Chris Hodges, Brad Lomenick and Carey Nieuwhof Talk About Trends in Next Generation Leadership

well Chris Hodges Brad llama dick welcome to the podcast thanks so much it's gonna be a good time together absolutely this will be fun carry doctor llama Nick it's good to have you back we do our annual rethink the leadership roundtable and this year we've got Chris Hodges coming to the party which is gonna be a lot of fun listen he's he's he's forgotten so much more than I'll ever know so I'll yield my time most the time to the senator from Alabama because he's question ed they Church the Highlands if if you don't know obviously one of the most influential churches in America largest and Chris is the obviously that the pastor behind the scenes mm-hmm happen yeah I'd tell us a little bit Chris I'm sure most of our listeners will know exactly who you are and your story but just give us a little bit of the trajectory of your leadership in Church of the Highlands well the the trim down version is I was born and raised in Baton Rouge Louisiana always wanted number-two guy in the world and never aspired not even for a moment to be the senior pastor of a church went to a bout of depression in 1999 that now I'm looking back I can see it was God I don't think he created it but he used it to get me out of a very comfortable nest got me praying and fasting and trying to figure out what my life was supposed to be all about at 38 years old and fell in love with church planning in 2000 feel like I got a vision to plant a church back when really there weren't there wasn't any church planning anything there wasn't any movement books podcast I don't think they were even podcasts but there was nothing and and so I we just kind of blindly moved to Birmingham that's another long story how God really led us to this city but I didn't know a soul we had six weeks of a preparation for the launch which was which is not nearly enough time and pretty much raised all my own money for it and anyway February 4th 2001 we planted church the highlands with 34 people we had 400 in the first service 200 came back and so in anyway and then just little by little this thing kept growing and and guys nobody's more amazed than me here we are we just celebrated this past Sunday at the time of this recording our 19th anniversary as a church and yeah now we have 22 campuses and we're in 20 of Alabama's prisons every Sunday and you know and doing a lot to help other churches with Ark and grove and now a college and I still shake my head I still still can't believe this is my life and uh and I've surely about half the time I put on our properties tears come to my eyes I'm still I've never lost the wonder of what the Lord has done so I'm very very grateful how many how many people now would be at Church of the Highlands on the weekend Chris on a normal weekend we will have about 55 to 65 thousand people you know and then we have we have some spikes of you know on on the big days and the Christmases and the Easter's and we do a series caught at the movies every year that you know attracts another 20,000 people or so to that but yeah that's it's it's amazing it's it's just unbelievable really to see the story if you don't go ahead Chris you know me it's even more unbelievable if you don't mind and the story of like leaders who went through a dark night of the soul like some kind about a depression can you walk us back a little bit to the late 90s because I'll bet you that there are a lot of leaders who are right around that stage who are exactly that place right now and maybe are wondering if it's over well I do think there is a clinical depression that needs to be treated clinically or medically or counseling but I do think a lot of depression is assignment related spot in life and you're really not living out your transcendent redemptive calling that God has for all of us that's what creates a darkness of the soul I think the spirit and the spirit assignment that God has for us is connected to our souls and so and I do think that a lot of times when we're in the wrong place not a bad place just the wrong place it can actually be a good place that's the wrong place but just that that there's this unfulfilled you know something's missing and I think when those don't line up I think we have to find out you know when Elijah had his bout of depression he wanted to take his own life the angel Lord encouraged him to get physically healthy you know he'd come to sleep and eat but then he gave him unassigned me so here I want you to go do these things I want you go talk to this person go give this message this person and it was the assignment I carry I remember the day that it happened that I saw a vision and an open vision of me leading a church how jump it jumped back into my soul a matter of hours I just I had purpose again because I had a clear God God assignment and um and so I think it's very important that interesting I was interviewing another leader her name's Cathy Heller and she'll be on the show this year and she said the opposite of depression isn't happiness its purpose and I think there's something to that I a hundred percent agree what were you doing at the time at 38 before you had this vision and before you started Church to the Highland I've done music my whole life and so and I did of course you know every young pastor does youth and students as well so I was 18 years in as an associate pastor at a very successful large church in you know in my hometown of Baton Rouge and very happy I was in a living in a home I built out in the country I mean you know and I was paid better than I would have paid myself I mean I was knew there was nothing on paper to be unhappy about I was just miserable it's completely miserable yeah was that a gradual slide or did it hit you all at once uh it was somewhat gradual and and and then some circumstances some unfortunate circumstances in family I think added to the pile of and again I don't think God is the altar of anything my theology is I don't think he is the author of anything bad only only everything every good and perfect gift comes from our God but I do think he uses it and he's certainly used it felt like you know they say when a an eagle is trying to get the eaglets out of a very comfortable eagle's nest the the mother Eagle will just pull out all the comfortable stuffing so that they all they feel is the sticks poking at them and that's kind of how it fell I feel like the stuffing was coming out of my comfortable nest and all I could fill were the barbs of these sticks saying hey it's time you should go to look for something else and of course I did it through my pastor out I didn't just you know jumped ship I prayed and fasted and and got got counseling from my own pastor and he he's actually the one who affirmed he said Chris it's time for you to lead your own church you know so wow wow I'm playing a little Gordon McDonald here that's being like way too generous but how old were you when you hit your dark night of the soul I was around that you know late 30s early 40s I think I was forward I think I was actually 40 years had just turned 41 yeah and I was 41 I was 41 when I hit mine back in no.6 and isn't that interesting because Gordon McDonald yeah is very easy but on this podcast and he has a theory yeah that right around 38 ish to 42 you go through a major metaphor more Phasis and I have seen in my own friends my own colleagues so often and I know that there are thousands of people right in that bubble right now listening to this podcast so no that's good to know and it's good to know there's hope I mean you're leading an incredibly productive life Brad's or you I'm trying to over here and you know it's it's amazing to see that there's a comeback after that and that's good to know