All right. Let's bring a big, warm welcome
to Esther Perel and Trevor Noah. Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. Hello. Hi Trevor. Hi Esther. How are you? We're going to be talking about
stage fright later, but I have a lot of stage fright right now. I think they're going to come
adjust your microphone in a second. See, I'm sitting with a pro. You, you hear how I sound. I do. I mean, I, this is what I do all the time. So I have an intimate relationship
with microphones and speakers. Okay. I help people have intimate
relationships with people. You should try it out. This episode of Where Should We Begin? is very different for me
because you are a guest. We are going to be in conversation. And I thought, why talk with a comedian? And I often think that comedians
are prophets who speak the unspoken. Skewer the prejudices,
highlight the hypocrisies. And, um, particularly at this moment
in time to talk about the use of humor, the role of humor is a conversation
that I was very much looking forward to. Why did you accept to talk to me? Because I wanted a free therapy session. And I wanted to do it
in front of strangers. That's hot. No, I, um, I've always
loved learning from you. You know, we always have wonderful
conversations whenever we speak. And I, I, I always feel that every
discipline, whether it's an art or otherwise, can contribute
or touches other disciplines in some way, shape or form. So when I, when I speak to
an art historian, you know, to our conversation earlier. I learned something about comedy from it. If I speak to, you know, a linguist, I
learned something about comedy from it. And it doesn't even have to apply to
comedy, but I just find anyone who spends a lot of time in their field has learned
certain things that are applicable to almost any field in any space. And so, you know, I don't
think you can talk about comedy without talking about psychology. I don't think you can talk
about comedy or the relationship comedians have with an audience
without thinking like a therapist. And so I thought, that's what. What better conversation to have than with
somebody who I think is, is, you know, at the top of their field about comedy
and then everything that's not comedy. And then where did the two overlap? And you know, I thought, why not? So, you know, comedy, laughter, humor,
if always been a part of the cultural and political landscape, right? The gladiators in Rome, before
they went to their last fight, they did graffitis with funny stories. That, that blows my mind. But there is another one. Like, did they do this on the walls? Where were they on the wall? So they would etch, they would etch,
they would etch imagery and, and, and statements that basically highlighted. What I think is one of the things
that we don't often think about when we talk about humor, which is
that is, it is our ultimate freedom. We decide the perspective that
we will take on something. Um, it's, uh, the French philosopher
Beckson, who really wrote a lot about humor, spoke about it as
the ultimate freedom and Boccaccio wrote during the black plague
and he has all these storytellers. It's like in the midst of darkness, in
the midst of hell, there is laughter. So I wanted to ask you. How does that sentence speak to you? And what do you see is the role of humor? We have wars right now, we have Israel,
Palestine, we have Ukraine, we have Sudan, we have the climate crisis. I mean, we have a lot
of things to cry about. And you make us laugh about them. Well, I think, you know, it's interesting
that you say you can create your reality because I think laughter is strange in
that if we think of all the emotions that we're able to express or feel, one of the
things about laughter that's particularly interesting to me is it's one of the few
emotions that robs your pain of its power. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So if somebody's doing something
terrible to you and you cry. In many ways it gives them power. If you get angry, in many
ways it gives them power. If you get, whatever it is,
a wide range of reactions and emotions, it gives them power. Laughter is strange. I remember watching, you know, movies
when I was a child, and, I would see, like a, you know, the villain
in a, in a movie get caught and then getting punched or something. And then there would always be that scene,
you know, it would be Joker or someone. They'd start laughing at Batman
while Batman's punching them. And the Joker's there like, Ha ha
ha ha, ha ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha. And this person's getting punched. And all of a sudden, the punching
almost seems meaningless. Why, why, why bother? If this person can laugh while
you're doing that to them, then Then you don't have to be afraid. Then you have the power. Then you're doing to them,
rather versus them doing to you. You know, it reminds me, years back
I worked on a theater project, and we were doing witnessing theater, theater
