Confessions of a Trans-Care Propagandist | Sara Stockton | EP 342

should accept yourself just the way you are what does that say about who I should become is that just now off the table because I'm already good enough in every way so am I done or something get the hell up get your act together adopt some responsibility put your life together develop a vision unfold all those manifold possibilities that lurk within be a force for good in the world and that'll be the adventure of your life [Music] your identity is the manner in which you're situated in Social space now it's also something internal and psychological it is who you experience yourself as being but that's not all of it you exist in relationship to your intimate partner you exist in relationship to your family you exist in relationship to your neighborhood in your community in your town in your state and your country and your Transcendent ideals of one form or another and every single one of those aspects is part of identity and the idea that that can all be reduced to something internal and subjective it's the ultimate extension of the idea that the only person who can say what I am is me one of the things I come across in my child he's he's 10. and he came home and he was explaining to me about his uh friend who transitioned and is now a female so his first question of course was did this child grow a vagina over the summer his friends are confused now does that make me gay that I like them what do you mean can I grow a vagina over the summer how do I know I'm not next and my son asked me well how do I know if I'm a boy and I was just like this is scary and it is disorienting our children [Music] hello everybody I'm here talking today with Sarah Stockton Sarah is a therapist and she was interviewed for Matt Walsh's documentary what is a woman and she's been involved um well in those sorts of issues for quite a long time I watched the documentary and was struck by her testimony and she also reached out to me wrote me a letter about how things had unfolded for her and her therapeutic practice over the last five ten years and we've decided jointly that a further conversation might be useful publicly and also well useful to people who are family members of adolescents suffering from gender dysphoria but also useful for therapists who are torn ethically about how to proceed properly in this fraught gender affirming therapy environment and so thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today I'm sure that your decision to make your concerns public has been very hard on you um I I have some real sympathy for that why don't you start by telling everybody how it is that you came to be involved well in this entire Quagmire but also why you decided to participate in the Matt Walsh documentary which I'm also sure took a fair bit of soul searching so let's why don't you lay out the story yes and I think we'll talk a little bit more about my experience but I started in 2008 working in a special uh transgender team and that's where I started my expertise and Specialty in that I had participated and co-authored the transgender assessment that mental health professionals use to assess transgender youth Readiness to begin hormone treatment or medical treatment I published that and I had worked a great deal of my first part of my career traveling teaching doctors teaching schools how to change their practice for to be more gender affirming care that is a terminology that is more recent that was not what I was using back then then I sort of came across in my practice a lot of concerns around this being 15 years in and treating a lot of sexual issues I had some concerns with how it was developmentally being presented to our children and so I kind of just stopped doing that specialty and I went on to just doing sex and then as life would have it I have children who are in grade school and coming across these issues and children coming into my practice with questions that I can only understand that they would have because of this presentation being even allowed to be taught to them at such a young age and so what actually happened was a client sent me a clip of Matt Walsh on Dr Phil I'd never heard of Matt Walsh prior to that and I just happened to message Matt Walsh and told him hey I'm I was a part of writing the assessment and I have some concerns and he contacted me right away and I had flown out within a week and did the documentary and spoke with him all right so we'll talk about about a little bit about how that's impacted your life let's go back what's your educational background like how did you train as a therapist yes so I have a bachelor's degree in Psychology and then I went to Syracuse University where I received my master's degree in marriage and family therapy okay and then how did you get involved this was back in 2008 you published a paper that was devoted towards assessment was it specifically assessment of gender dysphoria what what exactly was the paper and how did you get involved in that particular issue why did that attract your attention Okay it's very good question so in my school where we were going we were the top place for actually developing the hormone assessment to start adults on hormone replacement uh therapy so the professors there were very much in charge of being the first ones to ever be giving these letters making these letters so we were introduced to you had an opportunity to get on what they would call a transgender team and you would have to interview to be on this team and I will be honest with you I'm a young 22 year old and my interest is in Sex and that was obviously a introduction into a complex thing that people were dealing with so you would get onto this transgender team and we would have special training about body dysphoria gender dysphoria uh what are the sexual implications and then we were required to see these patients at our clinic and get supervision weekly what we what at this time they were really recognizing was was would there be a better outcome for these individuals if there was early intervention medically therefore we the responsibility of my group was to take the original assessment that was used for adults and turn it into a comprehensive assessment to evaluate uh child's Readiness along with their family because this was a systemic program to see if they understood the implications of starting hormone blockers or home hormone replacement surgery okay so so let me see if I've got this straight so when you were about 22 you were pursuing your bachelor's degree you had an interest in the broader domain of sexual behavior and that was part of what was driving you towards a clinical path you started working with adults who were transsexual or transgender and how old would have they been on average oh it was all at all ages but I would say you're typically dealing with 30s 40s and 50s okay okay so these are people in early middle age let's say and and so they're they're being assessed for suitability for medical transition which would begin with hormonal transformation and then the idea emerges well you know there are 30 or 40 or 50. it's pretty late in life to begin such a transformation would it have been better for them let's say have they uh discovered this route earlier and if it was better how what would better look like and how that might be how might that be brought down the age chain so that it's uh made available for people who are very young of course then that raises the Specter of how young and also the problem of differential diagnosis now let's let's make a slight foray here um into us into a different area so from what I understand of the clinical literature with regards to gender identity dysphoria there are two essential manifestations of what becomes something approximating transmitism or transsexual um orientation and one of those is relatively late onset and people like uh what's his name uh Zucker Ken Zucker his hypothesis was there are the auto gynophilic late onset transsexual types who tend to be men who tend to dress up in women's clothing uh generally uh Force for essentially sexual purposes and they're dealing with issues well that are difficult to understand but might have to do if you're thinking about it from a psychoanalytic perspective might have to do with the difficulty of integrating cross sexual personality elements into their personality that takes a sexual root among the autoginophilic types and they're a separate group from children who develop body dysmorphia or gender identity trouble very early and they tend to be let's say feminine boys feminine by temperament or masculine girls masculine by temperament which is maybe also why a very large number of autistic girls seem to be caught up in this and they're they're a diagnostically distinct group and conflating them isn't helpful that's an additional complication these people that you were seeing in their early middle age do you think that they what What proportion of them do you think were temperamentally um ill-fitted let's say to their biological sex masculine girls or feminine boys and how many of them do you think at that time this is back in 2008 fit more into the auto gynophilic category and or did you make that distinction at that time so I'm and this is one of the reasons Dr Peterson why I'm having this conversation with you I I have to be honest um being taught under this terminology it wasn't until I was in my practice on my own for many years that I was even introduced to the terminology Otto gonophilia so I can promise you that that in schools right now they're not being taught that they are not understood that and it took so I mean I think one of the really unique things about my life was that I had the opportunity to work with cross-dressers which really showed me the difference between what we're calling body dysphoria and gender dysphoria and the erotic nature of it and not only that I was introduced to um a client who in his late 70s actually um had his penis amputied and it was a really unique case because he would have what we would understand his body Integrity disorder he grew up on a farm in Arkansas and really uh hated getting up early and having to do all the work as a male would have to do his cousin ends up getting his her arm amputed off and therefore does not have to do a lot of work on the farm this really impacts him throughout his life he becomes engineer as children what not but he has an extreme dis pleasure with the fact that he doesn't have something wrong with him that would stop him and he decided that that needs to be his penis and he went to Philadelphia and asked to have the surgery and they are said you will you're not trans and he was like okay but I dislike this body part of mine and he took a pen and put it up his penis and let it