Class Tier Rankings for D&D 5e: Who is the best Negotiator?

this week's episode of our show has been sponsored by our very own Kickstarter project Sebastian Crow's guide to drakenheim Sebastian Crow's guide to drachenheim is going to introduce a ton of new player content as well as expanded lore on the world surrounding the city of drachenheim this book is perfect whether or not you backed our first Kickstarter because it is full of player focused content that can be used in any setting as well as great lore that you can use to inspire Adventures campaign ideas or even just rumors and stories in your own worlds we've spent the past couple of years play testing workshopping and developing a brand new class for fifth edition the Apothecary which is featured in this book The Apothecary is an occult magician that combines medical knowledge with Arcane magic using intelligence-based spell casting mechanics alongside interesting powers that let them harm and heal in equal measure we've also created brand new subclasses at least one for every core class in DND and on top of that all we've created a number of brand new spells that are available to all the classes but also all of them are available to the Apothecary and they focus on heightening the abilities of poison damage acid damage and necrotic damage in your games of DnD we've worked so hard on all the content in this next new book and we are so excited to share it with you if you'd like to get information on the kickstarter campaign and find out when you can start backing it follow the links in the description below and now under this week's episode greetings my name is Monty Martin and I'm Kelly McLaughlin and we are the dungeon dudes Welcome to our Channel where we cover everything DND including advice for players and guides for Dungeon Masters we upload new videos on Tuesdays and Thursdays so please subscribe to our channel so that you never miss an episode today we are continuing our class tier ranking Series in DND 5e and looking at which of the core classes in fifth edition makes for the best negotiator negotiators are deeply rooted in the social interaction pillar of play but this doesn't include role-playing everybody can role play really really well that doesn't make your character a great negotiator so we are looking for skills abilities and spells that the classes have access to that allow them to lean into the social interaction role to solve problems at the table social encounters can be tricky because they're usually non-combat encounters that have a little bit more of a interpersonal puzzle to them so an example of a social encounter might be something like the player characters need to negotiate an alliance or they might need to make a bargain or a deal with some sort of non-player character or Monster perhaps they have to convince a dragon who is too powerful for them to defeat in combat to leave The Village at peace the player characters might also want to defuse a hostile situation without Bloodshed so they want to talk to the NPCs and talk them down from their hostile State also negotiation could be manipulation this might be where something like using a spell to read somebody's mind or a spell for mind control or Charm might be very useful for negotiation purposes if you can convince the NPCs to do what you need them to do that in in a way is negotiation if you look on the screen right now you're gonna see the rankings that we use to determine who we think the best negotiator is Monty and I are only going to to award One S tier to the class that we think is the best so the S tier needs to be the best in the game regardless of how you build them meanwhile the a tier is one that's going to excel in this role pretty much no matter how you build them a b tier has many options to be really powerful in this role but you're going to have to build them to be good at it a c tier might have a few options but you're going to have to pick very specific subclasses spells or abilities in order to excel in the role and a d tier isn't going to have a lot of options available there might be one or two possible options but you really need to choose a very specific Avenue to be a good negotiator any class in the game can choose to not dump their Charisma score and grab Proficiency in Persuasion from their background because of this we need to set the bar a little bit higher than that for what makes someone a good negotiator because fundamentally any character can do that so with the negotiators and particular we're looking for classes that offer much more than just do you have a not negative Charisma score and Proficiency in the persuasion skill to give them a high ranking there's a lot to discuss today so let's get rolling so let's kick things off with the artificer I think that I have a couple points for the artificer but it's probably not enough to save them to make them a good negotiator these are Gruff mechanics not really negotiators I will say that there is a way to use some tool proficiency like a disguise kit and a forgery kit to help with negotiations but I think the artificer could help by using their tools but they're probably not the person doing the talking there's not really much to incentivize an artificer to invest in their Charisma score and while there are some spells and infusions that they can take like I mean anyone can always use enhanceability to give themselves advantage