All Israel Shall be Saved: Interpretations of Romans 11

[Music] welcome to Christ the center your weekly conversation of reformed theology we're now on episode number 594 my name's Camden Busey serve as the pastor of hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church and none other than Grayslake Illinois and I'm delighted to be back today with a good friend who have Glenn Cleary who is pastor of Providence OPC in Pflugerville Texas welcome back Glenn it's good to have you with me thanks Camden it's always good to be here yes and Pflugerville for those who know is just a little bit north of Austin guess it's called an Austin suburb right Austin has suburbs it does yes and it is yeah and so we're delighted to have you with us today we're gonna be speaking about a big time topic when we haven't actually spoken about directly in 594 episodes which is quite astounding we're going to be speaking about interpretations of Romans 11 Glenn has recently been preaching through the book of Romans I hope to be doing that I kind of started a series in earnest on Easter Sunday looking at Romans 1 1 through 7 in two parts morning and evening and as we move forward as soon as I wrap up some of my other series I'm gonna be dipping in and starting starting to preach Romans and but do it in a really slow and careful way as we ought to do but I'll get to it when I get to it but Romans 11 is one of those key passages which talk about Israel and the church and that certainly is an important subject and one that comes up quite frequently not just in theological discussions but even in in regards to the relationship of the church in the state and different eschatological views and what the hopes are for the future and how our nation ought to or be involved in that or not of course we're very mournful and sad over some recent events that have happened in our country and in our church the orthodox presbyterian church reform forum is an independent organization but a lot of our board members and a lot of our panelists are Orthodox Presbyterian ministers and so with that regard I do want to read at least a public statement regarding the shooting at the Habad synagogue out in Southern California so I'll read that now you can find this at OPC org for the moment it's OPC org slash feature dot html' this is written by the Reverend John van meer Beck who is the moderator of the 85th General Assembly and the Reverend Ross Graham who was stated clerk of the 85th General Assembly so it should be understood the OPC doesn't have a president or anybody who's in charge of the denomination but it's run by a General Assembly which is made up of commissioners from our various presbyteries so ruling elders and ministers who are commissioned to unto that service but once the General Assembly concludes it doesn't exist anymore we do have standing committees of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church that carry on the business denominational business day-to-day week-to-week until the next General Assembly is it's called but these are the men that would be most appropriate as figureheads so to speak the current moderator of the last assembly and the stated clerk of the last assembly and they write this on April 27th in an act of vicious and deplorable hatred and violence a gunman entered a synagogue in Southern California and proceeded to open fire on the gathered worshippers killing one and wounding three others before he was driven from the building sadly the 19 year old shooter John Ernest was a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church a pastor Zachary our keel and the session of our hundred member Escondido Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Escondido California issued the following statement concerning that horrific events the atrocious crime of violence and hatred that took place at Habad of po-wei synagogue on Saturday April 27th grieves us deeply and shatters our hearts as a congregation of the Lord Jesus Christ we devote our lives to the love and mercy of the Lord to all of God's beautiful children from every nation language and tribe our most sincere prayers condolences and cares go out to the victims their loved ones and the congregation of Chabad we deplore and resist all forms of anti-semitism and racism we are wounded to the core that such an evil could have gone out from our community such hatred has no place in any part of our beliefs or practices for we seek to shape our whole lives according to the love and gospel of Jesus Christ and quote we join the session and congregation of Escondido OPC to express the sincere sympathies and grief of all Orthodox Presbyterians to the people of Chabad of po-wei in their great loss and heartache and along with our Escondido congregation we condemn in strongest terms the sentiments of anti-semitism and racist hatred which apparently motivated the shooter such beliefs are contrary to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and have no place within our system of doctrine or in the teachings and practices of our church we believe that God created man male and female in his own image and knowledge righteousness and holiness and in love we offer the gospel of the grace of God in Jesus Christ to every human being may God grant comfort to all who have been affected by this tragic and deplorable act and may he help all of us as his image bearers to love our neighbor as ourselves for the Orthodox presbyterian church the reverend john d van meer beck moderator of the 85th general assembly the reverend ross w graham stated clerk of the 85th General Assembly so we're very thankful for this statement and such a terrible and trying time and today at least we seek to look into Romans chapter 11 for an important reason one being that many news reports many might be an overstatement there have been news reports and there have been people that have been commenting upon the theology of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church there is no explicit stated eschatology or explicit stated view that you can go to our confession and say the view of the OPC on the Jews that you're not going to find anything like that we are committed to the inerrant and infallible Word and what God has said in all of Scripture and especially in Romans 11 and we do have a whole set of different views that have an impact upon how we view the future and what God has planned particularly through our covenant allah-allah G but one tremendously inaccurate depiction or description of the views that are represented within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church is that we hold our pastor Zachary keel or anyone at the church that was affected or where the shooter came from and where the shooter was a member was that they hold to were at least sympathetic with what's called a replacement theology now in the kernel of this of a replacement theology is that the church has replaced Israel and there is no more any plan or purpose for ethnic Jews or no planned purpose for the nation of Israel in the future that God has he's done with them it's been put aside and now God is concerned with the church apologize for my coughing but this is a tremendous misunderstanding and this is incorrect theology I for one have no place in my theology for replacement theology or the idea that the church replaces the state but that Jesus Christ is he's the route that comes the chute that comes up from the stump of Jesse and as an ethnic Jew he is a true the ultimate Jew the faithful promised son and now all who believe in him whether Jew or Gentile no matter what their ethnicity or what their bloodline is may be found and incorporated into Christ Christ is the root and so that is true for all of ethnic Israel and that believes upon Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior as their Messiah and it's true for people like you and me Glenn who do not have at least to our knowledge much if any actual ethnic Jewish blood now I'm a European I don't have any Jewish blood in me but I nevertheless and part of the family of God by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and I'm United to him and therefore as as Paul describes in the book of Romans