♪ (GRANDIOSE MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ ROGER BENNETT:
Welcome back, to HBO's
Band of Brothers Podcast. This is Roger Bennett, I say "Flash,"
you say "Thunder." Episode four, "Replacements." This ensemble narrative, reinforces the notion
of brotherhood at the heart of the series. Revolving around
the central themes of inclusion and exclusion. The latter experienced
by those green replacements, the new men, who yes, have gone
through paratrooper training, but at the beginning
of this episode at least, they've yet to be tested
in the crucible of combat. The naivety and innocence,
which would soon be shattered. (CARWOOD LIPTON CLEARS THROAT,
EXHALES DEEPLY) CARWOOD: Well, hate to break
the mood here boys, but we're movin' out again. ROGER: Easy Company
is in high spirits as they're briefed
on their next mission. They'll play a crucial role
in Operation Market Garden, a high risk, British hatch plan, at which the men would parachute
into the Netherlands, liberate the city of Eindhoven, and clear a path
for British armored divisions to batter their way
towards Berlin. LEWIS NIXON: The good news is,
if this works, his tanks will be over the Rhine
and into Germany. That could end the war,
and get us home by Christmas. ROGER: Despite the initial
stunning, beautiful, unopposed daytime jump, and a moment of wonder,
and delight as Easy Company are welcomed
as all-conquering heroes by a thronging Dutch crowd, during the joyous liberation
of Eindhoven, who once again
are exposed to the truth, that war is filled
with savage mood swings. As Easy enters
the town of Nuenen, the reconnaissance
mission discovers that the Germans situated there are far more equipped
and prepared than military intelligence
have ever believed. And what ensues is a battle, but they fall victim
to not only the Germans, but the age-old
British obsession -with protocol.
-(ENGINE REVVING) DENVER RANDLEMAN:
We've got a Kraut tank, hundred yards on the left
behind this haystack. DAVID WEBSTER: I don't see him. RANDLEMAN: Put a couple
of shells through that building, you're gonna see him real good. WEBSTER: I can't! My orders are no unnecessary
destruction of property. RANDLEMAN: I'm telling you,
he's right there. WEBSTER: Well I believe you,
but if I can't see the bugger, I can't bloody well
shoot him can I? ROGER: They retreat without
Staff Sergeant "Bull" Randleman, who's injured
in a tank explosion, and forced
to seek shelter alone, in a barn, behind enemy lines. That night, as Bull enjoys
a harrowing hand-to-hand encounter
with the German soldier, the men of Easy form a
search company, -to try and find their brother.
-(EXPLOSIONS RUMBLING) BILL GUARNERE:
There ain't nobody and there ain't nobody
fuckin' dead. Understand me? ROGER: Ultimately,
"Replacements," is an episode about that fraternal bond,
and courage, both of Bull, who makes his way back
to Easy Company
the following morning, and of his fellow paratroopers. It's also about war's neglect
of such virtues. As Ambrose writes in
the Band of Brothers book, quote, "Easy Company,
was as good as any company in the Allied
Expeditionary Forces. It had won spectacular victories
in Normandy, its morale was high,
its equipment situation good when it dropped
into the Netherlands. It had a nice mix
of veterans and recruits. Old hands and freshmen. Its officers were skilled,
and determined, as well as being brave. Despite this, in the first
ten days in the Netherlands, it took a hell of a licking." RICHARD WINTERS:
I don't like retreating. LEWIS NIXON:
First time for everything. RICHARD:
How are the other divisions
fairing up north? (NIXON SIGHING) LEWIS: I think we're gonna
have to find another way
into Germany. ♪ (GRANDIOSE MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ ROGER: My guest today, is the man who played
"Wild Bill" Guarnere. The fearless kid
from South Philadelphia who won a Silver Star
and two Purple Hearts among other decorations
during the Second World War. Losing a leg at the Battle of the Bulge
in Belgium, 1944. And in inimitable style, returning home to live
a remarkable life in Philly, as if unimpaired by the injury. His relationships
with the other men, especially Toye and Heffron
were living proof of Stephen Ambrose's words
in the Band of Brothers book, that "Comrades
are closer than friends, closer than brothers. Their trust in,
and their knowledge of each other is total and will never be repeated
with any civilian, not even
a wife, lover or child." It is a joy to welcome, a gent, who according
to the other actors, played that role of glue guy,
on the set throughout the shoot, Mr. Frank John Hughes. FRANK HUGHES:
Hey Rog! How are you? Great to be here. ROGER:
Frank, it is a joy to have you. Let us go right back
to the beginning you were a 33-year-old actor,
from the Bronx, you had a steady stream
of street-smart characters in movies like Bad Boys
with Will Smith. Tell us, how'd you first hear about this
Band of Brothers project? FRANK: I was in California
at the time. Got a call from my agent
that there was an audition coming up and it was based
on a book by Stephen Ambrose called Band of Brothers. I had known Stephen Ambrose,
but I didn't know the book. I went to Barnes and Noble,
I found it on the shelf,
I opened it up. And I read it in its entirety. ROGER:
Right there in the bookshop,
you're that kind of a gent? FRANK:
I've never done that before,
but I did it that time. I read the whole book standing. And by the time I had gotten
to the end of it, I said, "Somethin' really bad
is going to happen if I don't get this part." I was so hooked in.
I had no idea who I'd be auditioning for
because I think at the time we were reading what turned out
to be Colin Hanks' role. They were just blind sides
that they were giving us. ROGER: Lieutenant Henry Jones. FRANK: That's right. And I had done some research
on him, 'cause how I come about all my work
is very research heavy, and I had found out he had been
a West Point graduate. And I tracked down
like a West Point ring that I would wear
to the audition. I cleaned out all of the Bronx
out of my voice, and I went to the audition
with Meg Liberman. ROGER: Meg Liberman,
the legendary Band of Brothers
casting director. FRANK: She's cast me
in so many things besides Band of Brothers since. But I hadn't met her
until that point. And she was really
quite intimidating. She was sitting in the corner
of the room. Didn't say much, Angela Terry,
her partner, casting director was reading with me,
and we read the sides, it went well and then Meg spoke
and she said, "Frank, some of these guys
are gonna be dead end kids from like the Bronx and Philly, do you think you could
do something like that?" And I said, "I don't know,
Meg... maybe." -ROGER: She was on to you.
