Duane Elgin - 2nd Buddha at the Gas Pump Interview

>>Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at  the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer.   Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of  conversations with spiritually awakening people.   We've done nearly 650 of them now, if this  if you haven't seen any of these before,   and you want to check out previous  ones, go to batgap.com, B A T G A P   and look under the past interviews menu, where  you'll see them all organized in various ways.   This program is made possible through the  support of appreciative listeners and viewers.   I say listeners because it also exists as an  audio podcast. So if you appreciate it and   would like to help support it, there are PayPal  buttons on the website and there's a page which   suggests alternatives to PayPal if you prefer  some alternative. My guest today is a good   friend Duane Elgin and I've had him on the show  before, I think it was five years ago or so.   He is an internationally recognized speaker,  author, and social visionary. He has an MBA in   business and MA in economic history. His books  include 'Choosing Earth', 'Awakening Earth',   'Voluntary Simplicity' and 'The Living Universe'.  He has worked as a senior staff member of the   Presidential Commission on the American Future.  And as senior social scientists coauthoring   numerous studies on the long-range future for  clients such as the President's Science Advisor,   the National Science Foundation, and others.  Duane has also coauthored three nonprofit   organizations working for media accountability,  and citizen empowerment. He received the Peace   Prize of Japan the Goi Award, in recognition  of his contribution to a global vision,   consciousness and lifestyle that fosters a more  sustainable and spiritual culture. Duane is the   co-director of the 'Choosing Earth Project'. He  also co-wrote a book by with Joseph Campbell.   I'd like to not I'd like to read some blurbs on  the back of his book, not to plug the book but   to emphasize the importance of the conversation  we're going to have today. And in many respects,   in some respects, I think this may be one of  the most important conversations of I've had   on this program. And as time goes on, over the  decades, I think it'll be recognized the things   we'll talk about today will be recognized as the  most important things we could have been talking   about at this time. So here are a few blurbs.  This is from Jean Houston, who has been on BatGap   'Choosing Earth is the most important book  of our time to read and dwell within it   is an awakening experience that can activate  both an ecological and spiritual revolution.'   This one is from Ervin Laszlo would love to have  on BatGap 'A truly essential book for our time,   from one of the greatest and deepest thinkers  of our time'. This is from Joanna Macy,   This may be the perfect moment for so prophetic  voice to be heard'. And let's see, read more here,   Lynne Twist, Lynn has been in BatGap not long  ago, 'Choosing Earth' is timely, relevant,   clear, potent, and absolutely brilliant. So as  you'll see as we get into this conversation, but   let me turn it over to you, Duane, because I've  talked enough for starters, why do you think this   way you can give a peep keep people a nutshell  version of what we are going to talk about? And   why you think it's as important as I obviously do? >>Duane Elgin: Well, first of all,   it's a delight to be here with you, Rick,  you're one of my favorite interviewers.   So it's a real pleasure to be here. Why is this  important? The world is in a time of profound   transition. And we can look at this in various  ways. But I'm suggesting that we go really deep   and look through the trauma of our times beyond  the gloom and doom to it to a time of profound   transformation for the entire species. There's  never been a time like this in human history.   So that's the arc of conversation I'd like to have  here today. Good, and when you say gloom and doom,   it's funny because as I was reading your  book, I was on board with what you're saying.   But I was putting myself in the mindset of some  people who might read it. Who might think 'yeah,   this guy's a bummer. He's being so pessimistic.  I mean, things aren't this bad, are they?'   And I've actually talked people had conversations  about climate change, where they say, 'Well,   you know, it's all been overblown. I mean, Al  Gore was saying things 20 years ago that didn't   come to pass. And Greta Thunberg is just over  excited young girl, she should go back to school,   you know, think all this doomsday stuff is  just an exaggeration. And it's really not   going to be that bad. isn't that bad', so on and  so forth. So I'm what would you say to put those   people give them a clearer perspective, perhaps.  I would suggest that we take the long view. I've   been looking at these trends as a futures  researcher, for truly a half century now. And   these trends grow slowly, but inexorably, and is  a vise in which humanity is going to find itself.   And we either rise to a new level of maturity and  consciousness and communication, or we're going to   collapse and fall into a really dire circumstance.  But that is not something that happens swiftly,   but it's slow. But it's inexorable, and it's  underway, now, we see it, for example, here,   I live in California, the droughts, historic, the  fires, historic. We're burning up on the west,   we're getting flooded on the east. The world is  in transition profoundly. And we can speak about   this. Yeah. As you may know, I was a student of  Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and I was on a boat ride   with him on Lake Lucerne in about 1974, or five.  And he was talking about their upcoming phase   transition, he called it and, you know, he didn't  like to scare monger. But he said, You know, it's   gonna be kind of heavy. I mean, he didn't use that  word, either. But he, you know, and people were   saying, 'what can we do about this, you know,  how can we survive this?' And he said, well,   most fundamentally, 'hold on to the Self', by that  he meant 'capital S' self, you know, know thyself,   and that will be your most secure foundation. And  that and so I got interested in the whole idea.   And I remember, early 80s, I read a book called  'Prophecies and Predictions: Everyone's Guide to   the Coming Changes' by a woman named Moira Timms.  And what she did was she took the prophecies of   ancient cultures from around the world. And she  correlated them with historical events, which   had actually come to pass. And then she, you know,  brought it up to the present day, and then kind of   took their continuing process prophecies, which  hadn't happened yet and painted a scenario, much   like the one you paint in your book, kind of like  your third option, which we'll get to as we go   along here, which is that, you know, it's going to  be rough. But we could rise out of this to a much   better civilization. And before turning it  back to you, I just want to read a quote   from your book. This is from Gus Speth, former  director of the Council on Environmental Quality.   He said, 'I used to think the top environmental  problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystems   collapse, and climate change. But I was wrong. The  top environmental problems are selfishness, greed,   and apathy. And to deal with those, we need  a spiritual and cultural transformation.   And we scientist don't know how to do that'. I  just want to say that that statements encapsulates   what has been my fundamental motivation  since I was 21 years old when I became a   meditation teacher because I felt like you  know, consciousness is most fundamental. And   you know, you remember the new dimensions radio  with Michael and Justine Toms that was great,   used to be on NPR, and they're a little tagline  the beginning was 'it is only through a change in   consciousness that the world will be changed'.  So that was what I dedicated my life to. And   I'm still doing so although there were some  diversions where I had to earn a living and stuff.   But I just felt like consciousness has the  greatest leverage, it's the most fundamental   thing. And if we can enliven, that we'll  have the biggest impact. And frankly,   I would be very pessimistic if I didn't recognize  that level of life and recognize that there seems   to be some kind of global awakening taking  place simultaneous with a global collapse,   which already seems to be underway. >>Rick Archer: Yes. Well, we are going somewhere.   People think well, this is pretty much it. We live  in a nonliving universe, it's a dead universe.   What more is there? Well, we are just touching the  surface of life. When we look at it in that way,   and it's with the new consciousness, a deeper  consciousness that we look beneath the surface   of life, to the deep aliveness that all the  world's wisdom, traditions, traditions, and   teachers have spoken about. And it is that  with that awakens a new sensibility and a   new sense of potential for the human journey.  So that's something that that is foundational   to, to my view of where we're going as well. >>Duane Elgin: Yeah, I pulled a couple more quotes   for your book on this. You said, 'if the universe  is viewed as dead at its foundations, then it is   natural to exploit the earth and use it up. If the  universe is viewed as alive at its foundations,   then it is natural to cherish here and care  for it'. And Plato, you're quoted as saying,   as having said,' the universe is a single living  creature that contains all living creatures within   it'. Einstein said, we are 'souls dressed up in  sacred biochemical garments, and our bodies are   the instruments through which our souls play  their music'. So I just want to throw those in   some beautiful quotes you put in your book. >>Rick Archer: Great Great.   Well, let's back up a little bit here. Okay. >>Duane Elgin: Because I really want to get into   exactly what you're pointing to now, but to, to  enter that, from where the dominant culture is,   finds itself right now. And we're just waking  up as a, as a culture as a species. And   we're beginning to say, 'well, what pathways lie  before us?' We see these extraordinary trends   of climate change, species extinction, resource  depletion, we're running out of fresh water,   40% of the people on the planet are already  water stressed, we have extraordinary   inequities of wealth and wellbeing around  the around the world. This cannot hold,   this cannot hold. So change is underway of  necessity. And but then the question is,   what kind of change? What are the possibilities  for the future? And after decades of research,   I find they come to three possible pathways.  And I don't think any one of these is going   to be dominant in the near future is going  to take a while for them to play themselves   out. But the three pathways are one, a pathway of  functional extinction, we're no longer a powerful   player in the evolutionary process of the planet.  So one is functional extinction. A second is just   crushing authoritarianism. We be we're already  seeing the that come alive in the world now.   And a third is the one that you Rick and I have  been drawn to with our lives and that is deep   transformation. So why don't we take a look at  the first video that really presents these three   pathways of for the audience. Okay, good. It'll  take me just a minute to get that up on screen.   When we look from a big picture perspective,  we can see three dominant pathways emerging   in response to the global mega crisis. The  first pathway is one of crash and collapse.   It's a business-as-usual approach, where we make  small changes that do not upset the status quo,   and making only small gradual changes,  systems unravel. And this culminates in a   devastating evolutionary crash and the  collapse of civilizations around the Earth.   The second pathway is an authoritarian future  that is empowered with artificial intelligence.   Collapse is prevented but at the cost of human  freedom, and creativity. A digital dictatorship   controls our future. The third pathway is one  of great transition, the old world is breaking   down and a new world is being born. An awakening  consciousness fosters a deepening of relationship   with all of life, we weave together a new world  with a higher level of potential and purpose.   This is the visual of the crash and  collapse pathway. All three pathways   have the same beginning. They start with a time  of great unraveling in the 2020s, followed by a   great fall a freefall in the 2030s and follow  then by a time of great sorrow in the 2040s.   There are two sets of arrows. The blue arrows  represent the direction the planet is headed.   