Anne Sweet - Spirituality, Self-enquiry, Awakening, Know Thyself, Consciousness - BatGap Interview

>>Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas  Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the   Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations  with spiritually awakening people. I have done   about 630 of them now and if this is new to  you and you'd like to check out previous ones,   please go to batgap.com and look under the  past interviews menu. You can also of course,   explore the YouTube channel but the  advantage of going to BatGap.com is we have,   you know, different ways that we've indexed the  interviews as a categorical index and there's   another page with a search  function where you can quickly find   a particular person or something. There's  also a page of the most popular interviews.   This program is made possible through the  support of appreciative listeners and viewers   so if you appreciate it, and would like to help  support it, there's a PayPal button on the site.   In fact, it's on every page. And there's  also a page with alternatives to PayPal.   My guest today is Anne Sweet. Anne lives in  Sydney, Australia, and let's see, it's about   3.30 my time on Saturday in Iowa and it's, what is  it where you are? 9.30 in the morning on Sunday?  >>Anne Sweet: It's Sunday at 8:30. >>Rick Archer: Crack of dawn.   Anne has a very interesting story. And who she's  going to tell us. I'm not gonna read her bio,   but she'll just start telling her story.  And she also has a very useful website,   I think it's called The End of Seeking.org and  I'll be linking to it from her page on batgap.com.   There's a lot of really good information  laid out in a systematic, point-by-point way,   and it's not voluminous, it won't take you weeks  and weeks to read - long, long essays. But what   she says is just very concise and, I think,  based upon a lifetime really of sincere spiritual   aspiration, which was fruitful  for her and continues to be. So   let's get started. You've been with a number of  teachers, some of them with colorful reputations.   And maybe we should just start unless you feel  like you'd like to start earlier than this.   You know, what was it first sort of piqued  your interest in spirituality and made you   seek out some kind of teacher or teaching? >>Anne Sweet: Um, I think I was a pretty unhappy   person, you know, young person. And my  family situation had been quite traumatic   so I think I was looking for answers.  And I couldn't really, I saw that,   you know, around me, you know, through the  press, and my family and society and so on   everyone seemed to be stumbling around, no one  really seemed to know what was going on. And   people were kind of living their mechanical lives  but no one really seemed to have the answers.   And I was asking all the questions. Why are we  here? What's this all about? What's it all for?   And so there was a, I think, from the unhappiness  point of view, I was looking for a way out.   And from inside, I was, I don't know if I could  Intuit something else, but I definitely wanted   answers. And what really set the whole thing in  motion was a book I picked up in London, which was   a book of Osho in the mid-70s, or, I think 1977/78  and suddenly, in these pages were all the answers   that I had been looking for. And I'd never really  been able to kind of fit into the mainstream   society of wanting a job and a husband and family  and so on and he was saying 'You're not here to   fulfill other people's expectations, you're here  to find who you truly are'. And I'd never heard   that, I'd never heard about spiritual teachers  or spiritual teachings. And this was the first   exposure. And I was I was aflame, I was absolutely  aflame. And I think within a very short time I was   living in India and part of the ashram and so on.  So that was the beginning for me. And I think,   you know, I didn't, I didn't even think to look  for other teachers or other teachings. I had this   book of truth, what I thought was a book  of truth in my hands and that was more than   enough for me. So that was the beginning. I  think I was 24 or 25, something like that.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah I was gonna ask how you got  through the 60s without having heard of other   spiritual teachers and things, but you were  only 14 or 15 in that period, so, you know,   you wouldn't necessarily have heard about them.  And the thing about suffering, you know, I mean,   I also went through some pretty rough  stuff and a lot of people did. And,   you know, I have this feeling that all is well  and wisely put, and in my own life, I don't   think I would have been as dedicated a spiritual  aspirant if I hadn't had such a rough time. Some,   maybe not everybody needs that. Some people have  a pretty smooth ride, and they just, you know,   like our friend, Harri Aalto whom we were  just talking about. But, you know, for me,   at least, the contrast was so great between  what I had been going through and what I   began to experience as soon as I, you know,  got into meditation and spiritual things   I thought, well, this is it and I never looked  back. Okay, so. So you went to Puna, right to   the Osho ashram and you ended up spending time  in Oregon also. And I've interviewed quite a few   people who were with Osho including one guy who  was sort of his personal bodyguard or something,   I don't know, he's pretty close to him. And even  though Osho has a rather checkered reputation,   most of the people I've spoken to feel like it was  worth it, it was a good thing. They don't really   have any regrets. Although, you know, probably,  many of them, like yourself, did leave before the   whole thing completely fizzled out. You feel that  way, too. It was sort of like alright, that was   an interesting experience and I learned stuff? >>Anne Sweet: I think if I'd been wiser and more   mature, I would have chosen a different teacher  for sure and one with less kind of complexity and  >>Rick Archer: Fewer Rolls Royce's. >>Anne Sweet: Yes fewer Rolls Royce's  >>Rick Archer: One or two? >>Anne Sweet: Yeah none   at all. You know I would have probably gone for  someone different but that was the stage I was   at too you know. I was a kind of misfit and it  was a sort of community of misfits who all came   together around Osho. So there were some very  beautiful aspects to the whole thing and some   quite remarkable aspects. And it was wonderful  to be in that. You know thousands of young people   all in this Indian ashram meditating and dancing  and working and so on. And the times with him   when he was teaching were very exquisite, you  know. All of that was fantastic. But there was   so many deep flaws running through the whole  thing and some very distasteful things which   I can't accept, I don't accept as being the  right way to go about things. So my hindsight   is very mixed, I would say, very mixed. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, I sometimes   think to myself, geez, I wish I could have had  my current level of wisdom and maturity when I   went through high school, you know. But it doesn't  work that way. If I'm reincarnated, maybe I will.   Did you feel that Wild, Wild Country was  a fair representation of that whole scene?  >>Anne Sweet: It probably didn't go deep  enough into some of the less salubrious   aspects of the whole thing. I think it gave a  broad overview. I thought it was pretty accurate.   But I think a lot more went on that  wasn't shown that were negatives.  >>Rick Archer: Okay. So I guess at some point, the  Titanic was sinking and you managed to get into a   lifeboat and sail on to something else, right? >>Anne Sweet: Yes.  >>Rick Archer: And that something else  was that Andrew Cohen right away? Or   did you do something in between? >>Anne Sweet: No, what happened,   a bunch of the artists from the ranch from Oregon  we all moved east to the North Shore of Boston and   had a big house together and we're trying to put  our lives together. We'd been living, you know, in   this ashram situation, very unworldly. None of us  had really, you know, any kind of qualifications   to get our lives together. We didn't have any  money a little gone to, you know and that's when   the channeling thing just spontaneously happened.  So I suddenly found myself in this other dimension   or with access to this other dimension so that  that kind of happened for a couple of years.  >>Rick Archer: Elaborate on that  a little bit. I mean, how did it   start happening and what actually happened? >>Anne Sweet: Um, well, we were all pretty   traumatized after the ranch was starting to  collapse and it was a very traumatic time. And   I was with a girlfriend, a friend of mine,  in an ice cream parlor somewhere you know,   near Boston. And she was pouring her heart out and  saying, I don't know what to do, and my family's   falling apart, and I have no way of making a  living, and so on. And we're eating ice cream and   I felt my eyes close. And this deep, it was almost  like a deep slumber, but it wasn't a slumber it   was as though I was falling into the very center  of my being, and I couldn't keep my eyes open.   And this voice that wasn't mine came out of me  and started telling her, just giving her a kind of   broad view on who she was. And very gently, very  kindly, very uninvasively really not telling her   what to do but just framing the whole thing  and making it easy for her to see what the   next steps might be. And I don't know how long  it went on for maybe 15 minutes or something   and I opened my eyes and both of our ice creams  had melted and we were just staring at each other   going 'what on earth was that?' It was very  exciting, because it totally spoke to her.   It was absolutely accurate for where she was  and what was happening. And so we went home,   and I experimented on everyone in the  house to see if this would happen again.   And it did it and the entity that I was working  with or who came through me or whatever,   they started to train me on how to be grounded  in the whole thing and who they were and what it   was all about. And so I just naturally did that  for a couple of years. people came, you know,   I didn't have to advertise people just came. >>Rick Archer: Did you manage   to make a living at it? >>Anne Sweet: I did, yeah.  >>Rick Archer: So there's your solution to that. >>Anne Sweet:   I was also an artist. So I had these two.  >>Rick Archer: Who was the entity?  Who did they say they were?  >>Anne Sweet: The final group of entities that I  worked with called themselves Entity Kailith. So   it was a group that came through as one voice. >>Rick Archer: Isn't that interesting? I mean,   I guess a lot of people who channel and  I've interviewed a few channelers but   I don't remember the details. I've interviewed  Bashar and a few other people but don't remember   whether they just came on like yours did or  whether they tried to make something happen.   But it is an interesting phenomenon. And  it didn't seem to hurt you any right?  >>Anne Sweet: What it did, I mean, I always  found it mystifying. And I always found it   terrifying because the client would come and  sit in front of me and I wouldn't know them,   I'd never met him before. And I had no guarantee  that anything would happen, you know. So   I was always incredibly nervous because I had no  control over the whole situation. And then these   things would come out and they would really all  be amazing, they would be amazing. And the people   would be incredibly grateful for that insight. And  so my mother came for a session, you know. She was   a psychotherapist and university lecturer and very  suspicious of this whole thing that I was doing.   I couldn't understand it. I also didn't understand  it so I wasn't very helpful in explaining it to   her. And they talked about her in a way that I had  no way of, I'd never been, I didn't know all those   things about her psychology and who she was as a  person. But what happened was I kind of ended up   not being very part of the earth. >>Rick Archer:   Got two ungrounded >>Anne Sweet: Yeah became very ungrounded   and part of a different sphere and quite fragile  physically I think, as well. And also, you know   that particular realm, that dimensional  sphere, I didn't know very much about it,   contains some very negative entities as well as  very positive entities. And I started getting   a few sort of cyber-attacks from these guys. And  so it seemed to me that it wasn't doing, I didn't   want to be exposed in that way and I felt it was  really time to get my feet back on the ground. So  >>Rick Archer: When you were doing the channel  did you feel that you were really being taken   over as if some other intelligence was using your  mind body system and you were just kind of back in   the corner someplace allowing it to happen? >>Anne Sweet: Yeah, absolutely. They were   using my brain and my way of speaking my words,  you know, my language and so on. But I didn't   have the information that they had. >>Rick Archer: Did you feel like you   could have just said alright, I'm quitting  right now I'm standing up or were you so   taken over you couldn't have done that? >>Anne Sweet: The taking over was very   beautiful. It was a very, it was a very deep,  meditative place. And with the entities that I was   working with, it felt very, very safe. You know,  it was a beautiful space for me to be in, almost   a place of rest on one level. So yeah, and there  was never pressure, there was never, it was always   incredibly respectful. And no, there was no  pressure put on me to continue or to do anything   outside of what you know, felt good for me.  So they're beautiful, the entities were just   beautiful, like, you know, like best friends. And  they would help me with my relationship, you know.   