Critical Race Theory: Can Christians Agree to Disagree? (Conversation with Samuel Sey)

how important is critical race theory to christians today is it an issue we can just agree to disagree on or is it simply an analytical tool or is there a worldview embedded within it these are some of the most pressing questions today we need to really wrestle with and i've got a guest today i cannot wait to get his thoughts on this because i heard him on elisa childers podcast started following his blog which is slow to right dot com and was just so impressed that the thoughtfulness the graciousness and yet also the concern you have for this issue and the body of christ so samuel say thanks for coming on all the way from canada thank you so much for having me it's the shortest i've ever had to uh you know take to get to uh anybody well these days we'll use the technology we can we can use well it i'm familiar with your blog we've never met in person i hope someday we can but would you be willing to just introduce yourself to our audience who are you maybe your journey to faith would be awesome um again it's a bit surreal that uh you know sean mcdonald's asking me is asking me about my life i'm very grateful for being here um yeah so i was born in ghana which is in west africa and i was raised by my mom a very godly single mother so i was raised with uh the truth of the gospel however my mom um was involved in a prosperity gospel church so for the first 20 years of my life that's the um that's what i was familiar with that's what i i believed was the biblical gospel um but my mom is a faithful uh believer and uh she raised me with truth um so i always knew that i was a sinner and no one had to convince me that i needed god's grace um i was a and am a deeply sinful person so i i i knew right away um as early as five years old i knew that i needed god's grace so but knowing that didn't change me of course right believing the truth does not change you until god himself makes you born again and regenerates your soul to hate your sin and to love him so um when i was 19 i heard the gospel that i had heard all my life and finally it just clicked god made me born again and i believe the gospel and um i uh i became saved and i remember thinking that what what out my life is there's no meaning to my life if i'm not living it for christ christ is precious so i become saved i end up leaving the prosperity gospel uh world and then i um i'm because of that i started writing about why i disagree with the prosperity gospel movement so that developed my passion for writing uh it was an easier way of communicating to others and i'm not a natural speaker i prefer writing than speaking so i that developed that um love for writing and then when the black lives matter protest uh became big in 2014 i i created my blog so who are some of the key books or people or experiences that shape your view of race um shape my view of race uh vadi bokum is a major major influence um so he just wrote i know the book fault lines which we'll probably talk about uh eventually um yes really really good book uh but before that um you know some of his articles or sermons on race were very um impactful for me um other than that i i had well there's a book by um a man that i wouldn't really agree with very much on racial issues now but anthony bradley uh wrote a book um forgetting the title now i think it's called just on black liberation theology or something like that and it was a very very helpful book to help me understand liberation theology um and then there are other heroes of mine there is karen boy uh he's a pastor in zambia um but he didn't he didn't necessarily address racial issues but he would address uh just yeah african issues um but then packed with good theology and i was shaping my view of truth and uh biblical theology so i've had a number of conversations with my black friends about crt and recently at biola we had an event where the students want to hear about critical race theory so i brought a black friend and i and we talked about it one of the things he said is he said you know i wish i wasn't just here to talk about critical race theory i wish we were here just about how to talk about justice for the black community he says i'll come because it's a foot in the door but it seems like the white church cares more about critical race theory and critiquing it than genuinely helping the black community that was his perspective yet you choose to write and critique critical race theory why do you make that such a focus of your writing in your ministry that's a that's a great question um there's a theological answer to that then it's also an experiential answer to that okay when i when i became a christian i was involved in a black church uh as i had been my whole life and then i ended up believing that because that particular church as i said earlier was teaching a different gospel and then i joined a a white church a i was a dutch reformed church i was the first black person to ever walk into this church and my experiences there made me realize that i felt more at home at this church than i did in the other church because they were preaching the truth and then i had friends of mine who had just you know left the prosperity gospel world these are also black friends of mine across canada across the us and the uk so we're all leaving our black churches to go into these white churches and we feel just as welcomed they felt just as welcome as i did wow this is around 2008 till 2014. i mentioned that because 2014 that's when the whole world changes essentially when michael brown is killed by darren wilson in um in ferguson and that starts the black lives matter movement essentially and then all of a sudden a lot of these friends that i had um been growing with in the faith from across the world all these black friends of mine all of a sudden were telling me they are uncomfortable in these churches that they loved just because now their pastors are saying they don't agree with black lives matter they don't embrace critical race theory and i'm thinking wait a minute wait a minute what happened and i think the reason why i'm saying all this is there's as vadi bokum says there's always been an issue that was we've not addressed which is the issue of world