can I jump in and ask Chris a question cuz I'm just curious you said you know you thought you would always be a number two for we're sort of your season that of curry what was that transition like because there's a lot of people out there who probably would say as a leader they feel that that connection to a position but but obviously that wasn't the only thing for you so how did you navigate through that process well the two fortunate things that I had already in my arsenal was I've done music my whole life and boy if you can do music and speak it's an unfair advantage because you can really flow a service you can in and I had that ability because I've I've been doing music since I was 7 years old so I had that and then as a youth pastor I was already speaking every week I had been for 18 years albeit to a bunch of teenagers you know but but but still I had the reps and and I think that it made me a little bit uniquely equipped where a lot of the guys that now we work with with Ark and others that are wanting to plant churches sometimes they come with that and sometimes they don't and I think I do think it's important so honestly Brad it was an easy transition but I didn't know how to do was the money the leadership you know I'd never had a board before didn't know how to build church government I didn't know how to do elders those were the learning curve areas that I really had to figure out pretty quickly never bought buildings before and you know never paid a light bill for a church before so I had had to figure out some of the business side of it that was the part that was I was glad that it grew somewhat incrementally not not all at the time so we were we were portable for seven years so and we had the offices in the basement of my house so so it was a slow grow at the beginning and it kind of exploded really around year six or seven is when we kind of really saw when we actually moved into our first permanent facility how did you figure that out go ahead Brad go ahead I was gonna say I think the first the first time I met you Chris was with John Maxwell and it was it was at some kind of round table a small gathering in Atlanta at the office because I was worked at Jon's position and one of the things you that you've done so well is you connect to people who have influence and they want to bring you along with them and I saw that at that point that was 2001 or two and you know you were here was John bringing you in and we're like who's who's this guy you know and and you just have that ability to connect to people and then allow for them to mentor you to pour into you and I think that's another thing for leaders that they need to be very aware of us is you know the who you get around many times will will help help you navigate some of those things you don't know how to do well that's exactly how I did it and I was kind of anticipating your question as well Carrie you said you know how did you do it well I just forced my way into people to mentor me they John wasn't looking for me I was looking for him and honestly he didn't give me the time of day at first so I just found out what he was interested in and started serving it he was interested in training leaders overseas I said okay well I'll just jump into that because I need him in my life and and if I have inequality its is I do have an insatiable appetite to learn and to grow I could take you to our church and show you and tell you which church we learned that from and I'm not talking about total imitations I'm just talking about learning I call it learning from proven models and then work your own DNA and your own values and your own vision into those but but in many cases we just didn't reinvent the wheel I you know I just the same thing with Craig Groeschel i-i-i-i called Craig and said can I just have a one hour of your time I'll pay you for it and he didn't know me from Adam you know and I flew into Oklahoma City and and then one our conversation turned into we stand up staying for three days we kind of came fast friends yeah and I and I saw all these campuses took a lot of notes and then next thing I know he invited me to come serve a five-year term on his board at Life Church and now I'm learning how they multiply their campuses so if again if I've done anything I'm I could right now I'm learning from churches I mean I always think there's a church that knows something that I don't know and always say there's that every church has does something better than we do it for now I'm gonna learn it they're gonna become learning from me next year you know so and I just that's the fun part of my job I still enjoy doing that hmm Brad what are some of the things you've seen Church of the Highlands and Chris do really well like from the seat where what do you think some of the secret sauce is that you would observe as a third party yeah well I think I think the curiosity mr. learned is a huge part of the success story of Church the highlands and everybody on staff there that I've met from Chris all the way down to you know some intern they they have a have a posture of walking in with the moleskin and they don't they don't act like even though they could at this point they could act like they know more but they still walk in with that posture which i think is is both god-honoring as well as it's it's endearing to people you know there's just a sense that you want to be around people who had a culture like that I would say the commitment and Chris can talk more about this because I know this is his legacy plague but the commitment to the next generation perhaps might be the thing that that Hyland's is most known for I mean you know they've got thousands of students showing up to conferences they've got a college that is is is continuing to explode in both impact and influence and attendance so I would say that has driven a lot of the things that I've seen that feel like their success stories and then the third thing would be a commitment and Chris you can talk about this to really like the system side of Highlands is so dialed in but yet there's room for the spirit to move and you know I think that the idea that the system's can drive what is happening and they can be incredibly focused on the building you know the the actress will like not the building itself but the building of the ministry while also giving room for the spirit this is this is pretty you know this is where a lot of churches are trying to get to insurance the Highlands I think has been doing that from the beginning and because Chris here you know you're a you're a Systems Expert like people show up at your feet now to understand like how did you guys build this right at the same time you're not you're not assist your that's not all you do it's some some ways that became what you were known for but those would be three that stand out to me dee come on on that crest because that is really a unique combination I mean first of all for somebody who's artistic and musical to really have an understanding and appreciation for systems I'm not saying that never happens is just not on normal pairing and and for somebody who really understands systems structure and I mean that's that's the word on the street from all the leaders I know it's like yeah systems nobody's better at systems in church to the highland among highlands among other things how did that pairing show up well it honestly comes from my background I have the home church that I'm a part of had a very strong prayer and fasting and worship culture and then in my home my dad was the most brilliant financial mind that I've ever known and I mean he was teaching me money at eight years old he was we'd go on a trip and he would put our spending money in envelopes and just teaching us budgeting and saying hey you can you