Conversion Therapy & Canada’s Assault on Christianity | Guest: Dr. Joseph Boot | Ep 538

[Music] hey guys welcome to relatable happy tuesday hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far today i am super super excited for you to listen to this conversation that i just recorded with dr joseph boot he is a pastor out of canada we're talking about canada's new conversion therapy law what it means what the consequences are what the theological issues are that are at play here and how christians christian parents christian pastors christian counselors can respond to this faithfully and towards the end of our conversation is as he is talking about the gospel and the theological aspects of this i just felt just so fired up and i just felt the holy spirit in our conversation truly because there is so much at stake but there's just so much goodness in scripture and i truly love talking about it especially with someone who knows the word of god so well and is bold to apply it and speak it so you're going to be blessed by this conversation challenged by this conversation particularly if you are on the other side of the aisle but i encourage you to listen to this with an with an open heart and i will just pray that there is fertile soil in the hearts of the people who are listening to you and watching this and that if you don't know and believe the gospel that you will all right without further ado here is our new friend dr joseph boot dr boot thank you so much for joining us first can you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do sure uh i'm uh the founder and president of the ezra institute here in canada which is a christian think tank philosophy seminar we do christian world view and cultural apologetics writing teaching training and publishing and i'm also the founding pastor of westminster chapel in toronto got it well thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us about what i know has been a hotly debated at least in some circles issue in canada and that is this what's referred to as a banning of conversion therapy this law just passed unanimously as i read it can you tell us what this law is what do they say it is politicians who advocate for it and then what is it actually in your estimation well they say it's uh a ban on a a practice called conversion therapy actually they say treatment service or practice called conversion therapy the difficulty is they don't actually define what conversion therapy is it's it's clearly includes what we would call uh talk therapy which is people talking uh getting counseling speaking to their pastor and so forth about issues of gender identity and and orientation so the bill uh its first incarnation was bill c6 um when parliament uh broke up uh of course it died and then it was reintroduced as bill c4 in its first incarnation 62 uh members of parliament voted against it um but in this second round the big shock and it was a big shock to many was that it was the conservative um members of the house that actually proposed the fast tracking of the bill which then got fast tracked through the senate without discussion or debate and one significant change uh between bill c6 and bill c4 is that the original bill c6 would have allowed an adult a consenting adult to um take counselling uh go to therapy go and speak to their pastor for uh repeated discussions about gender identity um their sexual desires unwanted uh sexual desires or unwanted same-sex attraction um and this bill now outlaws it for consenting adults as well so the claim is that it's a bill uh to prevent harmful uh practices of conversion therapy and what that brings to people's minds is sort of electric shock therapy and and sort of coercive practices which there's no evidence that anybody practices right so the real target of the bill and the reason there's been an unwillingness i believe to actually define conversion therapy um is actually conversion itself i would argue that this is not an anti-conversion therapy bill because it because therapy is not really defined well it's defined so broadly as to be um the practice treatment or service any practice treatment or service that changes a person's sexual orientation to heterosexual change a person's gender identity to cisgender change a person's gender expression so that it conforms to a sex assigned at birth or repress or reduce non-heterosexual attraction or sexual behavior that would capture preaching by the way and repress a person's non-cisgender gender identity or to repress or reduce a person's gender expression that does not conform to the sex that does not conform to the sex assigned to them at birth so it doesn't actually define conversion therapy it just says that nobody can seek help counsel either parents for their children or a consenting adult with unwanted same-sex desire or gender dysphoria confusion about sexual orientation unless they are wanting to pursue gender transition that's okay that's not conversion therapy conversion therapy is not if you get counsel or therapy or guidance or treatment to transition uh in inverted commas it only covers those who would affirm the body that you were born with the gender the sex you're born with um and say that normative human sexuality is male and female and normative sexual relationships are man woman male and female in the in in for the christian in the context of marriage so c4 c6 c6 is actually harsher it sounds like than c4 yet c4 had some conservative opposition to it and c6 was expedited and passed unanimously that's the other one oh other way around okay yes c4 was the new one past unanimously yeah that was that was actually toughened up okay that's also a little bit confusing so c4 is the latest version expedited passed unanimously without conservative opposition without any debate my question is and maybe you don't know the answer to this maybe no one does what transpired between c6 and c4 i mean typically in the states that means that conservatives got something that they want in the bill it was less harsh than what they were afraid of in the first place and so that's why they decided to vote for it but it's actually the opposite it sounds like progressives or liberals got more of what they want and now conservatives don't oppose it so what went on there well your analysis is correct uh and uh the the difficulty and what's mystifying conservative social conservatives here and of course people have even written to their mps and senators to ask the