views as they put as it deals with politics culture and race we've been avoiding that so then when the world started talking about it we were unprepared for that so then a lot of my peers a lot of my friends had some of these views going into these churches and because it was not being addressed from the pulpit there are different views already so that when the culture addressed it that you know there was a distrust from a lot of my peers with their pastors and their white friends so that i wanted to blog about these issues because of my experiences with that but also theologically theologically the bible says that love does not rejoice at wrongdoing but it rejoices in the truth i write about these issues because i love black people black people are you know well i'm a black person i don't hate myself my mom is black my most of my friends are black and i love you know just anybody who's black because they're made in the image of god the same way white people are i love black people just as much as i love white people i don't love black people or anybody hopefully anyways more than anybody else because they made an image of god so i wanna so that's why i write on these issues because of my experiences and because of um by the grace of god my love for people well that comes through in your writings you have a razor sharp commitment to truth and a love for people which i appreciate the book you've mentioned my body a couple times uh fault lines i've read it twice and there's a statement on 137 and he's he's critical of some people people like david platt people like timothy keller people like eric mason who i've actually had in this show recently but he writes this and he's critical them in terms of their approach to critical race theory he writes while i'm aware that there are extremes at play that threaten to obscure the gospel i'm convinced that much of what we are seeing today is disagreement between well meaning brothers and sisters who are arguing around the margins but holding fast to the center the gospel and then he says however i must admit that hope is fading fast do you agree with it that it's not at its heart a gospel issue we're debating about right now but that seems to be on the horizon yeah absolutely uh i wrote an article several years ago um i'm not trying to promote my blog but i think it was titled um black from immigration please please promote your blog it's simply outstanding wow wow thank you um so yeah so uh at my slaughterwright.com um blog there's an article i think it's titled black liberation theology and woke christianity and in the article i i say that black liberation theology is basically developed by james cohn and it is a explicitly heretical ideology woke christianity however is not heretical at all these are my brothers these are people who many of them including the names you mentioned earlier i i believe love christ more than i do there are god leader and wiser man than i am however on this particular issue they are wrong and they are divisively and destructively wrong and um so while right now they are embracing the true gospel there are seeds of what they're saying that are actually leading to and tempting that's going to lead many people astray and i've seen some actually being led astray because it's pointing them towards the liberation heretical theology or gospel that is completely of course different from the true gospel okay so give me an example of one of the seeds that you're talking about we're gonna unpack this some more but essentially i hear you saying that this is not at its heart a gospel issue these are brothers sisters in christ but this worldview is seeping its way in and threatens the heart of the gospel if we don't stop it soon so if i stated that correctly give me an example of where you see that potentially seeping in or actually sitting in thank you um so there are several but i will i can start off at at the core of critical race theology which is that the every institution in in the world or particularly in america or canada in my case is um is tainted by racism including the church now we know as christians that of course we know that original sin is a reality that we are all fallen people the difference here though is they while they would not necessarily say this in the exact same way because of their rhetoric because of how they define racism the the natural conclusion then is white people are more fallen than black people because not because of their human nature necessarily but because of their skin color which is why you'd have men like tabiti saying that white people need to need to repent for their ancestors sins concerning racism which is not a biblical uh thinking at all your skin color does not make you guilty of the same sins that other people whether they are um whether you know you are relatives or not it doesn't matter your skin color does not make you guilty for sin that you need to repent of um you also have a redefinition of racism this idea that racism is not always intentional or that which is necessarily about partiality is completely contrary to the scriptures racism is partiality racism is being uh is favoring one person or or favoring or or showing information sorry let me sit down showing partiality against another person because of their skin color right that is racism but a lot of these critical race theories within the church would say no essentially racism is just any white person who is not challenging um the institutions in america or in the church and then and then by saying that they're actually saying i'm sure again they would not say this explicitly but that the bible itself is racist right because so arabian d'angelo for example says that if you believe that racism is always intentional then that's actually a racist thinking iran candy would say the same thing and i know many christians who believe this that by believing that it's always intentional that it's always partiality that you are actually then defending racism so one of the concerns you said is it's a different gospel is potentially creeping its way in here are you also concerned about uh division that critical race theory has brought because when i was telling my wife this morning how central of a theme unity is within the body of christ the book