arts against political violence. We were working with a group of Chileans
who had been in solitary confinement, tortured, resisting the Pinochet regime. And we were trying to be very
solemn and sanctimonious and humble and really make sure that
we captured what they went through and the horrors of their captivity. Then they came to watch the play and
they talked to us, looked at us and said, but you missed the most important thing. And we were like, what have you done? What do you mean? Humor! You think we survived in solitary
confinement by being solemn? You know, we were scratching on the walls. We were having wars. We were laughing with the torturers
and we had the last words. Huh, I'm noticing a trend of
people scratching on walls when things are really bad. This is something I need to try. Yeah, I need to try it in my home. Um, I will say I've never been
to a truck stop where there aren't etchings on the wall. So Maybe this is an
ancient wisdom we have. Like it's it's interesting
that you say that. Did you, now when they said that
to you, How did you process it? When somebody says, we're in solitary
confinement, we were struggling, we went through a lot of pain, and then
you reenact their experience, and they say, you didn't remember the humor,
or you didn't include the humor, how did you process that, and how
did it change how you saw stories? Well, I thought we missed it. We thought we were being respectful
by being very serious, but that didn't capture the experience. And that there is tragic optimism. That means that you get to
decide your reaction to the events which you cannot control. And that's what humor often does. It helps you, you know,
confront the uncontrollable. Yes. I think, you know, to your
previous question, I've often found that hu You know when people
say, What is humor's purpose? It's like saying, what is water's purpose? Humor is as broad as water is. You know, it's like, oh, you can
use it to cook or dilute, you can use it to wet something, you can use
it to I think that's what humor is. To destroy something? Yeah, you can, to destroy something. There are some parts, there are some
times and some moments where Humor is used as a tool to, you know, like in the
case of Charlie Chaplin, for instance. I think what was amazing about
what Charlie Chaplin did is he used humor to bring Hitler down to
the size that he deserved to be. He used humor to remind people
that this person wasn't a god and this person wasn't impenetrable. That's what he used humor to do
because what Hitler wanted was for everyone to look at him seriously and
go, I'm look at me, this is who I am. And Charlie Chapman was like, no, let's
look at him as how we wish to see him. That was one, one use of humor. Another type of humor is, you know,
there's the gallows humor, people laughing at the end and in a weird way, controlling
their own destiny and their own feeling. That's right. The ultimate freedom. Exactly. Yes.
Sometimes you use humor to connect people. You use humor to laugh to get some of the,
some of the best laughs I've experienced have been at funerals and at wakes
and in moments where everybody is sharing a collective grief
and someone will punctuate that. You know one of my favorites, um,
my favorite moments was um, One of my best friends in South Africa
his uncle was diagnosed with, with cancer and it was stage four. And he was in the hospital bed
and his whole family had come in. And essentially the doctor said
there's nothing they can do. And the guy had a few months
to live and the whole family is gathered there with him. And his brother leaves the room comes back
after 15 minutes with an animated face. And he says, guys, guys, I
just spoke to the doctor. He says, there's something we can do. He said, there's something we can do. And, and everyone's like, what? And he turns to his
brother who's in the bed. I mean, this man is dying and he looks
at him and he says, the doctor says, you, you have to see how far you can bend. Can you, can you still bend
your, your, your rib cage? Can you bend your head? How far forward can you bend? And he says, I don't know. I can try. And he says, he says, if you bend,
bend far forward, go all the way down and kiss your ass goodbye. And everyone laughed. Everyone, the man in the bed,
the family, the everyone, people had been crying the whole time. And till this day, it is one
of the biggest laughs that is shared in and amongst the family. And I always found that magical. The story of this man dying,
and he did die unfortunately. It's a happy story. But that story, when you ask them, your
uncle had cancer, or your father had cancer, or your brother had cancer,
they go, And he died kissing his ass. Exactly. I think that's what makes humor magical,
is that it serves many purposes. So I thought of another one, because
when you look online, often what you see is all the physiological
benefits of laughter Yes. Right.
