Codependency Recovery Stages. Full Psych Central Webinar. Relationship Advice.

hi everyone welcome to tonight's webinar free yourself with the four stages of codependency recovery so my name is Zoe Kessler and I'll be your host this evening on behalf of psych central.com if you haven't already checked it out psych central has videos and webinars on a wide variety of mental health topics with speakers from many disciplines I'm very very happy to say that my guest tonight is Ross Rosenberg codependency psychotherapist and professional trainer he's also the owner of clinical care consultants in Arlington Heights Illinois and he is the author of the human magnet syndrome a popular bestseller on amazon.com tonight Ross will present his compact and revolutionary four stage codependency treatment model and his search in generals codependency recovery warning both were developed as a direct result of his own codependency recovery and 27 years of working with codependent clientele these new and innovative codependency recovery concepts have been met with universally positive feedback from both professionals and non-professionals alike so without further ado let's welcome our special guest Ross are you there I am thank you so II so much for having me be a part of this webinar you are very welcome and I am just going to throw throw this over to you so that we can see your screen and we'll have your presentation followed by the question and answers okay there we go okay well let's begin well first of all for those who are listening I can't tell you how pleased I am to talk about this aspect of my work with codependence it has been a long time coming I've been talking about why codependents are attracted to certain type of individuals mainly narcissists through a lot of my trainings in my book and now it's time for me to talk about what to do and how to do it and to begin it's important for me to define what exactly is codependency it has been around the term codependency has been around probably since the night mid 1980s traces back all the way back into the 60s but there are so many different meanings and definition for the disorder and for me to talk about what are the stages of codependency recovery or treatment let's start with an acceptable definition first codependency is an individual disorder that is expressed in relationships you can't be codependent or codependent is not a codependency it does not manifest unless you are connected to another person a codependent or codependency is not a personality type it's if we find ourselves using these derogatory pejorative terms you know well you know she's needy or he you know is lonely or pathetic and we we somehow connect that to codependency but that's the furthest from the truth there are so many different types of codependent and and it's important for us to know that codependency comes in different forms and shapes the most simple definition that I have which I created from my book for my book the human magnet syndrome is codependence hyper focus on giving love respect and care freely and abundantly to others while undervaluing dismissing or not demanding the same from their partners codependence want this an equal distribution of love respect and care or I call lrc but they don't know how to get it and that is what ties them into the relationship is they want it to be equal mutual they're with a person that is unable to reciprocate or be mutual they resent that person and they maintain a relationship so codependency that simply is someone who in relationships gives a much more love respect and care to others while not getting the same from their partner being upset about it and staying in the relationship in an effort to explain more about codependency I came up with two categories and one is an active codependent and a passive codependent one is more resigned you know I think of a the character yet of Bunker in all in the family that is resigned and kind of goes with the flow and the active codependent pursues the narcissist pursues the Attic pursues people tries to control them but both share the same psychological and relational traits is that they stay in relationships and where they freely and abundantly give to others while not getting the same so now that we have a definition of codependency it's important to say that codependency is a word that is overused and can be harmful in the way that people use it I've actually had a discussion just recently with melody Beatty who is the author of at least nine or 10 books on codependency including that the codependency no more and we've all talked about codependency as kind of determined is kind of morphed into a stereotype and one of the things that I that is that I emphasize in my trainings of my writings is that codependence are individuals that have problems in which they they feel stuck hurt and ignored it's important to recognize that these are folks you have a disorder although it's not recognized in the DSM they they are individuals who are struggling to find love respect and care but can't find it it makes me sad and sometimes frustrated to know that people use the term codependent as a pejorative negative term that often carries a stigma so in the process in the excuse me in the process of coming up with a treatment strategy for codependence I found that if I didn't warn them of the challenges ahead they might drop out of therapy and I find that it's important morally and ethically for a therapist to tell their codependent client that there is a lot of negative situations and experiences ahead if you pursue codependency recovery so one day I came up with the the use I used to turn the surgeon general's warning and of course we know on the pack of cigarettes that if you smoke the Surgeon General says you're going to get lung cancer our