Andrew Roberts, “The State of Churchill’s Reputation Today”

we're now going to begin our last session of the afternoon many of you were at our conference two years ago in New York City and we'll recall that the true highlight of that conference took place when Celia Sands who's one of our honorary co-chairs this year sat down and had a one-on-one conversation with Jane Williams who was secretary for Winston Churchill and Jane very much wanted to be with us here this year but is no longer able to make that that transatlantic journey but she worked very closely with Andrew in Andrew Roberts our next speaker when he was writing his book walking with destiny and she's very prominently mentioned in the acknowledgments and so what she's done is she has written a letter and asked me to read it out to you by way of introducing Andrew Roberts so this is her letter it is with the deepest sadness that I find it is not possible for me to be once again with the international Churchill Society at your annual gathering each year brings more understanding and appreciation of the extraordinary triumphs and tragedies in the life of Winston Churchill over 1000 books have been written about him Churchill will forever live in our hearts and minds when last year I read Andrew Roberts great biography Churchill walking with destiny I was overwhelmed with emotion with amazement at the sheer volume and understanding of the human being that is Winston Churchill and which Andrew has brought before us I got in touch with my friend David Freeman who amongst other duties is the editor of finest hour and told him that I believe I considered Andrew Roberts walking with destiny is the finest biography and account of the life of Winston Churchill I had ever read I worked from 1949 I worked from 1949 through 1955 as one of Churchill's secretaries this period covered his writing of his war memoirs as well as becoming a peacetime prime minister from 1951 to 1955 so much covered in Andrews vivid prose describes events that are familiar to me the visits to President Eisenhower the painting in beautiful places throughout the world but throughout constant concentrated meticulous work everything in that great mine was spoken out loud for the secretaries to inscribe in shorthand he drove us and rarely gave us praise but he had subtle ways of showing his approval and we would not have had it otherwise I would like to draw attention in Andrews great work to a couple of descriptions that touched me particularly on page 57 it is this description in September 1898 of the charge of the 21st lancers at the Battle of Omdurman Churchill wrote to his mother quote I never felt the slightest nervousness and felt as cool as I do now the importance of staying calm and retaining high morale in the face of heavy odds was to remain with Churchill until the end of his life please also read carefully the description of Churchill's period as Home Secretary 1910 in 1911 where I noticed his capacity for affection particularly towards his family and his loyalty to those whom he had known long and who had served him well this magnanimity is legendary and he hated vindictiveness above all things he would say to us I cannot stand a witch hunt patience however was a virtue with which he was totally unfamiliar his temper was like lightning but the Sun never went down without a gesture that all was forgiven there in the end was the smile walking with destiny is in no way a hagiography qualities and characteristics are fully honestly and meticulously described the maps the page notes the family tree the beautiful endless illustrations all contribute to a work that can be described as a masterpiece thank you Andrew I am so grateful for this tribute Jane Williams ladies and gentlemen Andy Roberts ladies and gentlemen thank you very much indeed and thank you very much also for those kind words David and those kind words from Jane I don't believe what she says with regard to the family tree owing to the fact that I have somebody who is in the family tree who died before they were born you get these these kind of things crop up I know all the authors in this room of which there are so many will appreciate that that does happen occasionally but nonetheless I'd like to talk about this present state of Churchill's reputation received this afternoon because it is under attack now almost as much as any other time in fact any other time since the 1990s it seems to go up and down and up and down and at the moment there is a pretty sustained assault on heirs and what one needs to do in these occasions is pretty much always to go back to the original sources to go to Churchill archives which were so well run by your peers Brendan who's here in the audience and his and presently wonderfully run also of course by Alan Packard and to look at the original sources and see what genuinely Churchill wrote or said rather than the weddin than what the detractors are pretending that he wrote or said so I'm going to go through a few if it's all right of I think the most egregious of the VIII factually incorrect remarks that are being made about Churchill at the moment not least so that all of you when you come up come up at a dinner party or in in conversation with somebody who is a believer in this in this assault on Churchill to have a very good line of defense the lady who's just turned up with her daughter was the American editor and publisher of walking with destiny and I want you all to give her a big round of applause me I'd like to take you back to that wonderful and and emotional and also freezing cold moment on the 12th of November 1940 at Westminster Abbey when Winston Churchill was giving his eulogy to Neville Chamberlain it was freezing cold not just because it was in November