-FRANK: It went great, and that began
this multi-month-- Maybe about four or five times
that I came in
for these readings. ROGER: From then on
it was Guarnere. Three auditions in,
you're reading with Tom Hanks. Who, in your reading
with the great man, jumped a page in the script. Tell us what you did. FRANK: Every line was sacred. This is was all I had
to kind of book this job. And in character as Bill,
I said, "The hell are you doing,
you moron? What are you doing?" You know,
and it pulled him out of it, then he had realized
he had jumped. And he came back,
we finished the scene. And he leaned back
in his chair and he said, "Frank John Hughes,
you made my day." ROGER: I've got to say,
when you tell me,
Frank John Hughes, that Tom Hanks said,
"Frank John Hughes,
you just made my day!" I am not Frank John Hughes, but just hearing
that story thrills me, and hearing that one
fills me with joy. I can't imagine...
the joy you felt in that moment. FRANK: I just said,
"God I hope he's just not just saying that
to make people feel good." He should know about the power
that we're all hanging on every word that he's saying, looking for any clue
of how well we did. At that point, I made this joke. They had pictures up of all
the men on the walls. Research material.
And I saw Bill. I meant to say this to be funny. But I said, "You know,
Bill Guarnere gave his leg to serve his country, and I gave both of mine
to serve this project." And nobody laughed. It just came off
like psycho method actor. And I said, "I think I just cost
myself the job. Goddamnit." ROGER: You thought you'd just
creeped them out completely. FRANK: Completely.
It did not come out funny,
I was just so excited. And I left,
and I was really concerned, and my agents called me,
they said that they loved you, and there'll be
another audition. ROGER:
So into the final audition,
and after the Tom Hanks praise, you expected it maybe to be you, and possibly two other
potential Guarneres. But then you arrive, and it was essentially,
Guarnere lollapalooza. Describe the scene that met you. FRANK: That's exactly it, Rog.
I felt all the roles would be narrowed down to one,
or maybe two guys. So I expected there'd
be five roles, it wasn't. It was all the roles,
all the roles had tons of guys. I mean, it must
have been narrowed down, but I walked into this place
in Santa Monica, and there were hundreds
of guys there. I just said, "Oh, man." ROGER: And then you were like
"Hanks took me, he had me!" FRANK: That's right. So that was
another demoralizing thing. 'Cause once we got there
and I looked and I saw
all these famous guys, and I mean,
heavy duty famous people. I said,
"Oh, we're just cannon fodder.
Man, we're filler." One of the groupings
of all those people, were all those famous people. And they went in and I said,
"There's your cast. That's the cast of
Band of Brothers right there." Luckily, it wasn't. ROGER: You told
me something beautiful. You said essentially,
you decided that you had zero fucks to give. And you were just
gonna bring it. But you did
have one special superpower. Someone--
And it's a bit mysterious, I'm gonna be honest,
this part of the story. Someone had slipped you,
and I love this, the real
Guarnere's phone number... -FRANK: That's right.
-ROGER:
And some video footage. So you had
an inside track of types. I'm not gonna say who did that
'cause I'm an Italian-American -from the South Bronx
you never rat on anyone. But, after one of the auditions,
late in the process, I was with someone who said, "In this tape on my desk... may be some footage
of Bill Guarnere," which turned out to be the stuff
that was at the beginning
of each episode. It was a little bit of that
raw footage. Just a little bit. They said, "And his phone number
might be in there, but I can't say
that that's in there. And if I went to the bathroom,
and came back, and it was gone, I wouldn't know who took it,
it could be anybody." ROGER:
I love plausible deniability. FRANK: That's right.
So, that person left. I grabbed it. Went home, put it on,
and that's when I saw that Bill had
a substantial underbite. Now, Rog,
one thing about acting is, if you get four callbacks,
never change what you're doing. That's rule number one
of acting. -Never change what you're doing.
-ROGER: Yes. FRANK: Because
it's gotten you this far. I broke that rule,
and I just felt like people who knew
in the production, they would know what
that footage looked like. So, I experimented with it,
I stuck my jaw out. So, I go into this thing,
Rog, this is in a crazy room. Steven Spielberg's, he's just like
an independent filmmaker
filming the thing. He's like a kid
in a candy store. He's got the camera,
he's filming. Hanks is there,
the head of HBO is there. Tony To is there.
I went in and did it. And I dropped
the underbite on him. ROGER: You had the lace
in your pocket. You had actually spoken
to the real Guarnere 'cause you didn't just get
the phone number, you had the-- I don't know
a word for it, let's just say a certain confidence
to actually call the man. FRANK: I got that number,
I called him the night before the audition. It rings, it rings.
"Yowza." He picks up. ROGER: This is how he answers
the phone? (CHUCKLES) FRANK: Yeah. "Yowza!" I said,
"Mr. Guarnere..." "That's me." I said,
"My name is Frank John Hughes, I'm going to audition
to play you tomorrow, at a final audition--"
"Well, kid I gotta tell you right now,
they already got the guy. They got him, it's been cast." -ROGER: Oh, dagger!
-FRANK: (CHUCKLING) I said... "Oh, really? It's been cast?" "Oh, yeah, yeah, I met him,
and everything, nice guy, he's gonna be terrific." I said, "Okay, but, you know I got
an audition tomorrow. So I'm gonna go to it anyway. -Even if they've cast it."
-ROGER: How demoralizing -was that?
-FRANK: It stopped my brain. I didn't know how
to handle that. I just knew, "You got an audition tomorrow,
go to the audition." So, I said to him, "Well, Mr. Guarnere,
I'm gonna go to the audition
anyway tomorrow." And I said,
"Do you have any advice
on how to play you at 19?" He said, "Just remember,
I was a paid killer." "I was a paid killer. Anything
else I can help you with?" I said "No, sir.
I think that's good direction.
I'll keep that in mind." I said, "Mr. Guarnere... I know they've cast the guy,
but if for some reason, they change their mind
and I get it, I'm gonna take you
to a great streak dinner. I owe you a dinner
for this call." "All right kid, yeah whatever. It's a shame, you know,
you're nice. but, they already cast the guy."