go to gangrene he was under no influence of alcohol or drugs and ends up at the hospital and does get his penis amputee and I was called in because they there was no uh homicidal no suicidal ideation no no Under the Influence this was the case where he was like I just do not like this body part now I did a lot of Assessments around being trans this was an agenda thing this so that really showed me of like whoa there is a lot of things going on for people and the outcome of I don't feel as a child is is very complex and and that we weren't I was not yeah yeah well that's that well okay okay well that okay so that's very much worth delving into I mean there's a very um cardinal temptation for people who are wading into extremely complex territory to assume that the territory is a lot simpler than they think to assume the problem is unidimensional and then worse to assume that the that the treatment is simple and unidimensional and certainly if you're wandering into the territory of paraphilic sexual attraction let's say to say you're in a Minefield is to say almost nothing because the limitlessness of human sexual pathology is enough to produce post-traumatic stress disorder in anyone who studies it in any depth and so and and you said that when you were educated that that all of this was collapsed into something that's like a hyper oversimplification right and then there's a moralistic element to it too I mean Zucker is a really good example because Ken Zucker was probably the world's foremost leading Authority on gender dysphoria and auto gynophilia which he separated very carefully clinically he ran the gender dysphoria clinic in Toronto and was eventually hounded out of his life by gender affirming activists and what Zucker showed were well apart from the distinction between the auto gynophilic types and then the kids who had uh cross sex temperament he showed that if you left kids who had body dysmorphia issues alone 90 percent of them would settle into their biological identity by the time they were 18 or 19. but he also showed quite clearly that the early onset gender dysphoria kids were much more likely to be gay about 80 percent of them adopted a homosexual or manifested a homosexual orientation and one of the Terrible inspectors that that entices upward out of the crypt is the fact that the gender surgical Enterprise hormone therapy puberty blockers all of that overwhelmingly targets the gay population and that's a very interesting issue on the political front because in principle there's an LGBT Alliance and Community except that the interests of the transsexual types especially the radicals couldn't be more diametrically opposed to the interest of the gay community assuming such things exist if it was designed to be antithetical okay so now you were placed in a situation where as a therapist you were trained in a uni-dimensional analysis of the gender dysphoria problem and then you started to develop the assessment guidelines correct and did you do that as a bachelor's student or as a master's student no it was with Masters and PhD students okay okay and so walk me through the development of the assessment process and tell me what you were thinking then about assessment and about and what you think about it now and I'm also interested too in why it was that it was through your interest in sex that you became interested in being a therapist yes I mean I think I have a little bit of um I you know comfort with discomfort or the uh things that people don't want to talk about so I think that really hit for me and one of the things I reflect on because I kind of am embarrassed that I used to present on this topic but I have a medical condition I have a blood clotting disorder and from the outside many people can't see that and I when I would present with Physicians around how to get their practice to be more gender affirming I would share that that you know you don't know what it's like to have an illness that perhaps people don't know from the outside and that really helped me relate to these children I think of like you're presenting with something that maybe from the outside no one understands but from the inside that it's there but but now understanding my diagnosis can medically have evidence right it's there's chemicals that can be diagnostically looked at and that's not the case for the children so I will say when we started doing this it wasn't a lot of children there wasn't like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds like there are now that need to be seen these were children like you said that were presented pretty young presenting pretty young with aversions to their body right and these are at this time too we don't have Internet we don't have Internet in the same capacity Tick Tock right yeah they don't know what they're talking about so they're not telling us I'm transgender these were parents bringing kids to us saying something's going on this kid is saying this you know my penis shouldn't be here and they're three um they are you know have consistently shown a certain way so this is what this is the cases that we were presented with and working with and we this assessment was supposed to be probably about a year to a two-year assessment right to fully assess the six domains of Early Childhood we would look at so how was their gender presented in early childhood does the way they present and discuss it connect with their with their family so that was a big part of double checking was wasn't just what the children said it was what the family were presenting as well of what they've witnessed going on with their child physical history sexual um context School context and one of the biggest areas and domains that are no longer discussed and I and this is where developmentally I was really concerned is future expectations I mean when I was doing it back then these children understood they were never going to be that gender so if they were they were going to be a trans male and I think that distinction was significant whereas now it is magical like no I'll be a male because I said it and one of the things that I can't assess as easily is do they know the implications to what they're doing back then I guess well even as adults we rarely know the implications of what we're doing so it's very very difficult for especially hyper-confused kids when you were developing these assessments okay so first of all you said we've kind of talked about why the idea of early assessment had emerged on the landscape right you're dealing with older people and the question arose perhaps they should have been dealt with more efficiently when they were young and so you could see a Trail opening up in that direction now you're talking to kids who have body dysmorphia that their parents are bringing to the attention of therapists and of course that's a snake pit too because there's endless numbers of reasons why children might develop body dysmorphia some of them would have to do with temperament body mismatch but there's all sorts of other possibilities too that they're responding to unconscious prompts on the part of their parents that would be particularly true if they have narcissistic or Psychopathic parents and that's increasingly the case for the kids who manifest extremely early signs of so-called gender dysphoria now because their mothers often are making a display of their compassion by using their children's illness and their compassionate response to it as a what would you call it as a as a goad to their narcissistic display yes you can see that sort of thing emerging everywhere and so that's a bloody catastrophe and then you have autistic kids who don't fit in very well especially on the female side and they do think in some ways more like males do because they're more thing oriented and you have the possibility of the early development of psychosis and then you have the difficulty of distinguishing the Children's Fantasy play from genuine concerns about their identity like it's it requires unbelievably careful multiple multiply dimensioned diagnostic analysis and you said you know your vision at least to begin with was that there was no fast route let's say to puberty blockers or hormone treatment you were looking at at least a one to two year assessment and I would think given my clinical experience that one year of weekly meetings with someone competent would be minimally necessary to sort any of that out and so and that was your vision and now it's three and 2008 it's three sessions it's three sessions now that's the standard okay so tell us why you believe that to be the case what have you observed well I mean and tell us about Planned Parenthood too yeah I think a lot of things I mean one of the things I will say it was obvious that this assessment was to get them on hormone blockers to either you know pause to see if they're if this is what they want and and that was the the goal of our assessment and one of the things well to get them on hormone blockers or to determine if that was the appropriate path I I want I want to say the first one but I will tell you as soon as there was guidelines people knew what they wanted so they came in and just knew that I was step one to get where they want so I've already right okay okay well that's very interesting eh because you see you run into US you run to a therapeutic problem there right away is because people especially if they're deeply confused will clutch at straws and if they feel that they've now got the answer to all of their problems then the next thing they're going to think is well let's get this show on the road right hey Reagan I know you're picky when it comes to skin care products so tell me what did you think of genucel skin care that's exactly right Garrett I'm the type of person who wants to know exactly what ingredients I'm using in my skincare routine which is why I'm loving genucel their products are made with antioxidants and formulated by compounding pharmacist and they're all about preventative skin care with Summer coming up around the corner I'll be using genucel's powerful retinol alternative which is safe to use on your skin in the hot summer sun they also have a dark spot corrector which helps reduce the appearance of dark marks and sunspots right now you can get them both in genucel's most popular package at genucel.com Jordan you heard it here first don't miss out on this amazing deal just in time for warmer days ahead go to genucel.com Jordan to get 70 off their most popular package every Aura subscription includes a luxury gift box with two free Springtime Essentials that's two free gifts plus free shipping go to genucel.com Jordan genucel.com Jordan now the unfortunate truth of the matter is is that if you're caught in an extremely complex psychological situation it might take a