[Music] my name is Bruce mccamon I've been with Alison transmission about 26 years I work in the service department not the marketing department so I don't know any big words you have to bring your own stuff so here's my laser pointer from the service department what I'm going to do this morning is take you through a 5day service training class in about 45 minutes anybody got a problem with that it's kind of like school you know just give me the facts so that's what we're going to to do this morning and uh my expectations for you is to Come Away with about three or four things that you can either share with the customer or make decisions amongst yourselves is you know here's some inputs or outputs that you might think of or why do we have six ranges versus why does a manual shift transmission have to have 10 or 12 something like that what's the torque converter do for us I don't know well we're going to find out and uh so hopefully from the start of the 45 minutes to the end uh we'll kind of put that all in one package and hope it makes sense so here we go and we're not going to getting more complicated than this so you have an engine transmission and wheels and an engine by itself it may be a high-tech multi-million dollar engine but it's not very efficient to spin the wheels you have to have something in the middle to transform that rotational force or Torque into the usefulness so we can let the engine run at The Sweet Spot all day long basically that's what we're trying to do so we're going to talk about the manual automated manual and then of course the Alice and Transmissions told you I didn't know any big words we have small medium and large and of course this transmission goes behind a smaller engine than that one if you look at the crosssections and we're going to dissect one of these talk about some of the colors and what goes to what um they're easily assembled and disassembled the 10 different colors represent chunks or modules that come out together 20 years ago I brought my 10-year-old son in here and in a half an hour giving him a 13 15 and 18 mm socket he had this transmission down with me helping pull some parts out into the 10 modules on the bench it's easily assembled and disassembled now when you take your tour out here it's interesting to see uh how they assemble this but what we're talking about is the customer is paying for his truck to be on the road not in the shop so that's kind of where we're going with this all of our Transmissions here are built with six forward ranges electronically you may sell one with a fped but what did you do basically it's a calibration you flip a switch and you make it a six-speed but gut wise or or parts wise they're all six-speed Transmissions with two overdrives being the service department we enjoy getting transmissions in with two or five million miles out and looking at them and uh like when customers come in they said you know hold your Spiel just tell me what's going to break first Well we'd say you pay the guy in the transmission shop that puts transmission foot in there and it'll last a long long time I would say rule of thumb the transmission is going to outlast the truck now things that that we see are really good as far as the design all of our gears in the transmission are helical cut gear versus square cut gear what I mean is that is it's cut in an angle more surface area I think of it as loadbearing walls in your basement the more surface area you have between the pole and upstairs the more force it can accept that's what we're doing because we've got a lot of mating service between the guys we can accept a lot of uh load coming in from the engine the other thing as you'll notice that our specification as far as how big an engine can go behind these keeps getting kind of bigger and bigger that's because we have serial communication interface now j1939 the information computer three wire system now talking about shift Energy Management uh when we shift like from our lower gears we're burning some energy and that's taking some Force we can say Dear Mr engine can you back off just a cat of a second while we make those lower shifts and then we'll let you go back to full force full power so that's one of the reasons we can now have a bigger engine than we ever did before behind some of these Transmissions so helical cut gears it's a great thing we can accept more Force coming in the other thing is all the gears all the time are always in mesh there's not one instance where we do this when we shift gears so what don't we have we don't have caution of teeth we don't have that wear Factor we would rather have a little excess iron maybe spinning around but you're not wearing out the transmission so between the helical cut gears and the gears all the time being in mesh even the PTO gear is in mesh with the driven gear it's got a hot shift PTO so in other words you can bring it on and bring it off off basically that's the output you're talking about okay they said if I was going to have a class I had to have a chart and that's it so rest assured we want to look at the torque coming out of the engine and what happens to it when it gets to the Transmissions we look look at a a manual and automated manual then we'll look at the Allison Transmission let's look at a manual shift transmission first there's the shift points there's the torque of the engine Road speed that's when you shift come up ramp up to speed foot on the clutch separate engine transmission put your gears in the right spot take your foot off the clutch put the Power package back together look what we're doing to that multi-million dollar engine you just bought every time you put your foot in on the clutch you're taking its force or your power away and you're having to ramp up that's not a very efficient use of an engine plus look where they're having to start every time down here basically idle or maybe 850 pound feet of torque ramping up wouldn't it be nice to just stay up there all day long okay let's look at an automated manual click basically the same picture you may or may not have a clutch pedal there electronically it's doing a little more it's doing stuff down here but the picture is going to look exactly the same now let's look at the Allison Transmission there's your sweet spot all day long every engine has basically got an RPM or Torque it likes to run in I'm a bicycle eracer and I've read all the books and all that stuff and I found out that if I keep my Pace at 90 RPMs that's the most efficient use I can do that if I get up to 120 that's not good or 40 not good but I can last well I'm old now but I can last a long time at 90 RPM and I just keep shifting gears to stay that that's what we're doing with the transmission today to allow that engine to stay up there in The Sweet Spot all day we talk about uninterrupted shifts in other words that driver and we've got several different kind of drivers today this guy can just Mash his foot on the throttle and leave it all day long because we don't have a frontend clutch we don't have something that we can burn up if we make full power shifts with the uh like the manual shift transmission so let's look at the torque converter there's the torque converter got one in all the Transmissions it's in the front I'm the engine through a series of flex plates we Bol to the transmission the purpose of the engine is to spin that torque converter that's pretty simple now let's see what it looks like inside we only have to remember two colors today I'm might even make it easier you only have to remember one color this side of the room just like class you only have to remember red anything you see in the transmission in red always spins with the engine this side of the class since you're an IND now you're on AR way anything in yellow spins with the turbine three parts of the torque converter the torque converter pump turbine and Stater as you notice the engine's out here this is where you bolt on there's the torque converter pump it's always spinning with the engine this turbine notice the colors here the turbine is independent it's not connected in any way to the pump this the technical part we're going to fling the transmission flood because it's a hydraulic coupling we fling the transmission flood from this side to this side try to get that to spin spin the turbine shaft spin our gears and spin our wheels so if the turbine's not moving the wheels aren't moving red yellow all right it's going to be on the test there is a hydraulic coupling think of it this one electric fan this is plugged into the wall no connection between this one and this one we get enough air moving in there finally we're going to overcome in our case the 60,000 lbs