know if we're all doing it I'll pay for it but we're not all doing it you know you can spend it all at the first gas station we come to you can is to hear it here's your money and he was teaching me you know these systems and with budgeting and finance as well as what schedule my dad was a was a meticulous kind of accountant type personality and I'm just very very grateful for it then then I kind of have a business acumen anyway just naturally I've always actually been very very good with money just naturally and I just love leadership and I love systems I was very greatly impacted by the e-myth by Michael Gerber because basically hit Dean of the thesis of the book the e-myth is is that you if you have a good product you'll have a great company and you won't it's it's only the delivery of the product that determines the success of the company and that's why inferior products like a McDonald's hamburger can be the largest hamburger franchise but because the genius wasn't the quality of the burger the genius was the delivery of the burger it was how quickly they could get it to you the happy meal the playground the drive-through they were creating systems of delivery that make them successful God is not a product of course but-but-but churches had great vision I think the Bible gives us very clear vision but a lot of times we haven't created systems that are ever gonna deliver it and so what we do is what about what I think makes a great system and according to the e-myth book what makes a great system is can everybody do it because if because if it's personality dependent in other words if only church the Hyland's could do our system then it's really not a great system because it's gonna die it's gonna die the day I die its personality Riven but if it's systems dependent you know the McDonald's hamburger will taste the same in Moscow as it does here in in and United States and it does and so so I kind of bought into that concept and even today we make decisions about what we're gonna do and we asked her by asking ourselves could other churches do it and if the Church of 500 couldn't do what we're doing because we feel called to help other churches we don't do it we only could create systems that are both scalable and transferable so anybody can do it anywhere and and I don't know so we just we've just been committed to that for a long time because of the call we have to help other churches what are some of the systems that have been the most helpful to you in the most helpful to others through our core through grow or some of the other work you do in resourcing other leaders well it all begins with a very clear vision I'm not sure that churches most churches don't know really what they're calling the touchdown line so I'll go in when I consult I'll say okay now what do you what is your scoreboard would eat what are you measuring and I'll have the lead team that I'm consulting all right down what they think the answer to that question is and and guys 100% of the time there's never been an exception yet I get great answers and different answers so so everybody has a good answer but they all are running a play toward a different touchdown line and that's why there's there's not a lot of really unity of vision so it all begins with what are you going to measure and for us it's we're measuring people getting say people getting pastored and cared for and healed people finding their calling in their spiritual gift and then being mobilized we're only measuring for things get them say get them healed get them trained get immobilized and those are all quantifiable measurable visions now a system it just delivers it and I always say the we're not doing it the right way the right way is the way that works and it that's the right system the right says it's very simple the right system is one that works so nobody if if you have a go for people to be saved and nobody's getting saved you're doing it wrong you know so so we get real pragmatic and say you know and that's a classic example most churches have a vision to reach lost people but they haven't created anything that lost people are attracted to so they have a bad system let's say what happens is guys as we fall in love with our system more than the vision we like how we do it more than what it's supposed to produce and so there really the job is to get them to fall out of love of their systems and get more pragmatic and stay in love with the vision now I mean large organization over 50,000 in attendance 22 locations how do you keep your systems nimble like I'm sure some stuff that was working five years ago probably is showing diminishing returns how do you keep that kind of agility and flexibility at church of the highlands now yeah just continually measuring it that's how we just we're never we never stop looking at the dashboard you know same thing with a car when you first buy it everything runs perfectly but after about a hundred thousand miles the needles are moving in wrong bad well so we but you won't know you don't want to end up on the side of the road broken you want to get an indicator but what happens so you have to create some dashboards and then check them regularly and we teach we teach churches how to do that as well can you share some key metrics that you're really I know the big four but what what would be an example of some warning signs where you're like yeah I'm not sure this is gonna work anymore for us small group attendance is huge because I do believe that you cannot get away from I think the church has to get bigger because lost people matter but it has to get smaller because individuals matter so the church family matters so in the words of Rick Warren it has to get larger and smaller at the same time and I believe that so we're very committed to that it really is an unseen backbone of the church is is the relational connection so if the church ever grows beyond what it can touch it'll be malnourished just like a human body would be now nourished if it doesn't receive physical touch so even in the age of digital and we're delivering everything through these media platforms and one of the things I say to those that are watching online is I'm glad you're there but there's nothing like being in the room and I looked at the big group that we call the church and say look you still need you know to tell everybody what's going on in your life but you better tell somebody and take the mask off in front of someone and find some healing so so I think those are some major indicators for us finances are one that I think that are critical a lot of churches that the month but when you get larger you can do more and just because you can doesn't mean you should yeah and so those can get out of whack really the either in salaries or buildings one of the those two usually go beyond so we just created we even created ceilings on those two areas financially even though we could do it we don't do it just to keep the discipline in the margin so that we can stay healthy so there's a lot of different indicators but those are some of the main ones Chris can you talk about financial margin because so many churches so many businesses actually struggle with cash flow and margin and you guys have innovated in that area to the point that's rippling across a lot of churches in the United States and around the world now so can you share the basic premise behind that two things are the basic premise one is yep you got to be generous you know we won't we our whole systems if you will is based off of people's generosity and their tithing and their giving of offerings in this ridiculous if you're gonna be dependent upon a system and they're not engaged your own in that system I think the church needs to learn how to be generous and find strategic places to