year of painful analysis and introspection just to figure out what the hell is going on and it's not like that's calming in fact at least temporarily it can make things worse as you start to assess all the familial pathology sometimes multi-generational familial pathology that's driving this kind of behavior forward but your observation it was interesting to watch you pause there because your observation was well as soon as this pathway became open now there's pressure you can imagine there's pressure from the clients to get the show on the road but then there's also pressure on the diagnostic and cost side it's like well if really what we're doing is facilitating transition why don't we do that as efficiently as possible and then you see the collapse of what your one to two year assessment into three sessions now I interviewed Chloe Cole who's suing she's a d transitioner who's initiated legal action in the United States and when I interviewed her I did something like a modified clinical interview partly because I wanted to see if anyone ever even walked her through the basics of what was wrong with her and the answer was a hundred percent no so I told Chloe for example she hit puberty pretty young and I told her well girls reliably experience an increase in negative emotion at puberty and that looks like it's pharmacological because the big difference in neuroticism between men and women doesn't emerge until puberty and it probably emerges in women because they become sexually vulnerable because the change in body size occurs at puberty so women are now at a physical disadvantage they're sexually vulnerable plus they're going to have to take care of infants in all likelihood at some point in their life and so it makes sense for them to be more sensitive to threat that produces a spike in negative emotion and with women in particular because women are evaluated for their physical appearance to a degree that isn't the case for men although men are also evaluated on that dimension the probability that negative emotion will take the form of concern about body Images extraordinarily high in women and so I told Chloe especially if you hit puberty early I said look the fact that you were unhappy and concerned about your body when you were nine because you were undergoing puberty is entirely developmentally normal and then she said something extremely interesting to me she said uh she had had fantasies when she was nine or ten and starting to hit puberty that she would end up if she was fortunate to be a woman who looked something like Kim Kardashian with that hyper feminine form and of course that's been enhanced in Kardashian's case and also celebrated madly in the requisite social media and Cole realized that she was going to have a rather boyish figure and instead of someone sitting down with her explaining to her that that was perfectly fine and that there's an incredibly wide range of male uh what appreciation for variations in the feminine form which is definitely the case she developed the belief that if she couldn't be you know Kim Kardashian she'd never be an acceptable woman or certainly not an ideal woman she's also a bit autistic and had a hard time getting along with girls and was found it easier to get along with boys and so she started to develop this fantasy that like your gentleman who decided that he'd be better off without his penis he she started to fantasize about the fact that life would probably be better for her if she was just a boy and then she was put on the gender transformation path really without a moment's hesitation and she ended up with a double mastectomy when she was I believe it was when she was 15. and the wounds from that surgery never properly healed so that's her life low voice quite masculinized possibly sterile although that isn't necessarily the case definitely while her breasts are destroyed Beyond repair you know she well it's a complete bloody catastrophe and it's partly because she was never assessed even remotely competently not in the least and so okay so now we see the collapse of your one to two year assessment you know which had as one of its implicit motivations the bringing forward of the possibility of puberty blockers and gender and then and then hormone transformation you see that starting to be rushed as a consequence of client demand but also as a consequence of institutional demand let's say absolutely so you start to see that unfold yes and once I see it unfold as if there's step one two three four in order to be the next gender right so hormone blockers surgeries electrolysis you know that that will be that's all the focus was on not even just treating the gender dysphoria I mean think I think one of the things that we might talk about later is when you talk about butchers and and I think about all the children's bodies that I've seen butchered and also knowing about trauma-informed care it's just really alarming to me that we're having therapists working with people who are chopping off their body parts and we're not even doing any trauma-informed care around any sort of trauma that goes on to your body and no there's no connection to those body parts those emphasis on what you did it's a very dissociative disc detached way of going forward and I I've seen a lot of concerns so one of the things that really surprised me in life was when I met my first D transitioner and one of the things that it was really surprising about that was when they were my client originally they had no gender dysphoria they had no body dysphoria they moved away to California and they were gay and they transitioned and and fully facial reconstruction I came back and I didn't recognize them and they said they made a mistake and I was like how did this happen I I worked with you three years I never heard you discuss body and it's an option like you said about modern day conversion therapy that it would be probably just easier if I was female instead of being gay and they transitioned and they made a mistake and that was my first like wow this is happening to people who didn't even have body dysphoria as a child [Music] right right yeah well it's a it's a moral Quagmire a you know the the capital the world's capital for sex transformation surgery is Tehran and the reason for that is the molas there have decided that gay is not acceptable but maybe you're not gay or a girl if you're a male homosexual say no you're not gay you're a girl and then if you go through with the surgical transformation then that's ethically acceptable and the consequence of that as I said is that Tehran is now the world's capital for gender transformation surgery and that should really make us think like long and hard right and so and the notion that it's also very interesting to speculate about why the delusion that puberty blockers hormone treatment and then surgery is going to be an easier route forward the idea that people take that for granted is also an indication of stunning um Diagnostic and assessment insufficiency because I got I talked to Abigail schreier about in detail about the horrendous complexity of well full surgical transformation which first of all isn't possible except in the most in the shallowest possible manner I mean you can build a man a vagina that will function badly for sexual purposes but it has none of the other functions of the actual parts and it's as if we reduce this is something I find particularly reprehensible it's as if we've reduced the concept of woman to um whole usable for sexual activity because nothing else is transformed in the surgical procedure and that's a pretty damn shallow definition of what constitutes a woman and to brandish that in front of desperate young people who are confused beyond comprehension as a solution to their psychological problems well that's why I wrote that essay butchers and Liars it's so it's so perverse that it's almost incomprehensible and it's a miracle of a negative sort that we've actually got ourselves in a situation where this is not only the standard of care but it's the mandated standard of care because across jurisdictions around across Jersey sections Across the Western World increasingly if you're a therapist and you don't affirm someone's identity which could certainly mean within the first three sessions then you're actually on the hook for professional malpractice and so that's just a jaw-dropping transformation in standards of therapeutic care and it's interesting to see how that came about too because it came up at least in part as a consequence of legislation that was hypothetically designed to stop so-called conversion therapy which was the therapeutic practice that a tiny tiny minority of people used many decades ago to try to uh convince gay people that their orientation should and could be transformed but virtually no therapists certainly no therapist I ever met in my life practiced that it certainly wasn't part of the standard training protocol for any reasonably well educated clinical psychologists and so the idea that that was an issue was just a complete bloody lie but nonetheless jurisdictions all around the world rushed in to show their what would you call ethical superiority on the woke front and mandated therapists adopt this gender-affirming stance and so now you were interested when you were younger in helping people who had gender dysphoria deal with it you know and so you were tilted to some degree in the gender affirmation Direction but what did you see how did you see that grow and morph across time yeah I mean I think a lot of different ways I mean one of the ways of just again how people speak about it and I don't want to I I hope no one hears disrespect towards LGBT community I work a great deal with them but I want to go back to our Professional Standards just this year we in my profession they release a lgtp LG TV plus guidelines and I don't mean to be funny but that plus really makes me nervous I don't know what that means and I don't know what the protective class of that means I will tell you that I have kids identifying as as animals right those things are happening it was a joke when we started oh now you're going to have someone identifying as a lamp right and I'm telling you people are coming in with the trans ageism is right there I mean if you can feel like a boy if you can feel like a boy you can feel like a child and one of the things that concerns me I'll just give you an example the definition dead name I mean since I started the terminologies continued to change we we never called it dead name before it was you know birth name and that is very alarming to me we are normalizing suicide I there is you know we are killing a part of ourselves and by calling it stuff like that it is very dangerous um yeah well we're also we're also valorizing the idea that