disease emphysema and you probably will die early well that is a warning that gives the person a choice an opportunity to make a choice do they want a smoker do they or should they not well similarly in in my sessions with the codependence I explained that if you continue in this path of codependency recovery a lot of negative things are going to happen a lot of challenges are going to happen you are going to experience some of the worst emotional psychological pain that you probably have experienced in your life I believe the client deserves to know that deserves to know what's ahead of them because if we are going to bring them past these huge obstacles and recovery we have to prepare them with the worst part the most difficult partner that the challenging part of codependency recovery there for the surgeon general's warning is I call it helps our clients reach a very informed decision it creates the very framework for the recovery the recovery work it helps the client participate in a cost benefit proposition it is through the early discussions through the Surgeon General warning discussions they get to choose if they want to pursue codependency recovery it creates realistic expectations for example and in Elko I'll go through this in just a few minutes when I talk about the four stages of codependency recovery but early on there are going to be a lot of negative consequences early on in the initial stages of codependency recovery not only should the client know about that not only do they deserve to know about that but they need to make an informed decision because with that information we can motivate and inspire them the therapist can motivate and inspire our clients to do the work we realistically prepare them for the fight of their life so I say to all the folks out there who are struggling with codependency that when a therapist prepares you for the fight of your life for for your decision to recover from codependency you are building a partnership with your therapist is going to be honest and not hold back any negative repercussions or results from this process you're going to be prepared for your adversaries you're going to be prepared for all the people who are going to be really angry and upset and disappointed see the Surgeon General warning anchors codependence in a recovery process by starting them off with factual information of what happens when decide to no longer subjugate yourself to passivity you know you no longer decide to be invisible relationships so all in all my Surgeon General warning is used to prepare my codependence realistically for what comes next when when I give the surgeon general's warning it's so important that I understand that people are scared and all of you out there who struggle with codependency I know you're scared I know that you really want to set boundaries you really want to be loved you really want to say stop that but you also need to know that if you if you start to do what you've always dreamt you should do and believe you need to do it's going to be difficult it's like it's like a hip replacement for example there's a guy that works with me fantastic therapist he was in so much pain but did not want to go to the doctor for his hip replacement and finally his doctor told him he said you know you know Richard it's going to hurt like hell you're going to be in surgery you're going to be in recovery you're going to have physical therapy and you're going to wish that you never had it and you're going to want to quit you might even die to to not have this done but if you go through it after a while a short while the positives the positives for the surgery or the positives for compensatory cover e is going to pay off I've been working with codependence for over 27 years and I've seen all of them start off in this first stage of fear and anxiety but they get through it and part of the Surgeon General warning is to explain not only what will happen and how difficult it will be but to tell all of you that the payoff is worth it that there is another side to - all the anger and all the resentment caused by you finally being healthy in the way that you behave or react in your relationships so when I what I've decided to do while I was creating this book the human magnet syndrome is I wanted to explain how to change our propensity to always fall in love with the wrong person codependence as I say my book seemed to always fall in love with narcissists are addicts and that and that information the book was helpful to to many people helpful - to understand the problem the nature of the problem but what do you do next what happens once you decide to work on codependency when you approach it like some people approach an addiction a problem that is out of control a problem that has taken most aspects of your life and and turn them into situations and relationships that can't be controlled that are intolerable and causing great amount of pain so what I did was I created four stages and I believe for very accurate stages for folk codependency recovery each stage is is time limited and I am and as I go through each stage I will tell you that the typical time to time involved in each stage but I have to say that no one individual is the same for some people stage one might last four or five six months for many many of my clients it takes them a year to get the stage one so when a lot of us were in the addictions field we talked about the 12 steps but no one talks about the unofficial zero step the zero step is that step where you have to figure out and admit that there's a problem that you actually have a name for the problem that leads you to get help and sometimes it leads you to go into twelve subgroups but to get to stage one which is setting boundaries this is one a client a person decides that they