Cabinet Confidential

[Applause] [Music] over the years we've seen a lot of number 10 Downing Street from the outside a very little from within now on BBC 2 watch and learn as the truth comes out of the cabinet [Music] every Thursday ministers go to 10 Downing Street for the weekly cabinet meeting the Cabinet Room is the government's Chamber of Secrets and all those who ever served in cabinet remember exactly what the prime minister said when they were first asked to join we said to me you've got to put a cold towel on your head and work for six months and no gimmicks mrs. Thatcher asked me if I'd like to be Energy Secretary which I didn't want to be had a strong feelings he didn't particularly want to appoint me to anything but I knew he needed a young women and I knew he needed to get me on somehow in theory the cabinet takes the vital decisions affecting the lives of the nation but since Tony Blair came to power there's been a dramatic change in the role of the cabinet Tony's acting more like a president than a prime minister and in that situation the cabinet itself is dead the Prime Minister listens to the views of his cabinet the ears the Prime Minister he does make decisions this program looks at how in times of peace and war Tony Blair and other prime ministers have run the cabinet that has traditionally been the very heart of government [Applause] on Thursday just after the fall of Kabul this is the first time has ever been to run the war the top military and intelligence people sit with Blair's senior ministers and advisers the War Cabinet was meeting in the room where cabinets have met since the 19th century to declare wars and make peace the mood in the war cabinet contrasted sharply with the high spirits when the full cabinet had gathered for its last meeting of the summer session in July [Music] Tony Blair's cabinet where for the first time nearly a third of women looks very different from the days when cabinets were all-male and included many hereditary peers the cabinet meeting came on the day that had been announced that the Chancellor Gordon Brown was going to become a father [Music] [Applause] to join the cabinet means that you've arrived politically in theory the Prime Minister is first among equals and you are one of the equals all those who've ever had their own Redbox retain a vivid memory even after nearly a quarter of a century of the first time they ever went to number 10 for a cabinet meeting of course it was a great buzz I mean you know here we were on the threshold of what then seemed like an enormous ly exciting journey when it turned out to be enormously exciting journey but there was all the sort of excitement of a new opportunity of having one of knowing that you know if power is available to you in government you've got your hands on it I remember the excitement and walking through that number-10 door and the excitement of my colleagues that we were now in the cabinet in number 10 and we all sat there in our prearranged seats I was next to David Blunkett which was a great pleasure because the Lucy Lucius to sit under the table so I used to take my shoes off and put my feet under Lucy when they go into cabinet all new ministers are told exactly which chair to sit in the Prime Minister sits at the center in the only chair with arms the most powerful ministers sit next to or facing the Prime Minister in strict order of precedence and what about the order of precedence in a cabinet how much does that matter to individual couple of Ministers I don't think it matters very much I know I've never thought that really mattered it's not really first class people who worry about where they're sitting well they would all show a certain distance and disdain for such trivial ratings but they care passionately why well of course if it sees where you are in the pecking order out of a cabinet of 23 I think they're only two had been in government none of them have been in cabinet so to that extent it was new to all of us Tony said call me Tony and we just automatically did we done in opposition called each other by our Christian names as well as the new informality Blair planned a radical change in the traditional role of the cabinet he felt that a cabinet of 23 was far too large to be an effective decision-making body he wanted to work in much smaller groups and the most potent cabinet subgrouping of all would be himself in his longtime friend and rival the Chancellor Gordon Brown the pattern was set before the cabinet had even met for the first time Blair and Brown decided that the Bank of England should take over control of interest rates when the head of the Civil Service suggested to Blair he should consult his cabinet Blair replied they'll agree at the Treasury four days after labor had come to par with the cabinet's still not having met Gordon Brown summoned a press conference I will not shrink from the tough decisions needed to deliver stability for long-term growth I therefore decided to give the Bank of England operational responsibility for setting interest rates with immediate effect the government will continue to set the journalists have been told about the groundbreaking decision before almost all the members of the cabinet so I mean this this big decision to privatize the Bank of England the the cabinet didn't know about it well they were it wasn't discussed beforehand no I was privy to the decision they were good enough to tell me about it and I knew it would be a controversial decision and I think that's a kind of problem you have added you had a complete discussion about that and there's all the matters of the markets and everything else interest rates as an area where it's always been the prime minister some Chancellor's have largely made decisions like that there was certainly no disagreement with it yes but I suppose what people but we didn't have a sit down and put your hands up higher for this or against it no we didn't [Music] all recent prime ministers have kept decisions over extremely sensitive matters like the markets security and