Conversations with Don Menza

[Music] [Music] you [Music] welcome to the NYU Steinhardt jazz interview series and tonight I have a very special guest truly a jazz saxophone legend mr. Don Menza Don how do you like being called a legend really strange my wife has other words for me well you know what I heard you were in town through Ralph Obama told me those every day and I wanted to just hear your stories because I have this series that you may not be familiar with that it's from a musician's perspective really and a lot of my students and the people listening want to know the the words from the horse's mouth let's put it that way so I you know it's it's free and open conversation well that's fine yeah you know I'm not I'm not you know I can be very informative I'm not exactly sure where you want to start what you want to know what should I say well I'll I'll direct you okay you got it so I was reading some of your information online and I'll just hit you with some certain points okay then you tell me if there's a story in there that I'd like to convey a story and all of it so I understand you heard Charlie Parker with strings oh I'll never forget that how old real well it had to be 50 to 50 yeah 52 it was and he came to Buffalo with strings we're at the town casino in Buffalo fifty-two I was let's see 14 Wow no I was 52 yeah was 14 four more years over you're already into jazz into me well I was into jazz I really you know I listened to some dumb tape recordings that somebody made in me in those years I really couldn't play but I was trying but you know who Charlie Parker was oh I had the records you know the first string album that came out and well it was the only one at the time and I couldn't play just friends but I could play everything happens to me and summertime solo from the record it was it was wonderful so this was a formal concert or was it in a jazz late there was a big supper club and a showroom in Buffalo New York called the town casino and he came to town with Hank Jones I believe it was Tommy Potter and Roy Haynes that was the quartet and I remember the it was raining that night in Buffalo tonight and I begged my mom and dad to take me there and we went there and the sat there and it was raining and pouring and the show was late 20 minutes later if our and I said you know and I knew a little bit about birds things and I said oh maybe you know Joe you know it was it was the opening night and suddenly ladies and gentlemen Charlie Parker the bird you know it opened and gene the strings and there was that beautiful intro he played on and just friends and I I suddenly got embarrassed I could see him standing there the bottom of his pants were wet from the and his mud all over his shows shoes and somebody he had sense enough and with the spotlight just zoom in on the saxophone in him it was beautiful and Wow it was a bird just sound I'll never forget that sound you know records you can hear them live it was a completely different thing hmm and I went back and listened to the record that's not how he sounded Wow yeah and it was with strings yeah oh it was with strings and then I said the next night I was gonna go back and see him because they had the first shotting started at 8:00 or 8:30 and I lived in those days in Buffalo I was my mom had remarried my dad had died when I was a young young boy six years old and it was like a long time and I was living in an attic over the apartment that they had and it was a big family house part of the family they've done the first floor my mom and dad let's just in a second I had lived in the Attic and they had remodeled that or made it livable mm-hmm I had to share it sometimes with pigeons and it was okay it's all right it's to practice up there and not bug anybody but I said I'm good I'm gonna go see him tonight and I knew a couple of my friends from high school that we're gonna go so I opened the back window climbed down to the garage on the garage roof and it wasn't so such a big leap down and I knew what the ladder was once I got down I put the ladder back there when I came home I could get back up there that went back there second night he was there and we snuck in the back door would with some of the string players and who knew the one bass player that went with me and we heard the the concert from backstage which was equally as astounding this first night did you have enough nerve at 14 to try to speak with Parker no no no no no I saw him and I was just like you know it was like yeah I know I was thinking about what to say to him you know hello or I'd love your plane and everything bird didn't look very comfortable he had a towel over his head and we all know what what was going on in his life but it wasn't it wasn't easy I didn't know what I would say to him but then I heard from one of my friends as we were leaving because I had to sneak back in the house that after the concert on the first night he went to this club on Main Street baffles it was called da fo I'm right on Main Street and it was a seven night a week Jazz Club they always had all the locals in their plane and there were a lot of cats in Buffalo that could really play in that in those days and he had gone in the night before so I said well what are we gonna do this you know no wait it's too late then so I we went over to my friends house and I waited there and then I said okay it should be a time now so we ran over