AUSTIN: Pastor John, this is, I don't know
the number. No one knows the number. You have operated in innumerable Q&As in your
ministry. JOHN: That's true. AUSTIN: You did one at the college the other
day. We've done this before. You've sat with Phil Johnson more times than
you can count getting grilled. You've had questions and answers at Shepherds'
Conferences, at the Ligonier Conference. Have you always done this? Do people just come up to you asking questions
your whole life? Is this something you did on purpose at the
church to just help people? Give us a little background of the Q&A. JOHN: Well, I guess you always have the fear
that you're saying what no one wants to know. AUSTIN: Hmm. JOHN: I prepare, I come up, and I preach a
sermon whether you want to know it or not. I don't even ask. So, in order to sort of move away from the
reality that I may be saying things that nobody cares to hear, early in the ministry at Grace
Church, I started setting aside Sunday nights pretty frequently to just hear from the congregation
because I wanted to know what they were thinking. I wanted to know what was on their heart. I wanted to know trends. I wanted to know issues, things that they
were concerned about. So, yes, we started that very early. I came in 1969. So I don't know if we did one in 1969, but
if not, we did one soon after that. Through the years, we've done question and
answer sessions. I think the vulnerability is important. I think it was important in the early years
when I didn't know all the answers to find out what the questions were so I could find
the answers. So I would maybe often say, "I'm not prepared
necessarily to give you a complete answer on that, but that's an important question. If it's important to you, as a part of the
flock God has given me, I'm going to find the answer to that." So through the years, that has grown and developed. And then as the world has become kind of a
media world, and the only thing that people do tend to know about you is what is pre-recorded,
I think it's important for me to be more than a pre-recorded sermon for the same reason
so people can tap a little bit into my heart, and again hear the answers to things that
on their hearts. So, yes, I've always done this. I've always wanted to do it. I always felt it was part of my shepherding
of my own congregation and a part of helping anybody. So, I've done them all over the planet, all
over the world. I think of some pretty amazing Q&As in Moscow,
in Russia with some Russian pastors trying to figure out the world and figure out God
and figure out the Bible when they had had such limited resources. I've done them everywhere I've gone through
all the years, and I hope they're helpful. I want them to be helpful, and I want them
to be as personal as you can get when you have so many people to deal with. AUSTIN: Yeah, and I think they are helpful,
and I think that's the feedback that we get when we asked for questions this morning,
with no preparation, no forewarning. We had hundreds of questions come in just
from this morning. So it's something that people appreciate. It's something that's helpful and practical,
so we're grateful that you do this for us. Before I ever came to Grace Church, I remember
wearing my headphones and listening to Q&As. They were one of my favorite things. It was before the age of the download to spin. We would listen to those, and just the equipping
that takes place from getting so many different questions answered. Showing people that you'll answer their questions
not from some deep well of personal knowledge, but from the Bible is a testimony to - JOHN: Yeah, I think there's something else
that's at work here too. Effective biblical preaching raises as many
questions as it answers. AUSTIN: Hmm, what do you mean by that? JOHN: I mean that when you're dealing with
a text, the people can see what you're saying, but they can also immediately discover that
that leads to something else that they want to know. It's an inexhaustible source of truth. People were commenting on the message this
morning that so much more could have been said about every single point, and that's
absolutely true, so much more. I was reading a biography today of George
Whitefield, and he was talking about his friend by the name of Harris who preached four-hour
sermons and sometimes preached all night. I felt this morning like I could preach all
night, like I was raising as many questions as I was answering. So biblical preaching that drives people into
the Scripture answers questions, but it also raises questions. So I think anybody who is going to be an expositor
has to respond to that. Typically, even after I preach a sermon, people
come up to me and have had questions raised by that very sermon at that very time. So I think that's part of completing the shepherding
process. AUSTIN: This morning is a prime example of
that, and I think everyone would be in agreement that this morning we heard a phenomenal sermon
from John 12. I don't think I can look at John 12 in the
same way again because of the way that you explained that to us. I think that's a good illustration of just
what you're saying. All the questions that are answered in an
expositional approach to Scripture, but all of the questions that are raised. You are exploring the depths of theology there. This was not the kiddie pool. This was big boy stuff, right? [laughter] JOHN: Well, yeah. It was important though because just exposition
itself is a series of questions. You know this because you do it. What I do with a text, every text I ever preach,
I just keep asking questions. I ask questions of what does this word mean? What does this phrase mean? What does it imply? How does it connect with the previous? How does it connect with what's coming later? How does it connect with other passages? How does it connect with the Old Testament? How does it connect with systematic theology? How does it connect with biblical theology? All I do in preparation for every sermon I
preach is go to a text and ask a myriad of questions. Questions and questions and questions. And I can't finish until all of the questions
that I've asked are satisfied. Now, I know there are more questions, but
it's enough to give you a grasp of the text. But even for me, Bible study is a series of
questions that I have to find the answer to. The questions are raised by the text, and
they're answered somewhere in the text. AUSTIN: Yeah, what we saw this morning were
those three enigmas. JOHN: Yeah. AUSTIN: Massive looks into complexities of
the incarnation and of justification, deep theological truths that you answered according
to this passage. You showed us the connections in passages
we've seen and will see in the book of John, but it leaves people with more questions about,
well, how did this work practically in Jesus's life? What was it like for His omniscience to function
in that way? JOHN: Yeah, those were - AUSTIN: What He thought about His suffering. JOHN: Those were enigmatic because they were,
in reality, the opposite of what they appeared. The first one, anguish, that's enigmatic because
it appears as if He is God, so why is He troubled? The answer from the Father is enigmatic because
you would think if He was going to be bearing sin, it couldn't glorify God, but it did. The cross is enigmatic because the people
think they're judging Christ, Satan is judging Christ, and this is the end; when, in fact,
He's judging the world, judging Satan, and this is the beginning of Him gathering all
men. So it just seemed to me an enigmatic - I mean
you know that. That's something you have to sort of craft
as you're working through a text to try to pull something together that leads people
systematically through what you're covering. AUSTIN: Sure, and it's helpful and it's insightful. I think we all could have handled one of those
all night sermons this morning. JOHN: [laughs] AUSTIN: I actually had I think visible -- JOHN: Yeah, everybody but the people in the
nursery. [laughter] AUSTIN: Yeah, I mean, yeah. JOHN: I mean you've got a bunch over there
that don't want to - AUSTIN: Yeah, we fill the place. JOHN: Yeah. [laughter] AUSTIN: But, yeah, it's just one of those
sermons where you could keep listening and keep being provoked by the truth, and just
a really helpful, clear exposition. It's in my top five. JOHN: But you see, that in itself is a testimony
to the divine authorship of Scripture. AUSTIN: Absolutely. JOHN: Because when you've heard what I've
said about it, it still feels transcendent. It still feels inexhaustible because it is. That is the Scripture giving testimony to
itself. I was reading a book by an atheist. This guy Reza Aslan has written this book
Denouncing Christianity , and saying that the four writers of the gospels contradict
each other because one writer says Jesus was born in 6 A.D., and the other writer says
Jesus was born in 4 A.D. So we know these books are not inspired because
those writers are wrong. No writer says He was born in 6 or 4, so the