running a war to various small groups of senior ministers but for other major matters Blair's predecessors have made more use than him of the fool cabinet and all Prime Minister's have had their individual styles of running the camera Labour's Harold Wilson who won four general elections like to see himself as the player manager his cabinet team when I was Prime Minister in the sixties hardly a single one of them being in the cabinet I had to go and do everything it's like you know football taking the set-piece occasions goalkeeper here taking the penalties in the corners now of course have a very talented inexperienced cabinet even so I liked in all that's going on Howard Wilson style of running his cabinet was subtle and often tricky he would sometimes deliberately set Minister against Minister to try and ensure he got his own way this was no easy task in a cabinet of political big hitters from both the right and the left I tried to keep our party together for god knows how many years now and I did it by having all the extremes in the cabinet they were very interesting people in the cabinet when I look round and I think of Wilson and Roy Jenkins and Jim Callaghan and ten Crossland and Barbra castles on really they're really interesting people and I found those discussions were the best I ever attended in the sense that you were affected by the debate you might go with one opinion and train Loren in the light of the debate and it was that reality I think that gave cohesion to the government what brings you here the boss angers hello in yogurt and in particular I bring you all out in a moment from the star Margaret Thatcher knew what she wanted and was determined to lead her cabinet from the front mrs. Thatcher said she couldn't waste time with internal arguments in her cabinet and she was impatient of Ministers who sought to persuade colleagues in cabinet of views that differed from her own your job to explain to colleagues what the issues were and what your recommendation was you'd very rarely get through your explanation without mrs. Thatcher coming in to try and steer the conversation the way she wanted it to go and the only thing to do is to wait till she pause for breath and start again and in the end you had to steel yourself to do that I found it very difficult because I had been brought up in a traditional British way there's when a public school educated where there was a sort of deference to women you just didn't sort of you know take them on and in that sort of sense but one soon learned that if you wanted to be trampled underfoot that was the way to go she believed that every discussion should start with a statement of her own views and that's what happened and the way of course people who weren't used to arguing with a woman and they resented this fact because they thought it meant there was to be no discussion actually she saw this as a prelude to a discussion if discussion was needed if her ministers have been man enough to challenge her on policy issues she was there to fight them over it trouble is most of them ducked out they didn't like argument they were either too frightened for the implications of their future political careers or just didn't relish the concept of argument over the years Margaret Thatcher became an increasingly dominant figure in her cabinet those had once been her closest supporters were to be alienated by her abrasive and intimidating style in the cabinet chair I think sometimes the Prime Minister should be intimidating not much point in being a week floppy Singh in the chair is sir but I spent hours getting the facts I spent hours deploying them it was known it was my whole approach I was fascinated by statistics and having had the training in science first find the facts and then deduce your conclusion John Major consciously reacted against the Thatcher style his first cabinet was all-male and known as the cabinet of chums you don't have to shout in stem to make decision it's not always the people who shout loudest who have the most to say and is often someone who perhaps is a little reserved about putting forward an idea who perhaps has something that's wholly original that ought to be properly examined so I do encourage that it does often mean longer cabinets but I think that is worthwhile now John is an immensely consensual person I mean he first of all he'd have seen how not to do it and and wanted to have a reaction to that but he is by nature a guy who was he has his own very clear views he's very courteous and and very patient and does listen and treat people with respect and so the atmosphere changed overnight one of majors ministers said that at first it was like the release of the prisoners in the opera Fidelio they'd emerged blinking into the sunlight of real cabinet government but it was not to last ambitious young Euroskeptic ministers like Michael Portillo and John redwood joined the cabinet as the major government ran into stormy waters I was over the moon to become a cabinet minister didn't quite work out as I was imagining when I first joined it soon got the impression that the Prime Minister didn't like extended or lengthy debates in cabinet he felt they would be divisive whereas I felt that we we had some disagreements that needed to be aired and that we needed to seriously ask ourselves where we were going major grew to feel increasingly under siege as his divided cabinet began to fall apart under pressure when Tony Blair took over he decided to run cabinet in a very different way rather than taking contentious issues to the full cabinet Blair preferred to try and reach agreements in cabinet subcommittees were on a one-to-one basis with ministers how the Prime Minister's had also done this but none had taken it as far as Blair he inherited a situation where the alleged benefits of decision making at cabinet meetings had been exposed to be politically disastrous for the Conservative Party under John Major and disastrous for this country and the people who live in it in jobs here was terrible so he set his face against