Diesel Transmission Torque Converters | Power Driven Diesel

today on transmission tech with power driven diesel I'm Destin I'm will I'm Destin I'm will I'm Destin I'm Destin how's the kind of scary okay so this video is pretty specific to 1994 through 2007 dodge diesel automatic transmissions we get a lot of guys say hey I've got this converter from 47 re can I put it in my 48 re well in the first video you learned 2003 and up is generally 48 re 2002 and older 47 re or 47 or H tell us the main difference in the pump these are pump Staters Dustin what's this one on the right here 48 re we've got the not for a seal and that reacts inside the torque converter and this is a 47 no groove this is an updated stator support for 48 specific so inside the torque converter a 47 does not have the ability to catch a seal a 48 does what this does is it raises the efficiency the converter just a tiny bit we noticed the the pressure that gets trapped in the converter is a little higher it makes him run tiny bit so just a small update the factory did slide efficiency upgrade a few psi just a little bit of loss there and it's usually on say an older worn transmission with a bushing so most performance automatic transmission builders they simply remove this seal on a from a 48 and then you put whatever converter you want in there it doesn't hurt to leave the seal but if you have a 47 converter on a 48 stator and the seals there there's a chance that seal could pop loose it's just tore long plastic could eventually block something in the valve adding caused an issue that's the only downside really other than the tiny efficiency lost obviously all the older ones they operate just fine it's just a little update so the 47 is compatible it doesn't care what converter is on it just like the 48 really doesn't care other than if there's nothing to hold the seal you probably shouldn't leave the seal there inside the converter right here you can see you get down here what did we decide that was about an inch and then one point three inches one point three inches down the inside diameter gets bigger on a 47 converter on the snout or the nose of the converter as you can see right here right there it gets bigger on this this is a new DPC converter and when you pull the top off there so we can look in there on this one you can see that it's a smooth land all the way down until you get into this dater and where your bearings and everything are two or three two to two and a half inches or so in there yeah but that one point three inches down there it's just a continual slope straight nice straight edge so that's how you can tell at home what converter you have reach your finger in there if you get down about 1.3 inches and it gets a little bigger you can feel a lip it's forty seven converter smooth it's forty eight yep pretty simple something else want to tell you about converters you look right here there's little angled grooves right here see how these are more flat and these ones are a steeper angle right here these flatter ones this is actually a v10 torque converter so this is out of a v10 gasoline application this converter right of the factory is about 2400 rpm stall this diesel one is about 2,000 rpm stall now stalls kind of like an arbitrary thing there's like a flash stall that the torque converter first goes to first time you whack the gas or we step on the brakes and then there's a true stall which is has to do with a K factor and has to do with how much torque the engine can make at a certain rpm and that's how hard it will push up so basically you stand on the brakes you floor it and the RPM slowly climbs that that's kind of how you measure the true stall kind of hard on it when you do racing that's how you build boost so that you can launch hard at the starting line but just really quickly just something to notice if it has this is a v10 pump this is a decent one so if your converter has a little bit more vertical groove here it's probably higher stall so if you have some random aftermarket torque converter you have no idea what it is that's a key indicator there that'll tell you it's probably higher than stock stall now there's two other components in there that affect the stall speed so that's not the only factor but that alone is worth a couple hundred rpm of the stall speed increase between a v10 a v10 and a diesel torque converter okay then as far as core usage goes if you're concerned about that aspect of it the racer guys like us here we use a v10 stall or higher quite often so if you're wondering if your gas or torque converter can be used as a good core say for your diesel torque motor you're gonna be buying we'll take them but it needs to be a v10 gas which will look just like this you get into a 518 or an unlock up the converters different not nearly the core value so you really want so really the only gas would be a v10 magnum you know gas application big block big block yeah so a little bit about torque converters these are both stock converters let's flip this up here and you can see stock converter has the six welded lugs on here it's a stamped steel cover there's a clutch shut in here that applies against this back cover and a stock one is a little bit prone to warping you get a lot of apply pressure in there and they can work when you get like an aftermarket bow body tip up that adebisi convert of course we can see this is a aftermarket billet covered which is this one you can see it has 12 bolt holes that's a new upgrade that we are now selling right and that is mostly for these racer guys if you ever have a flex plate bolt come loose it will - these all up and so you can shift it one hole over because you'd standard you only use six bolts on your