on Charisma checks so they do have options there but I still think that you're going uphill I think the question with the artificer is even if you took everything that the artificer possibly has to offer and really built an artificer to be a negotiator where's it going to land in in relation to your other abilities in relation to all of the other classes if we if we look at the Spectrum not high I feel like even if you did choose every option and spell that the artificer could possibly gain access to and there are a few I think that you would still end up with the struggle of your compromising your other strengths the whole time yeah so this is one of those cases where you could build an artificer to be a negotiator at the expense of the artificer's other competencies and you're not as good of a negotiator as you would have been if you had invested in what the artificer is great at yes and and so I think it's a d ranking I could see an argument for there being a c ranking but I do think that it is one of those cases where yeah you have to you have to actively make the character to do it an artificer could have a decent Charisma score by having it as their tertiary ability but even if you're doing Point by like it's going to be really hard to justify that it's really hard I think for any any of the intelligence-based spellcasters it's really a challenge to justify having that good Charisma score and we still well the skill isn't the be-all and end-all it's still the Baseline I feel like giving it a c acknowledges that there's at least something that you could do here but it really is borderline D for me because it very much comes with the expense of your other competencies I think it's a d ranking in my books but we can we can see CD yeah yeah Barbarian yeah um once again there are some Barbarian subclasses that might give you the ability to intimidate someone better yes and there are some Barbarian subclasses that might allow you to be a little bit of a leader or I don't think we've really seen a barbarianism class yet that really is like I would love to see a barbarian subclass that was like a scald that was like a barbarian Bard or a barbarian or something that really leaned into the Barbarian as the leader but I don't think we've seen that yet I love that Trope I think it's a great Trope I think that barbarians are really great for role playing a person who stands up at the front and is a leader to their people and can talk and negotiate and is political they just happen to be from a group of Warriors that are really muscly and scary and intimidating and like to smash things with axes but that is such an awesome Trope sadly I don't think it plays into the rules that we have no I think it's a real uphill struggle and once again like yeah sure your Barbarian could have a good Charisma score your Barbarian could take inspiring leader your Barbarian could take a feat to give them expertise and persuasion but fundamentally that's all you're going to have you might have some frightful presence stuff depending on what subclass you have I think it's mostly oriented in you still to be an intimidating and scary Warrior and not a smooth talker yeah and I think you know we're not talking about role play and I think again I love the Trope of the Barbarian who is like the noble Barbarian yeah but the way that the rules are going I think I have to give the Barbarian a d but a d doesn't mean there's no options it means that you could build it but again I think you're taking away from the strengths of the Barbarian by investing more into trying to make them charismatic and good at negotiating I really wish with the Barbarian it wasn't such a one-track class because in in so many ways the Barbarian has been given more skill proficiencies in fifth edition than ever before there are more flexibilities and options for the Barbarian in 5th edition compared to Prior Editions but it still feels like there needs to be a couple extra abilities Beyond just having skill proficiency that lets you define other ways your characters can be good at it would be really cool if there was some way that Charisma was a was a relevant stat for a barbarian to build their character because it feels like that should be something that exists but it doesn't I also feel like I want to say for The Barbarians that we've handed out a lot of D's for the Barbarian we have given them a few A's and they probably have a few more coming the Barbarian is amazing at what they're amazing at and I will say this as a statement I have seen countless Barbarians in our games not a single player who's played a barbarian has ever had a bad time playing one yeah they have some of the most fun at the table because if you are into the playstyle of the Barbarian you go in hard and you have so much fun doing it and you can role play you can you can challenge negotiations you can be stealthy if you really want to there are avenues for you to be the Barbarian you want to be it's just that when you are trying to Branch out from being the big meat Shield who smashes things with an ax you're actually taking away from what the Barbarian is best at in interesting ways and no matter what you're going to have fun playing a barbarian there's a very at my table right now who loves getting into combat encounters and every time they're in one they feel like the rock star and they are but it's just that I think as a