guy hasn't even read the Bible. So he's writing a book debunking the Bible
and saying things that aren't even in the Bible. If he were to read the Bible honestly, he
would find the same thing that you all find, that it's divine character is just overwhelmingly
clear. AUSTIN: It's the perspicuity. It's the clarity. It's the obvious inerrancy - JOHN: Consistency. AUSTIN: - of Scripture when it comes through
in a way that's so understandable as God reveals Himself to us through the Word preached. It's a great ministry. We're grateful for you and particularly grateful
for this sermon this morning. JOHN: Well, I'm grateful to have the privilege
to do this because I get the most out of it. I have to listen to every word I say. [laughter] And I get the joy of processing
all that hours and hours into one hour for all of you. AUSTIN: Yeah, well, we're grateful and well-fed. On November 5th, you dusted off your Twitter
account, whatever that is, and - JOHN: By the way, until November 5th - AUSTIN: Yeah. JOHN: I had never, ever done anything with
a Twitter account, whatever it is. AUSTIN: No, you had it. It wasn't under your control though. I think the folks at Grace to You were Tweeting
on your behalf. JOHN: Yeah, they would put on there a coming
series or radio program or something, but I never said anything. AUSTIN: No, we connected you personally to
Twitter on November 5th, and we went live. I saw it with my own two eyes. It happened in your office upstairs. The Twitterverse, as they call it, will never
be the same. [laughter] It's a social media site that talks
about followers. They use something called a hashtag. I looked up a definition of hashtag because,
for the life of me, I couldn't explain it. It's a word or phrase preceded by a pound
sign used to identify messages on a specific topic. Hopefully, that's helpful. Our hashtag was #askjmac. And when we put this out there, we talked
about it maybe a week in advance that we're going to have a Q&A live on the internet with
JMac, #askjmac. We thought there would be a good response. There was an overwhelming response. We had far more questions than we could ever
answer that were coming at you live, firing from a couple of laptops in the room at you
at once. It was like watching someone box. It was really quite an experience. So #askjmac, the hashtag, was fifth in the
United States. It was the fifth most popular topic in the
United States during this Q&A hour. People were just really grateful for the opportunity
to interact with you personally. That's just another example of what these
Q&As are. Get to know you a little bit more, the man
behind the pulpit, and how you would apply these things to real-life situations. The limitation - JOHN: The challenge for me is to give an answer
in 140 characters. AUSTIN: Exactly, exactly. [laughter] You said it, 140 characters is
the limit. So getting these answers down to a sentence
required you to say things like - somebody asked a complicated question about finances
and missions and how to go to seminary for a young man without going into debt. You answered concisely, "Have a rich uncle
or marry up." [laughter] He's not wrong. So there was some of that fun stuff in there,
just interacting with folks. Then there was some profound things like,
"Do you ever deal with spiritual lethargy, and if so, what do you do about it?" Your answer in less than 140 characters was,
"The best way is to get your eyes off yourself and pour yourself into others for the sake
of the gospel." That's profound, and we got a lot of questions
like that from the church. So I think what we should do is rather than
have you expand all of these 140 character answers is we just launch into the church's
questions, and let you - we're not going to count your characters. We wouldn't ask that of you, but I say we
try to cover as many of these questions as we can. We have questions from every avenue and every
category: Bible questions, ministry questions, personal questions about you, theological
questions. We got a dozen questions, more than a dozen
questions on eschatology. We have questions about the church and a lot
of questions about personal evangelism. So I say we just dive in. JOHN: Let's go. AUSTIN: All right, let's go. Let's talk about some current issues. This is under the pastoral category. One of the issues is this, "In light of the
Michael Brown verdict, is protesting wrong for a Christian? Are we to exercise our freedom of speech?" And then this, "How can we share Christ and
glorify God in this situation?" JOHN: Yeah, I think clearly Scripture says
we are to be subject to the powers that be because they're ordained of God. We are to honor the king, all those in authority
over us. We are subject to them. This is how we demonstrate that we have been
transformed by the gospel. This is Romans 13. This is what Peter says in 1 Peter. We are to live quiet, peaceable lives. That's what Scripture says. We don't foment protests. We don't foment rebellion. We don't start revolutions as believers. We understand that God in His providence is
in charge. He's in charge of what happens in America. He's in charge of what happens in Ferguson,
Missouri. He is in charge of everything. We have the right to take a position against
sin, but not to violate law, and not to try to overthrow government, and not to do damage
to anything. We have a right to speak of the need for justice
and equity and fairness and honesty and integrity. Those are virtues that bring honor to God. We want to uphold truth. We don't know what the machinations are working
in a situation like that. We don't know the details of what happened. We don't know what went on in a grand jury
room and all the discussion and the 70 hours of testimony and 60 eye witnesses supposedly
going on in all of that. But we do know this: that God has ordained
government, and we're called to be subjected to government. There's no place for rebellion. There's no place for reaction that does destructive
things. There's no place, I don't think, for collectively
coming together to denounce government even in what you would call a peaceful protest. That is a denunciation of government. You don't have to do that. I just probably need to say I understand the
terrible, terrible things that have happened in urban areas to black people. I understand the frightening demise of that
culture. I understand the horrors of 75 percent of
the kids being born without a mother and a father in a home, born illegitimately. I understand that. I understand all the issues there; social
issues, political issues. It's a horrible situation. I understand that they may suffer because
of it. Inequities, I understand that. I've been in the middle of that. When I was back at Southern Seminary, it was
really interesting. I was back there three weeks ago, and I was
doing a series there. When I came in to do my opening message in
this series at Southern in Louisville, there I saw in the front row, John Perkins. John Perkins is a black man and John Perkins
is 86 or something like that now. John had been there the day before, and he
stayed because he wanted to see me. He wanted to see me. So when I walked in to take a place in the
front row waiting to preach, he came out of the second pew. The place was full of people. He walked up to me, and I walked up to him. I threw my arms around him, and I just held
onto him for a long time, and he held onto me. We just kind of talked in each other's ears. There was so much emotion, so much love and
affection that we had for each other because we go back so far. People were stunned by that because they don't
necessarily know that part of my life. So we had a lunch afterwards with the leadership
of Southern Seminary, and they were all in there. John said, "Let me tell you about my experience
with John MacArthur," he calls me in his Mississippi drawl, John MacArthur. When I was a student, when I was a kid in
seminary, I went back there and I worked with him in Mendenhall, Mississippi, before the
civil rights movement had really changed America. It was at the heart of the civil rights movement. It was a devastating time. There was a pastor there who had a Bible study. He was a white pastor in a Southern Baptist
church. He had a Bible study with a black man who
was a custodian. The leaders of his church said, "You can't
have a Bible study with a black person." That's how intense that separation was. So he said, "I'm going to do that." So he couldn't buy gas; he couldn't buy groceries. He had a nervous breakdown, went to the hospital
in Jackson, dove out of the third floor the third or fourth day and killed himself. That was the pressure that was on in those
days. It was really intense. But anyway, I happened to be in Jackson with
all the black leaders when Martin Luther King was assassinated. I was in the room with all of them. I was the only white guy, but I was there
preaching in all the black schools everywhere and living in John and Vera's house with their