that perfectly understandably and worked with individuals or small groups of ministers or through cabinet committees and sell them through the full machinery of the cabinet look I would be pretty shocked if the first time I knew a cabinet minister felt strongly about something was if they raised it at the cabinet table I would expect them to come and knock on my door and say they'll tell me I've got a problem here I disagree with this or disagree with that and that happens from time to time and people do that and then you sit down II work it out the Millennium Dome provided a rare example of a big issue going to cabinet the dome was just a computer graphic when Blair came to power and the government had to decide whether to go ahead with the project it was still just a vast building site in Greenwich and six miles upriver Blair held a cabinet meeting he began by saying that he'd become convinced that the dome should be built but he then handed the chair to his deputy John Prescott he had asked to me they had to leave because he had to do the house a commerce church service I was a bit surprised and said you go into the church so it's well if you're leaving me say a prayer for me would ya it's dropping views about the Dahl attracted number of people were saying well if it if it doesn't succeed it'll be a waste of money and I have to confess I was rather more extreme than that my view was it three quarters of a billion pounds even if it's exceeded it would be a wasted when he compared with spending it on other things at the cabinet meeting Dobson said the best thing to do with the dome would be to fire it into outer space most other ministers were also against the dome although Gordon Brown suggested it might go ahead if some strict conditions were met I'm in the chair and I hear those views and report properly back to a prime minister the general view of the cabinet and how the debate went and then for the prime ministers to make a decision within two hours of the cabinet ending Blair himself arrived at the dome site in Greenwich for a major photo call along with Prescott and the Arts Minister Chris Smith although majority of the cabinet ministers in the discussion that morning had come out against the dam Blair announced that the project would go ahead do you communicate the discussion that had taken place but then the Prime Minister took the decision about to go ahead with the dome we did yes right I think about an hour too later we were at the Dome actually announcing that and looking at it but the cabinet itself hadn't taken that decision to go ahead with the dome well in the sense that when the cabinet makes the decision what we don't have is a vote on it there's never been a vote this is this mysterious areas of cabinet you take soundings and voices and I gave him the voice and I gave him what I thought the best possible position was and which would accommodate most of those views of the cabinet and he made a decision based on that I didn't have any resignations after did you we're gonna take a group in this we're gonna drive it through we're gonna make sure there's a permanent legacy I'm gonna make sure the postings are right make sure that the manage has jets passed over Greenwich Blair was asked how much opposition had been in cabinet to the decision to go ahead with the dome everyone is worried about making sure that the actual ideas are right Blair's way of running a cabinet contrasted sharply with the last Labour Prime Minister before him 25 years ago with the economy in deep financial crisis Jim Callaghan applied to the International Monetary Fund for a huge loan the country was in turmoil and facing bankruptcy Callahan's cabinet was deeply divided left wingers opposed the IMF loan and wanted a siege economy but the right argued that the cabinet had to accept the terms the IMF was demanding on which the government already decided with his Chancellor Denis Healey bericht at the Labour Party conference Callaghan decided that his ministers from the left and the right in the center should thrash out the whole matter of the IMF loan round the cabinet table I decided to have a series of cabinet meetings and allow every member to put him papers to the cabinet which wasn't really heard of it's only been and all the rest of him you know those who wanted to they put in their papers to have them discussed by the Cabinet and to allow anybody who put in a paper to be cross-examined by his colleagues Callaghan handled it very skillfully he allowed the whole argument to flow and because I had put up the grammatical alternative he devoted a whole day of the cabinet to my proposal and it was torn to pieces and a lot of some support it was defeating cabinet meetings on the IMF loan went on day and night over a period of two weeks for me was absolutely fascinating microcosm of the way that a cabinet works though probably much more rocky and uncertain in terms of the outcome the most modern cabinets which are much more controlled Jim Callahan zoo was let the argument all come out and then in the end will win a majority for the view and he was very successful in getting exactly what he wanted in the IMF though even in those debates we won a few concessions they weren't cuts in benefits that had been proposed I went through all that exercise and at the end I had a united cabinet Callahan had managed to secure the loan on the terms he wanted and not lose a single minister callahan was masterly even those who lost out on the argument couldn't fault him for being collegial it did show in Technicolor that cabinet government as political insurance in difficult times is probably the only way to do it when you really are under duress and that was duress with a capital D that autumn during Tony Blair's first term he had the advantage of a Callahan of a booming economy and a huge majority but Blair doesn't share the view that Callahans handling of the IMF crisis was the finest flowering of cabinet government in peacetime you know the old days of labor governments where I think that the meetings