question what on earth happened how did we go from 62 mps objecting to this first incarnation of the bill to uh a few weeks later um there being bill c four presented well when when parliament came back and then within just a few weeks um the conservatives themselves fast-tracking this bill passed any kind of scrutiny any kind of debate any kind of discussion any kind of amendment which you would expect with a bill of this nature and it's important to understand that the the the preamble to this bill just so that um viewers are aware the preamble to this bill which sets up the bill of why it's supposedly necessary says this whereas conversion therapy causes harm to society because among other other things it is based on and propagates myths and stereotypes about sexual orientation gender identity and gender expression including the myth that heterosexuality cisgender identity and gender expression that conforms to the sex assigned to a person at birth are to be preferred over other sexual orientations gender identities and gender expressions whereas in light of those harms it is important to discourage and denounce the provision of conversion therapy in order to protect the human dignity and equality of all canadians and yet in fact in the break not only does the bill harden to actually not protect the dignity and equality of all canadians anybody who is struggling with uh one of these desires dysphorias or same-sex attractions that they don't want no longer has equality because they cannot actually seek out the help that they want nobody can advertise that kind of help nobody can provide any kind of service and you can see the theological nature of this bill this is a emphatic religious statement by the canadian government that the traditional uh orthodox christian and uh basically western uh actually one might even say global this is the first time this has happened in in human history uh in terms of human civilization to begin to criminalize people who hold to a normative understanding of human sexuality and identity um that's not based in some neo-marxist myth about fictive gender and fictive sexuality which perhaps we can discuss in a moment but this is nobody quite knows what happened one can only say that in canada this is the result of immense progressive political pressure both within the liberal party the ndp and the conservative party uh a large powerful caucus of radical progressives within the conservative party itself uh who have railroaded this through and in fact mps conservative mps have said to me that to have opposed bill c4 would have been personal political suicide [Music] okay gotta take a break from that conversation to tell you about our first sponsor for the day and that is annie's kit clubs they have a new subscription box and that is called the genius box so each month your curious kids will get a new box bursting with three hands-on activities to explore an exciting stem theme so for example they could be designing a hovercraft or examining fossils or being building robots and so much more they will discover a whole range of stem fields from geology to chemistry to aerodynamics through interactive projects projects and experiments if i had had this when i was a kid maybe i would have liked science class a little bit more but i didn't because i thought it was boring but this looks like the opposite of worrying so if you have a kid who like me only likes to read and you want to get them involved in science then maybe this is a good hands-on way to do this plus this is a really 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affirm the affirmation of someone's biological sex and as you just said that is theological philosophical in nature that says something about what these people believe about human beings and human nature that it's actually the mind and feelings um that trump physical reality that physical reality like biology must conform to someone's thoughts and feelings and never the other way around that's what this really is about it's a battle not just of the theological proportions but teleological proportions and really battling against reality in general battling against science battling against biology and what it's saying is that someone's even fleeting feelings because we know from science that a lot of kids who feel gender confusion they end up growing out of that by puberty just naturally um and so that's what this is a battle against it's a battle against reality it's a battle against all of the data and the science that we know and it's not an affirmation of human dignity but it does speak to what these people erroneously think human beings are and human nature is and we're seeing the devastating effects of that yeah well the um the reality is that uh what this bill is a war on as you've rightly pointed out is um creation itself and any form of normative structure uh that would transcend um personal innate feelings your chromosomes don't matter uh your birth um uh your your birth certificate uh doesn't matter um and uh history and society don't matter you will probably recall that it was karl marx who said that the key to the holy family by which he meant the christian god is the earthly family and he said to destroy the former we must get rid of the latter in theory and in practice and this is fundamentally uh what this bill um is is about it's a it is as you said a war on science but it's interesting the way that the way in which even the sciences have been co-opted into this because of uh their willingness to pump teenagers full of uh and even children younger children full of uh hormones uh and even pressure them into radical uh surgeries that mutilate the body and of course this bill denies um the stories and the reality of those who who are de-transitioning who have recognized they made a terrible mistake you you point out there that to the vast majority of young people grow out of these dysphoric uh conditions well over 80 percent um without any uh sort of intervention uh and yet this is uh this is a law that requires you can only preach teach counsel affirm a transition away far from uh creational norms from uh from basically common sense from from science you can only go in the opposite direction and uh it was neo-marxist americans actually like um judith butler um uh the lesbian jewish feminist philosopher who wrote a book called gender trouble in which she basically gave us uh she was one of several but she was highly influential who gave us