you can alter the past you can do it by force and you can punish other people who won't do it with you you know one of the reasons I got banned from Twitter and I think it was the primary reason it's very difficult to tell these things was because hypothetically I dead named Elliott page Ellen Page which I'm now doing again by the way and uh all right this whole notion of dead name just came out of the Void as far as I was concerned it's like well who the hell came up with that idea why did it all of a sudden become a cardinal ethical sin and what the hell do you mean that I can't refer to someone by who they were and that that's now a crime I just don't understand any of this at all it's so utterly preposterous that it's almost beyond comprehension but but we're we're primed for this and there's an underlying set of ideas that have to do with the notion I guess we could get into this to some degree as well so psychotherapists have adopted this shallow idea and I think the whole field of clinical Endeavor is what would you say guilty on this front that the only valid marker of identity is subjective whim and this is actually technically wrong and good psychologists should have known this because identity is a multi-dimensional phenomena and so and the left insists on this the left insists for example that your identity is partly a consequence of your group affiliation but we could walk through that your identity is the manner in which you're situated in Social space now it's also something internal and psychological it is who you experience yourself as being but that's not all of it you exist in relationship to your intimate partner you exist in relationship to your family you exist in relationship to your neighborhood in your community in your town in your state and your country and your Transcendent ideals of one form or another and every single one of those aspects is part of identity and the idea that that can be reduced well and then there's the biological and physical elements of identity as well the fact that you have two eyes and not six for example and that you have a biological sex whether you like it or not and the idea that that can all be reduced to something internal and subjective is a consequence of the derailment of a kind of liberal Protestant ethos of self-actualization you know it's it's it's the ultimate extension of the idea that the only person who can say what I am is me and the problem with that is that it's simply not true I mean when you and I are sitting here talking we have to modify our mutual identities in accordance with our desire to have the conversation and so identity is always negotiated and the idea that it can now just be established by subjective Fiat and that that establishment has the weight of the law behind it is an inversion of absolutely incomprehensible magnitude and it's terrible for people who are confused because they're going to Define themselves subjectively in a manner that is not going to be good for the more sustainable in a social Community or sustainable in the long run and I'm absolutely jaw dropped in my amazement with regards to the cowardice of people on the therapeutic front who should know better than this and who do who are saying absolutely nothing about it and just going along with uh with the catastrophic Flood now for some reason like this really hit home for you you said in the letter that you wrote me that you read that article I wrote on butchers and liars and that really bothered you but you were already bothered by what you'd seen why has this bothered you so much that you've risked well first of all you know you're doing a an ideological inversion in some sense right because you're moving away from your initial set of presuppositions and then you're exposing yourself to tremendous professional Risk by going on Walsh's dark by appearing in Walsh's documentary and certainly by talking to me like why the hell are you doing this what why has this become such a irritant to your conscience that you feel compelled to take this risk because like you said I I wasn't taught correctly and I was taught very well in my opinion to be informed and to give ethical treatment and Do no harm it wasn't until I was about 10 years in that a parent came and handed me a piece of paper and said the doc the medication that you want to give your children my my child is not FDA approved explain to me why I should give my child an FDA non-fda approved drug these hormone blockers for children are still not FDA approved I didn't know that Jordan I should have known that oh wow yeah and things like that really alarm me and I will tell you having children and and going through so many things one of the things they like to say that just drives me crazy is you are assigned at Birth that is not true I have done IVF I know the sex the of my child five days after that sperm and egg meat it is not it is observed it is observed at Birth if anything it is not is not a sign so children and teacher and teachers and psychologists are are thinking that kids come out very ambiguous and it's not ambiguous that is a very rare thing one of the things I come across in my child he's he's 10. and he came home and he was explaining to me about his uh friend who transitioned and is now a female and I first of all he had a lot of questions for me because he was going to school with that child for many years so his first question of course was did this child grow a vagina over the summer and that show that showed me a lot that this isn't even being presented as no this is a mental health problem that this person is going and with or that this is gender dysphoria and this is what we're presenting it this is now a female so his friends are confused now does that make me gay that I like them what do you mean can I grow a vagina over the summer how do I know I'm not next and my son asked me well how do I know if I'm a boy and I was just like this is scary and it is disorienting our children and disoriented you couldn't you couldn't possibly disorient children more there isn't anything you could possibly do to children I don't think that confusing them about the difference between up and down would be more disorienting than confusing them about the difference between male and female and I say that partly because the difference between male and female emerged biologically hundreds and hundreds of millions of years ago there's almost no more fundamental perceptual category or what would you call it conceptual structure of orientation then the difference between male and female partly because if you're not capable of perceiving it you won't reproduce and that's the end of that and so the notion that this is somehow a social construct is so delusional that it's almost it's it's surreal it's beyond surreal it's it's surreal to the point of incomprehensibility and there's an arrogance about it that is um luciferian its magnitude the idea that we can subvert the entire natural order to the subjective whim of children is absolutely Preposterous and it must have been so how did you feel when your son came home and started asking you these questions what what effect did that have on you had a great effect and not to mention what he was saying there was lots of things going on he asked me if he could be this person's friend but one of the things he brought up was that they were in gym class and they were getting split up by girls and boys so this child was now with the girls and his friend was making a lot of comments about that and that concerned me about bullying so I went ahead and I read their bullying handbook and it did not say anything about misgendering and I went and called the school psychologist now I called the school psychologist without trying to give my son's name because I didn't think that was relevant to what was going on but I needed to understand if misgendering would be considered bullying because we have kids being these are 10 year olds okay so they're not on any sort of hormone blockers this is just affirming bite name and I asked her if it would be considered uh bullying and she gave me quite a bit of a pushback and she was accusing me of saying that this was a social contagion which you know I which it is which it is right 100 she demanded that I tell her who I was speaking of and I said with all due respect are you telling me that you how many male to female 10 year olds are at your school and she said define a lot and that was the end of the conversation to me how many kids are doing this and I said to her so let me ask you a question in fifth grade we we split up the children and we put them in a class according to their assigned sex and they learn about the period or what happens to the male are you going to be allowing this child to go into the females with that and she said yes and I said that you have no idea that dysphoria you will cause that child when they are sitting in that room and learning about the periods and they are never going to have the period and we are telling them but hey you're a female that is so scary and so and so things like that is just how did she respond with female psychologist you were talking to how did she respond to that very aggressively and she told me at the end I said you might want to get a policy she said it would be considered bullying according to intent and I said with all due respect right intent yeah how is it a 10 year old went to school with this kid since kindergarten as a boy and now you're telling them it's a girl it's like a toilet and a shelf just because you poop on the Shelf does not make a toilet and they do not understand you're not even presenting to them the concept of being transgender my son did not know what that was until then and I had to explain that to them because we have kids thinking they can wake up and feel a different way feelings are very sensual and this is not very good to keep going on is his feelings yeah well you know the like let's talk about the American Psychological Association guidelines for standard of care so one of the great advantages to the practice of Clinical Psychology was it's grounding in the research domain and so if you were trained as a clinical psychologist under the boulder model you were required to be trained as a clinician but also as a researcher and that meant that you learned how to analyze the scientific literature which by the way is not the case for Physicians and it's generally not the case for clinicians who aren't trained under the boulder model but if you learn to think scientifically there's certain conclusions that you're obliged to draw as a consequence of that training and one of the conclusions and this is conclusions that are well instantiated on the ethical front is that multiple techniques of measurement are required before you can