Alexander Vindman: Here, Right Matters

become a sustaining member of the commonwealth  club for just ten dollars a month join today hello everyone and welcome to today's virtual  program at the commonwealth club of california   i'm tim miller the writer at large for the  bulwark and a political analyst for msnbc   i'm excited to be here with you all today and  i am honored to be joined by lieutenant colonel   alexander vinman a friend of mine an american  hero who's here to discuss his new book hear   right matters an american story i'm sure you  all know alex but uh after former president   trump's infamous phone call to ukraine's president  zielinski he felt duty bound reported up the chain   of command the president had extorted a foreign  ally to damage a political challenger at home   and here right matters then minutes telling  his story for the first time about how he   ended up at the center of this firestorm  we're going to be discussing that and more   in the next hour i also want to hear your  questions so if you're watching along with us   please put them in the tax chat on youtube  and we'll get into them later in the program   i also have a question from alex's wife that  i'll be getting to at the end of the program   which i'm very excited about sir thank you  so much how's the book tour been going what   has the response been and what has been your  biggest takeaway from from all this sure thanks   tim uh first of all i need to figure out who that  musical score was by i think it was john williams   it's quite the introduction introduction i i  need to get some of that the future uh uh but um   it's been going pretty well i mean this is a very  very sharp learning curve on something i really   frankly never thought i would i'd be doing uh  i thought eventually i'd probably do something   on policy or on uh you know on geopolitics  i'm working on my dissertation at hopkins so   that that project is already in the works but as a  kind of somebody in their mid-40s writing a memoir   it's a little bit surreal and uh as a new brand  new author which i could add to my job description   it's it's been interesting to  understand how the business works   uh in in terms of takeaways you know the p  i i'm super super grateful for the just the   the fantastic reviews i've gotten from the you  know handful of people that have read the thing   uh me yeah yeah i mean the the uh the  three or four of you guys folks john   nancy out there and uh paul i appreciate you uh  you picking up the book maybe we've done a little   bit better than that but still uh i'm we're up  against the machine uh of the republican party   that literally buys like tens of thousands of  books and hands them out to like the the book   burning conventions uh to raise funds and stuff  like that uh it's it's kind of a little bit tough   to see behind the curtain understand how it works  a little bit well i think you're being humble i   think you're doing pretty well i i wish that we  could all be here together um if it wasn't uh you   know maybe for some of that misinformation that  is out there that is uh you know driving the the   rise of covet we are here in california at the  california commonwealth club alex is in la and   i'm up in oakland uh we wanted to be together in  san francisco but such is life we hope to see you   all next year um for the folks who haven't  read uh you know haven't had the chance to   read the book obviously just came out or who  don't know your full story i wanted to start   uh really quick about your personal journey  uh which i think is really central to this   story and it's called here right matters an  american story for a reason and i believe that   that your journey from uh from ukraine uh to  america as a young child is really instructive   as to kind of how you ended up here and in the  center of this drama so tell people a little   bit about your your childhood and um and how it  was you ended up in america in the first place   sure this is another surreal aspect of writing a  memoir is that people like hey how's your you know   are you limping how's your ankle you know i know  you heard it before rangers are like in ranger   school or all sorts of like intimate details  in my about my background that i shouldn't be   shocked about anymore because i wrote a gosh darn  book about it but it's still like it's still odd   that people you know all sorts of background about  me um it's it's pretty it's a pretty awesome uh   you know if i take a step back and take  myself out of this the the the fact that   i'm you know in front of the camera now it's a  pretty awesome story about a humble background   which i think is shared by you know swathes of  americans uh swathes of uh american immigrants   coming here and kind of rebuilding uh from  scratch i came here as a as a you know toddler   my dad started um my dad restarted his life  at 47. so his was even more kind of a uh   uh estranged juxtaposition of uh prosperity  seeming prosperity in the soviet union and then   starting from zero back in the united states all  just to provide a better future for his children   so it's um it's a story about those kind of  humble origins coming to the united states   growing up in in in brooklyn new york not kind  of the the cool brooklyn of nowadays the trendy   you know gentrified brooklyn but when i go to the  bar when i come to town not that part of brooklyn   no no this is the kind of the the rough and tumble  i i watched this the show called the warriors   which was pretty awesome it was filled in 79  i i always loved it as a kid i just watched it   after like probably a couple decades and it shows  this this odyssey of a gang going to like a gang   uh um a retreat of sorts in the bronx and then  having to work their way up back down to brooklyn   coney island which is where we we settled for  right in that brighton beach coney islander   for a year and a half it was something closer  than that than to what it is nowadays brooklyn   but it's that um you know being a bit of a i don't  know if i would just say quite hooligan but uh   uh maybe not entirely focused when i was a a  young guy um and um a rascal i guess of sorts   getting into fights military service and what i i  gained from military service which was a enormous   amount um i am pretty pretty blessed to have the  career i had and then really to contribute to u.s   national security in a huge way by defending the  constitution against uh domestic enemies yeah well   i want to get to that you you breezed over your  dad and i and i when i was reading the story it   was the thing that struck me the most about about  it about his life and you just said he's 47. he   had a you had a stable life your mother had passed  away of cancer um you were living in in ukraine   right um and he had a successful career as an  engineer um there was in his mid-40s and decided   for the benefit of your family um uh because  of what he saw as the problems of the soviet   soviets and the soviet regime to pick up move you  guys to america uh with his mother-in-law and and   start a job doing basically manual labor i mean  what what did you think that what did you learn   from that choice from him and and also i what did  it say to you about this country that you were   coming to that your dad would would make such a  drastic move yeah well i think uh in part it was a   definitely a deep understanding that uh there  are endless possibilities in america uh both   then and now frankly which is something we lose  sight of we we're so uh focused kind of on the   on the inflamed grievances that uh you know media  right and left frankly but certainly by far the   right-wing media kind of uh um rouses us with that  we forget to really take a look around at our at   our lives our neighborhoods and we're doing pretty  well especially if we put that in contrast to the   difficulties and challenges that are uh that  other people on this on this planet face so i   think he had an intuitive understanding  of that he understood that you know   before my mother passed away that medical