barbarian player I don't know how you could ever play like feel like the rock star negotiator of your party unless somehow you are either the main character of The Campaign and the dungeon master was really feeding it to you yeah right also if you have a dungeon master who's really open to interpretation of is the player good at talking then I'm gonna get yeah and that's a tricky and that's really a tricky thing too because some players are not good at talking but want to play as a charismatic negotiator and we have to strike that middle ground because you know if you allow this the person who in real life is a smooth talker to always negotiate their way out of every situation even though they're playing the six Charisma graph dwarf Barbarian at whereas if you've got a player who is a little bit more reserved and they have decided I would like to play a Bard who has a 20 Charisma and take an expertise but yet they're not themselves in real life eloquent you have to meet that player halfway because they still are deserving of realizing that fantasy right and that's where we come to The Bard I think because we already have an example of how good the Bard can be The Bard is built to be The Negotiator there's no question about it and I don't think we're surprising anybody in this episode when I say that The Bard is my s-tier negotiator is it I think it's no contest you have Charisma as your spell casting ability so you're going to have you're going to blast your charisma up to 20 if you can plus five so already your persuasion deception and intimidation are going to be better than almost every other class in the table yeah not only that but you get expertise as a Bard yep bards get expertise that means they get to double their Proficiency in whatever skills they want to pick and as a Bard I'm picking persuasion deception or intimidation as one of those skills maybe even two so that's definitely going to be a choice and a lot of bards are going to go that route so you have you already are proficient in these skills you're going to have expertise and then to kick it all into 10th gear 10th gear sure you have spell casting full spellcaster full spell casting with the best selection of Enchantment illusion and other social interaction spells you can load up your Bard with a smorgasbord of the best social interaction spells from disguise self to detect thoughts to charm person to suggestion to dominate person you name it they got it and with within that if they're not going to listen to your honeyed words well you got the magic to get through too that's the thing though is that we don't want to look at a class and say well they got spells so they're the best in the game or well they have persuasion out the Wazoo so they're the best in the game but The Bard is both The Bard can approach a negotiation honestly and win yes or they can approach it from a spell casting manipulator standpoint and and win they could be the master of disguise they could be the master of deception they could be the most honest Bard in the world who only sings songs of Truth and Justice to convince people that what they are doing is just and right and they will they will win yep and then you can play an Elegance part and kick it up to 11th gear um or she'll really be good at it with almost any of the other barred subclasses because you also have bardic inspiration you can support your allies attempts at this as well um you can do all whether it's the glamor Bard with all their charms whether it's the lore bar just having that Smorgasbord of supplemental skills as well to just bolster that up or you know even at higher levels then you get spells like glibness which mean you can even lie through your teeth while someone is reading your thoughts and there's so many options there and I think what's really interesting about this is that even though a Bard has a rather narrow spell selection because they have to choose their spells known in my experience playing a bard you can basically load up on all the essential social interaction spells and you still have room in your spell selection for the combat spells that bars are good at like you can still you can take this guy's self and you can take suggestion and you can take dominate person but you still have space in Your Arsenal to take hypnotic pattern and healing word and fairy fire so it's interesting how The Bard's spell list is somehow less of a restriction that you actually expect it to be because even though they have a limited spells known they have to commit to commit to those spells known it just turns out that the best barred spells on The Bard spell list just happened to casually make them the best negotiators in the game while still giving them lots of tools to assist in other combat roles as we as we land on an S ranking for The Bard I think part of the reason for this is that as you look at all of their skills and spells there are 101 visible ways to talk your way into or out of any situation in the game and they're just front and center when you look at the bar it's just there so there's no doubt about it you have to try so hard to build a bar that is a bad negotiator that at their worst they're an a tier I feel like if you build your Bard to be a Healer or a battlefield controller or a support like if you build if you build your barn around support or utility or investigation you will still casually be better at negotiation