APOSTOLIC CLINIC - APOSTOLIC COUNSEL ON EMERGING ISSUES with Pastor T Mwangi

[Music] elevate tv advancing kingdom lifestyle [Music] [Music] [Music] praise the lord and welcome to this amazing evening as we engage in the apostolic clinic my name is pastor t mwangi and we bless the lord for the opportunity to be live on elevate tv and on this platform to share the gospel and so today we have two matters at hand that we want to just uh see and hear the views and one of the matters is a meeting that took place on the 1st of september and this was a gathering of the gatekeepers and also the fathers in the city of neri and of course the matter was to address the apostasy happening in the church whereby the elders and the leaders felt like the church was going back to the old traditions and so we want to see maybe where did we lose it and the second conversation possibly are going to have is a statement that has been on our social media and this is a statement made by a bishop that is well known uh leader of the ack church about the church and politics of course this is the voice of the church and we want to understand what is the direction even as we get to this heated time of the debate this is the apostolic clinic where we dissect matters as we auto and with me is apostle david juma thank you sir and welcome we've not done this for a while now couple of weeks yes it's a blessing to be back it's a blessing and there are heavier matters on the team we have so much assignment a very man yeah and also on the other side we have bishop malilee thank you pastor tim i really appreciate i'm happy i mean i said today and i can't wait to delve into these very important issues that we bring now amen yes amen so let's begin with the apostle bishop we've been with you for a while and this of course was considered as an apostolic operation yeah when i looked at it and compared it with what the scripture says when there was the commotion of the gentiles are getting born again there was the jerusalem council right before we even get to the meeting um where where did we go wrong where did we go wrong how comes that now the very people that embrace the the cross are now going back uh to the to the traditions where did we miss the steps i think uh early couple like maybe 50 years ago at independence slightly before and after the christians and especially the leaders were very firm on the gospel truth and when they were confronted with the urge to go into tradition they refused some were persecuted and they said no we believe in jesus on the cross and we cannot go back to you know doing worship and pouring beer on the ground to the ancestors and all those kind of idolatry as it were and then the gospel was very very you know sharp the stand was clear what has happened in the reason is the gospel has been watered down most frontline runners are not preaching the gospel the way it's supposed to have been we've entered in the last couple of years into a lot of religious activities and that's why the church has been losing power losing relevance and so if we can go to the church and pray probably can go under that tree and pray and that mountain to pray unfortunately and so that's where the rain began beating us when you don't keep the pure doctrine of the gospel of christ at the center of church activity then other things will come to compete and that's really what happened okay bishop this is a problem that you find actually that has affected the church ever since its inception and especially during the times of apostle paul if you write if you read a lot of his epistles and particularly galatians he challenged believers because they were kind of getting drawn back to some practices somewhere pagan others were judeo you know sort of oriented so that they want to still bring in some elements of the horse culture and begin to put them in and and i i think this problem is not just in mount kenya it's only that probably mount kenya people have become more bold and but everywhere in this country you can basically pick aspects of synchronizing virtually every tribe in this country where they want to borrow a few you know traditional matters and put them in the ba in the gospel and want to you know go along with them there's been um an attempt to absorb um our african kind of what we call culture and see how it can be merged with a christian culture and i believe a lot even theologically you find um theologians writing a lot on on african culture and the inception we've seen these in catholicism which of course that's a different denomination whereby they've tried a lot to to really seek relevance in communities where they minister by incorporation of tradition it is a fact not everything in our tradition is wrong of course so how far should we go because uh as bishop has said it's not among kenya issue no it's only that uh there was a response i know a lot has been happening even evangelism in the mount kenya there's been conversion i was even told of a story where they are now telling people you must vomit the child of mary they put it in kikuyu yeah and and it's a very serious term but we know culturally in kenya culture is very strong so where do we draw the line where do we say when these and these and this begins to happen we are off the road of christianity and these are not i agree with you that there are certain things which are good for instance the respect for elders you know it's important for africans to respect their elders and even the scriptures the bible say obey those who rule over you and those elders that are over you in the lord so both in the bible and in culture uh in different communities you find out to be true however for a christian there are certain bottom lines for instance within this community in mount kenya they say that jesus christ is a white man's religion he's not the son of god his son or mary forget about him christianity is a white man religion is nothing to do with our community now the bottom lines are what do you do with jesus what do you believe secondly is a way of salvation for humankind because we're all born sinners and we have things to deal with with our creator and the other thing is do you worship the creator or do you worship what he created and then what is your mode of worship what do you bow to what do you sacrifice to how do you do that the scriptures are very clear for instance when you look at the book of hebrews just