to Bioforce snuck in the back door we weren't old enough to be in there and there was the in the back door you could get in there was a coat rack there and there you could see the back of the bandstand with all the slats in it and you could see through and sure and that bird came in the got his horn he decide to play melancholy Danny Wow and it was Oh God no microphone but it just filled the room the song was I still get chills it was wonderful and then some lady came down the side of dancing in front of he packed up his horn and walked out with her everybody everybody was just worrying at her why I said the only time you saw a bird no I saw him that playing hands music all he came up with Mill Jackson Roy Haynes again laughter I forgot who was a monk and this was maybe late 54 or the middle of 54 because that other one was 52 or 53 this was 54 and I am Ken eternam and and it was not skinny eath never see he proceeded yeah and they had abandoned while and it was bird and then after the I mean there was two bands actually and the second band was Zoot and James Moody and I forget who the drummer player was and I don't remember their rhythm section I want to talk about all those guys but can you describe at that time and what people thought of jazz and they thought of bird and I say this like commercially because if you were a fan of Louis Jourdan for instance there was it was Sony's big influence right but you know there's there's a whole bunch of videos there like movie shorts of him that was he was commercially Paul yeah it was like it was bad but Charlie Parker there's really only one live recording of him that was that was shot as he got an award on it yeah yeah I don't know there so the thing is thank you Jane he wanted for racing the other one you know which one with Coleman Hawkins oh no that's back in the Death Zone that the sound's back no so it's all over dough all right now yeah but that was Norman Granz yeah yeah I will talk about that later but but the point is it's like how can you know we Revere the the bebop guys so much Charlie Parker of genius but at the time there was nobody really documenting him on video or playing him in movie theaters as a short it's so sad I mean the young players should should all have had had that chance to experience that sound and that that energy and that creativity that that he had that all those people from that time had that the I missed the Billy Eckstine band I was too young for that but that band I mean all of those guys they all had there was there were no microphones we learned how to play without one and drums bashing and of course there were no electric guitars by then that came a little later and everything was just acoustic and there was a beautiful homogenized sound that the band made now it's all this electric thing and let's have a soundcheck I refuse to do sound checks yes yes badly in Europe I say you guys want a rhythm soundcheck oh I don't do it because what I get there to play the gig I know it's going to be different mm-hmm so I walk into a club and you know last night I went in and played it smalls it was the same thing everybody said man where do you get all that sound from I said I don't know I've always had that self and the first time I heard Coleman Hawkins my jaw dropped down to here and war was sad same place called the claw dance musical in jazz at the Philharmonic that night the saxophone players were Coleman Hawkins michigan-flint Phillips Illinois Jacquet and Charlie Ventura and I said what I need I was that's just what I expected that because that's what they said they were in the sound these people made it was beautiful how is Lester sound compared to Coleman's offense totally different but then it was here beautiful man oh yeah yeah I mean he wasn't like this was impossible are still in Buffalo yeah so does how can you describe Buffalo as being this this major Center for chasm well I don't know if it's a it's not exactly the the jazz mecca of the east but right but it's not a saxophone yeah the saxophone players that came out of upstate New York they were we were on the crossroads it was across the crosshair if they were coming east if they were going north and if they were going west or they were coming south from Chicago you go to Buffalo or Buffalo Chicago and then down to Kansas City New Orleans they lose whatever I mean it was I mean the people that I heard in Buffalo you can't believe I guess 100 years earlier and I got the Erie Canal yeah yeah well because that was the crossroads but it was it was was right in the center of if they were going to Canada that's where they went yeah it was it was just it was incredible I mean and the people that came out of there and most of them you don't even know I mean now the people that I know they were a black tenor player the spider Martin Johnnie spider Martin oh he played a beautiful man he had the gene Hammond so he couldn't didn't have the time like jug but he played that way but in that city that's where I heard that my heard Sonny Stitt live I heard stayin get slide I heard I heard Dexter I heard ward out I heard them all you ever sit in with Sonny step you don't sit in with Sonny Stitt you know that story now beautiful story of red Holloway Jean Hammonds had just died and Sonny was coming to California and he was supposed to work at Chin's I think it was called or something the Chinese kind of name down