of ephesians is all about unity does that concern you as well critical race theory or is it the lack of people being willing to engage racism the problem or both absolutely i'm glad you mentioned that they my ass as was too long so i didn't want to address fishings too but that is one of the fun oh thank you that's one of the most us one of the most fundamental issues with critical race theory in the church in that critical race theorists make christians the agents of reconciliation when that's not the case right in ephesians 2 christ is the one that reconciles us it's already happened i get really frustrated when i hear christians say black people and white people need to reconcile i'm like no it's happened already he's already destroyed the dividing world of hostility ephesians 2 it's already happened we've already been reconciled we simply need to believe it and act like it which is all in ephesians three four and five we simply need to live worthy of our reconciliation in christ so and then here's a problem of course men cannot reconcile others better than god so then by trying to say that we are the agents of racial reconciliation we fail at that because then we're using man-centered means to accomplish what god himself has already accomplished and then that leads to division right so um that is the concern because right now i've said this before that in the church we are much more although critical race theory is growing you would think that it would lead to greater unity but of course not is dividing us all the more including even black christians against black christians because if you're not embracing critical race theory you're seen as defending racism within the church oh man that's that is really hard heartbreaking stuff so let me let me make sure i'm tracking with you here one of the big debates i just read a blog in mere orthodoxy from the last couple days is whether or not critical race theory is an analytical tool used by academics or whether it's an ideology where do you land on that question and why i think it's a bit of both um okay critical race theorists critical race theories do use this as an analytical tool absolutely but it's based on their world view there's no denying that in fact kimberly crenshaw does who is one of the original founders of critical race theory does say that it is a world view it's an ideology based on marxism and post-modernism right so this is they admit this in their own writing but i think a lot of christians recognize that if you admit that it is a worldview then you have to really deal with the contradictions between that worldview and christ so i think many of them then um deceive themselves by or others by accepting that is just an analytical tool now every worldview of course does um every view leads to analytical tool of course it does right but critical race theory based on postmodernism post modernism and marxism is heavily heavily um and you see that even within the church right so for example um the way we understand race in the church today the way we understand you know as it's happened already uh this year uh police shootings for example there is a world view that leads us to believing that that leads us to making conclusions as a christian my world view is the bible tells me that i am to be slow to speak i am to assume the best of people i'm to believe all things hope all things as a critical race theorist you already believe that the institutions are already racist so when you see a cop shooting a black person your media thought is it's racism and you're looking for ways to just confirm or affirm your worldview that concerns me because i sent out a a tweet i can't remember maybe a year ago and it was a picture of five books i was reading on race kind of like your blog on 10 resources to read on critical race through which i would suggest for anybody who's listening right now i think i plugged in the description but search samuel say books recommended on critical race theory very very helpful so i took a picture posted on twitter and said hey here's books i'm reading now why did i do that people ask me all the time hey what are you reading on this journey book recommendation so on instagram i started actually a weekly game changing book of the week a book that was so significant it shifted my thinking in some fashion so i think it's worth those who follow me their time and effort to read it so that's why i posted on twitter and a woman came back who's a minority and she said why are you virtue signaling i thought wait a minute first off how do you know my heart people ask me as a professor what books am i reading i'm not going to say i'm above not having the right motives but in that situation it it surprised me so my question for you is are you more concerned that there's racism that's taking place and we're not observing it which is what critical race theory says racism is there or are you more concerned that we are reading racist motivations and intentions when they're not present or both i think it has to be both um because and i've experienced this within critical race theory there is already racism within it it is while they would deny it of course by judging people based on their skin color by thinking that people's skin colors is the most really the most important thing about them that in of itself is racism but the but attributing false motives to people is also a a strong strong strong concern of mine and uh i i'll if you know i'll give this example um about how dangerous it is i've said this before but several years ago i was walking in a tunnel and this tunnel in my area is a very dark lonely scary tunnel especially for this person that i'm going to mention this is a small white woman who was walking towards me and immediately she sees me and it's just two of us in this tunnel and she gets terrified and she um goes as far away from me as she possibly could clutches her purse and runs away immediately i'm thinking oh just you know yet again here is uh you know this racist white woman thinking the worst of me assuming the worst of me it's because i'm black as i keep walking i'm thinking about it and i ask myself questions and i say well wait a minute is it really because i'm black what if she was a small black woman would i have assumed