care  would be that she could potentially be saved or   would be able to live longer which is one of the  kind of the the seeds for his idea to potentially   come to the united states the anti-semitism that  would limit his children's possibilities there   uh he had high hopes that wouldn't be the case  here and he was willing to frankly risk risk at   all on kind of on these on these hopes and beliefs  something that that's he certainly passed on to   to my me and uh my generation with my brothers  and something i'm passing on to my daughter   uh very hopeful sunny happy resilient uh and  that's kind of a part of his legacy i think   yeah i mean the catholic church was caught  the zeal of the convert you know sometimes   us cradle catholics don't have the same passion um  as someone who had converted and i just felt that   throughout your this entire book right and that  and through your testimony right that that your   belief and faith in this country was based in  that faith that your dad had as a as somebody   who you know basically converted if you  will to to american to americanism well   i think it's that uh he had a he had a breadth of  experience with his 47 years in the soviet union   and in certain ways i followed um followed some  of that with my my experiences being uh posted all   along all around the world and in korea along  the the border between north and south korea   in a combat zone in iraq in ukraine in moscow  in germany which was not not a tough assignment   but just having had this breadth of experience and  understood the unique opportunities i think that's   frankly something that the military shares and  that's why one of the reasons besides the fact   that they join because they're patriots and they  want to volunteer it uh the services that itself   in these uh assignments overseas just basically  reinforces the uniqueness of america and the   opportunities that americans have uh and puts  things a little bit in perspective and it really   kind of makes you know ardent uh patriots even  more ardent uh the zeal that you referred to so   talk talk about that i know that um you haven't  listened to some of your other interviews and   and this kind of discussion of the purple heart is  is sometimes you know one that obviously brings a   lot of pride but also you know kind of complicated  feelings for for veterans who've been awarded   the purple heart as you were but i i just talk  about that you choose then you know you you grow   up as this immigrant or rough rough nick i'm i'm  calling you a roughneck i don't know if you called   yourself that but i'm going to call you a rough  nick in in uh in brighton beach in brooklyn and um   and you know you come to american university  don't graduate um i'm i'm gonna reveal that   secret that's in the blog i'm not embarrassing  you i'm not embarrassing you on the second try   i did it on the first try no big deal but um  you did on the second try and and you know   like what is it that makes you say you know i am  going to put myself on the line for this country   that was not even the country of my birth and  say i'm gonna go volunteer and and you ended up   in some in a very some very hinky you know  situations in iraq just sort of talk about   the decision to get in and then you know what you  learned there in in fallujah um uh you know when   you're when your life was really on the line  for this country you know i don't have i don't   think i i don't have an answer that quite even  satisfies myself as to why i know that there is a   there is definitely a common uh interest  between my all of my brothers and and i to   serve i think it's a combination of uh wanting  to do something to uh return the favor to the   to the united states our home that welcomed  us not the one that we were born in   but i think there's also a recognition of um  the fact that it just was a good way to channel   our um lack of focus and add uh you know give us  a little bit of focus and discipline growing up i   think it served all of my brothers quite well so  it was a mutually beneficial situation a win-win   uh for i thought that for the country  and for us to be able to serve   and then um you know in terms of service in in in  combat i i started out as an infantryman uh and   there is a strange maybe morbid sense of uh  testing yourself uh uh in under the most adverse   conditions and this nation went to war uh right  or wrong at the time you know that the thought   was that it was under threat from from uh you know  from an adversary and um i there was an urgency to   both test myself and contribute to  national security by serving overseas   i don't think you know many officers especially  at that level uh as a young captain really kind   of reflect on the deeper issues uh at the time  uh uh uh we we were more concerned about kind of   learning our craft um managing our organizations  to uh survive those those perils and um   what i've learned from my time in in combat  is that uh i'm trainable uh i which is you   know it's a good thing to learn about yourself is  that you you're trainable and you actually could   learn to react to uh react to contact react to  ambush and you know remain uh cool calm collected   and respond the way you're supposed to uh to to  to achieve tactical uh victories and things of   that nature um i learned that i was a very very  quick study frankly in a lot of ways even though   uh maybe my my earlier academic disinclination  didn't suggest that but if i'm focused and i   uh i apply myself to something i could right  now this is a very very sharp learning curve   talking about a book and i could see that like  that you know i'm still maybe at best halfway   up this hill but it's been a steep ascent and i i  kind of i guess pride myself on you know uh being   able to um meet this sharp learning curve and  and uh you know not be overcome by apprehension   anxiety and things of that nature so i learned  a bunch of different things i think about myself   again with the humility which i appreciate but um  i was we're fast forwarding what i want to get to   at the end but i just i have to ask this now  because just listen to you talk about this it   gets my blood pressure up and it gets me pissed  how like how did it feel you know we'll get back   into how this all happened but how did it feel  when you were getting just assaulted in your   manhood getting a challenge by you know keyboard  warriors like me you know who have no blisters   on their hands like after you know after what you  had put on the line for this country that had to   kind of surprise you right that that you you were  you're in fallujah you you were serving in a very   dangerous as an infantryman and a very dangerous  situation for this country you have tropical in   your body as a result of this uh you're you know  the when that ied goes off when you're in fallujah   obviously this is a life or death situation  and you know years later and a decade later   here you are you know having to listen to you know  these pajama conservative pajama boy podcasters   telling you that you know you're a cuckold  like well like that has to just drive you   mad tim don't be so hard on the conservatives  why are you bashing the conservatives so hard um i'm not there are some really great principled  conservatives like yourself there were a lot of   pajama boys out there trying to attack me uh you  my initial response is something as whimsical   as like a laughing face uh emoji in response  because you can't really take him seriously i   mean honestly you know uh what what what i what  is meaningful to me are my friends my family uh   my professional network and the support they offer  the encouragement they offer and some some clown   you know uh over the airwaves were on um on social  media attacking me i'm like you have to maintain   some perspective about these things like i i it's  a source of entertainment to sometimes look at   that kind of nonsensical uh criticism like okay i  wish some of these people would say something like   this to my face but nobody has so far