I've been as an unnatural branch grant grab grafted into the olive tree whose root is is Christ and I abide in him and so there are many different questions regarding actual ethnic Jews is there a future for ethnic Jews who presently do not believe in Jesus and that is that is directly our subject matter today as we look at Romans 11 so Glenn how would you approach this this subject and would have been some things that you've been investigating and studying and speaking with your congregation regarding Romans chapter 11 well canden you said earlier that I have been recently preaching through Romans that is true but I've also been preaching through Romans for the last couple of years right so that's when I started this series in the summer of 2017 and I'm currently in Romans 13 and when I was back in chapter 11 I did four sermons I believe in Romans 11 and so we took our time as a congregation going slowly through this chapter and I took my time as a minister studying the chapter very carefully reading a variety of commentaries and articles and books on the subject and just looking at the different views that are out there and assessing the strengths and weaknesses of those different views and of course there is a debate concerning the interpretation of Romans 11 and that debate centers around the meaning of the saying in verse 26 all Israel will be saved and particularly what does Paul mean when he says all Israel right there are a variety of interpretations of that particular phrase and one minister named Homer Robertson wrote an article a while back it's actually a chapter in a book that was published in 1979 the book is entitled perspectives on Evan Jellicle theology and the chapter in the book is called is there a distinctive future for ethnic Israel in Romans 11 and in that article Robertson lays out five different views given an answer to that question or five different interpretations of Rome is 1126 all Israel will be saved yeah can we read the text perhaps that think that might be useful um would you like me to read it or would you care to read oh I can I can dive in and just read the whole thing that might be useful as we set the stage yeah that I think it would be great if you would read it and there there are if I can just note a couple of verses that I think are especially important in this discussion maybe you can read those verses one through five first of all maybe we can begin let's do that I asked then has God rejected his people by no means for I myself AM an Israelite a descendant of Abraham a member of the tribe of Benjamin God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah how he appeals to God against Israel Lord they have killed your prophets they have demolished your altars and I alone am left and they seek my life but what is God's reply to him I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the need of bail or Baal so to at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace that was verses one through five there very good so that Paul raises a question and then gives an answer to it the question here is has got rejected as people his answer is by no means and then he goes on to explain why it is the case that God has not rejected his people of Israel the next verses that I think are especially relevant to the discussion today are verses 11 through 15 sure I'll take those on so I ask did they stumble in order that they might fall by no means rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous now if their trespass means riches for the world and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles how much more will their full inclusion mean now I'm speaking to you Gentiles in as much then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous and thus save some of them for if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead again Paul raises a question a second question in verse 11 did they the Israelites stumbled in order that they might fall and again he gives a negative answer by no means and then he goes on to explain why that's not the case they did not stumble in order that they might fall that was not the the ultimate end of their stumbling it had another end God had another end in view yeah um we'll come back to these of course can I go through them again and offer an interpretation but maybe the next set of verses that would be especially helpful here are verses 25 through 32 lest you be wise in your own sight I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery brothers a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and in this way all Israel will be saved as it is written the deliverer will come from Zion he will banish ungodliness from Jacob and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins as regards the gospel they are enemies for your sake but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable for just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercies shown to you they also may now receive mercy for God has consigned all to disobedience that they may have mercy on all very good thank you I think that verse 2 really is the clincher of the whole thing God has consigned all Jews and Gentiles to disobedience that he may have mercy on all Jews and Gentiles and Paul is explaining how exactly God is wringing that about having mercy on all but just as I noted earlier the you know the phrase that we that the debate here in terms of the interpretation of this passage centers around is that phrase in verse 26 where Paul says that all Israel will be saved what specifically is meant by all Israel oh yeah right that and that definitely is is right at the heart of it who is all Israel and and what does it mean for all Israel to be saved I mean it even I don't want to jump the gun too much but it even speaks about Paul making some jealous and thus save some of them so some people I'm sure have have wondered why he's speaking there and not and thus save all of them but what are some of the different approaches here you mentioned oh Palmer Robertson and he had five views that he describes what are those views what's the survey of the landscape in terms of views and and where might we find these views are these dispensationalists and evangelicals and then reformed people I'm curious to know what the views are and then what might we find within a confessional Reformed Church for example yes very good Robertson says in the chapter I mentioned earlier that there are five views with regard to the interpretation of all Israel the first two as far as I know are not very popular certainly not within the reformed church but the last three are pretty common within the reformed church and even within our tradition even within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church you will find men who hold to one of those three last views so Robertson summarizes them very briefly the first view is that all Israel means all ethnic descendants of Abraham the second one is that all Israel means all ethnic descendants of Abraham living when God initiates a special working among among the Jewish people so it's still compute a second view would confine all Israel to a specific period of time say a generation at the end times are this so that view would say that if you if a person was an ethnic Jew and died in unbelief prior to some future mass conversion of the Jews then that person would not would not be saved correct yes according to verse 2 are not verse 2 but the second view sorry right but but according to the first view that's not that's not the case the first view is that all ethnic Justin areum will be saved without exception period mm-hmm the second view all means all every single one of the Ithaca distant descendants of Abraham living at a particular time in history will be saved again as I said earlier those first two views are not at all common in the Reformed Church I believe that you can find some evangelical dispensationalists who would advocate the second view oh sure yeah I think that's probably common among dispensationalist and it's been it's been a long time since I've studied dispensationalism I at one time was the dispensationalist before I came into the Reformed Church and we all know that there are