flex plate there are 12 bolt flex plates out there they're pain in the butt I hate them don't get a 12 volt flex plate but if you do it's fine just use six of the bolts so if you do get one buggered up you can rotate on one hole and still use your sword murder and not throw away your $1,500 ray squad this that you just bought so so one other thing notice on the bill at one this back covers much heavier the torque converter itself they weigh what about 20 pounds more roughly there's that much more steel in them this big heavy back plate that's what gives them the the strength for the clutch to apply so then we're gonna talk a little bit about single this triple this what what does that mean so a lot of people think of torque murders kind of a mystery they don't really understand how it works there's kind of two main components on a Dodge diesel torque converter this is also same for like a for diesel Allison all these heavy-duty high-performance things but the torque converter has has a lock-up clutch in there what happens when you're sitting out a stop line the lock-up clutch is not engaged that's why the truck can keep running and the car doesn't stall once you're moving that torque converter does some some fluid coupling so in this part it's almost like a series of you think of it like fan blades and fluid pushes on a turbine which is splined into this piece here and this piece here is splined on the input shaft and it turns it but it's all from fluid pushing on fan blades when the the valve body commands lockup that's when you want maximum efficiency or maximum power there's actually a clutch that engages inside that is splined into the same thing and it literally applies a clutch against this back cover which is bolted to the flywheel so basically you're the flex plate it's basically all the power from the engine gets transmitted into this through a clutch which gets transmitted directly in the input shaft there's zero slip so automatic when it's in lockup has zero slippage anywhere none of the clutches nothing is slipping so a lot of guys think automatics are inefficient well when you're going to stop like pulling away yeah they've got some slip built-in but once it's locked up there's no difference between it and like a manual transmission as far as the power that gets to the ground how I like to always envision it is it's a one to one output ratio when you are in lockup so if you look at your torque converter basically this sides bolted to the engine and that's input right and then your transmission input shaft is here coming out of it so you have your input to your torque converter and your output to your torque converter so there's your slippage in between the two and when you lock up you go to your converter and the transmission that's where all your slippage happened okay so we have a little treat for you not a lot of places have cut open torque converters well we have a cut open quad disc from DPC here so you can kind of see that this clutch assembly looks like essentially the clutches are these big monster things these get applied against that Billick back cover there's this ginormous pressure plate here basically these clutches are splined you can see on here this floater plate is swine and then there's another clutch here that's wine and this whole assembly presses down against that bill it covered now you see it has some splines here in the middle these splines once again are engaged on the simplest shaft right here and that's how all that power gets in there so when you have a triple disc that's the thing that's a little funny about torque converters they kind of cheat when they say a single disc they literally have a clutch like this bonded to the metal plate so it has one surface that applies for lockup that's a single disc a double disc has a floating clutch that has two sides you have two friction surfaces that get applied a triple uses three what is the benefit to having multiple surfaces multiple surfaces you can hold more power I mean it's just pure about torque how much torque this clutch can handle now one other thing this is applied by line pressure line pressure is the hydraulic pressure the transmission makes so when your transmission a stock val body makes 90 psi and overdrive there's 90 pounds of force pushing on this hydraulic assembly to apply this clutch takes a lot of force to make it slip when there's 90 pounds per square inch times the whole area is a lot of force on there so you get three clutches in there that same 90 asi now makes three times the amount of force are three times as much torque to make it slip so that's why they want the triple there's more area to wear so it lasts longer and the loads divided up by three surfaces so when I've got my four dirt bikes piled on the back of the trailer and all that power and I'm cruising down 80 miles an hour down the road it's all going through one surface on a single disk correct has to hold all that power and torque that's a lot of power and every time you get a hill and you step on the throttle it'll unlock the torque converter then it's on the stall part of the torque converter or the turbine side and so and then when it's locked it's got to soak up that to three 500 RPM difference so it has to deal with a lot more once it's engaged you'll actually hold quite a bit once it's locked up now if you get a single disc you start making a lot of power you turn up the power in your Cummins you start feeling a little rumble or vibration that's you actually slipping the the lock-up clutch usually and and then your single this it's common on the triple it mean takes a lot of power to slip a triple now this is a quad because there's technically four friction surfaces only