off the 405 freeway towards the airport and read Holloway is from Chicago and he has sort of that sound and then he was a great player man you know and so Sonny hired him and so and I was there I saw this and sudden he goes to the Sun he was only Sonny Stitt you know he said it's late and gentlemen we'd like to feature red Holloway now on a ballot of this choice he's gonna play out or no and he came out and he played autumn in New York and all of a sudden at the end of it yeah everybody yeah yeah I could see Sonny walking out on stage with his alto and he played a car sign of autumn in New York I wish somebody would have had that it was the most it was breathtaking I mean it was it was everything that he knew about the saxophone and bebop and Sonny Stitt note so I I go backstage because I knew Sonny and red and I and worked together many times so we go backstage and there's red Holloway looking at Sonny and he was here is Sonny I thought we were good friends he said you made me look bad out there he said no you sounded wonderful he said I thought we were good friends man and sudden he says off the band sing on the bandstand I don't have any friends Wow and there was one of those things you could play with a lot of cats but don't get on the bandstand with Sonny he would tell you but do you want to play well let's play um I got rid of good I got rid of Mandy oh and he played like he was playing a b-flat file he was he was really a sexual virtuoso but the interesting story about him is that and it's in print he said you know that thing would dizzy for musicians only and Stan Getz and he said I used to practice every day because what Stan Getz when the gate opened you never know what was gonna happen hmm in him he says he was the only one that he was afraid of Wow yeah I'll talk about Stan Getz now me yes I saw I was read that you saw concert a Newport with with jets and Coltrane together but it was a Newport oh yeah yeah yeah it was no that one oh yeah this was 1961 that was an on maynard's van and we went to Newport and opening act was Maynard and then was John Coltrane with Roy Haynes and if we could who's playing bass Steve swallow no maybe we will be where and I don't know who's playing piano with him either I forgot I forgotten it but and then the second act was staying gets with the kid who died what instrument the bass player he was scowler far far oh yeah Calipari Haynes and John bunch well train was planed of the first set and I'm standing there and I'd love them both man and I was the train was really well he was just it was still in his lyrical bag oh man listen to him and then I thought it was really made my poked him and it was Stan Getz listening to the train he says yeah very interesting man you know and I said oh saying sorry and then Stan went out and I I remember staying playing aggressively like especially the G Rainiers but he the first tune he played was arrogant I mean better on he started chewing on the saxophone and Willie maidens love Stan Getz I said Willie dig stand and it was trained he said we'd all like to play like that or that good so how did they end up playing together on that set they didn't they played together on the Cologne and the Cologne concert where miles got lost and Dorman grains went to stand I said look I only got a quartet I got out of my contract go on play with stick stances sure so we won't play with the train and though that do you know that bootleg record huh it's gorgeous there's of any of that to it yeah yeah I don't know if there's a video of it or not I don't think so is there yeah I don't have that I'm nodding yes I bet has all he has all the good stuff well Jay no guess well yeah you know I took a lesson with him I was maybe this is a year after I heard bird maybe 15 or 16 years old and I went to hear him play in Buffalo and I knew staying gets solos and I was trying to play like that of course the first hand of player I heard was Coleman Hawkins and then everybody said oh you got to hear that solo and early autumn know beautiful sound I said oh man and so I started imitating it I didn't know how to do it until the first time I saw him and what he did here now he changed all this because up till then I was copying Coleman Hawkins was he playing double lip no no as he started out as a bassoon he said but you play I know that no he didn't play mm sure mm-hmm no but but he didn't bite it was always like you could seem dope ball this puff you know which is totally the opposite of what they teach kids will don't move you know like I call those guys the Johnny high straps you know he pulls all right no no no never see broom or play go yeah it's already had the big suit I'll cold yeah that beautiful sound jug Sonny's dead they all played that way even bird puffed moved did Lester Lester didn't oh yeah did he oh yeah oh yeah but the windup was I go take a lesson I take out my horn and there were two or three friends with me said let me hear you play I put the horn together and I could see a smile on his face because I had a balanced action like he did not gold-plated like he did and the white Braille heart and I started playing the first 16 or 32 bars of the solo from Indian summer that he went and he started laughing and I got embarrassed and my friends were whole and you know he's laughing it he said no I'm not laughing at you and in those days I had all this wavy red hair you know punch