like the galatians who are trying to go back to judaism after conversion the writer to the hebrews is telling them in chapter three jesus is a apostle and is a high priest in other words the caiaphas high priesthood and that goes down to aaronic principle was started by god in the first place but god has decided to give us a new covenant and so that season is over now jesus has taken over he is now the way the truth and the life he's the doorway to the heavens i mean to god he cannot go to the father unless through him so there are certain uh basic statements of faith that a christian must embrace and not lose regardless of which culture he is in that is god is our father his name is father son holy spirit jesus christ the son of god and the savior who actually went to the cross shared his blood that blood was uncontaminated the virgin bird of christ demonstrated that where it was the father's dna mary just carried in her womb but the blood of jesus had no joseph contamination or adam so his blood is superior in terms of cleansing sin delivering humanity and so forth and and so these are bottom lines when it comes to the work of the holy spirit god dwelling in man guiding us and every day that the word of god the scriptures as written both the old testament the new testament the scriptures given to us are the ultimate word of god and it's ignorant it has final authority now there's a little challenge where in that community in the mountain they are saying well even the hebrews they sacrifice these animals and so forth that's what we are doing like them and it's in the old testament that they sacrificed bulls goats animals you know all these even some birds and so forth but then god changed his mind god changed the plan he said all these were pointing to christ as soon as christ came no more need for the sheep and the goat blood and so why do you want to stick where he used to be whereas he has said now jesus in isaiah 53 is the lamb of god that takes away the sin of the whole world i remember one time we were praying for a certain family he needed a miracle he needed a baby they needed healing and then on my knees praying and i see so the bible opened up in isaiah 53 and the voice of the holy spirit say the father said look what i've done for you through my son these are the fundamentals so these isaiah 53 how he was wounded trans transgression you know by stripes we are here you know the just that man or peace was upon him what happened on the cross when jesus went to the cross like a lamb he opened up his mouth before the shearers and then he died john the baptist is introducing behold the lamb of god that takes away the sin of the whole world so what jesus did on the cross replaced all those thousands of sacrifices over thousands of years past and now everything in the old testament summarized into jesus as soon as you remove christ you have no christianity and that's the challenge we have with the doctrine in the mountain because they're rejecting christ and rejecting the whole way of life of christianity and so forth and take us back to other ways of worship jesus is the one now who is the doorway to the father so these are the fundamentals uh bishop and and the first thing is that we've we've had a lot of you know i listened to some of these elders christian criticizing christianity and they will talk about the way the west church is permitting gay marriages and um you know the dress code you know very very simple what i might call ethical things yes and they will also look at their prosperity preaching and say you know all these churches are there to enrich and enrich an individual and finally there is the common argument that the white man came with the bible to take our title deed which if we analyze from a local perspective especially where i passed up the biggest chunk of land belonged to the church and these were estates that were taken from people how do you respond because i believe there is the reality of colonial colonization this is the reality of colonization and missionary there's a whole journal that was written by it was a master's thesis on what he called the crude methods of evangelism the introduction of chicken pox and making sure that we heal you in our diseases you know some of these things are in archives disposal and they are used by these people to attack the faith what will be your response my response is that you see the gospel remains a gospel irrespective of how people treat it because we must understand that the gospel is entrusted to fallen human beings and clearly even the owner of the gospel himself including the apostles that he left those days warned that there will come other you know apostles and teachers that will undermine the truth of the gospel so the reference point for understanding the gospel is not from the practice of those we see you know living it of course it's very powerful when we leave the gospel it's supposed to be but the reality is that human beings are frail they're weak and they'll be moments that they will misrepresent the gospel as it's supposed to be and that's why we have scriptures and i'm so grateful that apostle david mentioned scriptures we must go back to scripture not to musum or white settler or who becomes like the benchmark of our faith it is like saying just because a christian is not leaving the christian faith then it's fake you know and so you go back to scripture then the bible says looking unto jesus the author and the finisher of our faith so jesus is the one who authored our going to finish it we will appreciate a good example but in the absence of it we are not left without a benchmark we have the scripture and so we must go back to scripture and ask ourselves what is the true gospel of our lord jesus christ irrespective of who brings it or what they do and so i think a lot of these arguments are used because they are cheap shots and they attack the underbelly of christianity just like any other faith even when you look at the african traditionalism that we are trying to run into it has a lot of underbellies we can also shoot that but you see because if somebody wants to achieve an agenda they will look for the easiest and the softest target to hit but the reality is that the gospel is true the gospel is real it is not a white man's you know uh thing because you will be you will be interested to know that the real christian missionaries who came their interest was