three of them are active so really when we say quad disk they're kind of it's kind of a gray area it's its quad in essence that there's four frictions it's heavier duty than the triple because there's more steel here and there's thicker fatter frictions but technically a quad this really only has three active friction surfaces but rather than saying it's a super heavy-duty triple and a regular triple this is they're calling it a quad disk because technically it does have four friction surfaces but only three are active that's just kind of a little quick tidbit so get a lot of guys calling in they want to know what's the difference between a DBC triple disc and a DBC quad disc the DBC triple is a lot like the other brands of triple disc I'm gonna name all but there's several other manufacturers that make triple discs they have a little bit smaller frictions in these they're thinner and and the diameter is a little bit smaller and they basically have one two-sided plate like this that's a little bit thinner and then they have a bonded friction on the ply plate the DPC has this floater plate plus another two-sided friction so this is what you pull that up so this is what you get on the quad to be truth be told though only three of these friction surfaces are active so it's not technically correct to call the quad but it is heavier duty than a regular triple so it's it's what do we want to call it a super-duper triple I I don't know a little quad because if everybody communicates and they all know what you're talking about it stays on the same page it's quad that's what we call them as for friction surfaces they're a little more serviceable that's another reason phil does it for the connor racer hot rod guys with that extra surface in there it protects one of the plates it's a lot faster turnaround for him to service it when it's a quad versus a triple because it doesn't nearly do as much damage to the bill it covered and some of that so when do guys go to a quad versus a triple I have a feeling we're gonna have a lot of guys want and a quad because it's gonna be better but there are some downsides to them also usually around 1200 horsepower is when we're thinking about it a triple will still hold that the main thing on the quad they have a non dampened stator so in the middle on a factory triple or a single disk or a triple disk there's Springs and this whole plate has give built into it makes it engage a little softer so easy on your shaft this also because doesn't have any sprung plates he's a little more prone to a rattling it idle a little more noisy kind of like a double disc clutch for a manual transmission you know like I'd really aggressive sled pull this is kind of like a really aggressive sled pull torque converter so if you want really smooth quiet the triple is definitely better match for you you want the thickest heaviest gnarliest you know most abuse torque converter you can get that's when you play with this quad disc one other thing we've noticed the quad discs they're a little bit more finicky if you have a weak transmission pump that doesn't have good release oil coming in here a little more prone to dragging so you can have an old clapped-out transmission this really isn't the torque converter for you a triple is a much better option Wendy's when do you get guys into a triple disc horsepower why usually usually when we go to our 485 horsepower that's we're going in the triple and it's really horsepowers kind of a it's the way the industry does it but really it's a torque thing you get about a thousand foot pounds of the tire and it will slip a single disc that just there's not enough clutch surface there to handle it and it might handle it short term once it's locked up but you're hauling and towing with a single disc you get up there even I'd see much over 800 foot-pounds and you haul with it regularly you're gonna be blown right through that single disc no problem I mean and once again that's relative to your pressures that your valve body or your transmissions commanding yeah because you have a stock that makes 90 an overdrive or a power driven valve body that might be anywhere from a hundred and what 50 to 200 psi you're getting twice as much apply on that single disc so that's why we can kind of extend that range like that 425 horsepower turning so it has a single disc torque converter and it is sufficient for that however you can make 425 horsepower with compound turbos and make twelve thirteen hundred foot-pounds and we've done it before and it will slip a single disk so horsepower is kind of a sales point to help people understand but really torque is really what tears us up if you're making a lot of torque you're loading the truck heavy you really want a triple disc yeah that's the only thing I'd ever put in mine if it's torn apart it's not worth the hassle that's the whole reason mine got rebuilt in the first place is because the torque converter started slipping so there you go so basically I mean just a little quick recap stator seal 4748 there reverse compatible this seal can come out if you put a forty seven converter in 48 so be careful there being else we wanted to just really hit on lastly I think we've pretty much got it I mean you guys should be able to identify your torque converter now and give us a good core if we need one or if you need a core credit and you'll be able to know what you want mostly let's talk a tiny bit about stall speed guy we've been really missing out on that yeah so stock is about 2,000 rpm yet remember stall speed is based on the power the inches making you turn up the power on a stock converter it might stall to 2,400 when you're at full power so stall speeds kind of like a moving target