this idea of fictive sex that man woman male female the the normative structure of marriage that these are merely social constructions that are created by a language regime and that's why we're seeing ali this war on language and pronouns with respect to all of this because she said that basically the only reason that we recognize a distinction between male female man woman uh um the the normative understanding of a heterosexual relationship between male and female is it because it serves the interests of power in particular uh cultural christian power of white males uh and uh it's a kind of hegemony and it's through a language regime that we use and if we alter the language regime we will alter social reality uh biology um uh uh our societal understanding of human relationships will be radically we will alter them uh the fiction of sex of male and female of marriage of man man and woman by changing the language regime and what this law does is basically now uh enforces through criminal sanctions a new theological political language regime that prevents you from even speaking clearly and talking with people about these issues on a repeat basis and prevents anybody who should wish to conform themselves to uh the traditional understanding and the christian norm um they are criminalized and the incredible danger of this bill especially for a christian like myself um and those who hold to a traditional understanding of of male and female and marriage is that it essentially is criminalizing the christian faith it's criminalizing the call to conversion because the bill uh requires that any sort of um advertising or promotion or even the attempt to lessen somebody's uh homosexual desires or gender dysphoric orientation or desire to cross-dress or whatever it may be is itself criminal and if you would permit me 30 seconds to read what the apostle paul says about this just as you know how serious this is for the christian yes in first corinthians 6 he says don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit god's kingdom do not be deceived no sexually immoral people idolaters adulterers or males who have sex with males no thieves greedy people drunkards verbally abusive people or swindlers will inherit god's kingdom and such some of you used to be like this and some of you used to be like this but you were washed you were sanctified you were justified in the name of the lord jesus christ and by the spirit of our god he goes on to say flee sexual immorality every other sin a person commits is outside the body but the person who is sexually immoral sins against his own body don't you know that your body is a temple of the holy spirit who is in you whom you have from god you are not your own you were born at a price so glorify god with your body so this is central to the christian message to christian teaching to the preaching of the gospel and it's being criminalized so under this law would it be illegal for a pastor to expose it that passage from the pulpit or are we only talking about paid services here that are banned well it's any practice or treatment or service and of course you can the problem is is the ambiguity you can drive a bus a freight train through the definition uh there is no real definition and you can drive a freight train through uh practice service or treatment um you are certainly forbidden in this law to in any way profit from the the provision or the advertising of or the promotion of conversion therapy it's actually unclear whether let's say a pastor was doing a sermon series on biblical sexuality for the congregation and was involved in praying for people after the service about those issues there's nothing in this law which would say that a pastor is protected in such an instance and certainly if somebody after a series of sermons like that would say can i come and see you about my um struggles with my sexuality and my sexual identity and the pastor agreed to that and counseled in terms of the biblical understanding that would be the provision of conversion therapy and would carry up to five years in prison wow uh so the problem is is the is the ambiguity uh here would just a sermon be covered the truth of the issue is we don't know could that be counted as talk therapy um there's nothing which specifically says that uh conversion therapy is only a paid service this is any uh any treatment um service or therapy uh so um that's that's a that's an unknown and um i think the big concern is uh that um it's it it's going to be the perception of the person who's exposed to the the counseling or the preaching or the teaching in any of these given environments that's probably going to determine whether they were undergoing conversion therapy or not so i don't know too much about the canadian system i know in the united states this would very likely be a would be considered a violation of the first amendment it would probably make its way to the supreme court and there's just no way that a law like this at least right now with the court that we have would last what about in canada is there any hope that the courts will say no this violates our constitution i i thought that canada had a guaranteed right to free speech but maybe i'm wrong on that well yes i mean that's uh that's an interesting question itself right now with section one in canada with everything that's been going on the last 18 months our charter seems to be in in indefinite suspension um when the government deems it justified but uh there are uh guarantees of fundamental freedoms in section two of the canadian charter and of course those include things like freedom of religion freedom of expression and so on um the there is also a provision for for uh bodily integrity um and uh and of the person freedom of the person and body integrity and certainly it could be argued that this this this criminalization of um getting help um don't forget this this prevents people anybody struggling with these issues from seeking out the kind of uh council therapy help that any other canadian would be allowed uh and permitted um so there's definite discrimination it's fundamentally discriminatory uh it is a denial now of religious freedom um it and with it really is a is a is a is a freedom of speech violation as well an expression because um the christian parents and christian pastors who want to counsel and help those struggling in this area their speech that kind of speech and also publication so anything that might be online anything