Britain's Greatest Fraudster & The Big Con: Tony Sales

like a blank firing pistol yeah okay it was all loaded up proper yeah but in my head I'm thinking it's this is right just to proper thing yeah and straight back up the hill yeah now at this point I think this gun's real yeah because as far as I'm concerned we've had it poured out it's been done yeah I'm walking to sweep the thing I thought that's it in the life now watch watch what I'm gonna do bang let one off yeah and then everyone scream and then I blacked out and that changed me because I've realized oh no I've got horrible violence in me I'm willing to do things that most people wouldn't do [Music] Tony welcome to show mate hello Dodge thanks for having me yeah very much uh looking forward to so I'm probably intrigued about you so uh I'm looking forward to this journey mate so let's roll all the way back where did you grow up and how did you become Britain's biggest fraudster uh that's quite funny that is so they always get it wrong so it's not Britain's biggest rules I mean how could anyone ever tell what Britain's biggest Foster would be because who's going to ever admit to that so uh it's a bit of um it got played out in the in the Sun newspaper as Britain's greatest fraudster so we just kind of run with a tagline really so I mean it just you know it works for Media stuff so it's really good but I was born in a place called Greenwich which is in southeast London uh it's one side's quite affluent the other side's quite poor unfortunately for many of the financial institutions around the world I was born in the poor part so um growing up you know like very quickly kind of you know a couple of days old my mum gives me a way to my grandmother she's just not able to cope she's 17 you know my dad leaves I'm now going to be just become another statistic really that's exactly what happened to me and then growing up I've got a really good friendship peer group um we're all quite tight friends and we all stick together and we was mischievous you know we would find mischievous ingenious ways of making money um so yeah it was I I you know I enjoyed my childhood I went youth club all the time like I hung around with all the local kids in my area where I come from even now is still quite a close-knit community you know like everyone's really friendly still yeah do you remember where you started earning your first pound note as a kid yeah like we would just do like you know I'd do anything from pallet collecting to car washing to whatever and then because I was holding I was hanging around with like a a couple of kids that were older they were more into like pinging windows and doing like other things breaking into places and all that yeah so because I was small I could get through all the gaps I would like so they like they do this is just train jar you know I've got to talk like keep dog keep dogging and you know very quickly it just progressed into all different types of things and once I've got a flavor for having a bit of money yeah that really kind of changed that whole dynamic for me and was it were you were you driven by earning money I was at the beginning yeah I was definitely I was driven by wanting to change the [ __ ] life that I'd grown up in you know like when you when you don't have your parents there like that and all the other kids around you have got their parents yeah you're kind of that kid always looking and going oh right and then when I I wasn't till about probably about two years ago I started looking at all my peer group yeah and all of us except one have kind of you know no dad got their mom or they've got they've got someone but a parent's missing and that that made that was a big realization for me that you know that stuff is going to drive what we were doing we was you know we found vulnerabilities everywhere wherever we went because we just wanted to make money whether that be nicking sweets out the shop or we found a stationers where we'd gone Nick pens like they remember the old fat tagging penis I just put a load in your coat and just walk out yeah um and that that's the life of criminality because you're getting involved and then what a Greenwich Market you know where I lived there was so many things we dipped the stools would for their pound coins all the notes or we're looking to try and Rob whatever we could because we was that type of kids and you just uh you know I mean it's a lot worse than now the kids some of the things the kids are doing but you know it's it breeds there I could tell by your eyes there that you got on a massive buzz from here yeah because like I'm living it like when I go back in my head like I can remember like summer because I know that we wasn't bad kids yeah we've done bad things but we was all in really [ __ ] situations so I guess that we just wanted to get out of those [ __ ] situations and that kind of really helped that like you know that stuff helped so I like I I do like I said I've got fond memories of my childhood I played street hockey with loads of different kids right up until in my 20s I played on skates going and banging the ball about because I was always quite energetic I've got ADHD off the chart um and it wasn't until later life that I get to use it for proper reasons you know so were you living with your nan all the way through yeah and what was that relationship like with your mum uh with my Nan's relationship with Mom no your relationship with your mum she was 17 which is really young to have a kids my mom's 17 as well yeah it's very very young there's still kids themselves yeah what was your relationship like with your mum yeah I mean it was pretty kind of like more like my sister yeah you know like and I guess that my mum probably wanted the love that my nan was showing to me but my Nan's just showing the love to me because she sees that no one's really caring for me and she's stepping up to that matriarch bit to really step up to the point I guess so um the relationship was fractured you know it becomes even more fractured as you go on and it it takes years to kind of get back and I only just after I wrote the book you know what did I get to talk to my mum about this stuff and say like look you know here's what I've wrote before it came out I said look you better read it and just see he's giving a heads up yeah I'm just going to give you a heads up this is what I've said Jim and she was crying like at the end of it she hung up and said it's beautiful son how old are you now time so I'm 48 now you're 48 and it took you 40 or 40 odd years to go and tell your mum yeah wow yeah because I'm raging like why like you know and then you kind of realize the penny drop moment is old on a minute my mom's dad left yeah my dad's dad left that's all they know and that's all they know so if you're uh you know it takes forgiveness I mean I'm a different type of parent I've got four kids yeah and I'll make sure that I'm on them but I'm on them I'm there for them constantly yeah because I feel that that's really important to do that um and I try my hardest and I've touch wood up until now they've all stayed straight but I guess that I don't blame them anymore because I understand it yeah but I guess that I was Stronger Yeah because of what I'd maybe my determination my name was a really strong person who just wanted me to achieve things yeah and she knew that my brain was good so she would always push me as much as she could sorry and did you ever fatherly figure growing up I did I have my grandad's yeah so that was my mum's stepdad yes and my step-granddad but he was like I didn't know any different I called him Dad yeah yeah like he was fantastic it's like amazing and where was your where's your old man uh so my dad was like he's gone off in it kind of you know left my mom had gone and created another family which is trying to move on with his life yeah as a man now I understand it yeah but like back then when you're a kid you don't understand any of that stuff um and then he goes off and gets his his my brothers and my other brothers which I'm quite close to I see them quite I haven't seen him for a while sorry but um I will do um and he he dips in and out of my life so I don't really get to know him until I'm 15. yeah he's like when he first comes around and playing hockey come starts taking us hockey on a Sunday like he's got a push like I'm kind of the kid that has got a dad if all of a sudden and I feel like kind of like you know and then you still feel left out of that whole situation so I still have emotions going on within me and because I look older I'm acting older like I said I've been I've been around older kids most of my life I have a different outlook on things so I I think our relationship then gets it just goes far apart I try working for him um it's when I go to my uncle actually so my dad had a factory done printing so it's really successful right in London in London yeah so they used to do like uh all different types of printing so they were doing this one was for Jurassic Park so I cycled all the way yeah from Greenwich to King's cross on my bike took me 45 minutes which is amazing really yeah um got there and I got in I'm late I'm 15 minutes late yeah so like my uncles all over me is like and then the Air's all scraggly and all over the Gaff and he says to me he's done me a massive favor because he says to me you'll never amount to anything yeah and I just I was so staggered by it because I'm just I've always been happy go lucky just getting on with things yeah um and that made me look at myself of what other people see you as yeah and then that really kind of I was like okay I'm gonna show you then and from that moment if you're wrong Everything Changes yeah yeah when you look back now at the age of 48 and you've written your book last year A couple of years ago did that book give you time to properly reflect on on your childhood yeah did you did you ever go back and find any trauma in your childhood on why you are like you are today or have you have been in your career it happened before my book yeah so I made a TV show called what makes a murderer for Channel 4 and within the show so before you so you made that yeah I made I produced that yeah so that was like mine and my business partner Adam right that was our baby show that we had for eight years it took us eight years to get that project on the ground and we brought in a co-production partner called dragonfly who are fantastic at doing medical programs and Tom came up with the idea of he came up with the name what makes a murderer yeah and before you know it like the show's commissioned and away we go and now we're in full production and it was fantastic yeah because I got to learn all of the stuff that people go through by sitting down with like leading psychologists leading people to deal with brain problems right and so I went through all the tests before the participants do and uh this is like three four months before you we actually even got into filming yeah and um afterwards when I came out of the room yeah uh I'm being nice to me like me and one of the other producers fell on we get on a tube we're actually going to see John Massey yeah to go to John's house to go and sort out some other stuff and on the tube me and Phelan have a massive argument yeah and like over nothing yeah and I don't even realize that what's just happened in the room triggered has triggered a load of stuff that I'm not aware of right and so but the guys knew so the psychologists come out the room and say to the rest of the team look I've just triggered a load of stuff with Tony yeah you need to be really careful yeah so I was like well I don't be stupid I'm all right I'm just thinking I'm getting on a ride but felon just said one thing they'll just snap yeah and she got it so I'm sorry felon but um yeah but I've said solo sorry a million times but I get it so what was it what was it made you snap it was going back in that moment yeah so when you're talking about so when you're a child yeah it was actually there's a bit where my mum when I'm a kid here so after she leaves my dad she gets with this guy we call him beta Bashar yeah because he used to he bashed a granny out of her constantly yeah in front of you in front of me you know for like I mean like numerous times she would be busted up yeah so when you're seeing that as a kid that is massively traumatic yeah how old were you roughly uh it's probably about seven or eight okay so I'll get him back now I've got him back yeah I've got him Batman not having none of that yeah I don't care about none of that I've said this publicly loads of times yeah I've got him back right and I don't regret it it is what it is because that satisfied the need in that kid when I got him back that was needed so we're equal yeah now we're equal yeah yeah simple and I'm a man now so like whatever anyway that is what it is right because you don't