Anglican Unscripted #291 - ACNA Holy Orders Update

[Music] okay welcome to another edition of Anglican unscripted we're going to do a quick follow up interview to an interview I conducted a couple years ago with Bishop David Hicks we sat down at your offices in Philadelphia you had just been appointed to a commissioned task force to study Holy Orders and you looked you know grayish in your face because you know the task before you and I think I asked you you know what's really the purpose of the task force and you said well it's not what you would expect Kevin we're not here to tell the College of Bishops what to do we're here to present them all the facts right and I remember I didn't laugh out loud I know I didn't but I was humored in the fact that well in today's social networking world of Facebook and Twitter nobody even watching this interview is going to understand what that really means what does that really mean kids let's repeat ourselves yeah the task force was commissioned to help the College of Bishops by leading them in a discussion about Holy Orders in particular the issue of whether or not women should be admitted to Holy Order so that was our charge it wasn't to come up with the answer but to provide the information that the bishops would need in order to lead the province in knowing how we're going to move forward with a difference of opinion on this issue within the province then I read 318 pages very informative lots of sides of both sides of the issue but you didn't encompass everything all the teachings going you know back 2,000 3,500 years on this issue obviously is just too much out there yeah and certainly as you can imagine there were a lot of things that we discussed as a task force that didn't make it into the final report but they were things that we need to study and consider in anticipation of say to the college so yes there's a lot more material there than we've provided but what we could do is to frame the discussion in terms of the commitments and principles that each side of the question relies on in coming to their conclusions and the reason we did that is it's not as if there haven't been a lot of studies already conducted about ordination and women's ordination and so to simply repeat what can be found elsewhere didn't seem to be productive or helpful where I think army report is it shows that there are a great deal of commitments and Theological principle one adopts even before coming to the issue of women's ordination and that if we don't address those underlying issues we're simply going to be talking past one another I know that there are people in spite of the discussion that we had and in spite of the fact that I have at provincial councils and assemblies and College of Bishops meetings reiterated time and time again that our purpose was not to come up with an answer there are still people who are disappointed that we didn't do that and I find that I'm receiving at least two categories of disappointment but one is they expected certain people expected that if a serious study was accomplished then there's no doubt that they would conclude the same thing that I've concluded so that's the one discipline the other is that somehow we should have to divert minute applying where and if we were diligent in our study we would come up with something that no one else thought of before that would be the simple answer to the the question that we're having and both of those things are are misappropriated hope we the issue is difficult precisely because there is so much that goes into thinking about this and into the conclusions that someone draws that to simply have a easy solution to this that could be articulated in a few sentences it's just not going to happen so I'm sorry for the people who are disappointed we tried to Telegraph this ahead to say what we were doing was to provide the lay of the land for this topic but not to come up with a solution okay well not coming up with the solution is fine I just have some internal questions so you don't have to name names but so I offer this to your process did anybody change your their minds on the Commission that you know of no no no one changed their position which I think itself goes to show that there isn't this magic key there to simply open the the door and answer everyone's concerns I think what we did accomplish slow is a respect for the fact that the other side whichever side you're looking from has given thought to their position it's very easy for us to characterize others who differ from us as either being ignorant or in some cases people might accuse the other side of being having malicious motives of simply wanting to cave in to society or they have misogyny lurking somewhere underneath and I think we came to develop good friendships among one another even though our position is didn't change and respect one other to say okay I can see with the principles that you're working with how you are able to get where you want even from them except those principles I hope that's something that the province as a whole is able to do as this discussion goes further among the bishops and as we know full well on blogs and other social media the discussions going on that hopefully people can avoid attributing ill-will or poor motives to the other side but recognize that there is serious theological thinking going in on both sides of the issue the problem is what things we accept as being the most important principles that we work with in arriving at our conclusions for example the more traditional approach to to Holy Orders which doesn't see it appropriate appropriate to ordain women places a great deal of value usually on the tradition of the church on seeing the Anglican Church as one of the three great churches along with the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Church so what tradition says and what the other churches with historic