What they would usually say it was my  fault, whatever was going on was my fault.   And so they became kind of a family.  And it's an odd sort of family.  >>Rick Archer: Interesting. The first time I was  on a course with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in 1971   I didn't know anything about channeling but he  went into the whole thing about it and how, you   know, even though the entity might be positive,  and even though the information might be good,   it eventually breaks down your mind/body  coordination, and therefore, it's not conducive   to your own evolution. And that's a bit of  a generality, but he cautioned against it.   And there are a couple of people whom I've  interviewed who weren't trying to channel   or anything, but they're kind of open and one of  them was sort of a long-distance healer and stuff.   And they both reported, three people I can  think of now, who all reported being besieged   by some negative entities all of a sudden,  and you know, what the heck is going on? And,   you know, just not quite knowing  how to fend it off or turn it off.   So this is, I guess, maybe just a  cautionary note on opening ourselves up to   something that we may not fully understand. >>Anne Sweet: You don't know what   you're going to get? >>Rick Archer: Yeah.  >>Anne Sweet: You don't know. >>Rick Archer: Interesting. Okay.   So what was it that ended that phase? Did it  just kind of fade away at a certain point,   or did you make a decision? Like I've done enough  of that. Was it because you were getting so   ungrounded? You thought you'd better stop? >>Anne Sweet: Yeah, yeah, it was,   it was time to get into my worldly life. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay, good. And then what?  >>Anne Sweet: Then, after, I think there were a  few years I looked after my parents as they were   ill and dying. And then I moved to Byron Bay and  that's when I came across one of Andrew's books.   I'd been back to the ashram I think to live  back in the ashram in India for another year.   And I sort of saw through, you know, it was a very  mythological situation with Osho, you know, he was   this mythological figure. And there was a lot of  glamour and a lot of money swishing through the   ashram, you know and it was impossible as someone  who wasn't, you know, like a close disciple,   to kind of penetrate the mystery. But I was living  in the ashram for that final year and I kind of   saw through. It satisfied that year, Osho had died  by then. But it was finished. So the Osho thing   was finished. And this book of Andrew's again,  it set me on fire. I think I was really ready for   a close and serious relationship with the teacher.  I'd been, you know, at arm's length with Osho. And   I really desperately wanted to get somewhere  in spiritual life and I was prepared to risk   everything, go anywhere, do anything. I just had  enough of not understanding and not realizing what   this whole thing was about. So I threw myself in  headfirst with the whole thing with him. And that   was, you know, eight years of being with Andrew, >>Rick Archer: Did you know my friend Igal   Harmelin in those days? >>Anne Sweet: Yes. Yes. We've   been in contact recently. Yeah, >>Rick Archer: He's a good guy.   He was actually on BatGap years ago towards the  very beginning. In fact, I think he was still with   Andrew at that point. Okay. And so obviously,  that whole situation eventually broke down   with controversies swirling around and so on. But  you feel like you got a lot out of it. Or did you?  >>Anne Sweet: Yes, again, yes and no. It's very,  very mixed in retrospect. There were a lot of   great positive things. I mean to give oneself so  totally, and he insisted that you gave yourself   totally, so you know, it was an environment where  we were all operating at our highest level, the   highest level possible that we could all the time.  And we were doing enormous amounts of practice,   I mean, hours every day of intense practice  and meetings where, you know, you kind of,   it was imperative that you sort of expressed an  enlightened view whether you were enlightened or   not kind of thing. So the pressure was enormous. >>Rick Archer: And why would you want to do that?   Was it supposed to actualize your enlightenment  if you expressed one even if you weren't or   was it kind of one-upmanship, where everybody  had to sound like they're enlightened.  >>Anne Sweet: Um it wasn't one-upmanship,  I think it was to draw on the enlightened   perspective within oneself. So you had to sort  of find a way of putting your ego aside and speak   from your authentic self. And the consequences  for not doing that were really severe. You know,   it was a very punishing environment. You know,  if you got it wrong, you were sort of, yeah,   it wasn't very pleasant if you didn't manage to. >>Rick Archer: I mean, I heard stories about him   making people stand in cold water or, you know, do  other physically painful things. Yeah. So that's   the kind of thing that you're alluding to? >>Anne Sweet: There was that. There was   quite a lot of that. But there was also a lot of  shaming and making people feel really awful about   themselves, like they were fed failed, and there  was an unhealthy undercurrent to the whole thing.  >>Rick Archer: Seems like that would really be  fodder for people with sadistic personalities   who love to bully people. It would sort  of be an opportunity for them to really   indulge in that tendency. >>Anne Sweet: Perhaps, yes,   yes. >>Rick Archer: Because I was in an encounter group   one time in the late 60s, and there were certain  people who were just nasty and bullies. And they,   you know, the encounter group was like yelling  at each other and things like that. And some   people were really good at it, because they were,  you know, that's the way they were. People were   shattered by being the recipients of that. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes, yes. And I think a   lot of people did get shattered. And I think  a lot of people left feeling like they had   failed as a person and failed in spiritual  life. And I think that's a very unfortunate   and damaging legacy to leave with people. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Was there, did Andrew   sort of feel like he was a latter-day Milarepa or  something and it was appropriate to treat people   that way for their own ego diminishment? >>Anne Sweet: Well, I think I think you've   understood the situation very well, Rick. I think  Andrew believed that his enlightenment was perfect   and that he had no more ego to deal with and that  everything that he did, and everything he said,   was coming from this, you know,  profoundly enlightened place.   And he had no authority over him, you  know. He'd fallen out with his guru,   his guru had denied him. And so he, you  can imagine the consequences for him.   So exactly those consequences ended up playing  out. So I think you've understood it very well.  >>Rick Archer: What do you  think about his efforts around   atonement and rehabilitation in recent years? >>Anne Sweet: I think maybe initially,   his apologies to his ex-community were genuine  but they didn't go far enough. I mean, a lot   of us are still very much in touch. You know,  we're in contact with each other. And there's   a lot of unfinished business around Andrew.  And he apologized to a few people in person   but not the majority of us, you know. And I think  very, very quickly, as soon as he started to get   back on his feet a bit, I think the first couple  of years when the whole thing fell to pieces was   very traumatic for him, and incredibly devastating  as it would be, and should be. But I think as soon   as he started to get a little bit stronger,  the desire to reclaim his position as a guru   came rushing back in, and so I mean yeah, I think  you can't build something new. He's building a   new kind of community. I don't think you can do  that and still leave this enormous mess behind   you. So it's incomplete for a lot of people. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, you had a great quote   from somebody was it Nisargadatta? I've  got it in my notes someplace about how   you can't sort of - you remember the quote? >>Anne Sweet: Yes, you can't leave a mess behind   and move on, it will pull you back. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Interesting.   It pertains to a lot of possibilities that quote,  but it's a good one. Yeah, so what was the final   impetus for you to leave that scene? >>Anne Sweet: Um, I was exhausted and I was   broke and I was trying to establish myself as an  artist in London which very difficult thing to do   and my health wasn't very good. And there was  just this kind of disaster approaching of,   you know, financial, physical, and every other  way, emotional and I think I just didn't want   to do it anymore. I didn't, I just, I'd had  enough. I'd had enough of the whole thing.   And some things happened that I  felt were just not right. You know,   they just weren't right. And I didn't want to be  part of that anymore. This kind of impersonal,   only the teachings matter, you don't  matter. You know, it was some kind of   cruelty to people in very vulnerable situations,  very vulnerable states. And I just felt that was   so inhuman, and I just knew that if I fell into  a hole like that, I would be treated the same   way. And I didn't want that. And I'd also treated  other people in my time the same way. You know,   we were all enculturated to be very fierce and  ferocious and shaming and so it just, it was the   end. I couldn't do it anymore. And so I left. >>Rick Archer: Well, I'm glad you did.   And that's a syndrome that you see in spiritual  groups sometimes is the ends justify the means,   you know, we have this grand glorious, it's like  the Blues Brothers, we're on a mission from God.   Lose brothers. And, and so, you know, you kind  of doesn't matter if there's a few casualties.   You know, you have to throw a few people  overboard, because our mission is so grand.   And it doesn't culture the heart. I'll tell  you that. No, absolutely not. And culturing   the heart I think is an important aspect of  spirituality unless you can be an enlightened sob,   but I don't know if you'd want to be. >>Anne Sweet: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.   So the heart was missing completely. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, and then at some point,   you got involved with Lee Lozowick, right? >>Anne Sweet: Well, yes, Lee had a wonderful   influence on those of us who  were kind of the walking wounded   from the Andrew experience. He took us under  his wing and very kindly just reoriented us,   because, you know, for us, he was a peer  of Andrew and so we could trust what he   was saying. And he was very critical of Andrew  and what had happened and his teaching methods.   And he kind of saved many of us. He just took care  of the whole situation and calmed everything down.   And a lot of us were able to find our feet because  of him because when you leave a cult situation,   you know, you're a mess, basically, you're a mess.  And I was definitely a mess. I couldn't quite put   the two things together, you know, the commitment  that I'd had and then the fact that I'd left. And   so I was trying to put the story together  and these two realities, which was sort of   crashing. But I think for me, something happened  before I got involved with Les, that was really   the turning point for me, after leaving Andrew,  and maybe it would be good to cover that.   So when I left I was completely alone. I didn't  know anybody else in England and I was trying to   establish my art career and I didn't want to move  back to Australia. But I didn't know anyone and   I had very little money. I was horribly in debt  from those years with Andrew and I had no way to   live because I was living in the community. And  so I was a complete mess, you know, emotionally   and physically and mentally and so on. Anyway,  I found a little room to rent. And I was alone   in that little room and I was alone in the studio  and I didn't have anyone around to bounce off and   I was starting to fragment mentally I could feel  that. I couldn't kind of, I wasn't keeping it   together and that was an unknown thing for me.  I'd always somehow managed to keep it together   but I realized that I was getting in  trouble. you know, mentally I was starting to   get into some dangerous water. And so I  started to meditate really more seriously   than I'd ever done before because I needed to  find this place of stability within myself.   And the meditations, I think, because I've done  so much practice for so many years suddenly,   there was peace, you know, in the meditation,  there was peace and stillness and there was   safety from the storm. And every time I meditated,  I would be back in this ground of no problem,   you know, infinite, ease and calm and peace.  And then I would get up and all the craziness   would start and my mind would go crazy, and my  emotions would go crazy. And at a certain point,   I just saw that I was living in these two  completely different realities - two completely   different realities that didn't seem to have  anything to do with each other. And I'd never   investigated my experience in that way and I don't  think the teachings of Andrew or Osho or how I   interpreted them had led me to doing that kind of  investigation. And I thought I can't be completely   sane and clear and at peace one second, and  then a completely mad person the next who   was afraid of losing their sanity and falling  into some pit that they couldn't get out of. So   only one of these can be true, only  one of these can be true and which one,   which one is it. And the pressure was really  building in me because I was literally,   you know, losing my mind with  all the conflict that I was in.   