formalize a diagnosis and so if you're trying to understand someone's problem to diagnose them let's say one of the sources of information that you use is self-report and self-report is essentially it's not entirely reducible to feelings but it's that's where you would put feelings you'd put feelings and thoughts all subjective identification no I feel so for example if you're diagnosing someone who's anorexic they're going to tell you that they feel fat now if you used only their feelings as the diagnostic marker you'd have to conclude that they're fat but of course if you have any sense as a clinician you'd note that if they're severely anorexic not only are they not fat but they're probably going to die of starvation and so but the point I'm making here is that we're already bound as clinicians who are research trained under the APA protocols to use multiple methods of measurement and so for example if you wanted to clarify the nature of someone's so-called identity you'd use self-report but you'd use objective diagnostic markers and sometimes that's questionnaires and there's other ways of going about it there's behavioral logging for example you can track people's behavior you do that if you were diagnosing people for depression you might have them fill out a mood inventory every hour every day for two or three weeks and look at the variation in their patterns you'd use well-validated objective questionnaires to and there's a whole method for deriving those and then you might also get gather information from family or friends or or let's say significantly involve professionals so for example if you're assessing childhood behavior in the classroom trying to diagnose children for for uh attention deficit disorder conduct disorder you might get the child self report you might get reports from their friends you might get reports from their teachers you might get reports from their parents and then what you look for is Convergence across measures and if you have convergence across multiple measures then you assume something like diagnostic accuracy now just as a sidebar for everyone watching and listening this is how you Orient yourself in the world okay you have five senses they're qualitatively different so hearing and seeing are not the same and hearing and seeing are quite different from tasting they're completely separate biological systems and they use different sampling approaches and what's happened evolutionarily is that we've converged on a five-dimensional solution we essentially believe that if something is reported to you by five different measurement techniques that's your five senses that that phenomenon is real no now that isn't even good enough because we're so it's so difficult to specify what's real that we also not only use our senses to evaluate the world but then we go talk to other people and see if they see hear taste and touch the same things right because even with those five senses we can get locked into an erroneous subjectivity and we need consensus and then empirical testing to ensure that we're not deluding ourself and that's when we're trying to strive for the truth if we're trying to delude ourselves for our for underground psychological purposes let's say things become even more complex so the reason I'm going down this pathway is to lay out for those who are listening the fact that it's already been established by by uh properly ethically oriented and well-trained clinicians that you have a primary ethical responsibility to use the reliable and valid means of diagnosis that are at your disposal and that means that you are ethically bound not to rely on subjective self-evaluation it's one input but it does not override the others and the fact that we've about faced on that partly because of legislative pressure but also because of ideological idiocy is absolutely 100 percent by the standards of the profession itself an ethical transgression and so okay so now we're letting kids no we're mandated to encourage children to assume that they're only what they are as a consequence of their day-to-day subjective self-evaluation right and there's nothing stable about that either because the additional claim is not only are you only who you say you are or feel you are whatever the hell feel means but that can switch at your choice at any moment and no one has anything to say about that as well under threat of punishment of Law and then we think well are we confusing children it's like well not only are they being confused as a consequence of that we're setting out to confuse them as deeply as we possibly could so and I think one of the big things I want to talk about too is there was a push an accord like as I was doing this that even diagnos diagnosing them with gender dysphora about dysphoria wasn't accurate or the best terminology because this is a choice I mean that's one of my concerns around this is that we really have gotten away from hey we are treating people of severe mental illness like someone was going through this has severe pathology happening now it's just if you choose and that I mean when I started they was not a thing and a lot of people that I do know that are trans actually think that that discredits their belief and supervising interns that come in and have children that say on Monday and Tuesday I feel like a boy and then on Wednesday and Friday I feel like a girl I don't know what word what that means and what we're talking about anymore and and just you know well we might want to delve into that too it's like you know people will say something like I feel let's say I feel like I'm in the wrong body or I feel like I'm a boy but I feel like a girl and then you think well what do you exactly mean by that well on the I don't feel like I'm in the wrong body front that means detailed analysis it's like well exactly what it is about your current physiology that causes you distress like precisely what it is what is it so in Chloe Cole's case for example it turned out that her fundamental problem was that she wasn't going to have the kind of curvy figure that she had viewed as ideal for a woman now that's a lot different than I feel like a boy correct right but if you don't delve into that carefully you're never going to get to the bottom of it and then on the on the subjective feeling front it's like well what the hell do you mean that you feel like you're a boy if you're a girl first of all how do you know that because you don't have privileged access to what it what it constitutes to feel like a boy whatever that means it's not even technically possible for you except in the realm of fantasy you know like I could imagine what it might be like to be a girl now let's delve into that a little bit so when my son was a kid he was about two and his sister was three and a half and she had little cotary of friends you know and they used to get together and dress up and they often for a period of time dressed my son Julian up in these little girl costumes you know like really feminine costumes fairy wings and like a little tutu and and they had quite the time um playing out this game and he would come upstairs and you know zip about and they'd chase him and so forth and I was watching that thinking okay what the hell's going on here because there was part of me that I had some discomfort about that and so I thought okay what's Happening Here a why is he doing it B why are the girls doing it C why am I uncomfortable with it okay so I started with my own discomfort because I thought well you know is something going on here that you should intervene in or not or is it about you and I talk to my wife about that and as we laid it out I realized that a young boy has to play out being a girl in fantasy and a young girl has to play out being a boy because unless you play it out build a fictional representation you can't understand the opposite sex and so then I thought oh I see what's going on he's just playing out being a girl and the girls are playing with the idea of sex and they're trying to calibrate what it's like to be the opposite sex and what it's like to be them and that's perfectly within the bounds of acceptable pretend play now one of the concerns I have at the moment is that our kids are so involved with screens that a lot of that early pretend play where sexual identity is truly established is actually being completely interfered with and I think a lot of what we're seeing on the Adolescent front is the re-emergence of that fantasy play that was always suppressed but in any case yeah I have a similar story journal with my son he you know was playing with Hilo on him to play with dolls and Barbies and I was obviously okay with that and I remember asking him like why don't we buy Eric like the prince for Ariel and he said to me oh I don't want to play with boys boys are mean and I was like oh okay so this is how he was understanding the world and you know he's a little older now he doesn't really play Barbies anymore but I was like okay this is how they're playing out and how he is representing how he understands women and and himself and I see a lot of parents I mean I'm not gonna lie to you the moment my kid played with Barbies I had to have the thought as a parent would I be okay if my son was a girl and where did that come from and I don't think our our parents our parents didn't worry about that I see my friends have to like okay I would accept if my child is this other gender and that is in itself bizarre that we're going down that path we'll be right back first we wanted to give you a sneak peek at Jordan's new series Exodus so the Hebrews created history as we know it you don't get away with anything and so you might think you can bend the fabric of reality and that you can treat people instrumentally and that you can bow to the Tyrant and violate your conscience without cost you will pay the piper it's going to call you out of that slavery into Freedom even if that pulls you into the desert and we're going to see that there's something else going on here that is far more Cosmic and deeper than what you can imagine the highest [Music] Spirit to which we're beholden is presented precisely as that spirit that allies itself with the cause of Freedom against tyranny I want villains to get punished but do you want the villains to learn before they have to pay the ultimate price that's such a Christian question so one of the biggest Liars lies on The Butchery and liar front is the is the following would you rather have a trans child or a dead child and that really really to say it annoys me is to say almost nothing and here's here's the technical reason so in the API guidelines for gender affirming care there are two contradictory claims being put forward it's very interesting to read the document because the first claim is that because of