The yellow arrows represent the movement  that is emerging for transformation.   You'll notice that on the crash pathway, the  yellow arrows are very thin. Continuing business   as usual with a focus on growth, extraction  and separation means the collapse will become a   devastating crash and could end in functional  extinction. Now let's look at the visual   for the authoritarian pathway. Like the crash  pathway, it shows a time of great unraveling,   followed by a great fall, and then followed by a  time of great sorrow. Again, there are only a few   yellow arrows representing transformation  coming in to help. Just before the crash,   authoritarian controls pull back the momentum  which produces a stagnant future one of constraint   and conformity, it may also produce  ruthless leaders making decisions for all.   Like the crash and authoritarian pathways, the  great transition pathway starts with a time of   great unraveling, followed by a great fall,  and then followed by a time of great sorrow.   On the great transition pathway,  there are many more uplifting arrows   moving through the 20s and 30s. The yellow  arrows represent our growing up as a species   are awakening consciousness, and our concern  and care for the wellbeing of all life. As the   yellow arrows come in to the time of great sorrow,  they provide the uplift for a great transition.   So if we are to realize a great transition, it  will require humanity to grow into our maturity,   and awaken our compassion and awareness.  So we can breed a movement of movements.   That means you and me and all of us showing up  for life on Earth. All three pathways are likely   to continue to varying degrees. The question  is, which one will guide us into the future?   And which one will your actions support? >>Rick Archer:   What I what I get when I watch that as like you  just said, all three pathways are happening now.   I mean, you can see places like China, very  authoritarian, you know, they're doing facial   recognition on everybody. If you jaywalk, you get  in trouble. And then there are, you know, well,   you could you elaborate. I mean, I don't want  to state the obvious, but then the, you know,   you and I are perhaps shooting some yellow  arrows. And, and then there's all these people who   just want to do little bitsy witsy incremental  change, or no change at all, you know,   every time there's a school shooting, 'oh, no,  we can't really change anything'. Or, you know,   'we can't stop mining coal or drilling for oil'.  And, and, you know, and they spend millions of   dollars on disinformation to try to convince  people that, you know, there are two sides   to this issue, and the science isn't settled. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. This is a time of   just profound confusion, turbulence, breakdown,  unraveling. And it's, it has been predictable.   I've been writing about the unraveling, coming  in this decade, Oh, for 40 years or more. So it's   something that we could anticipate emerging, given  the driving trends I mentioned at the outset.   So here we are as a species. And it's a time of  profound in my estimation, initiation. And we are   being asked by the forces that we have unleashed  ourselves, we're doing this to ourselves.   We're being asked to go from our adolescence  and into our early adulthood. And I've gone   around the earth for the last 40 some years, and  giving talks and often while, I will start a talk   by asking the audience are in different parts of  the world. If you look at the human family, what   life stage are we in? Are we in a toddler stage,  an adolescent stage, an adult, or an elder stage?   And I ask people not only to raise their  hands often, but to stand up for their   point of view. Take a stand for how you see  humanity. And I'll ask well, how many feel   the word a toddler says about 5% or So stand up? >>Rick Archer: Terrible twos I ve had a guy said?  >>Duane Elgin: Yes. I asked, Well, how about  the adolescent stage how many people feel that   we're in our adolescents as a species, and  overwhelmingly two thirds or three quarters   of every audience I've asked around the world  immediately stands up. And they said, Yes, we're   behaving like teenagers like adolescents. And,  and then I say, Well, look, this is good news.   What? Yes, this is good news, because the next  step beyond our adolescence is early adulthood.   But to get into early adulthood, we go through  a time of initiation. And virtually everyone   can speak to their own adolescence and  say, Wow, this was hard. This is difficult   for me to move through these years in front and  move into my early adulthood. So this is a time   of profound initiation that we're going through  right now. And I'd like to ask you to Rick to play   then the next video about our time of initiation. >>Rick Archer: Okay, I will and let me just say,   before I do that, that >>Duane Elgin: sure  >>Rick Archer: you know, not all teenagers  make it through adolescence, some   die of drug overdoses or suicide, or  they end up in jail, or they end up   damaging themselves severely in ways that  handicap them for life. So it's not a done deal.  >>Duane Elgin: That's right. Very important.  That's right. There's no guarantees, we're   gonna make it through this time of transition. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay, so I'm playing,   getting ready for the next video here. >>Joanna Macy:   Great turning, which is flat, it's a  transition we're in, we're in it now.   It's a transition or learning so much. In  science and in grassroots community building.   It's not something we do instead   of the collapse. It's something that can guide us  through it. My preposition these days, is through.   'Honey, we're gonna have to go through this'. >>Victoria Santos: The opportunity of   this time is for us to evaluate and  reassess our priorities. As a species,   we need to look at what our relationships  are to each other, to our families,   to our community, and really assess our values. >>Nate Hagens: We've arrived at a species level   conversation, our species, and we need  to own this, to find a path forward.  >>Duane Elgin: We have entered an extraordinarily  rare moment in humanity's collective journey,   the path for generations to come,  will depend on people alive today.   We cannot predict where humanity will go from  here for one simple reason. Our future depends on   our individual and collective consciousness, and  the choices that emerge from that consciousness.   There's the theme that you brought up  earlier, Rick, our consciousness, how we see   and appreciate the world, as well as in a  reflective way ourselves, and are we awakening   to our higher potentials and possibilities  or not? And our future in many ways depends   upon waking up. And seeing that we are not only  biological beings, but we're a part of a living   universe. We're bio cosmic beings. And we'll  talk about that as an uplift in a bit. But   right now, what I would say two key factors for  our evolution are first of all, are we growing up?   Just maturing as a species? We just talked about  that. Can we move into our early adult adulthood,   move beyond the reckless years of our  adolescence? We're recklessly just   destroying the ecology of life on the planet.  Can we move beyond the kind of superficial view   of life beneath the kind of materialism and  consumerism of our current culture, move beyond   role models that are, let's say, sports  stars, music, idols, movie stars, and so on?   Can we move to a deeper level of recognition of  the nature of life and a journey that we're on?   So one challenge is simply growing up as a  species. Another is what you've mentioned at   the outset and that is waking up. Can we wake  up to not only our thing In brain, but to the   reflective consciousness that we all embody? And  that you mentioned Einstein, that as a, our bodies   are carriers of this larger awareness larger and  knowing that connects us with the ecology of life.   So the challenge now is to wake up to who  we are, and then to grow into that as a as a   species as a species, not simply individuals,  but collectively mature and grow into that,   what an extraordinary time we're living in right  now, what an amazing invitation of transformation   and transition is being offered to us. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And one good point about the   growing up as a species is that we are all  connected. And, you know, you may remember that   the TM movement was doing experiments where  they tried to get large groups of people to   meditate together. And there are various theories  about how if 1% of the population were to do this,   or if it's even the square root  of 1% of the population, where   it would kind of change collective consciousness.  So not everybody would have to do such things,   which is unrealistic to expect. And there were  some studies which seem to show statistical   significance, that, in fact, when we got, you  know, seven or 8000, people together, meditating,   there will be a drop in crime and an improvement  in economic factors, and so on. So, 'a rising   tide lifts all boats'. And I kind of feel like,  even though the numbers of people on the earth,   engaging in spiritual pursuits are small, they  are growing, but they're small, relatively,   they perhaps have an influence that, you  know, much greater than their numbers.   And maybe one reason for explaining that is that  if you can work at a far more fundamental level,   you have more leverage, you know, the molecular  level is more powerful than the material under the   gross material on the atomic level is more  powerful than the molecular. So, you know,   at the level of consciousness itself, the most  fundamental level, doing something there could   have a much bigger impact than just trying to do  stuff on the surface. And that, to me, has always   been a sort of a source of possible optimism. >>Duane Elgin: Yes. So in physics,   in systems theory, there, there are insights  that have great relevance right now directly   relevant to what you were just speaking  about. And it is one a system becomes   turbulent, when it loses the coherence of the past  has yet to find his pathway into the future. And   the in between time, when things are unraveling  when things are breaking down. That's a very   high potential time for transformation and small  inputs into a system that's in great turbulence,   small inputs, the coherence of those small  inputs, the resonance of those small inputs can   permeate throughout the system, and help  reconfigure it very rapidly, very quickly.   When, in prior years, when it was a system  that was really solidified in its, let's say,   materialism, consumerism and so on, it couldn't  have that impact. But as we break down, it's a   time of freeing up and finding new pathways ahead. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, maybe you can give some   examples. One, a simple analogy that comes to mind  is like, you know, Jell-O, and you've made Jell-O,   and it's all warm and liquidy. And all,  you can pour it into any shaped mold,   and it will take that shape. But you know, if  it's already molded, then you then you can't if   it's rigid. So, you know, perhaps turbulence is  a malleable condition, and in which things can   move in directions, they wouldn't be able to  if everything was kind of stagnant or settled,   I think, that's a good way of suggesting it. >>Duane Elgin: Yes. You know,   I had I seldom speak about this,  but I'm getting old enough now that   I venture out. But in the early 1970s, I had an  opportunity at the Stanford Research Institute   for a three-year period to be a subject in their  parapsychology experiments, and there were two   kinds of experiments there was receiving remote  viewing and then sending psychokinesis and I   learned a tremendous amount about the ecology  of consciousness in the laboratory. I think very   much in keeping with the kinds of things you  we were just saying earlier. And what I found   was that if we come to life with a feeling of  separation ' I'm here and the world is out there   and whatever's going to happen, I have to  mobilize energy here and push it out there'.   That doesn't work. In physics, for every  action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.   