And at a certain point the pressure built to a  certain point where I knew I had to make a leap,   I knew I had to make this leap out of the kind  of burning tower that was me because there was   no longer safety there, I had no safety in that  identity anymore. And at the same time, I was, as   we all are, incredibly attached to this self, this  personal self, this identity as this is who I am.   But the house was burning down and I had  to make a decision. And so in the midst of   all of this pressure and intensity I chose  that ground of peace and being as myself,   because it was the only stable thing. And it was  always available, it was always present when I   chose to be there. So suddenly my whole  perspective changed and my whole identity   started shifting to this wellness and wholeness  and completeness and fullness. And I would swing   back and forth as well, you know, I would  find myself back in the personal perspective   but it became less and less home for me. And  I couldn't wait to get out of there because   of the contraction and the constriction and  the unhappiness of it. And so I gave all of   my focus and again, I had nothing else going  on, I had no friends, I had no one to speak to   so all my attention for this, I  guess it was a six-month period,   went on grounding myself in this, what  for me, even though it wasn't new, it was   incredibly familiar to me from all  those years of practice, was this still   aware, open selfhood. And eventually, that's  where I remained and didn't flip back and forward   anymore. So that was really the big shift  of perspective, the big shift of identity.   But by then I was really burned out with the  whole spiritual thing. And I finally felt good,   you know, for the first time in my life I was  happy, I was settled in myself, my seeking had   come to an end, miraculously, I no longer had it.  I thought I'd fallen off the path but I thought,   well, I feel good I don't care if I've fallen  off the path. And that was enough for me, you   know. After all those years of trauma and seeking  and intensity to finally come into myself was   an enormous resolution. And so I had  no desire to be with a teacher again.   The momentum of seeking with Lee was still there  but everything in me said I'm not going near a   teacher, I don't want a teacher, I'm done with  this whole thing. And again, I thought it was   kind of a failure on my part that I didn't want to  continue seeking because seeking was my whole life   but I'd done it. I thought it  was over for me and so for years,   I didn't pay any attention to, if I came  across some sort of spiritual thing, you know,   on Facebook or something I would feel  physically ill, you know. If I came   across some sort of quote from Maharishi I'd  be like, Oh God, you know. So for years, I   couldn't bear anything to do with spirituality. >>Rick Archer: What were you still meditating   during those years? But just somehow, essentially  you were able to just choose, you know.   Because I went through a phase also where it was  like swinging back and forth and it was heaven   and hell and heaven and hell but I couldn't have  just chosen or at least I didn't know I could, I   didn't think I could. But eventually, it smoothed  out, you know but essentially you were able to   just make that choice and it actually stuck. >>Anne Sweet: Oh no, no, no. Well, as I said,   my house was burning down, it was an emergency. If  I'd stayed just as I was I would have bombed out,   I would have bombed out. So the risk of making  that choice and of shifting that identity,   the words are clumsy but I know  you know what I mean, was less   frightening than staying as I had always been. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. I do think we could talk   about this more later, maybe. But I do think that  everything you had gone through prior to that   got you to the point where you're able to make the  choice. You wouldn't necessarily have been able to   make it 20 or 30 years before. >>Anne Sweet: Exactly,  >>Rick Archer: Which, you know, is  a whole topic we can get into. But   there are all kinds of spiritual practices  and things that people do on the path. And   they can have their value in, you know, maybe  even though they're not ultimate, in some sense,   but they have value as preparatory things that  get you to the point to actually cross a threshold   when you're ready or to get you're ready to? >>Anne Sweet: Yes, I think that every tuning that   you make, towards your own self, counts towards  your eventual transformation. I feel it's a build,   you know. You build and build and build. For some  people that happens very, you know, can happen   very quickly and automatically with no, you know,  prior history with it. But exactly, as you said,   it all goes towards this one, one thing. >>Rick Archer: Yeah and there's also a neuro   physiological thing going on where actual changes  are taking place in the brain and nervous system   which need to take place because, you know, what  we're talking about here ultimately is a very   different style of functioning. And if the mind  is functioning differently or the consciousness is   radically different, there's got to be some  corresponding radical difference in the way   the neurophysiology is operating. >>Anne Sweet: Yes,   you have to build those grooves. >>Rick Archer: Yeah,  >>Anne Sweet: most people   have to build those grooves. Yeah. >>Rick Archer: Okay, so then what?  >>Anne Sweet: Well, then, I think I became a  little bit interested in spirit that was maybe 10   years and I was focusing on building my art career  and that took, you know, I had no money and,  >>Rick Archer: Is that one of your art  pieces behind you on the wall there?  >>Anne Sweet: Yes. >>Rick Archer: Nice.  >>Anne Sweet: And so that was taking up  enormous amounts of my energy and time. I   moved back to Australia and then met my partner  and then when life sort of settled down a bit   I started reading again, I started reading  the scriptures and the teachings again, and   I couldn't believe it. It was like I  actually understood them. I understood them   not in the way that I, when I had  read them all those years before,   they were pointing to something that I  intuited but couldn't reach myself, I couldn't.   I was longing for what they were saying, but I  wasn't there. And their words filled me with this   longing and this, you know, desire for liberation  but it seemed a long way away. And then,   here, I was reading again. I knew what they were  actually talking about from my own experience. And   I thought this, this is weird, this is weird. And  it didn't really matter which tradition or which   teacher I was reading, I understood. I kind  of understood where they were coming from   and what they were trying to impart and,  and how their methods might work, and so on.   And I understood, you know, the different  arguments from the different traditions   and why they were arguing those points. And that  made sense to me and I could see the truth in this   and I could see the truth in that and I thought  it can't, it's not possible that I can understand   this, it's not possible that I can read these and  know what they're talking about. And I thought,   I've been deluded so many times in spiritual life.  And I know so many people who've been deluded   about their state and where they've arrived at and  everything. And I thought, I'm probably deluded.   You know, I'm probably completely deluded. And >>Rick Archer: That's an interesting   point that you make there because one thing I  often say is that the first thing that delusion   does to you is deludes you to the fact that you're  deluded. So the fact that you thought you might   be deluded was a healthy sign, I think. >>Anne Sweet: Well, I didn't have that   insight when I was saying I was deluded. And so,  you know, I was reading ferociously again and I   wasn't finding any fault in my own understanding  but I totally doubted myself. And so I,   there was a kind of grumpy old Vedanta teacher  that I felt I could trust with my story,   I really needed to know, I really >>Rick Archer: Sailor Bob?  >>Anne Sweet: I'd rather not say, >>Rick Archer: Oh okay.  >>Anne Sweet: So I really wanted to know, I  didn't want to get involved with the teacher.   But I needed to know, am I completely off the  rails? Have I actually now lost my mind, you know,   and think that I'm enlightened or something?  Or do I understand what I understand is what   I understand and where I'm based the truth.  So I wrote him this long letter, he'd never,   I've never written to him before, or been to any  of his classes, or retreats. And I didn't expect   to hear back from him. But I had to put it out  there. So I wrote this letter. And I just said   this is what I understand. And can you please, I  don't care what you tell must tell me the truth.   And he wrote back almost immediately, very  generously, and said, No, you've understood,   you've understood. There may be some  small areas of ignorance that you need to,   you know, to tackle and so on'. And, and he said,  'But yeah, I don't have anything more to say to   you'. So I thought this was amazing and quite  disbelieving really. But it satisfied me. Again,   that satisfied me. And so I thought Okay, well,  I can forget about this whole thing again. I   don't need to worry about being deluded.  I've understood something. I didn't put a   name on that understanding. It was just like,  I understood something, I'd solved the riddle   of my own existence and that was a huge thing for  me. And just for that, I was completely grateful.   And the fact that it was stable and enduring  and I didn't have to do anything for it,   was marvelous. So you know I just carried on  not being interested in spirituality, basically.   And then, quite recently, maybe a year  or two ago, 18 months ago, something -   I hadn't really ever spoken about what had  happened, you know, I'd maybe mentioned   something about it to a close friend, or what  have you but essentially I'd kept it to myself   all these years, because, yeah, why would you  talk about stuff like that, you know. It's like,   sounds really weird, you know, 'oh, I understood  that', you know, I couldn't imagine, you know.   And then, as I said, about 18 months ago, I  started to really, really want to talk about   all this stuff, and really share with other people  what their perspective was and what my perspective   was. And a friend of mine, Amir Fryman, who's an  author of a spiritual book, and is doing a Ph.D.   on spirituality, and spiritual exemplars. He was  putting out these amazing things on Facebook about   his process and his inquiry and being so  vulnerable about his questions and how they   were affecting him. And I lit up like a Christmas  tree. I thought this was amazing that someone   could be so vulnerable and expose themselves  especially because I'm so secretive and private.   And so I started to engage with him on Facebook.  And then I thought I've got to talk to him,   I want to tell him my story because I know he  says he's a dharma brother, I really want to share   because I was bubbling over by this time with  the need to engage with all of this again.   And so I emailed him and asked him if he  would mind that I told him my personal story,   and he was very gracious and very respectful.  And so I told him my story via email, and   he seemed to think it was very significant.  And he invited me to be an interviewee   for his research on spiritual exemplars which  I thought was hilarious, and I told my partner   Oh, oh, Amir thinks I'm a spiritual exemplar.  And we both thought it was hilarious, you know?   And, and I didn't think that I had anything  to offer Amir. I had no knowledge I had no,   you know, I wasn't carrying anything around with  me of any particular value that I could relate   to. And so I said 'Yes', you know, because  I trusted him. And I thought, what, why not?   But I expected to be kind of made a fool or  expected to sort of just be cringing going,   I don't really know the answers to your questions.  And anyway so he's a fantastic interviewer. I   mean, he's really a wonderful interviewer. And he  just kept probing, he just kept probing and asking   more and more detailed questions about my  experience and what I understood and so on.   And I had, I had all the, I was able to  answer him, I was able to clearly and easily,   just by going into my own experience, tell him  what that experience was. And it was amazing   to me to hear myself talk like that because I'd  never heard myself talk like that. And I'd never   asked those questions of myself. So I didn't  know that I knew, I didn't know that I knew.   And it's not a knowing of facts but it's a knowing  through one's own being of what all of this is.   And so we did a dozen or so of those formal  interviews and covered a lot of ground and it   was marvelous, it was absolutely marvelous. And  I was still, I was still hiding out, you know,   and then he started to put some excerpts on  his Facebook page. And people responded in   the most full-hearted way, it was amazing. And  they were just pouring themselves out with how   that affected them, and how that could relate to  their own experience and what that meant to them.   And I was at home hiding you know, I everyone else  was pouring their hearts out. And I thought this   isn't good enough, you know, I actually have to  turn up for this. And so I put a little comment   at the bottom of the whole thread and said,  'Oh, well, I'm the person he's talking about and   thank you for all of your comments, It meant a lot  to me. And from that point, I slowly started to,   you know, if you come out once you have to  actually, have to keep on coming out to all   the different things. And it was excruciating  because, you know, I don't like exposure and   I am a very private person. And so the me  that still exists inside was just cringing.   