written any recordings anything at all that might promote um uh or um advertise or actually be considered conducting um uh this uh conversion therapy uh falls under this law so i expect there will be some form of constitutional challenge ali uh but i am based on recent decisions by this canadian supreme court with regard to religious freedom for example the trinity western university case with their lifestyle document for their university which concerned sexual issues uh the the lifestyle document in terms of um uh christian sexual behavior um their that that case was lost in the supreme court and so i am not holding my breath let's say i'm not especially optimistic that a constitutional challenge in this regard with a law that got unanimously passed without any single person standing up to object in both the lower and the upper house i very much doubt our very progressive supreme court will uphold a constitutional challenge to this totalitarian law i mean in many respects what you saw with the with the house and the senate um is uh is reminiscent of an almost fascistic practice it's almost like we have a one party a one-party state uh and when it wants to railroad a piece of criminal legislation through that will discriminate against certain people everybody's on board and that's a pretty terrifying place to be [Music] alright another break to tell you guys about good ranchers there is still time to give the gift of good ranchers to someone that you love or to yourself if you give the gift of good ranchers you are giving them a 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help through that process no as this bill is written uh no you would not be able to counsel somebody uh through uh uh through a detransition process um that would be for forbidden as as i certainly read this law i'm not a lawyer but the lawyers that i have spoken to uh uh in the and i've got the bill in front of me and i've read it many times um would not permit you to counsel somebody to conform their uh body their own uh biology uh to to to the sex of their their birth and to uh to reduce or ch or transit or detransition no that would be against the law wow so as you said earlier this is only allowing the affirmation of transitioning away from someone's sex away from heterosexuality never the other direction even if this is a consenting adult or a teenager who says wow i made a mistake or i don't want to live this way anymore i want to conform to heterosexuality or my biology you're not even allowed to encourage someone who is voluntarily doing that which like you said this is not then an anti-conversion therapy bill this is truly anti-conversion i mean this is simply an affirmation of anti-reality and makes an effort actually to deny people even access to help to conform to reality and that brings me to a conversation that i want to have about parents and what this could mean for christian parents and i read a really interesting sad also in some ways encouraging article last night in the daily signal and i want to read some of that this is in the united states but it obviously has implications for what parents will be going through in canada and this is kind of what will sound like to some people certainly on the left a scandalous sounding or maybe a mean harsh sounding headline but it's a very interesting article what i've learned rescuing my daughter from her transgender fantasy in the daily signal this is written by a mom and i'll just kind of summarize it maybe read some quotes from it but basically this young daughter she says was uh you know she acted like a girl liked traditionally girly feminine things from the time that she was little she always liked wearing dresses she refused to even play with her brother's toys and then as she became a teenager as she got into middle school she started getting involved with different communities online and that encouraged or that included things like anime uh like the so-called furry cosplay community that this mother didn't know actually has aspects to it that are predatory that are pedophilic that can include encouragement to transition and encouragement towards sexual and gender fluidity and she came up she became a part of this community and this young girl decided that she was transgender that she was really born a boy she started uh wearing more masculine clothes and on top of that she became very isolated she became a recluse she became very mean and hostile to her family her mom decided okay this is too much she logged into all of her daughter's social media accounts and she found not just this confusing propaganda about gender and sexuality but actually found that she was talking to predatory people that she was looking at pornography as a young girl and that she was involved in a community that was really encouraging this kind of predation encouraging this kind of self-harm and her daughter changed for the worse into almost a totally different person a different person than the daughter that she had raised and so there's a lot more to this but she eventually the mom said you know what this is enough this is enough i'm not dealing with this anymore or this is we're not going this direction and so she took away her daughter's um all of her devices her social media accounts she forbade her from hanging out with a lot of the people that were influencing her in this direction and she basically detoxed her daughter from all of these different avenues that were encouraging her daughter to transition and take part in this awful gross uh behavior and uh ensured that she didn't have any access to the pornography that she was being sent all of this awful stuff and basically long story short her daughter changed for the better her daughter turned into the young girl that her mother had raised and she's much happier she's much healthier now she doesn't hang out with the same people she's doing much better in school she doesn't have that same attitude of hostility and just self-loathing that her mother had seen when her daughter had gone down these rabbit holes online but this mother had the freedom to do this here still she had the freedom to take this strong approach in her daughter's life and her daughter is better off for it my question is and somewhere like canada under this law is this even allowed this mom just being a good mom and stepping up for the well-being of her daughter is that even allowed under this law or could a parent potentially see jail time for doing