Questions & Answers with Kim, Lawson, MacArthur, and Nichols

[Applause] so i've introduced dr lawson i've introduced dr nichols and uh i have two representatives here today from the people's republic of california so of course you all know dr joel kim and uh and sir um i'm sorry what was what's who's this oh that's right what did rc always call you johnny mack is that right call me johnny mac but he also called me boris yes that's right now that you've brought that up you're gonna have to tell the story well some years ago boris yeltsin the premier whatever title is of russia climbed up on a tank in moscow and stopped some revolution and so he always felt that i was the guy who would stand up and fight the heretics so he nicknamed me boris actually last spring and summer as we saw what was developing there i thought there goes boris again and uh i'm always looking for a tank to stand on [Laughter] the way the churches had to respond through all of these different uh changing circumstances um it certainly differs in various parts around the world and uh we're grateful for um the boldness and the church's commitment to continue to meet uh church is essential and that is a message that we certainly resonate with and we're just grateful that you've been able to uh to be with us dr macarthur and be with us dr kim dr kam serves as president at westminster seminary california and you're the fourth president there is that right i am and if you know anything about the institution the three predecessors were robert strimple robert dendolk and robert godfrey i don't know if you noticed the pattern there they're they're all roberts can i call you bob well this is where our dear friend bob godfrey when i was appointed in making the announcement suggested that i changed my middle name to robert so that they could call me joel bob or jb and so i go buy any of those things just to stay in line we're off to a good start this afternoon if you've never been to one of our uh ligonier conferences before and never seen our time of q a it's a time where we try and get through as many of your questions as possible and try and use this to kind of elaborate on some things that have already been said but also to have broader and wider range of discussion as well one of the things that we we talk about often it's in ligonier's vision statement is to propagate the reformed faith to propagate the reformed faith to the church throughout the world but let's just not take any assumptions here that people know what we're talking about when we talk about the reformed faith and so i'll i'll just throw it out for anyone who wants to jump in here can you briefly explain the tenets of reformed theology and does reformed theology continue to reform i think the place where it begins and more can be added to this but i think it does begin to define reformed theology with the five solos of the reformation sola scriptura sologratia solafide solas christos soledeo gloria and i think that that was a minimalist statement of the gospel that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone for the glory of god alone based upon the teaching of scripture alone and so the reformation reformed theology obviously coming out of the reformation was first and foremost a recovery of the authority of scripture that it is not scripture and the church not scripture and tradition not scripture and the pope but it is scripture alone and then the the next three solas define really who is in the kingdom of god and who is not in the kingdom of god who is going to heaven and who's not going to heaven and salvation is by grace alone not grace and anything that would have been added by the roman catholic church whether that be being born in the church married in the church whether that be indulgences whether that be prayers to saints whether it be treasury of merit whether that be even last rites whatever that it is solely by what god and god alone has done through his son is the merit of salvation and it is received exclusively by faith alone not faith and water baptism not faith and church membership not faith and good works it is by faith alone and that faith is a repentant faith that recognizes the lordship of christ and submits the life unto christ and then it is in christ alone it's not in christ and the church not in christ in any saints it is in christ alone only that is for the glory of god any departure from that is as stephen said in his first message is really a damnable message and so the reformation was really all about a recovery of that gospel and how sinful man can find acceptance with holy god it was further specified by what we would call the five points of calvinism or the five doctrines of grace which is looking at it from another angle what god has done to save sinners that man is wretched and totally depraved unable to save himself nor commit himself to god even unable to believe being dead in trespasses and sin that god the father chose his elect before time god the son died for these elect upon the cross and god the holy spirit brings conviction of sin and regenerates those that are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin so it's a trinitarian work as stephen brought out this morning and then finally it it is a work it is a lasting work that endures throughout time and eternity and one can never fall away from that grace now other things can be added to that and rc's book what is reformed theology add some other specifics and nuances to that but at its at its base entry level i i think reformed theology falls within those confines