Are we indulging Putin? | Fiona Hill full interview

part of the problem that we have here is we keep indulging Russia and Putin the people around him in their narratives of [Music] History so thank you very much for coming to the interview here today um so starting quite General um why do you think many people in the west have sort of misunderstood Putin and his his uh way of thinking about the world I think there are many reasons for that honestly and part of it now is that he's been there for so long that he's almost become kind of part of the scenery for people which might sound a bit absurd but I mean think he's been in office for 23 years and at the beginning it was a mystery and people still kind of think to themselves there's a bit of mysterious uh attributes there that they probably don't understand but I mean 23 years in plain sight I mean we actually know quite a lot about him but I think that you know one of the fundamental reasons is that at the top level of governments in the United Kingdom in the United States and across Europe people change all the time so in a way we keep losing the plot at least politically so know the average person like you know you and I and others who were interested in Russia might have been following Putin you know for 20 odd years and know quite a lot about him I mean I written a book about him so yeah I've been following quite a long time but people in government come and go and you know in a way they keep kind of losing the thread and they keep coming back and reinterpreting him and he himself is something of a deliberate political ion you know he kind of changes his appearances in a way and his whole attitudes to sort of suit the person that he's meeting with I mean this is deliberate because of course he was in the KGB in the security services it's his job to dissemble it's his job to manipulate people to exploit their vulnerabilities and you know he often you know presents himself differently now I think over the last few years what people have perhaps not realized is that I don't know whether he's changed dramatically but he's evolved and hardened because after 20 three years in power power of course will corrupt power of course will change you you know he he's lost a lot of the pragmatism that he might have had early on and he started to think of himself as the indispensable figure in Russian history and he's going to shortly be one of the longest serving Russian leaders historically you know with the exception of people like Stalin yeah and you know some of uh some of the Zars and he's kind of moved into this phase of being a legend in his own lifetime of being a historical figure and he thinks about himself in that way and I think that's probably the thing that people have misunderstood the most is that he's kind of morphed into this um self-referential historical figure he has started to think of himself in these historical terms and it's kind of warped his sense of reality he's very much cut off in ways that you he probably wasn't in the past from you know even the country and the people uh that he's purporting to rule over and I say rule over because he starts to think of himself now as a zar as a kind of modern incarnation of some of his historical heroes like Peter the Great and even Catherine the Great I think the historical parallel and this historical reflection is very important there so how do you think that this this notion of Putin as someone who's placing himself amongst the greats of Russian history amongst the um the kind of Imperial rulers of old if we if we were to keep that in mind or if we Western European leaders were to keep that in mind when engaging with him in geopolitical negotiation and so you know what practically would that look like for them how how would one respond differently to him say than various leaders of the western world have already well look I mean we're all looking at the moment after the invasion of Ukraine for some kind of solution here which looks like practical pragmatic uh on you know the basis that there must be some rational basis of compromise the problem is that Putin is living in a different historical narrative from everyone else yeah and in a way we're battling for history which of course is possible yeah because everybody has their own narratives of History um there are some you know pretty basic objective facts but there's always these different interpretations of history and history looks very different from everyone's perspective and we were sitting on in in hey on why on the border between England and Wales and British hist looks very different if you're Welsh and it looks very different if you're English you know so I'm thinking about that in the Russian Empire on a vast scale and Putin is always reinterpreting the past and on his terms and in fact he's even outlawed different interpretations of different historical periods for Russia including World War II right so that makes it very difficult find a common ground and a basic understanding for negotiations and I think actually we have to push back against these narratives because in many respects we in the west and elsewhere in the world have fed this war by taking Putin's historical narratives at face value let me just say you know a word or two about this you know first of all Russia remains an Empire Imperial State it's still includes within its borders uh areas that were absorbed over centuries of expansion and you know we failed to recognize that when you had the collapse of the Soviet Union or the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 that was really the second iteration of the Russian Empire because uh the Bolsheviks uh basically had to recognize that some uh territories like Finland and Poland and the Baltic states uh had got their independence uh from from Russia After the Revolution and the Civil War but under the Soviet period fast forwarding to Stalin Stalin took a lot of this territory back again he's Rees the Baltic states we never recognize them are being Incorporated he T to take Finland back and the fins fought back in 1939 but they lost a bunch of territory and of course then after World War II Poland Hungary and a whole host of other um Eastern European countries had never been part of