family. It was so interesting because John reminded
me at the table of something I'd forgotten. He said, "When Martin Luther King was killed,
we had to go preach the next two days. We had to go preach in black high schools." He said, "While the world was trying to figure
out what was happening, the black kids were weeping. Every high school we went to," he said, "the
black kids were weeping because of the death of Martin Luther King." And he said, "You had to conduct a memorial
service in all those high schools for Martin Luther King." Well, I look back on that and my heart was
to reach those people, so I've got a lot invested through the years in that kind of thing. I understand some of the feelings, the residual
things that are there, but as Christians, we bring Christ to every issue. Christ is the only thing, the only reality
that can change anything. So I would never engage in any kind of assault
on government, either a peaceful one or a violent one. I would rather trust God as the sovereign
over everything and believe in His providence to accomplish His purpose, and be known only
for preaching the gospel. AUSTIN: Hmm, and you'll speak, as you just
said, God's Word. You'll speak Christ to both racism and because
racism is a terrible sin. JOHN: Terrible. AUSTIN: And you'll speak Christ to those who
need to understand their obligation to submit to the government because of Romans 13. JOHN: Yeah, well, the first places I preached;
when I was a young preacher, I preached on weekends in the black churches in the South. I loved it. I absolutely loved the feedback, instant feedback,
instant feedback. [laughter] I loved it. I loved it. I would preach sometimes a sermon, and they
would say, "Preach another one," and I would preach. Sometimes two, three hours, I would preach. Then we'd eat. I mean we'd really eat, all that good southern
stuff. So I really started my preaching in black
schools in the South, black churches all over the South in the country, little country churches. I have a great burden that we train men who
can go back into those churches and have an impact on those communities through the gospel. We can't mix the message. We can't get caught up in the politics. We've got to be singularly the voice for the
gospel and the Word of God. AUSTIN: So good, and I think that's why your
ministry has had an impact in inner city locations from here in L.A. to in the South. I think that's probably not a well-known fact
that famous evangelical pastor, John MacArthur, is friends with famous evangelical civil rights
movement leader, John Perkins and lived in his house. JOHN: Yeah. Somebody said to John, "When did you enter
the civil rights movement?" He said, "That is a stupid question. I didn't enter the civil rights movement;
it happened to me. It happened to me." And I was there, and it happened to me. We were caught in it. I was arrested. I was taken down to the local jail. They took all my money, the sheriff. I couldn't eat in a restaurant in that town. I mean we were in it up to our eyeballs, and
we were trying to figure out what do we do here because so much of this is wrong, but
what is the answer? John, his brother was killed in front of his
eyes in the street. So just embracing him again, and it was really
a wonderful moment just to kind of pull those years together. I just want to bring Christ to that whole
community. It's my burden. AUSTIN: That's good, and it reminds us why
so many of the questions that came in were about personal evangelism because that is
the accent. You've said that's why God left us here is
to win the world for Christ and to reach the lost with the gospel. A lot of the questions folks had were about
- even that question about Ferguson was about, "How do I minister the gospel in this situation?" Let me give you a few of these, and you can
react to them. "How can I evangelize my close friend who
is a Catholic? My desire is to help her see the truth of
the gospel. What are some key points seen in Scripture
that show Catholicism to be false? Any good resources to point me to? Is this even a primary matter to focus on
with all of the attention given to the pope these days?" So those were some very thoughtful questions
about Catholicism. Are our Roman Catholic neighbors and friends
to be won to Christ or is that unnecessary? JOHN: I think the way you approach a Roman
Catholic is not to attack Catholicism because you immediately make them defensive. They're going to defend that. Why? It isn't even the personal aspect of it. It's the generational aspect of it. Very few people are converted to Catholicism
as a first generation Catholic, right? I mean the Catholic Church, they're not in
a very strong position to be making converts. They've got scandal after scandal after scandal
after scandal. They've got a pope who sounds more like a
pagan, who believes nothing, who is a fraud in every sense. Just listen to what he says and you would
know it. They're not doing very well at promoting their
system. The nations of the world that have been historically
Roman Catholic are abandoning Catholicism with a fury. France, Italy, parts of Europe that were Roman
Catholic are virtually secular to the core. It has proven to be an invalid system, and
where it has failed is on the personal level. It hasn't changed the world. It hasn't changed society, but more importantly,
it hasn't changed their lives. So you don't need to attack the system. The corruption of the system is legendary
at this point. It always was. I was talking to a young man whose parents
are Catholic. He said he was raised Catholic. I said, "What do your parents think of the
Catholic Church?" He said, "They deeply resent the Catholic
Church. They've been in it their whole lives. They deeply resent it. That's the only way I could define it." It isn't just the corruption of the system. It isn't just that it keeps everybody in poverty,
and that it demands money. It is that it doesn't give anything to the
individual. So when you're dealing with a Catholic, what
you want to do is find out whether that individual has confidence in their eternal life. The question that you need to probe is the
same question that was on the heart of Nicodemus: "What do I do to inherit eternal life?" or
the rich young ruler. That's where you go. Well, you don't go to the system. They already know the system doesn't deliver. They live in that. They don't have any hope of heaven. They don't have any security. They live in fear, a kind of mortal fear. They try to do a few good deeds, go to mass
or whatever to buy their way into the system to secure their future. So you probe them on the issue of, "Are you
sure that if you were to die, you would enter into heaven?" Of course, the Catholic Church demands that
if you ask that question, the person say, "No, no," because that's presumption. That in itself could be a sin. So leave the system alone. I mean you can give them - I've done studies
on the priesthood, the pope, Mary, the mass. We've got all of that kind of material available,
but that is more useful I think. I mean somebody might be willing to listen
to that. But that's more useful for somebody who has
come to Christ from the Catholic Church and needs to understand how to get disentangled
from all of that, but I think you go at the heart of the individual. Jesus didn't specifically assault Judaism. In the Sermon on the Mount, He attacked its
superficiality; phony prayers, phony giving, and all of that. With Catholicism, you can talk about the fact
that the giving is superficial, the ceremonies are superficial, the mass is superficial,
it's all externals. But what about your heart? What about your heart? Do you have confidence that you know God,
that you have eternal life, that your sins are forgiven, you're on your way to heaven? If that confidence isn't there, then you're
not accepting a gift that God has already promised. "These things are written that you might know
that you have eternal life." That you might know. Do you want to know that you have eternal
life? If you're a Catholic, you're a Catholic because
you want eternal life, right? Right? Otherwise, you'd be a pagan. Why are people Catholics? Catholics because they think that's the way
to heaven, and they want that. But do you have the assurance that you have
that? So I think you go at the individual, and you
don't necessarily assault the system. You can talk about its externals like Jesus
did. You've heard it said, "Don't commit adultery,"
but I'm telling you what about your heart? You've heard it said that you're not to kill
somebody, but what about your anger? So what's your life like? You're doing all this stuff on the outside,
but do you have victory over sin? The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes,
the pride of life. Do you love God? Do you love His Word? Are there manifestations of transformation
there? If there are not, then you've got religion,
but you're not on your way to heaven. Then Matthew 7, "Many will say, 'Lord, Lord,'