prejudice amongst researchers against the transgender Community there are no valid long-term follow-up studies of the mental health of transitioning people across the lifespan okay so that's quite the claim because first of all this is such a new phenomenon that it's no wonder that there are no long-term studies and the fact that there are no long no long-term studies might be tangentially related in some small degree to Prejudice among the research Community which is about the least prejudiced Community that's ever existed on the planet by the way but but it's it's Preposterous to assume that the dearth of long-term follow-up studies is a consequence of mere Prejudice it's just well it's a new phenomenon that's the basic explanation but the admission is there are no well-documented reliable and valid long-term follow-up studies okay then three pages later the claim is well unless you allow people or facilitate people to transform early their mental health will be impaired to the point where their suicide risk is elevated I thought okay wait a second here one of those claims can be true even though neither of them are but both of them cannot be true simultaneously there are either valid long-term studies documenting the mental health consequences of transitioning or they're not or there aren't and the evidence is either pro-transition or anti now the truth of the matter is that the research that would be necessary to establish the truth of the proposition that early transition has mental health benefits has by no means been done and it's also Complicated by the fact and this is a true complication that testosterone itself has pharmacological antidepressant properties so if you give dysphoric young women testosterone or dysphoric young men for that matter then they do feel better but it's not because they're transitioning it's because of the biochemical consequences of testosterone so it's a bloody mess but the idea that we actually know that early transitioning for kids with so-called gender dysphoria is beneficial to their mental health that is an utter lie there is not a there is not one shred of it now it's worse than that because and this is clinicians who are properly trained should have known this so this is something else I want to delve into so the broadest category of psychopathology the the vaguest and most inclusive category is probably something like the Nexus between depression and anxiety right it's intense negative emotion virtually no one comes into the therapeutic milieu who isn't suffering from intense negative emotion okay and there are a multitude of reasons why you would suffer from intense negative emotion and some of those are biological circadian rhythm disruptions physical illness uh onset of puberty trait neuroticism which is a huge contributor which is also elevated among women compared to men which is why women have five times the rate of depressive and anxiety disorders cross-culturally there's lots of reasons to be miserable now if you're miserable that's amorphous because you're miserable and you're confused and so in some sense you don't know how to be miserable and that's where the cultural issue starts to become Paramount so if you go back to Freud's time for example there was a subset of women in Europe who were miserable hysterically Hysteria by the way meant wandering uterus that's the derivation of the term and sometimes removal of the uterus was cure for cure for hysteria it's very much analogous to what's going on now and hysteria took on a very narrowly culturally defined pathway so hysterical women were very dramatic and the Victorian culture was very theatrical especially in the upper Ash class echelons where hysteria was more uh probable just like anorexia was more common among you know upper middle class girls in particular and so it was very theatrical it involved a lot of shortness of breath it involved physical weakness and it involved sort of dramatic fainting and that became a uh psychological epidemic hysteria and then there's waves of psychological epidemics they happen very frequently probably about one a generation as it turns out and there's a literature tracing the outbreak of psychogenic epidemics going back 300 years the master document on that front is a book called uh the discovery of the unconscious by Henri Ellen Berger which is an absolutely brilliant book an analysis of 350 years of clinical Endeavor a brilliant book anyways when the pronoun controversy first emerged I told the Canadian Senate that if we mocked about with these fundamental categories we were going to produce a psychological epidemic because I knew this literature when you are being trained back in your 20s did anybody ever talk to you about the the existence of psychological epidemics not once and not hysteria not contagion nothing no okay so so we could we could list them out as they've manifested themselves over the last five decades so cutting was a psychological epidemic anorexia was a psychological epidemic bulimia was a psychological epidemic um there was a satanic daycare abuse Scandal epidemic in the 1980s and that's well that covers about the last 60 years so that's a lot of psychological epidemics and it turns out to be the case that the people most prone to psychogenic epidemics are pubertal girls now why that is I don't know you know I think maybe it's because girls hit puberty earlier than boys and so they're not as prepared let's say neurologically to deal with the rapid demand for maturation that puberty imposes upon them but also that with puberty with girls you get an increase in negative emotion and body sensitivity so maybe that's what tilts girls in that direction but we don't know but boys are less prone to that contagion for whatever reason and so it's certainly the case that the most accurate diagnostic um decision with relationship to the massive explosion of so-called gender dysphoria in the last five years is that it's another example of social contagion but you said when you were trained that none of that literature was even you weren't even exposed to it so you didn't know that that was even a possibility not at all in our you know again be way before social media takes off you know that that's not there either where the guidelines were out there so no okay so have you developed any expertise in the intervening years about psychological epidemics psychogenic epidemics oh absolutely and I think that's a big piece of why I sort of stepped away and one of the things I did notice when I was doing the training in adults I would say my so I did do both adults and children in my practice right I would say primarily I went with children because that's the fastest growing career at that time but when I was doing it when I was doing adults um the percentage of male to female I would say it was 80 percent male to female in adults whereas it's the opposite with kids so when I treated and that's I think why one of your letters was even more profound it was eighty percent of the kids I treated were born female and and one of the and one of the things that again that's difficult about this is that we can't have conversations around this and why wouldn't I see such an increase happening in adults if this was happening if this is accepted and the literature is out there I would expect that I would see a great increase of adults identifying as this and I did not see that so so one of the counter one of the counter claims that's been put forward with some degree of insistence in recent years is that we're not seeing a psychogenic epidemic what we're seeing instead is the fact that there was a lot more variability in sexual identity than the oppressive patriarchal culture had allowed to make manifest and now that we've taken off the restrictions people are just reverting or a lot or a lot they're now allowed or encouraged to express their true identity and so that's actually accessible because imagine now that we have a lot more people who are claiming um attraction to both sexes on the sexual front now what you should see as a consequence of that is that the rates of cross-sex sexual contact have would increase right but what's happening instead as far as I've been able to tell is that although up to 20 percent of young people now claim an identity somewhere on the LGBT Spectrum LGBT plus and definitely the plus is the you know the crucial issue there they claim identity on the LGBT plus Spectrum but if you look at their actual sexual behavior that hasn't changed a bit so for example most girls who claim to be bisexual for example have have only sexual experience to the degree that they have any with boys that hasn't moved at all and so that's very interesting to me it's actually quite surprising because I would have thought that the psychological pressure would have been sufficient to not only move identity claims but actually to move Behavior to some degree you know at least to increase experimentation but that actually doesn't seem to be the case which is more evidence that that initial orientation gender orientation and sexual orientation is you know much more solidly set than the social constructionists certainly and I think what one of my things that I want to point out is I really felt that I was signing off on agreeing for a medical intervention not an identity and that's what we're signing off on now and and I do think it's very unique that this is the only Medical thing I sign off on for children in my field there is not one other Medical diagnosis that I can give to a child that would give them medical treatment and we aren't trained for that and let alone what they are coming back with you know in terms of cancer and sexual issues and they are not going to receive orgasm and most therapists aren't ready to talk about that with the typical client let alone someone who now had can takes 25 minutes to drop urine in the bathroom now after post-surgery so I just don't even think we understand what we're doing right absolutely it's one of the things that shocked me when I first interviewed Abigail schreier because I'm a reasonably well-educated clinician but I am not a physician and so I didn't really understand the full ramifications or even the full extent of what's being referred to euphemistically in this pathological manner as bottom and top surgery I didn't realize for example that in order to construct a penis that will never work properly by the way either as an organ of excretion or an organ of sexual pleasure or reproduction that the victim's arm is going to be stripped of its musculature essentially right down to the bone leaving nothing for about a five inch piece except bone covered with skin so that the muscles can be harvested so that a dysfunctional penis equivalent can be fabricated and that's just one of the cataclysmic