you can't do problems I can't go forward when you saw when you saw that filler smashing your mum about knowing that you couldn't do anything about hmm how many years did you hold on to that pain before you left you found him again seven years and I planned it yeah like so you saw it at seven at 14 you got him back yeah so 14 yeah what did you do I waited for him to come out and um he used to go shopping yeah at the bottom of my road where I lived you just go shopping and he'd always get his shot and go back with his bags so I knew so where he lived there's an Alleyway yeah so I just waited I bought this I bought a wicked bat yeah it's beautiful it's back yeah there's proper thing was like because I'm thinking about it yeah I'm testing the bat this is gonna wrap my hands have I got to do it like look at the depth of what I'm thinking I might even mad I don't care yeah so once it gets to that moment of when I'm waiting there he comes and I can see him looking at the right I've been there a couple of times and missed it like my ass went the first time like like this time I'm on him yeah and then as soon as you come around I just got the bat just done him bang bang whereabouts ran the head around the edge yeah right back of the edge straight around the back of the head like bang cracked him and he just went down boom gone and that's it I was gone are you off skis yeah did he know it was you straight away no does he today no it's you now it's come public it probably does he's dead now oh he's dead yeah he's dead now but I told him yeah I told him years later yeah I told him yeah because I said like I've seen him probably about four days later with a neck brace son yeah and all these eyes but I've seen my mum like that yeah good that's how I wanted to see you yes I've seen my mum like broken ribs and all that stuff so when I see him like that I told him I said good I got y'all yeah I got y'all like that yeah I'm a man now you know and so now he knew that so yeah did you tell your mum what you were gonna do no no yeah and when you've done it did you go and tell your mum you've done it yeah okay when did your old dear find out that you've done it uh I don't know if it was I think it was years later so it was I think my nan told her yeah because my nan knew I was off key yeah because I actually like she could calm me down like like it's like for the rest of us that were all off key yeah there's one person that could normally go hey stop yeah she was my one person yeah she sounds like a good woman yeah she was amazing uh no she passed away unfortunately yeah I mean I've seen her red butt geezers yeah quality so let's go for that room obviously dealt with that I think that was as calculated yeah that calculation then moves on to your later part of life when were you starting to realize that you because things don't just happen and go right I'm going to be a fraudster door's open opportunities open you realize you get an opportunity you see something you go well that worked and if I did that and tweaked that and tweaked that I could do that and that worked oh my God no one's on me when did that sort of come about we just had little waffles right we would just go around the Mana and we just had little [ __ ] things that we would do so sponsorship forms one where you've done is sponsored jump sponsored run sponsored swim responsible whatever it was wicked nickname yeah and though in the pot thanks yeah see you later and then back then it used to be phone boxes remember the old phone boxes yeah so we worked out that a playing card was the exact same size yeah what caught a plane playing cards yeah this card the width of it's the same width as the return coin slot yeah right so you could just put one of those cards in there and then people would use the phone all day and when the change was meant to drop it wouldn't come out of the return coin because it's stuck on top of the card so you just come along pull the card out because no one can see it and now you've got the change right and then like so you're just learning and then we went uh to Rich videos remember Rick's video before they became Blockbusters yeah um and we figured out that if you've done F9 if you took a film out yeah you could sneak back in and because the computers you could lean over oh yeah we'd lean over the counter and do F9 F10 return to take it off as if it had been returned back in and then we had a Giza to buy those films off of so like 30 quid because they were much more money though a lot of dough back then yeah yeah a lot more and if they were being shown to public that you had to pay there had to be a certain type of VHS yeah yeah so these were those ones because they were coming out of a proper video shot so what sort of age group what sort of age are you talking here this we're like between 13 and 15 we're doing that yeah and that and and then you'll see in the pound note getting bigger and bigger and bigger as years go on yeah and the scams are getting bigger and more opportunities but what rough what rough year was this are we talking so midnight easy yeah we're just getting into the night really yeah so there was a lot less CCTV there's a lot less Security on everything there's opportunities everywhere yeah and like I'm growing up watching Canary Wolf come on yeah yeah thinking wow what is that like we can see it's dead opposite where we live right and I'm like what I want in I want a piece of that I want some of that what is that and then I get we just start doing credit card I meet this guy yeah so the guy is really good at like credit card stuff so he works out the track two information on the back of a card which is the magnetic strip yes yeah so he works out you can take these and swipe them through so that to me was a massive way of upscaling business yeah like I'm quite confident to talk so I mean I can be chatty I can be like flirtatious and I can use that to my advantage to manipulate people to get them to do what I want right so I've got a few of these things and before unite they're in restaurants and cafes and and people are grabbing numbers and so now I'm making money digitally but in a physical way yeah before the internet's invented you know like the intervention and it's not even there yet and we're like I'm doing it doing it doing and I realize that I'm doing wrong but I'm making a lot of money yeah and that you say you're making money there you're cloning the cars yeah we're cloning you're cloning the card before anyone was cloning cards yeah we're at the Forefront of yeah yeah like and so how easy was that to clone the cards are you doing it yourself cloning yeah it's really easy I've done it the other day on BBC Two with uh Hannah fry yeah so it's really simple you can see it on catch up go and watch it yeah like you literally just swipe the card and then you get you've got this grab bar and it just processes the numbers so those magnetic strips on the back of that card they're actually uh tape you know like sound tape that they used to use and um I think it was IBM decided that you can put those on and it was made for the CIA yeah they made those for the cios a secure way of getting in the building but of course it's not really secure because because you can't hide those numbers there's no way I've encrypted them so that was a massive flaw in that security system but it was cheap and massively upscalable and that's why we got into society so mid 90s you were then going up to the Grands a hit yeah and then you're still getting the G's yeah okay and then yeah and that's when it gets properly exciting yeah but then you kind of get so back then the faces of the debit or credit cards yeah they look really rubbish yeah right like because you're only photocopying photocopies are just starting to come in yeah and you're now learning to mold it onto plastic and all that and they look really [ __ ] right um and then I met a guy who worked in Citibank right in the card services of City Bank yeah and that changed the game yeah like totally changed how old were you when you met him roughly um probably 19. maybe 19 yeah um and he like I mean your eyes must have lit up he bought me 10 right understudy but with 10 blank cards right and my eyes nearly fell out of my head because I've got that I had the ultraviolet yeah looked under the ultraviolet they got the MC in them the Visas have got the little birds and I'm thinking oh my god wow this is amazing yeah we're in yeah um and then I bought them off in by the drove yeah you know and then you that now it's a different thing because now we've got real numbers on real cards right that's very different yeah punched up signature strips that we can sign our own signature on it doesn't matter about this thing and they were really easy to get off your signature strip we should just get them off with hairspray yeah back in the day you would just go on a signature yeah a scribble don't matter it doesn't matter yeah and they used to do this look they used to have back in the day they'd have these yeah yeah that's right no digital connection they would literally have to ring up if it went over the floor limit to get the authorization yeah so you know we it totally exploited that and then that's when I found interest-free credit interest-free credit and that sort of come on the scene what late 90s yeah and they were kind of they really came from the stakes credit cards they realized by putting people into debt you can really get the economy booming right and this was something that they totally drove here and uh I just rode on the back of that boom yeah you know the fact that they wanted to give people money on you know for free for free yeah you know like all you needed was your name an address and a set of Bank details and some work information yeah not that they ever checked it so if you could get all I ever needed was a name and an address and then I discovered in the library they keep everyone's name and address because the Electoral role there is yeah yeah and once you've got that now everything else I can make up yeah there's no way of them checking it you know it's only in the last two years or three years that they've been able to check Bank Account Details against payees so if I said I could have set up a direct debit against your account yeah and your bank couldn't have stopped it it would have come out of your account so that's only coming in the last couple of years you know so like these things been going on in the background interest free credit yeah but I now pay never we called it love it love it tell me how you got the dough out and where you put the dough into so it was really so like why everyone's trying to get cash back you know like we I'd work with the cash but like for me cash was King for years cash was King yeah yeah I want goods yeah so I've got like like everyone is ringing me is going oh I want that new bang on auction TV yeah I want a new Philips one I want for you yeah can you get that so I'm send me the list send me the list and people just send me a list of staff and I'll just deliver every day I'm there I'm there I've got your stuff and like when you're doing that 10 15 times a day at three grand a pop yeah you're taking big money yeah and before you know it you've got Dole over the Gap so I would like I would spread my money out all over the place here and try and give this person over here stuff and keep it in a house and put that bit over there and like at one point I was renting nine different properties because I was so paranoid the battery could come on top yeah so will you give so for example I wouldn't I want to beg an old son back then it's probably 90s 10 G's always 10 grand 10 G's gives a bag and I'll say you know get mummies is a sofa were you and that's me so I if it was me I go well that's all we're gonna add up to 15 grand yeah you get me there what do you want from me I'll give you for you if it's 15 grams from the shop it's seven and a half grams always after night always yeah so you want seven and a half G's cash yeah seven and a half yeah cash you give me the readies and that's it and now spit up amongst the team and I got like a Batman and I had a team with like 50 guys working for me on a daily basis we'll just go around setting up cameras yeah setting up stuff doing whatever we're doing I I actually created a rent a van rental company yeah so I could put them on the road in the Vans and they would be out it just looked like they were removal men so you were taking the piss getting of development getting them out on the streets yeah yeah and bringing it all back so it was like a transport operation bringing it all back yeah yeah it was mad how many how many years were you at so what age group was when did that kick in for you roughly were you when the interest-free was going uh so I started when it was 16 you know that's when I first found it and then I mean you know I still got it