And so we start pushing on the world, the world  is going to push back and instead of connection,   we got existential separation. However, if  we start with the understanding that's now   widespread in quantum physics. The universe is  a unified whole. That's just the way it is, is   a unified system. And it's not only unified isn't  a rising an emergent system. It's a regenerative   universe. So as the physicist David Bohm  says the universe is a unified whole   and flowing movement. Now, how can we relate  to it then? Well, instead of pushing on it,   we can go and dance with it. So domination  doesn't work, but dancing does. And so given the   understanding of the universe, coming now out  of physics, and out of laboratory experiments,   like I participated in for three years, we can  begin to shift our understanding and our intention   and our consciousness from one of domination  which is widespread in a materialistic universe,   to dancing, which is awakening now,  in the context of a living universe.   So I'm wondering, could we play that  next video regarding a living universe?   Have you ever had the experience of  seeing a delicate aliveness in the world?   Have you ever looked at a  flower or the space around you   and seen a subtle glow, a luminosity and  felt a deep kinship with all of existence?   Have you ever experienced the feeling  of oneness with the world around you,   a feeling of communion with a whole universe?   Many people assume that we live in a universe  comprised of dead matter and empty space. And   this is truly a dark night of the soul if that is  the kind of world we inhabit. Fortunately, ancient   wisdom and modern science are coming together and  we're reviewing the universe in a new way. Instead   of dead at the foundation, it is increasingly  viewed as a living system in its totality.   And certainly at the foundation of all humanity  and all of our lives and our life experience is   the direct experience of being alive. And it  is this experience of profound aliveness that   we share with all creatures, and all humans.  Sometimes I will say to nature 'surprised me',   and within a few moments, I will see the  flight of a bee the architecture of a flower.   There is an astonishing degree of  beauty and design in nature's creations.   So this is an extraordinary shift from saying  the universe has dead at the foundations. And   we're separate beings in this flatland of a  material universe to recognizing well, only 5%   of the known universe is the material universe  that includes our bodies and the stars and   planets around us. 95% of the known universe  is now recognized as invisible we can't see it,   but it is there. And we can now begin to open  with our with our awakening to aliveness that   we all carry within ourselves to the 95%  of the universe, that that goes beyond us.   I had the great privilege of coauthoring a book  with Joseph Campbell, as you mentioned, Rick,   and in an interview one time, Campbell  was asked, 'well, aren't people seeking   meaning in their lives? Isn't that what people  want is meaning?' And surprisingly, he said,   'no'. He said 'what people are looking for, is  the direct experience. of being alive. People   want to know; they want to feel it in their bones  in their bodies. This is life and I feel it'. And,   and what gives us that experience? Well, being  in nature, for example, brings that experience,   connecting with other living beings, whether  as, as animals, or we (with) our pets,   flowers, nature around us, it brings out  relationships where there's a loving relationship,   and we feel it in our hearts, making music,  that is a direct experience of expressing,   it can be, our aliveness. So there are many  ways of encountering the direct experience of   being alive and importantly, they  don't cost much, they're mostly   free. And if we need to move from a materialistic  universe (that) is over consuming the earth,   to a universe that is alive, and invites  us to grow into that sense of aliveness,   that's not going to cost a whole lot. And that's  really important, in enabling us to make this   transition to, to our greater maturity. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, my daily   routine involves walking in the woods for two  hours while listening to things preparing for   BatGap and coming home and just doing things  at my computer. And it's very simple. I don't   need a lot of entertainment. And all because I  think part of it is, it's not only that what I   do is interesting to me, but there's a  kind of a baseline of fulfillment that  >>Duane Elgin: yes, >>Rick Archer: abides regardless   of what I do or don't do. >>Duane Elgin: Yes. So  >>Rick Archer: I read says, Oh, I'm addicted to my   computer. That's useful. >>Duane Elgin:   This is something that we all share.  People recognize Well, well, of course,   I'm alive. Well, here I am here. But are we in  touch with how precious that aliveness is and   the extent of which, in a quantum universe  that's unified with itself, when we get in   touch with our inner aliveness, and, and we  touch into the aliveness of the universe,   a light goes on. And that's the light of the  light of awakening, we wake up and say, Whoa,   I'm a part of a larger living system. How do I  grow into that larger aliveness? And so what's   happening now as we make this transition from  a dead to a living universe is first of all,   is changing how we regard the life around us.  Secondly, it's changing how we regard ourselves.   We're not only biological beings, we are also  a part of the cosmos and this aliveness. So we   are inherently bio cosmic beings as who we already  are. We don't have to manufacture that. That's the   nature of reality. We are bio cosmic beings. Well,  then what are we doing here? What kind of journey   are we on? Is it to consume more stuff, trying  to make ourselves happy? No, the roots way beyond   that, what we're learning what with the invitation  from the universe is, we're learning how to live   in a living universe. Now that is an Infinite  Journey. That's an extraordinary journey,   learning to live in a living universe. And that's  what were we being called to do as we wake up and   grow up in this new world? >>Rick Archer: Yeah.   When you say the universe is alive, as you were  saying earlier, you know, I think of Okay, let's   take an example of something that appears not to  be alive like a rock. But if you actually look at   the rock microscopically enough, you know, you see  this marvelous, marvelous crystalline structure,   perhaps, and then you see things going on at  the chemical level at the molecular level,   that couldn't be random, or, you know, accidental,  no way. And that evidence, a level of intelligence   that's functioning in nature, that of  which a field of intelligence of which   laws of nature arises impulses, which govern  the functioning of everything, which orchestrate   the functioning of everything. So to me, every in  that sense, everything seems alive, the sidewalk,   you know, a tree, and everything that you can,  if you think about it, there's stuff going on,   in things that we take for granted. That  boggles the mind, if you actually could fully   perceive or appreciate what was happening. >>Duane Elgin: Indeed, I like to say that   and this comes out of physics as well. That  aliveness is both foundational and emergent.  >>Rick Archer: Yes. I... >>Duane Elgin: So at the foundation of existence   this universe emerged from a pinpoint about 14  billion years ago. A pinpoint smaller than an   atom, it burst into existence. And it now has  over 2 trillion galaxies, two trillion galaxies   each galaxy containing 100-billion or more star  systems. So here it is an extraordinary system   has emerged. At the foundation, some life force  was there to give it the burst of energy that   allowed it to flare forth into existence. And now  it continues to grow. And not only is it growing   materially, it's growing the fabric of space  time that holds it, this is a miracle, how it's   developing. So aliveness is both foundational  and emergent. So people like you, Rick, and me,   we are emergent beings that draw from the  larger liveness of the Living Universe. So   that when I say we're learning to live in a  living universe, that's an extraordinary journey.   Now, here's one way of appreciating the depth  of this is that science now understands,   even though there are 2 trillion galaxies out  there, there's an extraordinary distance between   here we are right now, to the magnitude of the  universe as a whole. But the physicists now say   there is more smallness within us, than there is  bigness beyond us. The universe is that we think,   'well, if I just go down to, you know, the  level of my skin and such, I'm getting down   to the basics of reality', no, there is more  smallness within and there is bigness beyond.   And, and we in this, the role of consciousness,  wake up, wake up to the depth, to the scope,   the reach the nature of the aliveness  that surrounds us, that gives birth to us,   and into which we are growing. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, there's some   cool movies that you can watch on YouTube,  people could check search for 'Powers of 10',   you see this, there's several different versions  where maybe it starts with somebody lying on a   picnic blanket or something, and it starts to  zoom out, and it just goes out and out and out by   powers of 10, to, you know, the limits of  the universe, and then it zooms in again,   and then it starts to go into the small by  powers of 10, deeper and deeper and deeper.   And as you just said, that goes in further to  in the small direction, then it went out in the   big direction is 10 to the larger number in the  small direction. So we're kind of in the middle.  >>Duane Elgin: Yes. >>Rick Archer: And, and in any case,   you know, things like that. I don't know I have  these conversations and debates with friends   who don't get this aliveness business or  this, you know, everything is permeated   with a swimming in an ocean of intelligence.  And I, to me, it seems so obvious, and we go   back and forth. It's kind of fun. But I think  it's a real handy way of looking at things.   Because like we said in the beginning, if you  think the universe is dead, then it's natural   to exploit it, use it up. And when we die, who  cares? Because we have we will cease to exist.   And good luck with the coming generations. But  you know, if you see it as live, then you know,   anything you do to it you're doing to a living  being. And you are intimately connected with that   living beings. So you're doing it to yourself. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. You said well,   we're sort of in the middle ground and indeed  we are physics says that we're a little bit more   than halfway up that ruler from the very large to  the very small. And in fact, we're giants in the   cosmic scale of things. So this is fascinating.  We're being transformed now by our own science   and our own knowledge. So I would like  to I'd like to go to another dimension   of uplift that's happening right now there are  many things there's the uplift of consciousness,   the uplift of reconciliation movements that are  happening around the world. But a third area of   uplift is what's happening for you and me right  now and it's using the tools of communication   to connect ourselves with one another in   ways that have never been possible before. >>Rick Archer: And because we're going to be   talking about the internet and stuff right? >>Duane Elgin: the internet Yes,  >>Rick Archer: Okay, before we launch  into that I just want to throw in  >>Duane Elgin: okay, yes, please >>Rick Archer: quote from the Katha Upanishad   Brahman, or the totality is described as  'Anoraniyan Mahato-mahiyan', which means it's,   it's smaller than the smallest and bigger than the  biggest. And that doesn't mean that it's really,   really small, or really, really big. It means that  It transcends spatial dimensions altogether. But   it's said to be that which contains the  whole universe like a drop in an ocean.  >>Duane Elgin: Yeah. >>Rick Archer:   And then the Upanishad keeps coming back to, and  'That thou art', that's what we are. So when we   refer to ourselves as being somewhere in the  middle size wise, we're referring to our bodies,   but we're not our bodies we are, we are Brahman,  we are the totality, living through a body. And   the mosquito is the totality, living through  a mosquito body, and so on and so forth. But   we can get to a stage in our development, where  we identify predominantly as that totality, and   secondarily as a limited being. And then we were  sort of a walking breathing universe. Anyway...  >>Duane Elgin: absolutely >>Rick Archer: Got that out.  >>Duane Elgin: Well said, Rick, thank you. >>Rick Archer: All right. You wanted   to get into the communications thing? >>Duane Elgin: Yeah. People say well, okay.   