consequences of the full surgical nightmare nor do they understand that and nor do they understand I've had to teach people who are going to be of presenting as male who want to have sex with males and I have to explain to them you know you have a cervical spine and sex will be different they don't understand that these kids that are doing it they have no idea that they won't have functional reproductive organs anymore well and with with with Chloe Cole for example we delved into the issue of of breast reconstruction so she had a double mastectomy when she was 15. now the double mastectomies first of all I do believe they're a cardinal Act of unforgivable Butchery I think that people who have done that to minors should be put in prison that's my belief now here's partly why I mean first of all you don't remove healthy body parts from minors that's like let's make that rule number one but the other issue there is the sheer destructiveness of it not only will those women they're now they don't have breasts they'll never be able to breastfeed which is a real cataclysm for their children because breastfeeding is actually necessary for children let's make that perfectly clear they develop much better if they're breastfed they're much more intelligent and they're more bonded with their mother and that's a crucial part of early development so it's not something that can be replaceable with formula so but but in addition to that not only are the breasts removed and then hypothetically reconstructed but the nipples are removed and then replaced now first of all that might work and it might not and in Cole's case it didn't work very well because she never healed properly but it also means that all the erotic potential of that area has now been permanently sacrificed and that's a major loss I mean there aren't that many primary sources of pleasure in life and to eradicate someone's capability for erotic pleasure in that manner in this high-handed way at the age of 15 is absolutely well I think it's absolutely unforgivable I think it's criminally unforgivable and especially given that it's been rushed you know and I'd also like to point out for everyone who's listening just to make sure that this is as dark as it can possibly be because it should be is that you know different professions attract different kinds of people and so in media entertainment and um politics a disproportionate number of narcissists are attracted now that doesn't mean that everybody in those domains is narcissistic although that's a risk what it does mean is that if you are a narcissistic you're going to gravitate towards professions where there's a lot of public attention okay so let's think about surgery for a moment now the upside of surgery is that you get to be a surgeon and that you can help people but the downside of surgery is you get to cut people up now if you're particularly empathic the probability that you're going to be a surgeon is pretty damn low because if you're particularly empathic the barrier to having to make the hard decisions and actually make incisions and that sort of thing that's very that's very high barrier on the empathy side so generally speaking you're going to give surgeons who are lower in empathy and that's not necessarily a bad thing but the ultimate extreme of that is that and this happens in nursing as well and it happens in child care and it happens in the care of old people is that there is a non-trivial percentage of people in those occupations who have a sadistic bet and if you don't think that's true then well then you don't know you certainly don't know enough to be a therapist and you certainly don't know enough to formulate policy properly and I'm certainly not saying that all surgeons are sadistic but I am saying if you are sadistic and you have a medical bent then surgery is a perfectly lovely place to end up and I can't help but Wonder in my darker moments just how much underground pleasure The Butchers are taking in precisely their Butchery and so you know people might think well do we really have to go there and the answer is well when you're starting to strip the forearm musculature all 15 year olds to build them a penis that will never work and you're charging them five hundred thousand dollars to do that over their lifetime and you're putting them on the medical Mill and you're funding your goddamn Hospital not in not in least as a consequence of these surgical procedures then yes we have to go there that Rachel Levine who's you know the poster child for the trans movement in the Biden White House has his emails dark documenting his rumination and concern about how to make the medical transition process maximally profitable have been well documented on well in the public now and so if you don't think greed is driving this this kind of narrow greed allied with the kind of sadism then you're not thinking the other thing that's happening too you can comment on this maybe as a clinician is that you know when you make a cataclysmic decision in your life like you're male and you think I'm female and then you go and do what's necessary to transform yourself into a nurse that's female there's going to be a big part of you that has some major doubts and that's never going to go away and you could deal with those doubts honestly and accept it as a cost of your decision or you could do this you could decide to go out and beat the drum about just how right you were and you could push that all the way to the point where you're now convincing children that it would be in their best interest to do exactly what you did instead of facing up to the fact that you know maybe you have some qualms about your radical decision and so that's rationalization and justification externalization also all of that mostly rationalization and that can become unbelievably pathological and I certainly see that in the so-called trans Community it's like well not only are we like this but everyone should be like this including children and I see that I also see that kind of insanely narcissistic Psychopathology emerging on the drag queen Story Hour front because what I see when I look at that with a clinician's eye is that you have narcissistic mothers in particular who are drama dramatically portraying their creative openness and their compassion by exposing their children to adult males who are Auto gynophilic who are dressed up in lingerie who are dancing seductively in front of them as a display of their of the mother's moral virtue and that's that's Munchausen by proxy for all intents and purposes and of course I would also be curious when you were trained as a therapist to begin with did your instructors ever talk to you about munchos and syndrome or munchos and by proxy no and I had to come across that later in my practice which is really what that was kind of the final case where I saw in front of me a mother really present this for her child and in a way that you know I think if you spoke to can you talk about that a bit so I know you can't you know yeah um dispense with with confidentiality but what did you see yeah I mean so first of all a parent presenting the case was a very unique situation of this is how it's happened this is how my kid presented and the kid not being able to articulate the same story but going along with it and and I will tell you I mean for anybody who is struggling with mental health a lot of times when you get a diagnosis there's a freedom in that there's a oh yeah at least I know what's going on so I don't think we good at that when we give them an answer they that makes them feel good at least I know what's happening so for a kid I saw him like being taught what was happening to him instead of it was already happening to him and this was this was a very wild case in where I suggested to hold back and wait on giving them hormones and the courts over overrode what I said and the doctors went ahead even though I suggested to hold and that father lost his rights and um ultimately did take his life yeah well look you could imagine so here's the here's the terrible edible situation so imagine that you have a mother who's very immature narcissistic right then she has a child who manifests some forms of misbehavior as old children do but maybe a little bit more extreme you know and then the woman is casting about for reasons why her relationship with her child is Disturbed which is causing her suffering well the especially if she's narcissistic and immature the easy route out of that is to assume that there's something fundamentally wrong with the child okay now now then you Ally that with the narcissistic desire for unwarranted status and the mother learns very rapidly that if her child is trans that's pretty damn trendy and cool and she can get a reputation among her local community for being incredibly Progressive and compassionate and caring and she can shine in her virtue so I'll give an example of this when Ron DeSantis went after Disney one of the Disney Executives uh there was a there was a video that was released where a number of Disney Executives were talking about their um efforts to push the LGBT plus agenda using the Disney entertainment apparatus and this woman who if I remember correctly was in charge of domestic programming for Disney very well situated in the corporate um uh c-suite office and she said in the video that she had a five-year-old and a seven-year-old and one of them was trans and the other was pansexual okay and so then I did a quick statistical calculation okay so the probability that as a given mother that you would have a trans child truly trans by the definitions of 20 years ago is one in three thousand approximately and the probability that you'd have a pansexual child whatever the hell that is because that only emerged like three years ago is obviously less than one in three thousand but let's call it one in three thousand okay The Joint probability that you would have a trans child and a pansexual child is one in nine million and so what that means diagnostically is if you were evaluating that women woman and her children you would have a two million 999 999 to one probability that you are accurate if you diagnosed her as narcissistic right so what is it nine million it's sorry it's 8 million 999 999. it's one chance in nine million that she's not a narcissist right now narcissism in the general population like at clinical levels probably afflicts about four percent of people so four percent of mothers let's say have that tilt towards narcissism and there's going to be a substantial proportion of them one-tenth maybe God only knows what it is who are perfectly willing to sacrifice their children to their narcissistic delusions and now that's not only being enabled by therapists it's been demanded by lawmakers that therapists enable