and you can also add the doctrine of providence that the reformers saw that god was sovereign over not only salvation but over the building of the church over the affairs of this world and administrates his own eternal decree by bringing to pass whatsoever he foreordained so it goes down to the very events and circumstances of of life and so it's a the question is simple and we could have a whole series of conferences on just answering what that is there was some diversity as you build out but at the very epicenter of that those five solas and those five doctrines of grace i think form the infrastructure and again that going back to eternity past and even an intertrinitarian agreement before time began in the carrying out of all of this so i'll just hop in to begin that sorry for the long answer but it's a great answer if i humbly say so myself because it is the truth and we need to shout that from the housetops [Applause] so the follow-up to that was does reform theology continue to reform we've heard about semper referenda i was going to stay quiet the whole day today that was my job i have brothers here who are more learned and smarter than i am and i want to learn from them as well oftentimes as we discuss reformed theology and in particular this phrase church always reforming it's used often to indicate a desire for certain change or certain ways of responding to present-day change that is to say that the church should adapt and adopt to the new situation giving answer to what's taking place now that's a very admirable goal and i think many of us can agree that what we understand about our theology and teachings of scripture should address the challenges as well as the needs of our time but it's often misused in this way that is to say that it indicates that the church must be flexible in terms of what it believes in and where it stands and i don't think that was the intention of the use of the phrase dr lawson was so articulately describing the core understandings of doctrines of grace i would be one of those guys that might add a few things to it in terms of remembering that that is a part of the larger sovereignty of god at work and even further that's because scripture is at the base of all these things where the authority of the word becomes the basis for all that we do and i bring that up in particular that phrase is church is always reforming is actually a passive notion the church is being reformed is the idea but being reformed also indicates that there is an external agency involved it's not the church simply wanting to change for the sake of change but it's being changed from that which is outside that is god in his word is the one that continues to inform uphold and grow the church and so as an understanding of the growing maturity of the church upon the foundation of the word it's an agreeable phrase that i think articulates our desire to be faithful articulators of our faith to every generation and not just the previous generations but as an articulation of church's flexibility which is oftentimes used i don't think that's the case it's about sovereign god through his word establishing the church and strengthening and growing it is the idea that's implied how or in what way are we made in the image of god well i martin you yeah what did i say um what were you thinking of specifically well you had three key words that define that and um no you got it you remember them i'm trying to remember back to that sermon it was phenomenal it was three weeks ago pretty sad well the ways that come to mind first of all in that we are designed for relationship that is being created in the image of god god is a trinity let us make man in our own image so um unique to all creation we can establish relationships [Music] relationships that basically carry the rich realities of life i think secondly we can create animals do what they do by instinct but they have no creative powers but when you look at the human realm the gap between whatever the highest form of animal is and what man is is this massive massive gap in which there's nothing created and by creation i don't mean you you make you create something in the divine sense that you make something exist that never existed nor did its components exist but rather that you can take all that exists and out of that create that it's not just a matter of instinctively reproducing the same exact behaviors in the same exact environments that's why there's music and there's art and there's science and there's medicine and well there's all forms of of learning all forms of knowledge vast incomprehensible i was talking to a girl last sunday who is a mathematician with a phd in math and she was talking to me in language i did not understand and not in the least that i understand i didn't even know the vocabulary but she she is one of the most brilliant minds in math she works for google x and is a believer and we think about god we think about psalm 19 the heavens declare the glory of god the firmament shows us handiwork day and night declare his glory the sun takes the solar system across its own orbit and all that shows god and as lay people as with minimum observable capacity with minimum i should say observational capacity we can see that but what what you can't see she can see because she goes down to the very depths of the mathematical structure of the universe in ways that were absolutely beyond my comprehension and all she discovers there is god the glory of god in the in the micro in the minutia in the smallest possible possible conceivable way everything is