Alan Dershowitz and Dennis Prager in Dialogue with Rabbi David Woznica

professor alan dershowitz I'm going to introduce both of them and then they'll both join me here on the oedema and we decided by the way since we've been fortunate to have dialogue together in the past well we usually defer to the more formal professor and Mister and rabbi for this evening we're going to celebrate by referring to each other by the first name professor Dershowitz Allen is a Brooklyn native he is perhaps the best-known criminal lawyer in the world he has been called Israel single most visible defender the Jewish states lead attorney in the court of public opinion at Harvard Law School he was a Felix Frankfurter professor of law he is a graduate of Brooklyn College and Yale Law School he joined the Harvard Law School Factory faculty at the age of 25 after clerking for judge Basel Basel 10 and justice Arthur Goldberg and retired as a professor just four months ago professor Dershowitz has published more than 1,000 articles in magazines and journals which include the New York Times magazine The Washington Post The Wall Street Journal the New Republic the nation commentary Saturday Review the Harvard Law Review and the Yale Law Journal more than 300 of his articles have appeared in syndication in 50 national daily newspapers he has authored remarkably over 30 fiction and nonfiction works most recently in autobiography taking the stand my life and the law a wonderful wonderful retrospective on his life books will be available for purchase after the program at plot in front of Plotkin chapel which is out the door to your right in addition to numerous Law Review articles and books about criminal and constitutional law he has written taught and lectured about history philosophy psychology literature mathematics theology music and sports in 1983 the anti-defamation league of the B'nai B'rith presented him with the William Oh Douglas First Amendment Award for his quote compassionate eloquent leadership and persistent advocacy in the struggle for civil and human rights in presenting the award Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel said if there had been a few people like Alan Dershowitz during the 1930s and 1940s the history of European Jewry might have been different professor Dershowitz has been awarded honorary Doctor of Laws degree by yeshiva university the Hebrew Union College Brooklyn College Syracuse University and Haifa University and the New York criminal Bar Association honored him for his outstanding contribution as a scholar and dedicated defender of human rights Professor Alan Dershowitz [Applause] dennis prager is one of America's most respected talk-show hosts he has been broadcasting on radio in LA since 1982 and his show became nationally syndicated in 1999 widely sought after by TV shows for his opinions he's appeared a Larry King Live hardball Hannity CBS Evening News The Today Show CNN and many others and has lectured in all 50 states and on every continent mr. Prager is a Renaissance man with an uncanny ability to discuss a wide range of topics his opinions on human relationships child-rearing and the cultural divide are as fascinating as his views on religion international relations and morality the Los Angeles Times said Dennis Prager is an amazingly gifted man and moralist whose mission and life has been crystallized to get people obsessed with what's right and wrong mr. Prager has influenced millions of lives books lectures and broadcasts indeed his book happiness is a serious problem became a LA Times bestseller immediately upon publication and his most recent book still the best hope why the word world needs American values to triumph receive great national acclaim it too will be available for purchase following the program his latest media venture is Prager University and online not-for-profit University that brings major issues to light through compelling tightly focused five-minute video courses taught by Dennis Paul Johnson Jonah Goldberg and most recently Alan Dershowitz over 10 million people have viewed these courses mr. Prager was a fellow at Columbia University School of International Affairs where he did graduate work at the Middle Eastern Russian Institutes he has taught Russian and Jewish history at Brooklyn College and was appointed by President Reagan to the u.s. elevate delegation to the Vienna review conference on the Helsinki Accords Congressman David Dreier chairman of the House Rules Committee wrote as a member of the US Congress for more than 30 years I have met listen to and read the greatest living American thinkers Dennis Prager is one of these ladies and gentlemen Dennis Prager and Alan [Applause] thank you [Applause] I'm exhausted from the introductions already essentially one of the strengths of this congregation is that we have such a wide range of thought religiously theologically politically and that means no matter where we are tonight we're going to hear views that we agree with and some that we disagree with and it's my hope that this evening we will leave perhaps rethinking some of our own views or at least with a deeper appreciation for the thinking behind those with whom we might disagree so the areas that I hope we'll have a chance to discuss with both of you are your Judaism American politics anti-semitism and Israel so let's start with your Judaism because for both of you you play such a central role in your lives start with your early years you both grew up in observant Jewish homes you both went to yeshiva 's you won't let that lifestyle in retrospect are you glad that you had yeshiva education and why did you not continue an orthodox lifestyle professor I love my upbringing in Borough Park after the Second World War it was a wonderful place to grow up and it was a wonderful place to leave my achieve education was very much a mixed blessing I had terrible teachers many of them Holocaust survivors who were given jobs just out of mercy and sympathy but they had no idea how to teach and I matched them very well because I was a god-awful terrible student I remember once getting a grade of bein on knee - which means mediocre - I didn't even make it to mediocrity at least I had something to aspire to in my autobiography I have a photograph of my report card in my senior year in high school and it has a 60 in mathematics with a red circle around it a 60 in physics with a red circle around it a 65 in history and those are your best grades no I got an 80 in English I had a 68 average and I was suspended from the varsity basketball team which I had played on in my junior year in my senior year I was suspended for academic deficiency and I had no prospect of going to college nobody in my family had ever gone to college and my mother decided to file an application for me to go to Brooklyn College and I was lucky there was an exam and I made it by the skin of my teeth if you had asked me back then about my yeshiva background education it would have been all negative but something managed to filter through and I've now written several books about the Bible I wrote a book about Genesis I writing a book now that Abraham I loved studying the Bible I love reading the Talmud it's given me a competitive advantage understanding Tom Munich argument and discourse I would say it also gave me something to battle against it made me into the skeptic I am I am a skeptic about everything I'm a skeptic about religion I'm a skeptic about science I'm a skeptic about morality and I think the Shiva education gave me an ability to challenge authority and that wasn't what the rabbi's had in mind but that's certainly the way I used my yeshiva education so the answer to your question is look I'm glad I went to yeshiva I'm glad I left you Shiva and I remain very much a Jew but one that's hard to define post denominational eclectic skeptical about many of the religious traditions but warm and loving toward my tradition my eighth grade report card was forged very sore spot I would have needed a lawyer I tell people we really have parallel lives in some ways also Brooklyn also Orthodox also yeshiva though a different one mine was co-ed he unfortunately for him was all boys and I I grew up in that world and I I learned a tremendous amount just as you did I came to value it more later just as you did I was a lousy student just as you were I tell people I graduated in the top 80% of my high school class you're laughing but most audiences look at each other and go so that's not bad you're a sharp audience it's what don't you have that as a speaker you pretty much assess pretty early how how would it they are when I go I'm in the top top 80% and no one thinks it's funny it's a bad sign but that is that is the truth i but got better as college went on but I did the grounding that I received at my yeshiva was was has served me so well to be able to know the Torah like that and it say where we veer is afterwards while we both left orthodoxy in practice I retained one fundamental belief of Orthodoxy which puts me in a very rare unfortunately I don't say this as a anyway a self praise I say it almost a sadness but it's a fact I'm in a very rare group of Jews who believes that the Torah is from God but I'm not Orthodox so that I I believe that there are simply too many laws there are just too many I don't want to sit here and and belittle anything within any groups observances there are just too many and they become it becomes obsessive however I if you don't have a core belief that something is divine then you become your God if God doesn't tell me in the final analysis at least do not steal do not murder do not commit adultery etc then who tells me that the state is just composed of fallible humans like I am if God is not the ultimate source of morality were in trouble so that's where I guess we do we we do differ among other areas and that was that was the evolution that I took well we certainly do fundamentally differ on that I don't think even beings come with an instruction book I think we have to search out and find our own sense of morality we have to obviously look to the past I certainly started out believing and still believe that murder is wrong that at least four of the Ten