occasionally went on for two days neared a show of hands at the end of it well I mean I shudder to think what would be happening if we were running it like that Blair has brought the techniques that he used to create new labor into the way he runs number ten in the cabinet system he says a strong center of power is essential if the government is to deliver many more people now work for him in number ten and his closest advisors have become very powerful figures with white house style titles like the director of communications head of government relations and even chief of staff I think it's a lot to do with no new staff I always like to get my head to being like a law firm for him he was one of the partners he had half a dozen or less partners that he worked with and ideas filtered down through the business are you saying that these sorts of people who were not elected actually had more power than the cabinet ministers themselves not in terms of their own departments but they had more power relations to prime minister in terms of the cabinet because the cabinet seem to have no power they seemed to be operating instead of the cabinet it's not I don't want everything done by me but we have a program as my job as Prime Minister to deliberate and so inevitably if you don't have a strong center and you not keeping focused on what's happening in two part and you know you're not running the government properly but I don't know about this I've got a feeling with this thing that that if you have a strong idea of what you want to do and believe in pushing it through then you're a in inverted commas dictator and if you're not then you're weak and you know your pays your money and you takes you choice on that one but I don't feel myself I mean this idea that we don't you know that I don't discuss things when ministers or any of the rest of it it's just not true Blair and his team keep tight control over information coming from the cabinet his press secretary attends cabinet so he can give the media the official line and try to prevent leaks many previous governments like those of Harold Wilson had been seriously undermined by leaks from the cabinet and Wilson like Blair took a special interest in seeking to stop them Harold got really obsessed with leaks there was tremendous secrecy around the place and of course the Cold War meant that there was all that secrecy and all the rest of it but it was mainly politically embarrassing leaks that Harold would get furious about a member on one occasion we had the whole morning devoted to leech Wilson warned us and then the the discussion about leaks went on for so long we adjourned for lunch when we went out the Evening Standard said Wilson warns the cabinet so we all brought our Evening Standard earlier said held how did that get out nobody left the room oh I don't know said hell but of course he told the press that he was warning us about leaks [Music] as the years went by leaks from John Major's capita would have become a flood he began to feel isolated in number 10 as his authority was steadily eroded he suspected members of his own cabinet of leaking against him one in particular the suspicion was that it was John Redford but I couldn't be certain that several of my senior colleagues had said to me that they were very concerned about the amount of leaking they felt that John may be responsible simply because a number of the leaks came from meetings that he had attended but they didn't know any more than I did well I didn't leak cabinet discussions and I think it's wrong to do so although a lot of cabinet discussions do get leaked or briefed by prime ministers and their advisers that is a well-known phenomenon I think it is much better if these things are conducted privately in fact redwoods own chief adviser has subsequently confessed to leaking and many of John Major's other cabinet ministers and their advisers were also at it Tony Blair applied the lesson to the way he ran his cabinet John Major's government Italy brought down practically by the publicity given to Barney's at cabinet meetings and with all sorts of people leaking cows and so it had to go at so-and-so and six people had lined up in favor of this and five people in favor of that that was disastrous and I think quite naturally Tony Blair doesn't want that to happen with his government and so that's a sort of constraint on on what happens at cabinet meetings tony blair's ministers arrived for the regular Thursday meeting of the cabinet they're not expecting to stay for very long they know that Tony Blair doesn't see the cabinet as a suitable place for taking big decisions after lengthy debate the Blair does feel it's useful to bring his ministers together once a week both as a bonding exercise and to keep them up to speed on what's going on across the whole government I went in thinking the cabinet would be a body for discussion and debate it wasn't was the committee where's a meeting with Tony align what he was doing Gordon outlined what he was doing other senior politicians said their bid and that was it and she could have kicked off a discussion like I can anyone can he just said when it comes on the agenda you raise it so a cabinet governs about and I said this to you before cabinet government does depend of course having people who feel it members of the cabinet where you know this is the forum by which we make the decisions where we translate the policy determined by a movement and put them into government policy if you couldn't have discussion there what's the point of having it now if our analysis was right about what goes on in governor it's just a different cabinet design one I know fixed items on the Blair cabinet agender each week are reports from senior ministers I think John takes through the current situation in Northern Ireland as well which is a very critical stage where we'll see developments over the next few days right sure so Robin the only day we have confirmed this on Monday 22nd October when we'll do the remaining stages of the homelessness bill and to