probably not even land and what happened is that once lands opened up then the businessmen and the landlords and the other fellows took advantage of the missionaries who trailblazed coming to preach the gospel and did what they did otherwise the lives of david livingstone why would you kill yourself with malaria pushing into you know the hinterland knowing that you would have just settled in a nice quiet clean environment and just enjoy your life and so i think it's a cheap attempt to you know to undermine the gospel but my position is the gospel remain the gospel and its authenticity must be maintained by what scripture itself says and we must go by scripture not by what we see and the example because the example can be wrong can fail and that's why you know the bible was written god allowed the bible to be written so that then when we have to compare the practice of the gospel with the gospel itself then the gospel which is written remains like the straight stick which must be compared with the crooked stick of what is not being done and so we can't go by the crooked stick we must come to the written gospel and i think that's what we need to insist that this is what the bible says we go by that and it's just like saying just because i preached the bible if if i error and i fail then the gospel is is useless it's like saying just because a policeman has been caught breaking the law then the law is useless i was saying because a patient was taken to a hospital and they died in the hospital then medicine is fake you know that's a very cheap argument and someone who is reasonable would not really want to argue that unless they just want to win the argument for the sake of winning wow so thank you very much if you're joining us we're having a candid conversation and um these are conversations the the fathers gathered in neary on the 1st of september and of course it was a prayer meeting and these enter the gatekeepers and of course we're living in a time whereby we are seeing traditions coming back even to the church and people are very comfortable and so we are trying to have this conversation because i also know there's a new generation coming in and and if and if nothing is done or this council is not delivered we might end up building in the wrong a particular foundation so opposed to you in this meeting physically not spiritually and i heard the prayers you know led by bishop mark and this was not ordinary prayer you know these were very powerful prayers my friend yes the spiritual leaders in yeri yeah the bishops actually we asked the bishops in neri now that that used to be the provisional quarters of the central kenya they have a spiritual responsibility because of that jurisdiction because of sphere of influence and they mobilized fathers and leaders because acts 15 when the early church was in trouble apostles and elders gathered and they considered the matter of circumcision and it was a matter of tradition the gentiles they don't have the law of moses they have their own way of living blah blah and so forth so the gospel is better treating the gentiles the gospel is penetrating the jews so how do we marry the two and they had that jerusalem council so it was a council like to deal and respond to the challenge what are some of the matters that you are responding to possibly some people may not have had the opportunity to read the the prayer points yeah and the newsletter that was really actually there was a press statement released yes and this statement said that it should be ready in all the churches what i can do is give a quick summary what happened was these spiritual leaders actually were drawn from 11 counties like nyandarwa nakuru and nairobi uh and the issue were that they were identifying for instance that there is this idea of reverting to african traditional worship and some of the key emphasis and doctrines were like number one rejection of the bible as god's written word to all so we were confronting that because telling we were telling people hey how can you reject the bible as a written word number two rejection of jesus christ as the son of god through whom all men must believe to know god and be saved they are rejecting that so we needed to respond rejection of god and the introduction of idolatry through the worship of other gods and then resuscitation of the archaic practices of female genital mutilation because some women are being circumcised even after years and a rejection of the church altar and the elevation of other ungodly altars but the leaders also said we recognize that the values of our communities which include respect for elders centrality of the family and the care for the weak and vulnerable members of our communities is acceptable across the board in our cultures and the christians have no problem with that and the positive role of christian missionaries like we have just said that they played in our communities you know and brought a lot of help and of course the leader said unless we wake up and actually reunite with god uh we start to lose within those regions uh all the gains made you know over the years when you look at central kenya most of the people embraced the word of god and there was a lot of blessing that accrued and so we were calling the church to wake up and declared that a church i mean christianity is not a white man's religion and jesus christ is the messiah and the savior of the world and that the bible is the word of god and that christians reject now we made a call christians are rejecting idolatry and are looking back to god for blessings and that we should desist from worshiping the creatures at the expense of the creator i liked one man who said this mountain is intimidating us because he's older than us but our god is ancient of days he's older than the mountain amen and him we worship and so there was such a powerful prayer and declaration and freeing our community from those kind of practices and the call because we know it's a spiritual battle by the way it's not a battle of wheat and who can speak better english who can explain facts who has historic facts we know is a spiritual battle because there are spirits involved and so forth and spiritual leaders needed to do spiritual transactions so that was a spiritual apostolic truth it was a spiritual apostolic transaction and actually we gonna go into all those counties every couple of months to actually mobilize all church