Commandments are valid I'm not so big on graven images or coveting but I like most of the 10 commandments but I think I would have come to them on my own based on experience and I think we have to struggle to find an appropriate morality and the past should have a boat but not a veto and we do have a very different approach to two holy books so Dennis when you read something in the Torah do you disagree with how do you reconcile this is you have just asked most favored slide from our previous dialogue at the 92nd Street Y in in New York and I have liked it this so often I say folks I have this dialogue with Professor Alan Dershowitz we're talking about our different views of Judaism and so on in politics and at one point I said you know folks had just realized the biggest difference between Alan Dershowitz and myself when Alan disagrees with the Torah he says he is right and the tour is wrong and when I disagree with the Torah I say the Torah is right and I am wrong and then Alan said finally we agree on something so I have recited that story all over America but that really is that's that's the nutshell if I differ with the Torah my assumption is that I don't get it right I I have heard in some way overwhelmingly it has not been an issue but I fully acknowledge but I'll give you one quick example the Torah says you stone a particularly rebellious son data take the child to a court and they stone the child now obviously I don't want that to happen why does it Torah do it is the Torah primitive the Torah in that law did something unknown in human history at that time it took away the ability and the right of a parent to kill a child permanently because the key is not the stoning we don't know of any Jewish child that was stoned the key is that it said or must do it you cannot and the only reason I realize this is because I start from the premise that the Torah is right if I started from the premise that wherever I differ the Torah is wrong I would have said there's another example of Torah primitivity so here's here's the difference I start with an assumption that if something is in a holy book I have to give it deference and I have to least search out very hard why I disagree with it so you cite a very nice example of the stoning there's also another example and that same analysis has been made to justify the other example if a man suspects his wife of adultery he has to bring them to the center of the town and they go through this crazy process of feeding her some convoluted concoction and her stomach bursts or doesn't burst and it sounds awfully primitive when when you first read it and say oh my god what do I have in common with that kind of religion and then the rabbi's do say that it was the first religion ever to deny the husband the right to simply kill his wife if he suspected her of adultery he had to put her through a process we may disagree with the process but the process is there so the difference is that I read that I read the commentary and I say yeah the process is good I like that that's a very important part of it I've learned something but the result is horrible I don't agree with that and I can't reconcile how you can have a process as primitive as putting a physical concoction in somebody and determining their guilt or innocence not when you compare it to how the jury sometimes operates in America maybe it's not so primitive but but if I'm prepared to to say some parts of it are positive and some parts of it are negative how do you know how do you know that murder is not I don't know or do you acknowledge wrong do you is your position murder is wrong or I Allender she would strongly believe it is wrong well my position is all I can ever say is what I believe I don't think that there is a loading abstract morality in the sky that we are searching for I think that morality is an invention not a discovery and that we've done a fairly good job now of course the obvious answer is well the Nazis had a morality that they invented and I think that world opinion has condemned that look I'm not suggesting for a moment that my approach gives you perfect answers we live in an imperfect world and I don't expect to get perfect answers I'm not questing for certainty for me truth is a process not an end result you know the Torah says said Dec said Dec tear dose justice justice and then the word is you must pursue actually that's not a good translation you're dope means you have to chase after literally you have to run after it because justice is never achievable justice is not an end result it's a process the quest for justice the quest for liberty never stays won the quest for truth never stays won so I am yes I admitted here in public in front of the Arne kodesh I am a moral relativist I do not see absolutes I can imagine a murder being justified I put to my students once in first-year college where does your morality come from the following hypothetical you're a underground freedom fighter against the Nazis in Germany they're killing millions of Jews you know the reports you see it and one of your people suggests that the only way to stop the killing is because Germans love their children is to blow up a kindergarten with 30 innocent German children and to make it clear to the Germans that you will repeat this over and over and over again could you imagine yourself can you bring yourself to imagine that you could kill an innocent child in order to save hundreds of thousands or millions of lives dusty asking pose that question in the brothers karamazov it's a question worth posing I don't think the answer comes from heaven I think when I work it through perhaps I think it would be morally correct I don't think I could do it myself but I don't think that any answers are foreclosed by a kind of morality from on high and there really is that's a fundamental difference between us whether we think morality is external comes from somewhere else and we have to search for it and find it or whether we have to struggle with it invent it reconsider it reinvent it challenge it at every turn so our views are different it's interesting because I think there are two things that we are as Jews to pursue one of them is justice and what you're teaching I think is thoughtful we never really achieve it in a way and the other is peace I think those are the two mitts bullet road Dave cello right we are required to pursue let me go then from the personal Jewish to the more general I want ask you about trends in the Jewish community what trends do you see they give you cause for optimism and what trends you've seen that you wish community to give you cause for pessimism Tennessee I I see very few trends that are causes for optimism non Orthodox Judaism is failing with some exceptions this synagogue is one of them and I have no reason to say that I don't work for the synagogue I think that it's an extraordinary wonderful place I have been affiliated with it for 25 years and but I think that it's it's a difficult and I'll tell you exactly why the reform and conservative judaism again I'm not Orthodox no I I don't I I this is what this is the synagogue I attend and it's reformed so I I don't have a Orthodox ax to grind but what has happened too much of reform and conservative judaism is that the most dynamic religion of the last hundred years has influenced them much more than judaism has opinion and that dynamic religion and I know that this was is very controversial I don't mean to be controversial I but it comes as natural as walking for me but it's leftism and I don't say this is an insult I say this is a descriptive fact that has happened in Christianity to mainstream Protestantism has been captive captured by leftism social justice as it is understood by the left environmentalism as it is understood by the left morality as it is understood by the left every given issue so you will have rabbis from pulpits on the High Holy Days in conservative and reform synagogues talk about global warming I conduct my own services each year for 400 people and it is a rule that we never taught politics I don't nor do I allow during the Yom Kippur two-hour session of question and answer any question on politics you've come to a synagogue it's neutral territory doesn't mean we don't have moral issues of course we do but I want everyone every Jew whether right or left to bill comfortable but if global what environmentalism is today's avodah Zarah it is today's idol worship Mother Earth is now a goddess and so this is taken over much of conservative and much of reformed Judaism and therefore I mean and you cannot survive like that if you want environmentalism then then join the Sierra Club what do you need your temple for and that's what has happened it's this is it's the Sierra Club with Ebru and by the way that's what's happened in mainstream product is omits Sierra Club with a cross and that's why Protestant churches outside of evangelicals are closing down Presbyterian methodist of what what is the OS it is Presbyterian sure that the whole main them whole main service Capelli in the whole mainstream crowd and then there's orthodoxy which and I told the Orthodox this at least to their credit they invite me to criticize them that does not happen in in reform and conservative it's it's sealed hermetically sealed like Brandeis University to to non left-wing ideas so I'll just then and so what's your alternative orthodoxy where there is more and more Halawa that this it's like it there's actually a website you would love this coma of the month website if you want the achieve it or what a coma is you know where your strict observance of law so I and one final thing vast numbers of American Jews don't give a hoot about Israel I mean that's mind-boggling I never would have predicted that there's a Jewish state there are two hundred and twenty states on on earth one Jewish one the size of New Jersey and you don't give a damn if it survives or not and that is that is what is increasingly the case with young American Jews well I share some of your pessimism I share some of your pessimism and I'm concerned obviously but as you are but I see a different dynamic at work I mean it's so easy to preserve of Judaism I'll give you you know the three