are ready it is time for them to change the psychological and relational landscape of their life their their therapist has already gone over what we've gone over the Surgeon General warning and explained the different stages of recovery and I find it's very helpful to explain before we even begin stage one is to actually give give the stages and talk about what's involved in them Stage one zero to three months the hardest stage this is what the Surgeon General warning was made for setting boundaries finally telling people you've had enough finally letting people know what you won't do anymore and what you will and staying firm in those bound Stage two three to six months maintaining these boundaries in a hostile environment now everyone's really angry at you your children your spouse people at work you can go backwards and and get off the recovery train or you can stay on it and maintain yourself in this very difficult environment or stage three when you are building relationships you're practicing new relationships and that and then leads the sage forum we are reinforcing strengthening your new relationships and from there your predilection or what I call your magnetic tendency to be attracted to the same unhealthy narcissistic type of person changes and I call that human baggage syndrome permanent shift so let's talk about stage one it is the most difficult and challenging of them all this is the stage that is analogous to being an alcoholic and quitting alcohol it could be any addictive drug that is has a difficult withdrawal syndrome it is it it is extremely anxiety provoking people who go through this stage are afraid scared to death deal with depression and panic because they have worried their whole life about what would happen if they finally set boundaries many of my codependents never have sadly never have set boundaries with their loved ones or those who that are that are they work with or their neighbors or friends setting boundaries for the first time with people who are narcissistic is very scary because the truth is at stage one the narcissists are going to be up in arms they're going to be extremely angry they're going to experience these boundaries as a tack upon them we and what I teach often in my own in my work done with codependency is that codependence of course are attracted to reflexively or magnetically to narcissists I get dance you need one person to you need to caretaker you need the caregiver and they both fit perfectly in this functional relationship that requires their opposite personalities to keep them together but when you break free from that dance and you challenge the person and you say I don't like that anymore I need you to do this the narcissus tends to not have the ability to accept fault in the problems they tend to get very angry they feel betrayed and they blame the person who's blaming them in other words they can't see what's wrong with them but they can always see what's wrong with other people so in stage one when you are setting boundaries for the first time and you say I want to go out with the girls I want to go to a movie you take you take the children to to their swimming lessons and this would be the first time that you've ever stood up to the narcissus and insisted that he or she do something that you or normally would do always the narcissus is going to be very angry threatening it could be overt or covert anger or what I call emotional manipulation it's very very scary for the codependence in this stage because they have never really experienced safety in speaking their truth and the aggression overt or passive aggression of the narcissus is something that they've avoided their whole life what I prepare my my clients for in stage one is an immediate loss of friendships and relationships and what I say is the people that love you and the people that don't love you are all going to be angry and it sounds silly to them but I it's a fact those who love you and don't love you are going to be angry what's going to happen in stage one is you won't be able to tell the difference but there will be a separation of the two in the latter stages your children will be enraged you'll tell them to put down their their their telephone and come to dinner or study the very first time you set a boundary they will treat you like you are a stranger they will look at you with hatred you are going to learn about very quickly what happens when a codependent finally sets boundaries and reasonable expectations and immediately the world will seem like it's going to explode so it's important that we prepare for immediate loss of friendships and relationships we don't know if these relationships will be reconciled later but it's important for a pair for that because if you worry about a relationship being lost during stage one it counteracts the importance of all of the processes and in inch and tasks necessary in this stage it's important to manage these these moments where you just feel like caving in we just say enough is enough I can't handle the constant threats and manipulation you finally set these boundaries and you just are going to be head full force with the narcissist or in your life wanting you to be this this codependent that it used to be you're going to feel isolated you're gonna feel alone and worship even lonely your friends and loved ones will be angry and resentful you'll deal with criticism and condemnation accusations you're going to be told paradoxically and unfairly that you're being selfish and that to me is the saddest accusation of all that the codependent who has been selflessly connected to her loved ones or his loved ones who has done everything for everybody when they set boundaries they're told that remain selfish but the reason that the emotional manipulators or the narcissist say