Christopher Hitchens Debates Al Sharpton - New York Public

fora tv' the world is thinking and now to tonight's Smackdown Christopher Hitchens and Al Sharpton as you know Hitchens book now out 126 hours I believe is ranked third on Amazon it has a benign title which wouldn't attract anybody God is not great how religion poisons everything I was told that when Al Sharpton heard the title for the first time God is not great he said says who to serve as umpire and referee I have asked Jacob Weisberg the editor of slate the free online daily magazine offering analysis and commentary about politics news and culture to welcome on the stage Christopher Hitchens and Al Sharpton I would also like to very quickly thank not also only Jacob Weisberg but Carrie Goldstein I worked with Carrie the last time to bring to this library John Hope Franklin and President Clinton and now it is my great pleasure to welcome Jacob Weisberg who will serve as umpire and referee and Christopher Hitchens and the Reverend Al Sharpton [Music] I would I feel good I knew that I wouldn't [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] the entry music is always terrific I'm honored to be doing the officiating this evening thank you Paul for the introduction I will be doing the referee's honours without a striped jersey or whistle or red cards or flags because these two gentlemen in addition to being are among our most formidable debaters you may see in reverend sharpton debate already you may not have seen Christopher Hitchens debate our our gentlemen and I know it will be very simple to each other although I think are the well I won't hold you back the our format tonight Christopher is going to start out with a statement of some of the ideas in his book for about five minutes Reverend Sharpton a chance to respond for about the same length of time should they need any prodding which I seriously doubt I will provide it and we will go back and forth for about an hour and then we'll have some time for questions for about 20 minutes or so before we wrap up well we'll go to questions I think as soon as the debate flags to start with the brief introductions in this corner Christopher Hitchens I would I would call him the devil's advocate in this debate but he has actually played that role if you read his book he recounts the story of when he was invited to the Vatican to argue pro bono I believe against sainthood for mother Teresa and of course that to hold back all bad words to call him devil's advocate this probably doesn't do him justice because too many people he actually is the devil left because of his views about God than because of his views on the Iraq war which we may or may not get into this evening he is the author of I believe 18 books including monographs on the subjects of Thomas Paine Thomas Jefferson and George Orwell a book on anglo-american relations I won't go through that all of them here but several of them collect his literary and political essays which you can read among other places in Vanity Fair slate and the Atlantic last week he won yet another National Magazine Award for columns and commentary in this corner Reverend Al Sharpton he is a Pentecostal minister a civil rights activist and as you know a formal performer presidential candidate he also has a radio talk show on which Don Imus recently appeared so unsuccessfully unlike Christopher Hitchens he is a man of God he was ordained as a minister at the age of nine is that correct he grew up in Brooklyn and Queens he has led protests he led a protest in Vieques in Puerto Rico which led to the closing of the American naval base there he led the protests after the killing of amadou diallo by the New York City police the police he is I should say a leader in the campaign to eliminate homophobia in the black church and he ran for the Senate in 1988 1992 in 1994 he ran for mayor of New York in 1997 and he ran for president in 2004 making I should say the Democratic Reimer is infinitely more interesting they would have been otherwise and probably more interesting than they will be at this time without him Christopher I would like to start with you what have you got against God good grief so I had to come carry something on me that as you were being ordained when I was nine I was just getting out of there completely it was nine when I thought I saw through it when my my biology teacher told me that God was so good as to have made vegetation green because it was the color most restful to our eyes and I thought mrs. Watts this is nonsense I knew nothing about chlorophyll or photosynthesis nothing about the theory of evolution nothing about adaptation nothing else thought I just knew she got everything all wrong and of course the argument against faith against religion falls into two central halves not necessarily congruent but I believe comprehend the first is it's not true religion comes from the infancy of our species I won't say race because I don't think our species is subdivided by races infancy of our species when we didn't know that the earth went around the Sun we didn't know that germs cause disease we didn't know when we were told in Genesis you'll give him dominion over all creatures that this did not include microorganisms because we didn't know they were there so you didn't know they had dominion over us when diseases broke out it was blamed on wickedness or sometimes on the Jews or if it was by Jews on the Amalekites or as as you will we didn't know anything about the the nature of the Earth's crust I was cooling earthquake storms all of this were a mystery well we are at least to that extent of reasoning species even a conspiracy theory is often better than no theory at all the mind searches for form we're now stuck with the forms that we found in our infancy you know in our primitive barbaric past well that could be fine still no nation can be with our mythology or myth or legend and there are people who say well it's not exactly true if virgins don't conceive okay bushes during burn forever or the white that would be so impressive I've never understood it Jade men don't walk and so on it's okay it's not really true it does come from a rather fearful period of the dark ages but at least it's nice to believe it it teaches good precepts this I think is very radically untrue I've given my book the example which I'll give you now of person very much influential on my youth and I know on the reference to dr. Martin Luther King my friend Taylor branch's book about dr. King I would rather call him doctor than Reverend because I'm sorry to say I think it's a higher title of honor Taylor branch's trilogy about him is called parting the waters the pillar of fire and at Jordans edge and everybody literate here knows the story of Exodus and understands what God meant when he demanded that his people be free of bondage but if you think about it for a second it's a very good thing that the good doctor was only using this metaphorically if he's really been invoking the lessons of Genesis and Exodus he would have been saying that his people have the right to kill anyone who stood in their way to exterminate all other tribes to mutilate their children's genitalia to make slaves of those they captured to take the land and property of others to engage in rather long and hideous and elaborate arguments about ox goring and finally which is this the sentence that ends that or the verse that ends in that section of the book should not suffer a witch to live the warrant for witch burning in other words in these books there are the warrants for genocide for slavery for the torture of children for disobedience for genital mutilation for annexation for rape and all the rest of it but it's a very good thing that this is man-made there are those who say that they wish they could believe and I suppose a decent atheist could say that if only for lack of evidence he wishes he or she could I can't be among their number I'm very it is not true that there is a permanent unshakeable unchallengeable celestial supervision a divine North Korea in which no privacy no Liberty is possible from the moment of conception not just till the moment of death but until well after I've been to North Korea and now I know what a prayerful state would look like I know what it would be like to praise God from the dawn or dusk I've seen it happen and it's the most disgusting and depressing and pointless and soulless thing you can picture but at least with North Korea you can die and you can leave Christianity won't let you do that as I mentioned and I'll think about the Old Testament the Old Testament may have and/or any Jews and Christians who like it may like this too they may have genocide rape racism all the rest of the things I've mentioned but it never mentions punishment of the Dead when you're done when you're in the mass grave into which you've been thrown as an Amalekite it's over not until gentle Jesus meek and mild is the concept of Hell introduced eternal torture eternal punishment for you and all your family for the smallest transgression I have no hesitation in saying which is a wicked belief I've also noticed addition is saying and I mustn't trespass on the reference