IMPACT ON ME. I MEAN, THEY AFFECTED ME FOR DAYS SOMETIMES AFTERWARDS, SO I TAKE THOSE EXPERIENCES EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY. >BUT THE CLAIM IS NOT MADE THAT THERE'S SOME RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THOSE BIG DREAMS AND AN EXTERNAL REALITY, IT'S MORE YOUR EMOTIONAL, INTERNAL NATURE, RIGHT? >>WELL, BETWEEN DREAMS AND THINKING. YOU'RE THINKING, CHRIS IS SITTING OPPOSITE ME. NOW HOW DOES THAT RELATE TO A CERTAIN REALIZING, RIGHT? THE THOUGHT'S INSIDE YOU. IT DOES CAUSE WHERE THERE'S SOMETHING CAUSE I'M HERE. NOW IF I HAVE A DREAM, AGAIN, IT'S SOMETHING INSIDE ME IT DOESN'T, THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THEREFORE IT DOESN'T REFER IN SOME WAY TO THE EXTERNAL WORLD, BUT IT REFERS TO THE EXTERNAL WORLD AS YOU EXPERIENCE IT, RIGHT, DREAMS ABOUT YOU ARE NOT ACTUALLY ABOUT QUANTUM PHYSICS BY AND LARGE. SO I THINK ONE HAS TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING IN DREAMS, I MEAN, BUT NOT MYSTICAL EXPERIENCES NECESSARILY OR SOMETHING WE CAN'T UNDERSTAND, BUT WE CAN HAVE A VERY PROFOUND IMPACT ON PEOPLE. >AND CERTAIN PURPOSE OF SLEEP PEOPLE ARE DISCOVERING, BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY DEEP MEANING TO DREAMS, IT'S JUST ELECTRICAL FIRINGS. >>WELL, THAT'S TRUE OF ORDINARY CALLED NOISY DREAMS, BUT THESE BIG DREAMS ARE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THAT. THERE'S A LOT OF STORY BEING TOLD, SO SOMETHING'S GOING ON SOMEWHERE WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, QUITE COHERENT. BUT LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING VERY PERSONAL, IF I MAY. WHEN I WAS A STUDENT I WAS HAVING LOTS OF PROBLEMS AND I BECAME VERY DEPRESSED AND WAS REALLY QUITE ILL. AND IT TURNED OUT THAT I HAD A FOCAL LESION IN MY RIGHT TEMPORAL LOBE, SO IN A TECHNICAL SENSE, I HAD TEMPORAL EPILEPSY. I NEVER HAD FITS. NOW, THE NEUROLOGIST WHO INVOLVED ME WOULD HAVE SAID, AH-HA, THIS IS WHY CHRIS GETS THESE MYSTICAL FEELINGS IS BECAUSE THE RIGHT TEMPORAL LOBE IS FAILING. THIS IS TRUE, BUT DOES THAT MEAN THAT THEREFORE THERE'S NO CONNECT WITH REALITY? WELL, NOT NECESSARILY. OFTEN WHEN I SEE YOU THE OPTICAL NERVE IS FIRING. DOES THAT MEAN THERE'S NO EXTERNAL REALITY? NO, IT DOESN'T. OF COURSE NOT. SO IT'S JUST WHAT WE'RE USED TO THINKING ABOUT, THESE SORT OF MYSTICAL THINGS IN THAT WAY. >AND SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT IF YOU - THE BRAIN IS, YOU CAN INTERPRET IT TWO DIFFERENT WAYS, WHETHER THERE IS A REALITY TO IT OR WHETHER THE BRAIN IS JUST CAUSING THE NONSENSE. >>SOME VERY DISTINGUISHED, CREATIVE PEOPLE SUFFER FROM TEMPORAL LOBE EPILEPSY. DOSTOEVSKY, FOR EXAMPLE, VERY FAMOUSLY DID. MANY PEOPLE THINK OTHERS DID AS WELL. SO, NOW YOU HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES, IF