invest outside of their church to help others so the first 10% of what we received we give away strategically local national and international missions I think it's very important the second is the principle of margin proverbs 21 20 says in the house of a wise person there are stores of choice food and oil the fool spends all that he has so you never lived to your limit mark the definition of margin is the distance between yourself and your limits and you want to have a gap there so that you're not I never wanted to be up behind the pulpit needing that Sony's offering because you'll preach differently you'll lead differently so we actually wrote it into the bylaws of our church that a budget would be 90 percent of the previous year's income and those previous year's budget I want to make sure people don't miss that previous year's income this year's budget is based off of 90 percent of last year's income so we're going into the year with 10 percent margin and then you add on the growth whatever there is and the margins grow there now and margins not savings margins margin is just space so she actually can say yes to a lot of things so you can with a tragedy happens you have to take an offering you be generous that same day the tragedy happened you can if you have a building come available that and you have margins and now we've lived that way for this number of years and it's probably one of the greatest principles that we ever adopted I see more and more churches trying to flip to that and toggle to that do you have any advice to churches who are like yeah well we get a hundred percent we spend 101 or if we get a hundred percent we spend a hundred well is there an easy way to get started you just bite the bullet and you know drop that to 90 or can you can you baby step in what advice would you have to leaders on that pretty much to baby step in but it's no different than your personal finance with you if you're fixing an upside down budget in your personal finance you there's only two ways to do it you can either increase income or decrease spending the both really need to happen but what we know we can control is the decrease of spending so every church through the exercise insight you know what is not necessary what are we spending money on that's not producing or contributing to the vision whatsoever and let's just start so it begins with creating margins by just decreasing unnecessary spending and all of us have we have it personally and we all have it in our churches and militias we have huge margins now and we still do this exercise so we still take a look at the hole and say where you know what what can we do to create just more efficiency in our spending and so but then just do it one percent at a time I don't I've not known any church that's been able to do ten percent all at once and then immediately start being generous they immediately find strategic missions to invest in and cuz God supplies seed to sewers secular Christian says so he's got more but he's not giving his more to everybody hmm that's you know that is a very biblical principle is so true a supply see to people who know where to put it in the ground I mean who would you get seed to you to give it to the farmer who knows how to farm yeah so the God's no different he has more and he's not giving it to everybody he gives it to those who know what the more is for you know so Brad anything you want to add to that or anything you want to ask Chris before we switch gears and we go in a new direction it's so good listen I'm taking notes over here you guys keep going I'm taking notes I mean I I love the margin conversation because I mean that margin is true in personal friendships in personal leadership if you have margin in in relationships you you have opportunities to create memories you know like the margin in your schedule allows you to sit I would I would just ask Chris you know is that how does that how does that feed over into your own leadership when you say margin I'm guessing there's some margin that happens within the context of the way you lead either way you calendar things the way the leadership team is actually like setting up because that's that's equally as much a part of what I think effective healthy cultures are built on is that we got margin to do a lot of things and it begins with your time honestly the money margin is important but time margin can change your life so if you can create I caught the mastery of the morning if you can really master your morning ritual or your morning routine and whatever starts right usually ends right and a lot of us lose our margins and lose our lives by sent by our morning routine so for years I've been very disciplined in I just don't give that time away I use it for planning and thinking and praying and spending time with God and not being rushed but being more living a focused life actually used tools that I've gotten from friends like Michael Hyatt and others who just where I just if you can master that morning time and I think there's some genius to that honestly that a lot of people can incorporate same is true with a on the on a weekly basis with the Sabbath it's astonishing to me the number of pastors who would never think about murder or adultery but they break the Sabbath almost every week you know they don't really have a weekly margin that God instituted that was for you it's gonna make your life better and so that those that's where I think when I think about March and they really play into my whole life Chris I'd love to drill down on that I'm so glad we went there in the conversation this is a recurring theme on the podcast where I will breakdown pupils morning routines and it is counterintuitive there you are leading one of the largest churches in the country you know involve with the biggest church planting network on the scene right now plus some other initiatives and you're like no I don't give away my mornings and I take a Sabbath so can you walk us cuz there are people eating a fraction of what you lead who are just like I don't even have time to like change my socks right and so I would love for you to just walk us through what a morning looks like like can you break it down for us and then I'd love to talk about your Sabbath when nothing starts from me before 10 o'clock my mind actually works best in the morning so I don't get that time away I'm usually up around 6:00 6:30 some up there I know that's not crazy early but I just don't give away those first three hours I just don't give them away from me I mean if you really want to know it starts with I do I dress can I drink I drink a big glass of water to rehydrate first thing I'd do second thing I do is they get coffee third thing I do is I go straight to God's Word and let my mind let my heart just wake up and I journal for just like three minutes I have a ten year journal where you just you write three little sentences and I can see the same thing on that date over ten years which is a lot of fun for me I spend a spend time in prayer and then I actually use Michael Hyatt full focus planner and I write out my three the three big tasks that I won't accomplish today I don't get up in that chair until I've kind of reduced my whole day down to this day we'll be successful if I can have these three tasks accomplished and get those in my head and then usually go straight to my computer and put some thoughts that I either got in prayer or there's things while my brain is still strong and just got a you know it's real fresh in the morning I'm a morning person and then I get a quick little workout get a shower and I'm at the office by 10:00 so that's my morning routine and I never change it I just you can't get a breakfast appointment with me it just it just does not go happen you know and so and