just didn't stop no I mean it goes into cars it goes into mortgages it goes into absolutely everything because it's money so when you're going in to the shops before the internet you're going in and cutting the deals yeah name would be Dave Thomas Living in streatham wherever it was yeah what bank account would you lead that with the one so it didn't matter it didn't matter so you could get details so back then right so as it started as the internet started to creep in a bit Yeah you could Google because like you you exhaust so many different Avenues of getting and people back then used to throw their rubbish out yeah everyone's trying bank statements happening yeah I hope now no one's wrong thanks really important um so you you utilize that so you're tapping into all these things and then you know you find different ways so then back then you could actually go like this Bank details yeah and Google would throw you up thousands of Bank details in one hit I mean they block them all now yeah well on some they do but people still publish their Bank details if your company people publish them so that was part of the problem if you've got to pay us you need to find the bank details to pay us right so that's why they've set up this know who you're paying now yeah and that's why you have all that but it was really easy to get Bank details and what scale did you go to then you're getting mates and mates and mates begging off some get me that give me the TV get me the sound system what scale did it go up to because I would imagine the character you are you're thinking hold on man I want a more pound note I want a quicker hit I want a bigger hit what was it going up to it goes to I mean it goes up to like kind of seven and a half ton lutons driving man full of gear yeah delivering everywhere every day yeah yeah we've full on I mean my insurance was 1500 quid a month for all the Vans yeah the rent that I'm paying on the business was like a grand a month I'm not even thinking about it yeah because I'm making so much money that it's just irrelevant and I'm just squandering it you know like there's just because I'm just all I'm doing is I'm covering up all the [ __ ] that's from a young age but I don't know that yeah and then I get the more Johnny big potatoes you become the more you think you're yeah whatever you are you're invincible and then I go out one night with me mate and we go down to South End and uh there was a club down there um I kind of ad-lib it was called um and I go in there yeah that's a Sunday I'm raving like I'm bottling like having a good oh that's exactly I'm having a good old night and um I like a bit of cabbage music yeah so a lot of brilliant Gary's DJs in there and then there's a there was a bottle on the floor so I bent down to pick the bottle up yeah and uh as I've come up like this the dormant have just rushed me from all over the place here grabbed me in my throat and now they've just bang smashed me out the door I'm literally threw me in the road yeah like I was like wow what have I done I woke up myself yeah welcome to South End I'm thinking what have I done yeah yeah and um kind of get up dust myself down and walk back to the door because my mate's in there you know so why am I like he's got the keys to the car right so um I go I go back up to Dom and Dom and just says go away mate and I said for what he says you're drunk I said I'm not drunk but even if I was isn't this a place where you're meant to get drunk yeah and you didn't like it yeah and he slapped me around my face like I was just a girl and that triggered like oh no man that like nah that same thing for him with that oh that's back you think you can I'm coming mate watch yeah and that's what I did so I went back to my car and in my car I had a what like a blank firing pistol yeah yeah it was all loaded up proper yeah but in my head I'm thinking it's this is right just a proper thing yeah boot in the car can't get in the car can't get in the car anywhere my mate comes out he goes shut up you idiot just get in the motor yeah so he unlocks the motor and when I got in I sat there I was fuming yeah I was absolutely fuming and I just opened the glove box got the gun walked straight back up the hill yeah now at this point I think this gun's real yeah because as far as I'm concerned they've had it poured out it's been done yeah it's all loaded sweet I'm walking to sweep the finger foot that's it in the life now watch watch what I'm gonna do yeah and then as I'm walking up he gives it Larry again yeah so I just backed it straight away and went Yeah Bang let one off yeah and then everyone I screamed and then I blacked out yeah I don't remember it I don't remember anything of what happened until the next day I watched the video in the police station right of where then you see me going mad them all running yeah and then I get place on police down one knee so then you have to get down on one knee I'm behind your back and then you put the gun on one finger behind your back here and then they rushed in yeah and then the cop has I'm watching this stuff I'm so embarrassed by what I'm seeing it's just I'm just an absolute div yeah an idiot of what I've just done yeah I'm looking going oh no the guy's going you're in a lot of trouble I'm thinking oh no I I just went is anyone dead is anyone dead he went no it's a blank fire I thought oh God thank goodness for that wow and that changed me how old were you 22 22 22 Yeah like that because I've realized oh no I've got horrible violence in me I'm willing to do things that most people wouldn't do and because of the disrespect exactly the same way that the kids are doing it now and all these things that happen now I'm one of those kids so I'm disrespected I feel disrespected I'm doing you mate yeah and the fact that it was a blank fire the fact that all that stuff was there that's the best thing that could have ever massively because I get I'll get another chance yeah imagine if it was you'd make your video I'll have at least a 25 for what I would have done that because I was just yeah like the video was ridiculous anyway yeah so anyway I'll go um I get 15 months for that in prison and they gave you 50. they gave me 15 months in prison and then six months of that I spent with a casino cheat yeah call Frankie defazer yeah his name was she that was his proper name I mean this guy was so funny yeah he's hilarious yeah it's like on the vo he put the dog's name down on the vo yeah he had a massive argument with him he said why can't my dog I wanted my dog to come what's wrong with you like it's so hilarious yeah but he kind of he sparked my brain going back into my old days Tony frauds yeah I'm thinking what could I do that's what's coming like where can you go with this yeah and then when I come out from there I tried to get a job tried to be normal we'll Nick were you in I was in belmarsh yeah so what did you would you do off of it seven and a half uh so I've done a little bit longer than that because I lost a month's remission why uh because they found a rope in my cell uh so he's quite bad actually Razer Smith was on the wing with me as well at that time he's a Smith yeah so um he's coming on oh he's he's amazing race I love razor yeah because after it all happened to me in jail yeah razor come to me put his arm at me man just went look come and look at this and he showed me all his debt [ __ ] I've never like because he no one ever talked to him because he was so scary looking yeah and he's on a life as well I'm only doing 15 man I'm only in there for 15 months and I'm on a life of sport yeah yeah so I was skipping yeah every night yeah because I want to get fit yeah yeah keep fit and uh they CA they find this rope here and um they gave me a month's loss of admission months loss of earnings months loss of canteen and two weeks goad in the block yeah so that was just a liberty good order and discipline so then why why are they giving you this because of the rope and the Rope they're thinking about suicide yeah no I'm in belmarsh yeah so they're sat in your so my jobs were so I mean when I look back on it it's hilarious I do think it's funny and screw said to me and used to come I promise you you'll find it's funny and he was right yeah um I worked on The Yards so I used to have to go and pack the bins right right so they thought I'm trying to get one of my mates out who's one of Britain's first double A cats yeah but I won't he's only come to the he's only come there from the mount to do a course right yeah I'm not doing anything like that why my missus is pregnant at the time yeah like with my son why would I want to jeopardize me getting out on tag yeah but like once they searched myself when I was out working on a yard they found the rope and then of course it's a security risk together I come up with 55 yeah tell me tell me what's that listen you're a you're a next criminal right but you're not a criminal in a kind of you're not you are but you're not at that point at that point at the age of 22 a youngster yeah going in there tell me what it's like it's a 22 year old kid getting a cat a and then going in the block uh it was weird like when you you know what yeah I mean I wouldn't wish you on anyone you know they make you squat on a mirror yeah that's the [ __ ] worst thing ever like it's showing you dignity is just gone like oh thanks mate like I got no dignity like because you're a criminal because you're in that way and yes like I get it we can be extremely devious extremely violent yeah all of that stuff but there's still has we are still human yeah and there should be a part of it where you get treated like human but they're you know I I haven't been to jail for you know 10 15 years now so I don't know what it's like in there now um but uh it's definitely a scary place and it's definitely somewhere that I wouldn't want markets to go because it you know even on that sentence I learned so much it's like another University that wakes my mind up to go I can do that when I get out yeah you know and if you're not strong-minded you're gonna fall into that yeah so how long are you how are you in the block for uh two weeks well and that's what just four walls nothing else four walls nothing else I've done yet I arranged with a listener I was going to pick my wrists with a stapled only thing I had on goad was a Bible yeah and in the middle of the Bible you've got the Staples yes I pulled the staple out of the Bible and I picked my wrist and said to The Listener walk past and say oh he's cutting his wrist here because I just want to get to the hospital uh Wing so I can have a burn and I mean listen to the radio even because I haven't even got a radio right um and then yeah so that's what happens and then the screw comes when he tells the screw the screw comes like this and he laughed I thought wow look at him yeah because it was bleeding quite a bit yeah and like then um they took me to the half to take you to the hospital Wing yeah and then uh they took it to the hospital wing and I stayed in just a padded [ __ ] cell yeah it was worse than the block but at least I had my radio and uh and I had a bit of burn so at 22. yeah what was going for your red there you met the filler with the casino what did you learn in Nick at that time to know that when you come out you're gonna be at it again that I'm not scared of Nick you're not okay yeah and once you're not scared the Nick nothing's going to get in your way okay because it like once you realize like ah like we all think like you know I'm not when I was a kid I used to fight every day yeah yeah so when you're getting a little tuffle you we all think we're like ah until it happens yeah so like I kind of don't have that fear so I've seen guys in jail that I thought were bigger names out on the street and they folded in situations and you think oh wow I wouldn't fold it in that situation I would have held my own in that situation yeah like so you start to learn things and then you realize oh look actually that's not bad like you can I can get a bit of burn I can have a phone call I can still do what I want yeah and now you start to realize so what's the risks yes involved in this what's the ROI for me yeah yeah what is my return on investment for this yeah and like most normal people don't think that criminals think like that yeah but every single criminal I know yeah before we do a job we're all got adrenaline we're all going to the toilet and [ __ ] ourselves yeah because that's how you have to do it to get out and to go and do it you've got do right but you're prepared to do you might not talk about it but you're prepared to do whatever sentence comes with it when you're committing that crime because you've already thought about it yeah yeah said what did you know then the route you went out when you come out at 22 what was the route you went in and what was the consequences for you getting Nick did