but also because they'd taken all the windows out all the stained-glass windows out of Westminster Abbey in order to protect them against the Blitz and and they put up some some boarding which didn't work with the regard to the cold and so they were all in their overcoats and they were listening to this extraordinary speech one of the greatest speeches that Churchill ever gave in which he famously said history with its flickering lamp stumbles across the trails of the past trying to reconstruct its themes to revive its echoes and Kindle with pale gleams the passions of former days sentences like that remind us why he deserved the Nobel Prize for Literature it wasn't really a speech about history it was a speech about the role of conscience and of reputation in politics and it's about Churchill's reputation as I mentioned that I'd like to speak today one good thing is that ultimately it doesn't matter what the revisionists say because the established view of Churchill is already there there will be a tax but nonetheless the British have an established view not just the British of course he's in the he's in the rotunda here in Washington chart will the numbers of people going to chart will keep going up there's an American warship named after him he wins those those BBC polls about who's the greatest Briton I think sometimes the slight irritation of the BBC by the way what he himself called the grievous inquest of history has sat and he has been found not guilty however because all history is in a sense growing upon growing upon what has been written before it's important that we've moved now from the hagiography frankly some very hagiographical accounts in the 1950s through to the 1970s when there was a new vicious tone that that came about with regard to history of churchill and then it got a bit better and now it's it's gone crazy in my view but i'd like to look back on some of the things that we had to face from the left came clive punting who argued that churchill probably knew about Pearl Harbor before it took place what an appalling libel that is the idea that Winston Churchill who loved America who was somebody who appreciated and and admired the United States Navy would have allowed an attack on Pearl Harbor to have taken place solely in order to try and get the Americans into the war when even the intention to attack Pearl Harbor would have got the Americans into the war I think is a is a despicable remark to have made we've gone through of course I think now to the nth degree the attacks on him about being an alcoholic Clive ponting kept saying that he was but it strikes me that we now appreciate that he was somebody who had an iron Constitution for alcohol he drank a lot of it but he was in no way dependent on it we have from the right a man Robert Rico a Don called Rico who calls him a war criminal the stooge of Stalin and a drug addict they they rarely take refuge in understatement these these revisionists then Nicholson Baker and a novelist who quotes who try to argue that Churchill was as bad as Hitler and and he says and he quotes Churchill saying in 1920 about mustard gas saying that it's about mustard guess I'm strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes but when one goes to the Churchill archives in Cambridge and reads the original there what he actually said was making his eyes water by the use of lachrymatory gas gases can be used which would cause great inconvenience and spread a lively terror yet wouldn't even leave no serious permanent effect on most of those effect on most of those affected what he was talking about therefore ladies and gentlemen was tear gas and if you can't tell the difference between tear gas on one side and mustard gas or chlorine or phosphine gas or zyklon-b even on the other then you should not be writing history books he says Nicholson Baker by the way in his book I used quote I used Wikipedia during the writing of the book especially to check facts considering that wikipedia has a reason that I was expelled from school which bears no relation to the truth at all I hasten to point out but I would try to to argue that you should never use Wikipedia as especially not to check facts there's another point in Nicholson Baker's book where he quotes an article by Churchill saying in nineteen about Trotsky in 1922 he might have made dictator of Russia but for one fatal obstacle he was a Jew he was still a Jew and nothing could ever get over that such intolerance he he writes when you read the rest of the piece and it implies that Churchill was being anti-semitic when you read the rest of the piece he he went on and said such intolerance such pettiness such bigotry were indeed hard to bear now Baker must have seen those following lines in order to have quoted from the original ones he must his eyes must have continued on into the following sentence which completely undermine the point that he was trying to make about Churchill being an anti-semite so it's fundamentally intellectually dishonest not to take into account the the following lines we have attacks from over the internet that Churchill was responsible for the sinking of the Lusitania that he had a secret peace treaty with Mussolini that somehow ended up in the bottom of Lake Como this was one of the we had on the internet which with bruises in a sealed container at the bottom of Lake Como so if any of you are interested in in deep-sea diving ladies and gentlemen please go down try and find the secret peace treaty with with Mussolini which otherwise doesn't seem to have survived in any of the archives understandably because it never existed and editors of course will always always go for stories about Churchill we've Churchill the flasher because he he he didn't protect himself