mathematically connected and the schemes are absolutely inviolable and invariable and so she sees the order of god at a depth that i don't see it but that's because she is given by god the creative the powers along with intellectual powers to plumb the depths of things that non-humans could never ever plunge to so those are the two things that come to mind when i think about created in the image of god and the other thing that i would emphasize is that we are eternal we live forever and that is the the lasting way in which we bear the image of god did i get it yes sir you got it don't don't mind us we spend a lot of time kidding each other do you have to hold knowledge of the gospel to be saved and the follow-up question i think informs where they were trying to take that do you do you have to hold knowledge of the gospel to be saved can those with intellectual disabilities be saved you know as i go ahead it's your turn i i think a couple of things i think number one as we look in scripture we do have the simplicity of the sinner's prayer lord have mercy on me a sinner and i think there is a basic realization there and i think that's different than someone who is knowingly rejecting a proposition of the gospel has maybe explored the doctrine of the incarnation and has adopted a heretical view of christ as the god man i think we can see that as a barrier and a hindrance to the gospel while not expecting anyone to have a saving faith to have the articulation of a nicene calcidonian formulation of the incarnation so as i think about this notion of the propositions that are necessary to the gospel that are necessary to a saving faith i think we can distinguish between those that are rejecting the propositions and then that simple plea that simple sinner's prayer lord have mercy on me and recognizing my sinfulness and recognizing my substitute and maybe not able to articulate a full christological statement but recognizing those fundamental truths yeah i think just to emphasize what you said this morning [Music] you can't believe a false gospel and be saved but you can believe the true gospel without a full understanding of every aspect of the full gospel because we would all agree that probably every one of us was saved with a less than complete understanding of all the richness of the gospel maybe this is something that will help people continually ask practically how do you present the gospel how should we present the gospel and i would just give you just a simple little pattern to think of you have you have one access point to a sinner and only one and that is the sinner knows he's a sinner because the law of god is written in his heart and his conscience accuses him you you have no access with regard to the gospel in the sense of who god is or who christ is because that knowledge is alien to him he understands not the things of god but what the sinner does understand is his own sin and that is why life is so hard for the sinner that is why there's so little satisfaction fulfillment hope joy meaning significance that is why he drinks takes drugs changes partners because there's a wretchedness in his own soul look the heart is deceitful above all things that desperately wicked and who can know it in the sense that you know it well enough to do something to change it but the sinner knows he's a sinner so the the only possible way you can initially approach a sinner and have him affirm you is to confront the sinfulness of that person that's why the apostle paul says that he uh he he proclaims the manifestation of the truth in second corinthians 4 and even even commends himself to non-believers how do you commend the gospel to a non-believer how do you get a non-believer to say wow that's the truth not by preaching the resurrection at the first not by preaching the deity of christ you commend yourself to the sinner with regard to the gospel when you tell the sinner what he already knows that he is sinful and the first thing you do then is to confront the sinner at the point of contact of his sin call for repentance and the cost of repentance okay that's that's the entry point do you understand that you're a sinner do you desire to be delivered from the presence power and consequence of your sin here's the cost of that repentance the second thing is to say god has made a provision if you repent for you to be forgiven and delivered from that sin that's where you talk about the person and work of christ and then the next thing you say with joy is if you repent and believe in the lord jesus christ and his work god promises to forgive your sin and take you into eternal heaven [Music] that i think puts the point of contact that the only place that it's viable for the sinner you say well the sinner may reject that confrontation there's nowhere else to go right you don't need a savior if you don't know you're a sinner what are you being saved from only only those crushed broken under the weight of their own sin fearing the judgment of god flee to the salvation that's offered so i think that first approach identifies whether the spirit of god at that point has prepared that heart how else do you know that the spirit has done the work that you can't do you can throw the seed you can't plow the soil so how do you know when the spirits prepare to heart when there's an eagerness for repentance a willingness to pay the price of repentance because the desperation is that high and all they want to know is what do i do to be saved we had a related related to that question came in we know that regeneration is all a work of god but can people