ensure that their publicity is coordinated at each cabinet meeting ministers are given the grid a detailed list of coming events in the following week although the cabinet sometimes holds political strategy meetings at Chequers known as away days at number 10 big policy decisions are not on the agenda cabinet no we discuss them yeah and then Tony made up his mind but you wouldn't the the cabinet wouldn't have have a big discussion and you'd then take a big decision in the cabinet I don't remember anything and it has the cabinet made any really big decisions as a cabinet well it's always dealing with these strategic matters as a cabinet well it's the way day or the day itself you know there have been some big issues that have been involved I mean europe's one that's mentioned of course day-to-day things about the steel industry problems that come out a car in this fear we discuss all those things of course i come but they're not as if it's black or white yes or no I mean they're just general updating and discussing amongst ourselves how how we will live with them at eleven o'clock just half an hour after the meeting had begun cabinet was over very short meetings have become the norm and Tony Blair's people say that because things have been going so well until recently there'd been no need for longer cabinets you in 1975 the player-manager Harold Wilson was in deep trouble there was to be a referendum on whether Britain should stay in Europe and his cabinet was split down the middle Roy Jenkins led the pro-europe ministers and Tony Bentley antes Wilson's cunning plan was to allow ministers to campaign on opposing sides and then he made this completely unprecedented statement that for this purpose and this purpose alone the cabinet would be free to breach the absolutely central principle of collective responsibility and it was so striking was that we all then got on to different platforms arguing with one another we all kept to the one issue of Europe the cabinet ministers in favour of Britain's staying in the Common Market campaigned across the country for a yes vote in the referendum I think if we come out we will be a country which turns in on itself which has no sense of responsibility beyond itself and I think if I may put it great where he directly I think that would break our hearts as a country we got a great future but we exercise that future not by sucking on our air but by working with others within a building in order to make the world a better place with orderly I believe the British people when they vote no in this arete referendum they will gain a new sense of liberation a new sense of their own power of their own prospect the anti-market cabinet ministers led by Michael foot and Tony Benn also crossed the country with a no campaign throughout the campaign it was a bit like being in limbo I was still a cabinet minister but your civil servants treated you as if you were I don't know I don't know suspended so I mean in that sense Harold very wise they allowed the freedom necessary for the government to survive he saw it was a way around the difficulty when he had a divided cabbages who didn't want to sack off of them after weeks of campaigning across the country on separate platforms Howard Wilson agreed that for the first time the two leading cabinet ministers could even confront each other on television Wilson had calculated that by sharing flexibility over the normal cabinet rules Europe needn't break up his cabinet I've said a moment ago in a sense that we must give up some of our political Liberty in order to enjoy the Liberty to decide our policies it was a civilized discussion in the sense of no hostility putting quite contrary views and then afterwards returning to the same cabinet and I think that was a very good example of what I would call the maturity of politics after Thursday we're assured by the Prime Minister that their freedom to argue at any rate in public comes to an end gentlemen thank you both very much again and good night John Major didn't have Harold Wilson's success in holding together a cabinet that was deeply divided over Europe he came at a bitter attack from the Euroskeptic Chancellor he had sacked and when it was suggested that major should fire a further three Euroskeptic ministers he revealed his frustrations in remarks that he thought were off the record John Major was treated extremely badly by the euro skeptics in the party Europe became the obsessive issue of that one element of the Conservative Party and they behaved disgracefully there's no there's no question about it there was nothing he could do they would they were out there leaking they were conspiring against him and that had got to him it was extremely unpleasant for him this was this was his own communist I no longer prepared to tolerate the present situation in short in his time to put up or shut up in the number-10 garden major had suddenly challenged his cabinet opponents to stand against him for the Tory leadership the arch Euroskeptic John redwood surrounded by a colorful band of supporters took up majors challenge he resigned from the cabinet and stood for the leadership on an uncompromising Euroskeptic ticket and all the time I was Prime Minister I would not bring proposals forward to abolish the pound it was a dramatic moment here is the prime minister who resigns and tells people to put up or shut up but when he was asked he thought that no member of his cabinet would stand against him hmm well I'm he who misjudged isn't he although John Major did manage to fend off redwoods challenge there was to be no lasting victory despite valiant battles in his own cabinet the divisions over Europe help bring about majors downfall when Tony Blair came to power he inherited the inflammatory issue of whether to abolish the pound and join the euro beneath the smiles at the very first meeting of the cabinet both Blair and Gordon Brown knew that the government would at some stage have to take the euro decision but so far the cabinet has had no detailed discussions about whether