uh the Russian Empire uh fell under the Soviet block yeah and so um in Russia um today having been recognized as the successor state of the Soviet Union people like Putin the cohort of people around him who grew up in the Soviet Union who was steeped in Russian history tend to think that Russia has a right of to have a sphere of influence and a right of authority over all of these other states either those that were formerly part of the Russian Empire and those that were in the Soviet block after World War II and people indulge that we still say well the United States or the West is at fault for expanding NATO because we moved into Russia's sphere of influence and I would say hang on a second do we really think in the 21st century that countries should still have sever of influence the United States shouldn't have one I mean there's a view in the Russian State uh not just Putin's but widely shared that the United States is still an occupying force in Europe and it's still the Imperial force in Europe from their Viewpoint yeah now of course Europeans would think very differently the United Kingdom obviously doesn't see that the United States as sort of the Imperial power um in Europe and you know the United Kingdom has had its own throws of imperialism and post imperialism and all kinds of problems like the sez crisis 1956 you know for example so Most states have been trying to move on move away from uh the Imperial age move away from uh you know colonialism but Russia is actually still persisting in this and because we recognized Russia was the successor state to the Soviet Union and then essentially the Russian Empire we have given Russia this kind of right to make these expansive claims and that is you know part of our problem here and again you know people are always saying well of course Ukraine was part of of Russia well it wasn't you know for large periods of History you know Wales was somewhat independent you know up until you know various centuries of English expansion there's there's always a history in a different historical period to look at and so I said you know part of the problem that we have here is we keep indulging Russia and Putin the people around him in their narratives of History so be able to get to a negotiating table get to some kind of resolution we have to in a way demilitarize this history we have to push back against it because we have to move forward if we keep going back into history and making claims against other countries and other peoples and other regions I mean there really is no end to this I mean I grew up in northern England where you know the Roman Empire was so should we go back to Rome I mean they certainly predate you know a lot of other English History the Romans were there first you know kind of thing if you if you start playing this out you know so so we have to as actually say look no this is not going to work we cannot have any kind of negotiation resolution here that is basically satisfying one group's view of History so this leads to quite an interesting question about how current events are interpreted as part of a history as part of a historical narrative so one of the interesting comparisons that's been made between Putin and Donald Trump was um this idea that um how the facts actually were was like less relevant than how the presentation was was going to come across right to the extent that some people um would mention frankfurt's idea of and and say you know this is a a new era of politics an era of politics in which you know you can just fly in the face of facts but I think maybe a more subtle interpretation comes from that understanding that actually it's not just some random inter interation is it it's an interpretation that's come from a line of History A Narrative of History where the present fits into that narrative and what you think of the historical narrative is going to dictate how you take the event of today or yesterday that's right um and so if we're going to try and come to the negotiation table and we're going to as you say have to bring up the fact that one Narrative of History has been running the negotiations how do we we successfully changed that I mean what what what can we say to really bring out the question that there are other narratives that in fact you know Imperial Russia isn't the only narrative in Europe well how as a practical matter how how do we do it's going to be very difficult I mean look on on the way up to the war there were actually all kinds of different commissions including you know the Russians having them with the poles and the Germans and others you know to talk about you know their various differences and all the historical baggage I mean whether we like it or not we can't be a historical because we live with the way history it shapes us I mean just as human beings we shaped by that we have a lot of great things going on here at hey and why about how attitudes are shaped there's lot research now they even showing you know your DNA which is of course is the genetic history that we have going back to our forbears really kind of shapes sometimes even your attitudes kind of things that you're interested in which would seem kind of counterintuitive but we can't just SLO all of this off right and and the um important thing is to try to establish some kind of Baseline at least agreement that we're not going to be dictated by pe different groups interpretations of history and finding a way forward now it's going to be obviously very hard but I think that has to be a debate on a much larger scale and you know in in many respects it's going to be very hard for countries like the United States and the UK because we have an awful lot of baggage but there are you know other countries with different kind of histories that could play a role in here and could push you know forward to the negotiating table you can see for example that zilinsky himself uh president zinsky of Ukraine that is has picked up on this you know he's been traveling around all over the players talking to different uh countries with different interpretations of History different perspectives here and basically saying what Ukraine is trying to do is fight for its independence for ukrainians rights to just talk about their own