that it's because it has always worked before unco dependence starting back in their childhood that if if someone told this person who's either going to be a codependent or a codependent you're being selfish that has always enticed the codependent to back down and to meet the needs of the emotional manipulator I introduced a technique which I call the observe don't absorb technique and today I will not have time to go over it and I welcome you to go onto YouTube and I have a YouTube channel that has a 50 in my videos and most most of the information that I talk about today and in other trainings is included there but it's a very helpful technique to manage the onslaught of manipulation that happens in stage 1 to to not get caught into the the anger the rage and and the forceful manipulation of all the people who are reacting to stage one this stage will only last about three months so it is our it is it is my goal it's a therapists goal to keep the codependent strong and motivated and focus and help them manage the compulsions that acquiesce or give up so then we move to stage two this is where the intensity of the conflict comes down a few notches it's still very very difficult stage two is maintaining boundaries in a hostile environment you've already set boundaries the important boundaries of things that you will or won't do anymore you've spent two three months of people being very angry threatening you and trying to manipulate you to get you back to your codependent ways but you've been strong and you believe that you deserve to be loved and cared for and an equal proportion and then you do for others so what happens in stage two is those that don't love you sadly these could be your spouse it could be your best friends it could be people you've known your whole life it could be even family members they start to go away I call this process separating the wheat from the chef in other words this is when the narcissist cannot tolerate a relationship that is balanced to some degree of mutuality and reciprocity and they decide that they can't be in a relationship like that and they leave or the recovering codependent going moving beyond stage one starts to hold fast those boundaries and the relationship ends it's a very difficult stage and it's a sad stage because because relationships that you thought were loving that you were that you believe that were more loving and caring they just break down one of the hardest things that my clients struggle with is the realization that the relationships that they thought were important to them were only as good as them taking care of that person and as soon as that codependency stopped the relationships would not persevere the narcissists go away this is when we begin the grief work this is where we talk to when I talk to my clients in and we talk about how much it hurts to have that best friend that narcissus best friend that indignantly indignant Lee we can't pronounce my words tonight sorry with great indignation I've accused the codependent of being unreasonable and broke the relationship off or their parent who when you set the boundary in stage one says they don't want to see you anymore there's a lot of grief and as in stage one wonder the withdrawal symptoms as I call you know again using this you know as a comparison to an addiction the the compulsions and the obsessions of wanting to give up the fight and go back to your old ways they are reduced but there's still problematic but it's really important in stage two is to delineate between healthy and narcissistic relationships because in this stage this is where we are learning what is acceptable and what is not when when when we can be patient because it's not all or nothing it's not that you get rid of all the narcissists and only keep the the the loving healthy balanced people well that's unreasonable during this stage you have to figure out well what is fair what level of reciprocity mutuality is okay how much how much empathy are you willing to give up and and in this stage with which last which last thirty to sixty days excuse me three months is six months I'm actually trying to put the screen down okay that it is important that the codependent acclimate the narcissistic injuries guilt trips shaming and allegations of being selfish and and once they acclimate to it once they get used to it once they become become familiar with the narcissist and the way that they manipulate they start to predict it they start to feel more confident they have negative thoughts and fears they have less thoughts and fears and they over time they become more and more confident they set their boundaries without the fear of someone not wanting to be in a relationship with them because codependence previously before the recovery work they will not set a boundary because of their fear of being alone in stage 2 the boundaries are set because they know that having a healthy relationship is far more important than the anxiety fear and grief in these stages the next stage and hold on one second I'm having a prayer we go Stage two is in this stage it's really important to use the observe don't absorb technique it's again it's a technique that teaches the codependent that when you participate in the emotional manipulators narcissism they have control over you that if you observe the controlling nature of the narcissists instead of absorbing it or getting pulled into their drama or analogous to if you let toxins inside of you when you get sick that keeps you connected to your recovery and out of the manipulative strategies of the narcissist and over time the codependent acclimates to the loss of friends loved ones and relationships they stay on top of depression negativity and pessimism they fight the obsessions and compulsions to relapse and they build a support