nobody's  actually done that i i've just had felt a lot of   warmth and love from people uh it's just the loud  obnoxious voices sometimes that that get the most   play um and you know we certainly we we've  received threats and things of that nature um   both to the home and uh over over social media  but uh and i i'm mindful of it i've received the   training on how to uh kind of identify threats  and and and um understand kind of the the force   protection environment and uh keep my family  safe so i'm i'm alert to these these things but   i really don't take most of it seriously  i think they're they're a bunch of clowns   um you know weekend warriors uh folks that  not and this is not a dig on like you know   what sometimes uh national guard gets described  on that's what i'm talking about i'm talking   about guys that get get dressed up in camouflage  and get all these like cool looking weapons but   can't shoot them straight and uh you know don't  know which end is that the danger end and so forth   i mean it's really hard to kind of take folks  like that seriously i'm glad you can get some   amusement from it i just hope you get some stylus  knowing that it phil's filled me with rage every   day having to look at it um so someone someone  had to channel the rage so you could have the   uh um so you can have the laughs  i think um i want to get to the   on that note though i'll tell you in hindsight and  i missed the window because i was still in uniform   but i did write an article for law fair point at  one point and it really enraged that kind of that   far right like loudmouth because i said basically  what you need to do with these folks is you need   to litigate you need to sue them you hit them  in the pocketbooks and they won't be so kind of   mouthy anymore because they've paid a cost for it  it's not kind of one of those anonymous attacks or   you know uh something with no cost so i i would  encourage that in general like we need to let's   let's go ahead and apply our energies to putting  together a fund to kind of you know to sue some of   these folks and get them to shut up and stop being  so obnoxious that's right it sounds like dominion   voting systems is doing pretty good on that front  actually so uh we need more folks like that um   i want to get to the reason why this book  happened the the infamous phone call but but   just before that i kind of want you to paint  this picture because we haven't talked about   your twin brother you're very close with um you  do you call them is that what you use yeah yeah   um i won't try to say it we'll just call him twin  alex eugene but without the rest of the in you   huge um uh so you're i what what did it feel like  and i'm just reading the book and i just i didn't   feel like i got the satisfactory answer you get  you get brought into the lighthouse by fiona hill   and and and you're working in the white house with  you're down the hall is your twin brother you guys   are getting in these fights and little odessa or  immigrants from you know your dad as a working   class family and that just had to blow your mind  to think that when in the halls of the white house   um uh was both you and your twin brother at the  same time in service to this country i mean that   the first day you walked in it just had to really  be a moment no well i mean that's definitely true   we were i mean i think the first day and the  last day frankly i i was always awestruck walking   through those hallowed halls um where so much  was online on a daily basis where you had really   the the best uh and and the brightest looking  to do good for this nation and i was just um   i was i was in awe of walking those halls that so  many uh brilliant people had walked before me and   uh that were serving with me uh at the  professional level not the political level   because um as we as we both know uh most of the  trump administration were like you know third   tier uh uh picks certainly as you got later on  into the administration but the professionals the   folks coming out of departments and agencies were  were amazing and eugene and i being there together   the vinman twins uh you know the nfc the  nfc twins is what we were known as we were   the only two twins to serve on the nfc  maybe the last ones too for that matter   it's that the uh ghostbusters first and last  yeah first and last the ghostbusters you   we crossed the streams with the two of us being  there and you know the whole there was a uh almost   total annihilation of the white house um but  um it was pretty amazing and it was humbling um i don't know i just get chills just thinking  about it i had to walk in there and think holy   holy cow i don't know if i'm allowed to cuss at  the commonwealth called but holy cow like that   we both we both made it here here at the same time  so your first day i want you to talk though also   about the first the first day on the job um at the  nsc something kind of interesting happened um tell   us about that yeah i just walked in there did the  standard uh human resources in processing you know   like uh the media policies here's your computer  password and then i took a break to turn on the   the uh you know the news feed in my office and  uh listening on the uh on president trump's uh   um summit um you know um what are they what are  these things called again at the end the press   conferences there we go the press conference at  the end of summit with uh with vladimir putin   and it may it kind of derailed my day frankly  i didn't really get all my in-processing done   because it was crisis management and it was a  kind of a uh dispelled some of my thoughts about   the fact that this you know i could navigate  this uh and um contribute to national security   you know with maybe minimal hand grenades and  minimal um craziness uh i i thought uh or i had   hoped that would be the case and my first they  kind of quickly dispelled that notion and the   magic of that moment with yuge uh just dissipated  pretty quickly it seems like um so your your job   at the nsc uh just for context for folks uh was it  was overseeing security policy related to russia   and and eastern eastern europe and so you get in  that day and it and it's day one and and that the   helsinki press conference is happening you write  in the book that someone advised you that you were   coming into the most dangerous and challenging  environment you've ever been in uh including   fallujah um i mean i guess my my biggest question  is like why why did you do why did you do it like   i didn't i i aren't you thinking to yourself i  just i i don't know if this is the right right   for me to put myself in this situation where i'm  in charge of security policy in such a fraught   situation with this president it's it's you know  the you could sense the ah i had for for the   the office and for the the mission and i think  there were a couple of different things frankly   it's one of those jobs you just simply can't  refuse even to your own peril it's one of those   things where you know if you think that you could  contribute to the mission and i had some hopes of   kind of you know a brooklyn guy talking to a  queen's guy you know writing memos that could   resonate with the president i could talk his  language and say well this is why everything   is transactional with the president but this  is why you know this transaction makes sense   and uh in addition that there was frankly an  element of hubris and as as indicated by by my   belief that i could kind of reach the guy  but um you know that that things could be   different and i also wanted to really i mean this  is a position that kind of sought for for a while   i remember having a conversation with michael  mcfaul uh the ambassador to uh he was senior   director for european affairs so if he owns a  hill's predecessor but he was also the ambassador   to moscow uh for um while i was while i was  serving in in um russia and was sitting in   espaso house having a conversation about and i  kind of you know soft pitch the idea of like what   about serving