the three steps if you want to make sure that your children and grandchildren are Jewish and that Judaism continues very simple just move to borrow par grow a beard and pace put on a long coat don't teach your children English don't let them have access to the computers the latest comer by the way is a prohibition on iPhones and let them ignorant Lee continue in the ways of the 16th and 17th century Christianity has a term for it it's called be a fool for Christ and and and Judaism has a variation on that and the question is are we prepared to sacrifice our intellectual quest our moral search our desire to do good in the interest simply of perpetuating Judaism for me the answer to that question is no I think that Judaism has to confront and encounter our young people who care deeply about the environment who care deeply about gay rights I also conduct a Yom Kippur and Russian shadow service on our home on Martha's Vineyard and we also conduct one yes yes and I urge you if one a beautiful one I might add and I urge you if you're in Los Angeles to go to this one see I'm not competing I'm on Martha's Vineyard I don't attract any of work of your clients away but but we talk about we talk about all the issues that deeply concern us and affect us and what we're searching for is a Judaism that's relevant to our concerns it's not easy to come by and as to the Israel part of it you're 100 percent right and but I think for reasons that are different from what I think look when you and I grew up it was so easy to be supportive of Israel we were so proud when Israel took on all the surrounding armies in 1967 and defeated them in six days every Jew pumped their chest and said I want to be identified with Israel every Norwegian whose grandfather collaborated with the Nazis moved to Israel and worked on a kibbutz it was a fantastic time it was so easy to support Israel and now here you and I completely agree the hard left for immoral reasons for bigoted reasons for horrible reasons has turned against Israel okay you want to discuss I wanted to ask you pertinent to what you're saying right then how central is it the Jews believe that they have a divine mission I mean that we have that we were chosen for a purpose and that that purpose is to bring people to ethics and to God well I think there's another way of framing that I would not say we've been chosen for a divine purpose I wish God would just leave us alone for a while and stop choosing us for things that have happened to us over over the years I think we have the right to decide that we have a very important purpose to serve that's a decision that we have to make if Israel wants to be a light unto the world that's a political decision a political religious decision but it's a decision that Israeli should make if Israel wants to be a normalized country the way Herzl who is a totally secular Jew wanted israel to be that's a decision that democracy has the right to make israel is facing very challenging times the point i wanted to make is my generation was proud of israel tragically my children and grandchildren particularly my grandchildren's generation i have two grandchildren both of whom one is a freshman and one is a junior at harvard and I'm not talking about them but their classmates are embarrassed about being supportive of Israel one of them one a student came over from Harvard and said that he never admits he's a Zionist because he won't be accepted in social clubs he won't get dates it's not popular today it's not popular dinner parties in Los Angeles it used to be the thing to do the thing to say I went to Israel today you have to apologize you have to explain why you went to Israel it's much harder for young people to be supportive of Israel today than it was I don't blame the young people I think it's a combination of factors some of which I will say right here is the fault of Israel some of it is the fault of Israel Israel has not handled its ability to attract young people as well as it could have it hasn't handled the occupation and the settlement policy in a way that has been conducive to gaining support among young people that's a decision the Israeli government is entitled to make maybe it's even the right decision in terms of the threats it faces externally but these are decisions that come with a cost sixty-seven came with no public relations cost it came with the cost in human lives it came with some tragic consequences but it was a win-win for purposes of doing what they had to do to preserve their security and also being willing to be a light unto the world today it's much more complicated it's much more difficult it's much more nuanced am i optimistic or pessimistic I have a mixed feeling I'm optimistic I think the nature of Jewish life in America will change dramatically by the end of the century there will be many more people of Jewish backgrounds and Jewish heritage of a divided parental of background religiously there will be a lot more clarity and pathetic Jews the percentage is going up dramatically whereas reform of conservative Jews numbers are going down and we have to be prepared Denis you congratulate the rabbi for having a wonderful service that's the answer there is a marketplace out there we have to do a better job in attracting young Jews to Judaism and we have to use every means at our disposal and it includes modernization and change and adaptability and making Judaism relevant to contemporary feelings and contemporary ideology that means a compromise and you're right nothing is easy nothing is purer there's no simple path it's a way I hate the term halaqa because how I saw is one of the few Hebrew words that's in the singular and particula sztyc holocron means low road there is no singular road in Judaism and no singular road to Judaism there are multiple roads and we have to chase down them and do whatever we can to preserve what we can while keeping our own integrity our own sense of self this is a real challenge I have some thoughts on the embarrassment of your grandchildren to say at Harvard that they're pro-israel not my grandchildren but their friends their friends I'm sorry you're the Friends of your grandchildren their peers ah the I'll bet there isn't a single student at Harvard who would be embarrassed to say he's pro-palestinian and though I have you that that is not a statement about Israel it is a statement about Harvard our universities Dennis how are you how it is going to continue to exist you have to deal with it you're right but while I am dealing with it the Taurus long-term universal turned out the leaders of the world well that's well then we're screwed no that's yes you're screwed oh no you I'm not yes you are you wait I'm going up the challenge I'm well I'm taking up the challenge - I devote my life to making the price for these values and indeed for Judaism among others and I do it in the eighties that's right and God bless you for excuse me whoever bless you whoever whoever I don't know who should bless you I'll take your blessing all right Thank You Magda hello rabbi's blessing I bless you I just want to know how you got your kids into Harvard I had nothing to do it offended me but let me actually it's a good segue into into political life in general the leading one of the America's leading liberals one of America's leading conservatives rather than go through a litany of areas where you might agree or disagree death penalty abortion etc let me ask you just to get to the more fundamental values which underlie your thinking Dennis why are you a conservative and Alan why you're a liberal no that's a great say it's great the conservative literally needs to conserve to preserve I want to preserve the judeo-christian value system and the American value system and that's why I wrote my last book which is available I'm not getting rich on it I'm not I just wrote my heart out because these values are being lost even conservatives forgot how to make the case for conservatism and then the university turns them around and then parents don't know what happened to their children's values I believe in the American Trinity as I define it the three values on every American coin and every American bank note Liberty and God We Trust applause - no it's the only country in the world with that with that Trinity so to speak Liberty means among other things which America has been the freest country in the world and there is a reason because America has had the smallest government in the world the left wishes to expand the state the state is never too big for the left in Europe or Venezuela or indeed what they are trying to do in the United States which is succeeding incidentally the United States government is going from a government for example that had a about 30 percent of the American people 30 percent of the budget of the US was entitlements in 1960 it is approaching 75 percent this was this was unforeseen by the founders of this country who wanted charities and families and churches to take care of our fellow Americans just as we Jews did we were poor when we came to America but we started free loan societies and we started sudoku societies and we took care of one another we say in the Rakata Mazzone in the grace after meals every whatever you say we did not alter behavior lowly they held on below leave a lot some came the other caja Malaya suka please God never ever let us become dependent on human beings but only on you it is if we make that prayer and then do support the idea of people being dependent on the state it gives you an idea of the rift between Jews and Judaism I am a conservative because of those values and you can't have free society with small government if you don't have a strong God that's what the founders understood you will either have people who feel that this I have to be good because the state I am accountable to or because God and my religion I am accountable to and then finally a pluribus unum from a one from anyone which of course originally meant from many colonies one state one union but now what became to mean from many backgrounds one people and today the left is created the hyphenated American a new idea the opposite of the melting pot which is a tragedy in American life you