leaders because these are also leaders in the community you know there was uh there was an inclination within our constitution and the bbi effort well that's another story where the elders in the communities were getting more recognized than even church elders and church leaders and i think spiritual leaders are saying no you cannot ignore anymore the role of spiritual leaders irrespective of the challenges there has been and the the mess like bishop has explained if one person is in trouble it doesn't mean the whole christian is in trouble but also in their own sex there are people who are in trouble also absolutely and trump is everywhere but even then the word of god remains and in history there has been attempts to be devil the scriptures and belittle the work of god everywhere but how many people know that god's word always prevails it's a matter of time we are trying to tell the next generation don't be afraid jesus is still lord he is still ready to forgive you and save you and give you a life and that you will still live in the community with respect and honor and be able to prosper and do what you must do remembering that god is the center of it all right as it were amen bishop what is this that people saw and abandoned their idols you know i read in the book of acts when people brought their magic books and all that because it's it's funny to me that we we just our generation is not as cultured as your generation was so it would have been very difficult to preach in your generation yes about what i might call a new god versus what do i believe in yes but we see that there was such a shift in your time yeah and now we are seeing a tangent what is it that your generation saw that maybe it could be your cry that i wish this generation will see i'll tell you well it's difficult to answer that question because there could be very many very you know uh variables that have come into play but one of the things i know from scripture is that the bible says that the god of this age usually will blind the eyes of the unbelievers so that they cannot receive the light of the gospel and for me that's the bottom line so the issue the question probably would be what is this that the enemy is using to blind the eyes of the people and it's all the same the devil is the same probably what he does he uses different methods and i think where we are helped is in our time the people who received the gospel they received it with all their heart and they there were no many destructions the the gospel didn't have a lot of philosophy and positive thinking and a lot of feel good stuff that has come in the name of the gospel so a lot of the power of the gospel has been you know removed because of adding a lot of human philosophies the things that apostle paul many times confronted during his day that's one the other one is of course i think there has been a departure of the reliance on the holy spirit you find that it's like the church for some reason have gone silent in terms of you know who the holy spirit is and what he does and how he can be allowed space so that many ministers are no longer preaching the authentic gospel in its power i would answer that question that simply for me that's where the departure point has come the holy spirit and the power power of the holy spirit because even the bible says that there is no conviction of sin unless the holy spirit is there in fact if i may add quickly when paul went to the salonika exactly what bishop was saying first thessalonians chapter 1 and verse uh 8 9 10 when the gospel came to you say in much assurance about the holy spirit you turned from idols to god and from the power of satan to god so when the gospel is presented like you say people will turn they will know that jesus is here i've heard the message uh the scripture is very clear according to what has been preached that he's able to forgive me deliver me give me a new beginning a new way of life and free me from all these nightmares and confusions and whatever and come into my heart and have a relationship with the creator and it would happen yes and people begin a journey and as they study the bible they are discipled they keep on growing and later they even become ministers as a power to change our lives amen and pass the team go anywhere if you find a church where the minister and the congregation is open to the power of the holy spirit and they have not fallen victim of the current feel good stuff that is being tossed around in the name of the you know the word of god you will see conversions people getting saved you just preach a simple word you talk about jesus his power is blood then you you you just ask anyone who needs to receive jesus christ as lord and savior you just hear another whole mature grown up lift the hand and they just come forward to be led into prayer but what has happened is very very sadly uh we have really left the authentic word of god and really baptized it with a lot of things that people want to hear because we are coming into days where apostle paul in the book of in the fastimage says that people will be helping teach us they want to just hear what they want to hear and so when you preach something that is really not very exciting because the gospel is very basic you know what is exciting about the blood of jesus unless you have a revelation about what that blood is what is exciting about being crucified in the flesh you know being crucified in the flesh and and and putting on the new man in in in putting off you know evil speaking and malice and anger you know that is that stuff few people want to sit in a service and listen to the yet that's what the apostle is spending in the in the episodes and that's what consists of practical christian living that we need to be giving people so until people are ready to appreciate that the gospel does not need any additives to make it more palatable than it is we are not ready to see conversions and the more we move away from the real gospel that was handed down to us by the apostles the worse it's going to get and the more confusion you begin to see where you find a lot of people happy good people in church you know to hear they know the christian lingua the pentecostal tradition but they are completely empty they are not born again i was shocked to watch a certain video clip the other day a man was sharing how he really went to problems with his new wife and the lady was not you