And yet, there was a, there was like a rolling  momentum inside that this just insisting that this   keep going forward, that does just keep  going forward. And little by little,   I got more used to it and more attuned to it, I  still find it all weird, a bit like channeling,   I find the whole thing a bit weird. >>Rick Archer: 'Don't hide your   light under a bushel'. Jesus said. >>Anne Sweet: Well, I think there are there are   other forces at work in these situations that have  their own ideas. And so I guess those other forces   just kept pushing me forward. So that, and then  I woke up. I don't know if I was awake or asleep.   Am I talking too much? >>Rick Archer: Oh no you're great.   Keep going. Better you than me talking. >>Anne Sweet: And then one morning just over   a year ago, I was kind of half-asleep or asleep  or awake, I can't remember, early in the morning,   and this big booming voice, like it  felt like a man's voice in my head   said, 'You will create a website. It will  be called The End of Seeking and you will   start immediately'. And honestly, the room  was just full with this sound of this voice.   And I was so intimidated by it. I woke up  and started making the website immediately.   I literally started you know, like 10 minutes  later, I had no idea how to do that or what to   say or how to organize my thoughts. It was  complete torture, it was absolute torture.   And at a certain point, I just said, 'Look, if you  want me to do this you have to help me you have to   guide me in this. I don't know how to do this,  it's too complicated, too hard. I'm not a writer'.   And so I felt like I got the help I needed  which was to destroy everything I'd already   done and start again. And over a period of about  six months, the website took shape and form. But   in the process of creating the website and  writing these things down, I really wanted   them to be, I wanted it to be helpful to  people not muddy the water or make things   more confusing for people. So I had to, every  word had to count for something. I didn't want   any fluff. There's plenty of information out  there but I wanted this very direct It's a very   helpful, very purposeful website. >>Rick Archer: You know it didn't   have a lot of fluff and I haven't read every  word on it yet but it's just very systematic   as I said in the beginning, you know, bullet  points and it's easy to follow. And that makes,   it gets right to the heart, I think  of a number of very important matters,   or matters, that should be very important to  anybody who's serious about enlightenment. So   I think you did a great job with it. >>Anne Sweet: Thank you very much. I   appreciate that. So what happened is I  had to examine every word. Is that true?   How do I know that is true? Am I just  going on what I've been conditioned through   my own spiritual search or is this actually really  deeply true? And suddenly everything I thought I   knew was up for grabs? And I did an enormous  amount of reading and self-examination and   cross-examination of myself. Am I leaning  this way? Am I leaning that way? And so   creating the website was really like a kind of  baptism of fire for my own understanding as well,   because I didn't want to put anything out there  that was just coming from, you know, an unclear   place. So and then, and then we're pretty much up  to date. And then different people have contacted   me for interviews like this and people, which  is really beautiful, people through the website,   contact me for discussions and clarifications  and so on. Really amazing people. And so   I've got a kind of negative teacher idea, you  know that. I'm not interested in that area.   But I think you can still provide a service  and be of help and offer something of value   without getting involved in all of that thing. >>Rick Archer: Well, that might be a good   starting point for talking about some  of the points that are on your website,   the negative teacher idea. Because  obviously, there have been a lot of   problems with many teachers. And it  could be argued that perhaps they,   you know, they began to teach prematurely or  something. You might know Mariana Kaplan. She was   with me last week for a while and her book Halfway  Up The Mountain, the air of premature claims to   enlightenment, both the title and the subtitle  are great, I've interviewed her a couple of times.   So there's that premature thing. People jump  into teaching, and they're half-baked. And,   you know, there are some traditions which say,  Okay, once the master kind of certifies your   enlightenment, he says, all right now, see you  in a decade, then maybe you can start teaching.   So there's no rushing into it. And I think there's  a two-edged sword there because I think sometimes   when people teach prematurely it can be disastrous  not only for their students, or if not disastrous,   at least a very kind of mixed blessing where  there might be some benefit, but also harm.   And it can be a real snare for the teacher himself  or herself. Because it can go to their heads,   you know, that they're getting all this adulation  and attention. And there have been a number of   teachers, well known and not so well known, who  really kind of went down the tubes, you know,   as a result of biting off more than they  could chew I would say in terms of their   role as a spiritual leader. >>Anne Sweet: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think to   even take the care of one soul into your own hands  should fill you with absolute terror. You know,   the awesome responsibility of taking even  one person and guiding them spiritually   should terrify you, it terribly terrifies me.  And if it doesn't terrify you, it's probably not   something you should be doing because of,  what's involved and what can go wrong,   and the harm that can be created. So I think it's  an enormously significant role that should not be   undertaken except under certain very stringent  conditions. And those conditions mean that there   needs to be also a higher authority over that  teacher or a peer, you know, a peer group that   gives honest reflection to that teacher and that  teacher is willing to accept that reflection.   And I think waiting 10 years is probably the  minimum, you know, to allow all of this to   integrate and to become wise, wiser in the whole  thing. But I think even, you know, even with all   of that the temptations and the pressures on  a teacher and on a teacher's seat, though,   again, should terrify just you should terrify  anyone who's considering taking on that role. So   I think you're right that it's not just that the  students can be adversely affected but it puts the   teacher in a position where they have to be right,  you know, they always have to be right. And it can   really narrow the teacher's ability to be a free  human being if you're protecting a business or   a reputation or having to always have the  answers to everything. So I think it's a very   fraught, a very fraught role to take on. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, there's a section on your   website called hallmarks of a genuine teacher, it  might be worth me reading these points. Must have   a well-rounded, comprehensive teaching. Track  record of flourishing students, some of whom   have awakened. No unresolved scandals. Highly  ethical standards and behavior. Endorsed by a   respected tradition, or if self-appointed,  submitting to peer review and or mentorship.   Genuine humility and vulnerability and  the willingness to be transparent about   weaknesses or mistakes. Refuses to accept  psychological transference from the student   or be the subject of guru worship or dependency.  Highly regarded by other well-respected teachers.   Be aware, though, that teachers will often close  ranks to protect each other during a crisis or   scandal. Respects the students' autonomy and  independence. Clean record with money and   donations. No excessive lifestyle spending, or  overblown ambitions. Do not make themselves the   focus of attention. Keeps the focus on their  students' evolution. So, as I read that list,   teachers come to mind who both have lived up  to those points and others who haven't. And   I heard something, sorry I'm not saying this  is true, somebody was at an Adyashanti retreat   or something and they overheard someone else  saying, I can't wait to get enlightened so I can   quit my job and become a teacher. But it's,  you know, it's a great responsibility. And   then, if you believe in karma,  there could definitely be karmic   consequences of blowing it, you  know, if you take on that role   and misuse people or abuse people, or take  advantage of them sexually, financially,   you know, in any other way, psychologically. So  it's not something that one should rush into,   you know, hastily, it's redundant. But it's like  becoming a doctor or something, you know, you   wouldn't want to start doing surgery after your  first year of medical school if you had any sense.   You wouldn't dream of doing anything like that. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, exactly, exactly. And I   think this is especially so for the gurus who  declared themselves, you know. What is that   famous saying 'There is none so untrustworthy as  the self-declared guru'. And it's not always the   case. It's not always the case, but I think it's a  suitable warning. So I agree with you completely.  >>Rick Archer: Then you also agree with  yourself because I just read all things myself.   And we're not putting down the teacher role here,  are we? I mean we need teachers and in a way,   it's good that there are so many people now  that are just teaching in small little circles,   people like yourself, who are not sitting  up on pedestals and are just sort of,   in a more peer to peer kind of way are  helping people, you know. Tich Nhat Hanh   said it may be that the next Buddha is the  sangha. So there is this sort of more peer-to-peer   dynamic taking place these days. And there are  some still big famous gurus but the peer-to-peer   thing seems to really work for a lot of people. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes. Yes. And I think   that maybe, you know, we're due to a bit of a  revolution in this field, you know, every other   area of human life in the last few hundred  years has undergone tremendous change and   progress you know, like science and medicine and  social changes and so on. But we've still got   this old model of spirituality that's thousands  of years old, you know, the teacher guru, the   teacher-student construct. And the traditions are  invaluable. And I have enormous respect for them.   But how effective is the methodology? Really?  How many people actually get through to the   other side? You know for all the people who go  into spiritual life and spend 20, 30, 40 years   studying with a teacher or being part of a  tradition it seems that not that many come all   the way through to the other side. >>Rick Archer:   Yeah, I mean - what are you wondering >>Anne Sweet: I'm wondering if it's not time   for new paradigms to emerge in this whole thing,  you know, as you said, you know, the peer-to-peer   thing, or perhaps a small group of teachers  that work with a small group of students,   so it's not so dependent on the personality and  the flaws and the biases of a specific teacher.   So I would love to see new ways of  passing on, you know, this timeless wisdom   that are more effective and that have less   negative fallout for both the teacher and the  student. I think we, I really feel we're ready for   an upgrade to how we go about this. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, I think it's   critical because, you know, I believe that  the world could easily, there are at least   half a dozen things I could think of off the  top of my head that could eradicate humanity.   And I really think that I've always believed  that spirituality might be our saving grace   if enough people could rise to a higher level of  consciousness in the world, then it would defuse   or release the pressure that keeps bubbling  out as war and climate change and, you know,   all kinds of things that could happen. But, you  know, when people, when teachers misbehave it   kind of sabotages the enterprise and so that's,  that's another consequence. It's not only bad   for students and bad for the teacher but, you  know, something so critical is taking place here,   and they kind of shoot it in the foot. >>Anne Sweet: That's exactly right.   That's exactly right. And I'm wondering,  Rick, and I have this kind of, you know,   thoughts about that, Maybe we can, we can  pull the whole thing out of the ashrams   and maybe it's possible to create a technology  like a non-mystical based technology where through   the progress made in neuroscience and  possibly with, you know, very targeted use of   psychotropic drugs and some of the  traditional or upgraded, you know,   methodologies, meditations and so on. I know  people like Jeffrey Martin are working on   this and probably others. I think Shinzen Young is  also working with a university on mindfulness and  >>Rick Archer: He's also  doing stuff with Jeffrey too.  >>Anne Sweet: Oh okay. I didn't know that. >>Rick Archer: In fact, Jeffrey has some   kind of contraption that uses magnetic fields  to stimulate certain parts of the brain. And   I saw Jeffrey one time and he'd just had Shinzen  at his house and Shinzen said he had had the best   experience he had ever had using that contraption. >>Anne Sweet: So this is what I mean. I think all   of these technologies are available, which haven't  been available for 2000 years. And so you know,   that methodology has, you know, worked to whatever  extent up until now, but we have a lot more access   to a lot more things. And I think to harness  all of that, and I think it is being harnessed.   