depending on how much power you make however if you have a big truck with big turbos and you get a really tight efficient torque converter it has a hard time getting enough rpm in the engine to even get the turbos lit it'll make the truck a smoky lazy mess so torque converter stall speed is a really exact science that the factory's worked really hard on to get dialed in and the stock ones work great for stock power you turn up the power you want a little bit more efficient converter that's a little bit tighter or lower stall meaning it grabs the engine earlier or the engine can't push through it as much when it's unlocked when it's unlocked when it's locked none of that matters it's all locked they're all the same so really this is just the pull away from the stoplight power the how well you can brake boost and build boost if you're racing you're going up the mountain when it kicks out of lockup and your rpm goes from 2,000 to 3,000 rpm if as a high stall or if you have a tighter stall it might go from 2,000 to 2,500 when it unlocks the converter all that plays a factor but what's the most common stall speed like 90 percent of people buy we sell mostly a 200 under which is an 1800 rpm a lot of guys so it's a little more efficient than stock but it's not so tight that you can't get your total weight going it's all and once again it comes into your driving style and how you like your truck and you know where your truck runs you know how fast you run it down the freeway our p.m. wise or pulling away from a stop light I mean you know what you feel like say my truck or your stock truck if you take a stock truck it feels like a slush box to me just too much rpm not enough hook up you've got the power there but you're not getting into your tires a little bit tighter stall this is why we sell a lot more of them it gets rid of that feels way better yes it feels much more solid the powers being trans my truck my daily driver with compound turbos if I have a trailer behind me and that converters not locked and I'm accelerating up a steep on-ramp and I've got my foot in it making 5 or 600 horse it feels like even the tightest stall converters to loose I want to get on that lock-up switch and get that thing locked up so I'm like man I'm not going anywhere look I can't accelerate but I have a lot of power you know you get five or six hundred horse I'm have 1200 foot pounds running through that torque converter it was never designed to do that in the unlocked position and so it just it just feels slushy and loose I take my other daily dry I have lots of drivers sorry take my other truck as a single turbo fuel plates pulled out of it ASC live a couple little mods like that the 200 under feels great I tolls on I'm not reaching for that lock-up switch but it doesn't make 5 or 600 horsepower so it doesn't feel like it's a slushy mess when I'm going there so stall speeds kind of all relative really it depends on what you're doing if you're racing you want the stall speed as tight as you can make it and still get your turbo lit at the starting line if you're hauling cattle up the mountain you want as tight as you can tolerate from the stoplight but still get it going because when it unlocks converter on the hill you want that that lower stall so it doesn't rev really high or you need a lock-up switch to be really careful you can force this clutch to lock up whenever you want with a toggle switch so there is so the best feel if you're gonna get a new torque converter a new transmission with us or anybody else just feel how you have your torque converter now and if it feels like a slush box then you know you might want a little tighter if it feels like it's already tight go a little bit looser if you got that power there so there you go you get struck with a big single turbo your lots of guys calling that you're gonna want the 200 over stock minimum that's that's kind of a you know that 2200 some guys they get a big signal like a 76 millimeter turbo they want like a 2400 like a v10 stall so that's why they make all these stall speeds our big UCC race truck it has a converter it's about 3200 stall so it just depends what you're doing with it what you do in the stall speed but that's the magic side there the clutch is the other magic on holding power and beyond that they're really not that complicated inside they're just a mechanical man-made device that helps you get power to ground there's lots of math and engineering to him but we better get a torque through the guy to hear if we give a little more detail on that I think we've been detailed enough this Fargo hey wait thanks for tuning in like subscribe follow our Channel and stick around next time I don't know we're just gonna keep talking about transmission stuff anything you want to know what I do comment in the comment yeah you guys something you want to know what they're showing a 48 Planet 47 or a pumper basically we don't know what the next episode is gonna talk about so the more hits we have on the comments we'll hit those on the net Thanks [Music]

Channel: Power Driven Diesel

Views: 38,576

Rating: 4.9654799 out of 5

Keywords: Power Driven DIesel, diesel power, cummins, duramax, powerstroke, turbo, turbocharger, compound turbos, compounds, triple turbos, 12 valve, dinosour power, horsepower, torque, injectors, dyno, Borg Warner, boost, big boost, Dodge, Chevy, Ford, torque converter, stall converter, high performance converters, diesel torque converter, triple disc torque converter, quad disc torque converter, cummins torque converter, transmission, diesel transmission, diesel engine parts, transmission upgrade

Id: RxP4yHbmGW4

Length: 22min 47sec (1367 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 20 2019