network so important because therapy is not enough a codependent has been alone either literally alone or alone around people their whole life and it's a loneliness that ties the codependent or the fear of loneliness it ties the codependent into these relationships that are harmful to them that is why building a support network whether it's codependency Anonymous whether it's a church group whether it's you know a voluntary group connecting to others is that is the solution to codependency recovery so let's talk about stage stage 3 stage 3 lasts for about 6 months it's a longer it's longer than both the first and the second stage the first stage is where you set down reason everyone is angry and you doubt whether this is right and and you you struggle with your own thoughts that it's worth it stage 2 is separating the wheat from the chef where you start to experience people disappearing and you and you maintain your boundaries and hostile environments but eventually over time the smoke clears and the time for building relationships if experimenting comes to fruition this is a time when there's a complete dissolution or end of the codependent narcissists relationship experienced the codependent no longer feels codependent they no longer accept others unfairly expecting more of them than they're willing to return their anxiety and fear of being alone and lonely starts the lesson they start to experiment and reach out to those who are around those who have survived the first two stages and start to build upon these relationships some of these relationships reconfigure family members they get over what is unfairly called selfishness now remember there are people that that threaten to leave the codependent in stage one and at this stage some of them return it doesn't mean that they're narcissism has gone away is they just accepted that this person who has who now has more self-respect who now sets more boundaries who still to the narcissist is a pain and aware but they realize that they still want them in their life so what we see is some of these narcissists returned back and and show the recovery codependent that they are more important to them than not to them it's very satisfying to my codependent clients that have stage 3 they start to have people come back to them who were who promised them or threatened them they never wanted to see him again these relationships start to start to look more mutual start to look more shoot affair there's more sharing and the codependent it in stage three is starting to experience perhaps for the first time that the support and in the end giving and the respect that maybe they haven't experienced in their whole life I call this a reconfiguration of the human magnet syndrome and in my book I talk about how we are magnetically drawn the the codependence are magnetically drawn to the nurses but also healthy people are drawn to each other so the healthy person who is giving and loving it's not necessarily codependent well they're going to be attracted to someone who's bold and maybe a little bit self-centered well that's there's a reconfiguration of attraction patterns you're no longer attracted to narcissists you find yourself more turned off and attracted and you start to find yourself more attracted to healthy people during stage 3 we experiment with new relationships we talk about with our friends what it's like to date someone that listens I can't tell you the excitement that some of my clients talk about when they start to experience people that actually want to hear what they have to say that actually do polite and kind things when things don't go right in this in this stage the nurses reappear on the coat the recovering codependent can detach easily they're not pulled into the drama of the emotional manipulator of the narcissist they spot it and they set the boundary in when it doesn't work out they remove themselves because they up to this point I've had six months to a year practice there are painful episodes of loneliness or less frequent and as I said earlier and in my other writings loneliness is the key with withdrawal symptom of codependency every the co-dependent in the first stage of contents recovery experiences deep deep bouts of loneliness that are painful those mouths are gone and sometimes being alone feels good also in stage three like any addiction sometimes there's relapses sometimes the codependent loses loses their judgment or has a bad day or just something kind of goes wrong and they relapse and they connect with their narcissist they go back to a lover they quickly bounce back they quickly realize that they can never really go back to the beginning because of all the progress they've made sometimes I find it's helpful to my clients to actually relapse because it shows them how far they've come and what is not acceptable anymore stage for the last stage which is one year or longer this is when your new relationship orientation has taken root it's when reinforcing it's reinforcing or strengthening your relationships it's a very exciting time exciting for the therapists to see their former codependent client be happy and in love with people that can share as much as they take there is a complete cessation or end of pathological caretaking the relationships that they have are mutually loving respecting and caring now it doesn't mean that it is equal all the time no one has ever said that a relationship has to be equal there just has to be a balance the new relationships will be defined by a fair distribution of love respect and care there'll be healthy boundaries boundaries that are open that go both ways there will be interdependence you know and I love this word because interdependence means they be separate but connected is to have your own individuality but be connected to a