and I will say, 'I don't know you.'" Again, this is what Whitefield said and just
literally fried the leadership of the Anglican Church in the 1700s. Whitefield was going around and saying, "Just
because you go to church doesn't mean you're a Christian if you haven't been regenerated
by the Holy Spirit." He was vilified. He was attacked. He was assaulted. It's always a fight throughout every age in
any formal religious context to come to true personal conversion. So that's what we work on. AUSTIN: Yeah. How many folks here tonight - and I know our
church is full of people like this - how many folks here tonight came out of the Roman Catholic
church? That's probably a majority maybe. JOHN: Yeah. AUSTIN: I mean that's a lot of folks. JOHN: Yeah. Well, you know, the good part is they know
about the trinity. They know about the cross. They know about the resurrection. So the facts are there, but the application
of those facts is completely misrepresented. AUSTIN: What you're saying I think applies
to a lot of these other evangelism questions. People asked, "How do I evangelize my Jewish
friend? How do I evangelize my Jehovah witness neighbor? How do I deal with my Mormon co-worker, and
how do I best present the gospel to them?" I think what you're saying right now is a
transcendent answer about evangelism. What Whitefield said is we're calling men,
women, all, no matter what background, whatever they have, whatever religious system. Whether they grew up in this church, we're
calling them all to be born again. JOHN: Yeah, and I think if I was dealing with
a Jewish person, I would say, "Who can enter the holy hill of God?" Psalm 15, "He that has clean hands and a pure
heart." So let me ask you about your heart. You're Jewish, you go to the synagogue. Do you have a pure heart? Do you have a pure heart? Do you have holy longings, holy aspirations,
holy desires? Do you have the confidence that you have eternal
life? Do you have the confidence that your sins
have been forgiven? You're not going to find any of them who will
say that unless they are literally buried in sort of hypocritical idea. So I think you have to go for that anyway. If someone says, "Yeah, I'm fine. I'm good. I'm okay," that's not a candidate for conversion. You want to expose their desperation. Of course, when you're dealing with people
in Judaism, you're dealing with essentially Pharisees. So you can follow how Jesus dealt with Pharisees. He basically unmasked the superficiality of
their religion, and He got very clear and unequivocal in Matthew 23 when He said, outside
you're clean. Inside you're full of dead man's bones. You're always going with people in the cults
to the inside. You're talking to a Mormon? Okay, you do this. You don't do this. You behave this way - or talking to a Jehovah's
Witness or whatever it is - but what about your heart? Do you have holy longings, holy desires? Do you love God? Can you sense that there's some power in you
that causes you to want to love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength? Do you have a longing to hear from Him, to
hear His Word? Do you love His Word? Do you desire obedience to Him? When that's not there, now you've got to expose
the fact that whatever your religion is, your heart is not changed. Your heart is not changed. Until a person desires a transformation on
the inside, you're not going to be able to lead them to the truth. The other unequivocal reality is they have
to have a true view of Jesus Christ. Jews don't. Mormons don't. Jehovah's Witnesses don't. The only ones who do, I guess you could say,
would be other forms of Christianity like Catholicism who would have a true view of
the nature of Christ. So those are just some - you don't want to
get caught up in a formula. I know a lot of people use formulas. Formulas sound good to the guy that uses them,
but one size fits all is never a New Testament model for evangelism. You don't have Jesus running around using
the same model on everybody. You don't have Him presenting the gospel in
exactly the same way with the same questions and the same answers with everybody. In fact, it shifts and moves throughout His
whole ministry. When you come into the epistles of the New
Testament or follow through the book of Acts, the apostles, they don't use a formula. Paul even says, "I became all things to all
men." I meet them where they are. He doesn't mean I shift and alter the truth. He simply means I find the entrée. I find a way in. So it's just knowing the truth about Christ,
knowing the truth about the gospel. And not necessarily reducing everybody to
some kind of a pin on a bowling alley; you knock them over with the same ball. There's going to be different approaches,
but always you're going toward Christ and toward the heart. If the person has no sense of holiness, love
of virtue, forgiveness of sin, secure hope of heaven, you have to expose that in evangelism. AUSTIN: I think this could be enormously helpful
and freeing for people, who potentially are intimidated by the details of other religious
systems. I think one of the things you're saying is
you don't necessarily have to be an expert on how many arms the Hindu god has to lead
a Hindu to Christ. Instead, you're telling us that the gospel
is what's applicable in every one of these situations, the speech about Christ. JOHN: Yeah. Two things happen: one, you shatter their
confidence in their religion, and you don't do that by attacking the religion. You do that by attacking their personal condition. You go at them and let them disclose what
their heart is like. The parable of the soils is as good an illustration
of that as there is. You can sow the gospel seed, but the condition
of the heart is what produces the fruit. God has to do the heart work. You can't do the heart work, but you can be
used by God to do that heart work. So then it becomes presenting Christ. You know enough about Christ, all of you know
enough about Christ to present the fact that He died on the cross for our sins and provided
an atonement to satisfy the justice of God. By His substitutionary death, God is then
free, having punished your sins in Christ to forgive you of all your sins. You can give the gospel. You don't have to be clever. It can be that simple, but what is necessary
prior to the truth about the gospel is to break into the person's hidden place; to get
past their religion. In fact, that would be the last thing I would
ever attack in talking if I met a guy who was a Mormon. I told a story years ago about meeting a Muslim
on a plane and having a long conversation with a Muslim. I didn't attack Islam. I went right into Islam for their view of
sin and then their view of judgment, their view of hell. Then I went right to the issue of what's going
to happen to you? If sin produces divine judgment from Allah
and Allah sends people to hell, how are you going to avoid hell? Do you have any hope of heaven? "No. How could I have a hope of heaven?" So that's what you're after. AUSTIN: That's the simplicity of the gospel
message. JOHN: Yeah. AUSTIN: I think that's what's so freeing about
hearing this is I think we're greatly helped by apologetics. We're greatly helped by those who have become
experts in the cults, but an ordinary person in a Christian church knows the gospel and
trusts Christ, has what they need to evangelize their neighbors and their family and their
friends. JOHN: Let me just take it a step further. If you go for the heart, and the person says,
"Yeah, I am a Mormon, but I don't have any peace. I don't have any hope. I don't have any security. I don't have any sense that I'm going to heaven
or that my sin is forgiven. I fight sin all of the time. I battle evil desires. I don't know what to do about it." Now you're prepared to say, "Let me give you
the gospel." Then you begin to overturn the error of their
system by presenting a true Christ and a true gospel of grace rather than a system of works. So you don't even get to that point of taking
them from their error to the truth until you've exposed some kind of a need. That's the richer young ruler. The guy comes and says, "What do I do to have
eternal life?" Jesus went right to his sense of self and
said, "Well, you know. Keep the law." "Well, I've done all that. I've done all that." End of discussion. Jesus never went any further. The guy turned and walked away, and there's
no remedy for that because you don't need a savior unless you know you need a savior. AUSTIN: That's good. In the same vein, one young lady asked this
question, and I think she's thinking about evangelism here. How do I explain God's sovereignty to an unbeliever? JOHN: I think it's good to explain God's sovereignty
to an unbeliever. I think it's really good. I think it's extremely helpful to explain
it to an unbeliever for this reason: who wants a savior who is not in control? Do you understand that? If I say to somebody who is not a believer,
let's say this is somebody who is, I don't know, in a false religion. Most people are. "I want to invite you to embrace the Lord