so no meeting starts at 4:10 o'clock and it's had to look different ways obviously it my kids were at different stages now my home is empty and so it's a little different now when my kids were younger I had to step into the you know and help my wife get some things moving in the house but but but by-and-large that's what it looked like all these years why do you think kazuma michael hyatt would say the same thing that there's something really special mornings I would agree and I was a relatively late convert probably in my 30 two mornings and do you think there's something special two mornings because we've got night owls listening who would say well that's kind of my 11:00 p.m. or whatever I've never been there I'm asleep at 11:00 p.m. I can't even think so I just love your take on that do you think there's some special two mornings well not to over spiritualize it but let me spiritualize it I believe in the principle of first I think everything you do first matters I think the first year matters that's why we have 21 days of prayer to start the year I think the tithe matters I think the fact that we go to church on the first day of the week matters I think you even even if you didn't enjoy you were saying God you're first I'm gonna come on 10 this event on the first day of the week so just to say I'm gonna start my week off spiritually versus all around me and so I just I believe in first so I do think the first thoughts of the day matter the first things you read matter so even if you get into the crack of noon that's fine but what did you read first what did you think first what did you say first so was it Instagram or was it you know the one year bible I think that matters so it doesn't really matter it didn't have to be early for people that are listening to say well I'm not a morning person well then fine but I do think you ought to monitor what you allow in your mind first and for you that's God's Word same thing for me absolutely absolutely you know I'd rather I'd rather him talk to me than me talk to him so I might my morning time my morning time mostly is him speaking into my life through his word than even me speaking to him through what's you know that that part is there but I love spending time in God's Word are you on your Bible person I have been for almost 30 years I still read yeah this and I and I read other things as well but that's just my baseline that's not what in two years for me yeah since 1998 and skipped it one year did something else but man that's really interesting can you walk us through your Sabbath when you take it what that looks like your day off and I wish I could say this has always been a part of my life actually had a little burn out in 2011 when I buried my own dad who was my best man in my wedding and the Barry Tami's dad my wife's dad who was my best friend in the world Billy Hornsby and just was burned out the church was 10 years old we were pedal to the metal for 10 years and I just had a burnout moment and and I and I had not been faithful to a Sabbath I am pleased to say for the last nine years I am incredibly faithful to a Sabbath and the Sabbath doesn't mean rest it means cease from labors so you can't produce just don't produce that's really the biggest concept is just don't produce don't do anything produce that produces so I didn't even be careful how much Bible I read because I'll turn it into a message it's it I'm serious I have to really care even in my devotional time on my Sabbath that sounds so funny because I'll turn it into work in a second and enjoy it but but to not produce and honestly carry the only thing I really have to make well really two things have to make sure I do to make it successful is is don't go digital I don't go digital the whole day so the phone stays off if you you've got to find me the old-school way you got to come find me if you want me and then secondly I have to be outside outdoors replenishes me so if it's gardening or golfing it doesn't matter I have to do something outside and and and so and honestly out for the past really I be married 34 years this year I've always included either a date lunch or a date night with my wife all on the Sabbath and so there's and you know that in the Jewish tradition the Sabbath was the day where you did you had your biggest meals you took long walks you see it included some sleep rest but it really wasn't around that it was around all the things that replenish your soul and I just think it's important what difference does that make to you since you look at you know Chris Hodges nine years with Sabbath and many years without how are you different because of that rhythm and that discipline you know when the Jewish people will teach it they say you don't rest because you're tired you got tired you rest so you don't get tired so it Rick so you don't end the week with the Sabbath so it's not the recouping of all the hard work you start the week with Sabbath you rest well enough so you have a full tank to go into the week and that's what I've noticed Kerry is that now I go into the week just with a full tank in my body and my soul and in my spirit and so I'm not kidding I don't feel like I'm catching up all the time in my mind and my heart when is your Sabbath what what actual day of the week do you take it's Monday yeah it's a it's a fun day for me so and and yeah because I'm I am that I'm the most tired after a weekend obviously and so and and it just has been a I know some guys you know do it you know later in the week I I really like the right after my biggest to me the biggest thing of the week for me is a weekend and that kind of ends my week for me that's Sunday ends my week and now I start fresh with a rest with rest on a Monday and then start on my meetings and things that I do in the office on Tuesday I wanna that was that was gold by the way just so helpful um I want to flip to next-gen trends because both of you spend a lot of time building in to next-generation Brad every time I talk to you you've got some gathering in London England or Colorado or wherever of just young leaders that you're building into and Chris I mean anybody who follows you on Instagram knows that that's a huge part of your life you're building into leaders 15 20 25 years younger than you and sort of the next generation of large church leaders and and other leaders as well I want to ask you both what is resonating with the next generation and what isn't resonating with the next generation we live in a pretty rapidly changing culture and church is changing culture is changing the way we express ourselves is changing so what do you see as some of the trends among the next generation good question I'll jump in and by the way this is the the reason this podcast and this medium is so hopeful is because I'm sitting here taking notes while you guys are talking there's thousands of other listeners who are doing the same thing so I love this medium a couple things stand out for me one is that younger leaders want they want access up-close compared to they want content from a distance and you know so the lesson there for me as a as a transition leader as somebody in the middle sort of you know trying to help older leaders and young leaders connect is as much as you can find ways to create environments where you're gonna be in person and in the room together and this is one of the things Chris does so well like you see a lot of times he's gathering 10 or 12 15 20 20-somethings or 30 something's and they're sitting in a circle and they're handing it out asking him questions Kerry you do the same thing like that's I think that's what unit leaders are starving for is they they don't I mean they're it's not that they're anti conference they'll still show up to gatherings but what they really desire and hunger