different there's a variety of views within dispensationalism dr. Byrne Poitras for example wrote a book many years ago entitled understanding dispensationalism at the time when dispensationalism was being modified so he talked about you know different modified views of dispensationalism there hmm but the last three views if I can mention them Robertson says that according to the third view all Israel means the mass or at least majority of Jews living at the time of a special saving activity of God that's probably more similar to what I just mentioned so two would be different from three yeah yes two is different from three in that all doesn't mean all without exception I got you yeah four is all elect Israelites within the community of Israel so the elect and only the elect within Israel and number five is that all Israel refers to both Jews and Gentiles who together constitute the Church of Christ to be Israel of gone would most advocates for number four that all-electric Israelites within the community of Israel include people who have converted or like people like Ruth for example who came who knew as she's a Moabite but she she came to nation of Israel and and converted him I forget I'm failing that my brain isn't working and telling me the word there's a proper word for that for that incorporation into Israel but she's not an ethnic descendant of Abraham nevertheless would have been an Israelite yes she was a proselyte there we go that's what I'm thinking your God shall be my God has really said to her mother-in-law right right so being a proselyte was brought into the fold of Israel and yes it would include all of the elect within Israel from the beginning to the end ordinarily view for wood though there is a subtle distinction that I'll talk about a little bit later because Paul does make a distinction between the remnant of saved Israelites and the fullness of Israel in Romans chapter 11 so what does that distinction mean so just something that began with in the Reformed Church there are three main views of all Israel and a dr. venema that does dr. Kanellis venema who is the president of Mid America reformed seminary and a professor there and Dyer Indiana has a very helpful article on Romans 11 and specifically Romans 11:26 the article is entitled in this way all Israel will be saved study of Romans 11:26 and it was published in the mid-america Journal of theology number 22 2011 I don't know if that one is available online or not if it is then maybe we can include it in the show notes certainly but mid-america does publish their journals online after so many for so many years so this one might be online but dr. venema examines those three views that have been held within the Reformed Church in terms of their strengths and weaknesses and he identifies advocates within the Reformed Church of each one of those views and on the first view dr. venema says the following the first view takes this phrase all Israel to refer to the people of Israel as a totality though not necessarily every individual Jew who will be converted at some time after the fullness of the Gentiles has been gathered and so this would refer to a future event a future conversion relative to us but the future relative to us evening yes certainly future relative to Paul mm-hmm but future relative to us even because this hasn't happened yet so according to this first view Paul has Paul is making a prediction about an event that will occur in the future and that event is a conversion on a mass scale of ethnic Israelites now dr. venema identifies a few of the advocates of this view one of which is Professor John Murray Orthodox Presbyterian minister held to this view advocated this view as did Charles Hodge 19th century Presbyterian theologian and professor at Princeton Theological Seminary and to my surprise I did not know this until I read dr. Panama's article your hardest voss even advocated this view a vos covers it just briefly in the Pauline eschatology but it's there and if our listeners have a copy of the Pauline eschatology and want to look it up they can look up in the index Romans 11:26 or just Romans 11 and then go back and read everywhere where dr. vos commented on this mm-hmm and then dr. venema himself also says that he thinks this is the best view this is the most plausible view and he's so he puts forth a case in favor of this view and of all of the articles and books out there that advocate this particular view I think dr. venomous is the best the most compelling most persuasive argument out there he summarizes the landscape as a whole and then he points out strengths and weaknesses of each view and then he gives some good persuasive arguments in favor of this one you've labeled some representatives of the view but what type of for lack of a better phrase eschatological view is is this usually more often find a home in well that more often finds a home among post millennialist mm-hmm but as we've seen some ammonia was also would hold to this view boss we would certainly categorize as a non millennialist and those terms that distinction between post mill and on mill is his recent right it's very new mm-hmm and so if you go back to the 19th century when Charles Hodge was writing there was no distinction between those two things really in place right in the ordering of events that you find in in the book of Revelation for example are the same between post-millennial and amillennial the difference can be shades of differences are not necessarily always really hard and fast differences but the differences often regard the character of the Millennial Kingdom and the timing of it mm-hmm ordering of of all the events Millennial Kingdom return of Christ etc mm-hmm those things are the same but among amillennialists and post millennial of us yes so amillennialism is a subset of post millennialism hmm yes I'm alone yes but when that Christ will return after the Millennium indeed so dr. Richard Gavin by the way has an absolutely brilliant article on that subject and I believe it's in the volume that Westminster seminary produced on the subject of Theon imme dr. gaffed gasps Fionna me a reformed critique yes that's the title of the book and Gary Norris did not think highly of that Molly I would imagine not I haven't heard his opinion but I would just guess no rum and I don't recall dr. Gavin's a title of the chapter but that's and I believe it's online I think I found it online and if it is certainly I want to include that in the show notes and commend that to her ELISA losing I'm looking for my copy on the Shelf right now and I can get it well I don't see it but I might I might dig it up here in a second so that that's really quite useful to understand where some of those views are and and where you find them how do they what's the second view I should say regarding the the reference of all Israel yes the second view that is held by theologians within the Reformed Church takes the phrase all Israel to be a reference to the salvation of all the elect Jew and Gentile alike gathered through the preaching of the gospel in the whole course of the history of redemption and that's how dr. venema summarizes it in his article and so Israel in verse 26 does not refer to a distinct people among the peoples of the earth but to the people of God in general and in a comprehensive since embracing Jew and Gentile alike all that belong to the church so all Israel simply is the church the whole church to use the metaphor Paul uses in Romans 11 it's the whole olive tree comprised of both natural and unnatural branches which would be believing elect Jews natural branches so not just wild branches like us you and I are wild branches right you got it unnatural yes wild so all Israel there includes all the branches clearly not merely the natural ones yes according to the second view right all Israel and verse 26 means the whole olive tree which can be defined in terms of Israel in terms of the root of the tree anyhow because it has its root in the Covenant that God made with the patriarchs Abraham Isaac and Jacob and you might think here also of what Paul has says said earlier in Romans chapter 4 regarding Abraham being the father of all believers and of