Jesus Christ as Savior, but oh by the way, the world is out of control under the power
of Satan." I think I would say, "You know, I think I'll
look around further and see if I can find a savior who is in control." Because how secure am I or how secure is anything
if He's not in charge? So, I want to say to the unbeliever, I want
to introduce you to the God who is sovereign over every molecule in the universe, the God
who not only gives life, but sustains it forever, the God who keeps His people forever, the
God who fulfills His word, fulfills His promises, the God who is over Satan and all demons and
all people, and who orders and ordains all history. I want to introduce you to that God, that
absolutely sovereign God. Oh, by the way, I want to introduce you to
the God who is sovereign over your salvation. And if you desire the salvation that He has
provided, you can plead to Him. You can ask Him. It is His decision, but I can say this to
you, if you come to Him, He will not turn you away. I think telling people about the sovereignty
of God is exactly what Jesus did in John 3 when He's talking to Nicodemus. Nicodemus says, "What am I going to do to
be born again?" He says, "Well, the Holy Spirit blows where
He will like the wind. You hear the sound of it, yet you don't know
where it's coming from or where it's going. You're born from above." I think you say to a sinner, "This gift is
a gift. It isn't earned. You can't even earn it by your repentance. You can't even earn it by your desire. You can ask for this gift. It is sovereignly given by God. It is given on His terms in His time from
heaven. But, oh by the way, 'Come unto Me all ye that
labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Call on Me and I will answer you.'" So I think telling sinners that God is absolutely
the sovereign of the universe is so powerful in attraction. Man, the whole world is flying to bits. It's chaos out there. Even unregenerate people know that, and what
kind of savior do they want? A truncated, superficial kind of evangelism
gets truncated superficial kind of responses. AUSTIN: Hmm. JOHN: I think the more you say about God as
sovereign, the more attractive He becomes. Don't you? AUSTIN: Yeah. JOHN: The more powerful the invitation becomes. AUSTIN: To know that even the unbelief of
an unbeliever is under the auspices of a sovereign God, I think that would fuel a person's confidence
in evangelism, just knowing that God is in control of the outcome of this conversation. It's not all up to me, but I can share the
gospel with my coworkers, with my relatives, knowing that the Lord is able to change their
hearts. It's not up to my persuasiveness. JOHN: No. Look at the Luke 18 passage, which always
jumps into my mind. You have this tax collector, outcast, un-synagogued
social pariah pounding his chest. He knows God is sovereign. He knows he's unworthy. So what is he saying? "God, be merciful to me, a sinner." He's pleading with a sovereign God. That is the clearest or simplest, I guess,
illustration of a conversion, and Old Testament conversion. Jesus hadn't died and risen again, so he's
not trusting in that, but he knows God gives salvation sovereignly, and he knows he doesn't
deserve it. So he's pounding his chest as a symbol of
his contrition and repentance and agony over his sin. He's pleading with God to show him mercy. "Be merciful to me." You find that with the blind Bartimaeus. "Son of David, have mercy on me." So the Jews knew God was sovereign, and they
were pleading for His sovereign mercy and grace on their behalf. I think in evangelism, that's what you're
after. You're after repentance and a pleading with
a sovereign God to give salvation. Then you say, "And if you pray that prayer,
He will hear, right? He will hear." AUSTIN: And the publican and Bartimaeus go
home justified because they had been humbled in their sin. JOHN: Yeah, right, right. AUSTIN: Yeah, amen. What about this question, keeping in the same
vein. What about sharing the gospel at work? This person asks, "Is it okay to share the
gospel at work? Is it stealing from an employer if you share
the gospel on the clock?" JOHN: No. No, it's not stealing from the employer. You're going to be talking about something. What better subject? If you stop working and pin somebody against
the wall, and take a half hour to drag them through some kind of formula, you don't want
to do that. But I mean you're smart enough to know what
you can do and what's acceptable. I don't think anybody is cracking a whip over
your head, hopefully not. But if you're on an assembly line, you don't
want to stop the line to do evangelism. You don't want to interrupt the class if you're
a teacher in a school. But I think in the normal, casual conversation
that happens, I think the first kind of breakthrough is going to be your life, your joy, your peace,
your contentment, the facility and the ease with which you talk about the Lord and talk
about Scripture and talk about life in the church and things that you love. And this becomes apparently your life and
your love, and I think out of that, your conversation is filled with things about how thankful you
are to the Lord and how grateful you are that your sins are forgiven, how grateful you are
that you have the hope of heaven. You have no fear of death. I've had that conversation on an airplane. You can try this question. This is one that a friend of mine used. "What would happen to you if this plane crashed?" [laughter] That's a little bold, but just
to make the point. My friend would say, when somebody panicked,
"Sounds like it would be a serious event." "Uh yeah, it would be very." Well, he would say, "It might be a serious
event for you, but it would be a glorious experience for me." "What?" [laughter] That's because you view death so
differently. I mean there are a lot of ways to probe in
and rather than trying to drag somebody through some kind of system at first, and then when
you get a little time at the lunch hour or on the break time, you can be a little more
specific. AUSTIN: Yeah. JOHN: But you're here for that. That's why you're here. That's why you're here. AUSTIN: On the planet. JOHN: On the planet. AUSTIN: Yeah. JOHN: Yeah. AUSTIN: Amen. So evangelism transitions well to new believers,
and we have lots of new believers in our church. JOHN: Wonderful. AUSTIN: Some of them wrote questions, and
we're glad they're here. We want to be helpful to them. How about a question like this one? "I'm a new Christian. Where do I start?" JOHN: Where do you start? You mean like, you start here at Grace Community
Church, and you don't leave. [laughter] You just stay here. Yeah, it's pretty simple. Start praying, and start reading your Bible. Come hear the apostles' doctrine. Read the Word, pray, fellowship, come to the
Lord's Table. That's what the early church did. What did they do when they started? They met together every single day for the
apostles' doctrine, fellowship, prayer, and the breaking of bread, which is the Lord's
Table. Worship, prayer, fellowship, study. Those are the simple basics of the Christian
life. I did a series many, many years ago on the
basics of the Christian life. I forget even what the name of it was because
I don't always name those things, but it covered prayer, fellowship, Bible study, those kinds
of things. There are a lot of good basic books. There's a little book I did years ago called,
Keys to Spiritual Growth , which is a great launching point for the foundational aspects
of glorifying God, which is now what you're able to do called, Keys to Spiritual Growth. It came to mind because I just got a copy
of it in Portuguese or something. Somebody had translated it, and I was reminded
of it again. AUSTIN: Back to Basics: The ABCs of Christian
Living. JOHN: There you go. AUSTIN: That's what it was called. JOHN: Thank you. AUSTIN: Google. [laughter] JOHN: Wow. AUSTIN: Credit where credit is due. JOHN: Okay. AUSTIN: Other new believers are asking questions
about how to grow, how to increase their love for Christ. Would you give these same answers? Pray, read your Bible? JOHN: Yeah. AUSTIN: Why are those essential? Is that something just for new Christians
or are they entering into a whole lifetime of these four things? JOHN: Yeah, so it's a whole lifetime with
increasing delight. Yeah, those are the things that I would again
say the book The Keys to Spiritual Growth lays out a foundation of the basics. That series "Back to the Basics" would be
really good just to tell you what Bible study is like, what prayer is like, what fellowship
means, and all of those basics. That would be a really good starting point. But listen, let me tell you this; you're in
a great place for all of that to take place because we provide all of that for you all
the time. We get it. We don't entertain you. As Clayton was saying tonight, we're here