future and have their own future not be dragged back into somebody's past because what Putin is trying to do is drag Ukraine back into Russia's past and making the past dictate the present and then shape the future and you know that was the whole uh premise of previous politics that we tried to cast off after World War II I mean I've made the argument in different formats that this is going to you know in a way World War I in a structural sense because it's kind of fighting again for the territorial disposition of uh Europe as we did in World War I and World War II and people's rights to Define themselves as they want to be defined I'm not trying to get into identity and culture wars here but people wanting to you know basically have their own governance and their own um you know statehood self-determination you know however we want to you know basically call that but the right for people to determine their own future not have somebody dictate it for them I mean this is all of the Deb that we're having in society at the moment so we have to find a way of finding a political Baseline here and I think that that involves more parties being brought to the table with all kinds of different perspectives and we just have to you know resist that idea that because ukrainians speak Russian or lots of ukrainians have spoken Russian they are Russian that determinism you know if we go into Wales and people are speaking English but identify themselves as Welsh why are they not Welsh you don't have to be just uh a Welsh speaker to be Welsh you your roots may go back a long time but you know your family uh have become dominantly English speaking if everyone in the world who spoke English was English it would be a very different planet that we'd all be living on you know so I think that's you know kind of part of we have to speak out about this and we have to make common cause with a larger you know kind of group of countries and peoples you know who want to emphasize sovereignty territorial integrity and the ability of people to move forward into a future that they're shaping not being you know dragged back into a past that's then determining where they can go I mean I think the the mention of bringing in other parties is really crucial here right because so the kind of narratives that are at stake and the kind of narratives that are influencing today's negotiations today's politics are postc World War European sort of and including America narratives um and even even some of the virtues which I think we still generally Hold Us important things like you know um National sovereignty self-determination the ability to talk about your own future in your own past as a country um even those are quite postc World War kind of values well post uh treat West failure exactly I mean we we're again prisoners of of the past to some degree you're saying yeah and and so but there are obviously lots of other nations who who you know weren't at the forming of NATO who weren't at the formation of these large International bodies that even yeah including the UN that play big roles in politics today and I mean some of those countries have decided that um you know non-alignment is the best way for them to interact with this issue this the the invasion of Ukraine and the more General issue about how Russia sees itself in Europe how are we I mean should we be bringing them to the table to to this discussion of history and current that how that affects current events I mean how do we interact with people who've decided look this is is you know we're not aligning I I think we should in terms of trying to find a a way out of this absolute disaster right because you know whether you know they want to be part of it or not uh the war in Ukraine and they certainly don't want to take sides you know we can list off all the kind of countries heck of a lot of them who fall into that category they are affected by it yeah I think everybody now is aware of Ukraine's incredible role in terms of feeding the world literally and you know if you look at the potential crop from Ukraine in this coming year because of what's actually happened as a result of the war itself and destruction of a you know sizable percentage of Ukraine's um arable land and we're not just talking about the Black Sea uh grain blockade for exports of grain that uh you know the Russians have imposed but we're actually looking at what's happened to you know Ukraine's uh land and then potential crop yields between 10 and 20 million people could die because of this because other parts of the world if they have a crop failure you know they can't substitute and I said between 10 and 20 so that means that you know no matter what we're going to have deaths from famine hunger uh you know malnutrition you know you name it basically because of uh Ukraine being kind of taken out of the picture to a large extent so we need to get you know Ukraine back on board as a major agricultural producer and exporter for the rest of the world there's all the other knock on effects through sanctions and everything else that's happened that's you know affecting food prices inflation you know we saw all of that obviously in the earlier parts of the world with winter and fuel prices spiking some of this is kind of evening out now but it has affected other countries and will affect some of them acutely so there is here an incentive and an interest in getting involved in somewhere to find a resolution but we have to then find a resolution that doesn't set a negative precedent and that's where this comes in for other countries that again don't want to be alive they certainly don't want to take sides they don't want to get caught in a kind of a clash between the US and China for example or the US and Russia and which is another reason for why it shouldn't be just driven by the us or for by Europe but you know they want to make sure that their own territorial integrity and Independence is not compromised by this and you're absolutely right they didn't feel like the international institutions have been working for them although there is a great deal of interest in beefing up the UN General Assembly and its various mechanisms that's where the UN grain dealers come out to you know try to get the world