behind you and overcome that force and our turbine is going to move the wheels that is a hydraulic coupling and this is why we can make full power shifts because we don't have a clutch to burn out all we got transmission fluid in there we're going to talk about going up that hill this afternoon it may be a little wet going up there but your mission is to go up that 25% grade Hill stop halfway up and then use your throttle and just go the rest of the way up our insurance companies won't even allow our manual or automated manuals to go up that hill I think insurance purposes uh we might start breaking Drive Lines axles that type of thing but we used to have the train driver these guys don't exist anymore who do we have we got driver B the guy that's going to try to drive it like a rental car do you remember when antilock brakes first came out I was at the airport business trip got in the rental car with my buddy said analog brake equip well we weren't even out of the parking lot 60 80 mph down the exit jamming on the brakes welcome to the drivers of today so these are the guys that we have to design our transmission for it's kind of like negatively designing preventing him from doing all the bad things we're going to talk about how the computer inhibits some of the things he's going to try Okay figure before you go up the hill better see what your shift selectors look like now in the front row you're responsible for where I leave this thing it's your only job here to all right on the 300 and 4,000 series transmission we have either a lever push button or if you had a garbage Packer you might have both on the 1,00 2000 OEM supplied cable driven no two-digit display like we've got over here and the only way the computer knows what range you're in through the cable we're turning this selector shaft that signal goes back to the computer but on the 3,000 4,000 these are dedicated talking back and forth to the computer and we're going to go around the horn here and see everything it does but my first trick question for the day and as the teacher said there are no wrong wrong answers there's wrong answers aren't there which one do you think you've got more control over the lever or the push button I hear a push button somebody say lever just to make My Story come out here l oh lever there are wrong answers and those were wrong as we say in Indiana another hooer term it's got the same wires coming out of the back they're identical so it's a preference between the OEM and the customer some people like the lever some people like the push button of course this doesn't have a lever so to get in the hold positions you use the down arrow button same thing for our hold ranges but other than that they're dead on identical so thank you just going around the block as far as we've got in here six different modes and to get to these different modes up and down arrow buttons toggles you around on the lever selector the Allison logo button gets you around okay first mode drive mode you've got two digits up there one says select one says monitor if this is set up as a six-speed calibration wise you put it in drive it's going to say six all day long unless you use our hold positions and it'll say 5 43 the one on the right is Monitor and what that means is what range are you in now so me being a truck driver I like to hear and know what range I'm in when I'm doing work so as you start to up chip the number gets bigger now we'll talk about that wrench in the middle and that has to do with prognostics and that will identify when you need attention to those three parts on the right which is an option we'll get there okay so we all know what the drive mode looks like diagnostic mode now you can read out your own troubleshooting codes then we've got the oil level sensor on the 3000 and 4,000 here's the control module or I call it the pan that sits on the bottom of the transmission the 4,000 is just a little bigger this Smoke Stack right there is your oil level sensor oil level is about there this is like a float in your toilet electronically the official terms is it's got a hall effect switch on top and it's measuring the density of the oil and it's sending that appropriate voltage back to the computer and then basically it's going to spell out L1 which means your low one quart or hi2 which means your high two quarts and guess what the engineers figured up to put on the screen there if the oil level is okay okay there you go so this is dead on accurate and because it's dead unaccurate we make you wait for it so you have to be up to 100° Fahrenheit zero output shaft low engine speed in neutral foot off the brake or foot on the brake and now we'll give you a reading somebody said well don't you have a dip stick anymore yeah we give you a couple of stubs to weld off that 30 foot of dipstick tubing but what's more accurate and plus once you get more than 6ot horizontal travel it's not very accurate anyway you got oil laying in the line so for the convenience of the capab for procrastinators like me that won't pop the hood of my grand prix to check the transmission fluid that's the oil level sensor standard on the 3000 4,000 it's not available on the 1,00 2000 okay those are the big three modes on the on the left now the ones on the right in yellow prag nostics biggest word I know the reason they've come up with this and it's an option it's in the computer or transmission TCM it's an option that can be turned on and off the reason we have it with synthetic fluid now now we're going 300,000 miles sometimes without a transmission oil change we need these three to see how we doing in between without just waiting for that 300,000 mile Benchmark so that's what we got here we're looking at oil life 99% it's going to read out down to 1% they're looking at the mathematical algorithms the shift density how many times have you shifted it's calculating all that it's going to give you percentage 99% down for 1% once you get past 1% it's going to throw a wrench in the middle next mode is filter life we know the pressure going in oil pressure going in we know the pressure going out if that figure value gets too big and you're going to get a wrench in the middle so we' taken care of the oil life filter life and then the third one is clutch life we've got five clutches in the transmission and uh we're looking at the wear we know how much time it takes for that computer to tell that piston to push that on to get the new gear range if that value gets too big and we're also looking at it's a closed loop system between the clutch the valve body and the valve in there it might be something in there if any of those values get out of whack we're going to throw a wrench in the middle so prognostics we would rather you use those values what you see in the shift selector other than that 300,000 miile Benchmark that's in the manual it's a more precise keep you going that way you can monitor it in uh in a freight liner truck the prognostics option or feature is available on uh the 3000 and 400 000 series Transmissions but freight liner chosen not to re release it or make it available in in the 1,00 2000 Series so it's not an option in that product in a freight liner truck some of your competitors do offer it in a 1,000 2,000 series now for the secret button the mode button it's nothing more than like a toggle switch a convenient place to stick another input something to flip on and off that can be calibrated in the calibration ation a lot of the time the calibrate is performance versus economy or it say might say PTO you push that button your PTO comes on but a lot of times now it won't have that economy performance it'll be the computer is going to take over that decision whether the driver wants to be in performance in other words shifting against the governor or in economy getting about halfway up the power curve the computer takes that over and now it makes the decision whether you should be in performance her economy uh they've gotten some great results out of that lbss load based shift scheduling but I call that the mystery button because somehow the little sticker doesn't get on there a lot of time whether it says PTO or uh economy versus performance now let's see what this guy's going to try to do to your vehicle inhibits we're talking about now 100 mph down the Road it's all he knows driver B and he sees a corner coming up bam he drives it down into first gear going around the corner do you think it's going to go no guy in a yellow shirt he knew he was going won't happen the reason is we have speed sensors we've got three speed sensors on the transmission one in the front middle and rear of the transmission the one on the front sitting about a quarter of an