on the national security council was  like you should definitely do it he encouraged me   i was like okay well how do i and then i started  thinking about how to get there i was fortunate to   serve in a awesome position um at the pentagon  as the as the pulmonal affairs officer political   military affairs officer for the chairman of the  jordan chiefs so i was the belly button for for   the military on how we face you know the challenge  of a resurgent aggressive russia i authored   the the kind of the definitive document on how to  do this and that's how it came to the attention   of fiona hill so i thought i you know i'd kind of  earned the the the right to to be competitive to   be considered and when i went in for my interview  fiona kind of hired me on the spot she'd already   seen me in action and she was like uh she i was  talking to her deputy this awesome um you know   four-time uh sir uh um servant in the white house  on the national security council they retired army   colonel rich hooker he uh he was the one that kind  of did the bulk of the interview because she was   tied up in meetings and she kind of came into the  office uh she like kind of glanced over at him he   kind of gave a little head nod and she's like okay  when can you join i was like okay awesome so so i   have to ask you this um as the as the preeminent  russia security expert as somebody who's day one   on the security council was there uh at the day of  helsinki what the heck do you think happened when   trump and putin were talking obviously you can't  break any any you know security clearance stuff   but just as gen generally speaking like what  like what is happening in those conversations uh no uh so you know it's interesting i have  frankly a little bit less i've got less concern   than the general public first of all you know  the the uh at one point the interpreter at the   center of the storm that was in the room with  this conversation somebody i knew and actually   had traveled i before less than you know i guess  two months before probably about six weeks before   she was my translator when when we were taking  the chairman of the joint chiefs to meet with his   russian counterpart so i knew that you know she  was in another uh kind of russian immigrant uh   patriot she wouldn't do something that you know  was it was going to be if there was something   illegal or unlawful she wouldn't be kind of a  party to that so there was that that component   that you know put things a little bit at ease and  second of all i also understand that putin is a   pretty savvy operator he's a case officer that's  how it was timed in the kgb and he didn't really   need to apply all a lot of tools uh on uh on uh  the tool trump you're saying trump was an easy   mark he's he was the easy mark he was a uh useful  idiot it would be the term of our in in the uh in   the kind of the human community um he was somebody  that you know aspired to be a authoritarian   had had those tendencies really admired  authoritarians and uh you know was looking   to kind of ingratiate himself to a certain extent  with um with putin and being an easy mark he was   another an army term free chicken and i used  this one on on uh for an interview one time   because he again he easy mark he didn't have to  put it didn't have to work for it so i think he   you know he was manipulated in certain ways um but  in ways that were useful to trump himself who is   uh not a successful businessman let's not let's  let's not buy in that into that thing based on   his failed business his reputation in in new york  there should be a rule if you can't even get ric   you can't win a majority in your own locality you  should be disqualified for running for kind of   higher office because nobody in new york would  vote for him because everybody understood who   he was he was a kind of a used car salesman  but because of uh uh he's he's kind of savvy   in at least you know trying to to work with  people and charming on some on a small level um   he i think i think trump saw some utility in  buying into putin's line that russia wasn't   involved in interference in 2016 election because  that would itself if it if he if russia was then   trump didn't earn it and it cast a shadow  over his his administration so it was easy   for it for trump to kind of just you know take  that line hook line and sinker and uh you know   i don't think it was particularly savvy to  criticize the the uh the federal government   on its operations but that's where he went with it  sure so fast forward to the to the zolinski call   the infamous zolensky call uh you're sitting there  just paint the picture for everyone you're sitting   there in the room what what happens and then  why why did you make the decision that you did   which i think is the fundamental question of  the book and what leads you to here right now   it was it was there was really like almost i'm  gonna work backwards and say there was really   no no decision to be made it was just simply  the right thing to do i i knew it viscerally   that this was my my job to report this  and to have people advise the president   to reverse course because what he was  looking to do was immoral unethical and   probably criminal uh if it wasn't for the fact  that the president had presidential immunity um so   that decision was relatively easy i mean i  had sworn an oath to defend sport and defend   the constitution of the united states against  all enemies foreign and domestic and i thought   that the u.s was under threat and there was  really no length that i was willing to not   go to to to defend to live up to my obligations  so that that's that part was easy but what what   brought me to that phone call is you know the  fact that work been working on this portfolio   and watching a slow moving train wreck unfold uh  with the president seeking uh what ended up being   a continuing enterprise to tip the scales in his  favor to um upend you know an election process and   to ultimately try to steal an election i was at  the leading edge of this giuliani played a hand in   kind of eliminating the obstacles getting um mashi  ivanovich fired uh you know that spawn of uh of of   trump donald uh don jr you know weighed in and  and ultimately was who he's the person that got   martial ivanovich fired because her position  became untenable once he tweeted about her and   then seeing this unfold into a hold on security  assistance seeing this unfold into a pressure   campaign to get the ukrainians to you know to give  up the goods these are this doesn't this is the   similar to what was announced recently where the  president was all i need is simple announcement   of an um investigation i'll take it from  there that's all he was looking for and um   and watching you know folks first from outside  of government but then folks inside a government   uh uh gordon sandlin and mick mulvaney uh be  drawn into this enterprise and thinking that   you know maybe it's just do-gooders folks that  want to ingratiate themselves with the president   you know doing the uh doing doing a bidding of  sorts for him and then watching it culminate with   the president actually being the driving force  so that's that's interesting just on that context   really quick so do you so you're you sort of had  watched this what you call the slow motion train   wrecking happen so when the president asks zlinski  for the favor you know of looking into crowdstrike   and you know looking into hunter biden is  that bad do you think that that background   you know knowing what was going on with rudy and  and you know all those other uh goombas um help   you uh you know was that essential to determining  that this was something they had to report   or was it was it just the president did regardless  was was it was reportable no it was i think   uh that what the president did regardless was  reportable but i had the context to understand   what was going on tim tim morrison had just  joined the team and although he was briefed pretty   darn well by fiona about what was going on with  this