what this mother did for the sake of her daughter in canada well ali the truth is we've already seen in british columbia um a case where a husband and father who would not affirm um the revised identity of his daughter um who was a minor at the time um uh forbidden from speaking about the issue publicly uh and uh by the courts um and parents losing um control in this situation in fact um in ontario you can already have your children seized um by the state uh if you do not affirm their path that they that they want to go on in this area of um uh human identity and and and sexuality this law only reinforces that so what's what what needs to be understood by people um outside of canada is that there are sleeper laws around that exist already in various provinces that were already going down this path of forbidding conversion therapy and um here in ontario um the the legal necessity to affirm the desires of minors and a failure to do that can uh as a parent can lend you can get you into trouble with the law um this bill will only further that direction and alongside of that uh we have um a radicalized education government education system here in canada uh it's governed provincially uh education so i'm in ontario um but it's the same right across the country you have a radical um lgbtq plus uh progressive agenda in schools so queer theory basically now dominates uh the classroom um uh whether it's with books whether it's with um the curriculum materials right through the curriculum uh in fact right into kindergarten this radical um agenda uh is being promoted and so the story that you've talked about of what's happening actually in our schools is that this conversion is already happening in the other way so it's going on socially and culturally it's going on through the curriculum it's going on through education and parents are there's a legislative environment which is increasingly forbidding parents from uh insisting on my house my rules my family my domain and this this bill bill c4 would basically criminalize any parent who takes their child uh under 18 years of age but don't forget adults can't have this service either but any child that's taken by a parent even outside of the country if somebody were to travel to the united states on vacation with their family with a child struggling in this area who has got unwanted uh desires or attraction and you were to take them to an american pastor or counselor that's a crime uh even outside of canada uh and to do so in canada would for a parent would be a crime so this is firming up this is hardening a legislative environment that already exists and an educational environment that already drills queer theory uh into the minds of children uh from kindergarten upwards wow so it doesn't even allow parents to be parents the reality is is that certainly transition in particular so-called transition um when a child is given hormone blockers when they're going through puberty their stories of course here in the united states of young girls being able to get double mastectomies and hormone blockers when they are teenagers without parental consent in some states in the united states and that causes not only physical harm but it just exacerbates the psychological distress that a lot of young people have the numbers of post-transition suicide or astronomical this idea that so-called transition to conform to how someone feels is um is the solution to people's distress it just doesn't hold up with the numbers and really what you see you see this manipulation tactic of saying well we have to ban conversion therapy or we have to simply affirm someone's feelings about their so-called gender identity because if you don't they'll commit suicide actually this mom in the article that i read she said that her daughter would start using this manipulation tactic to her that if you don't let me do what i want if you don't let me transition if you don't let me talk to this furry community whatever that is online and talk to these older people online then i'll just i'll just kill myself and this mom recognized this as a tactic and said that she just responded in love and compassion but was unrelenting in her commitment to reality um and thankfully here in most places you can still do that it sounds like in canada that's not possible but the state is not going to be there when your daughter who decided to get a double mastectomy at 15 years old is still contemplating suicide like the state is not going to be there holding your child's hand when they realize they've made that mistake or your the state is not going to be there to care for your child as they are continuing through the distress of life trying to reconcile reality with what's going on in their mind the state wasn't there when your child was born when they laid that baby on your chest the state wasn't there when you were waking up in the middle of the night to comfort your child because they're crying and they need their mom or dad the state doesn't care about your child the state doesn't care about your child's well-being does it care about your child's um your your child's health you as the parent do and this to me seems not only um it doesn't seem like only an lgbtq agenda in the sense that it is trying to you know encourage or uh you know encourage or preserve lgbtq identity or anything it seems also specifically anti-parent and anti-family and it just seems like it goes back to kind of what you were saying about the neo-marxist you know attack on what they see as any kind of hegemony or any kind of hierarchy and that includes the family this attempt to try to liberate all people from any kind of authority it seems like this also has to do with an attempt to what they would say is liberate children from the authority and the oppression of their family so they can just express themselves however they want to the problem is we know practically where that leads it leads to personal destruction it leads to societal destruction and not just i just don't even know i i can't even i don't even think we can quantify or really fathom what's going to be the long-term consequence of this i think my mind won't even let me go there but to you like how do you encourage people in canada christians who are bound by the authority of the word of god to push back on this i mean what what can they do this is such a travesty i can't even really wrap my mind around it honestly well it is a it's a it's a it's a wicked ideology and i think