what Paul says in Galatians 3 concerning those who are of Christ are the seed of Abraham they're the offspring of Abraham and then Galatians chapter 6 where Paul refers to the church as the Israel gone which there seems to have the church and view as a whole well that itself submit debated but I knew I find that that Chi being a peppy exegetical myself as some says the gloss it it says something a peace be upon all who walk by this rule Chi or and or I would say that is the Israel of God so the Israel of God is the people who walk by the rule that Paul labeled right not an additional group of people you have people that walk by God's Word and then you have Israel so the Chi could be translated namely namely or that is yes so an advocate of this second view that all Israel means the church as a whole Jew and Gentile alike would be John Calvin Calvin definitely sets forth this view and his commentary on Romans 11 and Oh Paul mur Robertson also held to this view at least at a later stage he did in the chapter that I mentioned earlier he advocates a different view which we'll get to in just a minute which is few number three but Robertson ends up in another book that he wrote called the Israel of God and ends up taking this particular view mm-hmm so that third view kandan if I can move on please to the third now dr. venema says that the third view takes all Israel to be a reference to the total number of the elect from among the people of Israel according to this view the fullness of Israel refers to the sum total of the remnant of the elect Jews and God has gathered past is gathering present and will yet gather throughout the entire history of redemption until the time of Christ's second coming so that's the third main view and advocates of that view would include Herman BA Fink Herman Ritter boss Anthony jicama and his book entitled the Bible in the future which I read in seminary but reread when I was studying Romans chapter 11 and I think how come I made the most compelling case for this particular view yeah and then Roberts Trimble in a book entitled the millennium and beyond three views which I have here mm-hmm triple advocates amillennialism in this book and has a good some commentary good commentary on Romans chapter 11 and then I would put Richard Gavin in this view as well even though dr. Gavin has not written a treatise on Romans 11 or on this particular subject mmm he does in a footnote in one of his chapters revealed that this is the view he leans for this may be a place where dr. gaffe and departs a little bit from John Murray yes I believe that is the case incidentally uh I got the book here the enemy a reformed critique and dr. Gavin's chapters on page 197 of the Edition I have titled fionna me and eschatology reflections on postmillennialism if people would like to look that up and if I can find it online I'll post that too very good it might be helpful Camden if we were just to back up and look at the chapter as a whole Romans chapter 11 and if we did that we could note that Paul is addressing two main topics in this chapter and he addresses those topics by raising questions and then answering those questions the first question is in verse one has God rejected his people the second question is in verse 11 did they God's people the Israelites stumble in order that they might fall a Paul answers both of those questions with an intact and emphatic no by no means meagan oida in the greek and so the two main topics that are addressed in this chapter is that God has not rejected his people Israel and that they did not stumble in order that they might fall now Paul what Paul has to say about that first point is covered in verses 1 through 10 and what he has to say about the second point is covered in verses 11 in the following all the way to the end of the chapter he covers the first point briefly the second point at length and of course the second point of course is where all of the difficulty is in terms of interpretation that's where the disagreement is mm-hmm now on the first point if I can go back and make some comments sure just on verses 1 through 10 Paul is saying that God has not rejected his people Israel and the proof that Paul gives that God has not rejected down is the fact that God has preserved a remnant of believing Israelites and Paul himself is an example of a remnant believer among Israel so that the church in Paul's day was struggling with why so many of the Jews refused to believe in Jesus why they were turning away from the gospel why were there more Gentiles in the church than Jews so the nation of Israel as a whole had turned away from the gospel and only a minority of the Jews had accepted Christ and given that situation what was the church in the first century to conclude what was it to make of Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ did their rejection mean that God had rejected his people the God was no longer blessing his people the Israelites and Paul says the answer to that question is no God has not rejected his people Israel and the proof that he has not done so is the fact that he has he has preserved a remnant so Paul says in verse 1 I ask then has God rejected his people by no means for I myself AM an Israelite a descendant of Abraham a member of the tribe of Benjamin so Paul points to himself as an example of an Israelite who had not been rejected and Paul and the other believing Jews constituted a remnant of Israelites who were spared from condemnation by God's elect and grace and that rim that has proved that God hasn't rejected his people Paul goes on in verses 2 through 5 to refer to Elijah and in verse 2 he says do you not know what the scriptures say of Elijah and this is from first Kings 19 now Elijah appeals to God against Israel Lord they the Israelites have killed your prophets they have demolished your altars and I alone am left and they seek my life so Elijah was living at a time when Israel as a whole had committed apostasy Israel as a whole had turned away from the true God to worship a false god Bale Elijah was living at a time when the true prophets were persecuted by the Jews who were calling them to repentance and Elijah thought that he was the only Israelite left you had not been gone mm-hmm but he was not aware of the fact that God had preserved a remnant and so God makes that known to him and Paul says and Romans 11 for but what does God's replied to him I have kept for myself 7,000 men who had not bowed the need to bail so God had preserved a remnant of 7,000 and Elijah was therefore not the only one 7,000 of course may seem like a lot to us but in comparison to those the rest of Israel they had forsaken God it was only a small remnant a small remainder who had been preserved by God's grace now Paul goes on to point out a parallel between the state of affairs and Elijah's day and the state of affairs that he was facing in his own day or the church and the first entry was facing as in Elijah's day so also now at the present Paul says there is a remnant of believing Jews verse 5 so - at the present time so also or in like manner at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace and so even if there is widespread and believed among the Jews even if the nation as a whole had committed apostasy PulsePoint here is that that falling away was not total it was only partial and again he's he's a personal example of this exactly yes not every single Israelite had refused to believe in Christ and the reason is that God had preserved for himself a remnant chosen by grace of which Paul was one example Peter all of them yes right okay so that's the main point in verses 1 through 10 and if we can move on now to the kind of the second main idea that Paul covers in chapters learning in verse 11 11 11 yes it starts he starts to cover a second point his second main idea and in verse 11 that continues to the end of the chapter mm-hmm so Paul teaches beginning in verse 11 that the purpose of Israel's falling away in unbelief or the mass unbelief among the Jews in his own day was not ultimately designed to bring about their condemnation but rather to bring about salvation to bring salvation to the Gentiles which in turn would provoke the