that she was racist well of course not but why because of her skin color then i'm thinking well what if she's experienced abuse and instead of considering her as being more significant than myself which the bible calls me to in philippians i am instead pridefully um you know putting myself above her in a very sinful fashion and then i explain that you know i don't know her motives god calls that's not my job god calls me to hope all things believe all things assume the best of her but what i know is i'm a racist i was assuming the worst of her because of her skin color i mentioned that point because critical race theory is always focusing on the supposed racism of other people but they reject their own racism wow which leads to major problems that our sins are not being addressed which makes us all the worse and then we are um we are slandering other people which is then hurting them so then i am being moved further further away from the truth and then they are now being tempted to question themselves unjustifiably it is a problem for me and for other people which is why i'm saying to i keep saying to people that uh critical race theory is not just about black people or white people it's about human nature and the gospel and how we are by embracing these ideologies pushing people away from truth and love in the gospel and then by doing it of course you become all the more divided so does crt have anything to teach us does it offer as a tool any positives or do you dismiss it as a tool entirely because of the negative side and concerns you've raised yeah i've thought about this um a lot because um since i write about critical race theory so often i really considered uh an article about one thing i appreciate about critical race theory i honestly couldn't find one i've read as many critical race theory books as i as i can for the last several uh well i mean for the last year i can't there's only one thing that comes to mind but even then that's not a critical race theory it's not it's not a novel for critical race theory just truth that they just affirm and that is the idea that race is a social construct but that's just borrowed from biblical truth so i appreciate that that they say that but the problem is they don't live like it right so they say there's a social construct but then they say that since it is a social construct we then need to therefore live under um the constru the construct that society has has uh oppressed us with so even the good thing that they say they contradict it with their theories and their ideas so i really can't think of one single thing from critical race theories that i appreciate when i think about post-modernism my reflections are similar they'll talk about epistemological humility because we're limited they'll talk about the power of narrative and those are embedded within post-modernism but they're not unique to post-modernism i'm not quite sure uniquely what post-modernism as post-modernism adds that can't be found elsewhere sounds like that's how you view critical race theory now a minute ago one of the things you're doing that i think is important is when you told the story of walking through that tunnel the woman who looked at you and responded is you had an experience but rather than interpreting it just through a racist lens which critical race theory says the question is not is their racism but how is race present you seem to say okay wait a minute am i seeing all the facts am i interpreting this through certain lens what's a more charitable way to interpret this we don't see people doing that today in fact we're taught to assume the worst in other people why do you approach things like that where i've seen you on your blog a couple times you had a take i think it was on maybe the george floyd incident and then you came back said you know what i need to revisit this because i responded too quickly it was my bad i don't see a lot of people doing that tell me why you do that and what your encouragement would be for other people watching who may be not as inclined to take that approach um i as i said earlier i was ra for the first 20 21 years of my life what i thought was biblical truth i realized wasn't i have some experiences that i could have sworn to people was um it's a biblical fact a spiritual fact that you say but i was not reading my bible and when i read my bible i realized that what i believed to be true was wrong the point is is that i am a fallible person i can be wrong every single person i've ever spoken to or who has ever spoken to me can be wrong and have been wrong god can never be wrong god cannot be and i have his word that the almighty god the creator of the universe has spoken and i have that in my room i have that i can take that with me why should i trust in my folly instead of the wisdom of god you know um the reason why i do mention my experiences is to because in our because of standpoint epistemology our culture really believes that your experiences your perceptions define truth so i intentionally bring them in that way and then i i do a bit of a twist and enforce them not force them but compel them to look to what god himself has said in his word that's because and i i you know all scripture is god breathe it is inspired it is infallible and it is for man to make for people for you know his people to make us competent and make us ready for every good work it is to train us in righteousness the bible is the greatest anti-racist book true anti-racism book that we have not robbing deangelo not abraham candy not anybody i love vadi bokum and i agree with him but fault lines as brilliant as it is it is inc it cannot be compared to the word of god the bible is sufficient and so when we know that it's sufficient it's authoritative it's inspired it is infallible it cannot be wrong why can we not why do we why would we not want to shape um every thought every idea everything that we hold to that we care about why wouldn't we want that to be shaped by the word of god and that's why i i love truth i know that god is truth his word is truth so i want to obey that and follow it i love that i think you're right about scripture i just wrote a blog earlier this week about how from the first book in the bible genesis we see god's heart for all people all