me cheeks he said it's just the first time I ever saw somebody look like Zoot and sounded like me but he you know what he was you've heard all the stories about what a nice bunch of guys he was and everything he was always so kind to me always every time I saw him well what did what would the Stan Getz teach you in a lesson first thing he told me after he's heard me play he says do you know who he'll call this and I said yeah he says you buy every record you can from El Cajon and memorize them he said because he's really he's the one he'd love down but they never got love when was the one that made the yeah they're the big mark in the world you know and I'll just sort of like stumbled around New York with Zoot and drink drank their way through all the jazz club just said Stan and Zoot get along no although they you know in the get together hey how you doing man you know they were respectful of each other and there is an interview that I read once where Stan said you know that Stan Getz he said yeah he's going to play the saxophone real good those has read music those guys yeah good day yeah oh yeah Stan could read like flagrant and he a total Rico yeah and photographic you know the story about him and and I wasn't the one I didn't witness this but Jimmy Campbell the drummer he told me he was there they were up in Riverdale here at the Benny Goodman's place rehearsing and they were doing clarinet marmalade or one of those with the harmony part with the tenor in the trumpet Joe Wilder and saying in this and could stay I mean Benny was merciless he'd say you know you know I did I got the feeling I want to play this up escape or down a step it would be better for me you know and and they all the guys who know Jimi said sure yeah that's ok you know there's no problem so Stan says yeah no problem he took the part threw it on the floor and played it perfect and Benny fired him Wow or or zut was then zoom was out of the pan and also from Jimmy Campbell Jimmy Campbell who was the drummer was woody for all those years are Jimmy yeah not Jimmy shame on me anyway trying to think I'll think about it but he played with zoom there a lot of them was a mouse he Alexander no no no anyway anyway they were in there and they were rehearsing and it was wintertime and Zoot said there Benny man it's it's getting cold I can't even warm up to her you know yeah so another room comes back in here to jack it now did you did you ever work with him yeah I didn't I got fired too I'm part of the great number of players who got fired we were in Phoenix there was a Louis bouncing band with with Benny Goodman playing all his music and everything and we were in Phoenix and he could never get my name straight he always called me Dennis get it right Dennis man I said Benny it's done okay and we've had played before that like two or three concerts somewhere else had noticed me where but then we were in Phoenix and then the next day we had off and we were going to San Francisco and that on the off day I had a call from Henry Mancini who I was working with quite a bit so I went back to LA worked a gig and then was gonna take the plane out that night up to Frisco and the next stage of the concert and I get a call well anyway we're in Phoenix and he said now we're going to feature our tenor player Dennis Spencer and a song of your choice and I looked at the same reason would you guys mind a place so I played a play I think I played body and soul or dudududu D mm-hmm nobody in solid plate and then the people I mean I either people stood up I I mean that I said I got embarrassed and I said why I just played dumb course you know I got called the next day from Louie you got fired Wow so Benny didn't never like to get ups no no oh and actually my favorite clarinet player was naughty show and I loved hiding it and did you know Artie yes and you know it must have some good Artie's cha story no I don't have any stories none from Artie I didn't know him there well I just knew him but hey buddy rich stories man you know that was that's another thing yeah and Zoot the dude was always sweetheart man and so was hell you know he was every time I saw them first night when I got to New York in mm m61 and I had I had auditioned for me in arts band when Joe Farrell left he was looking for a tenor player but I had already played on the bed mm-hm and when when Joe had his appendix out he said well you know I'm gonna try to look around so I get there and I'm down at Birdland at one o'clock in the afternoon and a whole bunch of other players black and white and what and this guy comes over nice Danya you mind if I use your horn and it was dark down there and I said yes but he's no no leave them up he's like my mommy was Hank Mobley Wow and I didn't know I said sure man here you know he got sat there and played a couple of the tunes and may not knew how I played I mean it was and then there was another cat in time there were a bunch of good Center players there some had bad habits and some were okay and there was a white young tenor player there mm-hmm oh he was from Little Rock mmm really a country boy but he played like young Sonny Rollins just like that in in the section it wasn't a lot of fun for the other guys butts slide like then he used to work with him all the time and so did a couple of the other guys in the band that was the end of it he got the gig I didn't then about six months later I was