Episcopal as part of their polity what they say and think has a great deal of weight for a traditional person for someone who comes we-we've for a lack of better term sort of lumped at together as evangelical or we could say the more protestant end of church Manship in our tradition they're not going to place as much value on what the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church thinks they're not going to place as much value on whether or not the church has practiced something for a long period of time going back to the beginning the more reforming attitude says that the church at any time has a lot wrong with it that needs to be corrected and so this can just be a one of the many issues that the church needs reforming over whereas the more Catholic minded the more traditional minded would say the church usually gets it right every once in a while something needs to be adjusted but we rely heavily on upon those things so when you're beginning in those starting points that's going to inform your conclusion very heavily in which way you're going to to come out on the question of women's ordination well I I agree I I was brought up Congregationalist Methodist a little bit Lutheran by Minnesota Democrat family and I have a completely different understanding through experience of these matters through other parts of the church that we're not in Anglican and yeah you're right what you bring to the table is going to affect your perception on this and you know we'll see a time at a time and again on many different issues now that your part is that you probably have a four week cruise scheduled vacation you know next month we have provincial council and assembly in the College of Bishops oh I can't go anywhere one of the parts of the report that maybe director not not in direct was kind of an indication that this is not worth splitting over that this is not an issue that needs to be you know no matter what the church decide the College of Bishops decides in the long run we the the task force don't see any reason that we need to split over this issue was I reading that right you were and everyone on the task force felt very strongly about that that's something that we absolutely shared in common Kevin you have to ask yourself what is the alternative the alternative would be for our church to fracture and for each group to have some sense of self-satisfaction that we're just hanging around with people who agree with me but how effective are we going to be as a province I just don't see that that splitting over this issue is going to help us at all and I realize I'm just not saying I realize that there's a great deal of discomfort with this it is difficult for us as a province when there are people who are ordained in one diocese I'm thinking of women who are not recognized in another diocese it is difficult for those who are on the traditional end of things to say we can't speak with one voice about Holy Orders especially when we dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church and with the Orthodox Church and there's a great deal of pain and tension in living the way we're living right now but again what's the solution simply getting rid of the angst and the difficulty by separating may solve one problem but it makes it so we don't need to think about things that we don't want to think about anymore but as far as the overall impact of what the church can do both in the world in terms of reaching people for the gospel and in terms of our partnership with gaff Khan and the Anglican Communion I just don't see a future for us in North America if we break off into various sects of people over this issue now I I agree with you the greater victory is it comes to our enemies right the enemies of the ACA would have their heyday if we divided over this issue no question about it and we tend to look back at church history with rose-colored glasses and we think oh if things could be just like they were whenever and people have a different point in history that they like to point to but the fact of the matter is the church has always been messy there has always been difference of opinion in controversy so this is nothing new where I think our province can be a great witness is for us in spite of this major and very important issue being a source of tension for us in spite of all of that we are able to stay together in as much fellowship and closeness as possible I think that will speak much more than simply saying we're going to go often do our own thing so that we don't have to worry about this issue anymore yes Emily told me a long time ago church is supposed to be hard yeah yeah and that's right now you find Italy in the Testaments you find it and especially in the Gospels you know the the planning phase that put men in charge of the church what in some terms is a design flaw it just it it is what is as I've often thought the church would work a lot better if it didn't have people in it yes I would just the theology not the people bishop Ickx I want to thank you so much your time you've been very gracious to sit down with us twice and I do hope your next task from the College of Bishops or the archbishop is easier than the Holy Orders and we want to thank you and and the task force for all your work on this I mean I do want to bet many many times how many times did you guys meet Ellis oh I don't know we we met two or three times a year from the beginning that we came together so well once again thank you for your time bishop you're welcome you

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Keywords: Anglican, Anglican Commuion, Kevin Kallsen, Gavin Ashenden, George Conger, Church, news, podcast, Jesus, jesus christ, justin welby, rowan williams, foley beach, acna, anglican church in north america, God, bible, islam, brexit, LGBTTQQIAAP, LGBTQ

Id: a9hqt70SqmA

Length: 15min 25sec (925 seconds)

Published: Tue May 23 2017