to worship. We're here to honor Christ. That's what we do. Here you are having fellowship tonight. You're hearing truth from the Word of God. We pray when we come together. Those are the things that we as a church do. The Reformers used to talk about the formal
principle. Those things that the church has to do because
they are laid out in Scripture. It's not complicated. You do what the early church did. We talked about that, didn't we, a few months
ago on the ordinary church. We're just can ordinary church. This is what we provide for you. You don't have to search the world for this. You don't have to search the internet for
this. This is what we are as a church. We provide that basic pattern for your growth. Yeah, I think obviously hear from some of
the older people, but when you begin to desire the Word of God, that desire doesn't diminish. It should increase and increase and increase. You go from being a spiritual child to a spiritual
young man to a spiritual father. The delights of Scripture continued to expand
and the joys of the Christian experience continue to develop and fellowship becomes richer if
you're in the right place. Just talk to Christians who aren't in a place
like this who are starving for the very things that are essential to their life and growth. So that's why we're here to provide that. AUSTIN: So this is a good church for a new
believer to grow? JOHN: Yeah. It has to be. It has to be or we're not faithful. AUSTIN: Because the things that are for every
Christian to grow are what we're about each Lord's Day and trying to emphasize those basic
things. JOHN: Yeah. You come on a Sunday morning, and you hear
the apostles' doctrine, which is just a reference to divine revelation. You hear the Word of God expounded. You engage in fellowship. We have fellowship groups and you meet people,
and you stimulate one another to love and good works. We lead you in prayer. I try to lift you up before God in the pastoral
prayer. We have the Lord's Table last Sunday night. We bring you to the point of confession. We provide resources for you through the Internet,
through the book store, through classes, seminars, conferences. All of it is basically geared to fulfill what
we see as the biblical model. AUSTIN: Another question from a new believer,
"Why do I have to be baptized to join the church?" JOHN: Well, it's a question of obedience. You don't have to be obedient, but the Bible
says, "Repent and be baptized." It's not hard to understand. Repent and be baptized. So when the church was born on the Day of
Pentecost, 3,000 people repented, put their trust in Christ, and were immediately baptized
that day. That's the pattern, and that's a visible demonstration
of your union with Christ, public demonstration. Jesus said, "If you confess Me before men,
I'll confess you before my Father who is in heaven." I kind of think that obedience can be a little
bit mystical. Obedience can be a little bit sort of private. Maybe we're not sure if you're a believer
because we don't see into your life. You're here, but we don't know what your heart's
longings are. We don't know how obedient you are in your
personal life. So you have a very simple starting point to
demonstrate your willingness to be obedient, and that we can see. That's when you step into the water and you
say, "This is an act of obedience. It is a simple act. It's an uncomplicated act, but it is required
as a starting point for my obedience, a public confession." It sort of parallels. There's an interesting parallel back in Exodus
24 where God had given His law to the people, and the people said, "We will obey. We will obey. We will obey." They all said, "We will obey. We will obey." Now, that sounds really good. Well, let's see if we can't demonstrate that. So they had a sacrifice, and they got blood,
and they filled these big basins with it, and then they sloshed all the people. Peter even refers to that. They were sanctified with blood. At the time, that was the people saying, "We
will obey. We are making a public demonstration, public
covenant." The demonstration of a heart of obedience
and that open covenant, that symbol of that open covenant with God to be obedient to Him,
and to be identified with Him, and to step out of the world into the church is baptism. AUSTIN: That's helpful because for a new believer,
if you didn't grow up in the church seeing this Christian ritual of baptism, it's quite
strange pushing each other under water after all, in front of all these people. Why is it like that? Why did God choose baptism as this sign? Is it because it's to public? Is it because it's so obvious? JOHN: Well, yeah, but a lot of things could
be public. AUSTIN: Sure. JOHN: You could do a lot of things publicly. Why that? Because water has always been since the creation,
a cleaning agent, a washing. We all know that. Water washes everything, and it's the symbol
of cleansing. The Old Testament had all kinds of washings,
so we understand the idea of being washed and being cleansed. Baptism pictures the washing of the soul in
a more full way, not just the washing, but the washing that comes by union with Christ,
being buried with Him and rising with Him. It's a beautiful symbol. The church, we're not full of symbols, right? People aren't walking around with incense
doing this, and nobody is doing the sign of the cross, and we don't wear weird stuff. We're not into symbols. The further you get away from the truth, the
more symbols. Note that. The more symbols, the less truth. The more symbols, the less reality. The less symbols, the more reality. We're not into symbols, but we are obedient
to the one public covenantal affirmation that symbolizes the washing of the heart. Then with the Lord's Table, that too is again
a public identification ongoing. Baptism comes once, but the Lord's Table comes
continually, which then carries our testimony on in a regular way saying, "I stand at the
foot of the cross again and acknowledge that Christ has paid the price for my sin." This is a form of worship and a renewal of
my covenant. AUSTIN: Baptism is saying something. When a new believer gets in the water, this
act in and of itself symbolizes and represents something. What's a baptized person saying? JOHN: He's saying, "I publicly identify with
Jesus Christ, dying with Him, rising with Him to newness of life. I confess to Jesus." I told you that when you guys were talking
about heaven. What should we ask people? I said the great Christian confession has
always been, "Jesus is Lord." I am confessing Jesus is Lord. Romans 10:9-10, "If you confess with your
mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be
saved." So you're making that public confession. Someone who is unwilling to make that public
confession is content with a level of disobedience. That's not a good way to start the Christian
life. The Lord has given us that kind of simple
act of obedience so that you can have a point of assurance and the church can have a point
of assurance. AUSTIN: To identify it's that initiatory right
or symbol that identifies that this person has identified themselves with Christ. JOHN: Yeah. AUSTIN: So when they've done that, then we
admit them into membership in the church. JOHN: Right. AUSTIN: On Sunday night, they line up here,
and we have questions about that. JOHN: Yeah. We want you to be obedient because that's
the path of blessing, right? So we don't want to say, "Oh, we don't care
whether you're obedient to baptism. We'll make you a member of the church." Well, how could you do that? That doesn't make sense. We already know you're not obedient, so why
would we want to make you a member of the church in good standing? We need to talk to you first about baptism. We don't want to make it impossible. It's not a big deal. People say, "Oh, I don't know if I can get
up in front of people." I would think that for a new believer, it
would be a stampede to the water because of all that the Lord Jesus Christ has given. AUSTIN: Amen, good. Here's a follow up question that someone asked,
"Is it a sin not to be a formal member in a local church?" JOHN: Well, I don't know what a formal member
is, but it helps to wear a tie, but it's not necessary. [laughter] AUSTIN: Sure, yep. JOHN: Yes, yeah. It's not right to not identify with a church. AUSTIN: I think that's what they probably
mean by formal is that identification. Why do I have to go through a process? Can't I just come here every week? Doesn't that count? JOHN: For what? AUSTIN: For - [laughter] JOHN: I don't think God's counting the attendance. AUSTIN: I don't have this question. It's this person. [laughter] JOHN: No, I know you didn't. AUSTIN: I'm a formal member of this church,
and I'm wearing a tie. [laughter] JOHN: The New Testament knows nothing of someone
who is just a floating entity. Don't knowanything about a person like that. There were added to the church daily those
that were being saved. They were added to the church. They weren't just added. How did they know there were 3,000? How did they know there were 5,000 men in
chapter 4? How did they know that when a believer went