with his slow motion train wreck he really   couldn't quite grasp like the kind of the nuance  there uh he hit this wasn't his area of expertise   he's an arms control guy he had frankly had no  business being in in that european portfolio   uh senior as a senior director so but i could tell  that he was he you know afterwards when we were   going through the press release he was like okay  this didn't we didn't talk about this in his drive   kind of way we didn't talk about this so we could  only we could say uh there was a congratulatory   phone call or something like that um so he  didn't miss it the other people that were less   you know privy to the to the to what was going  on uh and less less understanding you know even   understood less and i knew that uh as the director  for european affairs ukraine in my portfolio   it was my responsibility you know frankly if i  didn't say anything uh the president's wrongdoing   abuse of power would would not have been  uncovered and in a way i think the president would   the president wouldn't simply put if i didn't make  my complaint the president wouldn't probably have   not been impeached the first time yeah and um you  know that was the beginning of the enterprise it   continued on through uh you know a mismanagement  of kovid because he wasn't held accountable by   republican leadership it you know continued  on through uh suppressing peaceful protests uh   continued on through trying to steal an election  at every point he was getting signals that he   could do whatever he wants without accountability  uh from from the republican establishment uh   unfortunately this this leads to something i've  been wondering um you know you say that it had   you not reported he wouldn't have been in peace  at all i i i 100 agree that that's that's the case   ah why are why weren't there more vindents  you know i mean olivia troy obviously   and elizabeth newman spoke out about the olivia  toy in particular on the covid um uh task force   um which i thought was really brave but i i don't  you know maybe this is just me you know being too   conspiratorial whatever but it seems like that  there was the ukraine deal was replicated in   turkey and in saudi arabia and in other places um  like you know why weren't there more examples of   this over the course of the four of the four  years and do you think that there were other   actions like this that just didn't go reported it  seems unlikely this was the only one no no it's uh   that's absolutely true and that's why you know one  of the things i talk about now is accountability   and close examination of wrongdoing so we could  learn from from uh um from abuse of power and   potentially kind of harden ourselves i mean one  of the solutions that my twin brother has actually   been talking about is there probably should be an  ig in um an inspector general on the nsc to report   wrongdoing with kind of obligations to report  up to congress as a as a check on the executive   branch there wasn't which is one of the one of  the reasons that this unfolded uh as complexly   as it did uh and you know whistleblower had i  felt like there was no other recourse to then   to go through you know intelligence community  uh inspector general channels to get to make   sure that this didn't get swept under the rug um  the question as to why there were more weren't   more of these i unfortunately there are two two  there are two uh different branch possibilities   and one presents maybe about a rosy uh uh  understanding that people were trying to   preserve their position as guard rails and protect  the institutions that they were charged with   you could live with something like that almost uh  there's an enormous amount of hubris and some sort   of failed understanding of the fact that there are  countless people in position that could step in   and do the job and do it as well and continue to  protect the institutions and pretend continue to   serve the nation so that's the rosy one the less  rosy one is careerism and self-advancement and uh   not foreclosing on on possibilities to cash in at  some point and i uh my fear is that it's actually   those those are the motivations rather than  the protecting the institution ones because   i'll tell you as i you know being now labeled a  whistleblower you know an anti-trumper somebody   that testified against the president there are  plenty of options that have been foreclosed for me   and those people that remain silent have access  to all those options and and uh they in in a   in a cold calculation some might suggest if  they're purely most mercenary and self-serving   that it was the right thing to do uh but that's  not the way i live my life that's not the way i   see things and uh certainly it is not the way i  behaved uh but that's there's a whole kind of uh   cohort that i believe that thinks that way yeah  there's a massive cohort that thinks that way   it's huge guys just it truly is amazing that  you can say on one hand the number of people   who decided to step forward and say what  they knew and know and do the right thing   um over the course of the four years it's it's  rather astonishing um i want to get some of   the consequences you said but i i want to talk a  little bit about the testimony um first and um you   know the most powerful part of the testimony for  me was obviously the the title of the book here   right matters um which was speaking to your father  and and so tell people who don't know your father   was worried about you both from the standpoint  of uh he was a supporter of the president uh and   from a standpoint i think of his experience you  know in russia and concerns about retaliation etc   so just sort of talk about that and thinking about  testament testifying and and you know recognizing   you had to talk to a country but you really had  to talk to your dad too yeah well that was uh   that that was a stroke of genius from my twin  brother uh including that component um which   you know it's it's good that your your the  little voice in your head is actually standing   in front of you sometimes because uh he you  know it's harder to ignore it but as soon as   he mentioned it uh you know i put the words to  paper and i wanted to put my dad's mind at ease   um i think you know early on there was probably  the thinking from my dad that you know trump is   the president of the united states and you know uh  the offer the office and being uh a trump voter uh   he probably thought that the president  was you know was potentially in the right   uh the more he learned about it the more he  dispel he dispelled that notion and as soon as   my mom basically forbade fox news in the house  and he started listening to other sources uh   he was he started to be deprogrammed but um i  think if that was that was a small portion of   his concern and you know i think in the  book i talk about the fact that my dad   you know i had hoped early on before he understood  the circumstances and why i spoke up that i would   march in the president's office you know give him  a sharp salute and say uh how do we work this out   how do we fix this but um you know he there's  no doubt in his mind that i did the right thing   and most of his concern frankly was based on the  fact that he feared for my safety and that in   his context uh growing up in the soviet union you  know he was a small child when uh um joseph stalin   was the leader i mean he actually was 11  when uh stalin passed away so he didn't   quite didn't quite understand what was going on  at the at that point in time he's lionized and   you know this this is this goes into my bailiwick  of russia so i could i'm going to take a   30 second six pound on this but anyway he's uh  stalin gets denounced by by khrushchev the next   leader and then you know there's a we learn about  mass atrocities by by joseph stalin where you know   thousands and thousands of people i'm sorry not  thousands millions of people were slaughtered   uh and people were put into concentration  camps called gulags and stuff like that   so in his mind uh