inch away from these bump it's counting the bumps going around so what do you think we're measuring and don't say the bumps that's the last class said that what are we really measuring this side engine RPM then we've got one in the Yeller so we're really measuring turbine speed so we're it's really we're looking at the combination or the the difference between engine and turbine so we're kind of seeing what the load is then we've got one on the output shaft so between the input the out put and everything in between and the computer just said at that 6 to1 downshift at that speed where we were that a't going to happen so we prevented that until his Road speed starts to decline then he will automatically shift to fifth to Fourth to third that type of thing so we hosed him there we inhibited him now next thing he's going to try to do 100 m hour down the road and his buddy blows his doors off being a guy that ain't gonna happen so what's he do sticks to R for race and he'll do it too won't happen same principle is not going to go in reverse speed sensors talking to the computer not logical and until his Road speeds down to about a half a mile hour then it will shift into reverse the next thing he's going to try to do he's warming up the vehicle in the morning in neutral 1,600 RPM foot buried in the throttle and he tries to pop it into drive won't go that speed sensor's got a thing with the computer that says anything above 900 RPM engine speed don't let it go into drive so with these three inhibits little funny stories we're talking about here we just prevented things from coming to a screeching start a screeching stop and from going backwards so those are the big the big three now we've got other other things which we call Electronic inputs and outputs each calibration has got about six or eight inputs and six or eight outputs that can either be wired in using hardwires or a lot of times he we've joined the '90s and they can be wired in through the j1939 let's say you had a bucket truck buckets up Outriggers are down that guy sitting in the passenger seat and Joe's up in the bucket well you know what he's going to try to do put it and drive but we've wired in some inputs that bucket has to be down against the switch signal back to the computer Outriggers up signal back to the computer until those two things are satisfied that truck's not moving there's other examples of uh inputs and outputs that are more than just inhibits and uh Dan's going to talk about some of those others like auton neutral and what are all the things that the guy in a garbage truck has to think about and do you know when he gets out does he have to put his foot on the brake does he have to hit neutral does he have to hit the the high Idol and then he gets out our mission here and uh uh we always tell when we have customers come in think up everything you want that truck to do we do more than spin the output shaft maybe we can help reduce the time maybe he doesn't just have to put his foot on the service break hit the high idle maybe we've got some of our inputs and outputs we can use to cater to his needs and that's very attractive when a lot of these non-user customers come in here they oh you can do that well yeah one other example of an input say you had a jake break engine breake say they didn't have our output reti but you wanted to help them out well we'll take that wire coming out of the jake brake that signal wire and when we see the jake brake come on we will downshift our transmission automatically into a predetermined range get the engine RPMs up makes the jake brake more efficient so those are some of the inputs and outputs that not necessarily just inhibit but help the guy do his work okay your mission this afternoon if you decide to accept it is to go up our hill we had to build that 25% Hill cuz we don't have Hills in Central Indiana okay we're going to talk about torque multiplication and why you don't need those big 14 to1 gear reduction gears okay picture this you're sitting at the bottom of the hill in gear foot buried in the throttle and it's that stage right before you've moved we call that converter stall so what's happen ing there's your red part there's your yellower part we're going to fling the oil from this side to this side but when your wheels are stopped that turbine the turbine shaft the gears are all connected to the wheel so that's not moving yet so we're violently when we send this oil over here violently changing the direction of that oil going through that torque converter turbine it's like cracking a whip when you hear that sound cracking whip you're violently doing something in this case we're violently changing the direction to that oil and then we send that transmission flot through this stator it stops stationary so the purpose of the stator is to redirect the flow of the oil back in the same direction as the torque converter pump to assist the pump okay when this situation occurs which we call converter stall we're going to multiply the engine's torque output torque by two times here's the ma problem for the day say you had 1,000 lb feet of torque coming out of the engine at stall before you start moving up the hill we're going to multiply the engine's torque by two times first gear ratio is about a times four so there's our 8,000 lb feet of torque where you started out at 1,000 lb feet of torque and this doesn't even take into times three or four for your axle ratio so that's kind of the way it adds up but there's where your bang for the buck is and why you don't have to have have those granny gears is because we're doing the multiplying right here instead of waiting till you get in the gear train doing that 14 to1 now you don't want to stay in this condition too long you want to get moving down the road so once you've overcome that 60,000 lbs behind you your turbine shaft starts to move because this is the only way to move the wheels but we also don't have to burn that highend energy all the time once you've got moving so here's here's where the brochure upstairs comes in and says aome transmission matches the power and the load this is it once you start turning the wheels the turbine's Turning now this transmission foot coming over here has to hit a moving Target so it doesn't have that rigid stop surface torque multiplication is going to start to go down but Road speed goes up we call that a thing of beauty around here so we're not burning that highend heat and we're more efficient because we've got Road momentum going down the road okay Dan's going to talk a little more uh later about startability and the values on the right hand side what have you got at the wheels to get you going okay there's only one thing wrong with my physics problem uh in a hydraulic coupling that can't quite go the same speed as that due to energy inefficiencies energy losses in there well the engine manufacturer said well Aon transmission said you were very efficient we're not going to lose anything well we're going to lose a little like that but we came up with an answer we invented the C clamp no we invent came up with a lockup and when we do this is going to occur somewhere when you upshift between second and third range we're going to go into lockup and stay into lockup all the way up into sixth range and then when you downshift somewhere between third and second range we'll go back to that other picture where we can multiply the torque so when we put this lockup clutch or the C clamp on there we got the same stuff over here as we do over here and that's what we want we don't have any spin losses inside there inside we're going to add two components to the lockup or excuse me to the torque inverter lock up clutch plate it's in yellow spline to the turbine piston splin onto the pump what we're going to do is bring transmission foot up from the sump through the center of that turbine shaft into that into this uh piston cavity Under Pressure push that piston against the clutch plate squeezing those two together is like squeezing those two together that's how we bring on lock up hydraulically piece cake huh and for you non-believers out there we have parts that's red that's yellow we put hydraulic in the Piston press that set against the clutch plate the friction material we also have dampener Springs on here so in other words if we're being tied to the engine now we don't want those nasty torsional coming in from the engine so these Springs dampen or lessen the blow of any torsional coming into the transmission system okay so that's lockup when's it come on approximately when you're upshifting between what two gears between second and third once you're in lockup you don't have torque multiplication but you