nations all ethnicities so the creation story in genesis 1 and 2 is not about the jewish people you don't hear about abraham until genesis 12 adam and eve are the descendants of all of us but then even in genesis 12 the abrahamic covenant he chooses a nation so they'll be a blessing to the other nations and then we also see another example in jacob and esau there's an entire chapter in the bible or section of it committed to the descendants of esau even though he's not a part of the covenant god loves and values and cherishes him too and that's just the first book in the bible so i'm with you i think that's such a such a good point now you mentioned something about how our experiences and narratives are held up within critical race theories being authoritative and there's something called standpoint epistemology and vadi refers to it as ethnic gnosticism which is a part of crt he says which means people have special access to knowledge based solely on their ethnicity now sammy i wonder if you can help me with something because i'm wondering how we balance listening to people and their unique experiences without affirming that people are right or wrong because of the amount of melanin in their skin and let me give an example and admittedly this is a bad example don't read too much into this but one of the questions people ask me all the time is i'll say what's it like to be the son of josh mcdowell what's it like to have a famous dad now why do they ask me that because that's a unique experience i have and a kind of authority i can speak into that somebody without that experience is not going to have i could say what's it like to be from canada there's a range of different experiences we have where we have insights that other people don't have but i also assume the fact that they ask me means i can communicate to them and they can discover truth so how do we keep in balance the fact that for example on racial issues black people and other minorities have an experience that i don't have and i've learned a ton from just listening to my minority friends that has been very eye-opening without taking the mistake critical race theory affirms which is that you're right or wrong based upon your melanin uh i i appreciate that that example actually it's not a bad example at all i think it's a very good example um if somebody was asking me so i'm an immigrant if somebody say hey sam what are your thoughts on the immigration process my thoughts is are not um how do i say this my thoughts are not authoritative that's a key word here i may give an insight as to what the process is like but i do not have insight in what is ideal what is just god is the king god is a god of justice and his word has given us um instructions and commands that we need to follow to obey him in righteousness i mentioned that because when people say listen to black people they don't really mean listen to their thoughts and their own opinions they mean obey them obey us anyways as an authoritative voice on truth it's one thing if you're saying we just want to understand your experiences better so i always tell people that um you know i was cringe when some people readily dismiss some people's experiences with racism if a black person has is telling someone that they've had a racist event in their life that troubles them biblically the person is supposed to again believe all things hope all things and mourn with their with their brother or sister if that person is still in mourning over it but it doesn't mean that you disregard the bible to affirm their view that really means you're saying that person is more authoritative than god on truth so when it comes to things like um again it comes to mind because of just recent events but police shootings we black people do not have different eyes than white people we all have the same eyes we may have different experiences that might tempt us into thinking differently than other people or that might lead us to thinking differently period right or wrong however the experiences of course do not shape truth god does and really facts do so um going back to your example with you and your dad you have special insight because of the experiences that um that i can't have but your descriptions of your father for example is not necessarily the truth just because you say so because if even though i've never met your dad or ever spoken to him if i if i have a video of him eating forgive me for this i'm just thinking of a random example of him eating a burger right i'm seeing him eating a burger and you say well but you know your dad he's never eating a burger you just know him i just can't say well let me forget my eyes let me forget the video that i've seen just because you know better than i do right so i would say well of course you know him better so i can believe that maybe he doesn't he rarely eats burgers but in this particular case here that's what i saw so um when it comes to your standpoint epistemology there are experiences that are helpful but they're not necessarily authoritative in shaping what we should receive as truth samuel i can tell you that is the best answer i've heard that people with unique experiences will tend to see things but it doesn't mean they're right and other people can't see them and can't challenge those experiences because we all have biases i think that's that's beautiful that's super helpful i've wrestled with that so let me let me take this a step further how can we be critical of unbiblical ideas embedded within crt yet not dismiss it wholesale and lack compassion for those who are hurting now let me flesh out what i mean by this we've talked about crt as a tool other people talk about it as an ideology i just saw a post again in my orthodoxy where the author talked about crt as a mood meaning some people that i've written about in particular certain black pastors and writers have felt like when white people just dismiss crt their experience is that it's dismissing their concern and their hurt and a potential tool that could help to understand racial relations now whether that's true or not is beside the point but that's how they see it so i'm trying to navigate these waters between saying i have real concern about crt but i don't want to flippantly dismiss it in a way that i