you think in your own mind going you know what if I do that and I'll get clobbered for that I want to get a three I'll do a year and a half but I've got a load of money stash was that going through your mind like that yeah okay yeah I'm thinking like that I'm thinking yeah calculator yeah calculating them again yeah I'm back going okay if I do that what's the worst that can happen and like I've been talking to a gardener mate I just stole 1.5 million code and got six months yeah I think what what are you talking about well what's the point of this life like and then you know you kind of get out there and you start doing things and again my peer group like you know none of them have been caught up until that point either they're mustard like yeah they're slick yeah yeah no one's catching them because they're in the zone because that's the real level of a real high level criminal isn't it yeah might like the ones that ain't been caught are the real serious ones yeah mate so like there's not many of them no they're very real when you see them and you meet them or you know them you know they're the real deal yeah yeah there's not many of them you're one step ahead yeah they're always one step ahead and that's because they they think like that and that that's a learning you know like and as you get older you learn that yourself yeah um so when you come out 22 tell me did you get jump straight back in uh no look at the fraud did you go no I went to get a job I went and worked my dad at a cab office or he worked at a cab office with this in burmansie yes I went and worked there um tough area birming I loved it wow I Love Burns I love it I'm not a millwall fan I'm a man united fan but um yeah it's true it's true it's true um yeah so I um yeah I love birming I loved it I I just loved working around I loved the people of Birmingham city like they really kind of so accepting there's so understanding people like proper people and so I stayed around there for a few years and then there's proper people right now so you meet proper people around now yeah and I met a proper person right now and we started talking and before you know it uh I'm back at it again and it's much more lucrative than cab driving and I'm proper light with I was taking money out from over the country with a bank my mate had figured out some woman's stuff yeah come to me said can you get a girl that can do it and I said yeah got the girl and then she was amazing and like I'm at the end of the first week my side was bigger than this and the whole thing was full of cash and me and him were just looking at each other going wow look we just drew that all out in cash room everywhere have you drawn it out uh so we had the person's ID yeah and we was telling the girl to do it I got the girl to do it yeah my mate had got all of the ID so this was like the early days of what they would call now I can't take over yes yeah so now you get someone steals your money from online this was us doing it in person in real going into the bank and doing it yes physically doing physically taking the money yeah okay um and so we got that good at it that we would order the money to certain branches to get her up to ring her to order the money so you know you're going in and getting the money and that like once I saw that money again I was kind of backing the game um and what else could I build like where else could we go what sort of numbers were you talking are you going to hit would you find out going I Doris 15 grand a time was it 15 yeah if you're phoning up Doris I've got uh what do you call it coming in in 15 minutes can you have the money ready for me yeah because this is in the early days remember this is like this is before yeah now you trigger anything you got over a grand they're all over it now yeah but back then they ain't thinking nothing like that it's their money and they're entitled to it yeah yeah so that's how it was and like I guess the differences between those days and these days as well like that person never lost her information it got stolen right whereas online you can lose your information and that now becomes your fault yeah all of those victims back then would have got their money back because it wasn't them yeah the banks would take the responsibility for it 100 stood on that responsibility yeah otherwise I wouldn't have done it yeah yeah because you don't steal other people's money that they can't afford and I've never ever done that up until that point I mean we actually had the conversation about it at the time and we spoke about it so we knew that that would be but I mean nowadays it doesn't happen like that because if you lose your online stuff or someone gets into it you know they'll investigate it but nine times out of ten it's going to be you that has given them right yeah yeah because you can only ask so what's the score I don't want to move too far forward here but what's the score with uh credit cards you've got a credit card do you feel like you're got a safety net when you buy 7 for 10 G's for a credit card they can come back on the bank your credit card can that's different okay okay so your direct debit is your debit card is your responsibility right because you like your debit cards you're lying to your cash yeah I normally say to people if you went to a cash point you drew out a grand yeah you lost it five minutes down the road whose faults that yeah it's not the banks is it yeah so if you've given your information to someone and they use that against you right that's your fault yeah and the banks up until now have been very courteous in giving people back their money and they have to put up with a lot of flack that they get in the Press because of it but the truth of it is you've probably been on a site and your information has been compromised yet or somewhere you have put your information has been compromised and if you can find that link we're starting to see a lot more of these ambulance chases we call them the suing of losing you know if someone loses your data you can sue them yeah um as we get further into this these are the sorts of things that will come back because if a company lost your data Dodge yeah and and I bought it off the dark web and used it against you and stole your money yeah that can't be your fault yeah okay that has to be that company is full yeah but it's getting into how do we Trace that back yeah and that's the really complicated side of all this at the moment so yeah so it was very different types of crimes I want to I want to know when you're going in and picking up 15 G's a pop were you going around just London doing that or were you thinking I'll just go Oxford today let's go read in a day let's go down to Portsmouth Bournemouth and East London I've been down here loads of times oh I bet it yeah at it because you're getting when you're going in back then you're talking probably late 90s now early 2000s CCTV it was useless useless it was just black and white and didn't matter yeah and like the images of like no one so one of my mates got nicked yeah and uh his lawyer brought up so this is our criminals learn stuff and yeah his lawyer brought up a really so he looked a bit like George Michael yeah right so the lawyer just said well it could be George Michael yeah yeah and so the jury have to agree that well it does look a bit like George Michael in the image it could be and just because he looks like him is that him or is that other people because now he's proving that someone looks like someone else very smartly and that kind of always made me think ah [ __ ] the CCT yeah okay yeah nowadays is a bit different when you were when you were doing that with your mindset coming at a 22 and you probably at it for [ __ ] well you're at it for a long time was there a point in your mind where you're like if I get clobbered for this I know I'm gonna get a three or five or seven what figure what what amount of years was it in your mind I always had like probably on the first couple that you know you're gonna get maybe 12 months two years yeah because they don't Club you for fraud in that way and it like the way that we're committing it then yeah it's re how are you going to pin every single person's one that I've stolen on me how can you do that because their investigation they just don't have the resources to do it back then they don't even talk to different departments yeah different counties so like they can't do that stuff so did you know that did you know that yeah yeah obviously yeah yeah we know that yeah even now the communication ain't amazing it's nice Dreadful still yeah but it's because of resources in the Batman and that's why we hear a lot of words that come out yeah so gangs we keep hearing county lines and all that stuff that comes it's because the police need to get the fund in to deal with the problems right but unless they've got the right buzzwords that gets them into the funding they can't get it yeah instead of just the government going oh look really you need this yeah yeah because that's what it is there's a team of people let's go and clobber yeah you know how it goes yeah companies working silos yeah when they break everything down into different departments you know sorry but crime don't work like that crime's just cut into the chase yeah and that's what they need to understand to deal with it what's the movement after that at the banks how many years were you at it doing your 15 G's just so that one probably lasts for about nine months yeah like they all doing and they burn and they the bank find out and stop it from going through and then you flip back to something else and then I started doing Rolexes um and then you kind of you know you started doing just go and get Rolexes I'd be the Rolex man what you want a Rolex Target if you know Rose what ones you want daytime on no worries yeah because only everyone or anyone who's serious here and watches only ever want to Submariner yeah or a daytime there's only two watches that anyone ever wants yeah or a Cartier tank Frances something like that and you'd go arms again that's a 35. yeah there you go yeah so but like I mean I always used to find I don't get when don't know where these mad prices come from yeah because I always used to find daytonas for like 5400 quid because they're in a shop window you get them in an Ernest Jones yeah they're twinkling in the window there you can just get it because they have to sell so many of them a year anyway and what were you doing you're getting it in going in with ID yeah claiming to be the person and just putting them on to buy an airplane ever easy I love that bye now and then the next movements from there did it go up again or did you get thing old on me they're hot on this now you're just going around so like I'm doing like so I'm doing this constantly yeah like and I'm just living my life I'm going through this and I'm meeting loads of different people and then must have been about I suppose it must be 25 26 we get caught in Sheffield so we're in Meadow Hall Shopping Center in Sheffield which is like a huge yeah it's like Lakeside on steroids yeah it's massive if you had his place and um we go in now yeah and like there's loads of us yeah but they've got one like salami back then I'm hitting orders for flat screen TVs and there's just one TV that I want it's a 47 inch oh no sorry 43 inch yeah uh it's this set one Panasonic because I know I've got orders stacked up for them and I can sell as many of them as I can get yeah so I think there was something about three nine three thousand 999 quid in the store yeah so first load of blokes go in bang they'll get one yeah load of others go in they'll get them yeah so unbeknownst to us the girl has got suspicious at the counter of a load of blokes from London in Sheffield all buying the same Panasonic TV so I'll go up and I go all right yeah how you doing like I start talking in Scottish yeah like and just like she doesn't even notice that I'm going for the same TV because we're just talking like in in general and then that's it I'll get the TV don't even realize that it's on top yeah go out and then my mate gets another TV from another shot but it's a 50-incher yes and now he needs two of us to carry it yeah so I'll go and meet him in a minute I put my hands on the TV the old Bill had been watching us all day long yeah and then they just come out from everywhere yeah and my mate like so when they've got like I've got all of us took down all of us apart from two other guys right so who are sitting watching the whole thing unfold laughing their asses off at us really um and then so we've got two Vans parked in different car Parks right and they're both full with Goods they're both stacked up because obviously we've been having it right off um and that's when so my mate goes they ask where are the others so my mate guys they're over there yeah and then loads of them to like more loads more copies