affect when they or others are regenerated no that's solely in god's hand the one who is dead and trespasses in sin has no moral ability whatsoever it's and the new birth is what we call a monarchistic regeneration not synergistic where there are two operating parties god and the center it's monergistic in that there is only one active agent capital a at work in the new birth and that is god and so the sinner has no more ability to determine the time of his spiritual birth than he had ability to determine the time of his physical birth there's nothing that any of us have done to determine when in history we were physically born into this world that was exclusively a sovereign choice by god that was made before time began and there is no plan b there is no plan c there is only plan a and so the same is uh absolutely true uh with the new birth god has appointed the time of our entrance into his kingdom not only that we would enter the kingdom but god has orchestrated all of the events of the sinner's life not only when they would be born again but who would bring the gospel to them what the verse would be that god would use as the entry point into their heart god was in control of whatever was going on in their life if they were being humbled if they were being traumatized whatever that's that's all in god's hand and so he makes us willing in the day of his power um and so that's why when we get to heaven and we are given a crown it'll be on our head for about half of a millisecond and it'll be immediately tossed back at the feet of the lord jesus christ because he and the father and the spirit they determined when we would be saved they determined that we would be saved they determined everything they executed everything they brought everything to pass and so there's no way that the sinner even through initial resistance to the work of the spirit no sinner is greater than god god is the almighty he is omnipotent and so god brings about our new birth at exactly the millisecond he so sovereignly desires some of us were converted in our youth others of us were regenerated in college others in a latter year in life and all of that was foreordained and predetermined by sovereign god in heaven so therefore to the praise of the glory of his grace it all goes back to god from him through him and to him are all things to god be the glory forever and ever amen [Applause] cessationism please explain it so this is related to the sign gifts and it's the view that the uh sign gifts have ceased that they were there in the apostolic age in the life of the church that is that you put this in a biblical theological context you see that signs or miracles or wonders were there to give attestation to the prophet to give attestation to the message and so we don't see them all over the bible we see them at specific moments where god is is breaking in in redemptive history uh we see them in the the lives of the prophets as they come along and give the prophetic message and then are verified by these signs and so it was with the apostles and so these sign gifts functioned as that apostolic era was then coming to a close with the canon of scripture those sign gifts have fulfilled their purposes and have ceased and so we call that view cessationism the other side of the coin is non-cessationism that sees those signed gifts continuing in the life of the church and the challenge with that non-cessationist view is ultimately i believe it's a challenge to the sufficiency of scripture that we have in scripture all that we need for life and godliness and we don't need these signs to come along and it's it's very fascinating even as you look at the the author of the book of hebrews early on in those verses of the opening of hebrews speaks of how it was to them the apostles that were the signs and the wonders that it was attested to and there's even a distancing there as hebrews as one of the later new testament epistles and so we see it even within the canon of scripture this reflection on the purpose of the sign gifts but cessationism is these sign gifts have ceased with the apostolic era and the closing of the canon just add a footnote and that's exactly right but to to help you with that in the con temporary setting the only people who openly and publicly claim sign gifts have bad theology and if god was going to validate anybody it wouldn't be them amen at what level at what level should pastors and leaders within the church be open about their own sin or failures are there dangers of too much versus too little public confession well as a point of beginning i think it depends on what the sin is number one um and second how widely it is known um if a pastor falls into immorality he's disqualified from pastoral ministry and i think that as he resigns from his church there needs to be a full confession of his sin for that for which he has fallen into um if the pastor in driving to church misses a green light and is frustrated and hits the steering wheel i don't think that needs to be you know confessed before the church i mean those would be the two opposite ends of the spectrum and um i think probably at times that there are excesses in both directions i think there are times that that pastors give me way too much give way too much detail almost glorifying the sin in some ways on one end of the spectrum and there have been times in my pastorate where i've had to get into the pulpit the next week after i have misused my tongue and humor for example and because my sin was before the whole church um as i would um improperly use humor to to have