I think we're hopefully on the brink of making  the enlightenment process more streamlined, more   accurate, more effective, using everything that's  come before, but incorporating the new processes   that are available, and I think in terms of the  quickening that you're talking about with what   needs to happen, it really needs to happen. And  so that may be one way - the old processes are too   slow-moving for our current times. And culturally  also, it belongs to a different place in time.  >>Rick Archer: Which is not to say we throw out  the entire baby with the bathwater because there's   lots of valuable stuff in these old traditions but  only a new seed can yield a new crop as they say.   And essentially, go ahead. I'm sorry, go ahead. >>Anne Sweet: Oh, no, just to   reiterate your point, that my respect  for the traditions is enormous and   what they have done and the refinement and  the nutting out of the incredibly accurate   descriptions and ways of seeing is irreplaceable.  So that all has to be brought in, it can't be,   it would be foolish beyond belief to deny  all of that. So Sorry, I interrupted you.  >>Rick Archer: No I interrupted  you. It's interesting.   Several people have mentioned to me recently this  idea of psychoactive drugs being an important tool   in this regard. And the way one person put it was,  you know, what percentage of humanity is going to   either, you know, do the kind of serious study  with the teacher that you've done or get onto   a regular practice of meditation and stick to  it, like, you know, clockwork, or, you know,   do various other things like that, and make and  really stay with it and make significant progress.   It may not be that many people, but if there  could be, you know, widespread, very responsible   use of psychedelics, not as an ongoing thing  for people, but as a kickstart, you know, that   could really open their eyes to the possibility  that there's so much more to life than they had   realized, you know, springing out of perhaps  the research at Johns Hopkins, or NYU, or Yale,   or one of these places. That could be a much  bigger society-wide catalyst for a huge shift in   people's orientation to spirituality. >>Anne Sweet: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. So that is something like  that may be happening, and it does seem to be   happening. You know, that with the legalization of  things all over the place. And with the research   taking place, it's happening in a completely  different context than it did in the late 60s.  >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes. I mean, I  don't have any personal experience   with psychoactive drugs but I see the potential,  I see the potential for breaking in the way that I   broke due to circumstances. A targeted breaking of  the old conditioning and the old self-perspective   which is then supported by everything else. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, I had personal experience   back in the 60s, and although I was a  pretty messed up kid, the takeaway from it,   which I could never forget, was just that,  you know, the way I had assumed that life is,   I had just taken for granted that the way I  perceived life was pretty much the way it is,   and pretty much the way everybody perceives  it. And you know, I got shifted into such a   radically different state of consciousness that  I just realized that there are so many different   possible perspectives on life that are much more  profound than the average person experiences. And,   you know, once I left the drug phase of my life  behind I could never forget that. And I just felt   like, that's really what life is all about, is  realizing the full potential of what one can   be, an experience as a human being, it's not  about accumulating this thing or that thing.  >>Anne Sweet: Yes, that's right. >>Rick Archer: So anyway I'm rambling a bit. But   the idea of that being something that becomes  widespread and, you know, there are many   things which have started out with a small  handful of people and have eventually become   the norm in society. It always works that way. >>Anne Sweet: Yes. And I look at the example say   of yoga and meditation which in the 60s,  you know, nobody meditated, it wasn't   a thing and yoga wasn't a thing. And now it's  ubiquitous, and in the prisons and the schools   and the corporate situations and so on. So, my  secret hope, which is not that secret is that   an enlightenment technology could also become  ingrained within society, within culture,   that this could be seen as a normal part of human  development. Not some extraordinary exceptional   thing that just happens to the few and that most  people don't even believe exists but something   that is ingrained that, you know, that for anyone  who's interested can easily access these courses   and that the discourse is happening, not just in  meditation halls and in the ashrams but it's like   a new possibility for humanity for where we are  now. I don't see that that's an impossibility,   especially as we've talked about these new  understandings and new breakthroughs happening   in neuroscience and in the use of psychotropics. >>Rick Archer: Yeah and I agree and, you know,   there have been initiatives. The TM movement  has done things. There's a wonderful woman   what's her name? (Caverly Morgan) I don't  know, she's teaching mindfulness and stuff   in the schools on the West Coast. And there  are a number of programs like that in,   you know, prisons. Gangaji was teaching  in prisons back 20 years ago. And so   many of these really problematic areas,  like the criminal justice system, have been,   or like the schools in the inner cities, have been  impacted so profoundly by these kinds of programs.   And then there's usually some kind of blowback,  you know, some fundamentalist Christians say, Oh,   you're trying to infiltrate Hinduism into  our system here, things like that. But I   think those arguments will be less and less,  you know, compelling or effective. And then   they will reach a critical mass, you  know, things become really ubiquitous.  >>Anne Sweet: And normalized and normalized. >>Rick Archer: Normalized yeah.   And like you say, it will probably have  to be stripped of any kind of esoteric or   eastern trappings, which it doesn't really  need to have in order to be effective.  >>Anne Sweet: It doesn't, it actually  doesn't. You can always add the mysticism   in after if you want, you know, I mean, I  love all the mystical side of things, but  >>Rick Archer: but you don't have to change your  name and you don't have to wear funny robes and   you don't have to burn incense. I mean, there are  so many things that handicap the introduction of   these things, because they strike people as weird. >>Anne Sweet: Yes. And also, you usually have to   take on a new set of beliefs. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, that too.  >>Anne Sweet: And so none of that is  necessary. None of that is necessary. And that   I firmly believe is what the next stage needs. >>Rick Archer: And when you mentioned beliefs   what comes to mind, in two weeks I'm going to  interview a guy named Joseph Selby and he's   written a book called The Physics of God which is  sort of a contradiction in terms in a way because   science and God, how do they fit together? But  you know, the way science works, you don't have   to believe anything. In fact, you shouldn't.  You can believe that perhaps this hypothesis   is worth putting time and money and effort and  money and doing it might yield some kind of   result. But believing it only takes you so far,  you actually have to have the empirical evidence   to verify the hypothesis or disprove it. So with  spirituality, it should really be the same way.   In the West, at least, you know, spirituality  or religion has been about what you believe.   And if you believe this you're saved, if you  don't believe it, you're going to hell, and so   on. But it really doesn't matter what a person  believes. What matters is what they experience.   And belief is only a starting point, I believe it  will be worth my doing this practice or something   because then I might experience something. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes. And I think really   that's what my website was made to do was  bring it all down into this very simple thing,   that we go through our lives in this contracted  state, often anxious and unhappy with a sense that   something's missing, and something's not quite  right, and a sense of disconnection. And we fill   that hole inside with, you know, ambition and  experiences, and sex and money. And all of   those things which only give a temporary  sense of fulfillment when all the time   we have this enormous, infinite full self that  has no end, that is connected to everything,   that has an uprising of that, as part of  its nature, its expression is an uprising of   just quiet joy and peace and love that takes  care of the existential angst that most of us   carry around with us all the time. And  so that is really the crux of the matter,   understanding that we are not this  personal sense of the historical narrative,   conditioned cell. But we are this ground of  eternity. And it's really just a shift of   understanding and a shift of self-investigation.  It doesn't need all the trappings of Eastern   mysticism. It doesn't need a whole lot but  the willingness to find out what's in there   and have enough information available that  you can differentiate between these different   parts of yourself, the false sense of  self, and the reality of who you are.   And that's really all it comes down to >>Rick Archer: Speaking of differentiating,   how do you differentiate between understanding  and experience? Because a person could pick up   the Upanishad or something and read 'I am that'  and 'all this is that', yeah, I understand that,   I can kind of get it. But they're not necessarily  having the same level of experience as the guy who   wrote those words. For that person presumably,  it was full-blown experiential reality?  >>Anne Sweet: Well, they go hand in hand.  Experience and understanding go hand in hand.  >>Rick Archer: They do, yes. >>Anne Sweet: So, and each one supports the other.   And without the other one is going to fall over,  you need both. And I think for me personally,   and I think for my generation of seekers,  the experiencing side was at the forefront,   you know. I wanted the bliss, I wanted to have a  master, a perfect master I could devote myself to,   I wanted these amazing spiritual experiences  and I had all of that, but I didn't understand   what they were, I had no idea. I couldn't  contextualize them. So all they were experiences.   And I thought if I had enough of those  experiences I would get enlightened. And that's   a myth that simply has to die, it has to die. If  I'd had the understanding and the wisdom and the   teaching or the understanding of the teaching  that I had to contextualize those experiences.   I had to know what they meant. I had to know  how it all fits together. If I was experiencing   bliss and peace and an infinite spaciousness and  love was that an aspect of my ego or was that   something quite different? Was that a doorway  into my own true being? But I didn't have those   understandings or insights. And so I spent 30  years chasing experiences until the whole show   ground into a catastrophe, you know, a grounding  catastrophe. And I was fortunate enough that   I didn't fall into the bottomless pit, you know,  that I was able to make that shift of perspective,   that shift of identity. So, yeah, so. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, that's good.   Let me just refine it a little bit. On the one  hand, if you read the Yoga Sutras, for instance,   Patanjali says yoga is the cessation of the  fluctuations of the mind, and then the seer rests   in the self, okay. In other words, you meditate  and go into Samadhi. So you can say that's an   experience and it doesn't last. But there is, and  we were talking earlier about neurophysiological   refinement or transformation, there is something  to be said for having an experience like that   repeatedly because over time it stabilizes  much in the way that in ancient India,   they would dip a cloth in the dye then bleach  it in the sun then dip it in the dye then bleach   in the sun. Go back and forth enough times and it  wouldn't lose its color even if it was in the sun.   So you might say, in a way, I don't know  if it'd be fair to say that what the yogi   Patanjali is writing about is chasing experiences  but it's just a certain path where it's understood   that, you know, regular, intermittent,  clear glimpses of the self will eventually   lead one to the point where that  realization can be stabilized.   Do you agree with that and feel free to disagree? >>Anne Sweet: Well, it was within a context of the   teachings so the experiences weren't  just happening for their own sake.   Experiencing or chasing experiencing, having  these experiences wasn't just to have an amazing   experience. He had a whole contextual teaching  in which they were embedded. And yes, you do need   glimpses you do need experiences to know what  it is that you're going towards, you need to   know what to give faith and to give confidence  that you're on the right track. I'm not against   experiences. I'm against chasing experiences  and not knowing what they mean so that you're   on this endless road looking for experiences  and looking for a kind of spiritual high.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah, as a matter of fact,  we were talking about psychedelics a little   while ago. I've talked to people who have  friends who can't wait for the weekend because   they're gonna take psilocybin again and they  figure maybe this time it'll break through and   it'll be permanent. They're chasing experiences. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes so I agree with what you   were saying about Patanjali that yes, all of those  are significant. But again, there are two legs to   this, the experience and the understanding of it  and that's what goes to make, you know, something   significant and grounded and integrated possible. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And I think that's the case   all the way along the journey is, you know, the  two legs are experience and understanding. You   can't you can't really make much progress  if you're just trying to hop on one.  >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes, yes. >>Rick Archer: In fact, Vedanta very much   sides with the notion of understanding or,  not understanding in a merely intellectual   sense but the subtlest level of understanding  being the final bridge to permanent realization.  >>Anne Sweet: Well it's interesting with Vedanta  because Vedanta really helped me contextualize   my experience. That was what really answered a  lot of my lingering questions, you know. When   I had approached that grumpy old  teacher I'd gotten interested in Vedanta   and it wouldn't have interested me 20 years  ago because I wanted the highs and I wanted   the love experience, I wanted the devotion and  the Bhakti and all the rest of it. And Vedanta,  >>Rick Archer: Which are also  valid, and those are, yeah,  >>Anne Sweet: They're valid but again there has  to be another link to them, they can just be.   But Vedanta just looked like this dry, boring  textbook, you know. I thought, Oh, my God.   But approaching it from a place of, I really  want to understand how this whole thing works,   what was that 30 years of seeking all about? I  couldn't make sense of it. And Vedanta opened   those doors for me. It gave me the ability to  see the relationships between all things myself,   my true self, God, the world, and  how they all kind of fit together.   But in any system, no matter how refined and no  matter how comprehensive they all have their bias,   they all have their blind spot and they  all, they are not reality, they are an   impression of reality. And Vedanta for all of the  magnificence and the effectiveness of the teaching   has limitations. And I'm going to offend all  your Vedanta. But I hugely respect Vedanta.   But by focusing on one thing you have to deny  something else. And I feel I could say that   about any of the systems in any of the traditions  because, you know, as we know, the map and the   territory are not the same things. So >>Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean,   if I had to say what the limitation of Vedanta  is, and I've been studying it regularly, it's,   there's too much of an emphasis on getting out of  here. You know, I mean, this life is Maya and you   don't want to, you don't want to be reborn again,  let's just get liberated and be done with it.   And there's also not enough emphasis for my taste  on the sublime nature of divine intelligence,   which is another miracle and every little molecule  or atom and cell, you know, just the whole thing.   We're swimming in an ocean of divine intelligence  and if that doesn't make your jaw hit the floor   then you're missing something. >>Anne Sweet: What a perfect thing to say.   I appreciate what you just said. That  totally touched me. I think I lit up like   yes, yes, I completely lost my train  of thought because of what you just   said. What did you say before you >>Rick Archer: Oh just about you know,   divine intelligence and. holy mackerel, Irene  just sent in about five questions from people.  >>Anne Sweet: I just wanted to say  one thing that's going back to Vedanta   and your take on what the perhaps shortcomings are  in an otherwise wonderful system. I was watching   a video by Swami Sarvapriyananda who >>Rick Archer: He's the one I've been   studying Vedanta with twice a week for years now. >>Anne Sweet: It was a wonderful, wonderful talk.   And he said, at a certain point even Vedanta is  false. At a certain point, even Vedanta is false.   That you have to leave all of these things  behind in order to see reality as it is.   You can't carry even Vedanta with you at that   point. Even Vedanta is false. >>Rick Archer: That's great.  >>Anne Sweet: That is great. And  that is absolutely in line with what   my understanding of the whole thing is as well. >>Rick Archer: That's good. And once you cross   the river get out of the boat. >>Anne Sweet: Exactly.  >>Rick Archer: Now let's talk about what  crossing the river means. You have a   section on your website here about  common fallacies about enlightenment.   And maybe we'll go through these and discuss  them a little bit. I'll take them one by one,   you can comment. Number one that enlightenment  is extremely rare and only for the special few.  >>Anne Sweet: That is a fallacy. Yes,  yes. And I think this is something that  >>Rick Archer: and define enlightenment  before we go too far, because why don't we all  >>Anne Sweet: I don't know if I would even  want to. That's probably my least favorite word   because it has so many different  meanings to so many different people.   It's almost meaningless in and of itself. >>Rick Archer: We agree I hate to use that word.  >>Anne Sweet: I really use it under duress. So  I wouldn't attempt a definition, although I'll   try if you insist. And I think I've said it  in different ways throughout our talk already.   That it is the effortless, persistent, unchanging  knowing of oneself, as all that is, as the self,   and that the conditioned, personal historical  self is seen through and seen for what it is   as a conditioned self, as a false sense  of self that is no longer in the driving   seat. And that the self, the true  self, the self with a capital S,   which contains all, which is all, is the operating  system of the individual, is who that individual   is. And with that recognition and that being  and that effortless resting in and as the self,   comes knowledge and intelligence and love  and care and spaciousness and connectedness   and intimacy with all things. So it doesn't deny  the characteristics of the individual, it doesn't   deny that there may be deep egoic entrenched marks  within the psyche that need to be dealt with. It   doesn't indicate any kind of perfection  but what it does indicate is the stable,   unchanging knowing of the truth of who we are, >>Rick Archer: Do you think that the stable,   unchanging, knowing of the truth of who we  are could possibly be just a very significant   milestone and that there could be higher stages  at which we might approach something more akin   to perfection? And, you know, having purged,  you know, kinds of shadow materials that we   might still have retained and things like that? >>Anne Sweet: Well, anything's possible and in my   experience, I feel that there are different  growth spurts of enlightenment. That once   you have recognized the self, you know that you're  the self, that's no longer a question for you,   that has embedded that is who you are there  is continued evolution, there's much more,   much more that goes on. So it's only the  beginning of a process. It's a significant,   hugely important, and very desirable  shift from unhappiness to happiness,   from incompleteness to completeness. So it's the  beginning of a new life from a different place.   But it's only the beginning. And that continues  to expand. I don't know if it's possible for   there to be perfected beings. Maybe in this  relative world, it seems a bit unlikely   but anything is possible, anything is possible.  But for me, again, I think what I'm focusing on   in terms of with the website or with other  people, is just to get over that first line, just   get over the line, and then you know, then the  whole cosmos, the whole spiritual cosmos is there   to explore. And it's an infinite field to explore.  And someone as we were talking about Harri,   you know, has gone an incredibly long way in  exploring those further dimensions and so on. So,   it's an ecstatic and never-ending journey. >>Rick Archer: So words are only useful if we   agree upon their definitions. And if we're gonna,  you know, if we can define enlightenment, just   like you said, it's kind of this watershed point  after which, you know, we know who we are, and   there's a world of possibility To explore. Or, you  know, if we wanted to, we could say, it refers to   what happens after you've completely explored that  whole world of possibilities. But I don't know if   that is ever complete or ever could be. >>Anne Sweet: So enlightenment   is not a particularly useful word. >>Rick Archer: It's a tricky word. It   just has this superlative static connotation it's  a good one. Actually, the byline of BatGap used to   be conversations with spiritually awakened people.  And at a certain point, we realized we had to   change it to awakening because at what point can  you say you're awakened and you couldn't awaken   further or explore deeper or whatever? >>Anne Sweet: Yes,   yes, I completely agree with that. >>Rick Archer: Okay, so some other fallacies   here. Enlightenment doesn't exist. I mean, maybe  this audience doesn't have a problem with that   one. Unless it again depends on how you define it.  If you define this perfection, maybe it doesn't.   And perfection means what? I  mean everybody dies of something.   Maybe enlightenment is you don't die, you have  a light body or you attain immortality or? But   then it gets really farfetched. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, it does.  >>Rick Archer: Enlightenment  will solve all your problems,   that's an interesting one. Do  you feel like you have problems?  >>Anne Sweet: In the relative sphere, there are  always problems, that's the nature of the relative   sphere. And anyone who says that enlightenment or  awakening takes care of your rent, or, you know,   a disagreement with a friend or a partner or  any of those things or someone taking your   parking spot, you know, these are all the things  that have to be dealt with, as part of life.   And also I think the whole process of awakening  also kind of wakens up the sort of dormant,   what is it, you know, Samskaras, the dormant  psychological processes that are maybe not   very sound or very healthy and they also need  to be kind of seen and integrated, understood.  >>Rick Archer: What you're  saying is sometimes you can have   a profound shift, and even an abiding shift  and all of a sudden all kinds of stuff starts   bubbling up that you didn't even know was  there, right. Is that what you're saying,  >>Anne Sweet: Absolutely. But as far as the whole  thing of problems goes I think the difference   is that before this shift of perspective,  whatever you call it, I just think of it as   self-recognition or solving the riddle of oneself  which is very down to earth and ordinary. That   when problems arise the problems are very  immediate and you're very unprotected against   them, you know, the problems kind of hit you with  no buffering. But after this shift there's a kind   of, you're already in a very supported inner  state, there's already a ground of wellness and   wellbeing. So the problems are not so dramatic  or not so impactful. And there's an ability to,   often not always, to have a bit more clarity about  what it will take to resolve them and so on. So   the problems don't go anywhere, but your  relationship with them and your ability to   respond to them can be different. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And your   equanimity tends to be greater. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, exactly.  >>Rick Archer: One handy analogy for that,  let's say you only had $20 to your name,   and somebody gave you $5. Oh, thank you.  Well, that's huge. Or you lost $5 Oh, my God,   I have only three-quarters of what I just  had. But if you were a multi-millionaire...   Who was it? I read an article recently about  this billionaire who lives in Florida. And   he's not living a life I want to live. He sits in  front of his computer from seven in the morning   to midnight doing stock trades. He'll call his  broker at noon and the broker will say 'Well,   you're up $10 million this morning' and it's  not like a big deal. No big deal because   he has billions. So what it's $10 million. So  in a way, it's a kind of a crass analogy, but   there's an inner fullness that dawns and things  that happen in life don't tend to add tremendously   or subtract tremendously from your fullness. >>Anne Sweet: That's right. That's right. That's   right. And there's also a deepening of trust in  the whole process. There's a deepening of trust   in the whole life process. >>Rick Archer: Yeah.  >>Anne Sweet: And, and that  is a very restful place.  >>Rick Archer: There is. You know that thing  I said a little while ago that you liked about   swimming in an ocean of intelligence,  but you get to feel that you know that   this is a notion of intelligence and that  everything is unfolding in some kind of   way that exceeds your capacity to organize. And  there's a bigger organizing intelligence that's   orchestrating things for you in a way. >>Anne Sweet: Yes that's right.  >>Rick Archer: Okay, I'm skipping some  of these things about fallacies here.   We've already cleared the perfection business.   This is a good one that enlightenment  is always a sudden revelation. Sometimes   people are just waiting for the big aha moment. >>Anne Sweet: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's   another myth especially we've had here in  the West, you know, for the last two or   three decades that that's the only way it can  happen. And that's the only real enlightenment.   