even so clever my mate yeah because those coppers just come out so we're seeing how big their operation is against us yeah and then so we go back to the station and then you get the you you know we're taken down like my mates have gone away my mates watched them instead of burning the Vans out yeah and the bands have got IDs in them so I've got a hundred driving licenses 100 utility bills in each van right and about 500 credit cards between both fans right all stuck because you've got to have if you're going properly you have to go properly right so I've got everything stacked up in there I'm thinking oh my God if they get that stuff we are proper [ __ ] yeah yeah um so I'm thinking ah no they're not burn the fans out they didn't burn the fans out yeah um anyway six weeks they bail us for like as soon as they bowed us for six weeks we know they're gonna go for conspiracy yeah um so we kind of it was more than about damage limitation of what what I could do that's what I was thinking for myself yeah and um we went back into interview and then like did I just kind of was like look I gave him a written statement and just said look I'm gonna go guilty at cool anyway because I'm gonna go guilty but I'll go guilty trading in the betting yeah not trying to just just soften the blow somehow yeah yeah and then my brief was right she was really like she was a bit Dopey this brief that I used to be honest I mean the Barrister was fantastic that I used after you and I will always be grateful for him what's his name uh his name is David Webster yeah so he's an absolute Legend mate like I loved him even after when I can't we'll get to this bit in a minute but um yeah he's a really good guy but the the the the solicitor first of all Fighting the [ __ ] life out of me because she said like when we walked in because they she must know at that point they've got the Vans but she can't tell me there's no disclosure yet like she must think they've got the fans they've got all the ID you are a proper professional outfit yeah but she don't I'm gonna play a dildo yeah I'm gonna be a Divi yeah and just be like I don't know I'm a driver I don't know what you're talking about what like ah yeah I don't know yeah because why wouldn't I do that yeah I've got nothing to prove yeah of course yeah I'm going to just damage limitation yeah and um so like she they were having none of it having none of it and it's battles and Falls battlefields anyway they battle for six weeks we come back six weeks later and then they charge us with conspiracy to defraud um at which point like I kind of like ah here we go like so but they had so one of the workers that they had yeah that was working for us sneagle we called him yeah he um he he got very ill um so it's sentences so what happens is yeah my mate my other Cody Goes On The Run yeah he's the first one to go on the Run yeah I'll jump down run the following week later and then sneagle shows up to cook because he's a good man yeah and he's going to suffer his sentence but because he's been ill and because we [ __ ] off the judge takes leniency on him right and that went in my favor years later yeah because I didn't realize that once the judge sets a precedent for the case wherever you are in the conspiracy has to have a level of the same you can't give you one thing yeah and him another like because then that just would be they couldn't give him a yeah totally outrageous yeah so he's done you a massive massive I'm thinking [ __ ] man I could have probably just got like a year or something yeah like if I'd have known that then I would never ever have jumped out and then but my wife is pregnant at the time with my daughter right I got up until that point I've got three boys yeah I'm about to have a girl yeah so uh decided I'm gonna jump bow and I went on the run you know I don't fought I stayed on the run for six years six years six years yeah you're on the run for six years yeah so you know like I said before about the violence coming out of you once I do the gun incident yeah crime kind of came out of me on that sentence yeah because I realized for the first time so after you know three months after I get jowed yeah get caught yeah so David Webster the reason I'm shouting out to him is because he actually comes and represents me six years later again yeah and was like Wow Tony you didn't have to run yeah look this is what happened and he that's when I find out what happened to Terry I know Terry's got 18 months but I didn't know about the setting the president and all that stuff he was like you idiot why did you run for you and at that point I'm like I've just probably ruined my life yeah thinking I've ruined my life not realizing that now this is going to change your life this just happened yeah um and that that's what happened you know I get I'll go the judge gives me 12 months yeah so like I just told the judge my story look the only reason I've jumped out is because my wife was pregnant yeah my daughter is now six years old look she's over there sitting there with my wife yeah I wanna lie I didn't know like I've just got things wrong this is proper ruined me going on the Run was the worst thing I've ever done yeah because it like as a father I've got to keep all my because think about what I know about the trauma all the things that have impacted me yeah like I want to keep the kids stable of which I did you know I controlled all that for six years but keeping them stable your mind must have been non-stop right it's all over the game like thinking what was the mindset like at that time within that six years was there a point you thought you know what let me just go and myself every day if I was just painful I can't handle it in my mind anymore every day mate every day you'd wake up feeling oh I just had enough because you just because once you do that like I don't know what I'm gonna get do I yeah I don't know what I'm gonna get there was like I got arrested with someone else on another case that I didn't realize that it dropped off as well because if they don't get you in a certain amount of time yeah if it's minuscule they have to let it go so because there wasn't enough evidence to tie me to this case they couldn't do anything with it and that one had dropped off but I was more worried about that one than the one that I'd actually been nicked for because of other implications that could have occurred so as as the years are going on the worry and the fear must have just grown ridiculous amount yeah I mean when was the point then after six years you know I'm going I'm gonna end in it's like didn't happen like that yeah so I go to meet my mate in a petrol Garage in Essex yeah and I've been smoking weed like all day I'm not smoking to get there in the car I might I used to have a little green polo like a naughty guy it was hilarious and I'll pull into this guy who's got a pair of shorts on flip-flops like t-shirt and I just walk into the petrol garage like filled up my car walked into the petrol garage and as I walked in there's two coppers just sitting having their lunch and uh like I walked past I could just feel them sensed it yeah I could sensed it and then like turn around like I haven't even acknowledged or looked at my mate yet yeah because I know that they're there yeah so I walked back out and as I walk out they're um they're kind of uh all right can we have a word sir like that yeah so I was like ah yeah so they go what's your name so I've given me Moody name that I've got yeah it's all good I got it all briefed up [Laughter] take a pic number 77 number 42. the first name was Tony it was one sort of Tony somewhere yeah so I gave all the information I've got for it right and he goes he just looked at me and he went you've got two warrants out for your arrest yeah Sony grab me wrist and then at that moment relief yeah yeah I feel drained mate if I'm honest results yeah I said can I have a [ __ ] yeah I said I just want a [ __ ] man I'll be all right I won't give you no headache or nothing you know so anyway then I end up like I said I go to see back to Sheffield in the sweatbox on Saturday morning the other court case I deal with for 300 quid fine blah blah blah um so yeah I go back to um go back I go back to jail come out and then how long did you get then so I've got 12 months on that got 12. did a six uh I've done a little less because I've got a tag right so my wife comes to visit me and when she comes to visit me she's holding my son's hand right who was seven or eight no no he was ten then yeah and he's just crying right and as she walks over to the table I'm like what's up with him what's he crying for like like kind of still trying to keep a bit of the jail Persona thing like what's up and uh she goes what do you think like you're in jail again like would you that's really good for your son isn't it and at that point old trauma that I've now had my whole life I've now put onto my own kids and I realize it in that moment yeah and I feel that I've let them down something I never wanted to do something I I never intended to do you know like and that changed everything because I actually went back to the wing and like our wind was wicked you know I had a really cool Wing yeah um she's not called me in jail but like the people that were really we was a good bunch of lads on that Wing yeah um and I go back and I'm like yeah I'm going to work in fraud prevention is that what your mind that's what my mindset went straight over you when you were in Nick at that last time uh so when was that so uh that was 15 years ago so 2010 I got out so yeah so what are we now two 12 years ago okay so yeah so then you come out what was it for you straight and narrow yes kind of no totally property for the first time properly clean ever um so not even a little minuscule of anything yeah came out and um was like so whilst there was loads of things that had happened like the houses had all changed I had a flat where I live now yeah and the flat was um like it was there as like a home like uh we hadn't had a home before yeah because it's not being on the run and all that stuff yeah and then I get there and I've got this like home yeah mate yeah and I'm like oh this feels good and um one of my mates got me a job with one of our other mates yeah who had like a little sweet shop yeah and I went and worked in the little sweet shop but I loved it yeah I loved it I loved it because it's been mates yeah and they own loads of them yeah so like they're like I don't worry about just do what you want right don't worry about nothing like I'll be there five o'clock in the morning I'm doing the papers right and as I was doing it I started to look at fraud conferences and like where could how could I get involved in getting in the other side you know still like grafting and then I've got another job where I was doing now Drive in the evening yeah so I'd go and do the job in the morning and then go driving in the evening so I'm doubling up my wages just trying to earn money just trying to survive and get by and then I do like every couple of hours I'd get I'd build like a little presentation I learned myself PowerPoint yeah like every day just sitting down going through it I'm quite computer literate so I'm all right like that and was like okay I can make that fit there and then just kind of put this presentation together and then my mate was filming a documentary about dangerous dogs and I come and I go with him to uh go and see it and it was like you know he's like oh they're gonna love you brother like they'll love you they'll love you like so we go there we're sitting there and I end up talking to this guy called will Fairman who now is like one of the big cheeses at vice TV yeah um massive massive life you know they're not even called Vice back then they're called VBS yeah they're just this trendy kind of company coming through I mean will just started chatting yeah it was just like you and I are chatting down we've got on really really well and he said I'd love to make a documentary about you and I said really what about I said I'm boring what do you want to make a document you ain't boring you definitely ain't boring yeah man and I was like but I'm just being mean he said but people will love it and this is as the you know YouTube's a new thing then yeah yeah this is all new so I say coming in let's do it and we make a show called how to get away with stealing yeah uh it's got like 11 million degrees Yeah ridiculous views now but it gets cold status because at the point when we made it nothing's been done like that ever it's the first time you can go and search the internet there's nothing before it ever yeah that comes yeah it's the one of its kind and it gets shared by so there's a a really famous uh American hacker well he's not a hacker he actually creates something called The Silk Road yeah which I'm sure that most people have heard of yeah the Silk Road