don't need it because you've got momentum down the road so you'll stay in a lock up all the way up into six and somewhere between third and second range you'll go back to what we call converter flow or Torque multiplication you gain one thing when you're in lock up we also now have engine braking if we're tied to the engine it's a great way for engine braking something for everybody all right it's time to figure out how to get the right gears on so the computer's got to make all these decisions on the left is he trying to do the six to1 downshift is the bucket up what's my throttle it's going to send its answer to the valve body in the bottom of the control module we got solenoids getting their answer basically these are traffic cops pushing the valves up and down at a controlled rate all right and what we're trying to do is send our main pressure transmission foot to two clutches to control two gears to get the right gear ratio we're either going to increase the torque or decrease of torque we already talked about j1939 not everything's hardwired these days we've joined the '90s and uh more and more things we're putting on the j1939 it's a more sophisticated system that even got priorities so you have two signals coming into the computer at the same time the the computer makes the decision which one's more important when do I need to get it first okay talk about planetary gears we've got three sets of planetary gears in the transmission they're labeled left to right planetary 1 two and three they've got three gears times three sets so you got nine gears for the engineers to try to figure out how to get six forward ranges so our mission using a hydraulic clutch to rotate one gear hold one gear and our third gear or the result is going to be a different torque whether we increase torque or decrease torque there's our three sets of planetary gears we have five clutches we'll talk about rotating clutches C1 and C2 for clutch and then three stationary clutches so we're going to rotate a gear we have to get rotation in into the gear system from the turbine shaft that's the only way we're going to kind of come through here or there and then we've got three sets of uh stationary clutches okay first range hold a gear drive a gear the third member is my output see how many times I have to rotate my input or engine input to get one revolution out of my output one two 3 four so this is a 4:1 decrease in speed but it's a 4:1 increase in mechanical advantage or Torque so in our math problems at times 4 that was first range then we talk about dropping a clutch and bringing on a clutch now we're going to drive the ring gear hold the Sun Gear my result is still this carrier it's still going slower than the input we're getting closer to one to one by the time we get to Fourth range in all of our Transmissions one to one input and output are the same we just rotate two together and the third one's got to go along for the right at the same speed to get reverse hold the carrier doesn't matter whether the put is this one or that one the other one's going to go backwards that's how we get reverse out of here to get overdrive hold a gear drive a Gear watch my blue Sun Gear it's going a lot faster my output's going a lot faster than my input absolutely no torque Advantage here but you're not pulling stumps out of the ground in fifth and sixth range either now we talk about holding a clutch we use stationary clutches that C3 through five we pick one of those hydraulic press pressure from the valve body against the Piston squeeze clutch plates together this pink piston we're pushing to the left squeeze the clutch plates together one set of the steel reactionary plates are spined into the case as an anchor so whatever is being connected on the inside when we squeeze them together it's getting anchored to the case so those are stationary clutches and we've got three of them then we've got like we said we got to get input in here so coming down the turbine shaft we're going to pick that rotating clutch or that rotating clutch same principle clutch plates a hub this time because we've got to drive something so it's usually one rotating clutch on one stationary clutch on and that's how we're getting our gear ratio okay you're just through day three or day five class smooth huh just we'll keep going all right for you that like to play along at home here's the X chart the X's represent which clutches are on in which range you notice that in neutral we've got a clutch on whether we go to a forward range or reverse range we're going to use that clutch and we would rather not as a quality thing bring on two clutches at the same time to kind of take a dip in main pressure so that's what we're doing okay here's the eye chart for the day only one eye chart we talk about a wide ratio versus a close ratio transmission maybe you've got an R RDS unit rugged Duty that's got that wider first gear than a close ratio maybe a highway spatial or HS here's where it's happening right there Highway special maybe a a close ratio wide ratio 4 and a half to one versus three and a half to one I put this chart up here because some people in the past say oh give me that give me that four and a half to one because I know I'm going to get a deeper reverse look at this all our reverses are about one to one or excuse me five to one so your bang for the buck is up here not here as you can see in this chart all our fourth ranges are one to one so whether you have a wide ratio or close ratio by the time you get to Fourth range they're all one to one anyway now the only difference somebody said was it a whole different transmission no it's all in this last planetary they make the Sun Gear bigger planet gear smaller and that gives you ratio difference between a wide ratio and a close ratio okay in summary a torque converter it's a hydraulic coupling it multiplies the torque in the lower range somewhere between second and third range you go into lockup when you do you're tying the turbine and the pump together basically we're tied to the engine now you'll stay in a lock up up into sixth range good engine braking somewhere between third and second range you'll go back to the torque converter flow where you can multiply the torque then we've got three sets of planetary gears five clutches that's how you're going to determine your mechanical ratio okay done talking about gears let's talk about buzzwords PTO engine driven PTO converter driven PTO or turbon driven PTO the 3000 and 4,000 series Transmissions are engine driven PTO which means that's your responsibility over here it's in Red so our converter pump drives the PTO gear through those tanks the PTO gear drives the charging pump up here no PTO about four or five inches shorter the PT or the torque converter pump drives the charging pump with no PTO gear in so engine driven whatever the engine speed is that's your PTO speed and if you're still wondering if you got a PTO unit on the truck crawl underneath it see if you got this access door two of them if you do you do and if you don't have the access door you don't have a PTO now that's a little different than our 1,00 2000 we didn't have the convenience of sticking four or five extra inches out here so they had to put the PTO gear right up here on our rotating clutch module at turbine speed you get the access door whether you have a PTO or not notice that's the only place that we can measure turbine speed so we're measuring that PTO gear if you bought a transmission without a PTO gear how do you measure turbine speed you have a tone wheel so you either have a tone wheel or you have a PTO gear but in any case you got the access door there on the 3000 and 4,000 car underneath the truck if you got the door the access plate you got a PTO if you don't have one you don't have a PTO so that's kind of the Difference Engine driven versus uh converter driven or turbine driven now we also say you had a stationary uh condition where you wanted to run this transmission at engine speed we have an option neutral lockup so now flip the switch neutral lockup which means those two are tied together the torque converter pump and turbine now your PTO gear is running at engine speed question I was gonna ask you what the difference is between converter and turb speed uh well it's kind of a colloquialism when we talk about converter driven we're talking about turbine driven exactly the same thing except when we go into lockup then the torque converter turbine and the engine are acting as one and now you are at engine speed so so when you're not in lockup there is a difference between turbine and engine speed so you situation where you needed hydraulic a hydraulic pump running off of a PTO