time that we don't need it in two senses one is it's wicked to we have and always have had a much superior tradition we we we know that Democritus and Epicurus worked out in Asian death as the world was made of Earth of atoms though the gods did not exist and certainly took no interest in human affairs and would be foolish to do so and would be wicked if they did we have the tradition that brings us through Galileo and Spinoza and Thomas Paine and Voltaire and Thomas Jefferson and Bertrand Russell and Albert Einstein men of great wisdom and insight by all means struck by the awe-inspiring character of our universe by all means open to devotional music and architecture and poetry bold means aware of the transcendent but look through the Hubble telescope if you want to see something that is awe-inspiring don't look to blood-stained old myths now why now why am I doing this now people ask well I'll tell you why now because in the last few years it's become impossible to turn a page or a newspaper without being as the religious would say offended in other words I don't think I sound self pity if I say that I'm offended but a cartoonist in a tiny democratic country in Scandinavia genlock can't do his job without a death threat and that no American magazine or newspaper would reprint those cartoons either to elucidate the question or in solidarity I'm offended that civil society in Iraq is being destroyed leveled by the parties of God I'm offended the people in this country believe that they have the right to advocate the teaching of garbage to children under the fatuous name of intelligent design I believe that where I thought you'd never crap justice I believe that where religion ends philosophy begins where alchemy ends chemistry begins where astrology ends astronomy begins so now what the people will say well let's give equal time to astrology in the schools it's nonsense dangerous and sinister and nonsense the Pope says aids may be bad but condoms are much worse what kind of moral teaching is this and how many people are gonna die for such dogma you see what I mean I just I'll be very brief that's an end to this and then particularly to the cultural cringe that says if someone can claim to be a religious spokesman they are entitled to respect I have to say it in your presence sir I think that the title Reverend is something people would should be more concerned to live down than to live up to thank you we will get them back with some of that but Reverend Sharpton in your rebuttal would you take a moment to correct Christopher on his misconception that religion was somehow incidental to the civil rights movement that's all you want me to remove no well first of all let me thank you for inviting me and to have this debate it is first time in my long career that I was not assumed to be the devil in a debate it's an unusual place for me on the stage so I couldn't turn down representing God and the divine in a public encounter but I think that several things everybody would brother Hitchens says you don't have a problem with living up or down to being brother do I think that I made a very interesting analysis of how people use or misuse God but you made no argument about God himself and by attacking the quote wicked unquote use of God does not at all address the existence of God or non-existence of God we are sitting in a room that because of lights we assume that there is electricity in the building electricity can light up a room or burn it down it does not mean electricity does not exist because it burns the building down or that it is inherently wicked it is how people use it so clearly people have misused God as they've misuse other things that are possibly positive but its existence is not in any way proven or disproven by you giving the a long diatribe on those that have mishandled and misused God because there are many that you can cite that have acted in a way that shows the goodness of God your book God is not great could be refuted by many of that feel he is great or she is great whatever where you relate to God science to me does not wipe away the existence of God because science had to start somewhere so to pick up mankind in its evolving state does not tell me where mankind began how it became a long story of ordered steps who ordered them why do things follow such a natural progression who set the progress and in fact even the term wicked if there is no God and if there is no supreme mechanism that governs the world what makes right right on what makes wrong wrong why don't we just go by whoever's the strongest at any given period in history because nothing is wicked because whoever's in power at the time would determine what is wicked and what is not wicked because there's no real moral code because there's nobody to judge that so at one hand we're gonna argue God doesn't exist that the other hand was gonna call people wicked wicked according to WHO and according to what it would be based on whoever has the power at that times I think that the real thing that I'm interested in mr. Hitchens is to really discuss the idea of God and the idea of a Supreme Being and how creatures and creation have just by some great coincidence an unexplained scheme follows some order that just happened by itself something some force some overruling our force had to set all of that pattern in and it continues thousands of years later can you give a million examples of where people have misused that where they've distorted it where in the name of God on North Korea or other tragedies have happened yes terms of the civil rights movement it was apps lutely fueled by a belief in God and a belief in right or wrong and had not there been this belief that there was a right and a wrong civil rights movement that you are alluded to or that you referred to would not have existed because what made it wrong for people to be slaves what made it wrong for humans to be treated unequally because there was nobody to say that they were all equal it was whoever had the strength but at the end what is refreshing is that you are a man of faith because any man that at this date still has faith in their weapons of mass destruction in Iraq has more faith than any religious person I know generous response if I take it in reverse order the the belief of the weapons of mass destruction will roll on the conviction yes as I was saying was interested in weapons of mass destruction you could decide I suppose described as an argument from design in other words he had them before he'd known how to conceal them he'd used them several times he was seems to be prepared to risk his entire political career on the idea of reacquiring them I would say that was not a belief that had no evidence and I would say that anyone who treated him as if he was innocent on the subject would be a SAP actually would be my short word for it second on the civil rights movement you I expected you to be more assertive heed we I don't know what dr. king's private convictions about religion were I know that he studied Hegel I know that he studied Marx I know that among his very close entourage were a large number of secular socialists and communists you know their names - Stanley Levinson is probably the best-known but among the black civil rights leadership Bayard Rustin secular socialists philip Randolph secular socialist trade union leader these were the building blocks for the march on Washington as was Victor Roy if there are many others I'd the belief that it is illegal as well as evil to keep black Americans in subjection does not require any supernatural endorsement it had been proved repeatedly in law and in morality and in ethics and demonstrated in practice the only thing that has that always been consistently justified by the churches was initially slavery the right to hold someone as a slave biblically warranted and the right to keep the races separate which is endorsed by a church that's just to give a contemporary example one of the current candidates for the Republican nomination is a member of a church the so called Mormon Church of Latter day Saints that until 1965 had it as an article of faith that the Bible separates the sons of ham and makes them lesser oh I don't have to display it to checks like that because I don't think it has any authority so I you know since I returned the question to you now I didn't say that God was misused I hope I didn't I wasn't so poorly understood by everybody I said that the idea of God is a dictatorial one to begin with the belief in a supreme eternal invigilator creator who knows what you think and what you do and cares about it will reward or punish you and watches you while you sleep is I think the horrific belief a man-made one fortunately I'm very glad there's no evidence for it let me in case I was misunderstood let me assert again I think it's innately an awful belief however the cleverest theologian and have been some has never been able to demonstrate that such a person exists it's impossible to do so it's not possible either for me to demonstrate conclusively that no such person exists that cannot be done either but one thing can be done a person who claims not to know only that this person