you know that's the  beginning of his kind of uh his awareness   of what could happen if he the authoritarian uh it  got a little bit better i guess under khrushchev   and brezhnev and and you know um those that was  my father's experience you just went to an insane   asylum if you challenged the the autocrat you know  and they doped you up with a whole bunch of stuff   so he was concerned about you know my my  uh physical well uh well well-being the   impact on my brother my twin brother who's you  know still active duty you know serving right   across the hall for me and then the impact  on family and i think that's where you know   he wanted me to to be particularly cautious and i  was in a lot of ways just not going to be deterred   from from doing what i thought was right and not  not you know basically taking half measures the   way most people would feel me comfortable  taking which is really how i ran afoul the   department of defense they'd prefer i had kind  of watered down my testimony uh be more but i've   been more less forthright and more reluctant  or something of that nature and um you know   um i i wasn't going to do that i just the  whole thing is just like a movie arc for me   it just gives me chills i can think about the  score in the background and it's just your dad   40s in his 40s leaves russia to he  leaves the soviet union to give you guys   this opportunity you you get to the height of  power in america um you have to make a decision to   whether or not to do the right thing your father  who is the reason why you got into that position   is nervous because of that that past and that  that history and here you are having to say to   him that you learned from him you know don't worry  dad i'll be fine for telling the truth i i just   like i just think that's just such a beautiful  arc and i just wonder like sitting here today   but does he feel that way that you did fine  by telling the truth do you feel that way   i i do feel fine and i think he you  know he has he he we're all kind of uh   in certain ways pretty idealistic which adds to  our resiliency and he he sees that i'm kind of   like i've landed on my feet not because anything  kind of fell into my lap but because i worked hard   to make sure that my family you know could could  i could still provide for my family and i've   invested a lot of time into pursuing a doctorate  and into um you know some consulting uh into   working at a think tank so he sees some of those  things in the fact that uh i i'm recovered um   but he probably he doesn't quite understand  that you know it's still extremely challenging   i kind of haven't quite figured out exactly what i  wanted i know my objectives uh but i haven't quite   figured out what my my second career is going to  be or what i want to do i mean i i've described a   couple things i'm i'm invested in but i'm not sure  if which one of those i want to do just yet so   we're still trying to figure out kind of we're  dealing with the fallout still trying to figure   out what we want to do next uh and really uh  enjoying exploring a bunch of different options   and working hard to do that you know i had i had  uh a conversation with um governor schwarzenegger   uh promoting my book which is pretty awesome  and unique opportunity to talk to your like   your your your uh hero uh who then somehow refers  to you as a hero it's a little surreal uh and then   kind of uh you know so there's been some pretty  interesting things um but on a day-to-day basis   there are many challenges to overcome and uh this  is something that we miss about whistleblowers   that the cost that they they kind of uh uh  incur for for trying to do the right thing   well i'm um if he's if he's uncertain because of  your not complete certainty i'm happy to send him   a video message letting him know that you are you  are indeed fine and will continue to be fine um   while you while you work these things out with  your family because there is there is a real   toll i don't want to minimize that but but i  mean it's i i think that your story demonstrates   that that speaking that people that spoke  out ended up i think feeling the best about   themselves and i think that they ended up um  you know i think in the long arc um obviously   will be seen to have done the right thing i think  that's true of you and olivia and others um i've   got some questions from the audience um if you if  you want to ask a question you can submit in the   youtube text to chat um i've got a couple more for  alex but but since this is on topic i want to go   uh to this question um that's asked what went  through your head once trump was acquitted   by senate republicans did you know that you'd  be removed from the white house that day   and and what did it make you think about your  decision to come forward well i think i had a uh i   certainly didn't miss the fact that it was almost  certain that the president would be acquitted by   um by the senate there's never been a precedent  in which you know the the uh party has voted   against their president uh in an impeachment uh  to to remove him so i there was little doubt of   that doing that that happening you know i had my  counsel my um legal counsel were uh those there   are folks that are public and the folks that are  not uh their their republican stalwarts i actually   uh selected a team of republicans to kind of keep  providing me situational awareness by leveraging   their access to the white house they could pick  up the phone and say hey uh how we doing you know   like try to minimize that the fallout for me it  was a a little bit of tactical maneuvering on my   part so they were and they counseled me that  there's no way that the president's gonna be   removed and they wanted me to they also  wanted me to take some half measures   but that wasn't my job my job was to provide  factual testimony on what i'd witnessed and let   the other folks decide and live with what  the uh you know live with their decisions   um and that was that i i tried to not overthink  you know uh the the entire arc of events and   how this was going to play out i was just trying  to simply do my my my part which was to uh to   respond to a subpoena to provide truthful  testimony based on what i witnessed and   then uh leave it to senior folks uh that  are accountable to their constituencies to   to make the decision and it didn't i absolutely  you know i this is a that was a vindictive   uh um administration so there was little  doubt i was going to stay on in certain   ways i thought maybe after i offered my public  testimony i'd be fired uh that didn't happen   the president was counseled to wait until after  he was uh until after he was acquitted and then   he waited a couple days that was the surprising  part because i thought you know he was acquitted   on wednesday i'd be out by thursday i've already  taken all my stuff out but of course i missed   one key fact that everybody knows firing day  was friday that's when firing has happened so   he was you know the dramatic firing day i  waited until friday so yeah friday evening even govern the airways for the next couple days and  to send a message to anybody else you have to make   sure you you deliver on firing day press before  everything it is interesting isn't it that the   president thought that it would ex increase his  exposure to impeachment to fire you and so he just   did it two days after he didn't have any exposure  i think that's very telling about his his mindset   for those who don't know i mean not you of uh  i think taking this in much better cheer than   a lot of other people would um i was and once  again enraged on your behalf by the notion that   that friday that there was i mean essentially a  perp walk out of the white house um of you and   your brother um who did not testify obviously  um and was decided to be guilty of association   by association um walk people through that and  just i to me that was one of the most obvious   there's a long list of unconscionable actions of  the trump administration but that was that was   on