when FDR came into the bathroom even though actually we do know that he did but part of the story is that he did cover himself with his towel before he made that very funny remark we have had fascinating stories about the extent to which he knew or didn't know about Pamela Harriman's affair with with Averell Harriman Pamela then Churchill affair which is something that unfortunate I'd like to have got to the bottom this I'm sure other historians would have but it's just simply not the kind of thing that people would have written about it and in those days whether or not it was true my favorite headline was the one in The Guardian and Churchill was a nonsmoker sometimes of course these these things do come out and they're correct about what about Churchill being a druid is obviously something that we all enjoy but then there are books entire books there was one written and a few years back which tried to argue that Winston Churchill allowed Martin Bormann to escape from the ruins of Berlin in April 1945 and the man who who wrote it at this book called Operation JB and JB was named James Bond so something tells me that it was unlikely to have been true but he put up a quarter of a million pounds the this this writer to anyone who could prove that it was untrue that Winston Churchill puts Martin Bormann up in a in a house in the Home Counties in England in order to debrief him after the end of the Second World War and when Martin Bormann skeleton was found and dna'd successfully in Berlin this this this man change the view of whether or not he was going to he'd actually ever genuinely promised a quarter of a million pounds we've had Margaret cook the the wife the widow of Robin cook the former foreign secretary saying that Winston Churchill was quote almost homosexual unquote and church was entirely tolerance of homosexuality he had many many gay friends he had people who he knew were gay at a time when you could be arrested and imprisoned for this and it made no effect on him it seems whatsoever but the idea of trying to make him out posthumously himself to have been whatever almost homosexual means strikes me as completely absurd there are legitimate issues many legitimate issues on which one can be critical of Winston Churchill of course there are he himself used to make jokes about what about Chancellor of the Exchequer he'd been he was the first in many cases to admit that he'd made mistakes and blunders in his life indeed as he wrote of course famously from the trenches to Clementine his wife I should have made nothing if I had not made mistakes so when people debate the Sydney street siege and his actions during that or the Dardanelles or his opposition's women suffrage for example these are perfectly acceptable ways to attack Winston Churchill not however with regard to the suffragettes as a lady here in the Jaipur literary festival two years ago told me that Winston Churchill had given an order to the police to - I'm trying to we've got a young lady very young lady present here but essentially molest the suffragettes so of course needless to say I was sitting next to this this Indian academic and I said oh that's fascinating gosh how interesting I've been working on Churchill's some time now and I'd really like to see that the evidence that you have that and she said i intuited it you can attack Winston Churchill over the Irish partition over the gold standard which he himself of course sir criticized himself later on over the general strike Tony Pandey and Helen F Lee I don't think very many people would go so far as Dom McDonald did John McDonald sorry the the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer and the number two man to Jeremy Corbyn the earlier this year and when asked whether or not Churchill was a hero or a villain he immediately said villain it says a lot by the way about the about the modern Labour Party that you can have the number two person just immediately say that Winston Churchill was a villain on the basis as I say of industrial relations issues in South Wales in 1911 and to ignore all the other things that make it clear that he was the exact opposite of a villain you can criticize him over the abdication crisis and Indian self-government over the Norway campaign and not publicising than a catty Massacre but in each of these things it's vital again to go back to the original sources very often of course Martin Gilbert's companion volumes which are now being heroically finished off by Hillsdale College and to and to look at the context and to look at the the truth of these things rather than the the revisionists accounts of them they were perfectly understandable wartime reasons why Churchill and the Foreign Office did not admit that they knew who was really responsible for the cotton Massacre namely of course Joseph Stalin rather and and continue to pretend that it was the Nazis at the time in the Second World War for every five Germans killed in combat on the battlefield four were killed on the Eastern Front it was raison d'etat realpolitik that meant that he had to say what he said over the Katan massacre other lines of assault could be Singapore the fool of Singapore the air cover for HMS repulse and the Prince of Wales Russian convoys the whole Mediterranean strategy has been attacked by no less a great military historian than professor Sir Michael Howard who once interviewed general Sanger and Ethel in the the German commander at Monte Cassino and and at the end of their long discussion over this the the german general said next time you invade Italy don't start at the bottom the issue of unconditional surrender is obviously something that that is it's worth while discussing whether or not Churchill was bounced into it by by FDR at the Casablanca