exists the task beyond our brain but to claim to know his or her accept your correction or over mind to say I know because I'm in Holy Orders what this entity wants you to do what he wants you to eat who he wants you to go to bed with and how he wants you to go there with him what you may read in what what Association is in private you may form what thoughts you may have that person is out of the argument now it seems to me we know that no one knows that so the claim made by the religious that they know God they know his mind and they can tell us what to do his name is I think they exploded further it is not argued by my side if a rebel by no one I know on it that the our presence here on the planet is something that is susceptible of a smooth logical reasonable explanation to the contrary we we are still very much in doubt as to precisely how we came to be human and to separate ourselves from some of our common ancestors and we also know that of the species that have been on this small planet in this tiny solar system since the beginning of measurable time of the number that have were ever in existence more than ninety eight point nine percent have become extinct a certain solipsism I think is required to believe that the we as a result all species are somehow the center of the created cosmos it would this is not modesty as the Christians call it it's not humility it's an unbelievably arrogant claim to make but at least it makes up for the other claim we're supposed to put up with which as well yes but we're also miserable sinners conceived in filth and doomed to object ourselves both of these positions are too extreme too strenuous to fanatical both of them reinforce each other in unpleasant ways and both should be outgrown by us voila well I think you probably had I think you probably had a bad Sunday school teaching because a lot of what you're saying is based on dogma and has nothing to do with one's belief in a Supreme Being you're discussing again religions dogmas denominations not the existence or non-existence of God I'm glad to hear you can see you can't prove he or she doesn't exist anymore than you claim that those that believe or the devil which is what you choose but I think that again the basic core question of God goes way beyond any example no matter how witty or humorous of those that come in God's name because it is the dictates of denominations or organized religious groups that tell you what to eat and what to wear and who does sleeping and all that that has nothing to do with the existence of an order to the universe that is clear and evident that science I think confirms that it evolved from somewhere that's I relate to God to your point however since I wasn't assertive enough in the first going forward and I think one guy said that the other night in Vegas and Mayweather got more assertive he won the fight so watch out on that but I'll get a little more certain dr. King's organization of brother Hitchens name was the Southern Christian Leadership Conference so there's no question that he himself saw that the basis of the movement was God based did he have some socialists that did not believe in God that associated with the movement absolutely but they joined SCLC's endeavors after SCLC was formed in fact SCLC was formed in 1957 in New Orleans before many of their all that organized the march on Washington when by Rustin who I knew went down south his problem was he debated a lot with the ministers there who was the core of that group so to try and secularize the civil rights movement is just totally inaccurate it was a church based faith-based movement there's no question about that and dr. King before way before he studied Hegel and and the rest he grew up in Ebenezer Baptist Church was an ordained minister first went to Morehouse then crows the Theological Seminary then went to Boston to study those that you have have referred to so let's not reinvent dr. King any more than we try to reduce God to some denominational convention and as for the one Mormon running for office those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway so don't worry about that that's a temporary that's a temporary situation but I think the core the core challenge that that that I would have is that I would say to you that if if your argument is that there are those that have used religion as in slavery or as even today to oppress people and use religion to be unfair to people or have misinterpreted scriptures you would get no debate for me I think that is a fact of history and one that many of us have had to fight against that still does not disqualify God any more than using anything in nature that is wrong to say that one eats food that is poisoned does not mean one should therefore starve because food is inherently bad that I think you're confusing the misuse of religion with the existence of God their goals that have no religious affiliations at all that believe in God there are people that don't deal with organized church at all that still believe in God so when you say God is not great let's not then debate organized religion is not great or some that have exploited organized religion is not great you in the title of your book and I've had a chance to go through your book attack God not those that express that they are therefore standing in in God's place or representing God and and in your whole RT about weapons of mass destruction and he thought he had it in all of that when we found him he was in a rat trap with a 22 pistol he knew he didn't have any weapons of mass destruction because no one has one that comes out of the hood no one that has atom bombs would just retreat with the twenty ten and wait on the Calvin I think I better stick to the reverse order no well that's that's why a very good time to attack him was before you get back what he'd lost by way of WMD he didn't have any then and he wasn't gonna get them back like that any more than he was going to improve his relations with al-qaeda there were as good as they were ever gonna get and that was fine by me maybe an argument for another time but believe me I'm not reluctant to have it then we're out of one mind be essentially I mean after I did not deny what's common knowledge that dr. Martin Luther King was the Reverend dr. Martin Luther King and was indeed at the Ebenezer Baptist Church no no I said I do not I cannot say to you that I know that he was a believing Christian no I cannot I mean neither can you say that to me anymore than we seem to be on of one mind on this to the neither of us can prove or disprove the existence of God the difference is between us I don't say that I'm an ordained minister so I don't think I could push it that far on the on the citizens you're evidently an agnostic which is a confession that I'm very welcome to have not extracted for me but heard you make now here's the question you say these texts are misused I say that they are not the Old Testament says or does not say that Abraham was doing a noble thing by offering to sacrifice a son to prove himself loyal to God or to the voices he was hearing in his head it says there was a mobile thing for him to do he was rewarded for it by a great progenitor a great to posterity and a great long life offering to murder his son because of hearing voices in his hand this is not moral teaching to me is it not the case that the the Old Testament verse says that the Amalekites must all be destroyed down to the last child every one among them not and leave not one yes it does say that the bishop of land off in an argument with Thomas Paine once said well when it says keep the women as pain had pointed out he said I'm sure God didn't mean just to keep her for immoral purposes but what does the Bishop of London Goff know about that says kill all the men kill all the children and keep the virgins I think I know what they had in mind I don't think it's moral teaching to this Jay there are not bagged settlers some Israeli citizens some of them Americans some of them as early Americans trying to settle the West Bank in the name of this prophecy or throw other people off their land and establish a feel for see that will bring on the Messiah and they hope Armageddon in the end of the world well I think the United States Supreme Court should hear argument that not one American dime can be used constitutionally for that project okay it's high time cut it off these people mean to these people mean us real harm and I'm not going to dilate about what their Muslim brothers say about us when the court the Quran does not say that you may be killed for changing your legend but the hadith the so-called sayings of the Prophet would show shaken justice seriously do say that so when someone says I'm a Muslim I'm telling you mr. Rushdie if you don't if you a pasta sighs from this faith you're dead he's not misquoting the text so he's not he's quoting them accurately I think the phrase is understated as I can I think we could do without a lot of this let me respond sick enough already would cover again you are debating points I didn't make I said you keep confusing the existence of God again with religious denomination of beliefs I'm not debating whether are