now everybody is something you have to identify where a woman could win for Senate in Massachusetts saying I'm 1/32 Cherokee I mean it is sick it's sick there's blood based thinking that that goes for progressive and turns Harvard University on look we have the first tenured American Native American professor I mean this is this is what this is what is done so I want small government big the bigger the government the smaller the citizen I want people to feel responsible to a God for their behavior and finally the biggest difference in 31 years of radio I have learned the biggest differences do you believe people are basically good the left believes as a general rule people are basically good the right as a general rule believes that people are not basically good and every single outlook flows inevitably from that belief if you believe people are not basically good you know that they need strong moral upbringing not self esteem self control if you believe that we're basically good then you want to give children's self control self esteem and you don't give them self control there are innumerable consequences from those beliefs that's why I have a conservative [Applause] I'm not a conservative because I don't stereotype and make those kinds of generalizations at all human beings contain both the Yates rrraaahhh Yates are hatov good instincts and bad instincts some have many more bad instincts than good instincts some of many more good instincts than bad instincts I don't want to generalize I don't want to generalize about the left I consider myself a person to the left but my greatest enemies in the world are the hard left I hate the hard left much more than I'm opposed to conservatives I'm trying to struggle for a middle ground for a center position you know Jews have always suffered from extremes they've always been between the black and the red they've suffered from extreme right-wing and extreme left-wing ideologies Jews tend to thrive in governments that are relatively centrist and eclectic and non-ideological you know you quote from the beer Fatima's own the blessing after the meal let me quote from the very fact of Mazzone to give you an idea of why I am a liberal one of the most invidious prayers I refuse to say it is na hai et vous gamma zircon table or ET avec nezha bazaar on the Bacchus Luca I was young and then I grew old and I never saw a righteous person suffering or his children wanting for bread it is the worst form of the naturalistic fallacy it basically is the Calvinist view that people deserve what they get and if people are poor they must be unrighteous and if people are wealthy it must be righteous and God rewards the righteous and punishes the unrighteous nonsense perverse horrible I don't believe in that and that's why I'm a liberal I'm a liberal because I think we make our own destiny I think that we have to struggle to find goodness and to do good things I'm not an advocate of big government I'm an advocate of having the government do what's best for human beings I do want everybody to have health care everybody in the United States have access to free healthcare I would love to see my education in college replicated I could not have gone to college if there hadn't been the New York City colleges which gave free education to everybody I want to see free quality excellent education that doesn't happen without some input from government I want to see a balance I want to make sure Liberty is preserved freedom is preserved I don't want the government to have the power to snoop into my bedroom or to listen to my phone calls on the other hand I want the government to protect my security and protect me against terrorism there is no simple solution I think the difference essentially between and I don't want to say anything that is anyway deemed to be insulting but I really think that you often see problems in relatively simple black and white terms and that you think you can solve them by being against big government by being against big budgets by invoking the mantras of conservatism against liberalism I don't think there are simple answers I am struggling I don't know whether I'm going to remain a liberal all my life I told you before I was thinking of writing a book why I left the left but couldn't join the right I'm a liberal I'm a liberal because I believe in a woman's right to choose abortion I'm a liberal because I believe that gays have exactly the same right as heterosexuals and I'm no better than anybody based on my accident of sexual preference I believe in a strong wall of separation between church and state so that if people want to look to God for the answers to questions they can but that the state exercises no preference as to whether you believe or don't believe or what you believe in and don't believe in I strongly support efforts to try to boost the rights of minorities who have suffered greatly as the result of governmental actions in the past and so these are all my liberal credentials I strongly oppose the death penalty just today was it in Oklahoma they tried to execute two people on death row and they botched both executions and them stayed alive the other died of a heart attack after being given a drug that didn't work I'm appalled by the death penalty in America I don't want to see our country join Iran as the only two countries in the world today that execute large numbers of people I want to make sure we understand that it is not a capital crime in America to kill a black man it's only a capital crime in America to kill a white man if you look at the data you don't get the death penalty when you've killed somebody who's black you do get the death penalty when you kill somebody who's white I want to change all that I want to improve yes it's become a cliche tikkun olam but I do want to see the world repaired it must become better for our children and grandchildren and yes the environment has to be preserved the total also speaks about when you capture a town you don't cut down the trees you make sure that what you do is preserve and keep the world better for your children and grandchildren then you came into it so I'm proud to be a liberal [Applause] obviously we could we could debate the seat because we both spoke in general terms you know half of what he said I agree with you know I ha ha ha I don't want everybody to have health care I mean it's it's there's a conservative without big government yes cap happen you have to want a well some government we've got weak first of all we did have health care for all Americans we didn't have health insurance for all Americans and that's a sort of liberal sleight of hand that is inappropriate but I have I am curious and can I can I get that I know that there lot will hear more of them if we don't applaud after each side they speak I that's one of the nice things I know you have passions here but given that we can make a big applause at the end of the evening together for me I'll join that the I'm just curious what is your position on the XL pipeline you know it's not it's not something that I have a clear position on I would love to hear both sides even in fear of wait a minute it's an empirical issue for me I want to know what it does for employment what it does to make the United States less oil dependent what it does to the environment I don't start a priori by watching Fox and having Fox or God tell me which way I should come down on every issue I think for myself I have not thought through the pipeline issue my inclination is to favor it because I want to see us become oil independent but I could be persuaded by arguments by environmentalists I want to make a decision about it based on the balance of data and how the data serves the values that I think are important fine well okay but not having a position I can't argue with you if you haven't thought it through I respect that fact no I do I do I'm sure there are positions that I haven't thought through but I can't think of any offhand but I that was a joke that was a joke I just wanted but I am a talk-show host for a living remember on I'm paid to have opinions but the okay the the the State Department has reviewed this now thoroughly and said it is a good thing for us to go forward that Canada has begged us to our greatest ally I'm not trying to persuade you I'm just trying to say it's not enough to say you care about the environment it's the positions every normal human cares about the environment the question is each of the positions every normal human knows that the government is necessary for certain things the question is how much government so that's where we differ we don't differ on certain basic principles I'm not an anarchist and you're a lot of totalitarian so obviously there's somewhere in the middle on tax rates the you know I'm sure do you believe that there is a Laffer curve that there is a point after which the government actually gets less revenue when it taxes spin and parity with you I'll listen to accommodate and I'll make up my mind okay well the Imperial moral issue the Imperial to me is not a location this week this week gun control law relation okay well I will go to that in a moment I I wish the Jews of Europe had guns okay I wish the Nazis it directed yeah well alright but but yours is utopian and mine is realistic yeah realistic to have a couple of thousand Jews with 22s find not a couple thousand no not a couple of thousand a couple of million okay if there was widespread gun ownership the Holocaust would have been rendered far less possible and if there is a widespread gun ownership now in America what are the implications for the safety of our children actually in places where where people know how to use them the implications are positive you know I think an array I've seen the NRA propaganda I okay well listen to Fox 2 you get that with of you know but I don't agree with it do you think the Republicans and Democrats have a differing you of the country the goals of the country do you have in other words other differ and you talking about different means to the same ends or different ends I think there are different ends look that's very important I think we because then the means my secondary tell me what the ends are well