Please be seated. Good morning,
Your Honor. Good morning. This is the case of <i>
Winters v. Cawley.</i> Thank you, Jerome.
Good day, everyone. ALL: Good day. Ms. Winters, you say that
you and Mr. Cawley have been together
for six years, but now his paternity denial
of your son, Amoni, <i> has put your relationship
in jeopardy. Is that correct?</i> KRISTIN: <i> Yes, Your Honor.</i> JUDGE LAKE: Mr. Cawley,
you claim that throughout
your relationship, Ms. Winters has
been unfaithful, and say when
today's results prove
you are not Amoni's father, the relationship is over,
is that correct? Yes, Your Honor. So, Ms. Winters, you say
your family is in jeopardy. Yeah, lately... Explain. Lately,
all we've been doing...
We argue all the time. We have a lot of
insecurity issues. A lot of insecurity? KRISTIN: Yeah, because of,
you know, the past. It's just resentment
from the issues
from the past, though. Well, what kind of issues
from the past? Explain. Betrayal. Me catching her
in the bed with another guy. JUDGE LAKE: Oh! KRISTIN: We were
kind of broken up and having problems
at the time, and before that,
I had caught him talking
to another girl, so... JUDGE LAKE: Wait a minute!
Don't skip over that
catching in the bed part. (LAUGHTER) Mr. Cawley,
tell me what happened. You said you caught her
in the bed with somebody else? Yes, Your Honor.
Well, I was away, and the moment I got home, I was ready
to just flop into bed. I had been away
for many... And I turned the corner
and I see both of them
laying in the bed. And the guy was asleep,
and she was in there... I was just dressed.
We were dressed. You had your clothes on,
you said, but you were
in the bed with a guy. KRISTIN: Yes. He was a family friend. He was spending
the night there,
and Michael was away. We were having problems
at the time. And this was after
I found out he was talking
to another female.
So, at that point, I didn't even want
to be with him. But that's... Were you sleeping
with this guy you
were in the bed with? I had prior to that,
but I didn't that night. JUDGE LAKE: Oh! MICHAEL: You see what
I'm saying, Your Honor? So, now she's admitting to you
she slept with this guy. He only knows because
I told him about it. I believe the only reason
she told me about that is to cover up
the other things
that she did. Just the... What are the other
things she did? MICHAEL: Just rumors of
guys being at the house. Her hanging out
with other guys
and stuff like that. I admit, at the time,
I was talking to
other guys and stuff, but like I said, at the time,
couple months before that, I had just found out
he was with some girl. I just can't prove he cheated
and he won't be man enough
to tell me he cheated. So, I just kind of
strung away from
the relationship. Because I didn't cheat! So, wait a minute.
You all have
all this going on, and Mr. Cawley, you're saying
because of all of this, you have doubt concerning
Amoni's paternity. Yes, Your Honor. And that's why
you petitioned this court
for a lie detector test. Am I correct? MICHAEL: Yes, Your Honor. JUDGE LAKE: So, this court
has granted that request, and we will have those
results in just a moment. <i> Okay?</i> MICHAEL: <i> Yes, Your Honor.</i> JUDGE LAKE: Moving forward,
how'd you two originally meet? KRISTIN:
We had a mutual friend,
and we were kind of friends. We worked together. And eventually,
probably after a year later,
we moved in together. And that's when I think
the main problem
started happening. 'Cause we started
getting more serious.
We had more problems. As soon as we got
our first place, that's exactly when
we started going downhill. Why? Because... There's too much
responsibility for him. There was no...
I mean, there was no... She said it was too much
responsibility for you,
Mr. Cawley. I'm a young man,
I have no kids, helping her take care
of her two kids. Oh, so when you
moved in together, Ms. Winters had
two other children? MICHAEL: Two other children. Prior to this relationship? KRISTIN: But I had them
when I met him, too. So... JUDGE LAKE: <i> And so,
when you moved in with her,</i> <i> you took on the responsibility
of these two children?</i> MICHAEL: I sacrificed a lot. JUDGE LAKE:
Well, I mean, look... He really didn't sacrifice
anything. He just grew up. 'Cause when I met him,
he was young, still living with
his mother at home. And since he got with me... But, like she said, I was young... ...he had his first place,
like, he's grown up a lot. And he's just
not used to it. Like she said,
I was young. But everything seemed
like it was unfolding,
you know what I'm saying? I was out of high school. I was into college.