in upstate New York and I get this call I said they said hello done and I was going to school at Fredonia which I had no business being at and what were you studying music and I was trying to they were teaching the music you know they were talking to old other although you like opera now maybe well the only that's the only thing I had in common with some of the professor's there you know eased to talk about you see barreling and they said yeah but he sings out of tune I said Ben go listen to the Requiem it's gorgeous man listen to Torah dog listen to that beautiful boy anyway we had a lot of fights about that but suddenly I get this call and she said hi Don this is Flo listen Flo Flo Ferguson mayonnaise old lady they said man I made a big mistake he wants to hire you and I thought about it I said when he said we need you tomorrow night no it was Wednesday night we need you Friday night at Birdland I said I'll be there and Monday we're starting to spring finals I left I never said goodbye to anybody packed up everything I could fit in my Volkswagen drove to New York I called my girlfriend now wife I said I'm going to New York I'll see you on Long Island that was it but was gone she was from Long Island didn't Smith down rosemarie what'd you do with your Volkswagen when you went on the road oh we rekted one night on our one of our trips back and forth to New York now bow to spine out in the rain and it bent the the bet of the front axle and everything and I said the hell with it Wow how was Maynard's band received they still line up at the bar at Birdland all the trumpet players waiting to fall flat on his face he never did those were the sharpshooting years I remember dizzy Myles Roy Eldridge Charlie shavers I remember all those cats lined up there wait and see and he he just didn't play high notes or scream he played the melodies up there yeah and when he played lead over the whole band the band would levitate the band would come up with my favorite charts in the book were Jackie buyer hmm and was Jackie in the band at there huh yeah and when I first joined the band it was Frankie Dunlop Jackie bard and let him remember the bass player John somebody or other who was in the sax section well the first time it was a Jimmy Ford me Willie and I don't remember there was another alto because that was the first time it was five saxophone players and then he cut the band down the floor but eventually it was Lanny Morgan Willie me and Frank Hitler mm-hmm yeah nobody ever talks about Willie mate and what was he like really was a wonderful musician man a great writer you know everybody said yeah but you know he loved Alcoa and Zoot and he played that way but I mean no copying you never heard a lick out of him from from Stan or a Lizotte and it was all original and he had this beautiful sense of timing and a lyrical thing nobody liked him here West Coast what what what where did he end up after Maynard he stayed a little while here and then he was originally from California moved back to California and then he was at down in Orange County I saw him when I got to California 68 I saw him maybe three or four times he came to hear me play he came in to play with a couple of big bands Willie Willie was a sweetheart he was an alcoholic but I read somewhere out of may I'm thinking he was afraid of dogs oh yeah or anybody any flying bug we played a we played opposite Count Basie's band at one of the pent houses here in New York in the summertime and we were up there and it was filled with all the television stars and film people and it was just it was dude I was like I would my mind was blown it was New York happened too soon for me I wasn't ready for New York but that's okay and and we're up there and we're playing all of us said Willie I can see what he said let me do all this and he was on the other end who's closer to Maine I need do it all this and it was one of the big Beatles flying huh all of a sudden he had piece of paper running around the room chasing this this beetle or it was it was hilarious there was a day god it was the last tune you know and then I'm coming off in my summer I'll sit looked at me he said hey red what's wrong with that boy oh it was beautiful then wow those are great ears man I gotta say I remember going to a couple late-night sessions and one of them Don Lamphere was there another one broom bore was there Wow and I remember brew location you know I know how to play and I said I didn't say anything but what are you telling me that for you know and I didn't even play I just went up to you know the cats over there Wow you ever mean gene quill oh yes yeah nobody talks about him either what well my whole thing was I didn't know gene I knew Phil a lot better and I really liked Phil I thought it was mm-hm the better musician of both hey I can't say that honestly I didn't really know Phil then you know it's they wanted me to go frame that Frank react but who's the other drummer I'm a a trombone player I can remember in me he weren't Rosalina no not regular but here here in New York you know but I remember him calling me they wanted me to go on that and that a Russian trip with the Benny Goodman band and that is before I had anything to do with businesses this is again 61 62 and I said no I think I don't know I think I'm just gonna stay with hmm with Maynard's they do it I'm doing that would have been an interesting story to tell