my you know top 25. so there was  there's frankly a sense of relief   um that only equated to maybe a couple of other  instances in my life you know uh leaving combat   zone and you know landing on on safe ground in the  u.s and then leaving uh russia after serving there   as a hache in a fishbowl where you're constantly  under surveillance and really quite beleaguered   i mean frankly that was even in certain ways more  emotional coming back to the united states after   serving in russia for three years and then being  walked out of the white house but they're similar   and i there was a enormous sense of relief that  i was leaving uh and you know the line i was out   of the lines then uh you know i had a little  bit um at that time i still had confidence   or some confidence that you know the the army and  the department of defense would would look out for   me and i'd still have a career you have to recall  that you know at this point for the in the book i   mentioned the fact i had already been selected for  senior service college which is a extremely high   a tough kind of cut only seven percent seven  half percent get selected for for war college   and i was all but assured promotion of colonel and  i thought you know i could move on i'd figure out   what to do initially there were discussions  about doing some something pretty useful for   the department of defense as a as a instructor  and lecturer at the national defense university   but i pre pretty much quickly uh you know uh  that those those uh wishful uh notions were   dispelled when i was offered uh uh the the unique  opportunity to be uh my wife jokes a docent at the   yet to be opened army museum in fort belvoir about  as far away from the from dc as possible and uh   you know basically keeping me as far away from  the pentagon as possible and the capital um so   and i already had plenty of indications that uh  i was on very very shaky ground senior very very   senior officials three-star you know no no one  of them is now a four-star kind of i said that is   basically uh that i was toast um so uh but at the  on that day i was it was mainly a sense of relief   and what about having to have your brother  there i i guess maybe that was was that nice   or you had or were you upset that he got wrapped  in well definitely i mean he didn't he didn't   deserve it but he also was in in the same vein as  i was he was investigating wrongdoing by uh the   national security adviser o'brien and uh it wasn't  just the fact that he had the same face as me   and the same last name that that was part of it  but he was also investigating wrongdoing by senior   officials and it was convenient for them to kind  of push him out in this in the same breath things   that frankly haven't been addressed yet uh this  is one of the examples of you know accountability   not uh we haven't actually had a full accounting  of wrongdoing so um at the same time we walked   out of the building your head's held high and uh  knowing that we we'd serve it honorably yeah um   talk about uh only get to some politics of the day  a couple other questions from the audience but um   talk about the retirement aspect of this right  so i i had a someone when uh responded to me   on twitter about about this event and said  that they were mostly upset at the military   you know for not having your back in this regard  um there was a lengthy period you go over in the   book of trying to weighing this notion about  whether you should retire or not um talk about   why you waited so long and and just that agonizing  notion of that experience well i mean i frankly   wanted to to compel the army and the apartment  defense to do the right thing that's why i waited   until the literally the very very last day that  i could do it without incurring what's called   an additional duty service application because if  once you you you receive the army gives you orders   your you execute those orders and then sometimes  in executing those orders you incur more service   obligation so i did it i dropped my retirement  paper on the very very last day i could do it   without incurring an additional service obligation  that could have been as lengthy as three years   and um in a lot of ways the way things unfolded  uh you know justified my my actions i'll i'll come   around to that in a second but i mean all the data  points i had collected from these these seniors   telling me one of them very kindly being super  forthright but something that i'm very grateful   for just telling me based on his understanding of  the military that i probably wouldn't be able to   continue to serve and that my prospects might be  sunny or elsewhere and then another one telling   me that i had flown too close to the sun and uh  some people wouldn't take hardly to you know to to   my actions just living up to my oath of office  and and staying true to my values and um you   know i talked about those in in the book and then  ultimately the the military not living up to uh to   this pretense of protecting me you know there were  some statements made about the fact that i'll be   okay returning back to the military there wouldn't  be any investigations there actually weren't but   there were investigations into into me based on  false kind of statements uh offered by the the   white house um and you know the president uh  actually the president's chief of staff um um   meadows mark meadows calling in the the secretary  of defense the secretary of the army to denounce   them for uh considering putting my name on a  promotion list you know how far down in the weeds   that is that's like you know it's just crazy stuff  and then ultimately like i point i said earlier   dropped my paperwork on the last day it  was a wednesday within two days i had my   retirement orders people don't understand that  how the how improbable that is in the military   it is a year-long process it takes six months  to get your orders they turned my orders in two   days and then on that on that day same day  they pre-positioned this list that had been   held up for months at that point it was supposed  to be coming out in april they didn't release it   until july and they held it for months and that  same day that my uh retirement was approved they   were happy to put that list forward uh and uh you  know so everything really kind of justified that   i wouldn't i wouldn't be able to kind of continue  to serve and my twin brother um you know it's his   story to tell i don't want to really go too  far into it but he's he continues to suffer   some of the same stigma associated with our  um you know proper actions uh to this day   that's insane to me that there's still a stigma  it's insane i just i think that there's a black   mark on the military uh you can't at least  get some solace knowing that mark meadows   who is coming after you and improperly  trying to investigate you is now holding   uh imaginary cabinet meetings at a gaudy nouveau  reach golf club um and so you know things have   turned out all right for you by comparison um i  want to get into some rapid fire politics stuff   uh we've got about 10 minutes left um some  of these questions from the audience some are   you know me being curious uh what your take is  um from the audience a couple of them um first   what what is your thought about the treatment  of the capital police after january 6   and and how did your experience kind  of inform what you saw happen that day   it's atrocious i feel a great deal of kinship with  those folks because they're basically attacked by   uh you know um uh trumpist uh figures and uh  far-right media um for just simply doing their   their jobs holding the line you know in in a  critical moment for this for this nation uh for   our democracy and i i definitely feel a sense of  kinship with him i've tried to reach out and talk   to those folks um and give them some some support  either as well as other folks deeper into uh   trump's italian retaliation on kind of good order  and discipline you know folks that like that   reported eddie gallagher i've made a