or not to join instead ministers have agreed to wait and see with a Gordon Brown's criteria for membership are met at the end of the day you are making a decision about the criteria as to whether you should you shouldn't and if you had a big argument about how we're going in tomorrow or not tomorrow you might have more controversy now you and I know there were a lot of differences around that table some of them quite strongly held but individuals may have made the conclusion that this is where we think it best to stand while we get on trying to deliver some of the other things Coffee time in the anteroom for Blair's latest cabinet don't mention the Euro has remained the watchword but the cabinet will have to discuss the euro question before long and once again the decision will be crucially dependent on the outcome of the often stormy battles between the Prime Minister and his restlessly ambitious Chancellor their relationship is at the heart of the Blair system of cabinet government but the body language between Blair and brown when they met in the Cabinet Room in July scarcely suggested that the two were in closest harmony Tony's always said you can't have a division between your Chancellor and and the Prime Minister is absolutely right to that and of course one of the problems in politics is you may have two people but they all have their people are the round them and sometimes you get quotes given from the side of the mouth and no nobody actually quoted which has led to certain tensions from time to time being involved in some of those greats myself so I understand them when you have two people that aren't working together and that's the Prime Minister and the Chancellor it doesn't lead to positive easy decision-making you know there's a battle going on and people support or people go to one side or the other and I think that is just crippling for a government and is that what was happening with Gordon Brown and Tony Blair well they were not happy the Blair Brown Nexus is central to the way this cabinet is run and in past governments the relationship between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister has had a troubled history because the economy in the end always goes wrong and the Prime Minister is it one removed from the management of the economy and the Chancellor is presiding over an economy that he doesn't actually control and so it goes wrong I mean it's it's the natural sort of way of politics but if if they kind of fall out publicly then then the the government the Prime Minister and the cabinet is in trouble if they don't present a united front even if they don't fall out publicly their supporters will fall out for them publicly [Music] but the greatest potential destabilizer of the cabinet system can come at times of military conflict an object lesson is the fate nearly fifty years ago of the debonair Tory Prime Minister Sir Anthony Eden Eden became obsessed by the Egyptian president Colonel Nasser NASA was an Arab nationalist who wanted to export violent revolution across the Middle East and destroy Western imperialism when he seized back the Suez Canal from British and French control Eden determined to take military action against Nasser we all know this is how a fascist governments behave and we all remember only too well what the cost can be in giving in to fascism Swanton Eden demonized Colonel Nasser II felt Nasser had betrayed him Eden was driven by a personal loathing of Colonel Nasser in 1956 which overrode everything else and it's very hard to curb a prime minister who's got religion on something very very hard indeed without telling his cabinet and needin forged a military plot with the French and the Israelis in strictest secrecy top men from the three governments drove to a house outside Paris to fix a complex deal to seize back the canal by military force [Music] British troops landed at sewers Eden's cabinet was still largely in the dark in London there were bitter protests and under pressure from the Americans Eden was forced humiliatingly to withdraw from sewers Eden broke all the rules of a prime minister in warlike circumstances he didn't bring his full cabinet into proper confidence so they knew more than they ever let on about the secret agreements with the French and the Israelis and so on he didn't listen to his professional military advisers because they warned him and told him things he didn't want to hear he allowed it to not just get personal but remain personal I think the Antony's inexperience shows you two things as money as losing a war is disastrous for a political career it was curtains for him and secondly I think a massive deception practiced against all your political colleagues is impossible to sustain and now can I just say thank you very much for all your kindness to me all of you during my Avakian resigned a cautionary tale of a prime minister who tried to run a war behind the back of his own cabinet 25 years later the Argentine's invaded the Falklands the surrender of the token force of British Marines symbolized national humiliation for the Prime Minister that I heard - the night when we heard that the white flags are flying over Port Stanley I lived at an intensity at a concentration that I have never experienced before or since not known for her collective approach mrs. Thatcher now felt the need of her cabinet around her at night she held a second emergency cabinet meeting in 12 hours it's a very somber cabinet I think everybody appreciated that if we had it added a military disaster - a diplomatic failure you know that would be the end of the Thatcher government that wasn't spoken but it was in everybody's mind and it was a very risky Enterprise eight and a half thousands of miles away from her four and a half thousand miles away from the nearest land base ascension was a huge undertaking [Music] the biggest naval task force since the Second World War was hastily assembled over a weekend and it's set off for the Falklands but mrs. Thatcher who had no military experience faced the problem of how to run