You know, the aliveness. And in my experience,  about half the people I encounter, say, 'Well,   of course, it's alive. How could it be otherwise,  look at the beauty in the in the architecture of   creation, and so on'. And I can be in a circle of  five or 10 people and not say anything, and then   pretty soon, someone's going to chime in and say,  'Well, it's, you're crazy. If you think this is   alive', of course, they will show me you know,'  it's just dead matter and empty space'. And, and   the conversation is so juicy, so generative,  because people that see and experience and   know the lives of say go for the walks in  nature, they take time to meditate and so on.   It's in your bones. We're we are that  aliveness, as you say so clearly, Rick,   so we're in the process now, of making that  transition from 'well you're crazy If you   think it's alive ' to ' no ' you're crazy if  you think it's not, if you think it's dead'.   So this is a wonderful time, I  think generative time to be alive.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And there's a number of  things we're going to still get into here.   But you were starting to suggest, you know, the  internet, we wouldn't be doing this right now,   you and I without the Internet. So the internet  is sort of a global nervous system of sorts. And,   you know, there are other ways in which we're  all connected. But this is one way in which we   can be connected visually, and audibly, and so  on. And it's obviously democratizing knowledge   and information. It's also enabling the spread  of a great deal of confusion and misinformation.   And that perhaps, that perhaps, fits into your  three themes that you've outlined in that video,   you know, that the internet can be used for  authoritarianism, it can be used for to sew   chaos, or it can be used to infuse, you  know, greater wisdom into the world. And   I guess it depends on what we choose to put  our attention on and to generate or create.  >>Duane Elgin: That's right. The tools of  communication are neutral, they can be used   in each of those three ways you just described  so well. And part of my work, over decades now   has been to look at both television and  the internet, and how that is transforming   how we relate to one another and the world. And  I'd like to just speak about for a minute here   about the internet, because it's an area that I'm  working with right now. And people say, 'well,   how can we come together as a human family? How  can we find one another as a human species and   come to a new consensus, a new consciousness?'  And I say, 'well, there we have the technologies,   the tools will help us achieve that'. And,  and I speak about the internet. But I want to   quote something from Dag Hammarskjold, who in the  1950s was a one of the main Secretary- Generals of   the United Nations. And he was asked, he said, >>Rick Archer: I think he was there when   Khrushchev pounded his shoe on the table was, >>Duane Elgin: I think, yes,   he well could have been >>Rick Archer: I remember that.  >>Duane Elgin: He was asked about the United  Nations 'why I hasn't done more?', you know,   'it just creates confusion and the kinds of issues  that we just spoke about here'. And he said,   the function of the United Nations as he  saw it, was not to take humanity to heaven,   but to save humanity from hell of our own making.  And here we are. We're In that situation right   now, I'm not saying the internet, it's going to  take us to a new heaven. But it could well save   us from going to a hell of our own making. And  well, how could you do that. And I pick up a   cell phone and I say to people, look, two thirds  of the people on this planet have one of these   in their hands, two thirds, by the end of this  decade, decade, it will be three quarters of the   people on the planet have one of these. And I say  you hold the future in your hands, because as soon   as you open up a browser, as soon as you open  up access to, let's say, a program like this,   you're opening up to the World Wide Web, as  it was originally called the 'World Wide Web',   and the potential connect with people around the  planet. Now, Rick, you and I both know that China   has its firewalls to keep people out, or  keep a lot of people in so does, Russia.   But more broadly, the internet connects with  people around the earth right now. And so we would   simply mobilize those tools of technology, we can  begin to achieve a new level of communication, and   consciousness. We're not separate beings, isolated  by geography anymore, or isolated necessarily by   society, like dictatorships and so on. Those  are leaky systems. And we can come together   as a species and find a new consciousness and  a new consensus about where we're going to go   from here. Can we find reconciliation, and  a sense of unity in our collective journey   that takes us into this extraordinary  possibility that while, we're living beings,   and we're learning to live in a living universe,  what an amazing invitation for evolution that is   surrounding us? And we have the tools right now,  if we will use these and something I'm exploring.   If we use these tools, we can begin to come  together as a human community. And we may not   reach a heaven, but we can avoid the hell  that's under this developing right now. So   this is a very practical way of moving and  integrating the evolution of consciousness   and the evolution of the very practical  dimensions that we know in our everyday lives.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And, you know, that's what  I'm doing. I guess with BatGap. I'm using the   internet to do this. And, you know, when I was a  snarky teenager, I used to sometimes say, well,   'freedom of the press belongs  to those who own one'. But   now everybody more or less owns one or if they >>Duane Elgin: you are now we own one.   Yes, you're doing it! >>Rick Archer: Yeah.   But as you say, it's a mixed blessing, because  anybody can put out anything. I mean, there's   been so much disinformation spreading around and  there was a big study recently by Harvard Brown,   Microsoft and Brigham and Women's Hospital  that showed that about 319,000 Americans   died, who wouldn't have if all eligible people  had gotten the COVID vaccine, but there was a   lot of misinformation spreading about which, you  know, dissuaded them from doing so. So that has   obviously lethal consequences. And, you know,  then there's this whole these issues about well,   should Twitter, you know, shut down somebody's  account for saying things that might harm people?   Or should Facebook censor posts and at all? And  do they have the right to do that? I mean, these   are issues that we're grappling with, I think,  as we learn how to use this tool, and you know,   have it be not so much a mixed blessing. >>Duane Elgin: Well, we hold a future in   our hands. So right now is corporate America  that's telling us how to use the tool. And what   I'm suggesting is that we can become empowered in  ways we hadn't imagined until recently. If we come   together as a species. That's a new superpower  for the future. And then I in my estimation,   the next great superpower will not be China or a  collecting collection of nations. The next great   superpower will be us as ordinary individuals  around the Earth, that come together and use the   internet, in particular, as a tool of collective  communication and consciousness and we begin we   begin to speak the future that we want together. >>Rick Archer: Yeah,  >>Duane Elgin: so we're on the verge of that >>Rick Archer: Are these things as you   refer? Sorry to people who were saying the  things that you and I are trying to say today.   Because as a species, we say many things, and  we were many minds. And here, just in the United   States alone, there's tremendous polarization  and conflict over so many different issues.   So maybe it's sort of 'May the best man win' kind  of scenario. Like you said, with your arrows,   you know, it could go this way, or it could  go that way. And so, and the very tool that   we're using to have this conversation could  be used to impose greater authoritarianism or,   or the tool could become completely inoperable,  if the enough chaos takes place. All the various   servers could start breaking down due to  electrical outages and, and things and then we   then will really be out of touch with one another. >>Duane Elgin: Yes, that's right. The internet was   designed, as you know, to in the case of  nuclear war, there would be workarounds.   So even if one area was shattered, and in  ruins, there would be ways to get workaround   so we still could communicate with one another.  And that is really a part of my hope is that there   are workarounds to allow us to come together  as a human family. And what will prevail will   be the consciousness, the compassion,  the aliveness, the sense of possibility   that we're working for as a, as a species. >>Rick Archer: There's a Vedic saying,   which is kind of encouraging, which is that,  'that which is closest to truth last longest'.   So if that's true, you know, then what was it  Martin Luther King said that the 'arc of the moral   universe is long, but it bends towards justice'.  Yes. So sometimes in dire predicaments, we've,   we may feel that all hope is lost, and that, you  know, we're all going to hell in a handbasket. But   if quotes like that, are hold merit,  then, you know, in the big picture,   in the long run, things are going to work out. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. So I feel we're gonna   make we can do this. That's the key thing that I  said, if people would say there's 'we're doomed'.   They're global surveys that have been done.  And they found that young people 18 to 25 56%,   say, 'we are doomed as a species', they've given  up. And I'm saying, 'don't give up, as we're just   getting started moving into our early adulthood  as a human family'. So it's time to step up.   And move ahead, use these tools of transformation,  work into the heartfelt aliveness that we each   carry into the world, bring that into the world as  a transforming capacity. So if we mobilize these   capacities, both invisible and visible, we have  a future an extraordinary future ahead of us'.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Here's a quote from your book  from Martin Luther King, Jr. He said that, 'to   realize justice in human affairs, injustice must  be exposed with all of the tension its exposure   creates, to the light of human conscience and the  air of National Opinion before it can be cured.  >>Duane Elgin: Yes. >>Rick Archer: So a lot of times when,   you know, various scandals break, or, you know,  corruption is exposed and things like that,   you know, it's, it's a good thing, I  think. Go ahead and comment on that.   Groaning over here, because I'm talking so much. >>Duane Elgin: I'm enjoying the conversation;   we have to tell the truth. The first thing  we have to do, if we're going to be in a   transformational process, we have to tell the  truth about what's going on. And there's a lot of   distortion and lies about the nature of what  is happening. But nonetheless, we have to keep   telling the truth, telling the truth. And with  that, we can come to a new level of understanding   and acceptance. And with the acceptance  comes the potential for reconciliation,   the rich and the poor, the gender reconciliation,  reconciliation, the costs across race and   ethnicity, geography and so on, future generations  versus current generations. I mean, look at Greta   Thunberg. She is saying 'you're consuming  it all right now you're not going to leave   anything for the younger generation'. So we have  to bring these issues into the healing light   of public awareness before they can be accepted  and then transformed, and then we can move on   into our early adulthood as a as a human family. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, I remember who was it Chuck   Todd was talking to Kellyanne Conway? Then he  said something about well, these are facts of   the matter. And she said 'Well, here's some  alternative facts'. And he 'said wait a minute,   alternative facts? What are you talking about?'  So you know, when you say, 'tell the truth',   obviously people have different views on what that  is. But there's another Vedic Science Vedic quote,   which is nice here, which is that 'Satyameva  Jayate', which means' truth alone is victorious'.   And again, it's one of those 'eventually'  kind of things, but hopefully in the   'Frodo wins the day'. >>Duane Elgin: Yes.   This has been a delightful  conversation. I've appreciated your,   the wisdom you're bringing into this  from your life experience. So there's,   this is really a pleasure to talk with you. >>Rick Archer: Good and we have more to   go through to if you have time,  right. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So um,   when, when terrible things happen, like, let's  say Russia and invades Ukraine. And now and we   know how rough that's been. And now we're going  to see famines because the wheat supply has been   shut down. That was 30% of the world's wheat  right there. That's obviously some of the   turbulence that you illustrated in your  diagram. Do you see a silver lining somehow?   Do you feel like okay, we're going through  this, this, this difficulty, but somehow,   in going through this, we're going to wise up,  and things will be better? Maybe, maybe Putin will   disappear, and Russia will become a more  enlightened place? And we'll all get   along? And that kind of thing? I don't know. >>Duane Elgin: What Well, I think we're going   to go through an absolutely devastating  time. In the decades ahead, I really do.   Right now we have nearly 8 billion people  on the earth. And scientists estimate,   the carrying capacity of the Earth is roughly 2  billion people living in middle class European   lifestyles, 2 billion people. >>Rick Archer: Explained what   carrying capacity means >>Duane Elgin: The carrying   capacity means that the regenerative  ability of the land and the oceans   to year by year, can grow the food  grow and have the fish and so on.   It can support roughly 2 billion people. >>Rick Archer: When did we last   have 2 billion people on the planet? >>Duane Elgin: Well, when I when I was born, there   was just a little over 2 billion people. So in the  space of one lifetime, we have gone from roughly   2 billion, and we're approaching 8 billion the  estimates are by the end of the of the century,   we're going to be approaching 10 billion people. >>Rick Archer: And so we don't draining our   bank account, our resource bank account for the >>Duane Elgin: Well said we're draining the bank   account; they were over drawing on what the what  the generative capacity of the Earth can create.   So if you think about that, I just cannot  imagine the possibility that something like   6,7,8 billion people might die off  in this century. How can that be?   Well, famine and disease, we're seeing pandemics  now beginning to grow. And as the world heats up,   as the global warming continues, it's  releasing new toxins, new viruses into the   atmosphere, and so on. And I think we're  going to have just a plague of pandemics,   we're going to have extraordinary amount of  disease and extraordinary amount of famine,   every degree centigrade that the earth heats  up 15% lower productivity of the land. And if   we go up by three degrees centigrade, that's a 45%  degree decrease in the productivity of agriculture   on the earth. We can't feed ourselves hardly right  now, what happens if there's an enormous cutback   in productivity at the same time, there's still  a growing increase in the number of people.   We're in for an extraordinary time of  correction, if you will, where we as a species   matched the resources of the Earth and it's  regenerative capacity. So we and so then what?  >>Rick Archer: And what happens if sea levels  rise a couple of feet and all the world's coastal   cities have to be evacuated? You have hundreds  of millions of people trying to go somewhere?  >>Duane Elgin: That's right >>Rick Archer: in the   middle of droughts and famines. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. There's roughly   3 billion people live around the equatorial  regions of the planet. And those equatorial   regions are going to become increasingly  uninhabitable, uninhabitable. In Pakistan   there are temperatures rare regular reaching 120  degrees Fahrenheit 120 degrees. Now that's at the   very margins of what people can tolerate >>Rick Archer: no doubt New Delhi   has been like that in recent months. >>Duane Elgin: Yes. So we're already approaching   portions of the earth becoming uninhabitable.  And then people are going to start migrating   to the more resource favored and climate favored  portions of the earth. Now, it only took a million   people to destabilize Europe, the movement of  million people into Europe, it has been profoundly   destabilizing of the civic structures and so on.  What happens when there's not 1 million but 3   billion people moving north and south to more  resource and climate favored regions? That's   what you're talking about. And that's what we're  going to be we're going to start experiencing that   very, very soon. It's already underway as  a trickle, it's going to turn into a rush.   But then you as well, while people say,  Well, look, we're doomed? Well, no,   we need to look at how we learn.  And trauma is our teacher,   the sorrow, the grief, the loss of these years,  that's our teacher, we're doing this to ourselves.   No one came and impose this upon us. But rather,  we have created these conditions ourselves.   And we have the capacity I feel to unravel these  circumstances and move into a more habitable   relationship with the earth, and  with the wellbeing of all life.  >>Rick Archer: Let's think of some traumas  and what we've learned from them. And we have,   let's say, the Civil War, World War One, the  Great Depression, World War Two. Did we learn?   I mean, maybe we did. I mean, obviously, the  racial situation is much better today than it was   prior to the Civil War. We, then then we  had World War Two, now we get along with   Germany and Japan. But then we have a whole  lot of nuclear weapons we didn't have before.   And fortunately, those seven, so I'm just  wondering, to what, how many steps forward?   Are we taking for every few steps backward? >>Duane Elgin: You, that that's right.   Well, various things. Think about this gender  equality, we have awakened to the role of   women on the earth. And person, a researcher after  research is saying, if we want to habitable Earth,   we need to empower women, they need to be given  the opportunity of education and participation,   and affairs of the world of life. And that is  beginning to happen, a transformation that's been   really 1000s of years in the making is now  happening in this generation. So there's an   immense transformation and learning  that has been underway. The same is   'Black Lives Matter', for example, we're beginning  to take seriously that that the white population,   the men like ourselves, white men are going to be  in a minority soon. And we need to learn to accept   and work with a reality, a racial diversity,  ethnic diversity, gender, diversity, and so   on. And we're beginning to do that. So it isn't a  done deal. And as, as Hammarskjold said, about the   United Nations, he was not expecting to create a  heaven on earth, but to avoid creating a hell on   earth. And if we can do that, if we can work  our way through this time of extraordinary   challenge and difficulty and see it as a  maturing experience for the whole human family,   I think we have a promising future ahead of us. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And I guess we're sort of   doing it. I mean, it's always by fits and starts,  and they're always people digging their heels in   and resisting every little bit of change. >>Duane Elgin: Sure,  >>Rick Archer: But, you know, somehow  rather, we do seem to be progressing.   I'm not really familiar with the work of Steven  Pinker, but I've often heard him quoted as   itemizing all these really good things that we've  got going for us now that we didn't in the past,   you know, so, I mean, it can seem pretty  depressing and dire when you watch the   news and stuff, but many things are better. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. It's an open system.   It's there's potential here there's possibility.  And a lot of people like I just mentioned the   56% of youth on the planet, saying we're  doomed. Well, here, let's open this up,   and move beyond materialism, materialism, and  because Tourism of Western society and see the   world freshly with new eyes. And recognize that  if we're learning to live in a living universe,   that's an entirely new and different journey  that we have been on in the past. So we,   if we're going to be successful, we need to  reframe, I think how we understand what we're   doing here and where we are, what who we are  as bio cosmic beings, and where we're going,   we're learning to live in a living universe. >>Rick Archer: One thing I liked about your book   is that as you went through the coming decades  and sketched out what might possibly happen on in   these decades, you know, on the one hand, there  was this, you know, collapse and breakdown taking   place, and all the dire details of that. But  at the same time you weave into those chapters,   good things that would be happening as people  kind of woke up more and more and hopefully   counterbalanced as the yellow arrows from your  diagram. And you have a whole section in your   book about seven uplifting forces. And at  some point in our conversation, perhaps   we should go through those to, you know, break  the bummer mood that we might be creating here.  >>Duane Elgin: Well, this is it, I mean, this,  let's get serious here. How challenging and how   critical our situation is, it's not a time  for complacency, it's a time to step up   and be in the in the in the transformational  process itself, and as hard to do without seeing   the uplift potential that surrounds us. And those  uplift factors. By the way, let me just mention,   the book 'Choosing Earth' is available  online, for free. And our situation is so dire   I've said, look, I'll just make this available  for free, as a PDF, something that everyone can   print out for themselves, if they >>Rick Archer: make sure to   link to that on your BatGap page. >>Duane Elgin: Yeah, good. I'll do   that. So the you mentioned the what are these  uplifting factors? for heaven sakes? Well,   we've already spoken about a  number of them. First of all,   aliveness, recognizing that what we're seeking is  the direct experience of being alive. And that is   something that's free. It's already present,  it's already there and available to us.  >>Rick Archer: And before you skim  through them, I want to comment on  >>Duane Elgin: Okay >>Rick Archer: some of them.   For instance, aliveness, one thing I always  experienced with my meditation practice was from   the time I learned it, was that I felt like after  each I felt like as I was doing it, I was being   infused with more aliveness, >>Duane Elgin: yes,  >>Rick Archer: and, and I could just feel my brain  waking up in my body kind of being refreshed and   regenerated. And then when I would come back into  activity, I felt like I had greater resources with   which to infuse more of that aliveness into my  life or into my environment. It's kind of like, I   don't know, to use a simple analogy, if you wanted  to go shopping, and you didn't have any money in   your pockets, you wouldn't be very productive.  But if you go to the bank first and withdraw   some resources, then you can shop. So I felt like  I was dipping into my inner resources, and then   being more successful in the marketplace of life. >>Duane Elgin: Yes. Golly, That's it. Thank you.   I like that. Okay, so there's one. I mean,  it's, it's all around us, it's within us.   And it's available to us. And we need to  recognize that and as you say, just bring it in,   bring it down, bring it through. So >>Rick Archer: we all do have and I'm   just talking about myself here, we all do have an   unlimited reservoir of potential deep  within and we all have the capacity to tap   into it. We just have to find out how. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. That's right,   we have to find out how and we have to recognize  this there, and then begin our exploration and   discovery. And that's a that's an inside job or  we're call to do for ourselves and for the world.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, if you think about  a forest, for instance, like let's say the Amazon   rainforest, it's green and verdant by virtue of  the fact that all the plants are rooted in this   very fertile soil, and they get plenty of rain  and stuff, so it's not and if it were looking   not so green wouldn't help to spray paint it  green or we'd have to improve its ability to   draw nourishment, each individual plant's ability  to draw nourishment from its through its roots.   And so like that, you know, all as many of us as  possible on this earth as many humans as possible,   need to learn how to draw forth that inner  nourishment, and then the whole forest if   humanity will look more green, >>Duane Elgin: That's right.  >>Rick Archer: (To) Use the analogy. >>Duane Elgin: That's right.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. >>Duane Elgin: So, other upload factors,   mentioning just a few. The next one up on  my list is consciousness. And we've been   speaking about consciousness throughout. And  there's thinking consciousness where we think   that who we are is what we think. And we've been  living in thinking consciousness for a long while.   