I was chasing my dreams,
taking care of my mum. I was the man of the house,
my mum's house,
taking care of my sister. And I got with her. I saw being with her
as a path to starting
my own life. But I simply were, kind of,
still testing the waters
a little bit. But I was simply talking. Why were you
testing the waters
talking to other women when you were moved in
with Ms. Winters? I guess, being young,
saw my future flash
before my eyes a little bit. Oh! The responsibility
of raising two children and being in this relationship
made you start thinking... Yes, Your Honor. I was still there to take care
of my responsibility, but I probably
shouldn't have... The female friends
that I had, I probably shouldn't
have been talking
to them as much with us having
a place together. But that still don't have
nothing to do with her taking it to the whole
next level and actually
cheating on me. But the girl he was actually
caught talking with, when I found out
he worked with her, I was like,
"Don't talk to her." And then, next thing I know, I'm finding out
he's at her house,
giving her rides. So, you know, at that point,
I was ready to break up
with him. And so, after this incident,
you all decided to break up? We did for maybe,
like, a week or two. But at some point,
you come up pregnant. KRISTIN: Yeah, we ended up
getting back together <i> at the end of 2013,
and we pretty much were like,</i> <i> "Look, we're either
going to stay together
and quit all this,</i> "or we're just
gonna break up." So, we pretty much agreed
to stay together... We did make an agreement
we weren't going
to mess around and do all of that no more. And around the time that
she said she was pregnant
with Amoni, her family member told me
that she was at the house with the guy that
I asked her not to be. Take me back to that moment.
You find out you're pregnant. I didn't even say nothing
or tell him or nothing. I kind of just bought a test,
because I was late, you know. And when it
came back positive, that's when I called him
and I told him about it. And to be honest,
I was unhappy whenever
I found out she was pregnant. But then her
family member's spouse
told me later on that she was at the house
with this guy
numerous times. Oh! Oh, so you slept
with this guy? No, I didn't. And it was...
It was a one-bedroom
apartment. My family member and,
you know, his family,
and then me and him. So, it's not like
we were in the middle in the living room
sleeping together. So you're saying,
it's your testimony that you weren't at this house
with this man multiple times as your own family member
alerted. That doesn't, like,
Michael told him, yeah. JUDGE LAKE: This is a mess.
You're just on a treadmill. Running a race
and never winning. And this, coupled with
all the other rumors, you walking in the house,
seeing her in the bed
with somebody else, all of these things have fueled your doubt. Yes, Your Honor. And now your relationship
is completely...
It's on the line. KRISTIN: Mmm-hmm. MICHAEL: Yes, Your Honor. We just don't trust
each other. And there's a beautiful
16-month-old baby
in the middle of it. KRISTIN: <i> Mmm-hmm.</i> <i> And you don't know
for certain</i> <i> if it's your biological child.</i> No, Your Honor, I don't know. And you can't trust
anything Ms. Winters says
because you say she's lied to you
and betrayed you
over and over again. Is that correct? MICHAEL: Yes, Your Honor. But there's still that
"I don't care" attitude,
so... She has an
"I don't care" attitude? Yes, still, to this day.
And it just made me
feel like, it never left. Even after we made
that agreement. You know, it's... JUDGE LAKE:
What's the agreement? That we...