I think what's the vision for the country well I am you think it's different quoting and vice versa Janice I think dennis wants a country in which everybody or as many people as possible believe in God I couldn't care less if you want to believe in God believe in God if you want to believe in a human faith believe in that if you want to believe in astrology believe in Astra none of my business what you believe is Thomas Jefferson said persons view of God is about as irrelevant as a person's view of geometry so I mean that's a big difference do you think that that in god we trust' is part of what the goal of a country is my answer is is no Dennis's answer seems to be s that's a very big difference and whom should we trust nobody make your own make your own make your own future make your own life work hard to figure out who which individuals you trust which candidates you trust Trust is overrated I think skepticism is underrated and for me the essence of life is to question everything to question everybody by the way I've been questioned by the best people in the world and you are the greatest questioner you always ask the best questions and and you bring out the scepticism in me so thank you that difference is that that is that is a significant difference that's true I this country was not founded to be secular this country was founded III whatever your position today I yours or anyone's I honor if I respect it and so on but I but there it's not honest to deny that it was founded to be a god face compilation I deny that I'm a bastard that means then even to you in six yeah okay well I'll prove to you in twenty second okay okay you get your twenty seconds okay okay the the Declaration of Independence speaks of God based inalienable rights and then the called God no inalienable absolutely there are no inalienable rights the constant of the Declaration of Independence was a propaganda document we were fighting we were fighting in the illegal war we needed to have a justification we couldn't justify it by law remember what happened when we went to Philadelphia wrote the Constitution not a single mention of God in the Constitution the godless Constitution why because revolutionaries need to invoke God they don't have the law once you've won the revolution you don't want God because then that empowers the people to take up their guns and revolt against you you want law and order read the preamble to the Constitution it doesn't talk about God or in a legal rights it talks about the rights that we have to implement through Democratic means the founders of America were almost all deists deists were the current what if you translate it to the current version they would be agnostics or at best Unitarians John Adams once said in the letter to Jefferson by the time my children are buried every American will be buried in a Unitarian Cemetery the George Washington was not a churchgoer Thomas Jefferson thought the Bible was rubbish and in fact to use the word dung which is a really nasty word to describe the Bible he hated the new testament didn't much like the Old Testament love Jesus as a philosopher but to say that America was not founded as a secular state Thomas Jefferson when he built the first secular university made sure that the library was higher than the church because he wanted to make sure that knowledge superseded superstition in his last letter before he died on the twenty on the fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration just before July fourth he talked about the decorations goal is to free Americans from the monkish ignorance of Europe meaning the religious domination of Europe so I mean you can you can make the argument that America was intended to be founded as a religious Society it was intended to be the first Society in the history of the world with complete religious freedom complete separation of church and state a high wall separation between church and state and I think we have become the most religious country in the world in the Western world precisely because we have separation of church and state precisely because the government can tell us what to believe or what not to believe Americans have chosen to be religious whereas in Europe which does not have a history of separation between church and state nobody goes to church because bringing the state and the church together is antagonistic it's bad for the state it's bad for religion and it's bad for individual liberties okay four it's not true every founder Franklin Madison Jefferson included Jefferson and Franklin wanted the seal they designed it the seal of the United States designed by Franklin and Jefferson was the Jews leaving Egypt this was a profoundly Judea based country profoundly God centered he did not think their Bible was rubbish Jefferson he thought the he thought the miracles were rubbish and he decided to remove miracles from the Bible what's the Bible none of their goals the Bible without miracles no morality no but not a lot to don't know it's it's a monotheistic book there were no atheists among the founders of the United hadn't been invented or he isn't Veon of the other would word that Jefferson's books were banned from the Philadelphia library on the ground that he was an irreligious deal do you remember was somebody who said God may have created the world but like the watch clock maker he left it alone he is not intervening God he does not care about human beings read the letters that Jefferson wrote rihanna's okay and his wife Anne read Benjamin Franklin who was considered a deist read his autobiography Benjamin Franklin and I have no separation whatsoever in our faith so much so that he believed that the essential doctrine of an afterlife that is not deism as you just defined it Jefferson failed he hoped they okay afterlife what every non operating Franklin but leave their health all right look you have a choice my fellow Americans and my fellow Jews you have a choice would you like to be secular like Europe or religious like America which do you think will produce more good for America and more good for the world religion like would you like to be a skeptic like me or would you like to be somebody who believes that God has ordained and told him what to do that's a better progress fair then putting that right I'm leaning off you're a personal American oh that's no that's a realistic to write Yoruba secular and America's religious which one do you want and yes that is a train Iran do you want a tea one or one who want to be like Iran Olivia okay where you want to be like Israel secular okay I mean that's that's right I mean let me ask you so what do you want Israel or Iran hi okay there do you uh let me let me take us a little away from that and now you got what you paid for do I always like to ask guests this question do you believe in an American exceptionalism and if so how would you define it I think America has had an exceptional history I don't think God gave us manifest destiny or made us exceptional any more than I believe that the Jews are chosen over other cultures or other religions I think we make our own destiny America has been the greatest country in the history of the world there was nobody more patriotic than my grandmother who escaped the pogroms and came to America and on July 4th made me and my brother go to the Statue of Liberty and not only seeing the first anthem of the national anthem but the second verse of the national anthem there was nobody more patriotic than my grandmother you could never say anything bad about America America has been an exceptional country the concept of American exceptionalism seems to bestow on us a privilege not to work hard to maintain that status I don't believe in that no I think we have to work hard to maintain our status as the greatest country in the greatest example in the history of the world I would like Israel also I think no country in the history of the world has ever done more for Humanity in 66 years than the state of Israel nobody has contributed more to the health of the world to the environmental concerns of the world it's an extraordinary exceptional country considering particularly the adversity it's faced and I'm very very proud to be both an American and a Zionist I just want to add this man had just made one of the most beautiful statements about the extraordinary nature of Israel's moral achievement just told us 25 minutes ago how Israel just doesn't appeal to young people or anymore it's around it's full and it no today you did you you guys that it's partly partly is remanded that's right right it's no the only one of them of the greatest moral donor to humanity has different six layers it's it's partial fault that Harvard students have contempt for that's right not Harvard School that's right well well first of all as though there's no such thing as there's no such thing as Harvard Harvard's fault Harvard consists of those vows in fact he really is a skeptic but there's no such thing as Harvard as a concept or to have a dialogue there are there are 50,000 is there an Alan Dershowitz yet okay I am one of the 50,000 people at Harvard Harvard is Ruth Weiss Narborough de leur is people of the extreme right people of the extreme right yes Ruth Weiss is somebody I think you're right van Gogh one you're hard right you can see the professor of Yiddish I just want to make that thing I can the names won't mean anything to you but I can name you and a hundred for let me just finish this point so so yes we have a struggle Israel is the greatest country morally in 62 years of any country in the world and it's very imperfect and it's made some very serious mistakes and those mistakes have unfortunately been exaggerated by its enemies who have done a remarkably effective job in focusing on the imperfections and not focusing on the perfections I devote my life to trying to right those wrongs and trying to educate my students not in the classroom I will never use the classroom no matter what to try to propagandize students the lectern the podium is a sacred place in the secular sense sacred place where I have an obligation not to try to impose my views if I want to impose my views I do a talk show if I want to impose my views and