And I don't see that as the case at all. And I  think we covered that a little bit already with,   you know, you saying that each of those  experiences goes to concretize or to emphasize   and enlighten or illuminate the being. And so they  all count for something. So, I think I think there   are many, many ideas about enlightenment that  lead people astray and that make it possibly   more difficult for people. And I'm very keen on  simplifying and clarifying whatever those sort of   roadblocks might be, in my own small, small way. >>Rick Archer: Yeah.   Another thing that you mentioned, some people  say that, if you read Bernadette Roberts or   people like that they emphasize that all  sense of a personal self has been lost.   And that's something I've never properly  understood, really been able to grok and I don't   see how a person could function or even get up and  walk across the room unless there was some sense   of a personal self. So maybe I misunderstand what  she's trying to say. But from what I understand,   from what I understand you to be saying is that  it's not that it is utterly lost, just that it   kind of takes a backseat. What was once your,  the totality of your existence has just become   kind of a smaller part of a much larger  reality. Is that a good way of putting it?  >>Anne Sweet: I think, when  that change first happened,   the presence or the sense of that personal  self was still very much around, you know,   and was more concrete. And as time has gone on,  especially in this last year or so, I think the   more one exposes of this and the more one speaks  about it and opens oneself up to it, which has   been what has been happening in this last period,  the being, the true self really comes to dominate   very, very fully. It really seems to take up, you  know, the whole space. And there is still like,   you know, my personality hasn't changed, like,  I'm still a private person, and I'm still,   you know, I eat too much chocolate or whatever.  So, you know, so those things don't change.   But the sense of self, you know, defining  the Anne personality or the Anne identity   is pretty well impossible you know. I can't  grasp that person who lived that life. It's   not clear to me anymore. And that's been a slow  process of dissolvement. But I wouldn't say it had   gone completely by any means. And I think you are  right in saying that even when the sense of self   disappears completely there is still an operating  mechanism, there's still a functioning mechanism.   And it's interesting you said that about  Bernadette Roberts. And when I first read her work   I couldn't relate to it either. And then I had  an experience and it was only an experience and   it was only for, I don't know, a short period  of time, half an hour, I don't know how long.   I'm used to living in and as this ground of being,  it's very familiar to me, it's very known to me,   and I'm very comfortable with it. And then,  in this experience, that fell away, actually   the Self with the big S, God damn it. fell  away. It actually fell away. And what was left   was this pristine, stark, almost blindingly white  consciousness in which there was only awareness   and no self. Only awareness and no self.  There was no central reference point that all   experience came through and was understood  or what have you, there was just being.  >>Rick Archer: This has been about half an hour? >>Anne Sweet: Yeah for about half an hour. So in   that, I saw a glimpse of what Bernadette Roberts  and others have talked about. It's not my normal   state by any means but it gave me a glimpse that  there is this radical, I mean, if enlightenment,   if we call it that is a radical shift, this is an  probably even more radical shift out of any known   sense of self or being. It's stark, it's  fundamentally dimensionally different and   it's quite terrifying. I mean, I was like,  get me back to the banks of the river,   you know, I was desperate to clamber back. And  thankfully I was able to sort of, you know,   hold the fear at bay enough to be able to start  to appreciate the pristine, immaculate beauty   of this state of being. And ever since then, I've  kind of longed for it and wanted to return to it   because it's the closest to this word  perfection that I've ever come across,   you know, where the worldly self of any  kind and the spiritual self of any kind   all fall away, all of it goes. And there's just  that. So maybe that's what enlightenment is,   in which case, I'm not enlightened. And  I don't really care one way or another.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah I always wonder if someone's  in a state like that and then they stub their toe,   you know, what happens? I mean, obviously,  they don't, it's not like, you know,   Joe Schmo down the street who's experiencing pain,  somehow the pain is this localized thing that?   I don't know. >>Anne Sweet: I think you   still feel the same pain because the body has its  own autonomy and reality. I don't think, I don't   see that that would be different but the  experience would be within that field,   that immaculate field with the awareness  of the pain. That would be my sense of it.   Thankfully, I didn't stub my toe during that. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, there are so many stories   of people like Ramana Maharshi or Ramakrishna  and others who died of cancer. It would   kind of be revealed that they were really in bliss  and just the suffering was rather apparent. There   was one story Swami Sarvapriyananda told where  there was this old fellow and I guess he suffered   from, he was a kind of enlightened guru or sage in  that tradition and he suffered from severe asthma   or something. And he was awake all night coughing  and everybody could hear him and it sounds like he   was having a miserable time. And the next day,  so and so said, 'How are you doing sir?' 'Oh,   absolutely marvelous, just wonderful'. 'But we  heard you coughing all night. It sounds like   you are really suffering'. 'Oh, the body, yeah,  it's horrible. The body's in really bad shape,   but I'm just doing fine'. >>Anne Sweet: I think that's   entirely possible. That makes sense. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Some questions   have come in here. The first one alludes  to the grumpy old man, I think. I wonder   if I should ask it without mentioning his name  because you didn't want to mention his name.   What basically the guy's wondering like,  which of the teachings from that teacher   had the most lasting impact on you? >>Anne Sweet: Um, it's a bit hard to remember   now because it was some years ago. Gosh. >>Rick Archer: You don't have   to answer it if you can't. >>Anne Sweet: Yeah, I don't really have an answer   at hand. I think it was more a clarification as  I said, of how the whole thing fits together,   the personal self, the true self, the world, and  God if you like. I never really understood how   that whole thing worked and I think Vedanta  is very methodical in separating out   Mithya from reality, so untruth from truth. So I  think that was really revolutionary for me because   that had been the key to my own, you know, shift. >>Rick Archer: This, incidentally this teacher   his first name started with a B. Is this  the guy that you think I'm talking about   or is it a different person you're alluding to? >>Anne Sweet: We've spoken about this before but   yeah. So it was really just the clarification of  the spiritual path. It was the deep investigation   into one's internal experience which again  I stumbled into because I was in crisis. So   Vedanta laid out the whole picture  for me and I was able to understand   much more clearly how this whole thing works. >>Rick Archer: Okay, here's a question from   Andras Lomstein in Denmark. I use writing as  a prayer or meditation along with sitting.   When writing, I often feel something deep coming  through or becoming more clear. How do you write?   And do you have a ritual around your writing? >>Anne Sweet: I can completely relate to what   they're saying. It looks like what Andras is  saying, that's exactly my experience. I'm not a   writer and I could never have written or continue  to write the volume of things that I'm writing   from myself. It's just not part of. I'm an  artist, I don't work through the mind, you know,   it's not my thing. So I rely on, what my process  is really, I'll get an inkling of something like,   is conflict a necessary part of relationship? Or  is there another way of dealing with difference?   Does conflict always have to be part of a  release? So I have this idea of something   working away, I didn't put it there it put  itself there for whatever reason and my mind   or something got hold of it. And I won't really  know the answers but suddenly I'll get a sense   that something wants to be written. And I'll pull  up a Word document and it will write itself. And   I'll probably have to do some editing, you know,  with the whole thing but essentially it's there in   its totality. And you notice that I tend to only  write short pieces because I only get short bits   of information. So if I had to do it myself that  would be torture, it would be absolute torture,   I'd be worried about every word. And I wouldn't,  you know, I don't have that clear a mind to be   able to, you know, put all these ideas and  sentences together. So I would flounder if   I was personally responsible for my writing. So  thankfully, the writing comes as, as Andres was   saying comes from a deeper place or somewhere else  or something, something wants to be written, fine,   I'm happy with it. I tinker with it to make it,  you know, maybe, you know, change a little bit   here and there. Or if it's only half-formed  in that way I abandon it. I don't even bother   pursuing it from my point of view because I know  it's going to be somehow not quite good enough. So   I can relate to everything they're saying. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Sounds like you're   channeling again Anne. >>Anne Sweet:   No, it's different. It is not about entities this  time. It's there is a source of intelligence and   wisdom that we can pull on each and every  one of us. And we do, that's very much   part of all of our experience. I believe, >>Rick Archer: Yeah our friend Harri Alto   likes to write a lot too. He writes reams and  reams of stuff and somehow feels that helps to   clarify or anchor or something.  Find subtleties of his experience.  >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes. Yes, it's a process  of discovery because as the writing happens   and as I'm reading it I'm going oh, that's  actually, Oh, I see. So I'm learning through   the writing as well, very much so. >>Rick Archer: Probably a lot of   people can relate to this either writing  or even speaking. Let's say you're having a   philosophical discussion with a friend and,  you know, stuff comes out that you know,   you wouldn't ordinarily find  yourself saying, but just the act of   expressing brings forth something deeper. >>Anne Sweet: Exactly. I mean, this, you know,   when you invited me onto the program and I  thought my experience is always the same, I   don't know anything, I don't have a bag of tricks,  I don't have a teaching to refer to. So I can't,   you know, just automatically hand something  over that, you know, that I can rely on that's   there. And my experience is that I don't have any  knowledge. I'm not carrying around any knowledge.   And so it's always very intimidating to be  interviewed because kind of like a bit like   the channeling thing. I don't know. You know, if I  can respond, I don't know if the answers are going   to be there. And yet, exactly as you're saying,  in the act of speaking we draw on whatever it is   that's available to us. And in the drawing of  that we also profoundly increase our understanding   and we push the boundaries of our knowledge  outwards. So it's incredibly important to talk,   even if you don't really make sense or even  if you're fumbling, it doesn't have to be   perfect. But the very act of trying to  express self is self-expressing itself   and expanding and moving into new areas of  understanding. And I find that very miraculous.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah, any teacher will tell you  that the best way to learn something is to teach   it. Even probably tennis or something.  You learn something in the teaching that   you don't get by just being in the student role. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes and I feel very much like a   learner. It's why I go to Harri's group. I'm still  learning I'm still discovering. There's still   infinite territory for me to explore. So >>Rick Archer: Yeah me too.   This is a question from my friend  Raymond Schumann who has been on BatGap.   He's in Olympia, Washington. He refers to Andrew  Cohen and said he had doubts about Andrew from the   first of his books that he read but at the time  his magazine was the best spiritual periodical   available and he was wondering if you were  involved in the What is Enlightenment magazine?  >>Anne Sweet: No, no, I wasn't but the best  minds of the community were and Andrew is   very intelligent. And he, you know, he produced  that remarkable magazine. So I completely agree   with you. That was really a very, very  valuable contribution for many years,   you know, for many years. >>Rick Archer: Yeah I used   to subscribe to for a while. >>Anne Sweet:   Yeah, yeah. So no, I wasn't personally involved. >>Rick Archer: Okay. This is a question from Rob   M in Newburyport, Massachusetts, your old stomping  ground if you're on the North Shore, I guess.   Given your experiences with questionable  teachers and cult situations, why do you think   you didn't stumble into atheism  since the spiritual pursuit was   filled with impurity or lack of love? >>Anne Sweet: I think I did stumble into   atheism after the Andrew experience as I said, I  spent 10 or 15 years feeling nauseous at the very   thought of anything spiritual. So I really turned  my back on the whole thing for a very long time.   