that is the the thing absolutely to keep in mind front and center that this is a religious assault it's an ideological assault on the family upon the church upon specifically upon the christian faith um and upon the society in the social order that [Music] has created the the the western world um there is no social revolution without sexual revolution and so the the ultimate agenda here is uh to totally revolutionize society the claim is utterly radical and of course there were those who in the 60s and 70s warned us about this many people did not see it uh but the claim is radical that there is no normative human identity at all and the goal here is a kind of um sexual utopia a sort of imaginary of course utopia means no place uh but it's an imaginary world in which um uh human autonomy human dignity is defined as the most radical kind of automate autonomy uh where there is no such thing as a normative family already in the legal structure in ontario here um there is a legislation that allows four totally unrelated individuals to enter into a contract before a baby is even born to be uh the parents of that child uh and so these these laws and bill c4 which uh reinforces it all uh have a revolutionary uh motivation um to to remake society and i i like the way you put it about um you know liberating people or freeing people from uh their their creational condition um from the from the norms of creation itself i mean if you free a lemur of his tail or a camel of his humps or a man of his testicles you destroy the very thing you are claiming to liberate and so this this liberation uh is no liberation at all it's a it's a new form of slavery and like all utopias it's totalitarian and it will brook no dissent and so my encouragement to christians and my encouragement already to pastors across the country is that we need to have a biblical sexuality sunday where churches across the country agree to preach and speak on the biblical understanding of sexuality the sunday after uh this bill on the anniversary of the the sunday following the passage of this bill um we need to defend the the family totalitarianism of course we in our minds we see you know jack boots and powerful authoritarian dictators and so forth but that's not the meaning of totalitarianism totalitarianism is the attempt of the state and you talked about the state there a lot because you're absolutely right where were they when your children were being born where were they when you were doing the night feeds where were they when you were instructing and raising your children in the home um but the the the the state here totalitarianism means the effort to treat the family the church and other societal institutions in a parts to whole fashion and we're seeing now the state uh treating family and church and other institutions as merely lesser parts of the state they get to dictate in totalitarian terms uh the kind of teaching the kind of help the kind of counsel that even the family or the church can give and offer to its own children even to its own adult members and so this is make no mistake a totalitarian bill and the only way to resist uh to stand against totalitarianism is to resist it to continue to speak uh can to continue to act faithfully in the christian family uh to continue to push back it's been very interesting ali that uh while canada is doing this other nations around the world have been having robust debate about uh transgenderism and the fact that there is absolutely zero science behind this um and are pushing back against um laws that would allow miners to transition even in the united kingdom that's been happening and so the fact that canada is plowing this course you can see that what's going on here is we've got a social experiment happening and the first requirement of any experiment is a controlled environment you can't do a legitimate experiment unless you have a controlled environment so it requires these totalizing controls and so this is a totalitarian bill it's a religious bill and it and it uh uh it militates at the most fundamental and foundational level against the christian foundations of the country when you think that the bible begins with a marriage uh the the relationship of god to his people israel is described as a marriage and israel is an adulterous people you move on to the new testament and you have the holy family uh and then the father and the son the very description of uh the godhead is in familial terms uh fatherhood sonship jesus's first miracle is performed at a wedding the relationship of christ to his church is described as a marriage and history ends according to scripture in the marriage supper of the lamb so marriage and normative human sexuality and identity he made the male and female is a cosmological key to the universe it's a cosmological key to meaning it's the beginning of distinguishing and god drawing distinctions within uh creation and within human relationships and what we're seeing now in canada and beyond is an attempt to join what god has separated and separate what god has joined and that is the ideological character um of this bill and other pieces of legislation in canada and this is a totalitarian attempt now to freeze all freedom of speech to put fear and terror into people for being parents for being pastors for being counsellors and to advance a social revolution via a radical sexual level revolution in the service of some radical uh neo-marxist thinkers who want to deny created reality because ultimately of a hatred of god i believe that's what's behind all of this [Music] all right a very fitting final sponsor and that is the dwell app it is a bible app it's inspired by the psalmist command that we must hide the word of god in our hearts dua has built a beautiful listening and reading experience for the scriptures they've got over a dozen new recordings of the bible they've hand-picked voices that will engage and inspire you they've got all your favorite versions my favorite esv they've got nkjv nlt nasb and others they've got a read-along experience so you can read big bold beautiful text while listening that really helps you retain the information but even if you can't read you can listen as you're doing other things throughout your day that is still ensuring that you are renewing your mind with the word of god so to get started with well go to dwell app dot io slash relatable to get 10 off a yearly subscription or 33 off to all for life 33 is 50 it's a great