At the beginning of 2014... JUDGE LAKE: Okay. ...the agreement that
we weren't gonna mess around or do none of that
crazy stuff no more. It made me feel
like it never left,
'cause it'd been, probably, like,
two years since then, and she's still showing
that "I don't care" attitude. And I only act
like that because
he tries to, you know, if some guy
I went to school with likes one of
my Facebook posts,
he's like, "Delete him." If he's your friend,
he's gonna like stuff, but if he's, like,
in every single thing
in a row, then I'm like, "Man, he's on your stuff
too much." KRISTIN: And I should
delete them, you know. JUDGE LAKE:
So, there's no trust? None at all. Well, that's why you asked
for a lie detector test. KRISTIN: Right. MICHAEL: Exactly. And, you know, we have
administered that test
and we have the results. Would you like
to hear the results? KRISTIN: Yes. MICHAEL: Yes, Your Honor. Jerome. (APPLAUSE) Ms, Winters,
you met with a licensed
polygraph examiner. KRISTIN: Mmm-hmm.
Yes, Your Honor. And you were asked
the following questions. "On the day Michael found
a man in your bed,
did you have sex with him?" You said, "No." Yes, Your Honor. The lie detector determined you were being truthful. Told you. (LAUGHS) Ms. Winters,
you were asked, "Have you had sexual
intercourse with anyone "other than Michael
since the end of 2013?" You said, "No." The lie detector determined you were being deceptive. (AUDIENCE GASPS) (LAUGHTER) Now that's not true.
(NERVOUS CHUCKLE) You were asked,
"Are you currently hiding "a sexual or romantic
relationship with another
man from Michael?" You said, "No." Yes, Your Honor. JUDGE LAKE:
The lie detector determined
you were being deceptive. (AUDIENCE GASPS) What? (SCOFFS) Mr. Cawley, how does it feel
to hear those results? Some of the stuff
I had a gut feeling about
that she was lying about. But I was in denial,
but I'm really not
too surprised for real. Ms. Winters, it said
you were being deceptive
on more than one occasion. Is there something
you'd like to say? In the beginning of 2014,
I did, you know... It did prolong a little
after than I said it did, but that was the only thing
that I can really think that
I lied about. The whole... JUDGE LAKE: Well, that's... Lying about somebody now
is a little different. What's a little different? Because, like I said, then,
we were having problems.
Now, we're not. So... But point blank
period, we made an agreement
at that point. Yeah, well, you also cheated
on me four months ago.
So that agreement kind of went out the window.
So... The bottom line is,
after the "agreement," you were still sleeping
with somebody else. KRISTIN: Right.
And I did it because I... I know he was, too,
because I saw him... You know, he was writing
girls on Facebook,
trying to find new friends. I mean, it just didn't
feel real at the time, so... All right, so you've
admitted to that... KRISTIN: Yeah. ...and that's what
the lie detector indicator. It also indicated that there's
some romantic relationship
you're hiding. Honest to God truth, since the beginning of 2014,
especially since
I got pregnant, I haven't even
conversated with a guy that I shouldn't even
have been talking to. And so after you hear
these results, Mr. Cawley, does that further
fuel your doubt? I mean, at this point,
you know she was found
to be deceptive on more than one occasion
during the lie detector test. I think my main thing is
if Amoni is mine or not,
because I wanna... I don't wanna be there
for a kid that's not mine. But as far as her lying
on the lie detector test, I'm really not sure
about this relationship. So, you're saying just
the lie detector result, you're concerned that
the relationship
won't be able to last. Yeah, because that was
still before she was
pregnant with Amoni. KRISTIN: We should have
broke up four months ago,
then. MICHAEL: That's true,
we should have
been broke up then. Yeah, we should've
probably been broke up. Because you're saying,
Ms. Winters, "Well, then we should
have broken up
before he cheated again." Right, because I feel
like he did it because
of what I did in the past. So, he felt like I was
going to get over it and he felt like
he had one on me,
you know what I mean? Maybe the only reason
she forgave me was because of all the stuff
she did before that. Oh, Lord, you all tit for tat! WOMAN: Serious! Goodness! It's just the worst cycle.
It just keeps going. Right. That's why sometimes
I tell him, like, I feel we should have
been broke up, like,
we are too damaged, but for some reason,
I don't know if it's
'cause we love each other or we just have
so much history
and it's been so long, so we just stay together.