that and so that's the so you add would you rather have a trans child or a dead child and Chloe Cole's parents got caught in that trap and that's terrifying for parents you know if they're facing severe distress on the part of their children and a medical professional says well you know you're pretty Prejudiced and if you just drop the Prejudice your child won't cut their throat and so you have a trans child and that'll be a problem but better than them being dead so they're terrified out of their skull on that front and then you add the narcissism problem to that and then you add the fact that now therapists are mandated by law to do gender affirmation care and you add the sadism and greed of the people on the medical side well you have a perfect storm in relationship to producing a psychological epidemic and so that's exactly what we have on our hands and I do want to say this and I I hope it doesn't get me in trouble and I'm sure that people will come and have the opposite to say one thing I will note say in with this obsessed session with identity if this is really going on I would see this increase across races I didn't the majority of this is happening to White Caucasians and I can't yeah well you know that's that's a strange thing eh because the same was true for anorexia and bulimia yeah you know it was not only and it's an it's an interesting thing to speculate yeah you know because it's not obvious why that is um we know that more liberal white girls are much more likely to be depressed and anxious and I think so maybe maybe the link with dysphoria is that radically unconstrained freedom is destabilized yes right you know so here's an example if you have a three-year-old kid and maybe they have 30 outfits in their closet and you open the door and you say you can pick whatever you want the child will also often be confused by that and so and if you say look you have to wear this then they'll be annoyed yes but if you lay like three outfits on the table on the bed and you say which of those do you like the child will pick one and be perfectly happy now there's a consumer Choice literature like that too so you might imagine imagine you go to the pharmacy and you have only one shampoo to buy well you're not very happy about that because there's one damn shampoo I mean who cares really but you get the point now imagine instead that there were 200 you think well that's great look at all the choice but what you find is well if there's 200 shampoos the probability that you pick the best shampoo is zero because like what the hell do you know about shampoo and so it turns out that there's this Nexus where there's the proper amount of choice and it's a choice between a couple of Alternatives this is what you do when you play a game you know when you play chess you can't use a basketball but there's some things you can do with just the right amount and the problem with the radical liberal subjective whim identity theory is that people drown in possibility it's like well who are you you're telling you you can be anything you want what do you mean do you mean anything you mean anything do you mean I can be a girl do you mean I can be a boy can I be both can I be neither can I change that moment to moment Yes dear you can be anything can I be a pussycat now you talked about furries let's talk about that for a minute what have you seen on that front yes and I actually got a lot of pushback off of this small piece in the documentary um yeah I have kids coming to schools and teachers saying we're not doing anything because they're saying it's a queer identity now again I hear from the queer individuals that they do not own the furries so I want to make that very clear right now but they are coming to school with Tails and meowing and there is a subgroup and I don't think people really understand the dangerous slope of these chat rooms and these these these rooms and you talked about a little bit earlier one of the scarier new trends I'm seeing is human sacrifice coming up and talking about it kids are playing Human Sacrifice out with dolls and and you know I've seen exorcisms and stuff but where are they learning this and it's actually being taught through uh rituals in the LGBT community and through these chat rooms so these cosplay personas that they're taking on again this focused on identity who are you and they are saying a lot of that does look like again that looks like pathologically suppressed pretend play you know uh jacquesep noted when he was studying the development of play in in rats that if you deprived juvenile males in particular of the opportunity to engage in rough and tumble play that number one their prefrontal cortexes wouldn't mature number two they were hyperactive and number three that if you then allowed them to play they would play extremely intensely and aggressively in an attempt to catch up so imagine in these situations what you're getting is rebound pretend play is that kids have been deprived to pretend play early and so when they find these virtual forums where they can engage in fantasy you know too much later than should have occurred from a developmental perspective that that can just go completely astray you know I think the autoginophilia that characterizes these 40 year old men is a form of repressed Pretend Play Now by that time it becomes sexualized you know when kids are three and four there's not a lot of sexual impetus in their pretend play there's some but not much but if it's suppressed until adolescence or later then well the sexual element is also going to gonna gonna what what do you say make itself make itself manifest and these are also things that we understand virtually not at all let me close with with another question okay and uh well look you went into the therapy business as an empathic person with some interest in in the domain of sexual behavior and you strived to work as a compassionate person and to do what you could to act in the best interests of people who let's say were marginalized and that went astray why and and what do you think what do you want to tell want to be therapists and currently practicing therapists about what you've learned and about how they should adjust their attitudes and behavior accordingly oh a lot um I guess I would say to therapists is to really give informed consent and think about that element of practice and what does it mean to inform someone about their sexual reproduction their mental emotional health I mean not to mention 95 of these patients will be at antidepressants for the rest of their lives and the training of that um that we've talked to each other I think the scariest thing is is that this isn't safe to talk about and now we are signing off on someone's identity for the rest of their life and just being able to have a dialogue where we have to now discuss the transitioners I don't think we even understand the implications for most of these people are going to have cancer within 15 years I mean when you engage in hormones that is the risk and that is what we're telling people so we are telling people that the way to be validated which by the way will only be outside life is to get affirmation um to teach kids one of the things I've heard more recently is people that are transitioning are not being honest to Physicians about their real assigned sex so they are going into procedures not telling doctors their gender so they are getting prescribed potentially harmful medications and really neglecting their health so just advising people Sarah one other questions yeah so now you participated in this documentary you had met wolf documentary and now you're also talking to me and this is going to cause you a substantial amount of grief and so why why have you done it what has it done for you to decide that you were willing to speak out about this I mean because there's huge risk associated with it first of all you have to admit that in many ways you were misinformed to begin with and that that had some pretty net devastating consequences for you personally but for other people and that's a bitter pill to swallow but you're also exposing yourself to all sorts of well critical commentary and allegations of betrayal and transphobian and hatred like why are you doing this and what has doing this done for you um I'm doing it for our children I think they deserve the truth and they deserve the best outcomes possible I think even if you speak to people who are trans they would tell you that intervening at a young age is not the best and we should maybe really reconsider this um I have I'm not gonna lie personally felt very bad that I was a part of this in a part of realizing how quickly it became of how I was put in a position to affirm medical procedures that would impact them for the rest of their life they are not allowed to get those medical procedures without a therapist ladder so there was no choice um I would I would have parents I would tell parents to get a second opinion with this with what they're doing to their children and to continue to get help and just that I feel like I'm gonna spend the rest of my life fighting for children not to be butchered anymore okay well thank you very much for talking me today for everybody watching and listening I'm going to talk to Sarah for an additional half an hour on the daily wire plus platform I want to walk through the early stages of her career in the development of her interests and so we'll we'll do that on the daily word plus side um so thank you to all of you who are listening and watching and thanks Sarah for well you know this is land this is a field of landmines that we're walking through and so you know kudos to you for having enough courage I suppose desperation as well to say what you've observed to be the case in this forthright manner and hopefully it'll do some good yes and likely it will and hopefully you won't pay a price that's too high for doing it you know and I hope that you can reconcile yourself to the current situation and and uh you know put your conscience in order yes that would be good yes and so all right so thank you everyone for watching listening to the film crew here in um Regina Saskatchewan is where I'm here today thank you for facilitating this and to the Daily work plus people for making this conversation possible it's much appreciated and so ciao till next time everyone hello everyone I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com

Channel: Jordan B Peterson

Views: 2,424,872

Keywords: Jordan Peterson, Jordan B Peterson, psychology, psychoanalysis, existentialism, maps of meaning, free speech, freedom of speech, personality lectures, personality and transformations, Jordan perterson, Dr Peterson

Id: pCH-bUFR3WM

Length: 102min 58sec (6178 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 23 2023