deal go to dwell app dot io relatable dwell app dot io relatable [Music] one thing that you that you mentioned just the significance of marriage male female marriage the only legitimate marriage that god says exist god who created marriage defines it as male and female something that we talk a lot about on this podcast is that we don't just read the bible to look at what god tells us not to do you hear that a lot from the progressive side of the aisle that says well you know jesus never mentioned abortion or jesus never mentioned transgenderism jesus never mentions marriage or homosexuality which is not exactly true obviously if you look at matthew 19 he does define marriage and gender very clearly but we say you don't just read the bible to look for all of the things that god tells us not to do you also look at the bible to say to look at what god says to do and what god is and so we're what god says is and is good and right and true and i came up with i love alliterations because it helps me remember things and what you were talking about the about scripture starting with the marriage and ending with a marriage our relationship in marriage being a reflection of christ and the church in ephesians 5. i like to say that the definition of marriage is rooted in creation it's reiterated throughout scripture it's repeated by jesus himself in matthew 19 and it is therefore reflective of the gospel itself as we read in ephesians 5. and so it's not just about what the bible specifically says about homosexuality although we do read that homosexuality is forbidden it's also about what god says marriage is and what that looks like and what it reflects and what it represents and if you missed that kind of as you said in the beginning when you were reading first corinthians 6 like you actually do miss the gospel you miss the gospel because if earthly marriage is a reflection of christ and the church and if we get the earthly part wrong we're also going to get the spiritual part wrong as well so this is a big deal when people tell me you know especially millennials or generation z younger than me they say you know what's the big deal with this why can't we just love people why can't we just be empathetic what's wrong i even get professing christians saying what's wrong with stating my pronouns or saying that someone who feels like they're a woman while they're a man that they can transition what's wrong with that that's just loving jesus told us to love they don't realize that this is essentially a gospel issue yes it's a scriptural authority issue but it's a gospel issue you don't understand the gospel if you can't define marriage and that is what is on the line even though we know that god is sovereign and that the gates of hell will not prevail against god's church so no law that canada passes or america passes is going to stop that we still realize that the stakes are really high here and that there is a lot on the line there's a lot of spiritual things that are on the line with a law like this absolutely i mean you make an incredibly important point that anybody who says well this is not a gospel issue doesn't understand the gospel doesn't understand the significance of the teaching of scripture or the meaning of the relationship of christ and his church this is at the heart of the meaning of the gospel as i said it even the the the revelation of the the character and nature of god himself is given to us in familial terms um and you rightly mentioned that jesus does in fact deal with these issues and of course in matthew 5 jesus makes crystal clear that he upholds the entirety of the law and these issues are dealt with uh in um the torah in the instruction uh that god gives throughout the older testament as well which is reiterated by jesus and the apostle paul so jesus upholds every punctuation mark of his law so he does deal with it and these are uh and i mean what you've pointed out essentially is that these are pre-political realities the state does not exist to redefine marriage redefine human identity redefine human sexuality and so on the state exists to recognize and protect those things which are created realities and which are ordained by god and uh it doesn't uh it is not there it's so far beyond and this is the the state overreaching all of this is so uh tyrannical it's it's uh it it beggars belief really it's hard to describe the extent to which this violates everything that the state is meant to be as a ministry of justice um and it is instead of protecting our pre-political rights marriage family and so on and so forth it's destroying them uh the state doesn't get to redefine reality uh in these terms and uh that's why you know we it's so critical that at this juncture we affirm that this is central to the gospel uh god the father and god the son and god the holy spirit and we we have the the centrality of the church as christ's bride and uh the most fundamental distinction in the bible is the male and female distinction and ali once that distinction has gone then there are no possible uh creational distinctions left you know forget good and evil right and wrong uh these things disappear with the most fundamental uh distinction the bible makes at the beginning of creation male and and female which reflects the distinction that exists in the being of god himself so this is absolutely a gospel issue as you pointed out it's central to the call of the gospel which is that we leave sin and rebellion against god behind and we conform ourselves to god's order to his creation norms to his law word and that's what it means to be a christian jesus says if you love me you'll obey my commandments uh and paul says such were some of you you did live like this but you've been washed you've been justified you've been sanctified you've been changed you've been converted and you now live a new life and that and that life as you've pointed out is for the blessing for the good for the prosperity uh for the flourishing of the individual the family and human society god uh instituted these things for our good and for our blessing and that's why only destruction as you pointed out is going to follow in the wake of these things because in the end you cannot violate god's laws and norms and there not be consequences you don't jump out of an aircraft thinking you can violate the the law of gravity without a parachute and uh you are going to come unstuck um there is always a consequence for the violation of god's laws