And you and I are now talking about a reflective  consciousness, where we're we have the ability to   look back and see ourselves. And one of the keys  under understandings I like to share with people   is who our named as a species. We think we're Homo  sapiens, actually, the technical name of who we   are, is 'Homo Sapiens Sapiens'. Now, to be sapient  means to be wise or knowing. And to be Homo   Sapiens Sapiens means to be doubly wise, you're  doubly knowing, not only to know that we're here,   but know that we know. And American Indians, they  have three miracles, that they often speak about   or they do speak about, the first miracle is  that there's anything here at all. And we we've   talked about this, the living universe, the first  miracle, if the is that the universe is here at   all. The second miracle is that there are living  things here, plants and animals, and we can see   the life around us, you were just speaking about  that. The third miracle is the recognition that we   know we are here, not only we see we're here, but  we know that we know that we're here. And knowing   that we know is anchoring, it brings that capacity  for recognition and therefore action within us. So   that's an extraordinary capacity. And it  moves beyond just a reflective consciousness   into a more compassionate engagement with life,  where our life, we feel it in the context of   meeting others. And that's a compassionate  consciousness. So consciousness evolves as   we evolve in our understanding of that. And I'm  sure I'm sure Rick, as a teacher of consciousness,   you have things you want to add right here? >>Rick Archer: Well, as you're saying that   I was thinking what Jesus said on the cross,'  forgive them father, they know not what they   do'. So the guys who are nailing him on the cross,  he could see that they weren't really conscious,   the implications of what they were doing. And you  could perhaps extend that out to Vladimir Putin or   Bolsonaro burning down the rainforest are  people doing these horrible, destructive   short-sighted things, they are just shut down  in their consciousness, they are operating   out of such a limited perspective. They don't  know what they're doing. And remember, Europe,   offered Bolsonaro a whole lot of money  to stop burning down the rainforest. And,   and he said, 'nah plant more trees  in your own continent, you know,   we're just kind of mind our own business  here'. So there's a stupidity and a numbness,   ignorance that prevails so often. >>Duane Elgin: So that consciousness is critical.   It's critical to move beyond the thinking  consciousness into the reflective consciousness,   that says, let me look at this freshly recognizing  I'm a part of a larger system of aliveness.   And that's transformative. And you're speaking  about that, so directly. So mentioning other  >>Rick Archer: choosing communication, >>Duane Elgin: uplifting factor. So we saw the   power of aliveness, the power of consciousness.  The third one is the is the power of communication   and it's phenomenal. I feel that if we  look at human evolution, it was our ability   to communicate the Goddess from a weakening  of hunter gatherers roughly 10,000 years ago,   at the end of the last ice age, to the verge of  a planetary civilization today. We communicate,   communicate, communicate, and at each stage, we  have grown we've expanded our sphere of connection   with the rest of life with one another. And here  we are, at the edge of a planetary civilization.   We're not really there yet. But we have the  tools of communication that the internet and such   that can take us over and into  our understanding that we are here   together and we can communicate together and we  can choose together our pathway into the future.   And that's why it is 'Choosing Earth', we can  do this, we can 'Choose' the earth as our home.   And so there's the third great uplifting factor. >>Rick Archer: And on that one, obviously,   it's more than just the technological means to  communicate, we've got that pretty good shape now.   But it's having the somehow the wisdom to be able  to understand and connect with each other. And,   you know, have you ever noticed that my wife and I  often talk about this, you're talking to somebody,   maybe even a friend, and they're going on  and on and on and on and about themselves?   And, and then finally, you know, you try to say  something about what's going on your life and say,   'well, it's getting late. Gotta go'.  It's like that old saying, you know,   'me, me, me. Okay, enough about  me? What do you think about me?'   So, I don't know, somehow we have to some somehow  be more interested in each other and more kind of   interested in understanding what makes the other  person tick. You know, what's their perspective?   Okay. Let's say I have certain feelings about  gun control. Okay, why don't people who feel   so differently than I feel the way they do? And  is there some kind of bridge that we could meet at   to actually communicate about the issue? And  there are some kind of interesting organizations   and movements attempting to do just that. You  know, there's this black guy who is actually   made a career of collecting Ku Klux Klan robes  by befriending the people and then kind of   communicating with them human to human and  getting convincing them to leave the Ku Klux Klan.   That's just one example. But we need more of that. >>Duane Elgin: Yes. Well, curiosity and   consciousness go together. In  my estimation, if you're really   awake to the world, it becomes a magical place.  It's an interesting place. It isn't all figured   out. No is just alive. It's happening.  It's real. And then curiosity. Well,   who are you that you are here doing what  you and how is that happening? Let's look   at the architecture of this living system, the  universe that we inhabit. So curiosity is a key   part of that. And so thanks for bringing that >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And perhaps that rests   upon the first two points, awareness or  aliveness and unconsciousness, you know,   if you're more alive, more conscious,  then you have that greater curiosity.  >>Duane Elgin: That's right, >>Rick Archer: and more passionate about   being communicative and so on. >>Duane Elgin: That's right.   All right. So the next one, on the list here  is maturity, we've been talking about maturity,   we have to grow up as a species, move beyond our  adolescent behaviors, and, and mindset and into.   Well, with maturity, one thing I love  to acknowledge with maturity is freedom.   There's there certainly responsibilities  when you become an adult, if you will,   work responsibilities, family responsibilities,  and so on. But there is freedom as an adult,   that is not present when we're adolescents. And  adolescents are pushing on the edges. Give me the   freedom giving me the freedom, but I there has to  be balanced with responsibilities as well. And but   we are moving into a world of new freedoms that we  have yet to really begin to explore. So that's a   part of maturation that I really appreciate. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, and freedom requires   maturity, because if you if you're not  mature, and you have too much freedom,   then you end up creating all kinds  of harm. I mean, we're looking yeah  >>Rick Archer: like 18-year-olds  who are free to buy AR 15, AR 14s,   or whatever they call those guns >>Duane Elgin: AR 15s  >>Rick Archer: 15s, Yeah. And then you try  to change something about that, and 'you're   challenging our freedoms'. >>Duane Elgin: That's right  >>Rick Archer: How about, you could  get me going on that topic. But   I mean, there's also a little thing in the  Bill of Rights about the right to life,   liberty and the pursuit of happiness, how about  those freedoms? It's a little bit hard to exercise   those if you're, if you've been shot. >>Duane Elgin: Yeah. Yeah.   All right. The next one Rick,   we'll work into this the next uplifting  factor is beyond maturity, is reconciliation,   to have the maturity to see the integrity of life  and the right to life. That way It surrounds us   that not only other people have the right to  their life that transcends ethnicity and race,   gender, income and so on. We all have this  aliveness within us and reconciling ourselves to   living in a in a world filled with different  expressions of aliveness. Not only human   aliveness, but the aliveness of plants and  animals. And, and, and the whole cosmic system.   That's an extraordinary challenge. But it's  an extraordinary opportunity to for uplift,   to take us into a new future possibility. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, there's another nice Vedic   saying, and that one, it's Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam,  I think it's pronounced which is 'the world is my   family'. And, you know, very, I think very few  people view the world as their family. But we're   all you know, to quote Buckminster Fuller,  we're all passengers on spaceship Earth. And   we've got to reconcile in order not to, you know, >>Duane Elgin: yes,  >>Rick Archer: destroy the space,  the only spaceship we have.   That's right. I saw him speak, incidentally,  back in 1971, it was a great opportunity.   And let's, let's hit a little  bit more on reconciliation.  >>Duane Elgin: Okay. >>Rick Archer: With climate change,   in particular, aside from all the other problems  that we can consider, there is no agreement that   it even exists in the US Congress. About half  the half the politicians there won't admit that   it does or that it's a serious problem.  So it I mean, if you were, let's say,   what would you call it a counselor, the consultant  to, to Washington, which I guess you have that in   certain eons of your life? How would you  attempt to achieve some kind of realistic   reconciliation, so we could get everybody on  board with that particular issue? For instance?  >>Duane Elgin: Well, well, um, I worked on a  presidential commission in the early 1970s.   It was on population growth on the American  future. And it was looking not only at the   growth, but also then the urbanization of  American society over the next 30 years.   And while on that commission, I wrote a paper  as a staff member for the commission members,   and it was titled 'The poverty of our abundance'.  And it was the idea was, what are we doing with a   wealth that we have over the next three decades?  Can we re-envision how to use her abundance in   more creative and compassionate ways? And I  thought this was a great idea. But the senior   leaders of the commission felt otherwise and  they wanted to fire me. And but they couldn't,   given government laws, and they just pushed  me aside, basically, kept me out of the   deliberative process. No, I learned some things  there. You don't push on a system like that.   What we can do, though, is recontextualize it. And  that's where the power of communication comes in.   And is happening right now. Where people say,  well, you a third may say, well, is hoax, to think   that is a big hoax to think that there's anything  like climate change. And the other two thirds   says you're wrong. This is an extremely important  and identifiable and research possibility. And so   the context, the political context changes. So my  approach is to say,' work at the periphery, create   a new context of understanding', that is something  that we can do. Whereas if we go right into the,   into the heart of the beast into the political  process itself, that's really pushing against   something that's going to push back politically,  and it's going to be hard to get traction.   So that takes us then back to communication. Can  we communicate our way into a transforming future,   creating a new context of understanding and  consensus that will then permeate the political   apparatus and give us a new pathway ahead. >>Rick Archer: Upton, Upton Sinclair said   you can't get a man to understand something if his  salary depends upon his 'not' understanding it.   I think that applies to politicians whose cash  flow which they have to spend a good portion of   their time trying to raise depends upon agreeing  with the fossil fuel industry, or earlier on it   was the tobacco industry and so on. >>Duane Elgin: Yes. No, No, that's,   I experienced that directly. Very, very directly. >>Rick Archer: But I think in their heart of   hearts, they do understand it. I'm a little  cynical in that regard. And they're just   corrupt enough to talk the talk that they need  to talk, even though they realize they're lying.  >>Duane Elgin: You know, the I had the opportunity  to do a study for the President's Science Advisor,   this is an in the mid-1970s. And they asked  us, we want a fresh view of the future,   don't tell us what we already know, we know we  have population problems, even energy problems,   and so on, tell us what we don't know.  