just don't listen to somebody and try to love somebody and understand where they're coming from how in your mind do you balance those two concerns i'm trying to watch how i would say this carefully um take your time take your time yeah i i do want to be so to speak um so i would answer it this way jesus christ is the most gentle patient loving person that has ever walked the earth and yet he's the most offensive person that has ever walked the earth because of what he said because of the truth not because he's a sinful person of course not he is righteous sure um that's not to say that we should have it we should ever want to needlessly offend people or sinfully offend people by no means i mention that because the truth biblical truth will offend people with that being said i think sometimes the we we interpret critical race theory as the natural inclination for black people and well i suppose in a sense because this is a sinful ideology um it's natural for people to accept of course sinful ideology but it also but then i mentioned that because it assumes that black people are naturally disposed to embracing critical race theory but that's not true it's it's become the norm now because of years and years of i i call it repaying evil for evil white supremacy of course has tempted many black people into bitterness and critical race theory is a sinful response to that but also our culture is telling black people that this if you're a black person you're supposed to accept critical race theory which leads to many people of course embracing it but my i'm saying all that to say by rejecting critical race david you're not rejecting black people and if a person feels that way because a white if a black person feels that they're being rejected just because a white person is saying that critical race theory is wrong one of them needs to repent and it's not the white person it's the black person wow because the black person is is again assuming motives on that person assuming that by that person rejecting an ideology or even an ethical tool and you know depending on how somebody might want to you know understand that they're just assuming that the white person or in my case me as a black person because people do believe that by rejecting critical race theory i'm rejecting black people they're assuming that you that those two are are that black people are completely tied to critical race three when that's not true so speak the truth in love but speak the truth knowing that no matter what some people will feel that way because of their own sin and not necessarily your i love it that's super helpful and i think this leads me into my next question you wrote this on your blogs and i just i i had to pause for a minute i didn't expect it but you said you've been called uncle tom more by believers and i think if i understood correctly because you're critical of critical race theory than that n word by unbelievers why would that be the case [Music] um it's because there i think a lot of reasons um but one a lot of see we we christians have a natural passion for um for justice a lot of people a lot of christians have have been deceived into believing that critical race theory is biblical justice so they've so they have this passion this good passion for justice but because they're deceived they're now passion for something sinful and because of that passion for sin now they've they're they've become eager to in their sin use these words against me um because many of them they've told me this they believe that guys like myself black men like myself are giving white people an excuse to reject critical race theory which they believe is biblical truth which makes them all the more frustrated at people like myself and um when i say that i know was shocking to a lot of people but i can probably count the number of times i've been called the n-word i honestly cannot count the number of times i've been called an uncle tom a or similar i i cannot i i i probably receive in one month wow more of those racial slurs than i have you know than i've been called the n word my entire life and believe me i've had some painful painful experiences with being called the n word i'm not easily offended but there was um someone that i grew up that well one of my teachers for a whole year would call me that and other racial slurs it was extremely difficult being a a young teenage boy and then a man that i once respected calling me that and feeling powerless to do anything about it and yet that of course is significantly less painful than people that i call my brothers in the faith feeling justified and being eager to call me an uncle tom regularly um so yeah well i know that's not why you hear what you're looking for but i'm sorry you get treated that way it grieves me that our dialogue descends to that rather than listening giving the benefit out being willing to question our own assumptions that you'd be called a name like that so i'm sorry thanks for speaking truth and not losing your commitment to love which comes through on your blog now you have a blog about an experience you had at ambrose university and i'm curious kind of on two levels number one are you concerned with crt infiltrating christian schools christian universities and what was your experience like at ambrose yeah um you know so to answer your question uh you know you mentioned that am i am i um concerned that it's being introduced to christian schools it already has um i i cannot i know many many schools and i would say the vast majority of christian schools have now have either they fully embraced it or they're in a process of embracing it it's that bad um i've been able to um i've become familiar with a lot of cases of this happening in a lot of christian schools in canada and the us uh and i'm deeply concerned by it um and you know that's that's why ambrose um that situation is it's i find it very fascinating because it was on black history month just this past uh february and they invited me to speak but i guess they did not know um i didn't lie to them at all they just didn't know um i guess what i would be saying they assumed because i was black they assumed because of my skin color that of course i would agree with them which of course is racist um but they don't but here's