conference the bombing of Dresden of course perfectly acceptable to discuss whether or not that was that was a step too far sure Chileans will argue and in my view there be right to argue that it was it was demanded by the Soviets that there were railway marshalling yards that needed to be hit to prevent the Germans from moving troops from one side of the operational theater to the other and other aspects that very high death rate that came as a result of the Gauleiter not providing proper shelters but nonetheless it's okay to have a discussion over this I think personally Churchill can be defended on almost every single one that I've mentioned and there are more but what is not acceptable it strikes me is the cheating that you get again and again and the way in which people try to attack Churchill using very modern often politically correct attitudes especially of course towards race that simply wouldn't have meant anything at the time and certainly and certainly not to him the Bengal famine is a disgraceful and completely in my view unacceptable way to attack Winston Churchill dr. Mukherjee and of course the Indian nationalist Hindu nationalist bigoted Shashi Tharoor have accused Winston Churchill of deliberately engineering the deaths of millions of Bengalis and we and the number that they come up with is of course six million not because there was any historical background to the idea of their being genuinely six million it's just that the echo of the phrase six million of course has such powerful Holocaust connections as to be a line that they love to take in order to try to equate Winston Churchill with out of Hitler but look at what genuinely happened of course I go into this in my book for six or seven pages and you can check it out there as far as the details are concerned but overall the big picture is that in October 1942 a huge cyclone hit Bengal and as well as wiping out the rice crop on which the local residents had lived for generations it also destroyed the rail the road and rail communications which would have been used in order to have brought in food into that area and also at the time places that we had in the past when these when these horrific acts of God took place we would be able to buy in food from places like Malaya and Thailand and Burma that was completely on when the Japanese were an occupation of all three of those countries they had the Japanese fleet had bombed Eastern shelled Eastern Indian cities they had submarines in the bay of bengal the idea that winston churchill was responsible for for the deaths that took place the horrific deaths that took place yes mistakes were made and they were made by calcutta and they were made by the local provincial councils which by the way at that stage were run by Muslim and Hindu local native majorities the idea that Churchill simply because he made what today to modern ears are unacceptable jokes racially based jokes the idea that because of that he actually wanted millions of people to die is a completely unacceptable in my view a twisting of the genuine historical truth we can argue about the bombing of Auschwitz and why it didn't happen there were in this actually it strikes me that it's a it's a indication of not just bombing Auschwitz itself but also bombing the railway lines to and from out of it it's a huge indication that that Winston Churchill was not a dictator in Britain he's been accused of being one as being one but where he won he would have insisted on the RAF bombing these railway lines it's notoriously difficult to bomb a railway line in fact and of course it also required the RAF or the usaaf or both to cross hundreds of miles into Poland to do this but nonetheless he said invoke me if necessary to Anton Eden and it was stopped at several layers below him not least by John McCloy and and others in the in the American authorities but were he a genuine dictator as he's accused of being he would have on those those railway lines Yalta any number of of lines of attack on on him at Yalta frankly if you're an MP like Winston Churchill for two thirds of a century at the height of politics for two-thirds of a century of and and also so of course somebody like him who never shied away from any issue either of course you're going to be able to be attacked for various things you cross the floor of the house not once but but twice and there are certain lines of attack I think that come back again and again there's the Tory nationalist the extreme nationalist line that was pervade by the late Alan Clark and the late Morris cowling in which he use attack for not accepting Adolphe Hitler's peace offer in May 1940 in sorry the May in the summer of 1940 because it led to socialism and it led to the loss of the Empire apparently it led to our great power status going but actually if you look at what would have happened had had Churchill not been there if Lord Halifax as he was then Foreign Secretary but of course later became Prime Minister it could have become Prime Minister instead of Churchill had he accepted that peace offer in every possible permutation or combination of the future we would have been in a worldly worse situation this is a man who ripped up every Adolf Hitler a man who ripped up every treaty that he ever signed the idea of keeping on the Empire is an absurdity as well after 1935 it was going it was it was moving at least the important part of it India was moving towards self-government what it would have meant with regard to demoralization here in the United States sorry demoralisation in Britain but also the lack of support in the United States at the time of lend-lease if we had if we done some kind of ignoble deal with Germany there was simply no way that the United States would have continued