relationship I talked about this in a article I wrote for The Huffington Post called is your relationship mathematically sound about the importance of reciprocity and interdependence in a healthy relationship during stage 4 loved ones will admire and affirm your growth and change unlike stage one where everyone is angry all of a sudden people are admiring you that the funny element of this stage that both me and my clients often laugh at is the people who criticize them for being selfish in stage 1 or stage 2 they start to say how much healthy they healthier is strong are they see the critics have forgotten or complaints and feel closer to you relationships are balanced and the cravings and withdrawal symptoms have stopped loneliness is gone in fact being alone might even be preferable a recovering codependent in stage four is now repelled by narcissist there's almost a reflexive reaction that when they are in a situation with the narcissist something happens if ships they are immediately turned off by narcissus and turned on we're excited by healthy prospective partners as my dad once said no more cell mates just to soul mate this is where love the love that we dreamed up can happen well this is this was an introduction to my four stages and I hope you appreciate it and I would love to take questions so I'm going to turn it back over to Zoe thank you so much Ross can you hear me are you know fantastic that was such a wonderful presentation and I know that people are so interested in this topic in fact it's it's I have so many questions myself but I must say that we have many questions from the attendees as well that I think we should just jump into them and if there's room for me at the end all as my question okay so I no particular order the first question that's come in is can two codependence and and the questioner says male-female but I live in Canada so I need to include male male female female can to codependence have a healthy loving relationship my experiences to codependence are not attractive each other there is not that fluid magnetic attraction you know often and people will talk about when they're either divorcing and they're not in recovery and they're still codependent and there talk to me about that they're dating and they'll say when they meet a codependent there's no chem there's no spark so typically to codependence can can have a friendship but we don't see that pattern lasting in romantic relationships okay thanks and I have to say there's a little bit of a buzz on the audio I'm not sure why it's not a big deal but if something different on your end anyway lots of questions so here's the next one and I like this very much Ross are there are some very specific instructions for setting boundaries available that's a great question yeah that's about three months of therapy the instructions are is to start off with the observed own of our technique because that teaches the client to not get pulled into the manipulative strategies the narcissist uses to break you down when you set boundaries and and I don't mean to be dismissive or or try to like walk away from this question but that literally is could be an our whole training or webinar in itself and perhaps a good follow-up is but clear boundaries and and consistent clear boundaries that's that's kind of what I'll say and I apologize that I can't go any deeper because I really want to get to other questions okay great fair enough oh here's a good one - is there a correlation between drug addiction and mental disorders such as bipolar depression with with the nurses yes there actually is and I talked about this my book Amon Magda syndrome to understand pathological narcissism we have to understand that an addict behaves narcissistically and we cannot tell if they are narcissistic people and an addict or just narcissistic because of the addiction until in recovery so let's say someone is an alcoholic and they have stopped drinking for four months or three months and I've been working recovery program and if there still are narcissistic that means they both are narcissistic and addict but often or it may be over 50% of the time at least we find that some of the addicts behave narcissistically aren't really narcissistic some might even be codependent in recovery hmm okay okay now just to show you Ross that I was paying attention our next question from one of our participants is what makes a person codependent and I'm fairly sure correct me if I'm wrong I heard you say that a fear of being alone was it certainly a part of that if not the whole thing am i right um you are you are right and the question is very complicated what makes a person a codependent is a complicated experience of being a child to a narcissistic parent during which in their formative years they learned that the way they get attention is by loving everyone else for fear of being alone and so they learn really early on that they never get a chance to be loved unless they take care of someone else and that whole sacrificing template is brought into adulthood so that's kind of the beginning of codependency Wow so if I might be so bold it just calls to mind adult children of alcoholics does that mean that if you are an adult child of an alcoholic for example you would necessarily be codependent if you don't receive their beer I what it means is if you're an ace Toa or an ECA an adult child of an alcoholic it means that there's a high probability that you suffered as a child it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be a codependent but it can because there's different types of alcoholics there's mentally ill and Buse of alcoholics and then there's loving but harmful alcoholics and so what creates codependency is that early childhood experience were you felt only lovable when you sacrifice your own needs