they separable yes very much so I think that you're quoting the Bible if you said everything in the Bible you reject it you still have not established why a belief in God maybe a belief in God through that vehicle maybe your debate but you're not addressing God you're talking Quran Bibles people's interpretation of God that is not my debate my debate with your book is that you're saying therefore since they did this - since Abraham was going to murder his son there is no God that's like one plus two equals seven I mean we're not so Abraham may have been incorrect if that's your point or what they did with their Malcolm Ickes or what's going on in the Middle East what does that have to do with the existence of a universe that is set on an order that I believe was set by a Supreme Being that continues to evolve today that I think science has done a credible job and analyzed now you can debate which one of the Bible's corals religious books may have had it right or interpreted it right but that does not address the central question you sir did not attack the Christian Church or the Muslims religion or the Pope you attack God and to attack God is a whole lot you you hit here and you debate here let's talk about God let's not talk about those that came in his name and you have some may be credible arguments against whether or not you felt that they were correct - incorrect and again I raised as I did my opening statement who decides what is wicked what is right what is ethical if there's nothing there governs humanity whatever's ethical is whatever we decide is ethical because we're in charge it's all up to us okay once again I mean in Reverse or if I'm a religion gets its morality from us I think it's very easy to demonstrate that I'll do it from one of each of the two Testaments back on Testaments Willie oh no well why don't you testify I spent a little time with my I still owed time at my Bible okay my babble I do I told you which I taught it in I do in the there's a very famous parable in the in the New Testament where the alleged Jesus of Nazareth tells a story about a man from Samaria we call in the Good Samaritan who finding a fellow creature in enormous distress and pain goes well out of his way to alleviate his suffering and to follow up to make sure that his his sympathy hasn't been a waste of time is it to do that the after care if you like well we know one thing about this person from Samaria he cannot have been a Christian Jesus is telling this story about someone he's heard of who acted as far as we know from no other prompting with elementary human solidarity what other prompting do we need our species would not have survived we wouldn't be met here if we didn't have as well as many selfish instincts the need and often for our own sake to be of use to others to combine with them to take an interest in them to care for them and to and to worry when they're in pain no supernatural Authority as with the civil rights movement is required for this morality comes from us religion claims to invented it on our behalf then okay another example from the older Testament is it really to be believed that until they got to the foot of Mount Sinai the four words of Moses believed that up to land adultery murder theft and perjury were okay they're suddenly told oh hey we got some new ideas for you I don't think so it's a bit of an insult to the ancient Jewish faith of which Jacob and I are both rather disgraceful ornaments in our different ways I think our ancestors were smarter than that and even if they weren't smarter they wouldn't have got that far if they've been under the contrary impression the golden rule is something you don't have to teach a child there's no need to say and if you don't follow this rule you'll burn in hell forever that's immoral teaching now I hope I made myself clear on the but I'm wondering if I have because you faced me Reverend with two very unwelcome thoughts either I have been completely inarticulate and everything I've said this evening or you have misunderstood me I have to throw myself all these are not mutually exclusive and I should have seen that coming I thought I thought a bit I thought I said which common ground we cannot know that there was a creator whether of ourselves or of our cosmos if you want you may wish to assume one but that's the best you can do the evidence is all that the cosmos evolved and the evidence that there was a single mind purposeful creator of it there's nil there's no evidence for that at all but all means believe it as long as you don't try and make me believe it or teach it to my children well let me say common ground there but I would say that many people I among them in our own lives have had experiences that make me believe that there is a God and make me believe that my seeking God and seeking the guidance of a Supreme Being is real to me I'm not going by Moses I'm not going by Peter I'm not going by the man that you said was allegedly Jesus of Nazareth I'm talking about in people's personal experiences with their interaction through their own faith with God can say that that you are no one else can tell me that did not exist if I was only sitting up here arguing with you over scriptures then you would have points that would would consider valid to this discussion but I'm not here to defend scriptures I didn't write those scriptures I lived my life and in my life the existence of God has been confirmed to me in my own personal dealings and my own faith being vindicated and validated that had absolutely nothing to do with scriptures whether they were right or wrong and again I posed the question when you raise the issue of morality if there is no supervision supervisory being then what do we base morality on is it based on who has the might at any given time who's in power what is morality based on if there is no order to the universe and therefore some being some some force that ordered it then who determines what is right and wrong what is moral or immoral you use very religious terms interchangeably while you attack the idea of a God there is nothing immoral if there's nothing in charge because everything becomes moral if in fact these species as we are is all there is we'll determine well let's let's decide every four years what's moral most Republicans do but I mean let's do it in in the sense of let's just say forget all of that will decide morality based on every period of time because there is nothing up there governing in any way and you don't have to burn in hell to understand that life has certain guiding posts that has been set there well beyond your own being and I think to think that the whole world was waiting on one's birth your birth or mine or death to set the framework of morality I think that is very arrogant it's also delusional but it is very arrogant at best again in reverse order don't look low from the referee I'm over here then climb in your direction sir said it before very suggestive thing that you just said if there was no one in charge how would we know how to act morally and this is indeed reserved a profound observation it said in them it's it's argued by Smerdyakov in the brothers karma so so without God anything is permissible some people believe that some people believe that without the fear of dividing total surveillance or supervision everyone would do exactly as they wished and would we would all be wolves to each other I think there's a enormous amount of evidence that that's not the case that morality is innate in us the Solidarity is part of our self-interest in society as well as our own interest and and very much to the argue the contrary that when you see something otherwise surprising to you such as a good person acting in a wicked manner it's very often because they believe there are under divine orders to do so Steven Weinberg puts it very worse as left to themselves you know people with evil things and good people will try and do good things if you want a good person through a wicked thing that takes religion for example I'd I don't believe I simply do not believe I do not believe that my Palestinian friends are known for years think that to blow yourself up outside an orphanage is a moral act or inside one is immoral or no people so in Netanya is a moral action that anything in their nature makes them think this but their mullahs tell them that it is and that the person doing this is a hero I do not think that any person looking at a newborn baby would think how wonderful what a gift but now just let's start sawing away this genitalia with a sharp stone who would give them that idea if not the godly and what kind of argument from design is this babies are not born beautiful they're born ugly they need to be sawn a bit because the handiwork of God is such garbage well honestly this is this is what I mean when I say that those who think there's any connection between ethics and religion have all their work still ahead of them and after thousands of years still have it all ahead of them more and more so you do not believe so you do not believe in your long and thorough research in history that atheist ever did anything evil these only religious people that were driven