in its in its support and affection for the for the British so again and again I think one can just argue these these points through on straightforward intellectual lines and again and again Winston Churchill actually comes out extraordinarily well from the from the intellectual exercise we've seen in the last 12 months and a series of attacks Nigel Hamilton has brought out a book about FDR which claims that Winston Churchill was always opposed to d-day and that is simply not the case ladies and gentlemen from June 1940 from the time of Dunkirk he was trying to he was planning to return to the continents one way or another it doesn't mean that he wanted to do it as early as general Marshall in the fall of 1942 but it was always in the back of his mind where he wouldn't have put so much capital behind the mulberry harbors and the pipeline under the ocean and the various inventions and and the landing crafts and the tank and so on so forth the various tank alterations unless he had seen one day there would be a return but he wasn't going to do that ladies and gentlemen before there was two things that had been done the first of course was victory in the air war over over Northwest France on the day of d-day itself when the Luftwaffe the Luftwaffe flew 3,000 sorry 318 missions 318 over the beaches Dunkirk the Allies flew 13,000 688 that is the level of a ver superiority that was necessary for that operation and of course also they needed to have won the Battle of the Atlantic and that wasn't won until the late summer of 1943 in January 1942 the Germans added a fourth rotor to the Enigma machine plunging all of the decrypts into gobbledygook and it wasn't until the December of that year that the boffins at Bletchley Park were able to break back into the shark code German naval codes and to work out therefore whereabouts the wolf pack's that u-boats were meeting so so we were able to send bombers and destroyers there if it had happened any earlier than that there was a serious danger that the Germans would have been able to have counter-attacked and a successful German counter-attack against d-day against the Normandy operation could have setback with whole war a year or so and can you imagine the the welter of blood that would have happened as a result of that my knild Don at Cambridge Norman stone told me that nothing is inevitable in history no historian should ever use the word inevitable it's it's the one word you should never use because nothing is inevitable in history except for German counter-attack and and you only have to look at core and you look at Salerno and Anzio and the great and of course the the Battle of the Bulge in in December 1944 thirty-nine divisional attack marching through the snow with sending searchlights up on the cloud so that they could turn night in today to all the messages sent by motorbikes so that none of our none of our radio decrypter x' were able to hear any of the plans for this you think that they were capable of doing that in December 1944 imagine what would have happened in the autumn of 1942 or in 1943 so it is simply untrue this latest assault on Churchill's reputation by by Nigel Hamilton and others and then of course we had the in the last year Richard toy and Warren doctor claiming that Winston Churchill was unfaithful to Clementine with with Lady Castle Ross but based on a fascinating and and it's it's great to listen to interview of Koval with with Joc with Bill Barney's thank you thank you piers with Bill Barnett yes my favorite bit of the the tape and I must admit when I when I heard it the first time I did sit up straight - isn't this my favorite but at the tape actually there are lots of funny parts of the tape but actually it's when you look more closely again into the into the actual evidence that you see again and again how completely absurd and wrong and ridiculous this is and it's not just because Winston Churchill fell in love with Clementine on the day he met her for the second time in in 1908 and stayed desperately in love with her for the whole of the rest of his life it was it's actually a letter in which lady Castle rose after supposedly a four year affair with Churchill writes him a note and gives him her telephone number which is a four-digit code and it strikes me if you've had an affair with a woman for four years you're going to remember her four-digit telephone number there are rather rather circumstantial pieces of evidence to suggest that this is complete rubbish and just yet another of these of these attacks on Winston Churchill that sensible people and people who are interested in the evidence and actually going and finding out the truth simply will not will not believe so I'm going to end with the rest of the paragraph the the peroration indeed of Churchill's speech on that freezing cold winter winter day in November 1940 when he was speaking about Neville Chamberlain's reputation of course but also I think as so often with Winston Churchill when he was giving eulogies he was he was also slightly referring to himself and he said what is the worth of all this the only guide to a man is his conscience the only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions it's very imprudent to walk through life without this shield because we are so often mocked by the failure of our hopes and the upsetting of our calculations but with this shield however the fates may play we always march in the ranks of Honor ladies and gentlemen Winston Churchill man he marches there still thank you very much thank you so we have as we have some time for some questions if anybody would like to go into gentleman there turn from there there's a microphone that's that's being sprinting towards you thank you is there a corollary possibly between