the thing critical race theory as we're saying earlier in their passion for racism they do not consider the racist means they use to get to being anti-racist um so yeah absolutely i was invited to speak on racism and um the title of the um of the talk was what is racism and i basically just went through second timothy 3 16 to 19 i believe and then james two verse one to four and i basically explained that look racism is partiality racism is no different than me showing favor to someone because they are taller than others or because they're more handsome than others or because um they are black and others aren't uh partially like when when a racist stands before god they're going to be judged for the same sin as i have for being partial to ghanaians over over nigerians which i have done before racism it's a serious sin but not because it's more than partiality but because it's partiality but our society we really believe that racism is is is some uh unpardonable sin that's completely different than impartiality when it's not so i explained that and i also said that concerning systemic racism systemic racism therefore then is systemic partiality that if we're going to accuse our governments of systemic racism or any or any any other group of of um systemic racism we then have to prove partiality within the system otherwise it's slander and i said i know for a fact that no one can produce a single racist law in canada or america and i asked them to challenge me on it if they could and as and not a single person could so then i said if if we cannot find a racist law if you can't find racism within the system then we are slandering the government and we're in sin if we believe and and say this um i asked them for questions there was no there were no questions and then about a week or two later i heard that the school was very angry with the the talk uh and then of course it led to them writing a letter um about two weeks ago denouncing me without mentioning my name because of course they wouldn't want people to know that they're denouncing a black man wow um and then it became a bit of national news here in canada and then they ended up um taking down um the letter without i don't judge people's motives but they basically were just saying they're going to maintain their they change their policy to make sure that guys like myself can no longer come to the school uh and say truth anymore i guess but they uh removed it because um and they said that they were removing it because they're committed to free speech although that their actions show that that's necessarily not true let me press a little bit to understand when you say you couldn't find a racist law the way race is understood in crt is anything that leads to non-equity so if there's a law that results in more black people being arrested or affected than white people it's necessarily racist because it's outcome-based what do you mean when you say a racist law do you mean one that intentionally targets to affect a minority in some negative fashion explain that for me yeah yeah i mean precisely a law that is that shows partiality against black people or any other uh um group um but particularly black people and there is a single law today of course you had uh slavery then you had especially the jim crow laws which were very explicit but today you don't have a law that shows partiality against black people anymore um now you're right that critical race theories do define racism by outcome and not by intent but of course that's unbiblical that is not if that's the case then god is a racist um because and and that's yeah and you know because that is not god's law the mosaic law does not um god did not create that god did not base justice but god did not establish justice based on outcome but by by impartiality and by proportionality so that is how we should be defining uh unjust laws or just loss and then i i've mentioned this before too um that we see in the parable of talents um you know while of course skin color isn't an issue there but a pair of talents got or the master gives um gives uh his his servants uh three different talents the the five the two and the one and i may i make a point of saying that well what if the person that received one talent was black would that would that change the the story well according to critical race theory it would it would then mean that although the master was not being intentionally racist by outcome he is racist which would then mean that christ uh by exchanging that example or by sharing that parable he himself is in sin um you know in in affirming the master as being a righteous person in that i see it common here somebody says there are racist laws for example crack cocaine cocaine and how that affects the black community vadi responds to that in his book and he says it's not that this law was targeted against black people you also have to take the rise in crime that was correlated with this as well so i haven't probed the details of that uh but your point is when we go a little bit deeper uh there's another story that's often not told now you have at least uh two i got a few more questions for you uh first those of us just joined us and i should have said this like a half an hour ago i got lost up in the conversation we hear the sam you say who blogs at slowtoright.com slowtowrite.com even if you disagree with them it is a thoughtful biblically based blog you need to follow and read and engage with uh you have at least two blogs that i could come across on systemic racism and one you said quote in fact there isn't any evidence for systemic racism today because systemic racism doesn't exist not anymore now those are clear fighting lines that got a congressman in trouble just this week but tell me why you don't think there's systemic racism anymore at least in the say the us and canada yeah um and just to be clear when i say that so i am using the very meaning of the word and not necessarily the critical race thinking um because it was still carmichael that came up with the term um systemic racism and he meant it the way critical race theories understand the word today but as i said before when i say sorry when i say systemic racism i'm referring to systemic partiality there's no more there's there's no more laws that