Israelites to jealousy and lead them back to God so Paul states that idea very briefly in verse 11 and then he elaborates on it in the following verses in verse 11 he says so I ask did they stumble in order that they might fall by no means rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous so they didn't stumble in order that they might fall that was not the ultimate or the chief design of their stumbling they did stumble they stumbled over the gospel they stumbled and fell but that wasn't it's chief end so it wasn't God's ultimate designer purpose for Israel's unbelief Paul says emphatically no not at all but rather through their trespass or through their unbelief salvation has come to the Gentiles and even that is not the final purpose salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous and so the purpose of that jealousy is to bring Israel back to God so that's the main idea that's contained in a single verse verse 11 and then unpacked by Paul and the following verses you know you're right in in some of the notes that there's a back and forth movement um what do you mean by that and how does that come to bear here in Romans 11 very good so God is using one group of people to bring salvation to the other group of people he uses the Israelites to bring salvation to the Gentiles and then uses the Gentiles to bring elevation to the Jews so that's the back and forth movement that sometimes referred to as the wave movement in Romans chapter 11 God uses one group to bring salvation to the other group so God's design for the gospel is to bring salvation to all as we saw earlier in verse 32 that's kind of the clincher Paul's argument God has confined all to unbelief so that he might have mercy on all and how exactly does God bring that about well he uses the the unbelief of the Jews to bring salvation to the Gentiles and then the salvation of the Gentiles to make the Jews jealous so as to bring them back to faith sure in him and so how does that relate then to Paul specific missions-- cuz he calls into account what he was particularly called installed and sent to do yes very good Paul was Paul is referred to as an apostle to the Gentiles he's a Jew that he was sent out to do - not to minister to the Jews right but right the Gentiles so he most certainly did reach the gospel to the Jews right his his MO whenever he entered into a town or village was to go to the synagogue and preach to the Jews he has the scars to prove it yes he did so but Paul desired and in this you know Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles he he boasted in his ministry to the Gentiles as he puts it here in Romans chapter 11 his desire was to see more and more Gentiles converted not only for their own sake not only for their own salvation but he was also working among the Gentiles for the salvation of the Gentiles with a view toward the salvation of Israel so Paul says in Romans 11 that he magnified his mission to the Gentiles to make the Jews jealous so that they too might be brought to faith in Christ and you see this especially in verses 13 and 14 Paul says now I am speaking to you Gentiles verse 13 in as much then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous and thus save some of them so his mission to the Gentiles was not only directed to the salvation of the Gentiles but to the salvation of the Jews as well yeah that size is just a basic important and practical point I mean there's a little point of application here for people if we were preaching this text and how all the various ministries done in humble submission to the Lord and to his calling are connected to one another that there isn't just some discrete separate aspect of faithfulness to God that has no bearing upon the rest of the life of God's people that has Paul's ministering to the Gentiles he does so the conscious awareness knowledge and understanding that the that his activities insofar as they're blessed by the Holy Spirit will have an effect upon his his kinsmen that yes as they come to see more and more Gentiles receive the blessings of God you know to use my language I suppose he's kind of hoping for and and working toward a sanctified fomo like this fear of missing out you know it's like I thought I was a privileged one being a Jew but look at look at what these brothers and these these Gentiles these Outsiders have by the by the power of the Spirit I'm jealous I want that and then it would cause them by God's grace to investigate and hopefully to repent of their sins and believe on Jesus so if you do start a series on the book of Romans be sure to entitle your sermon on this text a sanctified and I can end it all with Yolo you know whatever and eat some Rolo's well we digress yes so one very important point here Camden there is a back and forth movement from Jews to Gentiles to Jews and one very important point regarding that is that Paul according to verses 11 through 15 sees that that back and forth movement is occurring in his own ministry in the first century through the ministry of Paul and the other apostles the fullness of the Gentiles was being brought into the kingdom of God and so was the fullness of Israel God was having mercy on all bringing about the salvation of both groups so that was happening in the first entry that has continue to happen down to our day and it will continue to happen until the coming of Christ until every single elect person among the Gentiles and every single electing the Jews has been brought in has been converted there's another question here regarding the word fullness the word fullness is used in two different places in Romans 11 first of all Paul uses it to refer to the fullness of the Gentiles which I take to mean every elect person among the Gentiles and if that's what it means with regard to the Gentiles then I think it it's reasonable to argue that the fullness of the Jews which Paul referred to earlier also has a view every elect person among the Jews so in verse 12 Paul says if there the Jews trespass means reaches for the world if their failure means riches for the Gentiles how much more will their full inclusion our fullness mean so it's the same word that's used in verse 26 to refer to the fullness of the GEMA play Roma we also see used in a different way referencing Christology in Colossians 1:15 through nineteen if I'm not mistaken mm-hmm Paul Colossians deals with that the Greek notion of play Rome are quite quite a bit yes so the the fullness of the Jews in verse 12 I believe has in view the same thing that all Israel has in view in verse 26 it refers to the salvation of the fullness of Israel and that's parallel to the salvation of the fullness of the Gentiles that the ideas parallel so the question has to do with the timing of these things in my mind the main point here has to do with when will the fullness of the Gentiles come be brought in and does that coincide with the fullness of the Jews being brought in or are they equal does one occur before the other right and if there's some sort of causal yes that's also a to rate yeah well I think actually I think there is a causal there's definitely a causal link I'm not saying there isn't but that's that's a question that interpreters are considering yes it is certainly so the the causal link is is that God uses the salvation of the fullness of the Gentiles to bring about the salvation of the fullness of Israel so there's that back and forth wave-like movement the question is do those two things occur at different stages in redemptive history does the fullness of Israel only occur at the very end of the fullness of the Gentiles being brought in and that really is probably a good segue to get us to the main verse here and the Jews this is a real the real kernel of the issue yes yeah verse 25 Paul says a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and in this way all Israel will be saved so the most interpreters most evangelical interpreters interpret that saying as a reference to an event that happens in the future so that at a certain predetermined time in the future God will bring about the salvation of all Israel it's a prophecy concerning the future we've done specifically it predicts an event that coincides with