them oh boy well Phil talked about it many times you know he became the clarinet player yeah and that to her let's go back a little bit let's talk about your time with Stan Kenton well Maynard it wasn't exactly a profitable experience financially it was a very good experience for me musically I have to say cuz a boy I learned a lot and I still say Jackie Bart is my favorite arranger he's just a secret of all the kids I mean Wow anyway Jackie and I became good friends and he showed me a few things that I never forgotten I still when I'm writing that's what I do he said let it fly you hear something write it down go ahead write down you know don't dwell on it nobody everybody's gonna hear the bass note the melody and they're gonna go from here to there they don't hear what's in between well concept there onion you learn to write fast which I still can't do but I have one question about Kenton and no no no wait I left getting this band you wait you ask me we left Kenz but I mean I left can stain Manor it's big yeah and Maynard was pissed oh he was mad at me but I gave my notice I said how much notice did you give him two weeks you know he said well I wanted you to come here with me and we're good we're doing we got another album to do I said Maynard I can't afford it I'm always borrowing money for my folks um I wish my then-girlfriend folks to stay in the band yeah well you told that white mother Mandy was mad at its then he didn't I don't know why you didn't like stand made standard hey better well if they're almost twice as much file so I joined the band and I get to they flew from New York to Seattle at the World's Fair this is 62 and I get there and the who's playing the tenor chair is Charlie Charlie Mariano yeah I said Charlie why didn't you playing lead me said gay Balthazar was playing lead yeah are they crazy Charlie Mariano and I said why are you leaving the band he says he'll see so that night we're at the World's Fair and the whole band stands up the stand comes out and starts to conduct and the band starts to sing tenderly and I I was shocked and I turn to look in the wings and there's Charlie and he's seen looking at me pointed his finger see I gave my I gave my notice that what was that a commercial venture Everett the band sings the band sang Laura September song tenderly and I forget they had four four mailed the Vienna Boys Choir they sing every night I hated it Wow and I gave my notice that night worst night in the band I mean I had just left bebop City yeah Berlin you know wow you know and I told Stan then he said look I can't afford to fly you back we're gonna do an album in LA and then we're gonna we're gonna bust it across we're playing a lot of really good gigs you'll have some fun he's I just I just beg you don't don't make it uncomfortable I said no I promise I'm gonna do what I got hired for but when we get to New York I'm gone New York City Limits my wife was waiting in the car jumped off the bus sit in the box wagon no no no no we had a newer car than so I know this is a little bit before you but there was a composer Bob Brett injure oh yeah no no the city supervisor glass helmet I mean you go back and listen to it no and it's really spooky yeah but you know everybody tries new things I have nothing against that if it works that's great if it doesn't and that didn't work and Stan wasted a lot of time on that but it seems crazy to move from city of glass which was pretty pretty modern yeah into everybody singing tenderly in onstage yeah oh yeah he's and he told me get it down I just you know I gotta keep the band working and we played dances we played college dances and community dances they're all straight across the country oh I hated it and no swing at all it never swung I mean those days of the the bill home and Jerry Mulligan charts on the band they were gone and standing openly admitted it he said I don't know what to do and that's happening what do I do I'm just standing in a friend listening to the band swing mm-hmm I said wonderful but we became good friends we'd we'd sit in the front of the bus and drink scotch together you know and I he hated opera and he wasn't a particularly fond of classical music meanwhile Dido no dude where'd that come from right that's Ravel yeah yeah so what let's talk about Buddy Rich now yeah well I get my my flag off the Buddy Rich flag I would go to battle for him uh-huh really I have to say he's the only real band leader I ever worked for if something if the band had a problem he was there what's the problem you know not one amongst themselves but somebody had the beef about the band I'm the bandleader these are my guys talk to me Wow yeah and you hear a lot of bad things up a lot of bad rap of our buddy but man anytime the band got in trouble if there was a beef at the hotel or something he'd walk in straighten it out oh yeah one night we were playing at the riverboat at the base of the Empire State Building it used to be the Jazz Club there and remember that no hmm sorry that's why I'm here right anyway my my in-laws came to see me from Long Island and they were all at the bar waiting for the next show they were gonna so I walked up me and Pat LaBarbara and somebody else because they had been out to the island and they had met them we were standing at the bar and all of a sudden the maitre d or comes over he said sorry you boys you're in the band right and I said yeah he