from one city to the next, he was going to take a letter to introduce him to the church
at the city that he arrived at? They tracked all of that. Hebrews 13 says that the elders are over you
in the Lord. They're over you in the Lord, and they have
to give an account. They're the shepherds of your soul. They're your overseers. So you can find membership. Membership simply means, I submit to the leadership
of this church, and I offer myself to serve in this church. Again, persons who flee baptism and hesitate
in membership may have a reason to hold back, and it may not be a good reason. There isn't a good reason. There could be some bad reasons. I know this is a time when people don't want
scrutiny. They don't want accountability, but the church
offers that accountability. The church, we want to shepherd you, not so
that we can find out what's wrong with you. But so that we can meet your needs and see
you grow in grace in the knowledge of Christ. When you say, "I'm a member of the church,"
all you mean by that - it isn't really formal. I mean you don't get a mark on your wrist. You don't get some special benefits or reduced
insurance policy. [laughter] What you're saying is, shepherd me, and I
will serve. That's what you're saying. If you don't want to say that, then why don't
you want to be cared for, shepherded, and why aren't you willing to serve? There's no real positive reason for not wanting
those things. AUSTIN: The nature of membership is that it's
a benefit and a blessing to the member and to the congregation. JOHN: Yeah, but it never was intended to somehow
accrue to your financial benefit or any other temporal benefit. It is to your spiritual benefit to be shepherded,
and it is to your spiritual benefit to come into a congregation of people who will love
you and care for you and be mutually loved by and cared for by you. It is to your spiritual benefit. It is not to your spiritual benefit to isolate
yourself and to be free-floating and to go wherever you want, and wherever may attract
you for the moment. That's the old story of you remove a coal
from the fire and it dies. You keep it in the fire and it stays warm. A person removed from the fire from the communion
grows cold. Sin wants to isolate you. It wants you alone. It wants you outside accountability. That's not to your benefit. AUSTIN: Good. JOHN: I think those of you at Grace Church,
this isn't oppressive. We're not legalistic. We're not chasing you around trying to look
into every aspect of your life. There are churches like that. There are churches like that where the leaders
of the church know how much you have in your bank account, and they want to look at your
checkbook once a month. Crazy things. See where you're spending your money so they
can look at your life. We're not doing that. We want to care for your souls and shepherd
your souls, and we want you to serve with us. If you find another place where the Lord wants
you, go there, but you want to be sure that they're fulfilling that function, that it's
not an event you're attending. But they're shepherds caring for your spiritual
life and a place where you can serve and flourish because all of the necessary elements of church
life are provided. AUSTIN: So good, not an event you're attending. This person asks, "How do I respond to people
who claim to be believers, but who don't go to church because they say it's full of hypocrites
or legalistic Christians?" I wonder if those churches are events that
are being attended? JOHN: Yeah, yeah. There are a lot of weekend events that happen
every weekend in the same place led by the same people, but they're not churches. They're entertainment events. It's kind of a Christianized entertainment. It's been all convoluted by the complete importing
of pop music. Pop music is a tremendously powerful force. You add that to the light show and all the
shtick that goes with it; you can create an event, but an event is not a church. A weekend event repeated every weekend is
not a church, but it appeals to people because of its anonymity. There are churches by design that do not ever
want people to give up their anonymity. They don't want anybody to ask you any question,
to confront you. They don't want you to stand up. They don't ask visitors to identify themselves
because they think that they need to be comfortable there. Well, that is a complete rouse. That is a complete con because if an unbeliever
is comfortable in a church, then it's not a church. If it's a worshipping group of people, unbelievers
should feel alien to that environment. Somebody who doesn't go to church, doesn't
attend church, and criticizes the church as full of hypocrites is most likely not a Christian. AUSTIN: And they need that admonishment to
be a part of a congregation because in that association they're going to see what real
Christianity looks like. JOHN: Yeah, with all its strengths and weaknesses. AUSTIN: Sure. JOHN: Yeah. AUSTIN: It is a congregation of imperfect
people. JOHN: Right. AUSTIN: But we're here, and we're here for
each other. We're here for the glory of God. JOHN: But we also know the only hope we have
is imperfect people, is in the resources that the Lord has given to His church. We want to make sure that they're all working. AUSTIN: That's helpful. Pastor John, we're out of time. JOHN: Really? AUSTIN: Yeah, it blew by, didn't it? You know, you're fun to talk to. [laughter] We've talked about evangelism. We've talked about ecclesiology a little bit. We've given some discussion and helpful stuff
for new believers. This is a fruitful time. We're grateful that you'd make this time for
us. JOHN: You don't have one more compelling question
in your list there? AUSTIN: Yeah, I can ask another compelling
question. [laughter] JOHN: Okay. [applause] AUSTIN: Yeah, no. FEMALE: One more hour. AUSTIN: One more hour? It's not like anybody can go home with the
traffic and the rain. [laughter] JOHN: No. AUSTIN: But I just landed the plane, so now
I'm having to pull it back up, so I don't want anybody to get airsick here. Want to do some rapid fire? JOHN: You said there were some questions about
eschatology. AUSTIN: Big time. JOHN: Well, we had a lot of questions about
eschatology, the end of the age? AUSTIN: A lot of theological questions, biblical
questions, and questions on eschatology. You want me to touch one? JOHN: Well, let me just kind of generally
say that this is another thing, and I guess maybe I really wanted to say this. I just gave you the option, but - [laughter]
a church without a solid biblical eschatology, meaning understanding of the end of history
has got a huge loose end. It's huge. I said something about that this morning when
I was kind of wrapping up. I said, the Jews wanted to force all the prophesies
regarding the Messiah into His first coming. We have Christians who want to take all the
prophesies concerning Christ and push them back into His first coming. They're called pretrerists, amillenialists. So they have this theology with this totally
open end. It just has no closure. They don't seem to care particularly. It's almost like a badge of Reformed loyalty
to be unsure about how everything ends. I don't know about you, but that doesn't work
well with me. First of all, I don't think God gave a clear
beginning and just kind of lost Himself at the end. I don't think if Genesis 1 says that God created
in six days and there's no question about it, and He lays out exactly how He did it;
and you get to the book of Revelation and you hear about periods of certain weeks and
certain months and certain years and a thousand year millennium, and then an eternal state. I don't think God lost His way at the end. I don't think He was confused at the end. I think the end is as precise as the beginning. To be honest with you, I am far more concerned
about the end than I am the beginning. The beginning is over. I'm glad it was what it was, and it explains
why things are the way they are. But I don't think you can over estimate the
value of a church with a clear ecclesiologyand a clear eschatology. Clear understanding of the church, and a clear
understanding of what the Bible says about how things are going to end. It does say something. It doesn't say everything, and it doesn't
say whatever you want it to say. It doesn't have ten views or five views or
four views. There's just one view. I've been all over this world. I remember flying 35 hours to Kazakhstan one
time, getting off a plane, talking to 1,600 people from central Asia, who had never had
a pastor's conference. After Russia had seen its freedoms, these
people came together, 1,600 of them. It was an unbelievable event. It was raining the whole time, and they were
trying to feed 1,600 people. The way they did it, they had these huge pots,
the kind you boil a missionary in. [laughter] They were outside in the rain rained in the
pots, and they kept throwing potatoes in all week. That was what - the rain made the soup. We were there for a whole week, and they asked