I said, "Okay." The next day,
I went to the audition,
and that all played out. We got done, and I went
to Meg Liberman
at the end of it. I said goodbye to her, I said,
"Meg, I just wanna thank you, you've been so beautiful
during this whole process, thank you so much." She grabbed me and she said,
"Frank... I know who they should cast,
and I know who they wanna cast. I just hope... Everyone involved has the guts,
to cast the people
they wanna cast." And I left, and I got in my car.
And Rog, as you can imagine. Everyone in my life
was calling to find out... "How'd the audition go?
How'd the audition go?" And I called my dad,
I told him, "It went well." And another call came in while
I was still in the parking lot. And it was my agent,
and he said, "You got it." Rog, I gotta tell ya',
I had to drive from Santa Monica
back to the Valley, and I don't remember the drive. When I got to my house,
and got in the driveway, I got out and like, checked
the grill for hair and blood. I didn't know if I had
run over people because I literally had
an out-of-body experience
driving home. ROGER: I'm just imaginin',
young Frank John Hughes, rooftop down, Kenny Loggins'
"Danger Zone" blaring...
up to 11 on the highway. -FRANK: Yeah.
-ROGER: I mean,
this is an incredible story. There are so many levels
that are incredible, I mean, you took gut punch
after gut punch, thinking there'd be,
two, three of you at the thing. No, there were 300,
not just 300, but there were 300
including massive famous faces. Not just massive famous faces, but you called
the actual Guarnere,
and he had broken your heart. I can hear the sound
of your heart breaking
as you speak to him, saying, "Kid, the part's
already been given." Somehow,
and there's a life lesson in this for every listener,
but I need to know. Do you know, who the guy was, that went out for a drink
with Guarnere and told him
that he'd got the part, but didn't end up
being Guarnere? Who was the imposter Guarnere?
How did this all happen? FRANK: He wasn't an imposter. I was told by Hanks,
and Spielberg that I had to come to a hotel,
in Century City, that they were
gonna read a guy that they really loved
for Babe Heffron. And since he was my best friend,
they wanted to see us together. -ROGER: Chemistry.
-FRANK: Yeah, I said, "Sure." I get to this hotel.
There's a guy standing there. Goddamnit,
it's a friend of mine. It's the great actor,
Nick Sandow. ROGER: Joseph Caputo
in Orange is the New Black. FRANK: Me and him
had come up together
in the late '80s in New York, and we had done
a ton of stuff together. We did the audition,
he was absolutely brilliant. He just didn't look like Babe,
who was small and red-headed. And Nick is tall, and, you know,
not red-headed. So, that didn't work out.
So, when I talked to him after the audition, he says,
"I met Guarnere." I said, "What?" He said, "I met him."
I said, "How did you meet him?" He said,
"I got his phone number. I drove down to South Philly,
from Brooklyn. I went down there and I met him,
I took him to dinner,
and I took him out for drinks. He's the greatest guy
in the world." I said, "Son of a bitch,
you're the guy." ROGER: New York boys all-in. What was Guarnere like?
His biography is incredible. At the time
of Pearl Harbor, 1941, he was building tanks, at the old
Baldwin Locomotive Works in Philadelphia, which is a job,
considered crucial to the war effort, Guarnere,
could've taken exemption from military service,
but not him. He enlisted, August 31st, 1942,
and went to war. FRANK: You took this huge
geopolitical, global conflict, and it boiled down to a South Philadelphia
street fight. "You killed my brother,
you're all gonna -fuckin' die for that."
-ROGER: The brother who was killed in Casino, Italy.
That the real Guarnere found out by reading
somebody else's letter, right before Normandy. He read that, found out
that his own brother had been lost. FRANK:
In Johnny Martin's jacket, yeah. ROGER: In his own words,
he said, "I felt like the floor fell out from under me. I went into Normandy
with one goal, to leave
no German soldier alive." FRANK: That's right,
it was so personal. You took this,
really huge global conflict, and boiled it down
to something so personal. This revenge tale, and it's why he
was called "Wild Bill." He did things that other people
might not have done. because he told me many times, "I'd never thought
I'd last a day. I was gonna kill
as many people as I could before I got killed." He had that kind of
reckless abandon at first. It was squishing a bug.
It was just squishing a bug. That's what human life
was at that time. It's completely understandable,
first of all, he's barely -a man at this point.
-ROGER: Nineteen years of age,
dealing with deep trauma. FRANK: And it was so hard
to believe, Rog, based on the Bill I knew, who was gentle and loving
and kind and always had a kind word and funny.
But there were times, where something would happen,
his eyes would go black. And you would get a glimpse
of him, just for a flash. And you would say,
"I wouldn't have wanted to be on the end
of his Thompson, at 19-years-old."
It would just be a little flash of that paid killer
that was in there. That he had come to terms with. ROGER: A number of actors
were blessed to develop friendships with the men
that they portrayed in Band of Brothers,
the heroes they portrayed. You were blessed
that Guarnere was still alive very much still alive
in his late 80s, still in South Philly.
He was a huge, huge character. Can you give us
a sense of the man? FRANK:
The next day I called, though. I said, "Mr. Guarnere,
turns out I got it. So I owe you a steak dinner."
"Oh, really? Okay." And I talked to him about,
"Bill, I'm going to need you to open up about everything
that you've experienced in a way that you haven't
felt comfortable talking about before with people, but I've been tasked
with bringing your legacy to the screen,
and I need to know everything. I need you
to be fearless about that. It's very hard to do." ROGER: "I need you
to be fearless again." Incredible words, Frank. FRANK: Especially, because
it was the greatest generation, there weren't guys that sat
around and talked about it. And you know what, Rog?
He was a fearless man. And that began, six hours a day,
basically seven days a week of him telling me everything,
and this bonding experience where he became
like my grandfather. He held back nothing,
he was fearless. He had such a joy for living.
Playing Bill, made me a better man. Being in character as him,
made me a better man. He never complained. He was positive.
He was a joy to be around. He was loyal. And that love of life
really improved me as a man. He made me a better father,
a better actor, everything. He was one of
the funniest men I know. And in that little period
between getting cast, and going over there,
I was doing all this research. So I got an entrenchment too,
I started digging foxholes
in my backyard. ROGER: To prepare mentally
for the Band of Brothers shoot. That you wanted to dig
with your own hand, foxholes, which is what, in your mind,
and everyone's mind, it's what soldiers do, right? FRANK: I told him this,
and he said, "Kid, what are you doing?