January of 42 and the possibility of America and Great Britain forming an alliance after brexit I thought this was going to be a good question about Churchill's reputation and yeah I so hope so as you can imagine it would be magnificent if if we were to have a really comprehensive trade deal with the United States a free trade deal of some really generous and and understanding and large kind a settlement and financially that would be able to help us get over the inevitable dislocations that we're going to have post brexit then then wonderful and if you're asking me to equate Donald Trump and FDR or Boris and Winston Churchill I'm not quite ready to do that but having said that I am very I'm delighted that we have as prime ministers somebody who's written a book about Winston Churchill who's interested in him who and has learnt a few of the lessons not least that of audacity next question thank you as part of the the Churchill youth movement here I know that a lot of modern-day scholars will throw charges at Churchill and also another great figure you've profiled Napoleon for their imperial ambitions so imperialism as you're well aware has fallen on very hard times I'd be interested in hearing how you would handle that particular challenge to both Churchill Napoleon's more complicated perhaps but along Imperial lines thank you yes that's a very good question and you're right it does it does come up an awful lot actually not hugely in this country but but in England an awful lot and and especially at universities wherever I speak at universities colonialism and imperialism and Churchill's support for those concepts are very much held against him and what I like to remind my listeners on these occasions is that Winston Churchill was actually alive whilst Charles Darwin was alive when it was considered generally considered that there was a hierarchy of the races something which we have considered to be today know to be absurd and and obscene but at the time it was considered to be scientific fact and and therefore I don't think that the Winston Churchill should be singled out in any way for having for having considered that imperialism was a worthwhile thing because you have to appreciate that his form of imperialism was entirely different from the Neo Darwinists from people well certainly like the Nazis because his assumption was that if he if the British race was on a higher plane in so many ways from the native peoples of the empire it was an absolute moral duty to do everything in order to help improve the lives of the native peoples that is precisely one hundred percent different from the assumption of the Neo Darwinists and the and the Nazis that actually that gave you carte blanche to treat everybody else as slaves and so there is a massive moral difference and one that I never find terribly difficult to explain to people and it's wonderful that you are doing something to tell to tell the future generations about Winston Churchill and that would be the line to take if I were if I were you because it's intelligent people can always understand it the only people who don't want to understand it people who for ideological or political reasons will not understand it so here's your room here's your microphone and I'm very impressed with you yes it is I'm very impressed with your presentation today and also with your book that I own and it's very helpful but you've said something that's really caught my attention you're talking about he was not a dictator had he been he probably would have bombed the railway lines and everything to the death camps well I've never understood why they did nothing about the death camps but how was Britain operating who would have made the decision to not bomb those camps well it was a joint decision and of course because it was the United States Air Force that would have done this as well and and this has been looked into as you can imagine in enormous detail the people at whose desks it seems to just sort of slip away are John McCloy and Anton Eden and of course they didn't know precisely what was going on the the photographs that we see when you visited Auschwitz and you see the selection ramps that that photograph was not actually developed in during the Second World War has developed almost immediately after the Second World War one of those horrific moments where if only they had developed it a year earlier they would have had a far better idea and you see everything including smoke coming out from one of the crematoria gymnast but that was not discovered until until after the war that you did have of course some incredibly brave people including poles yankovsky and others who who who came back and told people there were some photographs but there wasn't enough for mccloy and Eden to to send the Bombers halfway across Europe and and bomb railway lines which as I mentioned earlier are very difficult to to hit I was once I want Margaret Thatcher once explained to me why a railway line is difficult to it she's a wonderful person to tell you about that kind of thing there the reason is that if according to Margaret I haven't double-checked with anybody else that if the first bomb doesn't doesn't align with the railway line all the others are going to go off and not hit it so you basically have to go along the railway line or crisscross it in the hope that it's going to hit very difficult thing to do ladies gentlemen thank you very much [Applause]

Channel: The International Churchill Society

Views: 11,910

Rating: 4.7656903 out of 5

Keywords: Winston Churchill, Prime Minister, Great Britain, Allies, Leadership, WWII, Second World War, First World War, WWI

Id: 2K9ceVTey8Q

Length: 44min 59sec (2699 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 06 2020