the whole church laugh at one person from the pulpit then the next week i knew i needed to get back into the same setting before the same congregation and confess that i had misused my tongue from the previous sunday i don't think there's a hard fast formula on this and i think every person's conscience is a factor and the conviction of the holy spirit but i don't think every sin needs to be laundered in front of the congregation i i don't think that's of any help and i think it's a false humility quite frankly or an incredible spiritual immaturity to think that everything needs to be paraded but there are times that i think depending upon the sin and the setting that you do need to i agree with everything dr lawson said i i think there's it's a wisdom call in terms of how how much and what we live in a generation and time where authenticity transparency these are all things and traits that are heralded and and in many ways that's helpful but i think it's a wisdom call as to how much and what if i can take it from a different angle and perhaps add to it this way there is and and part of that is my own upbringing as well part of that is what we see in our church community there is a sort of a separation and distancing of the pastor and the pastorate versus the lay and the self-isolation of the pastors because they feel uncomfortable or at least they're concerned to be able to openly share some of the concerns and the sins that perhaps that they're struggling with and this is not an ad you know i'm not advocating that we somehow share these things widely and openly to all the congregation members it's not what i mean by it but i do think given where we are and especially in the setting in which we are training future pastors as well their honesty about their own sins and being able to be with people with whom they can be honest and not just be isolated in their ministry is also very important not only for their spiritual health but longevity as well i see a lot of my peers um you know when you're slightly younger i think there are great aspirations about what you might want to do and every seminarian graduates with hopes and dreams about how the lord might use them and then you reach a certain point where my dad was in ministry four decades my grandfather stayed in one church for 39 years at that point your mindset is i want to finish well that's the goal i want to finish the race well faith faithfully and lift up the name of christ jesus in my ministry and my life and in order to run that race forgive me i probably am least qualified to speak on this they need a group of people uh with whom they can be honest about these things so if we're talking about honesty and pastoral ministry and sinfulness with the congregation that's completely a wisdom call to what degree and what when it comes to the need for that honesty and transparency with people i think that's a necessary way to sustain the marriage by god i mean not marriage but ministry by god's grace but in order to do that you need to you do need to be surrounded with people that you can be honest to what does discipleship what does discipleship practically look like in the local church how are the elders to model discipleship specifically with the individual members of their congregation is the jesus with his disciples or the paul timothy relationship are they a practical model of life on life practical discipleship well that that's something that we've worked a lot on you have to remember the great commission is to go make disciples and how do you do that by teaching them to observe all things whatsoever i have commanded you so discipleship is simply the process of teaching the greek word is mates and it means learner so i sometimes i think we assume that discipleship is primarily just the the mentoring practical side it's it's really passing on divine truth because people live and make decisions based on convictions there's a process with the truth at first you understand it then you believe it then it takes over your life because it becomes a conviction and then the next step would be affection for for new believers first comes understanding and then comes belief and then you want to get to the point of conviction and then you want them to mature to the point of affection so full discipleship would be where you love the truth where you have passed down the love of the truth and i think discipleship then at its primary heart is content based it's based on passing the truth of the word of god the living and abiding word of god to someone else and we tell our people find somebody who knows more than you do and learn from them find somebody who knows less than you do and teach them what you know everybody should be in the flow of passing on the truth and so as a church you know we would find every conceivable way to put people together in every kind of group there is there is with that as the goal all the time no matter what the group definition is might be a home bible study might be a fellowship group a sunday school class it might be a men's group a woman's group it's always geared around making the word of god clear passing the word of god down so that it becomes the the truth that eventually becomes their conviction and their love and the other thing about discipleship is sometimes you can do it without personal contact i have to believe as a pastor that i have discipled many people that i've never met um uh we were we were of an oklahoma city eating at a at the stockyards some guy took us to a cattleman's steakhouse it's one of those you know high falutin