our immediately precedes the second coming of Jesus Christ so it's an endtime event and that it's coincides with or precedes immediately the return of Christ so the idea again is that at some point in the future the gospel that currently is going forth to all the nations and the conversion of the Gentiles that is occurring at some point in the future you know the full number of the elect Gentiles will have will have been brought into the kingdom and then at that point God will turn wavelike back to Israel and bring about the salvation of the fullness of Israel or Paul Israel now there are three arguments that are put forth in favor of that particular interpretation the first two arguments I find persuasive I find compelling I think there are legitimate arguments the third one is the one that I have the problem with and so the first argument in favor of this particular view that all Israel will be saved means at some time in the future the ethnic Israelites on a mass scale will be saved they will be converted the first argument in favor of that interpretation is that the word Israel in verse 26 refers to the Jews and distinction from the Gentiles I think that's an important point I mean I know it is but when I first came to you know be to sympathize with the reformed theology and became a Calvinist and and whatnot and in reaction to my dispensational context at the time I I just I probably overreacted and had such a hard-line view that that every mention of Israel in this chapter refers to those who are Jews Jews at the heart but I had that understanding with that everybody who had that heart condition or circumcision of the heart was a true Jew meaning you could say you know a Jew is one who is one inwardly circumcision is that of the heart there are two different ways to think about that Paul's saying there are Jewish people but then there are true Jews as a subset of ethnic Israel and those are the people who truly believe in a regenerate they believe on Jesus the way I was taking it years ago was that there are zest an ethnic Israel and there's this whole other mass of people who are circumcised by the heart that's true those are the true Jews whether they're ethnically Jew or Gentile right yes that's very important point and that's Romans 2 the end of Roman exactly but here you're saying every time Paul is mentioning Israel or Jews in this chapter it quite clearly has a reference to ethnic Israel it does and not only in Romans 11 but in Romans 9 10 yeah it carries on through the all through that whole through so that pericope Romans 9 through 11 forms a unit and Paul uses Israel the word Israel eleven times in those three chapters and every time it seems without exception except for 26 if it is an exception Israel is used in distinction for refer to the jews in distinction from the gentiles so basically that should be our main assumption that's the default mode of that word as we're working through here unless Paul gives ample literary evidence saying he's changed the way the sense that or the scope of this word and that's that's what's operative here in these chapters yes bingo exactly so context will determine how it's being used here and in the immediate preceding context and verse 25 Israel most certainly is used in distinction from the Gentiles verse 26 is not only the first that immediately follows it but it's inseparably organically connected to it because it completes the thought verse 25 it's not a separate thought it completes the thought of verse 25 and so to me this argument I think is is really compelling because if Israel and verse 25 is Israel and distinction from the Gentiles then it really must be that in verse 26 in my opinion yeah I agree with you there that's not necessarily what Calvin held the right Calvin thought that the word Israel in 26 refers to the full church Jew and Gentile right which doesn't seem to be plausible given the usage of Israel in chapters 9 through 11 and especially in verse 20 25 mm-hmm okay so the second argument that is set forth in favor of this interpretation of a future ethnic conversion of Israelites on a mass scale is that the salvation of all Israel in verse 26 are the fullness of Israel as Paul puts it in verse 12 is contrasted with the salvation of the remnant of Israel in verses 1 through 10 so you first have a remnant saved and then in addition to the remnant you have all Israel being saved or the fullness of Israel being saved now Paul begins the chapter by talking about the salvation of the remnant we've already looked at that he himself was one of the one of the remnant but then when he gets to verse 12 there's a there's a definite contrast between the salvation of the full of Israel to play Roma full inclusion of Israel and verse 26 all israel who are converted after the salvation of the remnant so the argument goes that the salvation of israel in verse 26 are all israel verse 26 the inclusion of the fullness of israel verse 12 cannot merely refer to the salvation an inclusion of a small minority of israelites the remnant now I said Camden I think that's a legitimate argument a compelling argument I think it's true I think that's also true so those are the first two arguments put forth in favor of this interpretation both of which I think are true the third argument however I think is the problem and the third argument has to do with the timing of the event yeah this is the one that I find not so compelling Arlene maybe I can put it this way I'm not convinced of it it doesn't seem convincing to me for a few reasons that refers to the word specifically the word until in verse 25 right right a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and in this way all Israel will be saved people might want to know that Greek oh I'm sorry to preempt you but the the Greek aakhri ooh to play Rama tone death known as sailfin so or who told play Rama so aqua is the operative word here referring to until the Lao NIDA lexicon defines the re-entry entry can be aqua II sometimes mercury or Metris the continuous extent of time up to a point until - at last at length those are the dominant uses of that we're good yes so that the partial hardening of Israel must then only be temporary because at some point it will come to an end at some point in the future it will end that's the argument and at that point only at that point after the hardening has been lifted God will bring about the salvation of all Israel I know where you're going with because I've heard you you've preached on it before but um and I've got your notes in front of me this is a great case of a word being a correct translation of the Greek but though English word has has a different usage that we that we as native English speakers are importing into that particular use so we're reading a certain context and a temporal sequence into the English that may or may not be there in the Greek that is correct yes and because we read until that way I think we have a tendency to gloss the first words of verse 26 the first words of verse 26 are and in this way all Israel will be saved I think a lot of people tend to read it as saying and then after that so they they read into it another temporal marker mm-hmm a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and then only after that all Israel will be saved so that the the problem with that is the first words in verse 26 are not a temporal they don't signify any temporal sequence it doesn't mean after that or add in it means in this manner in this way namely in the manner that God has ordained in the way that God is using that God has appointed to bring about their salvation yeah the Greek on 26 is Caillou tous to begin so thus yeah so thus our you know in this manner who toasts in this manner in what manner specifically in the manner that Paul is describing the salvation of Israel will come about by means of the salvation of the fullness of the Gentiles God uses one group to bring about the salvation of the other so the manner and view here is the wave-like motion that's the manner yeah okay so the word until in verse 25 does not necessarily mean that after the fullness of the Gentiles has been realized that partial hardening of Israel will be lifted