I'm joined by Senator Bernie Sanders. Senator, welcome back to the program. You've been very vocal for a long time on the war on American policy. And now on these protests and the crackdown. But first, I want to ask you, do you believe President Biden got it just right? Or what would you say in his first comments about these protests? Well, he's exactly right, is that we don't want protests that are violent and we absolutely will not tolerate anti-Semitism. Or Islamophobia, homophobia or any form of bigotry. Of course, he's right on that. But I think, Christiane, it is important to understand why these protesters are out there and they are out there not because they are pro Hamas. They are out there because they are outraged by what the Israeli government is now doing in Gaza, which is bringing unbelievable, obnoxious us to the terrorist organization, to Hamas, but to the entire Palestinian people. And that's why these anti-war demonstrators are out, that they do not want to see a situation continue where a 110,000 Palestinians out of, you know, 5% of the population have been killed or wounded, where children now face starvation, hundreds of thousands of children face starvation because Israel is refusing to allow humanitarian aid to get to where it has to go, where two thirds of the homes in Gaza have been destroyed or damaged with the entire civilian infrastructure, water, electricity has been annihilated, educational systems. Every university in Gaza has been bombed. So I think it's important to understand why these young people are out there and they are out there for the right reasons to protest US continued military aid and money to a right wing extremist Netanyahu government, which is in a destructive war against the Palestinian people. Senator, the last time we had you on the program was a few weeks ago when there was an effort. Maybe it was successful. I don't remember to try to tie American military aid to certain respecting of international humanitarian law, the rules of war, etc. In the interim, the United States has passed a law which provides more military aid to Israel, along with Ukraine and etc.. And you, I remember you telling me not one penny of our money should they get the Israelis until they agree to the rules of the game. What happened Well, what happened is no one or I was unable to even offer an amendment to the effect that the United States should not provide more money for offensive weapons to Israel couldn't even get an amendment on the floor. And number two, by a very strong vote, Republicans and Democrats voted to continue funding on Netanyahu's war machine. And what is ironic to me, you know, we talk about protesters at Columbia UCLA, understand that such as protesters, a strong majority of the American people do not want to see more US taxpayer dollars going to Netanyahu's destruction of the Palestinian people. We all understand Hamas is a terrorist organization that started the war. In my view, Israel has the right to go to war against Hamas. They do not have a right to go to war in the way they are against the Palestinian people. And most Americans now feel the same way. Do you feel, Senator, that and we talked last time about leverage. Obviously, America has massive leverage because of its very strong FULL-THROATED shoulder-to-shoulder all those words alliance with Israel and all the billions of dollars that it sends. But do you think the students are reacting to the fact that their government does not seem to be using any leverage? Yes, of course. They all look. It is one thing if a terrible tragedy or a terrible war takes place in some part of the world where the United States really has no involvement, that is not the case in Gaza. The United States of America has historically and is right now the legislation that you talked about. We're talking about over 19 billion more dollars going to Israel, including a $10 billion, an unfettered military aid. So, of course, the United States government has the right to say to Netanyahu just why you're not getting another nickel unless you let humanitarian aid go in, unless you stop the imminent famine, which we are seeing, unless we move toward a two state solution. When you are paying the bills, you call the tunes. Has the United States government done that? No, it is not. And I think students and the American people understand that that is very wrong. You gave a speech on the Senate floor last night, and I posted it and it was essentially a really important lesson on history, on protest and the anti-Semitism that you've just been talking about, what constitutes it and what doesn't tell me in your view. Where does the where do these protests fit in the history of American student protests? Look, I must tell you that as a young man, I was involved in civil rights demonstrations. I was arrested in taking over the administration office at the University of Chicago because there was racism and segregation going on at that time. The truth of the matter is, if there had not been protests and Sit-Ins and demonstrations, we would not have made the progress we have made in this country in combating racism and ending the apartheid form of government that existed in many parts of the country. If there had not been millions of people, mostly women coming out into the streets and saying that they are sick and tired of being second class citizens, they want a right to control their own bodies, we have would not have made progress in the struggle for women's rights or if we had not had demonstrations saying that we've got to end homophobia in America, we've not they would not have made the progress we have made. Demonstrations is what, in the right to dissent, the right to protest. That is what the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States is all about. That's what, in fact, makes you a free country. Being a free country means that somebody goes out and demonstrates you have to agree with them. They have the right. That's the difference between autocracy and dictatorship and a free country. Mm hmm. I want to play for you because this this definition where where does the line get crossed between anti-Semitism and criticizing a government policy on this program? Last night, our colleagues at PBS talked to Kenneth Stern. He was the person who led the drafting of of of the bill that would codify this this definition for the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. It is the definition that stands to this day. And this is what he said I jealously guarded the term anti-Semitism to have a sting. It has to be used only in the clearest case. So I always default to not. Now there's a push to make it almost ubiquitous. And when everything becomes anti-Semitic, nothing is anti-Semitic. And that makes it harder to fight anti-Semitism. I wonder what you think of that, given the fact that it's been really politicized and all sorts of bills and new laws and things passing through Congress and the Republicans is using it a lot Well, all I would say is anti-Semitism is a vile, a vile and disgusting ideology, which is everybody knows in the last 100 years alone, it's led to the deaths of many, many, many millions of people. We've got to fight anti-Semitism in every way that we can or for anybody to suggest that we cannot be critical of the government of Israel or the government of Italy or the government of Ireland, you know, for whatever reason is not what democracy is about. So I happen to believe not everybody agrees with me that the war policies of the Netanyahu government are a disaster or they are causing unprecedented harm. They are in violation of international law and absolutely in violation of American law, by the way. But I think people who are critical, the idea that people who are critical of what Netanyahu is doing are anti-Semitic, that is nonsense. And that is a very, very dangerous line to cross in terms of freedom of expression in this country. And for our generation who grew up in the era of never again and are very, very committed to that. I think it's really tough when we see this word weaponized and maybe lose its sting and its importance, as Kenneth Stern warns. So I want to ask you. My question to you is, what do you think now is going to happen to Biden and his campaign? Where do you think all of this is going to lead? Because it's also about American foreign policy Well, in terms of his campaign, you know, I am thinking back and other people are making this reference that this may be Biden's Vietnam or Lyndon Johnson in many respects was a very, very good president domestically, brought forth some major pieces of legislation he chose not to run in 68 because of opposition to his views on Vietnam. And I worry very much that President Biden is putting himself in a position where he has alienated not just young people, but a lot of the Democratic base or in terms of his views on Israel and this war. So I would hope very much that from certainly a policy point of view, from a moral point of view, the president supports giving a blank check to Netanyahu. And I would hope and on the hope that they understand that from a political point of view, this has not been helpful. Quite the contrary. Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you for joining us.