said you're not allowed here I said really I told my father-in-law don't move it went on I say buddy they're telling me I can't sit at the stand at the bar with my with my father my mother my mother was in there but with my relatives he said really but he had his to buff he had a his slippers on in the bathrobe walked up the big stair case like like Clark Gable had walked over to he said you want us to play another set or evermore here he said you leave my guys alone he said guys the drinks are on me buddy Wow everybody else I got a say then I won't mention any names there was a problem you'd see them doctor heads in hide he straighten it out yourself my buddy was he had been through that you know he'd been through they think they're the big band era he had been through vaudeville and all that he knew it was about you ever talk about vaudeville and yeah yeah I remember one night who was an old enjoy yeah Alan Jones came in one night and he sat in with the band and there was I can't really don't ask me who this black tap dancer was there he asked him to come up and they danced together and Buddy could dance Wow there's a video him and the Steve Allen show that dates Wow he could really do the whole lid sing good dance did anybody ever call him traps that drum wonder oh yeah we well when whenever he was one time we were on the bus going back to California and he was driving in his Rolls Royces Silver Cloud and it was always breaking down and there was by the side of the road and I said keep going don't stop so they stopped that we pulled off and I could see him waving his arm and we had a piece of cardboard and go mark early by traps he was praised Maya and say you also worked with Elvin Jones you know what that's I don't know where that came from Elvin came to Los Angeles and this was after train and after a couple of the tenor players in New York and didn't work and Jimmy garrison wasn't there and suddenly he knew a bass player in LA called his bass player and the bass player called me and it was and there were two tenor players me and this other tenor player we didn't we didn't have anything in common we didn't and we worked a week at Shelly man's but it was me I'd really never considered myself part of the band I was there helping he never forgot that every time I saw him there was a big hug you know on Wow yeah we were that I was at the name show and in the Anaheim Oh with my son and I said come on there's Elvin Jones he's really where you guys went over and I said he was signing autographs and I told the guy says my hands and I said just write it out to Don Menza and son he said he jumped over the table man it was like the only people were like what's going on you know Wow now he was he never forgot that and I I used to for years I would get for a little Christmas card or a greeting from the big cake or cake or cake or at the asommus yeah well in our remaining time let me just hit you with a bunch of names and and see it's already like three hours good I'll hit you with some names you tell me what your thoughts are pepper well that there our friendship started on the Buddy Rich band he didn't have a saxophone uh what I called him he said I'm just playing tenor now man I said well I got an alto if you want to do it please come you were gonna do it we're gonna do a record a new record look at this we got that happening and the buddy would really love to have you on the band and we did and we became friends mm-hmm he wasn't well he was still sick it said did you know Paul Desmond only here in New York went when I used to hang out up at up in Riverdale that had Maine arts place I always thought he was a very underrated player extremely lyrical he had great time beautiful sound and command of the instrument very musical I know like oh I hate him it was part of the Dave Brubeck I said wait what do you know about Dave Rubik and the music he wrote is there's some gorgeous songs now and then I'll remember you remember the Duke that's so gorgeous man and it is Duke Ellington yeah think about it did you know any of the free players like Eric Dolphy or warnet no I I saw Ornette brief Eric briefly from time to time if I would go to Charlie parties and war that well was that at 40 40 40 50 44 somewhere 46 somewhere around there I used to hang out their lockers charlie he really treated me well and anytime I needed something in New York he just gave it to me you know a few record dates I did here he would always let me use a bass clarinet and this and Charlie was wonderful but I used to see Eric there Ornette I never really saw in it and I know his music one of my favorite records is and I told Sonny this I said one of my favorite records are warned that was Ornette intent and tenor with no wood we played that inside he says you mean where he sounded like me and he did well let's talk about Sonny for a minute uh that you're getting deep listen indeed Sonny Rollins yeah I know you're getting out here inside me Sonny I quit playing when I got out of the Army in 50 well I saw Sonny the first time in 54 I just graduated from high school there was a present and three or four of us from my parents came to the organ I walked by Birdland and tonight Sonny Rollins oh I think it was the the Basie band was playing there Sonny Rollins and I think sarah was seeing us at the right I went down and sat in the bullpen there you know and wife Sonny around this play