is like the first one of the first dark Market sites on the dark web and it was run by a guy called DPR The Dread pirate Roberts who they believed to be a guy called Ross Albrecht and his last shared video before the fbb I take him down is my vice one so like there's loads of comments on it yeah like this is dpr's last chance video like so it just gained momentum because of that even more you know and that that that drove it and then my business partner today uh Adam boom who is absolutely an amazing person I love Adam he's totally flipped my life properly and loads of other people's lives properly he's just an amazing amazing she's always been straight so Adam's like a Hollywood um TV producer like you know he never ever told people anything but I mean he kind of like he's edited some high-level Hollywood movies yeah he's been involved with some serious stuff over the years he worked as he spent 30 years taking difficult subjects and making them explainable on TV yeah yeah there's a massive Arc to it keeping things simple and massively respected in the industry you know I've walked into many rooms with Adam and he's a hugely respectful person so um so yeah so joining up forces with me he sees me he sees me on the sun shows him the vi stock yeah and he's like look Dad I think you should meet this guy and he comes to me reaches out to me on LinkedIn where he says that you know most Criminal um so and then I kind of started to monetize you know bits and pieces I've always public speaking I do a lot of public speaking um I started off doing the public speaking circuit just you know you enjoy the public speaking yeah I like it I like sharing the stories yeah because it's just your story in it there's no tweaks this is my story and people will love it yeah people I mean like and like I get mad bookings I'm kind of like it's really weird I've just come back from Saudi Arabia so you walk into a room of like all like higher level ministers and stuff and they're like Tony hello can I meet you and like they wanna like it's really like whoa yeah um but like it's so I always say yeah there's no glamor to crime we might be talking about it now and we're kind of like in a moment having a little laugh and all that yeah but that's because we're in this moment laughing but I always want people to remember crime's not glamorous man I was sexually assaulted I got bullied madly and my mum and dad both left yeah I'm just a minuscule bit of trauma there's people out there with huge amounts of trauma that are much worse than me yeah and we that's where we need to get to understanding of each other side of the fence yeah and once we can get to that good place that's what I'm all about that's what underworld's about that's what all the things that we do within what we do is showing people how they are every criminal we know has had huge amount of trauma somewhere there's so I actually asked this on what makes a murderer hmm I asked this to uh the we interviewed loads of different psychologists yeah to talk to them in forensic psychologists to have them either as was actually looking for Vicky's person Vicky's the woman who's the who does the interviews with guys um and the leading guy in Britain the only reason we couldn't have him is because he was a male and we had to have a male and female uh I asked him I said how many murderers have you interviewed that don't have childhood trauma and he said virtually no exceptions and that you know when we we all heard it the whole production team heard it in the room yeah there's something going on yeah right you know and when I hear we're going to be tough on the causes of crime that always makes me laugh of what are those causes of crime you know like and how would you go back to a little kid yeah he's a little kid innocent of course a little kid's innocent there is no nothing's born bad I hate when people say people are born bad it's rubbish no one is born badge it's impossible yeah they can be born different yeah yeah and then if you wrap the environment around them that is going to create it then yes you should expect that you bang you hit the jackpot and before you know you've got a problem yeah but no one inherently is born bad yeah you said you said a minute ago I rolled back a bit and he said you're sexually abused as a kid yeah where how swimming baths um different kids that you pick up with at swimming bars you get with what you think's their dad and then before unite things are happening all over look after the Lifeguard at the swimming baths you know all of that stuff but I talk about it because I feel it's important to talk about because I noticed I definitely notice other kids yeah that happens to you up and down yeah and like look but I ain't spoken about yeah they don't talk about because no one wants to talk about and even if you mention it to your parents you're like you might get a little don't what are you talking about like but the reality is you should talk about those things if they're happening because you just bottle them up and for me that that just drove like loads of other bits he just wanted me to get away from my [ __ ] life wherever I go even a bit of enjoyment I'm gonna get at a swimming pool is none of enjoyment because of the memory because of that yeah what age group roughly was that uh so that I mean I was going I was the kid that always used to win the little swimming party because I was like swimming like a fish even now I swim like a fish yeah um so they would always give me that pass I would go and train so I mean I got I was going swimming from seven to probably 11 on my own every day at what age were you if you could remember that that triggered a memory of did you hit an agent went [ __ ] I've got six of your booze and I was seven eleven was there an age I don't think it ever went so you always knew when was the point where you took it out your subconscious because you're probably trying to suppress it to actually having your conscience to go that's actually sexy abuse I told someone when I was younger I think when I was probably about I don't know 17 or 18 I told someone what happened yeah and their reaction to it kind of made me suppress it okay um and that like because you don't know like how someone's gonna react to the stuff because at the time you're feeling that your selfies yeah you feel dirty yeah I mean like but it's not really that um so I guess that yeah it wasn't until I got older that I I you have to deal with it because you've got to deal with it in your head and how have you dealt with it what can I do about it okay right because my reaction to doing something about it goes back to whacking people around the head with baseball bats yeah and ended up in jail yeah so if I allow my anger to take over I lose yeah yeah and I don't want to lose so what I'll do is I'll talk about it I'll write about it and I'll highlight it in whatever way that I can and that will make me feel better about it yeah that's really perfect it's not just powerful for you but it's powerful for people listening yeah because I lay your mind there'd be hundreds of thousand listening going to me and I've never spoke about it or I have spoke about it it triggered someone they gave me a dirty look and I thought am I the bad person you know it's kind of that isn't it it's a horrible snow yeah yeah and then like you know so when they trigger it in what makes a murderer they triggering certainly yeah elements of it you know at that point is when I start thinking about the the emotional side of it and that takes probably a couple of years to deal with the emotional side of it all coming out but I'm definitely now that Set Me Free like set me free because now my brain's off I'm not caught up with all that now I'm like no I'm like oh hold on next week we're going to start the app we're going to start here exactly and everything else all the stuff like that do you remember like I'm going back to when your stepdad was smashing your mum about and you were calculated to go I'm gonna get in Monday I'm going to get you one day I'm gonna get you one day and the day popped up do you remember the people's names at those swimming baths yeah man you don't yeah mate of course I do have you had a look where they are who they are maybe [Laughter] um yeah yeah yeah of course I did yeah but then like it's hard not doing it of course like it's hard not to in like sometimes yeah like I like like you know the reason being so now one of my business partners here is an ex-head of fraud for the Metropolitan Police right I love that by the way one of my business partners yeah is ex oh bill yeah the fraud department I love him like this he was the boss you couldn't write you couldn't read this story no you couldn't have wrote it no this is a mess though you've written it and Gone full circle and now you've got all these boys your partners yeah because I suppose they know that I'm saying the right stuff and I'm really talking about the realness of just watching real one big like you can't move forward until you've put it all out there and moved forward it's out there this is it yeah I don't I'm not I don't care what you think of me yeah yes I've done bad things yeah but the reality is you might not like me yeah but I promise you I'm going to do good things I'm going to change the way that a lot of people think and that was the journey and that like when Andy saw that yeah like it just makes sense so I always think of Andy and Andy always says to me doesn't like the you know the pedophile hunting thing yeah he hates it because he says so he says in court so you know these people that go after pedophiles yeah right so he likes the normal normal fellas normal fellas going after Peter picking up the phone talking with young girls and boys pretending to be yeah okay like so in the beginning yeah I'd get involved because I want to help him yeah yeah like and I want to like I try and help like a few of them look look do it like this or think like this this is where the chatting look go over there because we've got more tools yeah we've got resources yeah so Andy taught me very rare to get a case yeah yeah how how long do you want him to go to jail for yeah what is it you want to come out of that output yet and I never even saw that before and he taught me that and so he's right so so you're just thinking those dirty [ __ ] I'm gonna I want those pedophile actually yeah and whenever I'm actually getting nicked and do they get alongside the end of it for your energy yeah for my energy yeah and what so what is the worth of it yeah so and then once you realize that life's going to [ __ ] those people up anyway as well like Karma I definitely [ __ ] one of them up properly yeah so like I can smile in the fact that you've got Karma to [ __ ] me good yeah like and that makes me breathe a little bit easier but again look it's raising the subjects raising the topics yeah and if it's happening go to the police and get it dealt with you we don't need the Vigilante stuff to deal with it because the police can deal with it and get it and get them nicked but I get it you have to go to the right cop bar instead of the police want to do it what is the things of it that's the thing what is How does it go we've just nailed it on the head yeah there's not enough old bill number one the old Bill secondly we'll look at that and go oh we'll deal with that one day because we've got bigger things to deal with yeah so you've got to give respect to some of those people as vigilante is going out and going to do that to bring it out listen so those don't think they can't get away with the whole time I listen yeah it doesn't I'm not bothered by it but if I know that Andy as a like especially as the head of police yeah yeah he would have seen figures coming in going look none of them get all of those cases because of yeah we would have got because of you and it's only that I've had those conversations I mean I love what some of those guys do because it's amazing and they they put their stuff out there to do it I'm never going to criticize those guys for doing it yeah lots of those guys have the same issues of what I've got and that's how comes they can tap into them in them same way so I love what they've got the trauma from a young kid yeah that hasn't been dealt with yes and cleared up for them to be able to afford as an adult yes or maybe they have cleared it up and this is the way that they see us being able to give back and deal with it yeah but the reality is look don't get yourself in the police force or go to the police and demand that you do it because we're thrilled I bought I started my own agency yeah yeah and I made them come to it yeah I made the police because okay I'll play by your rules but you're going to have to do it my way otherwise I'm not doing it yeah yeah so like and that once you get him into that position like anyone who's anyone going after old