connection  with one of the seals and maintained you know uh   contact with with him just to to to exchange  thoughts and and uh send support to each other   so it's it's a horrible thing to do it's  interesting just just had this conversation   with schwarzenegger i know we're rapid fire but  he governor schwarzenegger was laser focused   on unity and i completely agree with that and i  would love for this country to come together to   set aside our differences but i think frankly we  can't do that with open wounds and with an absent   accountability and shining a light on you know the  big lie on the coveted mismanagement that emerged   out of the uh the uh house republicans i'm sorry  senate republicans failing to hold the president   accountable all these things need to be dealt with  so like this we could come together as a country   that connects to our next rapid question from  the audience what do you think trump will do   if he would be elected 2024 and do you think he  is an aberration or a sign of the gop to come   um i think that um i think it's  i don't think he's viable in 2024   i don't think he's viable in 2024  primarily because um he continues to   get smaller and smaller slivers of the  pie and that's just not a winning strategy   but trumpism is alive and well and prospering  and i think in a lot of ways what you have is um   you know a further radicalization of a  once honorable party the grand old party   and uh until they break with uh with trumpism  um there are a lot of risks to our democracy   i totally agree okay two quick foreign  policy questions i just i had to ask   you reading this book you're talking  about the hearts and minds effort in iraq   i just looking back on that like what like what  was the failure there i and what are the lessons   learned from that and i just think that somebody  coming from your background who understands the   hearts and minds process really did work in europe  um as far as selling the american democratic ideal   not in iraq what what was the takeaway from that  i think part in part it was an application of   resources uh it was half measures and a lack of  will of uh by the american people and i think that   in part justifies um president biden's decision  to withdraw from afghanistan is because he   senses that we there is no will to apply adequate  resources to actually win the hearts and minds it   will take a lot more with regard to providing  security for the population it will take a lot   more with regards to treasure uh and potentially  uh blood uh and lives lost and uh we we didn't do   that obviously in um under the bush administration  uh with with our amount of resources that were   required in order to really kind of yield effects  uh so i think that's probably it it's not that we   that sounds maybe there's an element  of hubris in that because i think   there's still kind of a sense that american  accessionalism would be everything we can't   but at the same time i think it's  really a resource issue uh for those   okay and uh so afghanistan then just really quick  what is your sense of the withdrawal uh i i have   very deeply mixed feelings about it because of the  blood and treasure that i spent and i keep asking   myself why and part of the answer uh is because  uh the military leadership not the military as   an institution but the military leadership did  not provide the proper council did not you know   provide the um the best advice to  achieve military and political objectives   and uh i think understanding that we weren't  going to achieve our military objective military   and political objectives we couldn't continue  to pour resources there endlessly um so i think   the president ultimately is doing doing the right  thing but there are things that need to be there   there are checks that have have not been cashed  yet and those include a check uh to to those that   helped us those uh interpreters that um helped  this country uh and we need to help get those of   people safe and secure one last question from me  and then we're gonna go to a final from a special   questioner um uh rush using your expertise what  can we expect next from like what is the short   middle term expectation from russia as far as  aggression facing us and our in the bilateral   relationship uh it's been unchecked and it's  been unchecked mainly um because certainly in   the past four years the trump administration uh  even though a lot of the government was marching   lockstep to apply sanctions and to implement a  national security strategy for russia the signals   from the chief executive were that russia could  act with impunity um you know we need to do we   needed along the way to deter russia from putting  boundaries on u.s uh troops from cyber attacks we   didn't do that because the chief executive  uh uh blocked a lot of those uh so i think   the biggest challenge in the short term  is going to be re-establishing deterrence   indicating to the russians that they can't  act with impunity but that is also going to   increase the the risks of uh short-term risks  of confrontation because the russians there's   a mismatch between their expectations of getting  away with stuff and being held accountable so we   have to go through that that passage and that's  going to be a challenging that's going to be a   challenge for the biden administration for sure  well the real star of the book um is your wife   rachel uh who's also a star on twitter.com i  recommend folks follow her knapsack hobbyist um   uh she uh helped you gather your team for the uh  for the testimony um she helped you with the it   sounds like the testimony itself uh stealed your  family i think through a real tough time a lot of   threats that were coming in um and so i wanted to  ask her one question uh based on the book that she   thought that we should that i should ask you and  and she points to a section about the engagement   and so in your engagement you say in  the book that you she was badgering you   to to to you know kind of get on with it and so  you sort of rushed the engagement and didn't do   the beautiful picturesque engagement that you'd  hoped for and she was wondering uh is it possible   there was that it was the fact that you were  over eager to be engaged and it was not her fault   and given the fact that you have a top secret  clearance it's hard to believe that a little   pressure from her was all it took for you to crack  so what do you say to that yes dear you're right   i was super super eager to marry you uh but  you could tell that story in your book okay   this is my book and that's the way their history  is gonna record it right now so encouragement for   you to do yours yeah she's she was awesome she uh  um you know both my wife my daughter my my twin   brother um you know they were you just uh there  were rocks throughout this whole thing and um   i'm very lucky to have them all so good i'm so  grateful for your service lieutenant colonel   vinman you are a blessing to our country i'm  so happy that that your dad made that decision   um all those years ago um and uh on behalf  of the commonwealth club i just want to   say to everybody our thanks to alexander vinman  for joining us uh and discussing that book here   right matters by the book it's wonderful and  there's much more we didn't get into during   this conversation like to thank the audience uh  for watching and for sending in the questions um   if you'd like to watch more programs or  support the commonwealth's club efforts   and making virtual hey virtual programming please  visit commonwealthclub.org online um tim miller   thank you stay safe stay healthy go tigers we'll  see you all soon thanks tim it was wonderful you

Channel: Commonwealth Club World Affairs of California

Views: 10,016

Keywords: CommonwealthClub, CommonwealthClubofCalifornia, Sanfrancisco, Nonprofitmedia, nonprofitvideo, politics, Currentevents, CaliforniaCurrentEvents, #newyoutubevideo, #youtubechannel, #youtubechannels, alexandervindman

Id: xtZ9bDNisrw

Length: 66min 29sec (3989 seconds)

Published: Tue Aug 10 2021