a war if diplomatic efforts to reach a peaceful solution failed she turned for advice to one of her predecessors Howard McMillan had served under Eden during sewers and in Winston Churchill's war cabinet he said that it was a great mistake to have the Chancellor of the Exchequer and a War Cabinet because then people started to fuss about the cost of it all and that took your eye off the ball the goal of winning when you're putting soldiers sailors airmen lives at risk you can't be fussing about the precise details of how much each bullet costs or whether you can afford a replacement tank or something you've taken the decision to put your service man's lives on the line and you have to do whatever is necessary to make sure they're properly supported the members of her war cabinet with the Deputy Prime Minister Willie Whitelaw who was later to admit he had visions of Suez during the Falklands Frances Pym the Foreign Secretary was seen by mrs. Thatcher as insufficiently resolute but the party chairman sessile Parkinson was a Thatcher loyalist and key members were the defense secretary John naught and the chief of the Defence Staff Admiral Sir Terry Loewen she was a relatively new prime minister still was relatively little experience of military affairs and therefore needed the expert advice that came from the chief of the Defence Staff and from the Ministry of Defence for the decisions which needed to be taken as our troops abandoned stricken ships and made landfall in the Falklands their progress was agonizingly monitored by the War Cabinet in London she ran a twin-track cabinet system then they would have she would have an extra cabinet meeting usually on the Tuesday morning to brief them with her special war cabinet a subgroup of her defence and overseas policy committee proper cabinet committee doing most of the executive operational stuff she took the classic my old model of how to do it and she did it very well and she put on one side for the duration of that conflict her command and control impulses and played the collective leader very sensible very important [Applause] [Music] the victory parade in the city the Falklands have transformed mrs. Thatcher's political standing she'd started the war as the most unpopular prime minister in British political history if you look at mrs. Thatcher after the Falklands prepared uses natural before it's a different personality it's a much more confident personality much more aware of the powers of leadership and that various strong brand dominance if you like of Thatcherism the identification that the government with the Prime Minister it is a feature I think a War Cabinet plays a role in creating that sort of situation although mrs. Thatcher had won in the Falklands using the textbook model for a war cabinet she saw no subsequent need to behave in a collegiate manner and she became increasingly to dominate her ministers matters came to a head with her longtime rival Michael Heseltine who'd become defense secretary he believed that mrs. Thatcher was illegitimate Lee seeking to deny his right to oppose her and there was a showdown in a cabinet meeting the issue is the way she behaved and she tried to rig the situation I said that I cannot accept that conclusion folded my papers walked away and of course it was portrayed as storming out I've never stormed out of anywhere I am the most and a pancake you know I have a very very calm controlling person but nobody cheats on me wrong you to say anything at this incident I have resigned from the cabinet and I would make a full statement later today this whole time was the first minister in a hundred years to resign during a cabinet meeting but over the next four years mrs. Thatcher would lose a number of her other cabinet ministers after increasingly bitter rouse it's not a very happy cabinet that last one at all one could see it dis integrating in a way that as the number grew who did not share her view and the number who did melted away I one sort of sat idly looking around the room and I thought you know she'd be very pressed to win an election if the cabinet with the voters in the leadership contest provoked by Michael Heseltine mrs. Thatcher sought the support of her own cabinet ministers [Music] one by one in her room in the Commons her ministers told her they thought she was finished at nine the next morning ministers arrived for a special cabinet meeting they were to hear from the Prime Minister that she decided to resign there was a rather dramatic moment when one of the cabinet said you know Michel is guilty of regicide and she said in that amazingly frank way oh no no no she said it wasn't Michael she said it was the Cabinet it's quite quite a moment and after it was over there was a look on their faces some of them what have we done but it had been done there was no turning back Margaret Thatcher would let us say that she'd been brought down by treachery with a smile on his face she'd won a war and have won three general elections but she'd come to take her cabinet for granted and in the end when she needed the most they turned against her Tony Blair knows what it's like to be a victorious war leader but as the people of Kosovo chanted his name Blair could scarcely have imagined that two years after the Balkans he would once again be facing war this mass terrorism is the new evil in our world today it is perpetrated by fanatics who are utterly indifferent to the sanctity of human life and we the democracies of this world are going to have to come together to fight it together and eradicate this evil completely from our world what actually as far as the cabinet in the cabinet system is concerned once the the horrible events well the riffing memory of it I stood with Tony bland so it happened of course we were both at the tea you see and consequences of it were really horrific and that inevitably meant that government would obviously be meeting in Tony did cook call a meeting of the cabinet members Blair played it by the book first he went to the Cabinet Office to meet his key ministers