by somebody representing God that made them do that and people that came in satanic ways all of that is rubbish only religious people reading scriptures of some sort have done wicked things in the history of the world I should have raised that question myself and I realize also what you did but I've never yet been at one of these meetings where it didn't come up and but I still owe you yet another answer when you say you've had this confirming emotion in your own life of course I would not be so presumptuous as to challenge you indeed I believe people when they say that they have experienced miracles I believe that they think that they have I think I'm obliged to credit them if it comes to that as long as they keep it to if you like or I can put it like this modestly as I dare to themselves if I believed that I was saved because once a baby boy was born and before mutilated had it was me the extrordinary Scobie that he'd escaped the female birth canal his mother was a virgin or at least the her birth canal was only one way that thus I was a sorry thing by the way religions just taste for these regions don't you find and something to put you on your guard suppose I thought okay now I know that that must prove his teachings are true which it doesn't seem to me that they do but suppose I do it and I'm going to be saved by it I think there was a wonderful secret it would make me happy it should be happy doesn't make people happy they can't be happy - I believe it - my children must be taught this stuff no sir no ma'am no day no way no shape no form you keep your illusion private and I hope it does make you happy and this perhaps some reason why it would but we're told me which a week with the Pope's authority to set up say you can't have a condom comes from his ability to certify a miracle the disturbance in the natural order I think it was David Hume who put it slightly fatherly this was again about the virgin birth I think which is more likely that the whole natural order is suspended or than a Jewish minx should tell a lie [Laughter] there has to be an answer to this kind of question as to the secular as to the secular bad behavior well I used to be a believing Marxist and I've had this argument about communism in different forms of all my life and I really there's a very you confront me with an intensely serious question and then though actually secular criminality on the political level wasn't really possible until pretty much the late 18th century because the the religious monopoly on violence and cruelty and torture and slavery and so was so intense it has to be said that some of our some of my non-believing forebears seize the opportunity to behave the same way sure there's no question about it and I'll put it like this to take the best narrow case up until 1970 the Czar of Russia was not just the absolute ruler and owner of all of Russia and all the Russian people and everything in it but he was also the head of the Russian Orthodox Church he was considered by the church and the people to be something a little more than divine like socially a little more than human not as high as Hirohito but a bit higher than the Pope in secular and temporal power if you were Stalin you'd be crazy if you didn't take advantage of a people who had centuries of indoctrination of that kind of course he would want to see if you couldn't replicate that and to see about reproducing it emulating it trading on it taking advantage of it you'd be nuts if you didn't do it so the answer I think which is a very long process will be a long cultural process is to try and move people up to a cultural and intellectual level where they are above that kind of Appeal where they're not credulous where they don't take things on faith where they don't make gods or idols or images out of anybody including fellow human beings and they learn the pleasures of thinking for themselves how about that for a modest proposal [Applause] like you what use my referees power to ask you easy question before we open it to the audience for questions and Christopher my question for you taking up the cudgels a little bit for Reverend Sharpton you keep coming back to various forms of biblical literalism Reverend somewhat to my surprise has not defended anything in the Bible and asks quite reasonably what is your problem with deism you've written about pain Jefferson you write in your book about Einstein and Darwin who are arguably dear settle in a way what it since you say yourself you can't prove God doesn't exist what is your problem with faith divorced from religious texts or literalism well religion is not the belief that there is a God after all religion is the belief that God tells you what to do so if we have to talk about religion we are not see ISM believes in the existence of a creating being but it has no prescriptions for morality you can't as the theist cannot say I think that this universe is so well designed that it implies the Creator therefore don't be going to bed with another member of the same sex theism and deism excuse me did I say theism that time deism excuse is therefore not a religion that this is the first for me I have never yet met someone in hurry orders who has said that the words of the holy books are nothing to do with God I know there's a lot of laxity in the churches these days and I've been trying to encourage it but I mean it seems to me I was I could have been pushing at a slightly more of well-defended or Jefferson who was who could have been a great paleontologist have great botanists were was in fact all of these things couldn't shake the feeling that the the sheer order and beauty of it implied something and but he had these very discussions with his French counterparts how come the shells the seashells you find them so up high up on the mountaintops what is that you have no idea he died after 1819 the great day in 1819 is the day that mr. Lincoln is born and mr. Darwin is born same day I know which one of them was the greater Emancipator to Jefferson couldn't see is far we just didn't have the horizon now you can hold to disbelief if you choose if you like but the overwhelming evidence is that we do have an explanation for the origins of the species ours and all others and that each new discovery made however in over a motor part of the Earth's surface in paleontology will confirm or not confuse or not contradict the body of knowledge that we have so painstakingly erected so everything else added to that is a work of what the Church of England used to call super irrigation it's needless it's unnecessary Occam's razor disposes painlessly oh it's gone it's history to turn to you Reverend Sharpton for a moment I was expecting you - I think you've very eloquently made a version of the the argument from design you you have argued of an idea of spirituality but you haven't defended the Bible at all I mean though isn't that what you what you do for the baby I read the wrong book I did not get the book that Hitchens wrote the Bible is not great I didn't get a copy of the book that religion is not great he said God is not great and I have yet to after several enquiries here tonight get him to address that and when I read his book and hear him talk he makes a case against everything other than God maybe the name of the book should have been God is not great I don't think or you have the right to think he's great if you just don't tell me that might have been a more appropriate title but I'm waiting for him to establish that God not King James not Mohammed not Jerry Falwell God is not great so to ask me to defend Who I have no personal relationship with no belief in is-is-is I'm in the wrong debate I think that we can then agree that as long as I don't bother the sedate scholarly world of mr. Hitchens that I can believe in my god and he's fine and I'm fine with that because I'm certainly not trying to convert mr. Hitchens I'm just trying to have him understand that he cannot impose upon me how I relate to God by quoting things that I may or may not believe anyway I'm afraid we're not gonna have any conversions tonight and I wasn't expecting any although you never know if Christopher is going to start speaking in tongues before we're done we let's take some questions from the audience there is working thank you very much gentlemen thank you very much for the discussion this question is for mr. Hitchens based on your prior writings based on most recently a time out interview with you in which you claimed that the only time you ever prayed to God was for an erection I'm going to ask you this question was that a miracle wait people the question mr. Hitchens is well people sure what people usually want to know was was the prayer answer yeah not me baby we obviously normal saying Americans continue to be so bedazzled by a B spokes off cam superficie list who just wants the u.s. to pick up the many disastrous pieces of the British Empire and his understanding of God is much shorter than his penis I don't mind assuming that question let's try another one when I thought it what it sounded interrogative I do what anyone's think I'm judging anything that's all it might be difficult for me to follow up that one but