is that chance to actually engage interact and I think a lot of that's because they're starving for Mentors there's a there's a there's a dearth there a vacuum of sort of spiritual father's that have been able to walk alongside them so that that's one that stands out for me unlike Chris jump in and I'll maybe think of another one or two oh no I totally agree and I know Kerry you've written on this extensively that the that you know we have reenact we're in a content and information overload and a hundred percent agree I think it's true by the way in in how we deliver church as a whole the people want more experience environments than than just informational environments I took I totally agree and and yeah first Corinthians four says that you know you we have plenty of teachers so let's just update that verse to 2020 and say we have plenty of websites we have plenty of conferences we you know we have plenty but you have very few fathers and we have and that's what it is what they're looking for and when I say fathers that's not gender-specific that just that means mentoring it in any gender that people are looking for that and and I am around a lot of the younger guys that are just starting out in ministry and some of the ones that are young and kind of you know blowing things up and and they they I get three four texts a week on how do you do this but what I do with this how do I answer this and they're longing for you know just personal coaching and and I ain't and I mean I'm 56 now that didn't even happen in me to be in that role so I kind of turned about 50 years old and and but I love it I believe in it and in some ways I didn't find more joy seeing them succeed than anything that I do and I think it's what the Lord always intended I think that's how I think that's how Jesus modeled his life you know he didn't him preach that many sermons he spent a lot of time with his disciples and and I think that's very important yeah and I would add this to that a lot of the things that we sometimes think are important or institutions or hierarchies that we we feel like are needed the next generation leader not not just doesn't even it's not even on their radar but they dislike that so as an example here would be one is you know denominations or the network nobody's asking anymore who's in their 20s or 30s and seems to have some influence hey what are you connected to like are you Baptist are you charismatic are you are you not a domination all are you Ark are you Hillsong like they actually just want things that are working and that are biblical so it's not that those it's not that those things don't matter anymore but it's not important like the where it used to be really important to us we would say as an older leader hey if you're not part of my thing or connected to who I'm connected to then I really can't hang out with you just the opposite now like we're actually more interested in hanging out with somebody who might they might think differently than we do theologically or have different backgrounds and so that's a huge one is if you're still stuck as a leader in I'm only hanging out with people who think and act and see the world like I do it it might be time for you to to rethink that because the young leader that's not something that's even on their radar that is such a good point and it's very very true I had a conversation yesterday with a leader next gen leader who's like I'm actually he flew all the way across the country and he said I actually need to be with people who I disagree with or don't think like me or they're from a different tribe do you see that - Chris oh sure yeah and and it's actually fun to be in the discussion because no one's defending their positions we're all learning from each other and I think that's what it should look like well I know we've just got a few more minutes with Chris and I want to really honor your time and you're gonna be with us in Atlanta for rethink leadership and we'll be able to pick your brain on stage but also through affinity sessions and table conversations and that's how we organize things but I want to ask you just about model shifts and maybe we can wrap that up and then Brad you and I can hang on and and wrap this conversation up when we let Chris go but love to ask you about model conversations because Church of a Hyland's in Church of the Highland story has like a model an approach to church but you're also mentoring leaders who have a different approach to church so what do you see changing and what do you see staying the same well what I'm what the conversation I want to have is be pragmatic so let's fall in love with our models or our systems if they're not working and I just don't let leaders defend something that's not working because I the other day we have an assignment we call the Great Commission you know so I so whether you wear I wear a sport coat if you wear jeans with with with you know hole in the knee that's fine I don't debate that if it's working do you think it's just bring people back to the conversation of let's be get back in love with the vision that God's given us to to get lost people say say people pastor pastor people disciple disciple people mobilized that's our assignment saying how you want to say it but that is our assignment and and it matters the assignment matters that's what we're on the earth to do and you know the Bible says that in 1st Corinthians 3 that one day our work will be shown for the quality of work that it was and you'll still be in heaven it says you'll study say but you don't want your life's work to be burned up I wanna I want to live my life you know making that assignment count so and then so the models are there to me those are the systems that I don't think we have the luxury of having a personal preference on well I like this what kind of doesn't matter what you like if it's not working you know so I just like having that conversation that's that's where I want to go with it so I love all the models I enjoy all of the different ways that it does work and again like I already said there I think there's almost every church can teach us something of how we can be better what we do but in the day it's for a purpose and I think I think I think that we need to talk about that more honestly is I don't think the models in the trends I think they're helpful but I think of the other day that we that the assignments not going to change that loss people need Jesus there still is only one name given under heaven by which men must be saved and so I'll do anything short of sin Oh what the model is as long as people are finding Jesus and you know so that I don't know if that sale or not but that's how that's how I think sort of it all really helpful Chris I want to thank you so much for being with us hey sorry before let me jump in sorry I do want Chris to talk before we eat before he jumps off about Highlands College I mentioned earlier and because this this to me is is such a distinct about Church the Highlands but it's also something that they've seen as a way to impact the next generation so just jump in and talk about that a little bit Chris because I want people to hear what you all are doing well simply put you know I I do think that the academic training of young leaders is isn't incredibly important but I think the best learning is not just in the academic setting I think it's in the life skill ministry skill setting they have to have a living laboratory to do it in you separate training from the local church you won't get a fully trained person we can both all of us can look back at what we know about ministry and most of it did not come from the schools we went to it came from the the people who spoke in our lives and the churches we served in up to this point so if you can