food program and other institutions getting grain out to the places that it's needed but there is an interest in trying to find you know a resolution that sets a healthy precedent for the future and reduces the that other countries that are vulnerable to larger neighbors especially those that might be nuclear powers are not going to be compromised in somewhere by this but so that's the tricky thing so what are the mechanisms and you know I've obviously been thinking about this as well if we see the UN grain deal that was an important in a role that the UN could play there are other mechanisms for example the Russians have been absolutely devastating in their approach to civilian nuclear power not just threatening nuclear armor again with tactical intermediate r nuclear weapons but actually holding nuclear power stations hostage and shelling them going through the Chernobyl exclusion Zone zapara the largest nuclear plant in Europe every day being at uh being held at risk by Russian military activity and we've seen the UN intervene there as well the international atomic energy agency you know we've seen the international court of justice and the international criminal court and others play different roles but a lot of countries supportive of those kinds of roles of the UN because they want to see more attention to their concerns as well and if that could come out of the war with Ukraine more attention to climate change Regional and you know Economic Development debt relief mechanisms that would protect you know them from predation military and political then I think you know countries would sign up for some kind of effort but if it's again going to be the great powers like in World War I and World War II just sitting about in you know various places behind conference tables signing away you know the future of Europe or you know the world future that's not what most countries want to see and you seeing that reflect at the elite level and also at the popular level so we've got to think long and hard about how you bring in countries that would otherwise not want to be aligned in particular blocks that's fascinating thank you so obviously you've been privy to some of the characters that we see on the news you've spoken to world leaders you've you you've seen how these people think sometimes firsthand um yeah what what are some of the most valuable lessons that you've personally gained from those interactions well I mean sometimes they're very cautionary TS because you know you really kind of see the limits um many of our leaders you know today I mean I've seen some pretty inspirational you know people as well at firsthand but you know there's only so much one individual can do and I think you know the biggest risks that we have in today's politics is the personalization of politics right and we see the strongman phenomenon you know on every Frontier I mean lots of books being you know written about this you know for example and it's it's a feature of our time time because you know when you have a time of Rapid change people really can't keep up and they're kind of looking for some mechanism say stop the world I want to get off or stop the world I don't want it to change anymore and it's very easy for individuals to um uh come forward in that regard and present themselves as Champions you know the populist leader but you know they're very limited and so I mean the things that I've learned the most is just this importance of having checks and balances in system and also to be honest the the power of people power I mean we've we've all got ourselves to you know be instead of follow was be more uh active um and you know think about actions that we can take and you know what are the best leaders are those who actually listen to other people and really take their advice on board but we also have to again understand the limitations of the political systems that we're in people are always blaming you know the US for this or you know the UK for that and you know our systems themselves are quite Limited in the information that gets brought forward I mean it's extraordinary important to try to find you know again mechanisms of openness so that information comes in because you're only as good as the things that you know and you know the advice that you can uh you can take on board and you know and I've again I've learned you know how important it is to have good analysis to have objective analysis you know to basically bring that forward so to help people uh make decisions but there is also then you know the importance of speaking out when things take you know pretty a pretty negative turn yeah but you know this is a moment where all of our politics you know kind of across the world are really jeopardized by this kind of idea that strong men populist politicians can really resolve things and really really what we we do need is more kind of Grassroots action and figuring out other ways of giving people you know Stakes uh stakes in the system and I mean i' I've taken all that away from you know being on the inside and seeing really the limitations right but I've also seen you know how much things can be done by small numbers of dedicated people you know have a shared sense of mission and responsibility so I would also you know kind of um make an appeal for you know thinking more positively about public service and Civil Service of you know all kinds of uh a different uh different levels because again you know governance is only as good as the people who get involved in it brilliant well F thank you very [Music] much

Channel: The Institute of Art and Ideas

Views: 146,412

Keywords: learning, education, debate, lecture, IAItv, institute of art and ideas, IAI, philosophy, Fiona Hill, Foina Hill, Russia, Ukraine, Ukkraine, Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russia Ukraine war, conflict, Putin, Vladimir Putin, Vladmir Putin, Mr Putin, Kremlin, KGB, Fiona Hill Mr. Putin, strong men, USA, US, United States, UN, UN general assembly, UN GA, Trump, history, politics, elections, Russian history, Russia-US relations, Europe, who will win the war in Ukraine?, putin vs the west, the West, peace

Id: pJ7DWLWAsGM

Length: 22min 23sec (1343 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 06 2024