than any other character could possibly be yeah now as we come to the cleric uh the cleric's an interesting one and I went back and forth a lot on this at first cleric wisdom-based spellcaster probably dumping Charisma maybe not dumping I'm gonna have insight and insight can be good negotiations Insight can be good and this is where I started to dial back they're also not only a full spell caster but they have the rare exception of being a full spellcaster who can change up their spell list on the fly so that if they are going into a negotiation situation they don't have to be like did I prepare the right spells they could if you have a person in prison that you're trying to talk to the Claire could take a rest take a bunch of mind reading divination zone of Truth sort of spells and come in packing heat yeah although I feel like a cleric is still driven more towards the interrogator role and so and that very much comes from the fact that spells like command spells like zone of truth and you have to look to the other cleric domains like particularly the knowledge domain the peace domain and the trickery domain before you start to Branch out in terms of those options interrogation is an important element of negotiation it's a it's a great scenario but I still feel like you do have to build the cleric that way I feel like you have to choose the domain you have to select the skills you have to select the abilities the options are there but if you don't choose them the clerk is kind of in the same boat as the artificer I think they got a little bit more flexibility there I think they have a lot more flexibility now I'm not giving them the highest ranking I'm going with a B because I think that they are buildable and the reason why they are above the artificials the artificer is a half caster yeah the half Caster thing makes a big difference and the the limitations on the infusions makes a big difference um I think clerics range from C to like I think that a lot of clerics on average are going to fall into the C range for negotiator but there is the potential to build them to be a good negotiator and I have seen the cleric be the face of the party in the right campaign so you know what I agree with you it's a b as you come to the Druid we're in a similar boat to the cleric with a wisdom-based spellcaster but I personally feel like their spell list doesn't have as many options as the cleric speak with animals they're asked here at negotiating with plants and animals yeah that's we yeah yeah okay we put that though into an exploration and investigation they're really good I think it's a stretch at this point it's a stress yeah I think they're not without their merits they're not as bad as some of the other classes I think think I'm feeling a c ranking for the Druid yeah I am too I think it I think it's an upward struggle once again Druids have even less of a reason to invest in their Charisma scores by and large I think that there are some spells there but I think that you would really struggle to be the primary negotiator of your party with the druid yeah carrying on with the fighter I think uh we've said this a lot like other than a fighter who I think again there's a cool Trope of being the commander fighter who takes a bit of Charisma proficiency and persuasion and hey look at you you're the commander fighter you can build a fighter to be a negotiator kind of but you're still only a mid-range negotiator and I don't think the the class presents that no and I mean we have seen things like there are now Battle Master Maneuvers that you can use to add to persuasion checks and you could get persuasion as a skill there are several subclasses that give you some attributes in the this respect but we're very far away from being able to make a fighter that is anywhere close to even I think what Claire can do I agree right like like I think that even if you took like even if you want to go oh I'm going to build The Negotiator Battle Master or I'm going to play that purple dragon knight and I'm going to make my Charisma my my highest or my second highest ability score I like even if you took every possible thing that you could take to be The Negotiator as the fighter it still comes up short well okay let's be real here real talk your best Avenue to be a negotiator fighter is choosing Purple Dragon Knight and now you've already made the worst choice you can make as a fighter take that purple dragon knight I mean I guess maybe the samurai might have some options and and I think even the Rune night like there's there's possibilities like they wizard of the coast has done a better job of injecting like a little handout but a little handout is not is enough to like the handouts that the fighter class gets let them participate in the social network participation yes they get a participation ribbon it's not like they're going to be leading the charge in this case are they participatory enough to Warrant a c or do you think it's a d I think that the participation ribbons will let you dig your way out of the D ranking but overall the class is a d yeah I think that we we put them in the same boat as the Barbarian and the artificer where it's like you could find a way but it's not what they're built and it's going to be at the expense of this the things that you can build the strengths that's the problem right is that if you want to choose the options that do make you