man I I was so affected I couldn't even talk for two or three weeks man it was oh what an experience to hear that and watch him play and it was is he really playing or is there a record somewhere because in those days he was stoic he didn't move at all like just like this you didn't occasionally you'd see him flinch a little bit but man those years that was with Frankie and I'm not Frankie down laughing Henry Grimes and it was just incredible the Frankie's from Buffalo mm-hmm so I got a chance to like track down Frankie I said I'd like to just say hello as I said Sonny thank you yeah and then I got out of the Army in 58 January 58 and I quit playing I just was tired very disappointed laying in the army oh yeah I played in the Army with cedar wall oh I'll say man cedar Dallas legal right Wow make some fries and Joe Harris I mean the Eddie Harris I mean we were all in the area at the same time there was a big band that he wasn't in the band no but it was it was quite a band I have recording to that man and I record I mean of a tape a for two or three four Tunes that me and cedar did that the hashish Arun funkin in Frankfurt but here comes uh getting out of the army and I get back to New York and I have around New York for a little while and I was I was freaking out with what I was hearing and I don't want to play be part of this and it was like it was music had become a political race racial protest and I understand that perfectly I'm rightfully so but I couldn't be part of it I didn't I didn't know how to react to that I could play and I sold my horns it was New Year's Eve going into nineteen fifty-nine and I went to Rochester to hear Sonny Rollins and in the middle of the night I said now I remember why I wanted to play the tenor I got back to Buffalo at 3 in the morning and called my teacher and I said I said I needed a saxophone he said yeah come by Monday I said no tonight I'll change my mind he met me at the shop and I tried out a bunch of axe bones tried out a couple of new mouthpieces and I'll take this and then I looked at him I said John I don't have any money he said I know I'll get it from you go go I'm tired Wow yeah Wow and that was but and then that happened again in 2005 equivalent and I was in the we were selling the house that we had in Vegas I didn't want to buy a job ended that I had there at the University and at the the Jazz Club and I just I was washing down the the garage all the sand and the scorpions out and suddenly my wife was screaming at me hey don't you hear me I said well I can't gonna hear you with the water it turned the hose off and she said I said who is it yeah what's the phone for you I said who is she said Sonny Rollins and I said yeah and I'm Charlie Parker they get on the phone and I hear yeah man I heard that oh man and I sat down I sat down in the water you know and he was really man he said man you can't do it it's a gift don't do it man don't don't neglect it man it's it's important that you it's a gift you have or that we have keep playing man and I didn't change my mind and then there was a special mini Jazz Festival that ken Poston put sound on iron down there and I was just supposed to be on a panel discussion thing that I get a call from a producer and making a record he said do you have any things you haven't recorded I said sure and that was it I got my horn out rehearse the band two days and we would enter made a record Wow and that was because of Sonny Wow and we keep in touch I mean it's I just talked to him a couple weeks before I came here I thought I'd have time this time to go up and see him but that's not gonna happen well let me maybe close by you know I clearly you're passionate about music in your life and music what what what can you share with the listeners and about what music does for you and what it's done for you oh that's that's interesting because I never looked at it that way what it does for me it was what I wanted to do to the music one music it was the other way around these ideas in a head about what I wanted but I grew up in a Sicilian house my grandfather was always singing badly my mother couldn't whistle - I always had this this show fourth or minor minor third of all vibrato like you know please my you know and she was the one she tried to talk me out of it she said on you she was worried about the fact that I wanted to be a jazz musician you know you're gonna wind up in jazz clubs with with wood knock I would I would dope and alcohol and loose women and I said really when do I start and it's but everyday I said thank you ma you were right so his music gone beyond your expectations as far as the experience you thought you'd have maybe when you first don't know it's exactly what I thought it was going to be it's been wonderful it's never easy it's been if I had it to do over again I would I would do exactly the same thing only better hmm I can't beat that Don Manza thank you thank you pleasure thank you [Music] [Music] [Music]

Channel: NYU Steinhardt Jazz Studies

Views: 2,385

Rating: 4.9259257 out of 5

Keywords: NYU Jazz Studies, NYU Steinhardt Jazz Studies, NYU Steinhardt Jazz Interview Series, Don Menza, Dave Schroeder, Dr. David Schroeder, New York Jazz, Interview Series, Jazz Interviews, Combo Nuvo, Buddy Rich, Maynard Ferguson, New York University

Id: WI6wd8sWvYM

Length: 53min 53sec (3233 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 10 2018