know behaving like a wife and she was just wild and crazy and then this lady says at some point she realized she was not saved and yet they had been in charge for so long the pastors were preaching and then she just realized she was really never saved so she got saved and now she's a good wife and good mother and you're thinking how are we going to explain that situation where someone is in church for five six seven years and they've never known that they need to get born again wow it's it's sad so listen so the bottom line is as paul said woe unto me if i don't preach the gospel right and it's the same paul who wrote and said the gospel has the power to save so once we preach it we don't need to help it the gospel will do his work so thank you for joining us we are still having this conversation we're gonna take a short break and we'll be right back after the break [Music] [Music] [Music] me [Music] [Music] there is no town there is no city there is no nation without fathers they went before us and set the stage of what we see in the gospel today it's immediately when i got saved the lord blessed in my heart passion for souls they fought the battles and prepared the way they were told these miracle workers here from kenya he has trouble so many churches in kenya troubled be careful others said he's a false prophet but the sikh did not listen to that they needed it what did they do that we are not doing no were you watching anyone say an idea we believed the word of god that it is true are you watching yourself i believe the word of god that by his stripes i was healed do not fear for you will not be ashamed the gospel them and the gospel now god says do not be dismayed we didn't have the technical gospels that you have today if you believe by your head raise your hand come forward no no no people just stood up and began to repent by themselves wow others crying on the floor saying save me save me save me oh jesus dressing the mantles [Music] [Music] welcome back and thank you for joining us this is the apostolic clinic of course we are having a candid conversation on matters affecting the body of christ giving wisdom insight and direction grounded and based on the scripture so we were just discussing about the concept of what happened on the 1st of september when the fathers went to mount kenya and there was a ruling and a verdict made and of course apostle juma summarized and said we're going back we have to accept the bible is the word of god and there is no alternative we have to accept that jesus is the son of god and there is no other way of salvation other than through christ jesus and we have to accept that indeed our traditions some of the values are not bad but there is a level it reaches and it becomes spiritual so we must embrace and just adopt that which is value-based but anything that is spiritual based we have to reject and it's an amazing thing and so there is a plan to go to the different counties and i believe this should be a national wide kind of crusade because it's not just the mountain i think the mountain came out public but you go to western you go to eastern all these other counties i believe something has to happen and i believe these are some of the sparks of revival somebody wrote and said when idolatry checks in immorality is automatic and so right now we want to check on a conversation that has been happening uh during the week a lot of reaction and many things we have also seen the church is becoming now the battleground for political expediency and the church is no longer identified as a place of worship and from [Music] this is also a senior leader in the body of christ and this is bishop olessa pete leading one of the biggest congregations and he said you know no rallies in his church and no politician is permitted to speak and he made that statement he's a mana honor and he's an authority that we honor even in the body of christ and i believe where he sits he's well advised and he could not just utter those words out of emotion there must be a background and so i just want to hear the voice and the additions of what apostle and bishop have to say we're getting into a political tie will not run away yeah we know the church is a natural mobilizer you know you have your thousand members uh you have your 2000 members and politics is about numbers and you know people will be there uh just wisdom you know uh bishop represents a congregation you are also representatives of different congregation what is that wisdom that the church ought to operate with especially in this time and in this season politics is about numbers but the church is not about numbers the church is about worship and prayer so anyway we are in a very interesting time this has been there before in the gospel of matthew i think it's chapter um i think 21 or chapter 12. um jesus picks a weep goes into the temple he finds money changes he finds people doing all kinds of business there other than the core business he turns out the tables i mean turns upside down the tables throws these people out and he says my house shall be called the house of prayer for all nations like in isaiah 56 7. so first of all let's put the bottom lines we come to the house of god to pray which is to worship which includes hearing god's world whatever the man of god is carrying for that day let's hear the voice of god that's the first reason why we come to the church and even the politicians who are members of our churches when they come to the house of god they also human beings they have a spirit they need to hear the message they need to pray they need to cry they need to sing they need to sit and hear them what the lord has to say you know in the old testament the kings listen to what the prophet said and what the priests say we seem to be inviting that the priests and the prophets are hearing what the kings are saying i think it needs to go back to original what was supposed to be but on the aspect of the politicians speaking from the pulpit i think for me it needs to be adjusted and i agree with the occupation actually the occupation by the anglican church agree with him let's change how we are treating the altar how we are handling the pulpit i imagine in the apostolic house from where i put the bible sweat and preach and teach the word of god then somebody else comes there maybe he's he had a a hangover of having drunk yesterday and he's coming to give speech from