good like yeah you could load up on you could take all your extra fighter Feats and invest those into actor and you can take actor and you could take Charisma boost so you could get Fey touched or something and stuff like that but that's all coming at the expense of being being good at what a fighter does and that could still be an interesting and fun character but even if you do all that you're just you're not even nearly as good as what the bar gets for just showing up yeah if you build your fighter very purposely to be The Negotiator fighter and somebody else brought an average Bard you're gonna feel sad actually I think it's I think if you build a fighter to be a Bard and The Bard player built their Bard to be a fighter by being like a swords Bard or a Valor bard they're probably gonna have the stronger overall character than you now I don't want to glaze over the Monk but I feel like everything that I just said for the fighter applies for the monk as well there's participation ribbon class features but a participation ribbon doesn't really pull you out of the DT ranking it just lets you participate I'm gonna say the same thing I said for barbarian a lot among players I've seen at my table they all have fun playing it they're never really the one doing the talking I played a monk I tried to do the talking but every time you were like give me a persuasion roll and I'm like I've been talking too much and now I'm you have to make sure and now it's gonna it's gonna fail because I have like a plus one yeah and I'm a fan of like giving the players the opportunity to make group checks so that these participation things can be a meaningful part of the negotiation experience but ultimately if you're talking about who is making the actual like high-end roles on the difficult roles and the difficult social interactions the Monk's just not going to be the one to do it ever as we move on to the Paladin this is another one where I actually went back and forth on whether I was going to rank yeah high or middle a high ranking for a paladin I think is justified by the fact that paladins do have some spells that they mostly pilfer from the cleric spell list but unlike clerics paladins have Charisma as their spell casting ability and they're encouraged to have a high Charisma score because they have so many other class features that rely on it beyond that Paladin doesn't actually get that much that actually augments their ability and there's the classic Trope of the Paladin having to be the honest one that is a Trope and not all paladins are nice people let's be real here and especially in fifth edition you don't get to be lawful good all the time Paladin is interesting and kind of a confusing one to rank for me because having played a paladin you are never not going to be okay at negotiation you're never bad you're never bad at it you have Charisma therefore you're probably going to have persuasion my paladins all have had persuasion of some sort it's never been that high like it's been like a plus four or plus five yeah they don't have expertise so they can't match The Bard they can't even really match uh we're gonna get to the Rogue but they can't match the road because expertise is so cool the Paladin has the benefit of always being good but nothing in their class except for a few minor features to specific subclasses push them Beyond being naturally good I think I'm I wanted to give them an a but I'm ready to hear you possibly say that a is too high I mean this is I think the Dilemma for me because I feel like the Paladin is like the step down from The Bard it's like The Bard comes ready made with everything you need to succeed and with the Paladin everything you need to be a decent negotiator is there it's just you're not as incentivized to take your charisma to the maximum unless you're doing some sort of tricky build by multi-classing the hex blade you don't have any access natively to expertise or any other sort of those cheaty features that let you get a bonus there are Oaths like the oath of redemption for example gives you the option to be really good because that actually has a channel Divinity and a power that gives you a real bonus to your persuasion check roles and the skill checks and there are spells on the paladin spell list that will help you out with these things at the end of the day though I feel like it hits a mid-range and I think that every Paladin gets a b as a negotiator just for showing up but if you're actually going to try to build your Paladin to be better than that I think it's hard I actually do as I've been saying this I had a written down initially uh just because I was like yeah I played a paladin they were the face of the party and of course they were the face of the party yeah even though we were in the party with a Bard but I I just tend to be the player who loves social interactions exactly right so that's my fault because most of the people at the table Joe was playing The Bard I was playing the Paladin like I don't know we had this one two punch sort of it's the two faces of the party with the comic relief and the serious one and we went back and forth yeah but at the end of the day that's just because I love playing a charismatic character that's not because the Paladin was doing me any favors other than being naturally charismatic can they be the face of the party yes is The Negotiator necessarily the face of the party