I was the Staff Sergeant, we had people dig
my foxholes for me. Stop diggin' foxholes." Which was not only funny,
but was valuable. It was valuable to know
on a research level. Somehow, Major Winters
found out about this. I went to my mailbox one day,
I'd never met him. And I opened this letter, and it was
this incredible letter
that hangs in my office now, about Dick Winters hearing
that I was digging foxholes
in my backyard. He wrote and said, "This spirit
of doing this is what's gonna
make Band of Brothers special, and I honor you for this." And it was really,
a beautiful and thoughtful thing
for him to do. ROGER: So, to basic training,
one of the legendary experiences
of Band of Brothers, which you called,
and I love this, "Method on steroids." Forty Hollywood-ish actors,
sent to, quote, "boot camp," to become accustomed
to paratrooper ways,
paratrooper culture." We have heard, from so many
of the other actors,
that at this boot camp, you, Frank John Hughes,
actually thrived. FRANK: After I was cast,
I got Captain Dale Dye's
phone number. And if you, Rog, ever wanna
go to war on film, you wanna go with Dale. Dale is the best
in the business. He is a genius
at recreating war on film. Top to bottom, he's a historian,
it's just incredible. I got his phone number,
so I call him out of the blue. He doesn't know me, and I say, "Mr. Dye, I'm Frank John Hughes, I'm gonna be playing
Bill Guarnere, and I just wanted to know,
is there anything
I can do to train to be ready for boot camp?" And he says... I can't do Dale's voice, a lot of guys
do a great Dale Dye, I don't. But he said, "Well, I'm gonna tell ya'
this Hughes. A commanding officer
never gives away his plan. I'll tell ya' this, I'm gonna put you
through one nasty fuckin'
sausage grinder, you're gonna come out
one fine fucking soldier." And he hung up on me. (CHUCKLING) ROGER: What did that--
Frank I'm gonna ask you, what did that feel when you
hang up the phone there? After hearing that, was it like, "That's just Dale Dye,
doing Dale Dye?" Or were you like,
"Oh, my god?" Or were you like,
"Let me at this, this is
what I need in my life?" FRANK: It was all that.
But I feel like... "Oh, you know what,
now he's gunnin' for me. Now I'm on his radar.
That was a dumb move.
I shouldn't have called him." ROGER: You were the one
who was giving others
information like, "Lads, here's how you
break army boots in. You fling them
into the bathtub." And I need to know, where does all your
inside military information
come from? All my great uncles
had been in World War II. So I had grown up
hearing those stories. My father was in Vietnam.
So I had heard those stories. And then Bill just
gave me everything, and there was
no detail too small that I wasn't fascinated by. So, I was in
a very lucky position. I had access to people,
and to Bill in ways that other men did not.
Their vets were dead. So, anything I had,
I just shared with everyone, because everyone
was equally as intense about knowing every little thing
about the men they played. ROGER:
You even told your own son, "From now on,
call me Bill Guarnere." FRANK: Everyone in my family,
my agents, everyone. I was Bill, if I went to dinner,
it was Bill Guarnere. Dropping film off,
when you used to drop film off. Shot so long ago. You would drop the film off,
it would be for Guarnere. It is what I needed, but also
the production set this tone. That we were gonna be
in character for the year. And, you know look,
I'm from the Bronx, when you meet someone--
I immediately give you a nickname. So, your nickname might
as well be Perconte or Luz or Bull, or Lipton,
call you Lip, because we never got to know each other's names, it wasn't
high on the priority list. We had to be called
our character names. And I didn't really care
about knowing you outside of character for this year. I wanted to know who you were,
and I'll tell you, for about
three or four years after it, I still called everyone Perco and Luz, and Bull.
Lip, for Donnie's character. It was just such an honor
to be in a group of guys who all were hitting it so hard, and knew what they had
to do, and did it. It changed all of our lives. An actor is such
a selfish pursuit
in so many ways. You're going after these goals,
and what boot camp changed was, it made you care about everyone
else more than yourself. And that was the spirit
of Easy Company. They did it
a trillion times more. We got the smallest taste. But you would do that, you would put
the other guy first. And that carried all
the way through production. And in the last
20 years of our lives, it's why we're brothers now, it's why Mike and I
throw reunions every year. And why we have them every year.
We're family. It changed our lives forever,
our lives and our careers. ROGER: Let's talk about
this episode, "Replacements." In which you find,
Easy Company, September 13th, 1944,
in Aldbourne, England, relaxing around
the dartboard, in the pub. Many of
our old favorites are there. But we also notice new faces,
replacements, silent, but desperate to mingle in.
There's a great scene where you, Guarnere, handout
a simple piece of advice. -(INDISTINCT CHATTERING)
-BILL: You new boys, you pay attention
to Sergeant Randleman. Got that? That's the smartest man
in the company. ROGER: But tensions
flare anyway between the old, and the new soldiers. ROY COBB:
Where'd you get that? JAMES MILLER:
It's a Presidential Distinguished Unit Citation. For what the regiment
did in Normandy. COBB: That's right.
For what the regiment did. You weren't there. ROGER: It's a scene
that screams about the singular
sense of fraternity that the original men
of Easy Company experienced. One that was forged in Toccoa. From running
up and down Currahee, and then jumping into Normandy.
It was almost impenetrable. Even copious amounts of alcohol
couldn't bridge the gap. FRANK: In their defense,
during that episode, it wasn't like they didn't
wanna know these guys, of course they do. They just didn't want them
have their hearts broken
when they died, because they didn't know
what they were doing. They hadn't been tested yet. There was a practical reason
to being so tough on them, and keeping them
at arm's length. The Toccoa men were
a different breed. I ran Toccoa, with Donnie
and Scott Grimes, and Mike Cudlitz, HBO, before
it came out, put us together
and brought us there. Friggin' Toccoa, in August. It was a hundred degrees. You got Major Dick Winters
and Carwood, and everybody in the van
in front of us, while we run this
three miles up,
three miles down. My dad was a marathoner,
I was a long-distance runner, All of us were in great shape. ROGER: You guys were like,
"We survived Dale Dye bootcamp,
we can do anything now." FRANK: That's right,
but let me tell you, Currahee,
was a son of a bitch. It's a mountain
that you run up for 20 minutes, and then you run down
for another 30 minutes, and then back up.