the same place i my conscience can't allow that he need i'm probably using the same mic i'm using to preach there seem to be a mix which i don't appreciate and so for me i would say when they come to church instead of coming to talk to the church they should come to be talked to by the lord and by the man of god in fact they should even go to the first tree into the boardroom after the service and ask the man of god what would you advise us as a politician what does god say and then they are ministered to there then now when they leave and maybe outside the the building where they the the the kenyans are you can greet them and if you want to talk to them you can but i think we need to remove them from their ultra as it were in my view because in the congregation we have different persuasions different tribes different political parties membership different inclinations you know people are following different so when we bring one unless we we say we have a month when all politicians or church as we have arranged for all politicians to come to us but it must be in an open place and they can talk to us okay bishop yes um someone did an analysis i follow politics a lot and i said in this particular whatever bishop said is amazing you know it's the voice of the church um but i'm not very sure whether it was the right time because in this context and i just need to hear your wisdom they can quote you as bishop malini in this context we had one divide of the political side which is considered perceptionally there is no fact about it it's considered not to be very much church oriented and then there's this side of the political divide which is considered to be church favorite the donations and the services and the preaching and the prayer and the statement was made in the presence of this divide that is perceived by kenyans not to be very much spiritually uh or or church centered maybe in such a case what what will be what do you get out of that and what would be analysis because already it looks like there's a divide that is church and it's a post church and this is it that possession is already there yeah um to start with i think it would be very difficult for us to judge the motive with which the bishops spoke because we cannot we are not allowed to do that yeah i mean he knows why he did that in his arguments he has them and so if we go by the arguments then like apostle david i agree with him because the reason why people go to the house of god is simply to worship and worship has many aspects worship as prayer it is singing it is listening to the word it is giving you know offerings and whatever other ordinances that go on in a worship service that is the reason why people troop to houses of worship on sunday and any other day that people gather and my understanding of the house of god is that the moment we enter through any gate into the house of god we are all reduced to the same level by the gospel of our lord jesus christ where there's no jew there's no greek there's no female there's no city and there's no men there's no politician there's no intellectual there is no policeman there is no intelligence officer because we are all been born again by the same blood baptizing the same body he drank the same spirit died the same day you understand so my my whole understanding of church has always been that when we enter into the house of god irrespective of who we are the brother was educated the brother was an educated the brother was as a job the brother who has no job we all come under the same grace the same anointing the same favor the same power so when we begin to allow class and not just politicians even within the same congregation if we begin to look like we are actually preferring certain people are noticing them more than others we already get into trouble so even before the politician walks in the church itself could be running into the same problem just that we are not playing from the political side we probably might be giving more preference to maybe a ceo of a company worships in that church or a senior government officer or a brother who is running a multi-million business so we kind of treat him especially and they are allowed certain privileges that nobody else is allowed the moment we get to do that then when the politician comes in we are and we start complaining we are actually just making a fool of ourselves my understanding is that the spirit of the house of god should be that when we come here we are all the same what we are coming here to do is to worship and my challenge to any politician who is very excited about going to churches the first question i ask them is who is your local church minister because it is expected then there is a place you go to worship every sunday so how come then you have all this time you can be in every everywhere in this whole country this sunday in this church next sunday in this church the other when are you in your local church where god has localized you because i believe god understands we are local human beings god does not expect you to be in a church in new york and then the next day in argentina there is a place where god localizes you because god understands we are local and i keep telling people god is so merciful that the basic means of transport he gave us his two legs to limit your movement these are movements but what is given by default when you get born you are born with two feet localized meaning you are localized individual so when you exert yourself to move out you must work very hard to be able to move out of your local environment that could i mean maybe that's a philosophy people may not agree with but for me that's the truth so so anyway so that i don't believe at this my point is i believe when people walk into the house of god they shouldn't come there with an agenda either to politic or to even do business or even to come and market something because the moment we do that then we are basically doing what apostle david alluded to we are creating a scenario in the temple where business is going on and prayer has been replaced with either business or even politics and the moment we do that then it just becomes a house of robbers and thieves as jesus said and those are people to be driven out so for me for that reason then when people walk into a church they need to sit worship and get out that to me is the bottom line i remember samia's back there used to be a senior