no it's something a little bit different and I don't think the Paladin actually has a lot of tools so I'm willing to lower my rank into a b my I think you would not be wrong to give the Paladin an a but it's a low a or high B yeah it's it's really it's really tough to land with the Paladin because naturally good but not inherently great yeah it's just this the ceiling the ceiling is lower it's like the floor is higher the ceiling is lower so like all paladins are going to be good at negotiation but you really have to choose the right spells and I think subclass to be great at it yeah and as we come to the Ranger uh Rangers I mean again take all the things I said about the fighter and the Monk and apply them to the ranger the ranger has some spell casting not a lot of those spells are designed to help you in social situations they're explorers they're good infiltrators they're good at navigating they're good at hunting monsters these are all things that the ranger is really good at most Rangers I see at my table are Gruff Woodsman they do get some advantages with regards to favorite enemies and stuff like that but it's a real stretch I I think I gotta give them a D in the same way I gave the other classes a d we could sit here all day and say what if you built a ranger that took XYZ yeah but once again it's going to come at the expense of their of the things that they could be actually good at and I think that that's where where we see a lot of these characters where the classes that we're giving the d-rank negotiators to the reason for this is not that they they really can't do it ever it's that you're gonna have to give up a lot from your character's primary from the things that your character could succeed at in a primary capacity to gain this only at a secondary level at best when we look at the ranger the the areas that we gave that we would give a ranger an A in you might actually be pulling those down by raising your negotiation to a b yeah as we come to the Rogue this is an interesting one and this has been a big heated topic the Rogues have been a point of contention all through this ranking series because I think the through line for the Rogue in general has been that the Rogues are great at skills they're one of the only characters in the game that can get expertise in these tools they get expertise before anyone else and they get a lot of skill proficiencies but they don't necessarily have the spell casting and the other features to support those skills so they're relying entirely on those skills and that makes them really good degrade but not necessarily top tier I think that this is the thing that was the Rogues are are really good in a lot of categories and I actually think negotiation is surprisingly one of them not necessarily because they have the best Charisma because they're not going to but if you look through the subclasses present it to the Rogue there's more than one that kind of wink wink nudge nudges and says Charisma shouldn't be your dump stat it should be a middle tier stat I mean as soon as you play an Arcane trickster or a swashbuckler you immediately start having features that really support that I think you see a lot of Rogue subclasses that immediately start bringing in some sort of social negotiation feature in into it I think that the best two Rogue subclasses the swashbuckler and the Arcane trickster can absolutely be played as negotiators you can invest in your charisma score which is odd because an Arcane trickster is an intelligence-based Caster but you actually don't need a good intelligence score for an Arcane trickster and it actually the total thing is weird to me should the Arcane trickster be in a Charisma based spellcaster if I would like it more I would too but I feel like the Arcane trickster even just getting in the door with a middling Charisma score and getting expertise in a bunch of the social skills taking charm person taking suggestion taking detect thoughts is one of their alternates they actually have a lot of great options for how they they do that and they're going to excel I think that access to expertise is a huge Boon in any class for being able to be good at at the social pillar yeah because I think one of the things and this is actually one of the things we can talk about with the BART is that with interactions so often here's the one that prompts this check the dungeon master is going to be like ah interesting you said that give me a persuasion check and so oftentimes you don't necessarily have the ability to react with a spell um so you can't like all of a sudden be like oh the dungeon master just asked me for a Charisma check so does that mean that I can stop everything now and cast charm person or guidance earns like no I've asked you for the check now those spells aren't reactions the other inherently good thing that Rogues get that really is very specific to the Rogue is that 10th level they get that reliable Talent which means if you've taken expertise in Persuasion or deception you have a plus I mean my rogue right now at 11th level has a plus 13. to stealth to stealth If instead of stealth I decided that I wanted to go the route of charisma and even my Charisma I think I have a plus seven or eight or nine right now in in Persuasion um and I can't roll lower than a 10 because I have proficiency and persuasion and then with the bonus you're always making 19. 