that's the right place I commend Dennis and I don't think if Dennis taught a class at Brooklyn College which he did he would bring his ideology into the classroom to a captive audience when I try by the way I would have welcomed being audio or video recorded in every one of my classes but the University of Wisconsin faculty just voted last week that to ban all recordings of professor's even though it's a publicly funded University because they're so afraid I have about what the public will hear if they hear the propaganda I have the tippet and I have told my students to engage in civil disobedience to disobey that rule and to tape-record class good I believe that professors have no right of privacy in relation to exactly right each harness is either in a public or private University all my classes are on the record I tell my students record away whatever you want just make sure when you quote it it's in context but you have the right to tell anybody what I've said in class now there are going to be certain classes where I'll tell the students this is off the record if we're dealing for example with the crime of rape and I want to encourage students to talk honestly about maybe experiences they've had I tell them that we're turning off the cameras for turning off the video the turning off the tape recorders but I agree with you and I agree with you about your diagnosis I think you over generalize about universities they're more complex places but I think that most American universities have a strong left would tilt many of them have very very very hard left professors there are a lot of very good conservatives on university campuses one of the great thrills about teaching for Harvard in 50 years is I've had some of the most extraordinary students from the right people criticized me at Harvard when I praised Ted Cruz for his extraordinary intellectual abilities that he showed in my classroom he is a brilliant brilliant man and when brilliant conservatives speak out in class it helps for diverse class and it's an excellent way of making sure old views of presented so I don't think you can generalize about universities we have a wide range of views presented and the problem is not Harvard it's every University in the country in fact Harvard is a much much better place when it comes to pro-israel advocacy when it comes to presenting liberal and conservative views partly because we have a diversity of Harvard professors representing a variety of views on Israel and we're all prepared to speak in public forums in defense of Israel let me move on before we get to Israel specifically to the issue that both of you have spent a good deal of your lives dealing with anti-semitism and fighting Denis you wrote a book why the Jews you co-wrote - why would you is the reason for anti some it's a great book by the way great actually would you share the thesis of that book and Alan I'd love to get your your reaction to Dennis well it well it's hard but I uh because of the time factor but essentially I leave that there are there are ultimately if you will transcend reasons for Jew hatred Jew hatred is not rational see every group has been hated by every other group the Irish hate the English thing will shake the Irish T'Pol's eight the Germans the Russians eight the poles everybody hates their neighbor everybody likes the one two neighbors over and so I got that from Brzezinski at the Russian Institute but that that that's separate Jew hatred is the only to use a golden Hagen's term extermination estate really it's you they want us dead they don't want us hurt or or just persecuted they want us dead so you have to ask why what mine is the intensity such concentration on such a small people and ultimately earnest London Hagen and you wrote one of the most powerful books the Jews brought an invisible judging God into the world and have never been forgiven for it and we brought the 10 commandments into the world we are also hated interestingly very deeply because of chosen is and I want to explain this because this is whether you believe were chosen or not it is a factor in Jew hatred and I here is what is so interesting when I say that nobody laughs they may say well we're not chosen or people shouldn't hate us for that that's fine but but here is the amazing thing every group in the world thinks it's chosen the Japanese have a Sun on their flag s UN right because it's the Land of the Rising Sun they believe they get the Sun before the rest of humanity none of you believe that do any of you hate the Japanese for believing it does anybody in history ever hate China for believing it is the center of the world China in Chinese means Middle Kingdom center of the world everybody has believed it but this the smallest people on earth believes their chosen and were unbelievably hated for it and the reason is they believe it or at least they fear it may be true I am a believer in Jewish chosen s I will go further if I did not believe we were chosen I would not have raised the Jewish children it isn't worth it if God is not behind Jewish history and the Jewish people I don't mean supportive but behind our existence why continue this project I don't care about to filter fish I do not care about LOX I do not care about Yiddish I do not I do not care about Jewish ethnicity I care about Judaism which contains a people of component but I'm not epic that's why I'm in love with converts so I am in love with black Jews and Persian Jews and European Jews in every other type we are hated because of our unique vocation in his that's my belief I don't believe a word of that I don't believe that monotheism that the Bible has anything to do today with Jew hatred I think it did at one point in time I think Matthews a gospel is an abomination the attempt by Matthew to cast blame on all the Jews and their children for the murder that was done there was John Matthew okay Matthew Matthew 23 any of you have a google you can google it and see who's right in any event Tom ate the king washed his hands of it and and and you know I don't even want to research the recited verses so obnoxious and so theological anti-semitism played a very important role in the beginnings and history of the Catholic Church but it doesn't explain why post Christian Europe has turned so seriously against Jews and against Jewish values and against the nation-state of the Jewish people I think there are a lot of complex reasons the firt I think it differs in different parts of the world I think it's different in Arab countries than it is in northern Europe I wrote an article recently pointing out that people forget the Holocaust unlike I don't believe gold Hoggins thesis that the Germans were unique the Holocaust was instituted by the Germans which could never have been carried out without the complicity of the French the Dutch the Norwegians the many other many other groups and I'm talking about only Western Europe now obviously in Eastern Europe they didn't even need the Germans as soon as the the Russians left the Soviets left they did the killings on their own so the Holocaust was a European phenomenon and it's the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people who are extermination as Jews who hate Israel today for me the remarkable question is not why there is European anti-semitism but why for 40 years after the Holocaust it stopped and I think we now it was a temporary cessation of a long term a phenomenon arm Herzl was right tragically there is no future for Jews in Europe that is a horrible horrible tragedy the Jewish future is in the United States and in Israel and in Canada and in maybe half a dozen other countries it used to be South Africa no longer perhaps today in Australia and a few other places the tragedy is there is no Jewish future in France I suspect there is no and here I disagree with the chief rabbis the 2fast chief rabbis of England I think the Jewish future in England is very very questionable and I don't think this has anything to do with the mystery of monotheism or anything of that kind I think a lot of it is jealousy Jews have had made extraordinary successes in every area of the world where dusit lived they have been dominant in business in medicine while off then one symptom were athleticism in America that's I was just going to get to that and the United States has been an extraordinary exception for that European phenomenon and I think it is in large part because of the experiences that America had and remember too that the most Hospital part of America for many many decades was not New York and Philadelphia it was the south and the complex history of Jews in the south of written extensively by my cousin Robert roses who wrote a book called Jewish Confederates explaining why so many Jews believed so strongly in the Confederacy didn't believe in slavery they didn't believe in segregation they didn't believe in any of that the South had been wonderful up to the Jews the first major political figures of who would Jewish came from the south Judah Benjamin the first United States senator from Florida was Jewish at a time when there was rampant anti-semitism in the United States anti-semitism was not absent in the United States I could just tell you one little anecdote I told you how bad I was as a high school student so I can tell you how good I was as a law student without too much bragging so I was like the the first draft choice I was first in my class I was editor-in-chief of the Yale Law Journal and I had a Supreme Court clerkship in my pocket and I applied to 32 Wall Street firms and was turned down by every single one of the 32 Wall Street firms almost none of them even gave me an interview and the ones that gave me interviews treated me horribly and and that was the reality of America 1961 those of you who were as old as I am remember you couldn't live in various neighborhoods in every city you couldn't go into businesses you couldn't get into medical schools we had top-down anti-semitism in the United States you read some of the letters from Eleanor Roosevelt who became a good friend of the Jews they're filled with anti-semitic smears you read lettuce Adlai Stevenson they're filled with that kind of stuff it was a part and