are showing part that shows partiality against black people that ended with the jim crow laws in the 60s okay now there's still some bad loss today there are bad laws today absolutely there are laws that are unwise and unjust but they do not specifically target um black people the way they used to before and um again so someone mentioned the crack uh epidemic the irony i don't remember now but i think body book may have mentioned this in the book it was actually black activists and black leaders who were calling for um these these laws to be placed because they were meant to help black people because black black people were being destroyed by by the crack epidemic and they were asking for this in fact nixon and um nixon and reagan were reluctant to do so and they said well by being reluctant to help out black people by increasing by being more firm on um on crack and putting black men in jail you're actually being racist that was the argument then so it was only when it became a disaster that did not work that's when it became defined as a racist um um racist um approach by the american government when again it's not even it did not target black people but even if someone believes that it was actually black politicians and leaders who were calling for it i've got one last big question for you that uh might be the most important question we ask but those of you who are following this uh make sure you hit subscribe we've got some interviews coming up with jack phillips who's the baker in colorado uh who has taken two cases to the supreme court he has a new book coming out uh michael wilder to talk about mormonism carl truman to come on to talk about the road of the sexual revolution we've got some crazy awesome interviews coming up here this channel is sponsored by talbot apologetics make sure you hit subscribe so you don't miss out here's my last question for you samuel when i was reading white fagility by robin d'angelo maybe a year and a half two years ago i got to the end and i forget the exact wording but she said what do we do with racism and she said act work to change things and i was reading that it hit me i thought oh my goodness this is a works based salvation there's no gospel there's no grace there's no forgiveness all efforts apart from the gospel at the heart are going to be window dressing so i'm going to ask you to speak to the camera to brothers and sisters in christ who are tempted to buy into certain ideas of crt that are not just a tool but world view embedded that are challenging unity but also undermining the gospel what encouragement would you have for them you know i know that so many people see what's happening in our culture and they want to act um they may not fully understand and i get emails from many people saying they don't understand but they want to do something they want to show black people they love them god has already given you exactly what you need to do he's it's in the bible it may sound boring but it's not it is true god knows black people better than anyone does god created black people god is a god of justice he's a god of love you cannot love someone more than they incur [Music] if you love black people love them or love us that god calls you to which is to love your neighbor as yourself because you love god but i beg you you are not to show partiality for black people i don't want someone to favor me over white people i want you to love me the way god commands you to which is to rebuke me and correct me when i am deviating from truth one of the biggest concerns here is with critical race theory being embraced in the church there are so many people now who are refusing to love black people they may think they are but they are rejoicing and justifying wrongdoing love hopes all things believes all things and that of course i guess as i just said it does not rejoice at wrongdoing so i beg you i beseech you commit yourself under the mighty word of god and if you do so you will love me because you're loving him sammy that was beautiful i could not have said that better myself it comes back to the gospel and the greatest commandment love god and love other people that's what christians are called to do i give as many amens to that as i can if you be up for it someday i know you do a lot of work in pro-life let's have a follow-up question in some time and i want to hear about your work and your passion in that area there's quite a few comments that are like bring samuel back bring this guy have him back on um so if you're if you're up for it would be thrilled to have you back at some point again those of you watching go to slowtowrite.com and subscribe to samuel say that's s-e-y his blog it's just fantastic it's insightful and again even if you've been watching this going i see things differently you owe it to yourself to read different perspectives of someone who's biblical gracious and thoughtful and i think that's exactly what you do before we're gone make sure this channel is brought to you in partnership with biola talbot apologetics we have a full distance program now samuel so we have people in canada in the uk in africa all around the world doing a full distance program getting a masters in apologetics or if you want some formal training but aren't ready for masters we actually have a certificate program and the details are below significant discount for checking out this channel make sure you hit subscribe we've got some great interviews coming up and this summer we have lined up some people i'm giddy to think about who i get a chance to talk with because i have so many questions for them but samuel uh please hang on don't take off yet but thank you for your work thanks for your boldness thanks for your clarity i really look forward to doing this again well thank you i'm um you mentioned names uh i'm just i don't know how i don't know what i'm doing here i don't know why you want to interview me or have me back i'm i'm surprised i'm very grateful thank you my pleasure

Channel: Dr. Sean McDowell

Views: 43,036

Rating: 4.8989525 out of 5

Keywords: critical race theory, critical theory, worldview, ideas, culture, history, race, racial tension, racial reconciliation, theology, church

Id: 0nnKB4MoTUM

Length: 60min 12sec (3612 seconds)

Published: Wed May 05 2021