19 is my lowest persuasion role and incidentally barge don't get a feature like that unless they're casting the glibness spell which is an eighth level spell or you're an eloquence Bard yeah um and so I think that that is a really interesting Dimension it is a 10th level feature so it's pretty late but it makes the Rogue really reliable as a negotiator not only that but I mentioned that the artificer got a little thumbs up because of access to something like the disguise kit or yeah and the Rogue also has access to a lot of great tools and if you take the charlatan background which is very fitting on a rogue you get the disguise kit and is it the forgery kit you get the disguise kit and I think that a rogue makes a great Master of Disguise manipulator charismatic can't roll lower than a 10 on their persuasion or deception depending on the way you go and can take expertise I'm willing to give the Rogan a yeah and and at the end of the day I think one of the big things that undoes The Bard in social interactions is there is a case that goes sometimes you're in a social interaction and you don't have the opportunity to cast a spell because of the people that you are talking with see you cast a spell they're going to be like why are we're just having a conversation what are you doing casting spells on me and that totally souers the negotiation at that point it's different I think of course if you're doing something like detect thoughts or using a spell like enhanceability but if you're casting a spell on someone else it can sour it yeah so yeah I think I can confidently give the Rogue an a now it's interesting that you brought up how spell casting is a very visible element because as we come to the sorcerer the sorcerer has the ability to take subtle spell and can suddenly cast their spells in the middle of negotiations I think this makes them an automatic a I agree the sorcerer full spellcaster Charisma based they have a lot going for them again I'm playing a sorcerer who has deception and persuasion I believe and now I finally have subtle spell I mean I guess the argument is is that because you have to choose subtle spell it is the definition of b that you have to choose it as your meta Magic good meta-magic even if you don't take subtle spell the sorcerers still land in a really safe space because they are designed to be really good at Charisma and they have access to full spell casting so you're going to end up with a few spells that can be used for manipulation I think I believe the existence of metamatic adept which lets you choose two extra meta Magics really makes the choice of packing subtle spell a lot easier for all Sorcerers yeah because I think every Source right now is just going to want to take like two extra meta Magics it's amazing his feet so the yes technically you have to build for subtle spell but it's sticking right out there yeah it's there yeah your spell casting's there your charisma's there your proficiencies are there everything's there to make you good at negotiating and I don't think yes you have to build for it but as opposed to being like how am I going to build this sorcerer to be a good negotiator it you just look at the Sorcerer And you go oh oh I can be a good negotiator and you have a much more restricted spell list but interestingly enough the Clockwork Soul has one of those abilities that lets them make turn a role into a 10. so they kind of have a cheaty way to get reliable Talent yeah that's one subclass yeah but yeah and but but even um uh even the average mind also really solves the spell selection issue too yeah and the Everett mind actually has the subtle spell thing built in yeah to them as uh as one of the features for their spells so no I think the sorcerer is a solid a and in the same token I think the Warlock is too I think with the Warlock having access to invocations the charisma-based spellcaster they have a very tricky spell list yeah so they're a little bit more the maniacal manipulator and they can be we've seen it on our table just like the bar they can be the master of disguise really really well mask of many faces is a great choice if you want to play The Negotiator Bard and they have access to charm illusion enchantments all all the fun stuff so I think that they're in a as well yeah and I think that when we look at all these classes that we've got an A2 part of the reason why the bar becomes the S is because the Bard takes the best elements of the Rogue the Warlock and the Sorcerer in terms of all of the social interaction stuff and just has it the the Warlock and the Sorcerer And the Rogue have their own little secret weapons like reliable Talent OR subtle spell but The Bard is kind of getting the big picture of the whole thing yeah the wizard The Wizard interestingly enough I give a lot of praise to the wizard in most cases because they have the an extensive spell list and really you can build your wizard to do whatever you want but I don't think they have as much going for them as the sorcerer the Warlock the Rogue or The Bard no it's because they're an intelligence-based spellcaster and unlike the artificer they have a much wider range of Enchantment and illusion spells to select from but here's the thing I think with the wizard and this is why I'm more inclined to give them a lower ranking the Wizards spells in terms of social interaction and negotiation Drive the wizard towards a manipulator or a