ladies and kids yeah I'm in yeah yeah I don't care what what it is you sneak old ladies money Nick Kids money I mean I'm coming for you personally if I can find you or at you I will come for you I don't care about that so because it's really important but what's more important is to train all of those kids and old women and make them less susceptible to be actually happening and that's when you get to a place of resistance yeah things can happen in a much better way and that is a process that we need to learn with all of this stuff in in the way that we are as humans you know like most people say to me where are you from like you did you normally I'd go I'm from Earth yeah where are you from because all you're from what man-made borders man-made money man said this is England someone we you and I weren't everywhere mate we was never here when any of that decisions was made right right so the um of Earth so I want to be of uh flat and all of those things once you let the hole I've been there I've never let money corrupt my life I've let all that stuff realizing that oh look didn't really make me feel better the one thing that made me feel better about myself was dealing with the problems that I had and then I could move forward and then you know I'm not driven by success I'm not driven by any of that stuff it doesn't bother me either way I want to go back me and you in a restaurant having a bite to eat one of those abusers coming to the restaurant you clock him what'd you do ah nowadays I'll just leave him there's nothing I can do because like would you better look at him would you just block him would you everything spinning for your mind could you flip and go check them out yeah yeah I suppose all of that would be there all of that whole stuff if I'm honest would be there um but I know that my control would be in full control and not flipping into that zone to go and do something because you learned years ago what the consequences are for the actions yeah and those consequences would be a lot more yeah taking someone out yeah that's gonna go a totally different than that that's going to not stop that's going to be Dreadful yeah so like it's best that we don't go down that road and I don't want to go down that road you know like but a lot and having you know getting on with life just getting on with life and not worrying about those every days it might spawn my meal but it's not going to spawn my life yeah man you know and it's knowing that in that moment yeah look I can move on and walk past this so I want to know now the last 32 come out Nick you've had a proper eventful life ups and downs and over before you went away what were you doing with all this cash spending it just spending it it's having fun just to do I've been all around the world I've traveled loads I've had like loads of exotic cars and done like all mad stuff and like enjoying it did you find that easy come easy go yeah yeah yeah and and is that because you're giving to others and giving yeah I love giving to others like I've always had a nice feeling there yeah especially when yeah like around my way mate everyone will say like I know we love him man because he like no he gave me a car like I might like he just showed up and gave me a car like you know my mate says it all the time he says like yeah I'm like my mate actually says you weren't bad he says you've done bad to do good yeah he said I've never seen no one get money like you and give it away to people who didn't have things like and if but in your I grew up in a cancer state with a good Community I only know that yeah and so the more money I made the bigger the community I wanted to bring in even now with my businesses yeah I work in a way to I try and bring everyone in somewhere along the lines have a piece of something like people always tell me it can't be done you can't do it you can't do it but you can be done yeah man you just you haven't tried it or you didn't do it your way you know like you just underestimate tell me tell me the full circle Journey what you've come one at the moment because it's it probably cracked me up what you're currently doing today tell the listeners and viewers what you're currently doing today over the last sort of 12 Years what has been your journey and where you're at right now um I mean right now I'm on cootsie's website um I love this yeah I mean it Coots his bang one of the biggest banks in the world you are on their website I am it's the king's money um showing them how to stay safe from scams I've just completed a a a really good uh social media campaign for Virgin and O2 called the max which is scam spelled backwards um showing people just how they may get approached and give their information away um I've got various TV shows in Pitch at the moment uh tell me about the TV shows so I've got all different types in at the moment one I've got uh which is like a little baby called Crooks so I've just partnered with Lloyd's and the city of London Police and I met a lot of my I can't know belongs yeah Priceless yeah I mean it is look yeah it's taken a long time to get there yeah to get into a tier one bank and to get into the city of London Police and be able to sell them stuff is not easy yeah if you're an ex fraudster like I am who's out there talking about it but the reality is like together with Adam and so I have another business partner called Nicola Hardin who's an academic at Lancaster University she's a doctor in criminology yeah yeah and then I've got a combo in it yeah you Dr criminology yeah and Adam so we've got Adam Andy Nicola yeah so just break that down Nicola is Nicholas the doctor Adam's the ex-head of fraud yeah and he's the exit of fraud Adam's the TV guy yeah yeah and then we have Solomon who is a 24 year old Asperger's super hacker okay so you know I I talk at World leading conferences everywhere on the planet I mean I think we're probably one of the only companies that go coming in if you can yeah yeah I don't think there's many people that can say that but if you can beat Solomon I want to know you are yeah yeah so like because you ain't beating him that's just the reality of it yeah so we've watched you're back in Solomon that no one could be able to beat him 100 no one could beat Solomon who they are no one can beat Solomon I don't just say this on these podcasts yeah these are I'll go around the world doing this stuff America wherever you think you are if you can beat Soul calm yeah so if anyone can be Solomon yeah leave a comment below on this podcast here or on YouTube yeah yeah if you beat if you can be and I'll put them in contact with you yeah yeah put them in contact with her so I'm actually gonna I'm actually that's a challenge I actually owned a domain name hack me if you can right I own it right so next year as in Catch Me If You Can as in Catch Me If You Can yeah we've got hack me if you can yeah so next year I'm going to pop up a website that will have a full-on hacking if you can hack it yeah then you'll win a prize we've got a sponsor for it we've got a big company sponsoring it yeah so we will be pushing that next year so you'll be able to see it yeah but we're out there we're all over the place we're on social media we're not quite about this stuff we talk about it all the time yeah and what's it like working with the old bill now they're paying you to give them information to stop so they don't pay us to give us information so what they do so all right I write a drama series along with Adam called Crooks yes I've wrote it for like the last eight years yeah so and it was Adam's idea in the beginning and then he comes to me with the I kind of get all the storylines and write the story lines and then he script writes it and just drills it all yeah because he's amazing at all that stuff yeah so I can come up with him the flashy ideas and what we've got to do and he just TVs it um so I I we wrote one called um crooks on campus which is about money muelling yeah so students at universities suffering money muelling um which is a huge problem in the UK for all different types of students especially as like money becomes less for all of us money muelling money mules what is that so it's where so I say to you all right Dodge I want to put some money in your account and you say all right no worries you give me your account details and you don't ask me any questions you don't say anything and I'll just put money in your account okay that's it and then I say to you yeah you can keep 100 quid of it just send it onto my other account now you've been what's called a mule so you've been used right um so when we set up uh Crux at the beginning you know no one even knew at a university where to report this stuff or what to do who deals with the problem so we spotted that we kind of leapt in wrote an amazing episode of crooks got sponge ship for it uh put it out there and then it started to gain traction and before you know I've got Lloyd's knocking on the door going hello that's really like we really like that and they should because it is an amazing learning tool yeah and so they said we'd like to bring the city of London Police along and kind of join forces a little bit and perhaps go and roll this out to universities in London which is exactly what we've done so for the last six weeks we've been kind of rolling this out across London to London universities I've been going along and speaking and doing all the events and and we have a representative from the city of London Police called Oliver little that comes along as well and he's been talking about it and you know Santa much of a good initiative it is like let's not be under any illusion yeah this country is under Massive Attack every single day from fraudsters all around the world from cyber attacks everywhere yeah without people like me we're never going to move forward that means that we cannot deal with our own Financial systems because people are just going to steal it yeah you need people like us to show that this is how I think yeah so it's really important that we get to that place if someone's using cyber security to break into banks for Nick and money or nicking big money from companies are those companies embarrassed to admit it yeah and is that a that's a huge benefit for the cyber security the criminals they're scared to admit because they don't want to be seen as weak yeah exactly so is that happening all the time so okay we do on a daily basis we do what's called penetration testing right so this is where we will test the security processes of a company a banker uh whatever it may be yeah Energy company whatever and you you know the computers lots of the times are good but lots of the times they're bad so there'll be many occasions where so I'll say right I'm in we can open bank accounts at will we don't need to show no ID we're through all the processes and we can just open up the bank accounts right um but the majority of the time it's human error so what tends to happen even when systems are set up because Tech used if you use Tech right Tech's amazing yeah great love it love it love it love it but if it's not configured right if it's not set up in the first place correctly or human error with inside yeah human error well so when you're setting up the tech all these things can happen right you get all these little problems they missed something didn't get set up that creates a vulnerability it wasn't updated this didn't happen that don't that's a digital vulnerability solemn's going to be all over that he's going to munch you he's eating you for breakfast yeah like he's eating y'all yeah but then of course you've got the security guard who's like oh yeah yeah and now I'm just walking past in the suit and I've got a USB stick yeah I'm in Seoul yeah and now ransomware you yes and now I'm just going to increase ransomware yeah so I'm going to encrypt all your files so as a business yeah today's businesses Run online right so all their databases all the crms everything in the background is is run by a computer so if I can get to that and lock you out of it yeah I'm now more powerful than you and your own company wow right and that's what solo yourself and solemn can do yeah of course um this is what a Cyber attack is this is what ransomware is this is all the words that you hear in the in the press that a lot of people don't really realize what it is so once I've encrypted your information you can no longer access it so now Irene and say hey Dodge you right do you want to get in there and I'll say give me a nil give me yeah give me a million quid yeah and at first you might go I ain't giving you that yeah but then you ain't getting back in your system yeah I'll get someone in from cyber so then I'd say I tell someone about your ndas because this people don't think the criminals are smart yeah criminals are very very smart I'm thinking about your secrets I know your secrets yeah I own you what are you