It's constantly up and down. You never feel like you're
getting to the top of it. So, it was grueling,
it was a 100-degree heat. And when we got
to the top, Rog, Major Winters came up to me. And he said, "Frank, you've left part of yourself
on this mountain. And I want you to go home
with a part of this mountain." And Rog, I swear to you,
he took about seven minutes, to walk around the rocks.
'Cause the whole thing is just rocks.
It's not a smooth path. And he picked up this rock
and handed it to me. And it's one
of my prized possessions. -It's on my desk.
-(BENNETT EXHALES DEEPLY) That's incredible.
That's incredible. Both originals
and replacements then jump into the Sonse Forest,
northwest of the town of Son.
And I'm fascinated Frank, by the incredibly jump
landing scene in Band of Brothers,
how'd you shoot these scenes? This in particular was
an incredibly peaceful jump. FRANK: It was, and Bill
had told me that the jump in was just so enjoyable.
It was like a training jump. It was a beautiful day
and they met no resistance, and you know, Rog,
let's be honest, after the Normandy jump,
Jesus, anything is gonna feel like a walk
in the park after that. So when we shot it,
most of that, as I remember, is CGI, and they would
put people on cranes. And descend you down like in the winter sequence
in Normandy. When we come down with Damien,
Damien's on a 100-foot crane. For landings and stuff,
there were people on cranes for just the last 20,
25 feet to land. But most of it's CGI,
and I have to say, some of the most brilliant
CGI in the world was used in Band of Brothers because to me, the thing
that impresses me the most is all the breath
that comes out of our mouth, in six and seven, it's all CGI. We were actually sweating
to death when we shot that. It was in the summer,
we had no shirts on under our clothes,
and we were shivering, and we were actually
sweating to death, it was so hot. ROGER: Operation Market Garden
initially seems to go well, almost too well, as we find out, but the beautiful
Eindhoven liberation seeds huge set pieces, city wide celebration
set pieces, shot I believe, -on a replica Eindhoven set...
-(CROWD BUSTLING) ...built in Hatfield,
Southern England. Take us there,
what were they like to film? FRANK: It was beautiful
because we had people. We never had people
around us, you know? It was always just Easy Company and German soldiers
that we never met, and that were segregated
from us. The men who were playing
the German soldiers, we never ate with them,
we never saw them, they were kept
in a different part, we only saw them
on the field of battle. So, to just have extras,
and to have women. This was the most
testosteroned... film set in history. There were no women,
so just to have all these women
in different age groups, and children and older-- It was just
a beautiful day on set. 'Cause it was unlike
any other day I had had on set. ROGER: Where'd you get
so many Dutch-looking people as extras in England? FRANK: They were all from
England, but they crushed it. And I love-- Babe Heffron's
got his little cameo in there. He's there wavin' a flag. ROGER: The real Babe. FRANK: The real Babe. ROGER: The subsequent
reconnaissance mission to the nearby village
in Newnan, which we learn, thanks to Webster,
is Van Gogh's hometown, is shot, so kinetically,
the maneuvers, the tension, the multi-cameras,
it's agonizing. Watching you run house to house. No matter how many times
I've watched that episode, it turns a knot of anxiety
in my stomach. How exhausting was it
to shoot these scenes. What was your mindset
when you were clearing a house? FRANK: You're doing these
big scenes, multiple cameras, they take forever to setup. You don't wanna be the reason
why we gotta go again. "Oh, shit. So and so--"
You don't wanna be that guy. So, there is a certain tension.
And then, if you're in the right space,
mentally as an actor, you're creating this reality
for yourself. They're doing everything
production wise, to make this as real
and to fool your senses as possible.
We can never ever, ever remotely come close
to what real combat is. Ever, that's impossible. But this was as close
as you were gonna get to doin' it on film.
And you would surrender to that. And the nerves
would be there you'd be amped with adrenaline, you didn't
wanna screw up the shot. But, I'm tellin' you, Rog,
when they yelled "Action," you were not acting,
you were just soldiering. I still to this day don't know
where the lines come from in these combat scenes
where you're seeing people yell. I have no idea 'cause I don't ever remember
running lines with-- Someone posted a picture online once of a couple
of us running lines and I never remembered doing it. I don't know when I learned
the lines, we never ran lines. They just came out of us. It was the ultimate
method school of acting, 'cause everything was so real. It was just so real. So, yeah,
there was a lot of tension. Clearing the house,
something that Bill had told me
really stuck with me. He said that once
they were clearing houses, you take your positions,
you kick open the door,
you throw your grenade in, it explodes and you go in
and you clear the rest of it. He said, one time he had
kicked open the door, and something made him stop. He didn't wanna throw
the grenade in. And when he stuck his head in,
there was a Dutch family... just crouched down. They had thought
all the Dutch had left. This family
was still hiding there. And he would've killed them,
and he said, "It made me think of
who else did we kill accidently, you know,
it's such a messy business." I had that in my mind alot
when we were clearing houses. ROGER: We know
what happens next, Easy Company
uncover a superior force of elite German soldiers
and tanks, and they're forced
into retreat. -FLOYD TALBERT: Fall back!
-(EXPLOSION) -JOSEPH TOYE: Go! Go!
-GERMAN SOLDIER: Fire! ROGER: The episode
then focuses on the fate
of Bull Randleman. Can we talk about
Michael Cudlitz for a minute? Because the amazing thing
about Cudlitz is, that gent can
pull off the cliché of soldier with a cigar hanging
out of the corner of his mouth, but make it look natural,
and human. Because he plays
the part with both a swagger, -and a vulnerability.
-(FOOTSTEPS STOMPING) RANDLEMAN: I'mma say somethin'. GEORGE LUZ: To who? (FOOTSTEPS STOMPING) RANDLEMAN: Lieutenant Winters! -(FOOTSTEPS STOMPING)
-WINTERS: What is it? RANDLEMAN:
Permission to speak, sir. WINTERS: Permission granted. RANDLEMAN: Sir, we got
nine companies, sir. WINTERS: Yeah, we do. RANDLEMAN: Well, how come
we're the only company
marchin' every Friday night, 12 miles, full pack
in the pitch dark? WINTERS: Why do
you think, Private Randleman? RANDLEMAN:
Lieutenant Sobel hates us, sir. WINTERS: Lieutenant Sobel,
does not hate Easy Company,
Private Randleman... he just hates you. (SOLDIERS CHUCKLING) RANDLEMAN: Thank you, sir. FRANK: Mike was just brilliant.