spy so the wizard can sit back and cast a tech magic well The Bard is talking to somebody else while they've got enhanceability up on themselves but the the wizard in that role is participating in the negotiation but is still kind of not the primary like they're they're there for a different purpose the wizard could cast suggestion on somebody but that is a Brute Force technique for negotiation and while that's very powerful there's a lot of times where you need to negotiate in good faith and you can't just cast suggestion on somebody The Wizard and I don't care if you hate the sequel trilogy but the wizard is kylo Ren grabbing into the mind of Rey being like I'm gonna find the information I need yeah which doesn't feel like a good negotiation no no it's not you leave that negotiation being like wow that guy was a jerk yeah and so the the Wizards Brute Force technique for negotiation and it's worth noting that The Bard Sorcerer And warlock all could do this too it's just that if the Bard Sorcerer And warlock need to fall back on being on making a good persuasion role they can the wizard is not gonna be able to do that no so I think I'm gonna give the wizard a c and I'm gonna give them a decency because they have access to a great spell list so if you decide that you want to be the Brute Force negotiator you can be divination Wizards have a lot of ways to gain insight and Intel to better talk to somebody and really if we want to give the wizard an extra point depending on how your dungeon master rules this knowledge based skills could potentially be useful in a negotiation yes they could but I feel like again it's one of those group check scenarios where I really like devising negotiation scenarios where the players have to kind of Hit the three pillars of argument like they have to do an emotional argument an intellectual argument and an ethical argument right um it's like the logos ethos pathos style of argumentation and so that that's where the wizard has the opportunity to beat the logos and to say like yes here's my logical argument but again you can't win an argument through logic you can't reason someone into a position that they didn't reason someone out of the position they didn't reason themselves into and yeah if facts were all you needed to convince people of your point of view things would be great but they're done so so the Wizard's a c and you can do it you can build a decent uh negotiator wizard but it's not their Forte the way the charisma-based classes are so up on screen right now you're going to see Monty and my final rankings a few disagreements and a few times we persuaded each other of our rankings but all in all there are some obvious winners here and I think as we move on to the uh Community votes on who they thought the best negotiator was it's pretty clear that the votes are basically in line with our Viewpoint that's the biggest Landslide ever but I think that when we look when we look at this Bard definitely is the winner though 100 no questions but we should note that the sorcerer the Warlock and the Paladin all got a decent chunk of votes the Rogue comes in fifth place which it's actually interesting because I think the Rogue for me might be higher than the Paladin in some cases although again this is the thing is I think the floor and ceiling of the Rogue is much faster so they can be lower than the Paladin but they can be higher than the power because the thing is is that most Rogues when they choose their first two expertise they choose stealth and thieves tools or stealth and acrobatics then the next time they get expertise maybe they choose deception or perception or investigation I've seen a lot of Rogues that dump their Charisma and don't bother with the Charisma skills at all and I think that that's in a lot of people's minds and I think this is why like I gave we gave the Rogan a and I think we're being pretty gracious there because I actually think that there's a lot of times that you can build a rogue that isn't a good negotiator yeah but all the pieces are there yeah and so so I do actually I fully agree with the way the community voted here I think they nailed it so this has been a look at who the best negotiator in Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition tell us your thoughts on who the best negotiator in the game is in the comments below we have an amazing patreon community that helps make all the work we do here on YouTube possible you enjoy the work that we do here on YouTube please consider joining that Community by following the links in the description below and if you want to see me trying to be a negotiator as both a rogue and a sorcerer you can check out our live play in the worlds of drachenheim which shows Tuesday evenings on Twitch you can find all the previous episodes right up over here Andy got plenty more tier ranking videos for all the classes and subclasses in d5e right up over here please subscribe to our channel so that you never miss an episode thanks so much for watching we'll see you next time in the dungeon

Channel: Dungeon Dudes

Views: 66,595

Keywords: dungeons, dragons, tabletop, gaming, roleplaying, games, accessories, rules, rule, gameplay, play, game, rpg, d20, player, character, D&D, 5e, DM, PC, tips, advice, guide, guides, review, dice, books, book

Id: OR-NIZIN79I

Length: 45min 9sec (2709 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 04 2022