me if I would explain the end of the age. I had never met any of these people. I got off the plane at Almaty at 7:00 in the
morning, and I was teaching at 8:00, and I taught for about eight hours for seven days
in a row, six days in a row. They wanted to know about the end. I laid out; I went through the book of Revelation
systematically and showed them the end. They said to me after that - I took a day
to do that. The end of that day they said, "You believe
what we believe." I said, "I believe what you believe?" Same Bible. Guess what? It's so clear that people with no training,
no seminary, and no commentaries could understand what the book of Revelation said. I think it matters how it all ends. I think God is glorified when we acknowledge
Him as the Creator, the beginning; and I think He is glorified when we acknowledge Him as
the consummator, the end. I think that's a huge benefit for Christians
looking at the world and wondering where is this going? Where is this going? In talking to Al Mohler when I was back there
a few weeks ago, he said he's more eschatological than he's ever been. He's almost apocalyptic because he sees a
world that just there is no way to reverse this. This thing is in a massive free fall, and
there is no way to stop this. He's pretty well-attuned to the way things
are, and he says, "I've never felt so eschatological, so apocalyptic about the way the world is
going." Well, if you want to understand where the
world is going, you can as a believer. That gives us such a powerful confidence that
all that is coming is laid out for us on the pages of Scripture. I think that's a treasure that a church can't
underestimate. There are a lot of resources on that. I've preached all that, preached through Revelation
several times, through Daniel, through Zachariah, through the Olivet Discourse in Matthew and
Luke and Mark. We've covered all of that. There are books Because the Time is Near , commentaries
on Revelation. All of that perspective on the end has stood
the test of scrutiny, and it's the conviction of every professor at The Master's Seminary,
and these guys are incredible scholars. I just think that's a treasure this church
has that is underestimated. We know where the world is going because Scripture
lays it out. AUSTIN: That's really helpful, and I think
that's why what you're saying about what Dr. Mohler observed that it's just the world seems
to be falling apart around us. Maybe that's why there's so many eschatological
questions. JOHN: Right. AUSTIN: So when people are asking, "Explain
the mark of the beast. Will there be a new heaven and a new earth? Why didn't the church fathers write about
the rapture very much? Which isn't true. What about Revelation 20? When Jesus ascended, did He know what day
He'll come back? What is the next sign of Christ's coming? How do I know my name is in the Book of Life? These questions go on and on. JOHN: Right. AUSTIN: You're saying these are good questions. JOHN: Yeah. They're good questions and the reason I wanted
to end on that, I wanted to end at the end, because I get it. I'm seeing this world unravel. There doesn't seem to be any way back. I mean this is totally out of control. This is a free fall down a black hole. So, you can't just say, "Well, eschatology
doesn't matter." That is not helpful. People want answers. Where is this thing going? It's not fair to God, it's a dishonor to God
to say, "Well, the Bible is not clear." It is clear. It is absolutely clear. I did a single message, a jet tour through
Revelation. That was one Sunday night I did preach an
hour and a half. Then we turned it into a booklet. You can get it from Grace to You. That was one message through the whole book
of Revelation, so coherent, so consistent. Then two volumes through the book of Revelation,
and then another book, Because the Time is Near, through Revelation. All the studies on the Olivet Discourse in
the gospels, the whole book of Daniel. You want a fascinating study, listen to Daniel
or listen through Zechariah. What I've found through the years is that
this is absolutely consistent with Scripture. You don't have to tweak anything. You don't have to do headline exegesis. You're not playing off the world and what's
happening, but inexorably, the world is going down the path that's charted in Scripture. I think that makes us very valuable to the
society in which we live. I just wish that the church was unified on
what the Bible says. I don't like it that there are Christians
who don't believe in Creation, but believe in some form of evolution. I think that dishonors God and confuses people. I don't like it that there are Christians
who don't accept what the Bible says about the end either. But I think it's wonderful that we do, and
the answers are there. The reason I gave you the illustration about
Kazakhstan is because that is as alien a place as you could ever be. Thirty-five hours to get there. You step off the plane. I've never been there. I don't know what's going on. I teach them a whole day on the end times,
and they tell me that's exactly what they believe. How did they come to that? They don't have seminaries. They don't have books. They don't have anything. That's what the Bible says. You have to go to school and listen to somebody
who deceives you to undo that because that's what's there. I'm glad we've gotten some traction helping
people understand that, but I think that's a great thing for you to know. God is in total control of this thing. Read the book of Revelation, and you know
how it's going to end. That makes you a pretty valuable person in
the world because that's an answer people want to hear. AUSTIN: Eschatology matters and your questions,
we have so many resources in this church to answer those questions, and they're available. Because the Time is Near is a book he's mentioned
several times. It's a paperback, one volume, fast commentary
through the whole book of Revelation. Very helpful resource. You're saying eschatology matters. JOHN: By the way, eschatology means the study
of the eschaton, which is Greek for the last things. AUSTIN: Last things matter because what is
the chief end? What's the goal of the study of the end? JOHN: Glory of God. AUSTIN: The glory of God. What's the benefit to the believer? JOHN: To glorify God for what is coming, just
like we glorify God for what is passed. He gets glory for the creation. He gets glory for the consummation. AUSTIN: I think that's why you're hopeful
and not morose because you know how this story ends, and that's our great hope. JOHN: I'm not looking for the anti-Christ. I'm looking for Christ. AUSTIN: Amen. JOHN: I think I just want to be faithful to
Scripture. He that has this hope in himself purifies
him. So it's a purifying hope. He's coming. We know that. It's also a glorious hope, a comforting hope,
an encouraging hope, a hope of reunion, a hope of glory, a hope that He will right all
of the injustices in the world in His glorious kingdom when He sets up His throne in Jerusalem
and reins over the earth. All of the injustices will be reversed. Righteousness will reign over this planet,
and Christ will take His throne. That's how history ends. He will be honored by that. AUSTIN: Come quickly, amen. Pastor, thank you for your faithful teaching
and your shepherding of this congregation. We love you. All the notes said, "We love you, Pastor John,"
smiley face. "We love you Pastor John," smiley face. [laughter] I just thought it'd be weird to
add that a bunch of times, but know that that's what people wrote on the cards because that's
how this church feels about you. JOHN: You know, that reminds me of a guy who
was preaching in a pulpit that was a precipice. He had memorized his sermon. He was a young guy. He came to the end of his sermon. He was preaching on the Second Coming, and
he said, "Behold, I come quickly. The Lord said, 'Behold, I come quickly.'" He went blank, and he couldn't think of what
the next line was in his sermon. So he thought, "I'll say it again. 'Behold, I come quickly.'" Nothing. Third time, "Behold, I come quickly." He hit the pulpit so hard, it fell, and he
landed in a lady's lap. He said, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." She said, "Why are you sorry? You warned me three times." [laughter] So on that, we ought to end. AUSTIN: I think so, yeah. [applause] Thank you. Will you close us in prayer? JOHN: Sure. We thank you, Lord, for the wonderful time
together tonight. Thank you for your mercy and your grace to
us in Christ. Thank you for your Word. So astounding that we can hold in our hand
your entire revelation, and we can read it and understand it. You give us the faith to believe it, the wisdom
to grasp it, what a treasure. The world by wisdom can't know you, but we
as simple and humble as we are, know the mind of Christ, understand the deep things of heaven. What a blessing. Thank you for your mercy to us in Christ and
for our wonderful fellowship tonight. We give you praise in our Savior's name, Amen. END