parcel of America remember America was the home of Henry Ford America was the home of Lindbergh America was the home father Coughlin America was the home of rampant anti-semitism for many years and we battled it and we fought against it and you know the best answer to anti-semitism is Jews just like the best answer to homophobia is gays the best answer to racism is blacks when you meet people you understand the nuance there are good and bad among them and we have managed in America to be successful to be accomplished without creating the kind of backlash of anti-semitism but I mean the history of anti-semitism is absolutely remarkable now you come to Israel obviously opposition to Zionism is not anti-semitism the first strong opposition design ISM can from the reform movement came from American Council on Judaism came from a lot of liberal Jews who hated the concept of Zionism and and so I'm not suggesting that being an anti Zionist is to be an anti-semite but when you look at the nature of the kind of demonization of Israel the singling out of Israel the kind of language that's used against Israel what my friend Phyllis Chester calls the errata sighs hatred of Israel it's almost orgasmic the way people hate Israel I'll never forget walking down the steps of Phanuel hall having received an award and a group of anti-israel people started the chance against me saying Dershowitz and gurbles just the same the only difference is the name just because I supported Israel and then they became violent and I had to be rescued by the police that happened to me at the University of California it happened to be University of Massachusetts happened to me at the University of Toronto the violent feelings that people have toward me because of my Zionism and remember I'm a critical pro-israel person I don't like the occupation I don't like the settlement I'm not crazy about many of the government policies of Israel and yet I'm regarded as a zyo fascist that kind of hatred can't be explained on rational grounds that kind of statement could only be explained by the fact that we're talking about the nation-state of the Jewish people if a nation-state not of the Jewish people behaved exactly the way Israel did it would be criticized it would be condemned but not with the kind of or rhetorical and emotional violence that we feel so I think you cannot explain the detail is rayul without looking at Jew hatred and the depth of anti-semitism that has taken its old wine in new bottles but it's just as variant as it ever was 10 yeah try to be brief here the of course there was anti-semitism in the United States but I just want you to understand how utterly different it is from the anti-semitism and you agree obviously because nobody killed you at the 31 law firms they didn't interview you it's a big difference between not being interviewed and murdered so I and that's popular anti-semitism it is not it's not steeped in the culture the today the Jew is most welcomed and most least welcomed in two different places and that should be instructive to Jews Bible based Christians are our best friends the secular university is our least good friend if you say you say an hour you mean Israel well Jews generally you're dead wrong about milk no no diversity is perfectly open to jr. if you're anti-israel yeah okay Israel I accept that appetite self-hating Jews are welcome at the University Jewish genomes Chomsky is that's rap you'll hear it right under your entirely well that's right but but please I hope that I hope that that at least pause it causes many of you to start wondering gee why is it that the people we fear the Christians are our best friends and the people we idolize universities are our our the home at least of our deepest enemies the I mean he would not have to he wouldn't need police guard if he went to a evangelical church anywhere in the United States except if I talked about abortion right okay right now you wouldn't even higher mental right you would not then either you would not say neither okay and you know that that no you're right okay they wouldn't kill me no they wouldn't need a guard you wouldn't need a guard okay second opposition to Zionism before Israel was founded was not anti-semitism opposition to Zionism after Israel is founded is anti-semitism and I'll tell you why and I think I think I think you would agree it's not anti-semitism in the racial sense but if I were to say I really am not anti Italian but I don't think Italy has a right to exist you wouldn't say I'm not anti Italian you would say that's ludicrous so you love Verdi operas and you love Italian cuisine it doesn't matter if you don't think Italy has a right to exist we Italians consider you anti-italian yeah but there's anti-zionism means Israel doesn't have a right to exist no I think there are some people who take the position that I don't of course and I find position appalling but there are some people who take the position there were to be a secular binational state there are even some Israelis who take that position I don't think you can make the exact one-to-one equation okay between anti-zionism and anti-semitism I think that most anti Zionists are anti-zionists because of a deep-seated hatred to things Jewish okay I think that's Columbus largest some of the some of the most effective unfortunately anti-zionists in the world are Jews including Jews who don't regard themselves as self-hating you take a person like a rabbi Lerner he believes himself to be a good Jew he's a but he's a virulent anti-israel fanatic as far as I'm concerned or you take some of the young people from J Street who have been misled into thinking somehow that they belong to an organization that's pro-israel when the organization is never to my knowledge taken any position that's supportive of Israel appraises Israel or does anything but criticize Israel because they've even now commended Secretary of State Kerry for calling Israel potentially in apartheid country even though Kerry has apologized for it J Street is defending him because he they think he may be he may be right so I you know I think it's again too simplistic to associate all opposition to Israel with anti-semitism I think a lot of it is motivated by conscious or unconscious negative feelings toward Jewish values Jewish identity and the nation-state of the Jewish people which is called anti-semitism in short you have simple words and I'll describe everything and I know I have more complicated to describe the same thing I don't know I don't buy this critique okay I call let's call a spade a spade you're against Jewish values the Jewish nation and the survival of the Jewish state well you're not necessarily an anti-semite I agree I agree they may really enjoy non-jewish Jews and maybe Marik talking about people if you do everything to hurt my people what's the difference if you are theoretically an anti-semite or really a man I don't think you can I don't think you can fall I don't think you can call bird you know who is a very big critic of Israel within Israel an anti-semite I don't think you can call Olmert an anti-semite even though he had a rant I'm sorry amidst well no no what he has said he has used the term and others like it have used the term that Israel might be moving toward apartheid there are no way their rule that's right I'm preparing both very a fool right waiting around you're changing your debate forum was only an ad i scientist that's right not the critic I judge is the word apart all right up first of all I think anybody who uses the term apartheid against Israel is worse than an anti Zionist I think you can be an anti Zionist okay and oppose the concept of any nation safe by the way I think you become an anti-semite if you oppose Zionism but agree with you on this but support every other national liberation movement support the right of the Palestinians to have a Muslim state but don't support the right of critical area almost yes but you know I think that's absolutely correct but there are many academics who don't support the right of any country to base itself on a religious or national life but they're not working against Pakistan's existence they're working against Israel's so let me ask you senator Kerry senator Secretary of State Kerry came back trying to broker a deal there's been since then Fatah Hamas essentially have a chief so sort of a pact towards it governmental pact between the two of them let me ask you to compete you to complete the sentence there will be a safe and secure peace for Israel and those and the countries which surround her when when the Palestinians acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state words that they cannot utter when Hamas is not part of the government since its Charter is to destroy Israel when polls among Palestinians no longer consider those who blow up Jews to be the best Palestinians who ever lived that's when there will be peace well I don't I know because I forgive me what forgive me out because I do believe and I am among them I am for territorial compromise for real peace okay on III and I'm on the right and the Israeli right overwhelmingly is - as they revealed at Camp David in 2000 but the that was blown up in Bill Clinton's words blown up by Arafat I don't disagree with anything but one concept and it may be a minor one it's a major one for me I don't like the term Jewish state I always use the term Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people that is that the historical concept and it was founded by people who wanted to establish a nation state for the Jewish people Jewish safe can easily be misinterpreted to mean the state itself is Jewish in terms of Jewish a libation state of the Jewish people is great the bad news is that the Palestinians completely reject the notion that there is a Jewish people this this they I'm serious their position is there was a Jewish religion there is no Jewish people that is their position I was said to me by our bosses 8 I have it on not on tape they don't use that anymore I haven't electronically recorded but you don't need my interview that is that their official position Jesus was a Palestinian now I I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you on this