combine the two the whole goal was to get the academic setting back into the local church setting so the two can marry together and and the goal is really for Luke chapter Timbers to the harvest is plentiful there are people who would get saved today there are people who eat a meal today there'd be people who'd receive prayer today if we had the workers to do it it's never going to be a harvest problem it's always gonna be a worker problem and so this is just a supply the Great Commission with the workers that are needed our goal and we're not there yet I need about another four to six years we're building it in the Academy model actually taught a religion class at the Air Force Academy and the Academy model they're a cadet if they're awake I mean they're if they're not in a classroom they're jumping out of an airplane you know they're there's it's nonstop training so they invest heavily like the government pays for the whole thing but 100 percent of the graduates go into their degree field so that's we we're only taking students to a hundred percent of them want to go into the ministry so this is not for marketplace ministry this is like you want to go to full-time ministry but they were trained you and then we're building an endowment right now to supply the the tuition that's needed so that that can happen so they can 100% can graduate and go straight into that harvest field so that's that's that's kind of where we are we have 1,100 students now but but that is the vision is just to supply the Great Commission with the workers that are needed that's awesome well Chris Hodges thank you so much I so appreciate everything that you bring to the wider Church to your churches and we can't wait to hang out in Atlanta so I'm gonna be grabbing very much thank you Chris okay we'll let you go dr. la manic I got a couple more questions for you my friend as we get going you can hop off any time Chris so that's great well Brad this is what is on tap right for us at the end of April in Atlanta yeah absolutely April 29th and 30th and May 1st when we think leadership and kiryat I don't know about you but man I'm equally if not more excited about this year than I have been for the last what five now this is this is number five I mean horse schultzy less McEwen they kind of brought down the house in previous years but you have simon Sinek coming so how do you know sign him is that from catalyst days it is that we actually Simon and I first met at a charity water event in New York oh it's got hair Scott yeah I was putting on one of his gatherings for some of the folks involved and and Simon and I ended up at the same table yeah well that's kind of cool yeah we connected and this was this was two thousand nine or ten and so we stayed in touch and obviously he he's become a global name I mean at that time and people yeah people knew of him but now everybody knows Simon and so it's fun to have him there I mean Gordon McDonald is gonna be with us mm-hmm I was emailing Gordon you know he's the coolest guy because we have this email friendship and I had heard rumors that he will start an email friendship with you so email a couple times a month just about what's going on in our lives and so he has this thing I'm gonna see if I can get him to talk about it called the view from Haiti and so if you listen back we'll link to it in the show notes but and he sent me a copy in September and when I met with him and then on the weekend he emailed me an updated list and it's just like the way eight decades of life this is what I'm seeing he says every few months I just update it so I'm gonna see if we can drill down on some of those points at rethink leadership and Gordon will be leaving an affinity session as well which means that you can get up close and personal with him right yeah and obviously Chris I mean you you just heard a snapshot of the wisdom that Chris Hodges brings to the table arguably you know among younger friends of mine who are who are when you ask them sort of who do you want to go hang out with and and really like a Q&A environment with many of them will say Chris Hodges these days because you can just tell from listening to that conversation there's just a lot there's a lot there both in terms of experience and wisdom but also just in terms of of the heartbeat of following Jesus and being a pastor who is actually pastoring pastors so that it's it's going to be a great year and I'm excited man to get to be a fly on the wall well you're more than a fly on the wall and yeah so we've got we got opportunities for you guys to register it's a tree think leadership calm Brad and I will be there hosting the event I think I'm doing a talk or two and it'll be it'll be a really really good time we got Andy Stanley Danielle Strickland the creator of Blue's Clues correct with that right yeah and who else who else we have Darius Daniels who else is serious here Cara is gonna be with this care pal she's you know she's usually part of everything Jon Acuff will be there we we've got a we've got a great list of folks who will be part so again if you're if you've never been to rethink you know part of the idea here is senior pastor lead pastor executive pastor and it's a curated group so 500 seats it's capped everybody's sitting at tables we want it to be conversational in nature there's there's no fluff I mean no hype no fluff no music no program it is it is stripped down leadership for two days and up impersonal one of my favorite sessions I think we'll do it again you and I talk about trends and it feels like we're in the round it almost feels like you know we're on the floor of the Roman Colosseum in the room we do it in and there's like 50 60 liters crowded in and it's just like take shots like it's it's a lot of fun so it's really up close and personal it's access and insight not just content and pretty much everyone's limited to like 18 to 25 minute talks so you're not gonna get some 40 minute keynote that went nowhere you were hoping it would go right and I love this phrase you do this all the time no sugar sticks what's a sugar so yeah that would be the talk you've done at every other conference out there correct or the sermon there's no sermon it sounds like you're not allowed to bring a sermon so right basically yeah we didn't we didn't we didn't get to hit on you're on some of your trends for 2020 that I listen if you haven't gone in and read the blog post that Kari put up you need to do yourself a favor and go go dig into that and actually print it off or email it to your team and have a conversation about the six trends that you said Kerry are the ones that you see as the leading disruptions for 2020 because there's so much there's so much wisdom and what you're what you're talking about but also how do we respond to it as well we could have gone there with Chris right like if you look content-based attendance will decline in movements moments and missions will grow like maybe we'll explore that a rethink leadership but that's a that's a for us to even with long-form podcasting it's like this could've been three hours like you know so okay your systems and your musical your systems and experience like that's a rare combination but I think it also paths pays paves the way to the future it's a path to the future and Louie Giglio and I talked about that on this show we'll link to that as well but growing churches would be led by younger leaders right that's just yeah that's a weird thing and the succession crisis will become more of a crisis and I love to see we could have spent time there because what is Chris doing he's got like a truly intergenerational team young leaders love being around him it's not a whole bunch of guys mid-fifties running church and yeah there's some other trends as well so we'll link