and a 2000 series transmission that you were operating at low RPM would you have enough converter speed to run that okay I'm going to repeat the question just for the benefit of those that are watching the video um the question is if you had a a high load running off the PTO in this case your example is a hydraulic pump do you have enough speed to operate that pump without neutral lock up at idle and the answer is it depends on the load the the load on the PTO is no different than having a load on the output if you get enough of a load it will stall the turbine shaft and it'll take some amount of torque out of the out of the engine to start the the PTO moving depends on the load how much that is um the neutral lockup feature is set up so that you have to be above 900 RPM before neutral lockup can come on on and once you get to that point then it's direct drive one to one and and it will as long as your PTO load does not exceed the limitations of the specs you'll be in good shape and it'll stay engaged in lock up until you get below 800 RPM uh but but you know as to what speed of the engine it takes to run the PTO um question came up with landscapers that do a lot of Sall work yeah they a front on or well and that's a little bit different situation because now uh when they're plowing they're in gear so it isn't the load on the PTO that's stalling the torque converter it's the load of the PTO and the output of the transmission combined and the issue there typically is you know regardless of what the load is when you're at the end of a run you're pushing snow you get to the end of the run it's time to raise the plow and move back if the vehicle stopped and you're in gear the PTO gear is not turning period so there is no they can't raise the blade when they're stopped that's that's a that's a that's a matter of physics with a turbine driven or a converter driven PTO there's no way around that did that answer the question I know it I know it doesn't doesn't make it work any any better or any different but that that's the the physics of a turban driven PTO so they'd have to stop put it in neutral to raise in that scenario you either that or start start backing up and as you start backing up the the gear is going to start turning then you raise it as you back up okay that's why Dan here he's the smart one it's kind of like good cop bad cop all right uh last slide and then I want to uh build up the entire three sets of planetary gears for a 1,00 2000 I was talking about how easily it's assembled and disassembled well let you see it for yourself but the the last slide is adaptive control this is kind of like the black box or the flight recorder in an airplane the computer knows what your shift looked like and if it didn't think it was perfect the next time you make that shift it's going to try to make it better and keep improving on that so this is what we're going to talk about and each uh gear change the second to third the third to Fourth up shifts down shift they've all kind of got a different looking picture inside the computer but let's just pick the two to three upshift looking at turbine speed or basically our load over time and that's what the computer says is perfect so we're coming along with our shift one big engine flare flavor so that computer said that probably was not perfect the next time you make that same second to third sh uh range uh shift I'm going to try to make a big jump to get you down to that perfect shift point it may take four or five big jumps or four or five times of you shifting from second to third range but it's always trying to improve it there's three specific cases uh where this really comes in and uh helps smooth this out and while you're driving the trucks you have a clue that this thing's even working it just works okay three different cases you got 60,000 lbs behind you in a dump truck you dump your load and you come back to the barn empty it's going to drive a little different little load change than what you had before the computer's going to going to smooth that out try to smooth that out or let's say you had 10 million miles on those clutch plates and it's taking a little more computer time to push those clutch plates together to hold that gear for your next range it's going to try to speed up that time or your third case my favorite different drivers you have driver a and you've got driver B and we say they have different foot characteristics driver B's just hammering it either on the throttle off so he's putting a kind of a different load or that turbine uh parameter than driver a but between full load coming back to the barn empty worn clutch components different driver that's what the Adaptive control is for now the reason we spent a lot of time in our service training classes teaching the technici about that is if a guy brings a truck into the shop says I got a bad two to three up ship the the service manager shouldn't say well tear it down and see what's wrong with it no what he should do is hand the guy the keys tell him to go out and uh play the radio drive the truck keep making that two to three upshift and see if it comes in and converges if it gets smoother we know that's the Adaptive control uh changing that for you if it's not then we go to the next step so that's the Adaptive control it's like the black box or the flight recorder in an airplane all right the last thing what's build up three sets of planetary gears in the transmission this looks kind of intimidating when you come in the room why would you as a customer want all these gears how easy is it to put it together this is how easy the engine's down there this is the yellow yellow turbine shaft rotating clutch module PTO gear and the first Sun Gear of the three sets of planetary gears we add to that planetary 1 ring gear here's your carrier of the first planetary in the middle and here's the ring gear of the second planetary okay throw in a bearing or two here's the second carrier and the the ring gear for the third planetary now we're going to add the blue shaft in there which is the main shaft and Sun Gear for planetary 2 and three now we've got the sunar GE and the ring gear so we're just missing the carrier and on this one we got a park paw so on some of the 1,00 2,000 units below 33,000 GVW you physically put it in park it physically puts it in park park brake there's our third carrier and there is our three sets of planetary gears and it's about that easy when it's guys tearing it down in the shop too I'm in a clean room condition here I'm not on my back if they're doing it still in the vehicle but on our Transmissions we can load half the stuff from the front half the stuff from the back so if you got something back there that needs to be looked at you don't have to take everything out the front to get to it easily accessible so in recap in our 5day service cling training class we talked about different drivers we talked about the torque converter that it multiplies the engine's force in the lower ranges when you go into lockup we're tying the uh torque converter pump and the turbine together uh three sets of planetary gears to get a different gear range we're holding a gear driving a gear getting the different ratio we've got a lot of electronics in here half of us to keep driver B from doing bad stuff the other is to help kind of manicure or cater to the uh customer customer to get the vehicle to do what it wants and we provide more than just rotating the output cha questions comments constructive criticism all right well thank you for your time and this is Dan Murphy Like I said he's the smart one of the two mom raised him different but she dresses us the same here's thank you Bruce all right let's take this apart while we're okay as Bruce said my name is Dan Murphy I'm uh I made my living from Alison transmissions for about 33 years um I started out as a technician uh all I worked on Moralis and transmissions for about 15 years before I came to Allison I was in the service organization quality uh for uh a number of years and then the last five and a half years living the dream as OEM account manager with responsibility for the dier truck North America account um the topics we're going to cover today are based on myself and Joe Johansson a lot of you guys I sure have worked with he is application engineer that works strictly with freightliner trucks in Western Star and we get calls from dealer sales guys from our own field sales guys from the Freightliner Factory guys CAE group um different questions we kind of went through you know what are the things that are are what are the common themes of questions we get that we can cover while we've got all you guys together um we came up with