politician who used to the wife was in our church and he would come to that service and i would preach and probably i sometimes i wouldn't even recognize that he's in the service because i would i kept asking myself why should i recognize him and he's coming here to worship and so if i recognize him then i need to recognize every member who came to worship in that church that sunday of course after some time i think he realized i wasn't probably worshiping him and paying a lot of attention to him and he left and i think his wife also left our church actually two politicians one was both were elected mps one was formerly a minister in one of the governments of the land so so so so that i don't believe by this apostle david said something powerful he said in our churches people of different political persuasions and these politicians represent a particular interest but it's an interest so the moment you allow one of that politician to speak you violate people who don't believe in that person so if these people must speak bare minimum i believe then they should be allowed to set up a microphone outside so that we give permission to members of our church who do not buy into that persuasion to walk away but when you allow them to be a captive audience for someone who they have no way of saying i i don't agree with your policies and you are your economic models then we torture members and and this is where division in the church comes in and just to speak it is not possible for a local church to have a common political stand except a neutral word because we are different persuasions so let it not don't be cheated let nobody tell you that a church can stand up and say we are going to support this particular poli brand of politics the best we can do to say we are non-political we are non-partisan we are known whatever known allied known everything known that's the only thing you can do otherwise it is very difficult because you can denounce my political ideology but i believe in it and you are speaking for me and you didn't consort me even if you are the bishop so so it's a very murky situation there's only one exception one exemption is a roman starting about those in authority those in authority is a government of the day and when the leader of a country like head of state comes in he doesn't just come in as a politician he's coming in as a head of state for all the people who are there so it is important to do the the honorable thing give honor to whom honor is due and the pastor can be able to recognize and say today we are privileged that the head of state is in the service and that's the head of state for everybody including his deputy you know because that's a head of uh government of the day remembering in five years or ten years that same person can come back but this time he can come back when he's not head of state and that time he may not even have that probably mentioned because he's a retired officer as they were other than you know depending on the relationships that be with the past but when it comes to campaigning making statements uh castigating others abusing others the church is a no-go zone and for me i would leave the the first day in the church the privilege to determine how he would want that head of state and you know head of government to to greet as it were and he should give him instructions say hello to the citizens not give a speech tell us your development records and so for that for another forum and because by the way head of state and at that level these people understand and appreciate protocol they actually understand the appreciative protocol when you come to an institution called the church they know the pastor's authority and he can recognize and say your excellencies today you're not going to speak you know as it were and many times by the way even before they come they send information that swanson is coming so those things can be and let me tell you uh i believe our head of state and so forth respects the church and respects institutions and protocols but what we need to do is give a general direction especially in times of coming to elections next year politicians have a rush into where they have a free crowd called church now that spiritual leaders must give guidance someone will come and ask um with the same breath we say they should not give a speech but with the same breath the shimmer syndrome we have a charged project you need money and you're the guest of honor we're in kenya we know how the guest of honor operates is the main man with the main thing and the main good is you know and so we also think majority don't come for just church service there is a project and they will encourage you to mobilize the population and they will come in the authority as a leader and then gain your moisture mira thing um what will be your advice on the same there's been a lot of communication and conversation i'll give you an example yes of a true story without mentioning names where politicians showed up in the church service they said we have heard you guys have a project there wasn't an official countries and the politicians collected some money and they gave some amount of money and while they were speaking uh because the bishop said only the local npc should say something who ended up introducing somebody else to say something because he thought it was mostlier than him and the gentleman said me i don't worship your god and this in the church so when the man was given the bishop said it can't build the church of god the money was taken to a department for helping the orphans that is run by the church and that money was given to the orphans not to build the church of god that is leadership uh yes churches have need to do fundraising in there but i think there are various opinions on this personally if we are doing fundraising uh that's a specific project as it were if somebody wants to give give without necessarily coming to say i have given this x number of money so has given this kind of money because we bring the class wars again because a brother who can only afford 500 chileans because he's jobless and his leader done well to save his his buddha buddha money he will feel intimidated by the person who is coming to give more where god's name is honor and respect to all men should be practiced and therefore we should adjust how those fundraisings are done let it be give because you have come to worship god and to