took care of others and that can happen if one of your Paris wasn't alcoholic that doesn't always okay great we I guess we better move on there's so many questions it's great I I want to be very appreciative towards the participants so could stage one take longer if the narcissist lives far away for example a Parenthood's in another state and only and you only see them a few times a year yes actually stage one stage one can take longer but it's not dependent on so much the narcissist is dependent on the codependence boundaries so for example if the narcissist was far away they said in three or four times they're still going to be connection with the nurses in between the physical visits there's going to me mails and phone calls and all of the progress that is still being made about someone's codependency but it is true that it takes longer when that the primary relationships or the partner is not around because you need time to practice and have experiences right okay great moving right along is it possible that the covert narcissist can recover as well as the codominant if he says he wants to UM everything is possible if you were motivated to be honest and open and do the psychotherapy it's my experience that covert narcissists who have a narcissistic personality disorder which by the way it's like one of my biggest viewed YouTube videos I think I've had eighty thousand views on that on that video covert narcissism they are manipulators they play a role and they are good at being the the sheep in the wolf's I mean though the wolf in the sheep's clothing they will tell you whatever you want in order to try to get you to be the person they need so you know so what really matters is what they do and typically they will not stay in therapy and they will only go just as far to try to get someone to believe they're gonna change hmm okay mentioned your YouTube channel Ross maybe when we're finished you can you can tell us how to find out okay okay okay great do you do offer weekend seminars for accelerated growth in now the person is in this area and I'm not sure what area that is so we're going to we're going to pass on that when I'm going to ask the person who asked that question to please define what area there's being about so is there a link between narcissism and BPD and co-dependent relationships absolutely in fact in my book I talk about emotional manipulators or the pathological narcissist and I include three disorders narcissistic personality disorder borderline personality disorder and antisocial personal disorder and addicts those three disorders are the most narcissistic of all disorders so there is a definite link between someone who is a borderline who is a pathological narcissist and and being in a relationship with a codependent we often see borderlines connected to codependency and relationships oh dear okay so just to be clear then BPD is borderline personality disorder yes that is correct okay thanks here's here's another question why do former codependence who have broken free of their narcissists still feel the need to go back and please the narcissist from time to time you know I often use potential recovery you know kind of analogous to you to addiction recovery so we look at the alcoholic we teach them that you're always in alcoholic and that you're always going to have moments of weakness where you're going to have cravings well in my recovery work I teach my codependent clients the similar concept that you're going to have moments of weakness where you're going to feel that you should go back to or a Qui to narcissists and that's part of the recovery process which is why therapy or 12-step groups and sponsors and other connections are so important to get past those bumps in the road hmm okay I have a question from someone about being married to a codependent for 20 years if that person is still with us if you have an actual question it's not stated as a question Ross so I think I'm going to go through the rest of the questions and swing back around to this one if they want to ask their question so how does a codependent know when they have reached a healthy place within their relationships particularly if they find value in being needed by the narcissist and so think those dynamics indicate a healthy relationship well it did it um well in my book I created a continuum of self theory where I talked about healthy individuals and healthy attraction and there are people who like to take care of others they're not codependence this is a healthy personality type and they tend to be connected to people who are more self centered and they're not necessarily narcissistic so my point is healthy people healthy opposites are attracted to each other but when we have a codependent who's in a recovery it moves through these four steps what happens is the relationship Falls a part of the narcissist doesn't work with them is similarly get help so the codependent is no longer tolerated narcissism they find it very disturbing upsetting and the relationships tend to fall apart hmm okay thank you here's another one what is different as in the presentation of someone with borderline personality disorder and codepen a codependent individual well these are complete different disorders I'm sorry can you say that again Ross there is a bit of a glitch in the eye oh yeah these are these oh that's much better codependency and borderline personality disorder are completely different I look at them as as one as being a disorder that is mostly narcissistic and one being it's sort of that is mostly codependent and they're not the same and codependence often are fall for someone who has borderline percent order because they stick around and they want to take care of that person who often hurts them and damages that later says they love them only the