Mike did Denver, and Vera, his wife, he did
the Randleman family a great justice. He was very
close with the Randleman family. He had a beautiful relationship
with them. Mike's just brilliant. And that's his episode
and you're right, Mike can put a cigar
in his mouth and make
it seem like a limb. It doesn't seem
like it's a prop in any way, you just can't imagine... that character without it,
it's so second nature. It's not a prop at all,
it's just an expression
of that character. This is the other thing, Rog, a lot of the men chosen
for the paratroops at that time, were smaller in size. The smaller size
actually helped you. Five-nine, some of the men
were five-two. And plus it was a different age,
where the average height
was about five-eight. So, a lot of us were
the same size. But Denver was bigger
than the other men. He was bigger, so we had
this incredible dynamic with Mike that felt,
so real and true to life. And his work
is just so brilliant. The fight scene with him
and the German. So tense,
and Mike crushed it throughout. ROGER: Bull Randleman's
separation, is agonizing, but it's also
another moment ultimately, in which the depth
of the brotherhood that lives and breathes
at the heart of the series
reveals itself. FRANK: When Mike shows
back up at the end of that, and I come up and greet him
with the other men... BILL: I don't know whether
to slap ya', kiss ya',
or salute ya'. I told these scallywags
you was okay. RANDLEMAN:
And they didn't listen? BILL: Nah, these salty bastards,
they wanted to go on a suicide run
to drag your ass back. RANDLEMAN: Is that right? BILL:
Yeah, I told them don't bother. (RANDLEMAN CHUCKLING) Never did like
this company none. FRANK: I had talked to Bill,
and Bill gave me that line, "I don't know whether
to slap you, kiss you,
or salute you," You know, and I ask production,
I said, "That's what Bill says." And they knew that I was talking
to Guarnere so much that they were very open
that if I had heard something, I could run it by them, and they
would allow me to use it. And that was one of those bits. ROGER:
That's a scene that is... It is Guarnere.
It's surface-level banter. But that just flows over
the deep undercurrents of love that these men
felt for each other. The writing was
so brilliant on this. And it's all in there,
and like I said, I just added, "I don't know
whether to slap you,
kiss you, or salute you." But it really sums up Bill. There's a sense of humor,
there's a heart, and there's a toughness. -That was Bill.
-ROGER: And a deep, deep love. FRANK: Deep love. These guys they were all like
married couples and this bond between Bill and Babe. Babe and Bill
were just inseparable. We'll never know, what that kind of
bonding relationship is like. ROGER: Around the time
you filmed this episode, you, Frank John Hughes, the man
who played "Wild Bill" Guarnere, performed... I can only
describe it as a special duty, you dressed
into your finest uniform. Looking every bit
the 1944 paratrooper with your jump wings,
and your blouse pants and screaming eagle. And you went
to Heathrow airport to pick up
two very special guests. Saluting them at VIP arrivals, yes, the real
"Wild Bill" Guarnere, and Babe Heffron
had returned to England. You were there to pick them up
to visit set. And I need to know,
what was that experience like? FRANK: It was like doing
a movie about The Beatles, and having Lennon
and McCartney show up. -(BENNETT GASPING)
-FRANK: That's what
they were to us. It was such a powerful moment,
I went there for the flight. I was in my pure wool,
class-A uniform, waiting. And the flight comes,
and I wait, and they're comin', and comin', and comin',
and comin', and comin'. And they missed that flight.
They weren't on it. So... (CHUCKLING)
All right, gonna be at Heathrow
another six hours. So, second flight comes. I go down there, I go,
"They gotta be on this flight." I'm waiting there,
here comes Bill. He comes around the corner,
off the plane, at full speed on his crutches, he was impossible to keep up
with on the crutches. You have to remember, Rog,
he had been without his leg, longer than he had been
with his leg, by many decades. So he was so comfortable. And he was strong as hell,
he had big shoulders. He was a very strong man. I salute, and he goes,
"Hiya, kid!" And he blows past me. That's how I meet Guarnere
for the first time. No handshake, and now
around the corner comes Babe,
carrying all the bags. "Hiya Frank!" I said, "Hello, Babe."
He goes, "He needs a cigarette." So we grab the bags,
and we go out, and when I get out there, Bill is propped up
against the wall, pure Humphrey Bogart, hat on a jaunty angle,
smokin' a Pall Mall. "Hello, sweetheart..." He's flirting with all
the women that are going by. And women just adored him.
He was so charming. And I said,
"This guy is gonna be a handful. This guy is gonna be
hard to keep up with." ROGER: Tom Hanks wrote... in the foreword
to Brothers in Battle,
Best of Friends, which is Guarnere and Heffron's
joint-written memoir, "Word of their presence
spread like wildfire, as if Elvis Presley
was on the lot. Everyone wanted to see
the men themselves, the troopers who's stories
we were telling, two of the Band of Brothers
who jumped into hell on earth in order to save the world." Give us a feeling of what
it was like when they were walking around these real men
seeing your imaginary representation of their world. FRANK: Tom's right,
I mean everything stopped. I was so cognizant of the fact
that many of the guys who I love so much as brothers
that were doing this, their vets were dead. So, this was the first time
they were getting to touch the source. Rog, you have to remember,
I have to introduce them, to-- I only know
the character names of these people. So... I'll never forget one of
the most powerful moments I had on the whole project, was when Babe and Bill came
that first day, and I was introducing him
to Richard Speight, who played Warren "Skip" Muck.
And I said, "Babe, this is Muck.
Muck, this is Babe." And Babe
got this look on his face. And he walked up,
and he put out his hand to Richard Speight
and he said, "Damn, kid, I was there
when you got it." -ROGER: Oh, my God!
-FRANK: My hair still stands up. I will never forget that.