to that in the show notes my favorite of this year is just I don't know Brad maybe we can riff on this before we we hang up today but the middle is disappearing from culture like you look at how disappearance of the mall the department store and the whole idea of these are average prices with average goods for average people and the the bottom end is thriving like Walmart is doing amazing like they actually are killing it and discount stores and budget travel is doing just fine and then so is the high-end like you buy 150 dollar yoga pants and like middle class people are doing that right which is really weird so the $38 yoga pant is not doing particularly well but the hundred and fifty dollar yoga pant the high-end vacation the curated dining experience with the weird pairings like those are doing just great and exotic travel is doing great but the middle is gone and what does that mean out of culture well I don't know because a lot of a shoot for the middle and the middle is where mediocrity lives churches do that businesses do that so I'm just paying attention to the middle disappearing from culture trying to figure out what that means for those of us who leave well and think about the middle as it relates to things like blockbuster or attacked the taxi industry or anything that that revolved around being a connector sort of the customer and the end product all of that middle has now gone you're right blockbuster was the middleman so to speak right like you can't get to Hollywood without and now it's Netflix or whatever but the reality is there's no physical barrier anymore and I remember I did that because we live in the middle of nowhere as you know but when we moved a decade ago 11 years ago into this new house we got high-speed Internet and all of a sudden I'm like oh my gosh my life has changed this was incredible and you know suddenly just anything you want right there it was cool think about the travel agent remember the days of calling your travel agent oh yeah actually and flight or a trip through your travel agent now you have so many options travel agents don't exist well it's interesting though yes and no because Adam Duckworth I just interviewed Adam and he'll be on the show he's reinventing travel through digital company travel nation and what's really interesting is that was another trend in another post I wrote on leadership trends but DIY which is one mode of travel is also now giving way to do it for me so you can call Adam at travel nation and it's like book my Disney experience and they're like what do you want Animal Kingdom or do you want Star Wars Galaxies edge or do you want this and then you don't even have to think and they get paid by Disney and by other organizations so it doesn't cost you more so I think there's so much opportunity and like most of us we're just living in a model that doesn't exist anymore what you said is true like the this the medium that represents mediocrity or or average is what's going away so at what album is creating is not it is a distribution channel but it's a curated distribution channel that allows you to connect to something that you wouldn't necessarily do on your own it's a higher end experience yes exactly turnkey solution right exactly for your family because if you're gonna drop I think he said the average is four to six thousand that a family will drop on a visit to Disney like that said that's a big ticket item but we're gonna treat you like a white glove service which is different than the traditional travel agent where you get stuck eating breakfast cereal at some cheap hotel and you overpaid for it so or you pay well and it's it's yeah a lot of you know I think I think I think I heard Seth's say this like the the the network hub the idea that that what used to be the network leader or the network hub was that you had information that other people didn't have and therefore because you had information you were in power I mean that every youth pastor in America right now your students are not scarce on information in fact they're they're fact-checking you as you're doing the sermon mm-hmm so no longer do you have power over them as a youth pastor because you have more information than they do they can get it faster quicker and actually more more accurate than you can so what do you have that you can now trade as an asset as a youth pastor is you have a relational equity like you actually are you're able to create things that are are more analog in nature and this is I mean David Kinnaman spoken about this you you guys talked about it with your interview of him recently you know that all of that's changing the way we approach how we lead and the curated leader is the one now who has the influence that the leader who's who's actually gathering people and giving them something they can't get anywhere else and the other thing you can get in that sea of information because not everything you read on reddit is accurate believe it or not did you know that I just learned that today not everything is accurate on the internet are you kidding me but what you can bring and this is one of the fun things about what I get to do these days is hopefully you can bring a little bit of insight and hopefully you can bring a little bit of meaning because information is everywhere but insight is still relatively rare and if you can guide teenagers if you can lead teenagers if you can help steer them in the right direction and you have that access to them and that kind of relationship where it's like well you know what about this that is what is sorely missing from culture and you know what what I love about rethink leadership is it is an opportunity I see it as a paradigm shifting event where we try to take the latest trends the latest thoughts and actually try to curate those conversations so that you get direction and guidance and insight that you're never going to get when you're just trying to get to Sunday get to Sunday or run and it's over to business leaders too but to run your business so anyway you can guys can go to rethink leadership calm Brad and I will be there we do this Tuesday night reception everyone's invited if you fly in early and we just kind of hang out and we can chat and connect and pretty casual vibe true story and I would say don't don't don't wait too long to register but you know there is it there is a price a price increase or a discount up until February 20th you maybe listen to this after that so maybe we'll still be able to offer you something but don't don't wait go ahead and get registered and and it'll it's it's gonna sell out it has every year so yeah yeah who wants you to have seat well Brad once again it's always fun thanks to my friend isn't it thanks thanks for curating that conversation and I got a lot of notes here from from you and Chris talking that I'm gonna I'm gonna think about for a while because that was I felt like a fly on the wall just getting to be a part of the conversation unless well you have some great questions you really did and I loved his morning stuff and you know what I'm true confession I'm for sabbath's into a Sabbath rhythm so that one owned me he's nine years I'm for all somewhere in our journey right we are all right Brad thanks so much man

Channel: Carey Nieuwhof

Views: 1,166

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: how to mentor the next generation, next generation leaders, how to lead the next generation, mentoring the next generation, the next generation and creativity, carey nieuwhof, chris hodges, church of the highlands, brad lomenick, rethink leadership, orange tour, good systems, how to set up good systems, can systems and creativity work together

Id: 1Fdd1HanxMA

Length: 64min 47sec (3887 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 12 2020