places where the steaks are 7.95 and this waiter is waiting on us he's a big burly oaky guy [Music] and he heard the man who had taken us there pastor referred to me as macarthur he said are you john mcarthur and i said yes yeah i am no what am i what am i doing in this hokey steakhouse in oklahoma anyway long story short [Music] his name is billy jack and billy jack was so overwhelmed because he came to christ listening to me preach and he told me 27 years an alcoholic and then he's been saved and he's had no desire for that he only desires the word and then he said could i hug you and i'm sitting down in this sunken booth you know and he pounced and hugged me and i thought to myself this small encouraging sweet providence had nothing to do with me owing him knowing him at all but it did have to do with me passing the truth onto him so that he felt a life connection to me so it's about the truth and it's about doing everything you can to put the truth in someone's life and it's even more powerful and effective if you do know them personally because you can undergird the truth with how you live and so it happens it happens when you're not around through the mechanism of the media but it happens with an even greater intensity when you are life on life [Applause] what counts as the gospel going to all the nations is it reformed theology and the understanding of the gospel or is it simply an open call to repentance well the gospel is what stephen laid out for us in the first message so well um and to reduce it down it's basically you're a great sinner and christ is a great savior and the only way you may have the great salvation that the great savior has come to provide is through repentance and faith which is exactly what john said in his earlier answer what reformed theology does is it brings it more sharply into focus what god has done and who you are and the full ramifications it's like going from black and white to seven color and so reformed theology really opens up the lens and and gives the the most vibrant picture of this salvation however you don't have to be a calvinist in order to be saved there are calvinists in hell who never truly believe the gospel and there are armenians in heaven who have believed the gospel but we love reformed theology because it's biblical theology and and it causes the the brilliant colors of the gospel to shine more brightly uh the darkness of sin is even darker when you understand total depravity the the the glory of grace shines even brighter when you understand it was from eternity past and what christ actually came to do upon the cross with a definite atonement and the irresistible effectual call of the holy spirit it it causes you to glory in that gospel all the more and that you can never fall away from this grace once you are enfolded into this work of god but that takes place usually after conversion that that you grow in the grace and knowledge of the lord jesus christ and you understand all the more what it is that god has done but you don't have to in order to be saved you don't have to understand all of the nuances of reformed theology that's a part of really a progressive sanctification for for the most part and the fact is i mean i'm still learning and steven's still learning we're all still learning the height and depth and the breadth and the length of the love of god towards us in christ but nevertheless even a child can be saved because they've put their faith and trust in the one who has died for them upon the cross and are painfully aware that i have sinned and and violated the holiness of god and i desperately need his grace but i think we need to make a distinction you know between those two the gospel and then the fuller the full counsel of god the full purpose of god in reformed theology but if we talk about as was talked about earlier um the sovereignty of god as the wrap around you might think well you don't want to get into the sovereignty of god in evangelism that's way too much and then you go back and read john 3. and jesus is evangelizing nicodemus and nicodemus says okay what do i do to be born again and jesus says he didn't say pray this prayer he said the wind blows where it wills and we hear the sound of it comes and goes so is the holy spirit what a what a bizarre answer um i don't think you've ever had an evangelism class that would have taught you to give that answer the basic answer was you don't do anything to be saved it's the will of god through the work of the spirit and god chooses whom he saves jesus told nicodemus that he could do nothing he didn't give him a prayer to pray he said this is the work of the spirit of god and he does it to whom he will when he will that is jesus evangelizing at the very essential point that you have to establish this is a sovereign work of god you don't activate activate it by say these words pray this prayer you cry out to god to be gracious and save you by his own will amen would you join me in welcoming thanking our panelists this afternoon thank you you

Channel: Ligonier Ministries

Views: 222,295

Rating: 4.7786517 out of 5

Keywords: christian, christianity, god, joel kim, john f macarthur, john macarthur, john macarthur q&a, ligcon, ligonier ministries, ligonier national conference 2021, ligonier q and a, ligonier q&a, ligonier q&a john macarthur, ligonier questions and answers, questions, reformed, reformed theology, stephen nichols, steven j lawson, steven lawson, the bible, theology

Id: vlSwENPCMZI

Length: 47min 27sec (2847 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 18 2021