THESE PEOPLE PRODUCED WHAT IS GENERALLY REGARDED AS VERY FINE CREATIONISTS, IT'S JUST RANDOM FIRING IN THE BRAIN THAT LED TO THAT? WELL, YOU COULD SAY SO, I SUPPOSE, BUT IT'S SOMETHING WE DON'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT, I BELIEVE ACTUALLY, BECAUSE WE DO ACCEPT THAT PEOPLE WITH TEMPORAL LOBE EPILEPSY, IF YOU LIKE, GET MYSTICAL FEELINGS, BUT THEY ALSO PRODUCE CREATIVE WORKS, WHICH WE ACCEPT AS BEING VERY FINE CREATIVE WORKS, SO IT'S SOMETHING IS GOING ON THAT IS ACTUALLY USEFUL, I WOULD SAY. <i>>BIG DREAMS, CHRIS SAYS,</i> <i>AFFECT YOU.</i> <i>AND EVEN IF MYSTICAL</i> <i>EXPERIENCES IN DREAMS</i> <i>OR IN WAKING LIFE ARE CAUSED</i> <i>BY ELECTRICAL STORMS IN</i> <i>THE BRAIN, SO WHAT?</i> <i>CHRIS IS DEFIANT.</i> <i>THE EXPERIENCES THEMSELVES</i> <i>ARE REAL.</i> <i>REAL?</i> <i>WHAT'S REAL?</i> <i>REALLY FELT?</i> <i>SURE.</i> <i>REALLY CONNECTED TO SOME</i> <i>EXTERNAL GRAND REALITY?</i> <i>WELL, THAT'S A QUANTUM LEAP.</i> <i>I'M TORN.</i> <i>MY SCIENCE SELF SAYS DREAMS</i> <i>ARE BRAIN BIOLOGY</i> <i>HOUSEKEEPING.</i> <i>MY MYSTICAL SELF SAYS,</i> <i>I HOPE THERE'S MORE.</i> <i>SO FAR, MY SCIENCE SELF</i> <i>IS WINNING.</i> <i>BUT AM I BEING TOO RIGID?</i> <i>WHAT ABOUT LINKS BETWEEN</i> <i>DREAMS AND CONSCIOUSNESS?</i> <i>DREAMS ARE ABOUT THINGS.</i> <i>WHAT THINGS ARE MOST</i> <i>EMOTIONAL?</i> <i>NIGHTMARES.</i> <i>MOST BIZARRE?</i> <i>PRECOGNITION,</i> <i>SEEING THE FUTURE.</i> <i>I GO TO BOSTON TO SPEAK WITH</i> <i>AN EXPERT ON THE EVOLUTION</i> <i>AND NEUROBIOLOGY OF SLEEP,</i> <i>PATRICK MCNAMARA.</i> PATRICK, TO UNDERSTAND CONSCIOUSNESS WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND DREAMING. DREAMS, DO YOU THINK ABOUT, HAVE A LOT OF VERY STRANGE KINDS OF MANIFESTATIONS FROM NIGHTMARES TO PEOPLE THINK THEY CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE IN THEIR DREAMS, HISTORICAL THINGS - AS A SCIENTIST LOOKING AT DREAMS, HOW DO YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THESE MORE OUTLYING ACTIVITIES? >>WELL, YOU MENTIONED NIGHTMARES AND I FIND THEM TO BE PARTICULARLY FASCINATING FOR A THEORY OF DREAMS. ONE OF THE CHARACTERISTICS YOU SEE OF REM DREAMS, IN PARTICULAR, AND ESPECIALLY NIGHTMARES, IS THE PRESENCE OF MALE STRANGERS. THERE'S GOING TO BE ONE OR TWO OR THREE MAYBE MALE STRANGERS LURKING IN THE BACKGROUND SOMEWHERE THERE. AND IF YOU SCORE THOUSANDS OF DREAM REPORTS AND YOU TABULATE, WHENEVER YOU GET THE PRESENCE OF A MALE STRANGER THERE'S GOING TO BE PHYSICAL VIOLENCE IN THE DREAM. THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME SORT OF AGGRESSION BETWEEN TWO OF THE CHARACTERS. OR AN ANIMAL MIGHT APPEAR AND CREATE PHYSICAL VIOLENCE. SO THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, NO? THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF REALLY UNRAVELING THE CONTENT OF DREAMS. DREAMS ARE ABOUT SOMETHING, AND THERE'S LOTS OF THEORIES ABOUT WHAT DREAMS ARE ABOUT-FREUD HAS HIS- BUT THIS VERY SIMPLE FACT, OKAY, MALE STRANGERS YOU'RE GOING TO GET PHYSICAL AGGRESSION. THAT'S A VERY RELIABLE FINDING AND THAT TELLS ME THAT DREAMS ARE NOT JUST BIZARRE, RANDOM THINGS THAT ARE JUST, YOU KNOW, FLUFF OF THE MIND AT NIGHT. NO. THERE'S SOMETHING SERIOUS GOING ON HERE. >WHAT ELSE CAN WE SEE ABOUT NIGHTMARES? >>NIGHTMARES TEND TO OCCUR IN REM SLEEP AND THEY TEND TO OCCUR IN PEOPLE WITH CERTAIN PERSONALITY PROFILES. >LIKE WHAT? >>WELL, THEY TEND TO BE WOMEN WITH THIN BOUNDARIES. THEY DON'T SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND THEM TOO WELL. FOR SOMEBODY TO CALL A DREAM A NIGHTMARE, THERE TYPICALLY HAS TO BE SOME SORT OF, WHAT I CALL, A DEMONIC ELEMENT IN THE NIGHTMARE-A MONSTER. NOT JUST A MALE STRANGER, NOT JUST A THREATENING FIGURE, BUT SOMETHING MONSTROUS, SOMETHING THAT REALLY STARTS TO INCITE TERROR, AND THAT'S WHEN THE NIGHTMARE REALLY STARTS TO HAVE EFFECTS ON DAILY ACTIVITY AS WELL. AND IF YOU FOLLOW SOMEBODY WHO HAS REPETITIVE NIGHTMARES AND YOU FOLLOW THEM OVER A COUPLE OF YEARS, YOU WATCH WHAT HAPPENS WITH THIS DEMONIC ELEMENT. THE FIRST REPORTS ARE, HE IS OFF IN THE BACKGROUND SOMEWHERE AND HE'S THREATENING THE DREAMER SOMEHOW. BUT AS THE DREAM REPORTS COME, THE DEMON, OR THE MONSTER, GETS CLOSER TO THE DREAM SELF, TO THE DREAM EGO, TO THE DREAMING PERSON. NOW HE'S IN THE SAME ROOM AS THE PERSON. AND THEN THE NIGHTMARES GET WORSE AND WORSE AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHEN THEY START TO GO SEE A DOCTOR AND THEN THE DEMON OF THE MONSTER IS NOW RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM AND IT'S THREATENING TO DO SOMETHING TO THEM. AND THEN FINALLY, THE DEMON OR THE MONSTER IS CHASING THEM AND THEY'RE GOING TO POSSESS THEIR CONSCIOUSNESS. >SO WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT IN TERMS OF THE NATURE OF CONSCIOUSNESS? >>I WOULD SAY WHAT IT IMITATES IS IN NIGHTMARES AND DREAMS IN GENERAL ARE ABOUT THE SELF. A MONSTER IS INTERESTED IN THE SELF, IN YOU. THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN OTHER THINGS GOING ON. HE'S AFTER YOU. HE WANTS TO DEVOUR YOUR IDENTITY UNTIL YOU'RE DISSOLVED AWAY. YOU KNOW, IT'S PROBABLY WHAT A SCHIZOPHRENIC FEELS WHEN THEY'RE HAVING AN EPISODE, PSYCHOSIS, LIKE THEY'RE LITERALLY JUST FRAGMENTING AWAY, AND THAT'S WHAT NIGHTMARE SUFFERERS REPORT AS WELL. SO WHAT THAT SUGGESTS IN TURN IS THAT DREAMS AND NIGHTMARES ARE ABOUT THE SELF. IT'S ABOUT CONSTRUCTING A SELF. IF WHAT'S GOING ON IN REPETITIVE NIGHTMARES IS A DISILLUSION OF THE SELF AND WHAT WE'RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT IS A BREAKDOWN OF THE DREAMING MECHANISM, THAT'S WHAT NIGHTMARES ARE. THEN WHAT THE DREAMING MECHANISM PROBABLY DOES ON A NORMAL BASIS IS BUILD UP THIS SELF STRUCTURE. AND YOU NEED THAT SELF STRUCTURE DURING THE DAYTIME FOR CONSCIOUSNESS. SO I WOULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT DREAMS ARE ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL TO DAYTIME CONSCIOUSNESS. >WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO, THROUGHOUT HISTORY, WHO'VE REPORTED SOME PSYCHIC ASPECTS OF DREAMS. >>I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. I DON'T THINK THERE HAVE BEEN GOOD STUDIES ON IT TO - YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD JUST DISMISS THEM AS, YOU KNOW, COINCIDENCES. WHEN YOU READ REPORT AFTER REPORT AFTER REPORT DOWN THROUGH THE CENTURIES, EVERY CULTURE REPORTS THESE QUOTE UNQUOTE PRECOGNITIVE DREAMS. THERE'S SOMETHING TO IT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT. I'M NOT SAYING THAT THESE DREAMS DO PREDICT THE FUTURE, I'M NOT SAYING THAT, BUT I'M SAYING THERE'S SOMETHING INTERESTING GOING ON AND IT'S NOT BEEN RIGOROUSLY INVESTIGATED YET. >SO, LOOKING AT THE TOTALITY OF DREAMS, ESPECIALLY THESE BIZARRE OFFSHOOTS- THE NIGHTMARES, THE PRECOGNITIVE DREAMS- WE REALLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUT DEALING WITH THIS. >>I COMPLETELY AGREE. YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE SELF WITHOUT DREAMS AND YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THE SELF. SO TO REALLY GET AT, YOU KNOW, THE NATURE AND FUNCTIONS OF THE SELF, IT'S WORTHWHILE LOOKING AT DREAMS BECAUSE DREAMS ARE VERY INTIMATELY INVOLVED IN CONSTRUCTING WHAT FREUD CALLED THE EGO IDENTITY. <i>>DOES THE DANCE OF DREAMS</i> <i>AFFECT THE CADENCE</i> <i>OF CONSCIOUSNESS?</i> <i>WHAT IS IT ABOUT CONSCIOUSNESS</i> <i>THAT ENABLES DREAMS TO BE</i> <i>SENSED AND FELT, EVEN THOUGH</i> <i>WE ARE, WELL, UNCONSCIOUS?</i> <i>ARE DREAMS ONLY AN ARTIFACT OF</i> <i>BRAIN MAINTENANCE, NO MORE</i> <i>MEANINGFUL THAN THE HOLE</i> <i>IN THE MIDDLE OF A DONUT?</i> <i>NOT LIKELY.</i> <i>DREAMS ARE SOMETHING MORE.</i> <i>ARE THEN DREAMS A WINDOW TO</i> <i>HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALITIES?</i> <i>ALSO NOT LIKELY.</i> <i>DREAMS ARE SOMETHING LESS.</i> <i>ONLY TWICE IN MY LIFE DID</i> <i>I HAVE DREAMS THAT I THOUGHT</i> <i>MIGHT HAVE REAL WORLD IMPACT.</i> <i>IN BOTH CASES I WAS WRONG.</i> <i>MY DREAMS HAD NO IMPACT.</i> <i>YET, IF DREAMS HELP ESTABLISH</i> <i>OR PROTECT THE SELF, AND IF</i> <i>THE SELF HELPS ENGENDER</i> <i>OR EMPOWER CONSCIOUSNESS,</i> <i>THEN PERHAPS DREAMS DO</i> <i>AFFECT CONSCIOUSNESS.</i> <i>TO SOLVE THE MYSTERY OF</i> <i>CONSCIOUSNESS, COULD DREAMS</i> <i>BE A CLUE TAKING US CLOSER</i> <i>TO TRUTH?</i>