four topics that we're going to cover in just a 25 or 30 minutes here uh one of them is startability ratio coverage and axle ratio selection has to do with the torque inverter and and how that differs radically from how you spec a vehicle without a torque converter very briefly we're going to talk about shift schedule selection uh park brake Auto neutral there have been some complexities introduced recently based on some different op options on how it's implemented and some changes in the way it's implemented in a freight Lin or truck and then finally we'll walk through uh Allison optimized in Spec Pro and what from my perspective is not so intuitive step that you need to take to make sure you have access to the Allison optimized package and the incentives to go along with it so with that um on the the ratio coverage and axle ratio selection question a lot of times we get calls on this after the fact which is is unfortunate but customer that is has a lot of uh experience and history with a manual transmission they know what axle ratios they ran with a manual they know what first gear ratio what overdrive or or top gear ratio they had they look at the Allison compare ratios and especially when it gets to first gear they look at it and they can't believe that they would be able to do with five speeds or six speeds instead of 10 or more and looking at the first gear ratio their concern is they're going to have a truck that won't get out of its own way because of the the looking at the ratio coverage um so uh what we're going to do the these same customers uh we bring them in here and do what you're going to do this afternoon take them over to the test track they get a 70,000 lb truck drive it halfway up the hill stop and then restart and climb up over that hill with no problem doing the same thing in a fully loaded truck with a manual transmission there would be smok and parts rolling out from underneath the thing so they're in all of how that and they don't understand uh how it works but the difference is the torque inverter Bruce talked about the 2 to1 ratio uh multiplication at stall but there's another feature of the way the torque converter works that is equally important so we're going to talk about that you can't just look at first gear versus first gear and obviously the correct a ratio has a lot of implications there there is no free lunch there is always a tradeoff you want to get the engine speed as low as as you can at cruise for fuel economy but if you go too far you end up a truck that doesn't perform on the low end so to kind of set the stage with a couple of simplistic examples with a manual transmission Top Gear direct driver one: one first gear 10:1 and in this example an axle ratio of 4:1 if you look at the overall ratio coverage that gives you 10:1 first gear 4 to1 in the uh rear axle 40 times the torque available at the rear axle versus what's coming out of the engine in Top Gear no torque multiplication in the transmission because your direct drive you still have the 4:1 in the rear axle so a 4:1 ratio um at the rear axle the overall ratio in first gear or the 40 times multiplication is what you need to get the load rolling the grunt to get you out of the hole in Top Gear the overall Rao is what determines where your engine speed is going to be at Cruise pretty Elementary right so now let's look at an overdrive still a manual transmission we've traded the Top Gear of direct drive for an overdrive of 08 to1 our first gear ratio is 8 to1 look at the overall ratio coverage first gear 8:1 now we've changed the rear axle in order to get the same engine RPM at Cruise you go to a 5 to1 in the rear axle Top Gear is8 5 to1 in the rear axle so the overall ratio coverage if both of these Transmissions is identical these trucks would perform identically just illustrates the importance of two Transmissions with radically different ratios you can make them operate the same with a change in the axle ratio but now let's look at the same thing with a manual versus an automatic with a torque converter ratios on these Transmissions are out of Transmissions available in Spec Pro Top Gear 73 to1 the ratio coverage of 16.7 we'll give you you'll see on the next slide a first gear ratio of 12.19 our rear axle ratio in this example is 383 so if we wanted to take customer out of that truck running manuals put him into an automatic look at what ra what rear axle ratio to use first thing we look at is well let's see what it would look like with the ratio that gives him the same engine RPM at Cruise in this example we're going to use a 4,000 HS which is a close ratio transmission Top Gear overdrive 64 to1 versus the 73 so we had to go to a 438 reare axle that gives you the same engine RPM at Cruise now let's look at what it does with the torque for the low end again that ratio coverage of 16.7 gives you a first gear ratio is 12.19 on the manual we've got our 383 rear axle so 46 to 4 7 times the torque at the rear axle versus what the engine's putting out with the automatic You' got the torque converter we've got the 2:1 stall ratio so we multiply by two first gear is only 3 and2 to 1 compared to 1219 but we made our adjustment of 438 in the rear axle to get the RPM adjusted so we've got 30 times 31 times the torque available at the rear axle so which one of these is going to have the advantage in terms of the torque available to launch the load the manual so usually everybody's afraid to insult the guest so they say automatic here the manual is what it would look like here but what you're not considering is one of the key advantages of the torque converter not just in the ratio coverage but in the way it works the difference in the torque converter the torque conver inverter has what we call a a stall speed and all of the torque converters are matched to the engines but typically they'd be in this 14 to 1700 RPM range so that means that as soon as you put your foot on the throttle to get the load rolling the engine immediately goes up to a speed that's at or near the peak torque of the engine compare that to with a manual transmission Eaton says correct gear will allow you to start with your foot off the throttle so you need to get the load rolling the essentially at idle speed caterpillar says no throttle at start motor truck engineering handbook says launch the engine with 800 RPM Max all of the diesel engines have this engagement torque spec that's used for transmission uh for analysis on manual equipped Transmissions uh amts are essentially the same range usually it's in the 650 to 800 RPM range so what does that mean uh this is a brochure right off the internet happens to be the Volvo engine D13 the dd13 the Detroit Diesel cumin all of the diesel engines essentially would be the same in terms of advertising some kind of start engagement torque in this case it's a 1350 ft-lb engine the start engagement torque for a manual or AMT 850 foot-pounds at 800 RPMs with a torque converter on the other hand our start torque would be at Peak torque of the engine so 1350 RPM so now let's do that math again the manual 850 RPM to launch times 1 129 rear axle 383 or excuse me 1219 first gear 383 rear axle so we got about 40,000 foot-pounds of torque available at the axle with the automatic being able to launch at Peak torque of the engine 1350 coming in two times multiplication in the torque converter so now who has the advantage come on you were ready to insult me who has the advantage thank you okay 5% more okay now this is this is looking at a 1350 ft-lb engine so relatively low rated engine the bigger you go the bigger the Gap if you take that same engine now you go to a 1650 foot-pound rating nothing changes the manuals are still starting at or near idle now you got 1,650 to start with so the Gap grows okay you begin to see how you can get a 70,000 lb load rolling on a 25% grade with a torque inverter versus a manual transmission with a clutch now typically in those applications that are going to see that kind of thing where the startability is really going to be critical is you know a dump truck a refu packer a concrete mixer something where you're going to use a close or excuse me a wide ratio transmission instead of close ratio so now instead of the 3 and 1/2 to one that we had on the close ratio let's go to a 4500 R RDS wide ratio with a 4.7 to1 first gear and look at the same thing nothing's changed on the manual we've got the 1650 ft-lb engine we got 4.7 first gear now instead of 3 and 1 half to one so the Gap again keeps getting higher and again this is something that uh needs to be considered as the axle ratio in the overall vehicle spec is considered because what it does is gives you flexibility but one of