and top security officials in the secret briefing room they put the country on a state of the highest alert in case of terrorist attacks Blair then called an emergency meeting of the full cabinet they gave total backing to the American war on terrorism since September the 11th the cabinet has met as normal once a week called cabinet in this emergency is reported to in the way it was on the Balkans and it gets more time to talk about these sorts of things that it doesn't some others like economic affairs for example but still it is a reporting to body rather than a serious player in this and the collegial nature of it is very much confined in real terms to the War Cabinet rather than the full cabinet the chief of the Defence Staff Admiral Sir Michael boyce is a leading member of the War Cabinet the Blair set up when the military action against Afghanistan began so Stephen land at the head of mi5 the Security Service is also a member and usually the Chancellor is in the war cabinet and is involved in cutting off bin Laden's finances another member is the overseas development secretary Claire Short who had initially expressed her public reservations about the prospect of American bombing the War Cabinet discusses the latest military and diplomatic developments there's formal war cabinet which is larger than the traditional model includes eight ministers and the heads of the intelligence agencies it has met once a week since the military action began along with Alastair Campbell in the War Cabinet the key link man with the White House is Jonathan Powell Tony Blair's chief of staff in a twenty four-hour-a-day war operation defense and intelligence officials monitor the progress of the war and at first light tony blair goes through their reports if anybody thinks anybody comes on this water inside i'm afraid they're sorely wrong because it involves an awful lot of two people in discussions whether in the official structure on the unofficial structure about how he prosecutes Brett and Britain's best interests in their circumstances the formal War Cabinet has a limited role Blair has regular meetings and photo with a key in a group of ministers and officials from the War Cabinet one senior minister says the idea of big formal meetings during a fast-moving war is outdated [Music] since September the 11th Blair has embarked on a dizzying round of personal diplomacy his aim has been to strengthen and hold together the worldwide coalition against terrorism the public aspect of this high-profile diplomatic jet-setting has led to accusations that Blair has taken his presidential style of government to new heights in running the war you in the armed forces are our frontline for freedom on Blairs trips his constant companions have been his closest number ten advisors Alastair Campbell and Angie hunter the fact that they rather than the Foreign Secretary have accompanied Blair on his diplomatic whistle stops has given ammunition to those who claim that the Prime Minister has been sidelining his cabinet in war as he does in peace he makes decisions with a small coterie of people advisors just like a President of the United States he doesn't go back to cabinet he isn't inclusive in terms of the other cabinet ministers and if he really wants to hold people in to support and get the support of the public and support of the Parliament there has to be work more people included of course Tony Blair's got advisers all round him politically military all sorts of people which influences preserve view from day to day after all the Prime Minister's from different countries presidents from countries ring in during the day and the night and he has to be kept up to speed with all sorts of things of course they play a role but the cabinet still plays an essential role as in to any government in cabinet government in carrying out the policy of the government with the Prime Minister listening to those views and making decisions he does it through the full cabinet he'll do it within the War Cabinet he'll do it within subcommittees on the cabinet dealing with domestic and political problems well yes I think there is a war cabinet which is in cabinet government I mean they're retreating cabinet as if it's irrelevant as if it doesn't work and it probably isn't working because I think Tony's acting more like a president than a prime minister and in that situation the cabinet committees cabinet itself is dead it doesn't have a function to play and what do you say to someone like no Mullen who says that cabinet government is now dead oh she's deaf this week in Downing Street the fall of Kabul was seen as a vindication of Blair's strategy and running a war like mrs. Thatcher in the Falklands he's used the official military diplomatic and intelligence machinery as a key insurance for a prime minister but since he came to power Tony Blair has downgraded the traditional system of cabinet government that he sees as old-fashioned and ineffective but the fate of mrs. Thatcher is an object lesson not to take the cabinet for granted just look round that cabinet table you think they're gonna sit there like sheep and not say what they think of course they say what they think but at the end of the day there's a major unity and consensus around the policy that's been put forward by the Prime Minister and there's never been any doubt about that if and when British politics does return to normal Blair's ministers will need to show whether he is so remoted cabinet government that it is now dead or whether it's been merely sleeping you

Channel: David Boothroyd

Views: 82,637

Rating: 4.7947216 out of 5

Keywords: Michael Cockerell, Cabinet, Tony Blair, Michael Heseltine, Mo Mowlam, Douglas Hurd, John Prescott, Harold Wilson, Tony Benn, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, John Redwood, Frank Dobson, Shirley Williams, James Callaghan, Gordon Brown, Peter Hennessy, Anthony Eden, Charles Powell, Cecil Parkinson

Id: wdAhv0D1_hc

Length: 58min 23sec (3503 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 26 2018