and Israel as a whole will be converted but the partial hardening of Israel will continue it could this is another argument it could continue right up until the full number of the Gentiles the total number of the Gentiles and God is intended to save has been brought into the kingdom which coincides with the return of Christ at the end of the world so I mean just to back up a little bit those who hold to the view that we're considering now about a future mass scale conversion of ethnic Israelites say that Paul says two things in Romans 11 the hardening of Israel is partial not total because there's a remnant and its temporal not final it will end and I agree that it will end but when will it end it could end at the second coming of Christ but they are saying no it will end prior to the second coming because there has to be a mass conversion of the Israelites before before Christ returns and so what do you think the how does that end up treating the aakhri the until + 25 then so the aakhri if it is a temporal marker and I'm okay with saying that it is a temporal mark marker it doesn't tell us necessarily the moment in time when it's going to when it's going to end when the hardening of Israel is going to end it could coincide the ending of the the hardening of Israel could coincide with the second coming of Christ but the advocates of this particular view say no it it terminates prior to that because there will be a generation of Israelites converted now if I can comment just on time markers more broadly in the chapter 1 question I would have here is are there any other time markers in the chapter that might tell us when the fullness of Israel is going to be brought in besides the until is there anything else in the chapter and I think there is if we can look down at verses 30 to 31 again Paul says in verse 30 he uses three different time markers here in verse 30 Paul says for just as you were at one time talking here specifically to the Gentiles just as you Gentiles were at one time disobedient to God but now there's the time marker have received mercy because of their disobedience disobedience of the unbelieving Jews in verse 31 so they too have now there's a time marker then disobedience and order that by the mercy shown to you Gentiles they also may and here it is now receive mercy well so when do the Jews receive mercy as a result of God showing mercy to the Gentiles according to verse 31 it's now not future now no pun intended we have to raise the question or not raise the question but raise the point that this is there's a textual variant here some manuscripts do not contain the noon the New Testament guys are there they're getting all interested now no they're listening yes they're listening so and not to get into the weeds on textual criticism and manuscript evidence but it seems to be the case that the the best manuscripts contain the noon so it's better in my opinion it's got better textual support than the one that doesn't contain those and all that is for those who haven't studied this sort of thing it's conceivable that a scribe later on inserted an extra now just not maybe not intentionally but just it just came out but you're you're advocating that you believe that's original because that is the best I've oldest then there's a lot to take into account regarding what should be included in a in a in a in a text but it seems that the best support is to include that extra now in the verse verse 32 no verse 31 right and I don't think we want to put all of our eggs in one basket either with regard to the aakhri and verse 25 or with regard to the noon it would be interesting though and this isn't there and again an argument from silence but it would be quite stunning if Paul said so they too now so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they may also one day receive mercy right that would be quite different it would be yes it would be but if the now is there I think it does give us a more definite time marker yeah then until but however whichever view we're holding we hold - I don't think we want to put all of our eggs on one single term whether it be the verse 31 term noon or verse 25 aakhri and to me what is a more compelling case here with regard to the timing of the wave-like motion is what we've already covered back in verses 11 through 15 there it's it's clear to me that Paul sees in his own ministry the full inclusion of the Jews are the salvation of all Israel is already occurring in his own ministry the the wave-like motion is already going back and forth in the first century and in his ministry otherwise why would he say I magnify my ministry to the Gentiles specifically for this purpose to provoke the Jews to jealousy and and to bring them to repentance yeah well some people would say Paul didn't know Paul was operating with with the lack of information and you know there there I'm not suggesting that but obviously he does not know the time or days or seasons as when the Lord returns nobody does and economically speaking the Son of God doesn't know either in his human nature but in Paul's clearly operating with an imminent eschatology that Christ could come back at any point in time and I believe we need to be operating in that regard as well but I don't think anything that has happened in history has has proven that Paul was misunder was misunderstanding things or that Paul was mistaken and what he did some people would might want to say that it's stable but what Paul's saying is based on an imminent eschatology that Christ back any moment if he knew Jesus was gonna be two thousand years delayed according to his understanding he wouldn't have spoken like this I think that'd be a misguided way to interpret this I agree but since you've raised the question I think this is important or raise the the point about the imminent return of Christ sure it's triple raises this too this is a big deal for me on my particular view it is it's a big deal for me too you know if there is going to be a mass conversion among ethnic Israelites at some point prior to the return of Christ and how can the return of Christ be imminent no I answer to our manat considering what has already happened but something that is is future from our perspective as well right like in the future there will be millions of Jews that will come to believe in Jesus praise the Lord if that happens I hope does happen but at the same time it seems as if there's such a such a an enormous event of history there's something there's a box that needs to be checked there's something that needs to happen before Christ can come back right and therefore we could not have a truly imminent eschatology which seems to be present in the way Jesus describes and the way Paul describes to the Lord will come as a thief in the night we won't expect it if we go and see a million Jews come to faith tomorrow praise the Lord that would be amazing I hope that happens but until we see that you you would have to say well Jesus can't come back so I'm gonna yes you know right just hang out until I see that happen then I'll get my affairs in order right but but should we anticipate something like that either among the Jews or Gentiles yeah before Christ returns and if that is the case then does that somehow constitute a golden age on this side of the eschaton I mean should we look for a golden age on this side of the eschaton and I think John Murray and his commentary as I recall not only says that there will be a mass conversion among the Jews before the return of Christ but there will be a mass conversion among the Gentiles - now that sounds to me if I mean if anything if anything constitutes a golden age I don't know what else would constitute a golden age if that's if that wouldn't do so why not yeah right and that's the great hope right the great Puritan hope as Ian Murray would have putted a conversion on a mass scale among the nation's Jews Jews included this is something dr. Gaffin I think very very clearly and persuasively addresses in his article on on eschatology that on this side of the eschaton there is no there is no Golden Age hope that we ought to have and I think he's right about that for various reasons for reasons that he puts forth