um correct me if I'm wrong in the beginning to talk you we will we will you expressed in Timothy towards deism in principle slow down I can't hear what I'm sorry in in the beginning of the talk you express antipathy towards deism in principle predicated on this particular interpretation of God as a supreme dictator and judge is that correct that would be correct yes now if I could play devil's advocate for God for a moment could you appreciate a God who watches us and our actions eagerly and with great interest because he created a world where everything is permitted yes I couldn't picture it but I'm not without horror hi Christopher my name is Linda Ward's Alvey I came from Toronto for this what about my penis is it yeah I wanted to ask you in light of the number of intellectuals and well educated people and Templeton Prize winners they invoke the names of Richard Dawkins you and others who are speaking out and liberating us right now are they deluded dishonest or emotionally dysfunctional and may I also ask with regards to your book you mentioned that at age nine that you realized that you might have been an atheist but yet had to religious weddings one Greek Orthodox and then Jewish why did you do that when my second wedding came along I I went for the justice of the peace in a real estate office who under a stuffed trout now now I got the problem two failed marriages and one failed erection you gave what one guy you you still that you still don't know you still don't know how that prayer was answered right that's what you might call a premature ejaculation on your phone and not if I had married a witness I'm sorry I'm sorry but I only have one ex-wife and not even she most adamant moments would describe our marriage has failed I will say this by the way hopefully courage anyone here who might be ever named difficulty if you've had a child with someone who really could never be divorced from them and she and I are very proud of our children and they are rather happy with us it's a pity we couldn't get along better but anyway don't ever get your husky about this on with the show skipping lightly over the genitalia Isaac Newton Isaac Newton was a spiritualist as far as we know he seems to have believed in a number of weird and crackpot theories Joseph Priestley the great Unitarian and rationalist and defender of the American Revolution forced a fee from England to Philadelphia after the monarchists and Tories burned his laboratory discoverer of oxygen believed in the phlogiston theory the most exploded theory that we know of you're trying to prove the coincidence or coexistence of superstition and mania of all kinds with great scientific achievement all over the place that may now be people who are real physicists Fred Hoyle was actually one of them the late Fred Hoyle the man who believed in steady state and disbelieved what he contemptuously called the big bang was also a man of odd intermittent faith it doesn't matter what you could not do is say that your evidence as a physicist or biologist supported your private religious beliefs it would be a coincidence whereas if you're Richard Dawkins the the coherence between what you have found and what you've contributed the science and the extreme unlikelihood of the existence of any God is pretty striking hope that's clear first of all I have no interest in any one sex life sorry my question builds upon your response why do so many people seem to feel such as if need to believe things which are obviously untrue homeopathy angels UFOs you name it all the claptrap which feels endless magazines television shows etc the question is essentially why is why is there such a persistent need for faith why do so many people continue to believe if Christopher argues that the species has evolved beyond the need for it is that your question well not quite what is the fundamental attraction of the logical as well say it again what is the fundamental attraction of the illogical oh yeah people are people drawn to religion because they're drawn to superstition and things that aren't logical well let's go in Reverse all right then well look there's a poem by Philip Larkin called church-going which I hope anyone here who has not read that sentence is going nowhere I hope anyone who hasn't read that poem will have will let me do them a favor and look it up for themselves before next this time tomorrow which would perfectly express my point of view it's a wonderful statement by the greatest English poet of this period who about the experience of visiting a church not wanting to be able to believe but not being able to dismiss the seriousness the history the tradition the beauty of it I couldn't do without the purpose of george herbert or john donne either which are strictly devotional poems i think you could fake being a devotional painter you could be a patriot didn't believe in God and pretend you did for patronage you couldn't fake being John Donne or George Oliver I couldn't do without their work I couldn't do without the Gothic architecture or devotional music either I wouldn't trust anyone who who did who had no feeling for this and people who don't know what the numinous of the transcendent feel like who don't experience anything word combinations of landscape and music and poetry and also that The Melancholy of one's own life the realization that we're going to die and that our children actually need us to do so other melancholy reflections of this kind to that extent not poetic not human not literary not civilized but but the supernatural adds to this absolutely zero it seems to me in some ways subtracts from its grandeur and its seriousness so I'm one of those super scholars actually thinking about or was thinking about when he wrote he wrote person who is so made that he cannot believe there are millions of us there always have been there are now they're going many more of us in the future we're just a little bit fed up of being treated like freaks in American culture [Applause] do not believe that everyone believes in things that are illogical I think that and there are different theologians that approach it differently I guess the closest well not exactly where I am but Paul Tillich that talks about a personal God would be going in the direction that I believe I believe in my own experiences and my own relationship with God and that is not based on any illogical unbelievable act I do not believe things that are necessarily part of dogma and I think that Richard you whoever has the right to disbelieve it without being a freak but I don't think that I am a freak that believes in illogical things because I believe that the reason the world operates in a certain order is because there is a supreme force that ordered it and I don't think that I happen to agree with Richard that I think religion has been one of the most misused things in history but I don't think that has anything to do with the existence or non-existence of God I think that has something to do with man's misuse or use of what is is absolutely there and that is the Supreme Being thank you we have a lot of questions let's get through as many as we can Sarah I wonder if you both might comment on this at a in an age when there is so much as mr. Hitchens would put a wonderful secular knowledge that should disprove or replace the value of the importance of religion all the modern knowledge that we have why is it that in so much of the world religion is growing rapidly in this global South particularly of angelical Christianity is growing at a tremendous rate and there are plenty of statistics to back that up and even when people experience the most horrendous evil they seem to turn in some strong ways towards religious belief my brother-in-law is a US Air Force chaplain he served two tours in Iraq he's presently in Afghanistan he ministers to men and women who have seen horrendous evil and experienced at firsthand and yet his services are overflowing he's done many baptisms please help us understand a time when the human race should have grown out of all of this why is it growing so dramatically thank you well the risk of being callous can be inaudible I don't think that we should be paying for chaplains I don't think the US government should be employing now James James Madison's co-author of the Virginia statute on religious freedom and over the First Amendment therefore was very adamant on the point very clear there shouldn't be it's flat out on unconstitutional to pay or employ a chaplain to open the procedures of Congress or to be in the Armed Forces we can't have chaplains on our payroll that's that people who want to pray can't be stopped but they can do it of all the solitary activities apart from the search for nevermind surely that's one that doesn't need a paid state mediator it's a negation of the American Revolution so that's first second yes the modernity involving as it does a huge exchange of Technology and population and innovation and a very churning of the trigonis manner of course means that a lot of lives have to be lived in a very insecure and risky way and it's not at all unlike our nature as a species to try and cling to stability certainty and consolation in