the things you might say is okay but once you get the load rolling you got more gear shorter steps the manual is going to have the advantage but the reality is you still have the power interrupts you still have the inefficiencies of losing turbo boost having to recover the lost momentum during the shifts 0 to 20 mph a manual transmission might make five six seven shifts getting a fully loaded truck going up to 20 mph that time when when the uh 4500 RDS with a torque inverter would still would be in in torque inverter phase we keep the engine up there at the peak torque the entire time always have torque to the rear wheels keep the load rolling so what it gives you though is flexibility in terms of ratio coverage if we look at that same chart we just looked at 71% more torque available now you know we speced it so that we had the same engine RPM at Cru well we got all this torque to start the load let's look at uh making an adjustment so that we got lower engine RPM at Cruise better fuel economy while at the same time having more torque available so if we go from 438 to a 411 nothing's changed there we've lost some torque in terms of launching the lad but still more than we probably need we can uh we got 61% more torque available to launch the load but now we're running the the engine 7% lower so you it gives you some flexibility in terms of setting up the vehicle spec um doing what you can the Detroit diesel engines absolutely love running at those lower speeds at Cruise we've got some Vehicles out there running very successfully 1150 RPM Crews 1100 RPM Crews and doing a nice job still have great start ability with a torque converter for launch there are other considerations you can't infinitely reduce the axle ratio numerically lower axle ratio to get lower engine speed at some point uh you run into to issues you have to make sure you maintain enough you have enough power and torque to maintain your six gear at Cruise it doesn't do you any good to lower the engine speed but then every time you hit a slight grade in the road you end up dropping down into fifth gear uh you lose whatever Advantage you might have had from the lower axle ratio but again it gives you flexibilities I scan is a great tool that does the analysis that gives you the great ability at Cruise gives you the startability allows you to look and understand what the tradeoffs are and come up with the best spec for the customer okay uh shift schedules we're not going to spend a lot of time on this other than to say that there are a blue million different shift schedules available can be as complex as you want to make it my recommend my recommendation is let the engineers do their job uh the Joe Johansson's and the his counterparts from Cummins and and Detroit Diesel along with the Freightliner Truck engineering guys for every epa10 Engine with an Allison Transmission they've gone out there and they've done the work and they have recommended sh schedules that are in the system and unless you ask or tell us to give you something different you're going to get what they recommend in most cases you're not going to be able to do better than that there may be some exceptions and if you think there are give us a call let's talk about it but for the most part this adds a lot of complexity that you guys really don't need to worry about so my recommendation is when you get to the 343 codes you see that long list and there's some that say S1 primary S5 secondary just just don't worry about that stuff and don't write in your own recommendation as a as a line item uh request for the C group uh sixspeed versus 5-speeds for virtually any truck that's 33,000 lb and above you can come up with a better spec in terms of both performance and fuel economy using a six-speed than you can a five-speed and we've had guys that say well I got a customer has been running a 5-speed he's perfectly happy with it he likes where his engine's running at Cruise he doesn't want another overdrive he doesn't want it to run any lower than that well let's put a six-speed in there change the axle ratio so it's the same RPM at Cruise now you've improved the performance on the low end which not only gives them better productivity but you get into lock up sooner which means better fuel economy so and again in in almost all cases you you can get a better spec with a sixspeed than a five speed there I'm sure are exceptions and I just say if if you think you got one give us a call let's talk about it um you get below 30,000 lbs uh you got enough engine horsepower and torque to get adequate performance there may be an argument where a 5-speed makes better sense um on those lighter Vehicles there are less spin bosses in five five-speed than sixspeed uh but again above you know in the bigger trucks class high class 7even and class eight you're you're uh generally better off excuse me you're generally better off with a six-speed uh Park breake Auto neutral we we've uh we've got data logs a lot of data that shows that operators more often than you can imagine with a fully automatic transmission will pull up to the Quicky Mart set the park brake hop out go get his cup of coffee chat Lulu up come back out a half hour later hop in the cab still in gear release the parking brake and drive off he's been sitting there idling in gear for half hour Burns about twice as much fuel IDL in gear than it would have in neutral you don't burn a lot of fuel with no load but in today's environment customers will take whatever little bit of fuel economy you can give them so the park brake Auto neutral takes that out of the driver's hand puts it in neutal saves him whatever amount doesn't really matter how much just the fact that it's better uh is something that's important this is a relatively uh easy thing to spec and it's becoming very close to standard one of the complexities of the park breake Auto neutral is there are several different options that are catered to the way the vehicles are operated uh these two options though are are the most common they're they're kind of basic the top one is auto neutral single input it's what was on a freight liner truck for years it's done with a pressure Swit switch in the air brake circuit with a hard wire going through the transmission bulkhead connector to the transmission controller when we see the park brakes on we put the transmission in neutral in order to get out of neutral the operator had to do two things had to release the parking brake and select gear if you fast forward then to today and it's my understanding that all the multiplex trucks with EPA 10 engines which is most of the the lineup of trucks you see out there on the test track uses this bottom One auto neutral single input with shift selector override the differences are instead of being hardwired it's j1939 it's it's Multiplex it gets a it just sees a message from the uh brake controller instead of a a pressure switch closing and sending a hard wire message we see that message from the brake controller command the transmission to neutral the difference in the way it operates is now to get out gear even if the park brake is still on if the operator selects a gear it goes in it goes to range so a difference in the way it operates even though you may spec the truck exactly the way you speced it two years ago it may operate a little bit different so something to be aware of can can we fix it back can you fix it the I guess uh I'm not sure the question is can you fix it and I think the argument would be it's it it isn't something that would be fixed can you make it work the other way that from an Allison perspective the wire will still accept that hard wire and it can be done it would take a a a different calibration that didn't have the j1939 turned on for this feature and would take adding the pressure switch and the wire freightliner trucks position is that they're not going to offer the hardwired version and their their uh argument is there are times when when uh you want to override this feature in an emergency situation you need to get the vehicle out of the way you may want to override it if you lost air pressure or whatever the case may be so they won't offer it anyway other than the j1939 uh everything is on the vehicle though if if aftermarket bodybuilder whatever wanted to change it um the other complexity is there is some Legacy that's still in some of the compat rules in Spec Pro that uh were just uncovered recently and get into specking the uh Allison optimized package uh the Allison optimized packages I think you probably all are are at least aware of uh they've been part of uh at least three different webinars they've been part of these dealer meetings the last couple of years um all