and norms and there will be terrible social consequences from this and it will be families parents churches that are left picking up the pieces when this all falls apart which it most certainly will it will certainly be disproportionately a consequence that children have to bear as is true with all anti-creational order issues the redefinition of the family wombs and children becoming commodities for the redefinition of the family to try to mimic the the natural family children are always the unconsenting subjects of progressive experiments they have been literally laid on the altar in the form of child sacrifice throughout history now they are figuratively laid on the altar and are being used as sacrifices in different ways but the end result as you said in both ways is death and is destruction and for christians listening to this who amazingly there are you know professing christians who seem to be on the fence i like to say this is a genesis 1 issue you as you mentioned being made male and female is what it means to be made in god's image that is in the first chapter of the bible and i just don't believe someone when they say that they don't affirm genesis 1 but that they will continue to affirm john 14 6 that jesus is the way the truth and the life that is a far more scandalous statement in today's age that jesus is the only way to god then genesis 1 we are made male and female i just don't believe you when you say that you don't affirm genesis 1 but you do affirm john 14 6 it doesn't happen like that maybe it's a slow fade i do see this happen with people who profess to be christians they start to wiggle on the you know gender sexuality stuff in the name of so-called nuance and and empathy um but it always slides it always slides in the direction of apostasy of course repentance is absolutely possible by the grace of god but this is such a central issue and i think there was katie faust was a guest that i had on and she has an amazing organization but she pointed out to me something i hadn't thought about when it comes to the definition of of the family and the definition of right sexuality and god is that when you redefine the family and sexuality you are forbidding the children who are the products of that from obeying the first commandment with a promise honor your father and mother we create fatherlessness which is a category of helplessness and vulnerability in the bible we are told to help the fatherless not create fatherlessness and there wasn't even really a category for motherlessness which we see in the redefinition of the family now because that is so such an aberration historically um and so as you said just to reiterate like there's there's so there's so much there are so many biblical issues theological issues at stake here so many practical ones as well since parents are basically going to be forbidden from shepherding their kids and pastors forbidden from shepherding their their own flocks in the right way um is there any yeah go ahead yeah you mentioned john 14 and i was thinking when you said that um of also of john chapter one because of course the gospel of john opens with a deliberate echo of genesis chapter one in the beginning was the word the word was with god the word was god he was with god in the beginning all things were made through him without him nothing was made that was made in him was life and that life was the light of men so the word the christ is also the creator so any attempt to sever the bible uh you know genesis and john uh divide it up into pieces and say well i can i can't affirm genesis 1 but i can affirm the rest is of course um well it's nonsense ellie it's a complete myth you can't do it there is a complete continuity as a historical continuity uh there's a historical continuum between creation and redemption in scripture and so the attempt to to compromise and to synthesize uh these things um is uh uh well it's it's fundamentally impossible it's totally inadequate doesn't make any sense and as you point out the ones that ultimately suffer in all of this are children and they have to bear the comprom the the consequences of of our dereliction and an apostasy as a culture and so we have a uh a very important responsibility now at this juncture to make sure we um fight for the truth of the gospel uh and all that flows from it including the freedom of the family yes and amen now you mentioned that uh the sunday after this law goes into effect you were calling for um pastors in canada to preach about biblical marriage and sexuality correct that's right and is there is this an official um invitation that you've extended like is this something that american pastors can take part of because i think it would be wonderful if there were american pastors who decided to do the same thing on the same sunday that their canadian counterparts did it as well that's a good that's a good thought um so i'm not sure um exactly when this will broadcast but we i'm working with a group of um pastors and leaders right now uh in canada and we'll be it will be announcing uh the details of this uh shortly um and uh at which point um certainly we can be in touch and actually i think i will i will suggest that excellent idea that we invite our american brothers and sisters in the churches there to perhaps um do the same and uh uh take that take that sunday and make it a biblical sexuality sunday so that the church can make a firm and positive stand uh on this because the more we can work together because the challenges are the same right over the west uh the the more of an impact we're going to have yes and amen thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today where can people find you if they want to read your books your writings and things like that yeah thank you ali so they can find they can find me at ezra institute dot ca that's the website and uh there you can link to ezra press for all of our books and resources um we have a podcast uh which you can the podcast for cultural reformation which you can find uh wherever you get your podcast from um and of course you can follow us on facebook and twitter and you can follow me on twitter at dr joe boot well thank you so much dr boot i appreciate you taking the time to talk to us thank you very much ali god bless you [Music] you

Channel: Allie Beth Stuckey

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Id: wg_RNPFjmV8

Length: 64min 30sec (3870 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 14 2021