'What is going to happen in the future   that could wipe us out from the blind side?'  And a number of things were offered up to the   President's Science Advisor, and this yearlong  study. And among them was climate change, and,   and bless their hearts. They said, 'well,  we just we see this as happening, of course,   but it's going to be 40 or so years, maybe even 50  years before, it's going to have a major impact.   So there's so far into the future, we don't  have to worry about it now'. Okay, now, 40 years   after the mid-1970s is now here we are, isn't  it's finally happened. And I've been watching   decade by decade, just want to see these things  happening, and that, that are beginning to wipe   us out from the blind side because we weren't  paying attention. And the political apparatus   is so focused on this short-term political  agenda is not stepping back to look at the   world as a whole system, and to pay attention at  that scale. So we're seeing the consequences of a   lack of consciousness as a lack of courage to take  what we already see and stick with it. Not only   like the American Indians, seven  generations into the future,   pay attention seven generations ahead. Well, this  is pay attention one generation ahead. And we   weren't doing it, and now we're experiencing  the consequences of that lack of conscious   attention. So this is what I'm hopefully  hopeful that we're learning here, Rick.   I'm hopeful >>Rick Archer: Patanjali has a phrase in   the Yoga Sutras, which is avert the danger which  has not yet come. And, you know, 40 years ago,   it's like changing the course of a river. You  know, if you wait till the river gets to the,   to the mouth, you know, to the ocean,  it's too late to do anything about the   course of it. But if you can go back to the  very source of the river, you know, perhaps some   little thing could change it off in a different  direction, because this is just an analogy, and   it probably wouldn't work that way. But no, no, >>Duane Elgin: no, that is how it works.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah, >>Duane Elgin: that is how   it works. So we need to make these what seemingly  small course corrections right now, like the food   that we eat, shift towards a more vegetarian  diet, the clothes that we wear, I've been   wearing the same shirt a decade, or more. Now, >>Rick Archer: I hope you've been washing it.  >>Duane Elgin: is time is time for water. >>Rick Archer: I don't want to wastewater. But  >>Duane Elgin: that's right. Got to be careful  here, not too often. The transportation we use, I   gave up my car, and so on. It's all up for grabs.  And if we the car, the food, the clothing as our,   if we make these small changes, they add  up. And if we're all doing that together,   what's' small little rivers' become  a huge ocean of transformation.   And so that's what I'm hopeful for. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. But now unfortunately,   the changes have to be much more radical, because  we've waited too long. I just watched this whole   FRONTLINE documentary about the three-part thing  and it was all about how Exxon had this research   group in the 1970s. And they the research group  said, 'Well, climate change is coming. It could be   catastrophic. We've got to do something'. So they  started thinking about alternative energies. And   then then some executives came in and just shut  that down and got rid of that research group and   again, spending millions of dollars  to create obfuscation and doubt about  >>Duane Elgin: That's right, >>Rick Archer: climate change instead   of actually doing something. That's right.  And now we're in the pickle that we're in.  >>Duane Elgin: That's right. And not  just Exxon, but Shell and other major  >>Rick Archer: all of them >>Duane Elgin: Yeah, they all were obfuscating   and distorting and now we're paying the price  of The need for radical change in this decade.  >>Rick Archer: Some people say they should be held  accountable the way that tobacco companies have   billions of dollars, although, you  know, the tobacco companies couldn't   bring back all the people who died. And I  don't think that the oil companies could   eliminate all the damage that's happened. >>Duane Elgin: Because right,   that's right. Yeah. That's right. No,  no, Rick, this is where this is the   uplift section we're working. >>Rick Archer: Oh, yes. uplift   okay. Need to take a happy pill. >>Duane Elgin: The next one,   if you're ready for it is community,  community, community. We're living in such   fragmented, separate isolated ways. So  many people have their apartment or house.   And as they're living alone, they're not  connected with her neighbors and so on.   I'm living right now my wife and I are living in  a in a cohousing community here in California.   And that's a community of 60 people, roughly 30  units, 60 people. And we had we have common meals,   typically two or three days a week, we eat  together, we work on the landscaping together,   we have a garden that grows a lot of the  food that we use, we have a woodworking shop,   we have a common house where we can gather  together we have a place for kids to play,   and so on. And so it's an integrated eco village  kind of setting. And what we're learning are   insights that could be transported to the world  at large, the whole world could be an eco-village,   the whole thing could be an eco-village, and  are where we have all of these small gatherings   of people and properties. And they have a high  degree of self-reliance and self-sufficiency.   So there's resilience at the local level, but then  it grows out and builds out to the more regional   and then global scale. So community, new kinds  of community are critical I feel to our future.  >>Rick Archer: And if you went to the  Bioneers Conference, for instance,   you'd see that there are hundreds and hundreds  and hundreds of organizations and initiatives and   things that are going on that don't make the news.  And it's kind of inspiring to see all that. So   there are things happening all over the world. >>Duane Elgin: That's right.   There, invisible revolutions underway, as you  suggest all around the world. And we have yet   to upload those into our collective consciousness.  So we can choose effectively new pathways ahead.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. You know, earlier,  we were talking about phase transitions,   and how they are opportunities for  change, because everything is in flux.   And one thing about phase transitions  is that often you don't see them coming.   Like even the simple example is the boiling of  water, it can be 99 degrees Celsius and doesn't   look like anything much is happening.  And one more degree and it's boiling.   Yes. So we never know how close we might be as a  society as a society to certain abrupt changes.  >>Duane Elgin: Great example. I think  we're getting close, Rick, I've been   watching this develop, as I said for about a half  century and, boy, it at a feeling level, there's   a thinking level, I've done tremendous amounts  of research. But as I speak with people around   the community here, and really through the  internet now, around the planet. I've just   seen the agitation, and a concern, the stress,  the awareness, that's awakening, I think we're   approaching that place of collect the collective  boiling point into a new configuration or the   possibility of a new configuration for humanity. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, I think so too. I mean,   look what's just been happening in the  last I mean, COVID was a big upset and   talk about choosing simplicity. It was it was  imposed on a lot of people. And they all went   nuts, you know, wanting to have their movies and  their travel and their restaurants and all this   stuff that people are used to. But now we're,  I mean, supply chains are breaking down and   know if they can be gotten back together  properly. Jamie Dimon and Elon Musk both   said within last few days that we're on the  brink of some kind of economic hurricane,  >>Duane Elgin: hurricane. Yes. >>Rick Archer:   So there seems to be something coming. >>Duane Elgin: I think what I've suggested   in the scenarios that I presented earlier,  is that we're in a time of unraveling now,   things are breaking down, they're coming apart.  And if things unravel enough, they come apart   enough, well, then there's not enough to hold  the whole thing together. And if it can't hold,   it falls. And if we are in tremendous overshoot   far beyond what's the carrying capacity  of the Earth, it won't be just a small   decline, it will be a great fall I feel that's  what's coming for us. Probably hmm by the decade   of the 2030s, maybe sooner. But we're going  to go from a time of unraveling to a time of   severe breakdown, a great fall, and then the  deep collapse of civilization on the earth.   And it's that's predictable I feel. And we  can anticipate that and work with that and   move through that. And that brings us really, in  some ways to this last uplifting factor, which is   simplicity, simplicity of living. And we already  spoke about aliveness. And if we feel alive,   making music, sharing food with one another, being  in relationship with it with a loving and caring   community, and so on. Being in nature, all these  things are free, essentially free, or simple.   Now, is that regress or progress? Well, I go to  Arnold Toynbee, this extraordinary historian,   wrote volume after volume  on the history of the world.   And he finally summarized these volumes of  research and understanding in one principle.   And he called it the 'law of progressive  simplification', the law of progressive   simplification. And he said, the measure  of maturity and advance in a civilization   is expressed in its ability to simplify the  material aspects of life and give more energy   and attention to the non-material aspects of  life, the ones that were just speaking about.   So if we can advance reconciliation, and the  humanities and so on, so if we can shift from   a focus on materialism and consumerism, and  into with simplicity, choiceful simplicity,   advancing our appreciation of these other  dimensions of life than non-material,   that is a measure of a civilizations growth. >>Rick Archer: Yeah, if we can, that I guess it's   the big if, because by Toynbee's definition, we're  not living in we're not a very mature society,   because we are extremely complex. And we have,  you know, hugely complex systems of supply,   you know, just- in- time supply chains and all  that stuff, I mean, baby formula has been big in   the news recently, because a factory had to be  shut down. And Michigan because it wasn't up to   code or something. And all of a sudden, there's  this big shortage of baby formula. And they're   trying to fly it in from Zurich. And you know,  so there's so many things like that. I mean,   if there were a huge solar flare, it could burn  out all the Transformers in the electrical grid.   And we don't have backup transformers because  no one has thought that we ought to have them   on hand. And we wouldn't have the means to create  transformers if we had no electricity. So there   are a lot of things like that that are very, you  know, that we're very dependent upon that so far,   we've been lucky. But you know, there are a  number of things that could just go wrong,   and then the dominoes would topple. >>Duane Elgin: Rick, we're talking uplift here.  >>Rick Archer: Oh, yeah. You kept reminding me? >>Duane Elgin: Oh, yes. Yeah.  >>Rick Archer: The question is, is it gonna be  forced simplicity, or voluntary simplicity and a  >>Duane Elgin: voluntary, >>Rick Archer: if it's forced simplicity,   because things have broken down, then there's  going to be all this mayhem, that you've talked   about in the billions of people struggling, dying,  and so on. But if we can sort of move shift to it   more voluntarily, then we can avert a lot of that. >>Duane Elgin: That's right, yeah, that's right. I   think you're absolutely correct. I want to affirm  what you were saying that we run out of time.   There's no time left, the time to adapt is  now and it's we should have been way into this   process earlier. So we're not going to  have the luxury of voluntary simplicity.   There's going to be a lot of enforced simplicity,  as you're suggesting. And it's going to be a rough   initiation. It's going to be a rough ride for the  human family. But that's the nature of initiation   and the pain, the loss, the sorrow, the grief.  