honor what god's project is all about without necessarily glorifying the amounts and the people and so forth let's be done decently and in order so that we know we don't end up doing the project but we are breaking the other scriptures or bringing class wars bishop someone is planning on a fundraiser because we can't run away from this reality i i sat in a meeting and these were young people organizing to raise money for their youth department and they already had a leader in mind and they were told that he's busy but he's checking his calendar and the leader is known he's very generous with church donations let's not talk about those that have already happened now let's give solution going forward uh what would be this advice to anybody having possibly a project what are some of the biblical principles and wisdoms because we know politics will come and go and the work of god must continue whether we have well-blessed politicians or not that work has to continue so the first thing for me pastor t and apostle david that must happen is we must understand that the work we are doing is we are doing unto god and every giving whether it is undertaking a fiscal project here on earth it is being done in the name of the lord and so that must be done in honor of the owner of the work and when we look at the old testament god was very particular about how he received offerings right from the time of building the tabernacle of moses he says moses go and collect my offering from anyone who is willing willing and several you find in the giving and building he kept saying you know those whose hearts are stirred up start up what is starting them up it's not you know it's not their own interest to give so that which starts up they are giving it should be desire to do what god wants done i know it is very difficult for us to judge motives why people give but then another question is why does giving become important when we begin to talk about you know elective politics why can't people then give you know without having to attach this to something so ministers must come to a place whereby we need to trust god to use his own people where possible to do the work that he called them to do because i believe god is capable of you know releasing grace to his own people and to make them do what they need to do unless we are the ones doing things that god has not ordered us to do and so that we don't get desperate because the moment politicians realize we are desperate then they are going to really just you know overwhelm us and that's what is happening right now because politicians know that pastors don't mind money there's a friend of my wife a politician a senior politician and we met in a function and you know he said something that hurt me he said you know when we hear pastors the next thing we think about is money for roofing the church and you know i didn't like the comment that man made because already that tells you where we've been placed and so we have to redeem ourselves and come to the place where we understand that god has called his people and he knows that his people of the capacity and the capability to do what he has done so when people come in and try to use their financial mass to impress us and to create a name for themselves we can receive the money but the question is has god received because you know god kept saying you know collect my offering from anyone with a willing heart god has something i like calling a willing omitter he measures a willingness of the heart and a pastor can receive a huge you know offering from all or gifts from a politician but it ends in his hands it never is counted in the accounts of god and that's what we must teach people that is not so much about how much we are receiving it is the attitude and the heart that is giving and the conviction that is coming along with what is given and i go back to what i said earlier if truly a politician is a christian and loves the lord the first thing i want to be told is where is his local church who is the local pastor and do they faithfully tithe and give there so that we stop these whole games of someone or people being you know beginning to behave like you know they love the whole church so they can give virtually to every if we really love the church there's a church in afghanistan in pakistan how much offering that we're selling that if we didn't love the lord so this discussion can go on and on but past the team but this is a very tricky situation pastors must you know search their hearts and ask ourselves are we just going to be excited because 5 ten million have been brought into the church i like what the example gave where a man of god decided this is not going to get into the work of god i mean he was very gracious others would probably have just stood there and decided this man will be used to build a water well for the community outside here that one was very kind if you use the money within the church others radical ones would say and they would just stand right there on the puppet and say we thank god for this money there is a project we've been wanting to do for some needy people in the village here this man will go there publicly because the other problem let me finish with this the other challenge that comes is the moment you allow these things to begin to happen because a lot of times maybe the amount of money given is not public declared members of a church can easily begin to think that the church has been left with so much money and so then if money was brought why do we need to give for that and that project so there's always a problem of creating a very dependent syndrome that can really break the church if you are not careful as a minister wow i i think bishop you've handled it very well radically softly but very radical and i believe the message is home and and you know there's no other way my house shall be called the house of prayer when the politicians organize their political rallies and you're a preacher try to convert that rally into a crusade you'll know the agenda was not a crusade so when they come to church let them not convert church into a political rally and we bless the lord and thank you for joining us that's our time apostolic clinic see you next monday [Music]

Channel: Elevate TV Kenya

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Id: v7A2YJGuSv8

Length: 57min 47sec (3467 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 20 2021