talking about pay my money and this is how criminal gangs do it nowadays right so we kind of we show companies how not to get caught like that and so Crux then demonstrates it to their staff so we built like a training platform that allows people to come on and they pay a subscription and they learn step by step how to stay safe yeah and I've just figured it all out how to do it to Consumers so soon we'll be talking to Consumers and there's going to be like loads of different things that you can laptop to Consumers all the time but like on a much broader scale because we need all of us need to start getting a lot smarter around cyber do you look at do you look at Cyber do you look at the businesses we are today again yeah like they are Clueless yeah because one's not clueless clueless but most businesses are like oh cyber security what is that I will deal with it there's a problem one day or we've got a someone just worked doing a bit of work for us on that but well so we're not up to standards right no it's a most serious businesses right have what's called a risk register right and on your risk register you have like a list of things that you would have to do now any serious business in today's day and age cyber has to be in the top three yeah you know it has to be yeah um but we tend to find that it's never in the top three because it's so expensive no one wants to pay anything for it and if you're a big company like you know you're going to get hacked yeah so companies are getting much white more wiser the more amount of companies that are getting hacked Sparks smaller companies becoming wiser because this is where the problem is yes a lot of the big companies can afford all the tech they can afford all the training they can afford as much as they want to do it because they're big and they've got the budget and they do this they have to do this um but the smes the smaller markets the mediums the small size businesses they just can't function in the same way so it's about getting to those guys and feeding those guys the correct information in the right way and that's your business model that's our business model yeah so but I mean are you going to be rolling that out to say it's already roll it out all smes we're going to charge you X yes or we're going to give you a course to do yes you pay us a monthly fee on that course yeah and Away you go exactly yeah exactly and that gives everyone access and it doesn't just give them access to that gives them access to us so once a month Solomon and I have to switch the cameras on yeah and we go live on the platform yeah and you can ask us any questions any problems you've got you submit them through and then we're going to answer them for you we're going to go through it with you so you get access to us and then like so you can just have like upgrades in there whatever it is you know if you want more time if you want whatever you know it goes without it's all up scalable once it's on the internet so uh yeah it sounds like a quality of business model yeah it's good it's taken a long time to get to so yeah it's um what's the where can people find what what's the website for that uh so if you just go to we fight for all.org we fight for all.org we fight for all.org yeah you can kind of see us on there and you'll see the stuff in there like Tony this this episode has been fascinating thank you well if you want to know more like yeah oh yeah of course the big con tell me about tell me about the book The Big Con well I don't want to tell you too much about it because I want people to read it but yeah I've heard I've heard amazing I haven't read it I've heard amazing reviews about that yeah it's been off the hook so I just talk about I'm just honest you know I'm just saying it just like I've been honest with you here yeah I'm just talking about all the different types of stuff I've got probably a bit more into the organized crime stuff in there about how that all happened um but you know I'm just being really honest about it and the comments you know loads of them are from people that are where I come from in Greenwich and uh it's nostalgic because they're they're failing there yeah well part of it we can feel it so um so that's really good so yeah please buy it everyone out there go and have a look at the big con just going back you said talk about the organized crime stuff tell me about that um so I I get so yeah I mean I get involved in organized crime uh it comes yeah yeah it just comes for me when I'm out grafting yeah you don't realize so like I connected with one of my mates who's like uh you know he's a street Arsenal he's a wicked wicked Street I say yeah he's like really well known like loads of people know him from wherever and like he's grafting he Rings me up one day goes oh I'm collecting debts now so I'm like oh yeah I don't get no one's getting into debt with me right there no I'm getting today with me yeah I'm a foester now that's not happening to me um so he goes uh yeah if you know anyone brother who's got any big big debts I'm we're going after him so I said no worries no worries so uh not thinking I'd ever need it yeah and then uh I've got one of the workers out with me and we go we'd go right down this way actually yeah we come down this way and we're grafting around all day and all day is something not right everyone said what's up brother you're right and he goes oh man I took a box of white off the and then he says this geezers yeah and he goes and I piped the lock and I went what he went yeah I went how do you pipe a box of gear like I've never done that alarm I've never done that one yeah I mean like I'll have a path you know I might have had a cheeky I'll have a bit of before well that's not me that one like what and he's like I just don't know about it happened like ah but the thing is the giza's gonna burn my ass down with my mum and dad in it unless I get him the 70 grand back here so now he's got like some mad issues like can you lend me the money I was like no you just giving you that yeah um so then like all the way back so from down this way yeah all the way back to London he's like for a couple of hours yeah he's cacking himself like he's like but I've come on I know you know something that can extend it yeah that can help me or just help me like love please just help me so I thought let me just ring my mate and just see so I'll ring my mate and he goes give me five minutes he goes Uzi owe the money to you he asked me he's the only money too so I told him so he goes like give me five minutes so anyway five minutes that he reads me back gives me an address to go to right so I turn up with this address and I'm sitting outside and then I mean it was [ __ ] Madness yeah like we're sitting in the van there's like me him there's my brother-in-law and my brother all in this van yeah and he's just a fun so they pull up yeah like and they're just like there's there's like three guys with locks dreadlocks here like and then just like two great big lumps and then my mate gets out oh wow do you know what I mean like that similar so he goes well above what's happening so I said ah this is this is him so like they we go in there anyway the keys that he owes the money for this the big guy in now so I I say I'll start talking to you guys are you talking for him then yeah so um I said yeah look I'm talking for him so he goes come around the back then so we go around the back of this Caravan and we're just sitting down in this office bit Yeah talking and I said to him that he's a good grafter he went he's a [ __ ] bag he went he owes me three grand as well from about two years ago like when the boys are getting the plastic together so you better start talking quickly I went no no no no no no no no no ain't like that and then um so then I just talked my way out of it with him yeah like and at the end of it like he kind of said I'm going to give you a chance if you [ __ ] up it's on you yes and now it's on me I'm thinking but I don't know the worst way to cover it yeah but I don't want to yeah but there was something that was just intriguing about this guy yeah like because my mates around him a bit as well yeah and I love my mate I mean he's a good mate um there must be something good about this guy and then so I think within three days I've dealt with it yeah go back but I'm still dealt with it money's all sorted yeah so it goes um because [ __ ] you know he's not your master journey I said I told you man I'm a man of my word if I give you my word I'm gonna deliver on it yeah because it's important yeah so he says uh what else can you do so I can do whatever you want because I know a lot of people you know and I said really I said what sort of people and then he just reeled off like a load of different people and I was like well that one and that one I can definitely do some things with if you're up with it and he said I'm up for it what you want and they said come see me tomorrow anyway I'll go see him tomorrow anyway like very quickly I'm now with this guy every day yeah and I'll realize the face who's a proper face yeah who's a pro like proper like mad stuff happens like loads of mad stuff happens yeah um and I see Matt I'm trying I'm actually trying to talk him into doing a book at the moment because he's been straight for like the last four years and I've done anything yet but I've been begging him but he's like yeah yeah like please please like no so like I kind of he just shows me like a whole different way of getting money and I showed him a different way that they could get money so there was loads of people like this guy that owed them money and they all owe money everywhere so I figured out ways that they could go to Banks and get money and remortgage their homes and deal little bits and pieces to get the money that they owed instead of them getting ironed out and that just took me on that last part of that Journey sort of you know of why I was kind of just whatever it was a whole new level and it was like a a very mad experience going through that whole thing and and it was good I mean there was like you know there's many crazy times where I thought you know like I mean going over sand banks yeah all things like that going for people to owe money yeah like I'm sitting on that chain Ferry going across guy seeing the fish going oh wow look this is amazing you know you're driving around in the next thing like someone's wrapped up like it's all gone Bandy like it's just mad stuff happening so it just became part of life and stuff the normal you're getting used to but I felt safe I felt that I'd found my people I felt like I'd found you know like people and then you realize that I actually he's actually a really good look how much he helps people yeah like this guy's fine don't stop ringing now from morning to night constantly these phone rings you a lot of problems just because people are naughty and they couldn't mean they're not nice people they're actually soft people but the naughty side as well yeah entrepreneurs like the Seeker of opportunity as an entrepreneur exactly every criminal as an entrepreneur you know definitely definitely definitely and they like because they're always looking for opportunity of course that's what they that's what they breed on you know that's why this is called conventional entrepreneur amazing yeah man it's great Tony I thoroughly enjoyed this man thank you I thank you for making the effort coming down this way and uh sharing your story you've had certainly had an eventful life yeah it's been eventful that's for sure yes man I appreciate that where can people find you before we leave uh so you can find me online uh if you follow me on LinkedIn don't take no dodgy requests on Facebook and all that and I'm pretty mustard at reversing it all on you if you want to try and get me um yeah I mean I I think I've just opened up my insta now yeah uh but yeah kind of like I don't I do a lot more mainstream stuff like kind of because I I don't I like the Limelight but I don't like them I'm more about the enhancement of the impact the impact and people understanding what they want I don't want to sit and do like a podcast every day telling people about my life every single day that's not a bit of me but you know I like to give people Vital Information it will help me anyone out there Google Tony sales yeah that's probably the best thing and you'll find all the stuff yeah you'll find all the stuff really enjoyed it bud thanks Dodge good man [Music]

Channel: Dodge Woodall

Views: 37,773

Keywords: podcast, crime podcast, Dodge Woodall, eventful lives, Tony sales, fraud, fraudster, scam, how to, London, uk, police, scammer, scams, trauma, mental health, mental health podcast, drugs, gang, britain's, britains, dodge, jail, prison, gangster podcast, London podcast

Id: PQ8huUL1DLA

Length: 95min 52sec (5752 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 25 2023