But I think spirit is a greater force than any of  our bad experiences. And I don't like to say it,   because I'm trying through the website to save  people from making the same mistakes that I made.   But at the same time and I think you talked about  it Rick, there's a cohesiveness to the totality   that we exist in where everything fits together.  So even the bad experiences go towards, you know,   some resolution, some future resolution or some  important thing. You know, it sounds a bit new   agey but it kind of feels like that. So yes, so  I think I did, I was very disillusioned with the   whole thing for a long time. But in spite  of myself, there came to be this uprising   of spirit expressing itself that wouldn't be  silenced. That was greater than any cynicism   or disappointment that I suffered. >>Rick Archer: Swami Beyondananda   calls it an upwising. Yeah, life is  interesting. I mean, I just have this,   it can seem kind of unkind sometimes. I have  conversations with friends who are atheists or   strong agnostics and they just raise issues about  all the horrible things that happen to people,   you know, starving babies, the Holocaust, and all  kinds of things, and how could there be a God,   if this kind of thing happens in the universe?  And I usually come back with, you know,   kind of philosophical answers about well, if  you're going to have a relative creation there's   got to be pairs of opposites. If there's  going to be happiness there's going to be   suffering, if there's going to be hot there's  going to be cold, fast and slow, and so on. So,   you know, we go through, I mean, Shakespeare  didn't just write comedies, he wrote tragedies,   also. There's a whole gamut of experiences that  a soul can have in the course of its evolution.   But I always kind of come around to the point that  in the big picture, if you zoom out large enough,   the whole thing is this huge evolutionary machine  and all souls, all beings are moving in the   direction of enlightenment and will eventually  reach it. And that might be pie in the sky or it   might be new agey, but that's the way I see it. >>Anne Sweet: Yeah, I probably have quite a   similar sense of things and if one can't prove  it of course, but there is a sense of, I mean, I   don't think there's perhaps individual perfection  but there is a perfection to creation and to the   movement, as you say, of evolution. And it has to  contain if there is, if there's a relative realm,   where did that come from? From an absolute realm,  perhaps but that absolute realm has to contain   everything that can't be anything external to the  absolute. It all has to be part of the picture.   And we all know that we do, yeah, anyway, so that  it's intrinsic, it's intrinsic, but you have to   be able to also see through that to the divinity  that has created it and the understanding of why.   And that's part I think about a  purpose if there's a purpose of life,   to just be through to see through. >>Rick Archer: And I think when it's   when you really see through clearly enough,  you realize it's all that divinity, you know.  >>Anne Sweet: It's all that divinity. >>Rick Archer: So there isn't some mean old God   doing stuff to us. It's, you know, if anything,  God's doing it to himself or herself or itself.   It's all just one, I saw this great cartoon. Adam  and Eve were standing there and God was hiding   behind the tree. And God had like his hand  in the Adam and Eve puppets and he also had,   he was also doing the snake. And, you  know, the whole thing was sort of.   Yeah. Okay. So what should we say in conclusion?  We've covered a lot of points, there are probably   more points we could cover. But I think  people have gotten a good sense of who you are   and what you know, what you've been through  and it's really, you know, commendable. And   although I'm sure it's not the kind of thing where  you're taking credit or feeling proud or anything,   I commend you on the dedication you've put  into this whole lifetime, I guess. And it's   borne fruit. And it's an example to people. >>Anne Sweet: Well, I think the dedication   wasn't mine and the result wasn't mine.  So I don't think we can lay claim to those   things. But I appreciate what you're saying, >>Rick Archer: Though you do have a section on   your website where you talk about the  qualities a student needs to have and   one of them is this kind of arduous. Not arduous,  what's the word you use? Just sort of a kind of a  >>Anne Sweet: Sincerity of purpose, >>Rick Archer: Sincerity and focus and,   you know, if we have a lackadaisical attitude  about it, I think we're less likely to   have the results we might otherwise have. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, it's a precision endeavor,   a precision endeavor and it's very, very  subtle. What you're looking for is something,   because it is actually part of your  experience, usually, in the background,   it's almost impossible to identify the self, the  capital S self. And so in order to discover it,   you need enormous focus and the ability to  discriminate. And if you're lackadaisical   you're not, you're simply not going to have  those tools available to you. So it takes a lot   of intention to find out what this is all about. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay. So I highly recommend   that people read your website, it'll  probably only take a person an hour to   read everything you've got on the website.  And it's really good. You could consider,   you could turn it into a booklet if you wanted  to, but people can find it on the website,   and that way you can update it more easily. But  it's a really good overview of things. We haven't,   we sort of touched on the ethical thing, speaking  of Swami Sarvapriyananda again, he often says   you can have ethics without enlightenment but  you can't have enlightenment without ethics.   And I know you're a member of the  Association for Spiritual Integrity   which is something that I and some others  started to try to have some influence on,   you know, the whole ethical values in  spiritual teaching world issue. And, you know,  >>Anne Sweet: Ethics for anyone on this path  is the beginning, the middle, and the end.   It's the beginning, the middle, and the end.  There is nothing probably more important because   the whole armature rests on that. And if there's a  distortion, that distortion is going to only grow   and become a greater aspect and eventually  derail you or derail the ones around you. So   getting yourself straight and right and Ken  Wilber's Wake Up, Grow up, Show Up and Get   It Together, you know, his clean up whatever is,  all of that is essential. That's the foundation.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And you don't get a pass. I  mean, I come across instances in which teachers   are really screwing around,  literally and figuratively. And,   you know, they say well it's just God doing  it or it's just, you know, bodies having   sensory experiences. There's no doer involved,  what kinds of, you know, Neo Advaita BS. But   they end up facing consequences not  only in terms of their reputation but   in terms of what happens to their mental state. >>Anne Sweet: It metastasizes. That distortion   metastasizes and affects the whole being. And  then to come back from that is a very difficult   and arduous thing. That's why you have to get it  right from the beginning. And you have to know   why you're doing it. And it has to be for the  right reasons. You have to be great for all   the right reasons. And it's not some kind  of conventional morality or anything like   that. It's simply the structure and the armature  that you carry forward. And if that's not right   the whole thing is going to fall at some point.  And we've seen it, we've seen how they fall. It's   only a question of time before we see it. And  then someone like Tich Nhat Hanh, you know,   who's got an, who had an enormously complex  life, you know, with so many, you know,   faculties he was running and institutions  he was running and the enormous impact   that he had. And he was straight, the  guy was straight, you know. So this is   anybody's that is all bullshit. It's all absolute  justification and bullshit and you will pay a   price and the people around you will pay a price. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, there's a quote I've probably   said this twenty times on the show but it's from  Sarva... not Sarvapriyananda, from Padmasambhava.   He said, although my awareness is as vast as the  sky my attention to karma is as fine as a grain of   barley flour. So, and by that he means, you know,  just absolutely mind your P's and Q's. You don't   get a pass no matter how enlightened you are. >>Anne Sweet: I know exactly. And I think even   more important after the enlightenment  business because you have so much more   personal power and so much more competence  and so your ego can become a very confident   ego. So you have to be more precise and more  self-aware and self-questioning and, and self.   So the razor's edge gets sharper because  there's further to fall and you have more   ability to fall from a greater height. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. I don't know if it   really happens this way but theoretically, the  judge gets punished more than the ignorant man who   doesn't know the law if the judge breaks the law. >>Anne Sweet: Yes, yes. And the same, the same   applies to a spiritual teacher or someone. >>Rick Archer: That's right. Yeah.   Okay, so you mentioned that you, we've talked  about the website. Is there a contact form on the   website if people want to get in touch? >>Anne Sweet: Yes.  >>Rick Archer: Okay plus, you have a Facebook  page and you mentioned that, you know, you have   chat to people. Do you do this one-on-one? Do  you charge money for it? Do you have webinars?   What kind of things do you do? >>Anne Sweet: People I usually do by email,   because I also have a real job. I usually do  by email, I sometimes do zoom if I think it's   important. I don't charge. I wanted to produce  or provide or offer something that wasn't part of   the commercial thing and I respect that you also  do the same thing. I don't ask for donations. I   don't have enormous capacity to engage with a huge  number of people, obviously, as just one person.   I don't do webinars, I don't do anything like  that. But I'm happy to engage with people who   have questions or want clarification. Or  sometimes all people need is to know that   someone is standing there, just there, who's just  there, who they can refer to, or go to, or so on.   And often all I do is act as a mirror.  People almost always know themselves and so   I just remain, you know, quiet and wait for them  to discover the answers for themselves. And that's   the most important thing because me giving answers  isn't really that helpful. But people discovering   for themselves what they need for themselves  is empowering and creating autonomy in that   person. I think that's very, very important >>Rick Archer: Alrighty. And, you know,   there have been over 250 people on  the call today watching this and   you'll have 1000s of views when I put this up so  you may get a bit of an influx of interest. So who   knows, maybe you'll end up doing some kind of zoom  thing where you can talk to 10 people at once if   you want to, I don't know. It's just an idea. But  anyway, people can get in touch and you'll figure   out how you're going to deal with it. >>Anne Sweet: I'll do the best I can.  >>Rick Archer: Okay, great. Well,  thanks so much, Anne. I'm really glad   we did this. I don't know who entered you as  a guest suggestion but I think maybe you did.   But whoever did I thank them for doing it? >>Anne Sweet: You did, you contacted me.  >>Rick Archer: Oh, I contacted  you. I don't know how I found   out about you but I'm really glad I did. >>Anne Sweet: it was a, thank you, it was a, I   made a comment on one of the enlightenment forums  and you contacted me a year or so ago. And that   was the beginning of our communication. Pleasure  to meet you, you know, I've seen you, you know,   doing these interviews. I always appreciate what  you're doing and who you are and the incredible   thing that you're offering, which I think is  a benefit to so many people. So thank you for   letting me be a part of this program. >>Rick Archer: It's my pleasure to have   you on and who knows, if I ever make it to  Australia we'll have a big gathering of all   the people I've interviewed in Australia. >>Anne Sweet: That would be fantastic. I   would love it. >>Rick Archer:   Alright, great. Well, thanks. So thanks Anne  and thanks to those who've been listening or   watching. Not sure who I'm going to have next  week because the guy that I was going to have   seems like it's not happening. And we're, we have  somebody in mind, don't know if we'll get them at   the last minute. But anyway, there's a page on  BatGap which is called upcoming interviews under   the search feature, interviews menu, and you can  see who we've got scheduled. And you can also   click a little icon on the right and have it put a  notice in your calendar or your notification thing   so that you can tune into these live interviews  and be reminded of when they're going to happen.   Okay, thanks for listening or watching. Go  to the website batgap.com. Explore the menus,   and we'll see you next time. >>Anne Sweet: Thank you, everyone. Thank you

Channel: BuddhaAtTheGasPump

Views: 19,240

Keywords: Osho, channelling, ‘Andrew Cohen’, spirituality, enlightenment, ethics, psychedelics

Id: 9iXT6W7Zt7A

Length: 127min 26sec (7646 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 17 2022