codependent seems capable of forgiving them over and over again and giving them another chance the two are opposite and and in my book I explain that in detail mm okay great okay here's a good one do your four stages of codependency recovery methodologies for a codependent who's been in a relationship with the narcissist for over 30 years take much much longer to realize recovery absolutely absolutely I talked about just just for a moment just stage zero and that's the stage that gets the person ready to do the work and that sometimes it's the longest stage where I I work with my client to build a courage to begin the upsetting boundaries and that takes sometimes anywhere from you know two months to a couple years hmm but once you are ready to the bad analogy pull the trigger oh no what you are ready to on to on to go through stage one it's not as long as you think because that's where everything kind of falls apart so that the lengthy particle test recovery is getting to stage one okay very good um oh my goodness we have so many we're gonna have to have you back here's one I believe I don't know they don't specify fits from a psychotherapist but here's the question what advice can be given for codependent psychotherapists working with narcissistic clients get into therapy i i'm i self him as a recovering codependent and i promised everyone out there that my skill level exponentially increase as i got healthier and move forward in my own code pension recovery a codependent who's a therapist doesn't even know what their blinded to was because because you can't see in other people what you can't recognize it yourself so working on yourself is the very best tool better than any training or any book out there and wonderful things will happen with your clinical work okay oh my goodness we've only got three minutes okay one more does trauma bonding play a role in the narcissistic co-dependent relationships to influence the codependent person to return to codependent behavior absolutely fact peppercorns were one of the best books of trauma bonding absolutely and and once we start talking about trauma bonding we start to go into deeper psychodynamic trauma concepts but it'll suffice to say that codependence and the narcissists play out the trauma they endured as a child and part of that attraction phenomenon that happens in the human Magnus Center really is a part of trauma bonding oh holy moly okay so did you mention a book Russ that talks about trauma bonding yes petra currents wrote the seminal book on trauma bonding okay you know what I think when we post the replay sorta interrupt but we've only got two minutes and one more questions what I'll do Ross is I'll ask you for that title later and we'll put that up with the video so people can access it along with the URL for your YouTube channel sounds good to me okey-dokey now let's see and I'll ask you maybe a few more questions offline so we can answer them at the YouTube channel one more from someone who's been waiting very patiently there's someone here who's talked about living with a codependent for over 20 years and that person passed away and I'm sorry I'm just trying to find the question bear with me okay I was so happily married to a codependent for 20 years before her death no now I am in a relationship with a recovered addict and feel so lonely at times and the question is seems like a come and go relationship can this work well I think I think the red flag is is a term recovered addict that is often used as some as a term inappropriately because there's no such thing of a recovered addict recovery as in codependency recovery is a lifelong process and there's no hot beginning at endpoint so if I can kind of stretch it out a little bit if this person feels recovered they mean they stopped doing their work in which which points to the improbability that this relationship will ever get healthy because recovery and I'm also assuming the person equal recovered addict is also nurse assistant now we don't know if that is more about the fact that they haven't worked a full scale addiction recovery program or they are both in an addict and narcissus mm-hmm okay likely that the relationship will persist ultimately Wow thank you thanks for us thanks so much and I'm seeing now that it's it's the end of our time so I think we're really going to have to hack for a return performance this was very very lots of interest in this topic thank you Ross so just before we wrap up then I'd like to remind everyone that the replay of tonight's webinar will be posted at psych Central's YouTube channel later this week and the address for that is on your screen right now and I'd like to thank everyone who attended live tonight and also to those of you who are listening to the replay I'd like to thank psych central of course for hosting and finally I left the best for last thank you so much Ross Ross rosenberg presenter psychotherapist and author that was terrific it really was a pleasure occu for inviting me oh you're very welcome I have to ask you my questions offline so on behalf of psych central comm and me Zoe Kessler thanks everyone forging us for tonight's webinar bye for now you

Channel: Ross Rosenberg

Views: 659,906

Keywords: codependency, codependency recovery, Codependency anonymous, Ross Rosenberg, Codependency Expert, codependency therapy, codependency counseling, codependency psychotherapy, psych central, relationship advice for codependents, identify codependency, dysfunctional relationship, codependent no more, codependency symptoms, relationship advice, codependency in relationships, codependency healing, healing codependency, help for codependency, how to overcome codependency, codependent

Id: mMPaKJfrZrA

Length: 60min 17sec (3617 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 31 2014