Those are traumas that will teach us. And we're   going to learn the hard way. How to live in this,  this new world of limitation. And simplicity is   going to be a key factor in that learning. >>Rick Archer: Yeah.   And I mean, there are people like yourself  who are doing it voluntarily. But again,   if we look to Washington, they're still  tinkering and denying, and so on. So,   I mean, I guess it's just gonna  get to the point where things will   be forced because they haven't been chosen. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. That's right. So   this is a, as I said, this is going to be a  rough road is going to be a rough ride, it's   going to be a challenging initiation we're going  through already, we're beginning the process right   now as a species, but it's just getting started. >>Rick Archer: Yeah. And I guess at this point,   people might be thinking, well, what can I do?  What can I do? And I would say, first of all,   go back to that, quote, you know, that  Maharishi said, on the boat ride in 1974,   hold on to the self. If, by  whatever means you understand that,   to you know, somehow know thyself, reach  that reach some stage of spiritual awakening,   stabilize it, integrate it, and then you'll  be better equipped to get through whatever   we have. We have to get through. >>Duane Elgin: Yes. Yes,   become a full Homo Sapien Sapien know that,  you know, find that place of knowing within   and know that knowing connects with the aliveness  of the Living Universe grow on that, yes.  >>Rick Archer: And then what else would  you prescribe? You've just prescribed   seven different things, communications and  maturity and reconciliation and all that. But,   you know, what, what practical, let's say, two  or three immediate practical steps that people   listening to this could take that would move  them in the direction of greater preparedness   for what what's coming down the pike? >>Duane Elgin: You know? Well,   I've mentioned these already. They're very,  very practical. It's the food that we eat.   And the shift towards a more vegetarian diet  is just widespread now in the country, in and   around the world. So it's a food that we eat. >>Rick Archer: I have a new friend and Israel and   she said that about the Tel Aviv is one of the  most vegan cities on the planet. It's like, kind   of almost the norm over there for some reason. >>Duane Elgin: Yes, that's right. So the good   point is a new normal. >>Rick Archer: Yeah,  >>Duane Elgin: there's a new normal emerging in  the food that we eat is one of the new normals.   And our food supply is going to be  extraordinarily challenged in the decades ahead.   So that's a longer discussion, but the food  that we eat, the clothes that we wear, how do we   represent ourselves and in the world, in a  consumer society, if you're not wearing the right   clothes, and the right attire, the right shoes,  the right pants on so on. You're looked down on.   And while we need to reframe how we  represent ourselves, and what is appropriate.   And look at the two of us, we each have a beard,  and we're a little bit I just got a haircut, so I   could be on this program with you. But yesterday,  I didn't look anywhere as trim as I do today. So   how we, you know, the clothes that we wear and  how we more generally represent ourselves? The   transportation we use, do we really need  that second car? Let's say our could we use a   train a bus, other modes of transportation?  Really? Could we do that? Well, with the internet,   maybe we don't need to be commuting as much as we  did in the past. So I think a lot of people with a   pandemic are turning obviously to the internet,  and they're transforming. They're saying,   I'm not gonna go back to the office. I don't  want to do all of that. I'm just as functional   and effective here at home using the internet,  and occasionally meeting with my coworkers.  >>Rick Archer: Elon Musk just announced that if  you're not going to be in the office 40 hours a   week, you can leave Tesla. And he's the one  who wants to like colonize Mars as a Plan B   because the Earth might not make it. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. That's right.   The work well, okay, the work that  you do. Okay, well leave Tesla.   I'll say, Elon, thank you very much. It's time  for me to find new work. And I'll go working. Go   to work with an electric bike company. And you can  have your high-end cars, and I'm gonna help create   electric bikes for the masses. Let's say, >>Rick Archer: There's a lot of people doing   that actually, there's been a big, you know,  layoff thing where people are just quitting.   Because I guess there it kind of  happened recently after the pandemic,   not the pandemic is totally over. But people  just thought, 'what am I doing with my life,   I'm not gonna go and spend 40 50 hours a  week doing this meaningless thing, I've   got to find something better'. So how to better  I don't know what they have as a backup plan,   but a lot of people have just been quitting. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. So the work that we   do, and I say to people, look, we, each of us has  what I would call true gifts, we have near gifts,   things we're pretty good at. And oftentimes we're  earning a living with things we're pretty good at.   And we also have true gifts. And your  true gift might be gardening, it might be   the care of animals, that might be woodworking,  I'm not sure what your true gifts are.   But find your true gifts. And if your heart  is in it, and you're, you can bring your whole   being into it. You're not living divided anymore,  you're living whole. At that point, you're a   powerful force in the world. Find your true gifts,  invest your life energy in those gifts, connect   with your aliveness, be conscious about it. And  you're bringing a new being into the evolutionary   process. So that's another thing I would suggest. >>Rick Archer: Was it Joseph Campbell,   with whom you worked, who said, 'Follow  your bliss', or was that somebody else?  >>Duane Elgin: That was Campbell, >>Rick Archer: Okay,   and how do you interpret that phrase? >>Duane Elgin: Well follow your life,   what brings you alive? >>Rick Archer: Right?  >>Duane Elgin: That's how I interpret  if it brings you alive before that.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Which doesn't mean, I want  to be a rock star or something like that, which,   or I want to I Rick Archer would like  to be a professional basketball player,   because you have to obviously, go for  something that suits your capabilities.   But um, I think everybody does have a Dharma.  I've actually interviewed people Stephen Cope,   I did a whole interview with him about Dharma and  finding, finding what you're meant to do and what   your, what you're best able to do and what you're  going to evolve most quickly doing. And so I think   that's something everybody really has to find >>Duane Elgin: Yes. Good.  >>Rick Archer: And there's probably a lot of  people in this world who are doing something that   is, in a simpler world, they could be  doing something much more meaningful,  >>Duane Elgin: yes, >>Rick Archer: than sitting in   a factory assembling widgets. All day long. >>Duane Elgin: That's right. And they,   they could have potentially, not only one job,  two or three jobs, and those jobs could be   mutually supportive and reinforcing of one another  that's happening in a cohousing community. Someone   might be working in the garden part of the  time, doing bodywork massage, and whatever,   another part of the time cooking another  part. And so a constellation of contributions   could then become your livelihood, your  contribution to the larger community.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah, that's a whole nother level  of discussion that we're kind of in it right now.   But I've often thought that in an ideal world, in  a more enlightened world, there would be so many   industries that now are behemoths that dominate  our culture that absolutely have no place.   I mean, you can think of some obvious ones, there  wouldn't be any need for the tobacco industry,   the liquor industry, the gun industry, you know,  but all kinds of crazy financial things. I mean,   the credit default swaps and all that,  that caused the crash in the Bush,   Bush administration, everything has just gotten  so complicated, and probably wouldn't exist in   a more enlightened world. And somehow, I've  often felt when I say that sort of thing that   all that stuff has got to come crumbling down,  it's got to be dismantled somehow, then I don't   I just don't know exactly how that's going  to happen, or how traumatic it's gonna be for   all involved when it does. But if we're actually  headed for some kind of Age of Enlightenment,   you know, your third scenario, then that will  necessitate or include the complete destruction,   not destruction, complete dismantling, and  yes, you shouldn't have such structures.  >>Duane Elgin: Well, you mentioned just  a few minutes ago, that we're going into   an economic hurricane. >>Rick Archer: Yeah.  >>Duane Elgin: And so the to be ready. They're  saying, this is coming not in the far future,   but in the near future. So the unraveling and the  breakdown and moving into the collapse of these   big structures, big systems, and as a breakstone,  we're going to have to reconfigure our lives   more in a more resilient manner at a local level,  recreate community live, simply be more conscious,   connect with our aliveness. And all the rest  things that we've been speaking about here.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah, so that might be might have  been a good concluding statement you just made.   And I hope everybody can see how this discussion  is relevant to the overall theme of BatGap.   You know, I've always felt strongly that spiritual  awakening has to take into consideration the kinds   of things Duane and I have been talking about  today. And that it will, if there, if there's   going to be some kind of spiritual awakening  of a whole society, it will include a complete   restructuring of the way society works. Just  as often happens in an individual's life,   when they spiritually awaken, they find, you know,   everything changes in terms of what they do, what  they're interested in, and all that kind of stuff.  >>Duane Elgin: That's right. >>Rick Archer: Yeah.  >>Duane Elgin: Golly, this has been a lot  of fun for me, Rick, to talk with you and   have this conversation. So I thank you for,  for that. And for the sharing your wisdom,   as you have. So I appreciated that a lot. >>Rick Archer: Oh, likewise, I mean, this whole   thing is one of my favorite topics, and you're the  best guy to talk to about him. You know, in fact,   it's funny, I tell the people, you know, a couple  years, a year or more ago, you sent me an earlier   version of this book. I said, oh, boy, this is  great. I read the first chapter. So I said, this   is great. I got to interview Duane. And then I'll  read the rest. And you kept saying, wait, wait,   well, I'm putting together some things. I'm doing  some videos. I'm updating the book, and then we'll   do it. So yeah, we finally got around to doing it. >>Duane Elgin: Got there.   Yeah. Thanks for your patience. >>Rick Archer: Oh, you're right.   You're welcome. Thank you for everything  you're doing and have been doing.   Yeah. And thanks to those who've  been listening or watching.   Next week, I'll be interviewing a gentleman  named Suresh Ramaswamy Ramaswamy. Right.   We'll get it. And he has written a book called  'Just Be and seems like a very bright fella.   I'm looking forward to delving into his  work and then having a conversation with   'Ramaswamy'. That's where you pronounce it.  I got it, right. I just pronounced it wrong.   I got it, right. But it was wrong. So anyway,  that's what we've got scheduled. And those,   you know, watching this, if you want to see who  we have scheduled in the coming weeks and months,   there's an upcoming interviews page on BatGap. You  can, check that out, and there's a little thing   on the page with each person where you can set  a reminder so that your Gmail or your Outlook or   whatever will pop up a reminder, so that you can  watch the live one if you want to. And it's nice   to have people watching the live one and sending  in questions. So I guess we're done. Duane, we'll   be in touch. I'll keep sending me over cartoons. >>Duane Elgin: Yeah, to yes, I'd love to do   that with you. Yeah. All right. All right. Your  brother was wonderful to spend this time with you.  >>Rick Archer: Yeah. Me to stay in  touch to talk to you later. Okay.

Channel: BuddhaAtTheGasPump

Views: 10,558

Keywords: Crisis, climate, evolution, spirituality, internet, population

Id: HnaFJ_ZlIw0

Length: 118min 42sec (7122 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 10 2022