It was at that moment I really-- These were not
in character names, these were their best friends. Whose names we were playing,
we were ghosts. It was like they were walking
around amongst ghosts, it's why Grace Nixon fell
a little in love with Ron Livingston. Why the Guarnere family
called me Grandpa. We were bringing back
these younger versions of themselves,
and it was super powerful. ROGER: There's a story
about Guarnere going up to another actor
and just quipping, "You've got a short career,
you're not gonna make it." But Tom Hanks wrote, that the fact Guarnere
had lost his leg, as he walked around the actors, was a living reminder
that the war was not glamorous, but the men of Easy Company
were and still are. FRANK:
That reminder never went away. And it lived in all of them. I was very conscious of that,
'cause we were shooting a scene where we were attacking
these German half-tracks. We'd shoot and they'd come out, and then we'd shoot the Germans
as they were on fire. And it was at that moment
that I realized, there could be
a post-traumatic stress element. I know it was many years later,
but that never goes away. I said to Bill, "Are you guys
okay, being here for this?" And Bill said,
"Absolutely, I'm fine." And then they started the scene, and while it was going,
I was right beside Bill
and he was so-- whispering to himself,
but you could hear him,
he was going, "Get him, get him, get him.
Get that one, get that one," like he was in that moment. It was very powerful to see. And then from there,
we went to Tom's office, and... Tom showed us
some of the footage
of the Normandy drop. Which was the first time
I had seen any footage
from Band of Brothers. They sat on the couch, Tom put on some tape
for Bill and Babe to watch of us flying over to Normandy,
a lot of the stuff in the plane. They were just gripped
watching it. I looked at Tom, and we both
had tears coming down our face. It was so powerful
to watch that footage with them
and see them so moved by it, and Tom put his hand
on my shoulder and he just said, "This is why we do it, Frank.
This is why we do it. For them." ROGER: These guys,
the real Guarnere, the real Heffron,
they lived life to the full. I mean, HBO gave them... an open tab,
and 24-hour limo services
when they were on set, and my Lord, they used it
and then some, right? They held court every night. You look into these guys,
this was for all of them. They were in their late 70s,
they were in their 80s. They had more testosterone... than any of us. These guys
were just other level. They drank everyone
under the table. They never slept.
Like you'd said, "What the hell
were these guys like at 19?" When we were going
to the premier, HBO flew everybody,
the families of the vets,
the vets, and all the actors. First, to the Waldorf Astoria
in New York, because from there, we were
gonna charter a plane to France. We're up with
the great Bill Martin,
who was Johnny Martin's son, a Vietnam vet,
a sniper in Vietnam. He's a great man. Him, me, Bill and Babe are-- We're leaving for the airport,
at like six the next morning. It's 4:35 in the morning,
we have been up drinking all night, all right? ROGER: Group of two
80-year-old legends. FRANK: Two 80-year-old legends.
And, I say to Bill Guarnere, I said,
"All right, you know what? I'm gonna go up,
try to take a little cat nap, get a half hour in before
we have to get to the airport." And he goes, "Okay, all right." I say,
"All right, guys, I'll see you
in about in two hours." As I walk away, I hear Bill
say in a stage whisper, that I am meant to hear... "I told you
he couldn't stay out with us." I said, "Son of a bitch." I turned around,
I said, "Two more." You know, and we sat there,
and I went right from there
onto the plane. And when they were on set,
for that visit, every single night
they were on set, after we wrapped, all the actors
went to their hotel, these are guys from 21 to 30,
you know, 33. Drank everyone under the table
every single night. And it was the same thing, I had an early call
the next morning one night. After five nights of drinking
with them, I'm leaving, and I said, "I gotta go.
I have to shoot in two hours." And Bill says, "I fought the fuckin' Germans
on no sleep." (CHUCKLING) I said, "Bartender,
another round." I called in production, I said,
"You gotta pick me up
at their hotel," and I told Captain Dye... "I've had 16 seven-and-sevens,"
I don't know what I'm gonna-- I didn't have lines
to do that day. I was just filling out
the company, and Captain Dye said,
"This is your job, is to be with them
the whole time." And that's how they were,
you couldn't outdrink 'em, you couldn't outlast them,
they never slept. At the hotel that
we had taken over in France, after like a week
of being there, like five days in, the staff
that was working the bar left. And told everyone,
"Serve yourself, I've never seen people
drink like this." They couldn't believe it. They just set up shop,
and these guys just-- And of course, Rog, they'd all stopped taking
all their medication, 'cause they couldn't
mix medication, you know, their blood pressure medication
with booze. So the guys would stop, their families
would be terrified. But they
were 20-year-olds again, hanging out in bars as soldiers. ROGER: Twenty again. FRANK:
And I gotta tell you this, they drank all night. Never once. Not once,
did I see any of 'em ever drunk. They handled their booze,
they were gentlemen. They were fun. Never sloppy. I don't know where they put it. They were just...
class acts, all of 'em. ROGER: Bill Guarnere died
in March 2014, age 90. The two of you had lived
a lot of life together. I mean, you went
to Vegas with him. You told me that he never lost. That he was the luckiest man
you ever encountered. FRANK: He had family
who had business in Vegas, and they would go out there,
he would go with them,
and he'd call me. "Hey kid, I'm in Vegas,
get out here." And I would go,
and they'd put me up in a hotel. I'm not a gambler,
but I would go with him. Rog, I swear to you,
every machine he sat at, he'd pull a handle,
he'd win. He'd have a wad of money. And he'd go, "I'm lucky, kid.
I just got good luck." Everywhere he went, he won. ROGER: He said to you,
"I got my lumps out early." FRANK: Yeah, he goes,
"Everybody's gonna
get lumps in life. I got my lumps
outta the way early." ROGER: His lumps meaning
Operation Market Garden,
his lumps, Bastogne. That was how he thought
about his life. FRANK: Yes, and losing his leg
and all those dues he paid, he kind of front-loaded
the dues in his life. He was just incredible,
he was so much fun to be with. I'd love watching him dance,
he would dance with women, and throw the crutches
around women, and just charmed everyone, and he was such a great figure
for my son and for my family. And I have to say this too,
his whole family was
so accepting of me. His son, Jean. Jean's a Vietnam vet
who served in the 101st. So, I felt I had
the family behind me, they were so kind to me. It was just the honor of my life
to play him and carry
his legacy to the screen, and to travel the world with him
for all the years afterwards. I got so many years with Bill. He was just a dear,
dear friend who I admired. Just a hero of mine. ROGER: How are you different
for knowing him? FRANK: On my better days,
I complain less. He never complained.