those cases it explains itself it seems to me what is notable though is that hasn't come up in thousands of years with any superior explanation to the old ones it still is going back to myths that were discredited and exploded many years ago and these of course turn out to be false consolations whereas the consolations of philosophy and over the aesthetic and of the beauty of science and of reason available to us all the time and really able to explain why things happen why terrible wounds are inflicted in Afghanistan so no no that won't do let's like some absolute loser find though the person who Paley means who says finds a watch on the beach and thinks I don't know what this is for but it seems to check it must be for something but doesn't understand it we find this wonderful truffle and open it and look at the chocolate or throw it away and then munch on the wrapper I don't understand it but I'm one of those who are not made this way I think the core of your question I think that the more mankind learns the more mankind understands that it does not have all the answers and that's why people continue to reach and seek answers that is beyond what even in this age we've been able to discover I think that is why and I think that there's also the innate emptiness in mankind to always go back to the core of what made mankind in the first place and that to me is a supreme being I think that answers the question of why I think the invent sorry I thought you got it a Holy Ghost but I think that's why this read the rise of advance whether they're shouting Holloman I agree with the rise or not is another question but I think the quest is inspired because of because of the increased knowledge has not answered the question of where in and what governs all of the things that obviously operate in some order and with some precision and I must say at the risk of my sounding callous it amazes me that it doesn't bother you that we spend two trillion dollars in a war we should have never been in you just worry about paying the chaplains to pray over [Applause] yeah well you see I don't love our enemies and I don't love people who do love them I hate our enemies and I think they should be killed and I think that they want to kill me and I think we could do it probably with half the budget or maybe twice but I'm absolutely sure that there should be no country that has a budget that could threaten ours and I'm not sentimental about the point I wouldn't have another whack at that very celestial people dare preach God and love should shut up and remain private like killers or to just going people to please kill people that they call to preach that's great for calming the people who preach Allahu Akbar be the preacher allahu akbar had better find out that there's a stronger force than them and one that also has unalterable convictions and principles and that can also be offended and that they offended at their peril that's what I think now to this last question I just won't have one more run out it already answered I know but if you don't mind you try some way when I started hurling myself around like a shouting hollow person it was right or wrong with you so good there's the three turn the questions that they come and ask these chaplains ah why why why why does it happen that the nicest guy in my unit just took a round through the throat you know then I've just been of this village where the all the children are being killed and where you can fill in this feel cell fear why why why why that's what the question isn't it well do you have you ever heard any spokes from a very religion give an answer to that question they've had thousands of years to think about it no unless to say was they used to when it was a plague or a war or tsunami well it's a probably a sign of sin you've been punished the Archbishop of Canterbury in England two years ago says in where it really worries how God could be so mean as to unleash a tidal wave towards Christmastime in Asia you can't believe you're listening to this stuff now if you ask me okay I'll say why did this happen why did the best guy I know get cancer of the throat or get mugged or kill slaughtered or whatever I say because we belong to him perfectly evolved species where the adrenaline glands are too big the prefrontal lobes are too small and we bear every sign of the stamp of our lowly origin and with only by just realizing the fact that we are mammals are we likely to be able to talk any sense about it and if you say well why did that City fall down or be overcome by waves or that volcano kill all those children I say well hate to break it to you but we live on a cooling planet whose crust hasn't quite settled yet and these are to be expected and there is no Hathor explanation for them and don't believe anyone who says there is well this is not perhaps perfect ethical instruction but it does conform to the Hippocratic injunction the Primo non nocere at least I'm not lying to these people at least what I say can do them no harm and at least it cannot increase the illusions they already have and usually when you go to that village they asked why are the children being killed it's because someone who believed in God thought that they had a coming [Applause] next hi thank you I'll be brief the question of where to find morality with or without goddess when I which I think is certainly too large for either side of this debate to settle resolve within the space of a few hours you can't hear me however I think mr. Hitchens has made a start at and at least offering a possibility of how we might find morality okay I'm sorry Reverend Sharpton has resisted mr. Hitchens attacks on the institutions that were later claimed to relate God's Will but expresses doubt as to how we can have morality without God so I'm wondering if criteria such as personal experience are all we have without the legislature of shared religious texts how are we to move on from moral sophism and actually find morality I think that well mr. Hitchens that says that we found morality in ourselves that we know loyalty I would argue that the reason you can find it within yourselves is because of a sense of God and a pattern and human character that was there there's no scientific evidence offered by non-believers as why this morality would be there other than what wouldn't it just evolved somewhere that we would have this sense of morality I don't think that it has to be governed by organized religion that's all hi first of all I just want to say I'm writing a book and it's called an atheist defends religion why religion succeeds and atheism fails so I am an atheist but I defend religion and my you know III just lost it I'm sorry I'm sorry well I quite like question is to to Christopher is how you can justify why take something away from people from 95 that gives meaning to 95 percent of the American people and replace it with something that gives meaning to just 5% of the American people ha well what an incredibly stupid question first first I've said repeatedly that this stuff cannot be taken away from people it is their favorite toy and it will remain so as long as freud said in the future of illusion will remain that way as long as we're afraid of death and have no problem which is I think likely to be quite a long time second I hope I've made it clear that I'm perfectly happy for people to have these toys and to play with them at home and hug them to themselves and so on and share them with other people who come round and play with the toys so that's I'm sooo fine they are not to make me play with these toys ok I will not play with the toys don't bring the toys to my house don't say my children must play with these toys don't say my toys might be a condom here we go again I'm not allowed by their toys I'm not going to have any of that enough with clerical and religious bullying and intimidation is that finally clear have I got that across thank you yes mr. Sharpton if morality comes from whatever God tells people to do or whatever God says is right and wrong rather than the objective requirements of human life then how has God any different than Stalin but I never said that I think that I think mr. Hitchens said that God tells these people this I said that God if there is no Supreme Being that sets a framework for the world that has a framework of right and wrong then what do we base it on do I think God calls the leaders of the church every morning and tells them what's right and wrong after they read the New York Times no I think that there is a framework based on what is right and wrong in humanity by the force that created humanity and that is not God sending you an email every day or revelation on a map I did not say that I think that was his concept of what had happened to some that had professed that so I can't defend what I didn't say I am of one mind with the Reverend in saying that there has been no divine revelation then that there could not be such a thing but I am a little disappointed in you just a fraction disappointed I know but you can live with it you're man enough your man and Asura if this is a follow up against to the last question but if you need God or religion or spirituality