(CHUCKLES) I feel, at this point,
I've sacrificed so much and I've always
had a hard time
with quitting anything. And that's a lot of
the reason why I stayed. 'Cause like I said,
it's been six years now. So, in that six
years of my life,
I could've been... I probably would've
been already doing
what I love to do by now. Well, listen, when you invest
so much time in a person, you just feel like,
"My pay-off is happiness. "I'm going to get to it
by hook or by crook,
and I'm gonna stay. "I don't care what happens,
because I want that. "I've invested a lot of time." That's why I came here,
to prove to him that
Amoni is his son, so that we can get past
all this, and we gotta,
you know... And that's another reason
why I'm still attached
to this, because of the kids. It's because
of the other kids. Because their fathers
aren't really around at all. And I'm more of a father
to them than they've
ever known. They look to you
as one of their
major father figures, even if they know you're
not their biological father. KRISTIN: Right.
When we break up
or he leaves or something, they'll ask me,
"Where's Michael?" JUDGE LAKE: So, Ms. Winters,
I have to ask you this. If Amoni is not
Mr. Cawley's biological child, <i> you're worried
that pretty much
all three of your children</i> <i> will be without a father.</i> I mean,
that would be the case,
but he is his son. So... Mr. Cawley,
are you that certain? I'm hopeful,
but I don't know.
I'd be hurt but... You just seem so defeated
in this relationship. Because I've been through
so much just trying
to keep it together. I felt like... She said we
should have been broke up. But I also feel like
I've been the main reason
we still together to this day. She's so quick
to push me away
and try to mess it up. But I'm looking at the kids. I even told her a lot
of times, "You need
to look at your kids." JUDGE LAKE: Ms. Winters... I mean...
I'm a straight shooter,
though. You do seem
kind of nonchalant, like,
you can take it or leave it. KRISTIN: I mean, I'm... Maybe I don't show
my emotion like I should, but at the end of the day,
I do think of my children,
you know what I mean? Whenever we go
back and forth and
we're arguing all the time, that's not healthy
for them either. Like, I'd rather them have
no father than be around me
and him arguing all the time. Look, we all grow
in relationships. Sometimes we grow together,
sometimes we grow apart. And I think that's what
we have to determine here. Whether you all
are going to continue
to try to grow together, or if you're going
to have to grow apart. Right. And most importantly,
how we handle the child
that could potentially be in the middle of this, Amoni. KRISTIN: Right. I have the paternity
results for you.
Are you ready for them? KRISTIN: Yes. Yes. JUDGE LAKE: Jerome. JEROME: There you go.
You're welcome. JUDGE LAKE: Thank you. These results were prepared
by DNA Diagnostics
and they read as follows. In the case of<i>
Winters v. Cawley,</i> when it comes to
16-month-old Amoni Cawley, it has been determined
by this court... Mr. Cawley, you are the father. So, that right there
should prove to him
I wasn't cheating, you know, around the time.
(CHUCKLES) Well, it doesn't really
prove that, Ms. Winters. (LAUGHTER) But it does prove that
Amoni is his biological child, and it relieves the doubt. Right. The arguing, the not knowing, we have to get this together,
what you guys are doing
right now. Now do you all
want to try to work
on this relationship now that we have
these results? I want to try
and give it a shot. Do you want to
give it a shot,
Ms. Winters? Yes, but all I know is that...
You know what I mean,
we've already talked about... If anything happens again
between either one of us, then we're just gonna
go our separate ways. JUDGE LAKE:
Well, look, this is why
we have counseling here for our families. Because sometimes
you wanna do something,
but you really don't know how. You all don't
have the basics. We need to work
on the fundamentals.
Respect, communication, honesty, commitment. KRISTIN: Trust. Trust. Very good. And we have counseling
and resources for you, and I want you
to take advantage of that
and start figuring that out. There are three children
in this family. MICHAEL: Yes, Your Honor. JUDGE LAKE:
It's important that you
fix this, you understand? KRISTIN: Yes, Your Honor. Yes, Your Honor. I wish you all
the very best of luck.
Court is adjourned. KRISTIN: Thank you.