I agree I'll complete the sentence also when when the Palestinian leadership is prepared to recognize Israel as a legitimate nation-state of the Jewish people is prepared to lay down its arms prepared to give up its right of return it's alleged right of return to recognize that there was a transfer of populations 700,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries at the same time that about 700 thousand Jews many of them left because they were promised that they would be able to return with a victorious army some of them were expelled by Israel that those are the conditions are for peace I am NOT optimistic I think that peace and a two-state solution is in the best interest both of Israel and the Palestinians and I think what we need our statesmen rather than politicians and and I really do think that the elements are there everybody knows what a suits a solution would look like everybody knows what the borders would look like and it's to me just shocking that even with the tremendous effort of secretary Kerry who really had worked his heart out for this that he was not able to achieve it and yes I praised secretary Kerry's for his efforts I think he did an enormous ly good job in trying to narrow the differences and I don't think you can blame him for the differences not having been narrowed I think he made some mistakes I do blame him I blame him for wasting America's time on a project that that could never been abroad I'll tell you why you don't think America has an interest in trying to help no I think it's about Amin Israel yes it is in the whole world people make peace with their neighbors on their own somehow everybody else who has a peace treaty didn't need America to force it down their throats so obviously it's a bad idea everywhere he's an arrogant man who thinks he'll succeed where every Secretary of State before and say oh good that's what we need we need more ragini more Eric women and men who believe they can succeed where no one else has succeeded it was another arrogant man named George Mitchell who believed he could succeed where no one else succeeded and we managed to bring about peace in Northern Ireland because and Bernstein's pride by the way to bring about peace as well in the Middle East I for one will never give up and will always vote for candidates who will try as hard as they can to bring about peace in these two areas which i think would be in the best interest of everybody always I will always vote for candidates who say that we are with Israel that we least support free states over police states that we fear a world where Iran will have a nuclear weapon and will not negotiate with them on exactly how many rotators they can have at their at their atomic energy plant as you know I don't I don't disagree with that as well I think the the temporary deal was a bad one I quote the catastrophic I think that the deal will not culminate in a peaceful resolution I think Iran is the greatest enemy that Israel faces today and I have told President Obama to his face and in writing that if the Iranians develop nuclear weapons on his watch no matter how much he's accomplished in other areas of his life he will be remembered as the Neville Chamberlain of the 21st century failing to prevent the greatest evil in the world Iran from becoming a nuclear power again I want I have to commend the administration for trying very hard you try always diplomacy first you always use the threat of military as a last option again I want to criticize J Street because the American policy is not to take the American military option off the table whereas J streets policy is to take the American military option off the table and that is not conducive to a deterring Iran from developing nuclear weapons on these areas we don't have fundamental disagreement but I want to maintain but you agree to marry president again well it depends on who's running against him okay lower it always did I'm Jeb Bush any Republican I could name you would still vote for this man despite fact that he's quickly to be the knife Chamberlain although certainly wrote for this man because he can't run again for election about that guy okay but my my candidate was Hillary Clinton and my candidate probably will be Hillary Clinton again let me but we're getting we're getting too political here that's right I mean let me be clear about something else I do not vote for candidates solely on the basis of their positions on Israel for the most part I want to make sure this has been the case in every presidential election so far the candidates do not differ on Israel they shouldn't affront Israel we always should have a bipartisan consensus on Israel I will vote the candidates based on their views on the environment women's rights gay rights health care a range of other domestic and foreign policy issues I want to see a strong foreign policy I want to see America lead the world but my hope is that I will never have to cast a vote for president based on who's better for Israel I want to make sure both presidential candidates are always positively inclined to it Israel batting the goals before we wind down the evening you have a an anecdote in your book that you and us medina jawed actually was the same hotel in geneva yeah can you briefly to share that attic my wife and i were sitting and having a drink and I tell in Geneva I was there for a counter demonstration against op Medina jawed who was invited to speak on to the United Nations and we were planning a counter about after Medina John walked in and smiled at Carolyn my wife she what she's beautiful in Modena dad was was flirting with her Carolyn had the wherewithal to boo him back which I commend her for and and then I challenge them to debate me on the Holocaust on whether it occurred and he said his through his aid a fine we'll do it at Harvard he would have welcomed that I said no we'll do it where the evidence is at Auschwitz and at that point I was arrested and carried away by two Swiss Guards it was humiliating especially since one of them was a really big tough woman who carried me up fortunately I had a close friend in the White House on speed dial I was able to make my phone call and and and and and get rescued and then the next day he made his speech and I managed to get into the area where he was speaking and I led a walkout of many people including many delegates when he made his first reference to the Holocaust not occurring and he really had a horrible experience and he was booed by delegates to the United Nations and so it was a it was a good arrest [Applause] I'm going to close in a minute but I'll acid if you'll just remain seated for one moment out of respect to the guests first of all to remind you that there are books available Dennis's book Allen's book and also we have some books that were written as the one the National Jewish Book Awards OSI clientele ladies like dreamers we have some extra books available so those are being sold if you make a right turn when you leave within the building down at Plotkin chapel we have a very large number of people here tonight mostly members of our congregation and we are blessed to have an exceedingly large number of people who are very supportive in our congregation and to those of you who are members of our congregation we here tonight I want to say thank you for being here I also suspect we have a lot of people who are not members actually will you raise your hand if you're not a member of our congregation no no then have members raise it always looks like more than it is have members raised I have members raised our hand too all right to those of you who are not members of our congregation or perhaps any congregation a special welcome to you and a special welcome to you to come back to participate in the many wonderful things that are happening here at this congregation please please remain seated folks it's not Yom Kippur so another way out may I add is a non-paid member of this congregation that it really is worth joining this is a very special place and I know why this is not just words I want to give you an idea of the specialness and I'm here at an auxiliary sort of minion that is here but I'm here Oh virtually every Shabbat and teach once a month that this minion but I just I want you to understand this place really does welcome Jews of every type and I don't mean ethnically obviously that's true but I mean philosophically the fact that I have any role here at all is an example because too much of reformed Judaism has not allowed conservative small C Jews to speak and to be to be in any way prominent and and the the rabbi's run the gamut and you obviously see me an extraordinary evening that has been put on tonight this is a this is a wonderful place and synagogues need you and to prove the point about how eclectic this is if I lived in Los Angeles I would be a member of the same synagogue that Denis is a member of and boy when we have good fight so rabbi Hershiser I just want to acknowledge your presence and thank you for your leadership and rabbi OS mica you are a jewel in our community and [Applause] thank you let me thank you let me just close with this thought we just finished Passover and at your in your Haggadah Passover Seder there's the tale of five rabbis rabbi Eleazar W Shula rabbi Eleazar son of Azaria rabbi Tarun Rabbi Akiva and the one thing we know about those rabbis and it described it they got together for their Seder in Bonet Brock the one thing we know about those rabbis if they didn't agree on much at all but they came together for the experience of the Seder and I suspect they enjoyed each other's company they learn from one another they spoke about the Jewish future and they celebrated their Judaism tonight two of our country's most agile and insightful thinkers have done just that both of you reflected so beautifully on the spirit that those rabbi's of the Talmud had and this evening it is we who had the privilege of learning from you and in doing so you helped us to celebrate our Judaism ladies and gentlemen please join me in thanking Alan bersin listen going enrollee

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Length: 97min 47sec (5867 seconds)

Published: Wed Jul 05 2017