in that in that chapter hmm so now here's the the distinction I want to make and it's a little bit of a criticism I have with the caricature of well and maybe Kirk knew characterization of the view that I hold that simple puts forth I don't think the all Israel will be saved in verse 26 or the salvation of the fullness of Israel in verse 12 refers to the salvation of all the left is your lights from beginning to end I think it refers specifically to the salvation of all elect Israelites in the between the advents the first Advent and the second advent of Christ I think it is that time period because the remnant of believing Israelites are those that initially converted when Christ appeared those that were converted in the first generation and then the fullness of Israel being brought in is the salvation of Israel that I think occurs throughout the entire internet dental period ethnic is Reagan that's your peers and my view - so you're speaking of the salvation of all elect ethnic Israelites between the first and second coming of Christ yes exactly and so it's not the salvation of all elect Israelites in one generation it's not confined to one general our limited period of time but it stretches out through a vast period of time between the the two advent of Christ so that's why I think Paul can say the fullness of Israel are all Israel was being saved in his own day and I think it continues to be the case down to our day and will continue to be the case until until Christ's return so it's not a future event that poll foresees something that will happen in the future for that as something that was happening in his own time and has continued throughout the whole history of the church that's the view at least Camden that I find most uh most compelling yeah I agree with you there I find it compelling as well and it's helpful and regardless I mean there are several Orthodox views expressed here but even holding this view certainly in no way shape or form should move anyone or direct anyone to not care for the Israelites or the or the Jews but it also doesn't inform us as to any particular geopolitical strategy or position that we should have towards towards the worldly nation of Israel and so this isn't a replacement theology because we're one new man in Christ we haven't replaced the Jews but the plan and purpose has always been for God to bring about glory to himself through his son and for his son to be the firstborn of many brothers and those brothers to be wild and you know unnatural and natural branches to mix metaphors yeah and only one olive tree there's no replacement of the own area they stay have a conversation oh I pet my pastor when I was in the dispensational Church we'd have he was a very long suffering kind and generous man still is I haven't spoken to him for a long time um but we used to used to have breakfast with me every Wednesday I can't believe he did it for so long because we would talk about these things all the time and I kept going back quite long suffering wasn't it yes I could have believed it also precocious and you know caged stagey and all that you know and I look back and I said this is a superhero because I know what it's like in pastoral ministry now I was like this guy's amazing that he put up with me anyway I kept asking him how many olive trees are there in Romans 11 he's like one I go exactly I mean there aren't two trees Israel and the church are not separate they're not distinct like we can distinguish within that tree the natural and the unnatural branches but they're both grafted into the same tree they have the same root so to artificially separate the two and say that there's you know plan a or Plan B and I know a lot of guys don't use that language anymore in dispensational camp but the idea is still there one new man dividing walls been torn down and so we we need to love and care for and evangelize everybody not have preferential treatment towards one type or one ethnicity over another but seek to go forth making disciples of all men teaching all men all all human beings the things that Christ has taught making disciples of them by baptizing them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit all nations disciples of all nations since you brought it up I'm very glad you did and you know Paul has a point an ethical point in romans 11 and the ethical point is that the gentiles ought not to be arrogant amen right you know so the the the unbelieving Jews were broken off Paul says that the the unnatural branches that have been grafted into that one olive tree stand by faith they were broken up because if I'm the leaf but you stand by faith so don't be prideful don't be arrogant and so he's actually is dealing with the attitude of the Gentiles toward the Jews in the first injury that's in the present the present attitude and he says you can be cut off I mean yeah we're if we prove and demonstrate that we we don't trust in Christ and we have not been saved by him if we live and in arrogance and pride we could be cut off just as as fast and as easily as the Lord can graft back presently proud rebellious Jews back back into the tree mm-hmm yeah and that in the Gentiles can be cut off by pride and the Gentiles need to realize that they've only been grafted in because of the UM leaf of Israel and if the unbelief of Israel meant their grafting in you know what would the full inclusion at this reel mean so that should be their great hope and desire and prayer and to pray for the salvation of the Jews yeah I agree well thanks Glen for walking us through this I know this is a really tough passage this chapter is been challenging for many people for many centuries but I think you know that this is well I know this has been tremendously helpful to me and I think for many of our listeners at least is going to open up some new avenues of study and thank you for that I think it's timely you're welcome you know well we also are hoping and continue to pray for all the families affected by this tragedy in escondido by this this shooter that killed people in this synagogue and again you know just publicly want to reaffirm our love and commitment to all people groups and recognize that there is no place in the Christian Church not just a Reformed Church but in any Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ there's no place no tolerance should be for any hatred any anti-semitism bigotry misogyny racism anything of the sort this is not the calling of Christ and we need to love our brother I love our neighbor as ourself we need to follow after the Lord with all of our heart soul mind and strength and love him above all and he calls us to a life of service and of love and care so we need to share the gospel with people and not injure them not kill them and so for what it's worth and I hope it's worth something we want to say that publicly and condemn such behavior and call all people to be reconciled to one another insofar as it reconciled and it through Jesus Christ and recognize that the Lord has not yet come back in judgment because he's still calling his people into this fold he still has more and more sheep to call unto himself and so as the church we need to be about the Great Commission and and recognize that's what the Lord's doing so with all that being said I do encourage you one follow up if you have any questions you can email us at mail at Reformed formed you can visit us on the website as well for more information about our programs and all of our resources and future events again the the I didn't say it in this episode I said it earlier today which we recorded two episodes in the same day but the reformed forum a theology conference the annual conference a Grayslake Illinois at hope OPC will be October 11th and 12th and we're going to be speaking about the law as spiritual looking to another passage from the movies that's been challenging of Romans 7:14 so we're really looking at that and we'd be excited to see you there all that's online reform informed work thanks so much for listening we hope you join us again next time on Christ message you

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Length: 76min 8sec (4568 seconds)

Published: Thu May 16 2019