He didn't bitch. He took care of what needed
to be taken care of. He had a great sense of humor. He brought a level
of selflessness into my life that hadn't been there. I was selfless as a father,
and in those kind of roles. But on a grander scale
with other people, he brought that level
of selflessness. Made me aware
of this level of selflessness. The ecstasy almost,
of caring for other people
more than yourself. You could see
how it could become an addiction in a war setting. He taught me those things, he's a great example
of how to age. I'm really gonna cash in
on all the stuff. I got a great example
of what being older, going up to 90 could be like. How much virility and humor
and fearlessness you could have
in your later years. If I can be that badass
in my 60s, I'll be happy. FRANK: Let alone
in my seventies or eighties,
if I make it that long. So, that was a role model. That was a role model to have, I'm so blessed to have
that role model. ROGER: Band of Brothers
producer Erik Jendresen told us a story that was
honestly haunting to hear. He said that the two
of you were touring VA hospitals when Band of Brothers came out, which is something you did
a lot over and over and over, to speak to injured soldiers
from the Iraq war. And at one of the hospitals, you, Frank,
met a double amputee. FRANK: He had one arm
and two legs, and he said, "'Wild Bill,
you made me join the military." That was a powerful,
life-altering moment for me. 'Cause I had never realized
that it would-- I didn't wanna play any part
in having anyone go to combat
and lose their limbs. I mean we were telling
the story of Easy Company, and it never even dawned
on me at that age that we would be going to war. And that, you know, the 101st
would play it all the time. They play it at Fort Campbell,
Kentucky, the home of 101st, and that other guys would look
to it as inspiration. It was daunting to have
that weight and responsibility. Never thought they would have
those repercussions. Two things, I think,
with the Band experience
get forgotten. One, is we're
intricately tied to 9/11. We had premiered on
the 9th of September, and then the 11th happened. So, we're intricately
wound with that. The other thing is that
the whole 20 years
that happened after that all kicked off in a way
that we had no sense
of that when we were shooting. We had no idea what was coming,
as far as 9/11, and that we would be
a source of strength. I still meet firefighters today, 'cause I have another project
that deals with firefighters, and that was such a source
of strength for them. We just never thought
it could have those kind of
repercussions out in the world, or be used to have people
join the military, or... It's a complicated thing. ROGER:
Band of Brothers, it's become
a cultural phenomenon. It is so much bigger now than it was even
when it first came out. How'd you understand that? FRANK: Look, I'm always amazed
by the fanbase and the people. And I have to tell you that
the Band of Brothers fanbase
is so respectful. I've never had anyone come up
in any obnoxious way. It's done with such dignity
and respect. Rog, it's not like other gigs.
It's not like an actor gig. They don't see me,
they see Bill. And they're
being respectful to Bill. We've channeled these people. That's how it should be. I'm not surprised by it,
because we always need
these kind of stories of ordinary men
and extraordinary people
in extraordinary situations. That's never gonna run out. We're going through it now,
with the pandemic. And I will tell you this,
Bill said to me once... I had always told him... "Bill, they don't make men
like you anymore. Your generation was special, you were forged
by the Depression. They don't make men like you." And he says, "No they still do.
If anything happened today, young men, women,
they'd do the same thing today." I said,
"Bill, I think you're wrong.
I think you're out of touch." 9/11 happened. My phone rang,
while we were watching it. And he said, "See, kid.
I told you, they would. Only now they're wearing cop
and firemen and EMT uniforms. Doing the same thing we did,
running into a burning building
to save people. Told you." And it was profound,
because he had a understanding
of human nature that I did not. That when shit hits the fan... people help people, you know? And that's how they
had to help this time. It wasn't with jumpin'
out of planes. It was jumpin' out of firetrucks
and cop cars and ambulances. Going into an uncertain future. ROGER: Frank John Hughes, thank you, for honoring
the memory of the great
"Wild Bill" Guarnere. And thank you for sharing
your journey with us. FRANK: Rog, thanks
so much for having me. It's always an honor
to talk about this project and the men of Easy Company. And all my brothers,
who were so brilliant in it. ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ ROGER: Frank John Hughes,
I mean this sincerely, you just made my day. Next up, episode five,
"Crossroads." Which contains one
of the most iconic lines of this entire series. WINTERS:
We're paratroopers, Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded. ROGER: And we will have
the story behind those words, from supervising producer,
and lead writer, the man who penned "Crossroads,"
Erik Jendresen. ERIK JENDRESEN: And I will
never forget the moment when
Winters told me about that. He said, "I just remembered,
they were cuttin' the roads, and we were gonna be
surrounded any minute." He just kept laughing.
I said, "What's so funny?" He said, "Well, we're supposed
to be surrounded." I said, "Wait a minute,
wait a minute,
what did you say?" (CHUCKLING) ROGER: So make sure to subscribe to HBO's official
Band of Brothers Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. And please rate,
review and share. And a reminder,
as if you needed one, that you can watch
"Replacements," and all of Band of Brothers
on HBO Max, right now. Until next time... SPEAKER: Currahee! EASY COMPANY: Currahee!
didn't expect to start my work day sobbing but damn, that line from Babe about Muck really got me
Frank John Hughes was awesome!!
"Who the fuck does he think he is, yelling at me for killing Germans". LOL!
Also very interesting to hear Ron Livingston's anecdote about Frank, in an act of solidarity during pre-filming training camp, joining Ron in a punishment triangle push up position while a new recruit took too long to assemble his rifle -- and then a bunch of others followed suit.
Interesting to learn that Nick Sandow auditioned for the role of Babe Heffron.
Been enjoying this for a few weeks now. The Tom Hanks prologue is fascinating
I love when I spontaneously start a re-watch of a show, just to find that some big new thing has happened with it recently!
It’s crazy because these veterans have all passed in the last 20 years. The actors did such a good job that they’re forever linked with the actual veterans’ legacy. Even the actors are getting older now (not old but from early 30s to early 50s) and are themselves a great link to the veterans portrayed in this series. Podcast is a great way to revisit the series with a 2021 lense.
That was a great episode. It's so nice to hear Frank and Bill stayed such good friends. I'd say there were many rough days of shooting when the actors had been up all night drinking...