of the packages include Park break Auto neutral this sheet is one of uh at least three that are out on uh sales Center but it shows the rules if you will of the Allison optimize what vehicles what uh vocational segments truck models and Transmissions apply uh gives the retail discounts which are pretty significant pretty uh aggressive $800 to $5,600 retail if there are any a84 vocational segment restrictions they're listed here if there are any aa3 body type restrictions they're listed here and then the different uh codes depending on whether you want a five-speed or a six-speed so all of that's out on salale Center the complexity comes in when you go to spec and and spec proo and this slide is right from uh Brian Daniels uh webinar three or four weeks ago Brian Daniels and Greg Tran uh used this Slide the first three steps are pretty intuitive off of that sheet that describes the program and the restrictions if you select an a E4 uh vocational segment an A3 body type that qualify and a transmission that's included in whatever chassis that you're specking everything's pretty simple at that point then you get into this next section which is not so intuitive has to do with the legacy of the hardwired auto neutral there is still a compat rule that requires that if you have a uh if you want a 343 code with auto neutral you have to bring in this 882 module which I believe the description is something like uh two valve park brake with auto neutral but essentially it's the pressure switch and wire that you needed on the old hardwired version so you have to pull in that 88218 or 021 and then you have to go to the uh 34C module which is the transmission bulkhead connector and select the 34C 001 2 or three depending on the location of that bulkhead connector you don't use those with the j1939 implementation but it's still a legacy that they're working to correct until that's done you got to do this if you're going to get the access to the Allison optimized packages so just walking through it quickly uh the a84 codes this example is a 4500 RDS non mun dump in an m2112 the a84 four restrictions are construction and Road and Highway Maintenance aa3 uh end dump ver and uh front plow with an end dump transmission is a 4500 RDS then you get into the not so intuitive part the 882 module one valve park brake system with Dash control valve Auto neutral and wiring indicator or two park brake system same thing got to have one of those two and you have to select one of those 3 34C codes 001 2 or three once you've done that when you go to the 343 section you'll have access to the 343 codes with the Allison optimize package select one of those you'll get the discount you'll also get the additional coverage Five Years on everything except 3,000 and 4,000 HS in a tractor in which case you get seven-year coverage questions you're Grant either you already knew that and you've been than well and I'll tell you it's uh it I was pulling my hair out trying to understand it where this kind of got uncovered was uh uh the guys in marketing ran a query of uh all the vehicle speced this year with Allison Transmissions both built and in backlog looked at the ECT comparing it to the sheet that shows the different uh restrictions the a84 and and aa3 and and and IO package restrictions um and looked at okay out of all these trucks how many of them that appear to qualify that appear to mean all the requirements or restrictions in the Allison optimize program how many actually had the Allison optimiz uh code selected and therefore got the discount and the extended coverage it was around 20% part of it is they get in there and they don't see it because of this this Quirk that uh you guys now know and understand and uh I think in the past a lot of guys haven't so hopefully it's helpful hopefully it gets corrected uh very quickly so any other questions I come we haven't talked about the seven speed why haven't we talked about the seven speed you're talking about the 4,000 uh the 4700 specifically and the reason frankly is that the sspeed is not released in a Freightliner Truck uh I understand that there is a active program or or uh uh par in the system to put the 4700 in the Coronado SD um I've heard late this year but I don't know that there is a date uh that's been announced you'd have to ask the the product strategy guys that but I think there is a plan there there's it's recognized that there is demand customers have asked for it but today the 4700 is not not released in the freight liner it is in the star it is in the Western Star that's correct question comment was it's a great concrete transmission I'll repeat that again for the video it's a great concrete truck transmission any other questions yes um the uh automated manual people have criticized Alison's Coast performance like when we're talking about highway fuel mileage one of the arguments they're making is that when you Coast down a hill with an H typ transmission you would be you know you would not be losing any of your accumulated Road speedum the hill the because it turns backwards con and it how would you answer that question well I'm going to repeat your question you said that the uh the AMT folks have criticized the Allison because uh coasting down a hill the torque converter turns backwards um I guess first of all I don't believe they understand the physics of a torque converter because nothing turns backwards and when you're cruising down the speed anytime uh as Bruce went through earlier the torque inverter is in its fluid coupling torque multiplication mode when you launch depending on the load uh and the speed you'll usually make a first to SEC one to two shift and then sometime in second gear it'll shift into lockup from that point on it's a mechanical P link there there there it is the same as having a clutch applied up there in fact that's exactly what it is so mechanically and physically it's it's a mechanical link to the engine it's direct drive uh it depends on the the speed at which it locks up the torque converter locks up depends on the axle ratio the load uh but uh typically certainly below 20 mph and typically below 15 M hour but at highway speeds always the torque converter is going to be locked up and it's a direct mechanical link so there is no difference no yeah so I I'd like to have that debate with them but don't know where they're coming from he said lock up only occurred I thought lock up started on four five and six now three uh I think your question is second and third lockup comes on verses four five and six now we you know we want to get lock up on as soon as you have enough Tractive effort to keep the load accelerating without the benefit of the torque multiplication we need that torque multiplication to get the load rolling that's how we do with fewer number of Gears than than a manual but once you get it rolling and we can handle with mechanical ratios the steps to to keep the speed increasing we lock it up as soon as we can so you can lock up 30 second or 30 absolutely absolutely yeah driving them you don't notice it because between the shifts the engine changes when uh once the torque converter does lock up it never comes off it doesn't come off in between the shifts it stays on all the way up through sixth gear and back down we don't interrupt lock up to make a shift for example uh once it comes on it stays on okay but fourth is is always locked up fourth is always direct drive one: one ratio and yes it's always in lock up in fourth but it can lock up in second and third it can and does lock up in second and third driving it doesn't always lock up in second yeah I think your comment is you don't it's driving it it isn't it isn't obvious when lockup comes on and off lockup feels6 I can tell it but I can't tell it second third yeah well when it comes up the lockup shift typically feels like any other shift except where you might drop 300 RPM on a range shift it'll only drop 150 RPM or so uh so yeah maybe uh when you're out there on a test track play around a little bit and uh but it isn't it isn't I mean it doesn't feel any different to the guy driving a truck than any other shift really competition wise have you been able to dissect the caterpillar tx31 um the question is have we been able to dissect the cx31 and and uh you know that product's been around uh for a long time in off Highway applications uh they made a run at it on the on Highway um I think it's fair to say we got a pretty good idea what's inside that box um we think we got a good product that can run up against it anywhere they put it um and it looks like we're going to get the opportunity to prove that uh in in some additional applications here in the pretty near [Music] future