whatever to have morality then how do you explain the high crime rate in this us which is the most religious industrial country in the world versus Japan and Sweden and other countries that are almost entirely secular well I think I think you confuse two things in your question there first of all is a distinct difference between spiritual and religious you kind of intermingled the two and I think that those that commit crimes are and I hate to disagree with mr. Hitchens are not all believers in God I mean to say that that question is logical is to say that every criminal is a god-fearing person that commits crime i I have a feeling I certainly don't have the data at my disposal as my good friend brother Hitchens but I would suspect atheist commit crimes to we're of one we're coming I mean look I know I mean I just said the question was supposed to be helpful to my side but I don't find it so in for two reasons one its to approximate I mean just as you hear people say something I figures researchers there are no atheists in foxholes you've heard it there very few atheists on death row either but I wouldn't make that a case for my side it's just not the way I argue I do notice the Christians of other believers tend to say if a baby falls here 25 floors and lands with a bounce on the lawn and is unharmed they attribute it to a divine intervention and if it falls 2 feet off a table and cracks its skull and dies they just say that's bad luck I have noticed that tendency and this is I think a version of that the burden of proof in any case is not on our team if you will we don't say just belief in God will make you a better person or make you more moral we are arguing against those who say that a belief in an unprovable supernatural will make you more moral now that we know is not true that we know is not true because there's not just a lot of ordinary crime committed by the faithful but there's a lot of extraordinary crime such as suicide bombing and genital mutilation and many other things that's committed because of and only because of faith so the word my crime breakdown would be to increase atheism in disbelief there is no corollary as I was careful I think scrupulous is saying there is no corollary on the Atheist side to that but the those who argue that religion is a source of morality have as yet as always and as so far this evening all they're explaining the ahead of them and that's with 2,000 years of failure to chalk up I must say this and I know we have some more questions atheism has been here for thousands of years - and I think that just as there is a lot going forward to look for answers from those of us that believe those that have made thousands of years of careers and books in disbelief haven't answered much either well if you think that spin is a say or Democritus is just the equivalent of I don't know who do you say Paul Tillich I just think you're not comparing like with night I think our tradition beats yours every time intellect of course you do and our tradition hasn't we've never had to take anything that we've never had to say look we were teaching the children that the world was flat for too long we'll have to change this now I never said you're going to limbo if your child dies on baptize we'd have nothing of this sort of our conscience and every discovery made by independent corroborated disinterested research tends to support what we suspected in this but I would argue that those of us that believe in our own relationships with God and believe prayers are answered does but just believe that it's hard to lose something if you put nothing there but just argue against whatever's there is not there so you start with the undue advantage that wins that went straight past my battle I know let's take I want to take just two more questions sir please mr. Hitchens does a man have an innate need for ceremony and ritual and if so how does he satisfied without religion I believe that we do for the most part have an innate need for ceremony and ritual yes I think that seems to be a common finding of all anthropologists in all societies at all times this doesn't mean that they have to take the form of say human sacrifice though they some of the better and more elaborate ones have taken that form or say the investiture of a monarch where one will be better off with a republic and so forth I mean the knowledge of these needs or innate innate narcissism is also an awareness that they have these impulses must be so to say domesticated civilized actually the best argument I know for religion which is perhaps I owe an apology to the gentleman I was rude to or a few minutes ago which is in a way an atheist argument is that religion though it's based on complete falsity and fantasy does at least give a form and a shape to people's atavistic and superstitious and barbaric and other worshipping tennis is it it domesticates and organizes them that's what many people believe the Roman Catholic Church has been doing for a while and I would be prepared to concede that if it wasn't for the teachings on virginity the V from the denial of the right of contraception and many other horror shows but they can they can put on a good ritual I'll give you that but don't go don't go believing that if you put a wafer on your tongue you're gonna change to the cosmos because you know there's no truth to that at all we're we're honored to have ayaan Hirsi Ali here this evening and I'm going to give her the honor of the last question yes thank you and I've become an atheist and if brother Shapton answers my question I might go back to faith mr. Sharpton you repeated many times tonight that you did not want to talk about religion you wanted to talk about God is it unfair them to ask you to give us the evidence of his existence is it for instance unreasonable for you to tell us if he or she or it created this world order who created him then who created God what was before him well why don't let me finish all of my questions oh I thought you only had one this is oh well it's important okay it's a long conversion go ahead and finally isn't it odd that you carry a Christian title and that you refuse even for once tonight to defend the church and the content of the Bible because we are here we are here to discuss mr. Hitchens book and mr. Hitchens book attacked God and I wanted him to defend his book his book unfortunately for your question did not attack the Bible or Christianity and I would not watch well you have to read the book it does when you get inside but I think that what you must wouldwould what I wanted to convey is that there are all kinds of people that relate to God other than the ways mr. Hitchens may address a certain religion that I respect you don't have to be a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu or Buddhist to believe in God or worship God so that is not the defense against those that say that God does not exist because that would have reduced the debate to just part of the framework of the book so that is why I wanted him to discuss with us his his whole attack not just his dogmatic attack though he clearly does and I do encourage people to buy the book it's well written I don't believe what it says but it's well written no he's a very nice eloquent and well-versed person well it's extremely handsome of you so that in answer to your first question I think that again to say that one does not exist because I cannot say for sure how it was brought into being I'm sitting on the stage you don't know how I was born answering God's not there because we don't know who God's father was or how God came into being I don't think deals with the existence that there is clearly confirmed by some of the scientific data in mr. Hitchens book that I can encourage you to get and get an autograph is that a ritual when you sign off yes it is I think that it's more like a sacrament actually that it's a sacrament it's more like a sign that the sacrament don't this is America baby don't put away for ya Tom when you get an autograph maybe and you're gonna be nice to people with receipts from now and that's how moral I am afraid we're ending the evening with no conversions but but with with a lot of eloquence and I want to please join me in thanking [Applause] [Music]

Channel: ChristopherHitchslap

Views: 1,252,372

Rating: 4.777709 out of 5

Keywords: Christopher, Hitchens, Debates, Al, Sharpton, New, York, Public

Id: HPYxA8dYLBY

Length: 89min 8sec (5348 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 06 2011

Reddit Comments

[u/Danny_Mc_71]

That doesn't make a lick of sense and yet she thinks she got him good.

[u/Direnta]

She seems like a very insecure and spiteful person.

[u/Diabolakill]

I believe she just proved the point he was making with his book.

[u/Mrsparklee]

And you know she went home and told everyone how she 'totally got him good."

[u/3rdEYExNavigator]

I have a feeling that woman is of the type that like to lose their shit when their beliefs are challenged

[u/ImKnotVaryCreative]

Imagine thinking you can go toe to toe with Christopher Hitchens.

Lmao

[u/ThePalmIsle]

Sane, normal

[u/[deleted]]

Holy shit Hitchens was lightening quick.

[u/[deleted]]

got him