That it distresses you. It reduces cortisol levels. It increases endorphins. It's a resets. But I thought, and this is linked
to my work as well, that humor is the closest you can get to
a person without touching them. How does that sound to you? Wow. Uh, as I would say in session,
sit with this for a minute. That's profound. I think it's profound because
touch, depending on how you hear it, can be positive or
negative, and so I agree with you. Because in many ways, humour is a form,
a way that you can touch somebody else. I mean, look at the scenario
around the dying man. Yeah. You have unity, you have solidarity. Yeah. You, you are puncturing vanity,
you know, can you still bend? hmm. Um, it really was a way to getting
very, very close to each other. The, the reason I think you are, you,
you are so right as well is because human, relies on sharing a reality. Even if it is for a moment in
time, even if it is just for a sentence, that's what humor is. One of my favorite things about
humor is you can often tell a joke And people will laugh before
they can think about the joke. And then sometimes they'll go,
no, I don't find that funny. And I go, you've laughed,
you've laughed already. It's too late. You can't. They go, look, no, I shouldn't have. I did. I don't think that that's funny. It's like, no, no, you laughed. It's finished. It's gone already. And I find that that's what I, you
know, to that point of touching somebody without, you know, getting close to
them without touching them is that's what humor is, is you're finding a
moment where you connect with someone. In a shared moment of truth and
humor, by the way, requires truth. That's maybe, that's maybe
why I find it so intimate. It always requires truth. I don't know if you experienced that
because you, you use humor in therapy as well, but like, do you find, do you,
would you agree if I was to say that humor always has truth connected to it,
whereas maybe facts do not, you know, when someone just tells you a story. You often find they can, they can
fabricate, they can move this, they can put it the way they, but humor,
especially when other people join in, it means that people have actually agreed. I mean, you can only laugh together at
something that you relate to together. Yes. So, and when it's true, It's on top
of it more powerful because it is subversive, especially when it's
something you shouldn't be laughing at. Yes, yes, yes. Right. So I had actually written it like this. This is an American, we called
it American multiple choice. Okay. You know, um, comedy exposes hypocrisy,
builds bridges, tells the truth like no other, speaks the unmentionable,
punctures vanity, challenges falsehoods and skewers prejudices. Creates unity and solidarity
what does your comedy do? I think my comedy does as many
of those things as possible but when i was when i was when i was
performing comedy you know before I was on The Daily Show before people
really knew me one of my favorite moments when stepping on stage was
the fact that the audience had no concept or perspective of who I was. I was a stranger stepping up in front
of an audience about to engage in a really intimate experience with them. And a comedy club is oftentimes
100, 150 people and that's it. And I remember one day because I would,
you know, I would always have this, this, um, this awkward feeling at the
beginning of a comedy show in many ways, you know, you will talk about that with
therapy, you know, where should we begin? Where do we begin? And I remember one day I said
to the audience and, and it stuck with me for a few shows. I said, comedy is a lot like sex,
you know, it's a seduction exercise. It really is. Because as, as the performer, I'm
playing the role of one person where my role, my job in this moment is to
satisfy you as the audience, and then You know, the audience essentially
is telling me how well I'm doing or not by how much noise they make. And this becomes This
is a double entendre. It really is. And it becomes a real back
and forth in a relationship. And there are times when the
audience might get uncomfortable. And my job, I think, as a good comedian,
is to Is to try and provide the context for them to understand why they should be
comfortable with me, but also understand why they aren't comfortable and be able
to move and, and, and play in that dance. And I, that's why I think, I think it's
exactly like sex in that sometimes you think the audience might come to the show
going, we want you to do what you do. And then midway through go, I don't
know if I'm comfortable with that. Changed my mind, changed my mind. I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. Let's, let's go back to missionary jokes. And that's fine. That's fine. And, and, and it's interesting because
then sometimes an audience becomes more comfortable and then you do engage. And it's, it's a constant. When you go back to missionary
jokes, do you ever lose interest? I don't, I don't because, because what
I, what I've learned over time is all comedy, the entire relationship, just
like sex is all about context and context. It is about communicating with somebody
else where you are in relation to them and then hopefully them understanding
where they are in relation to you. Right, right. You know, there's a very interesting
distinction in Latin, in French too, about context rīdēre to is to laugh. Okay. Derīdēre is to deride it to humiliate. Right. It's just. two letters that make
the whole difference. It changes it. It changes it because it says that
you can't laugh with somebody who is feeling vulnerable about the
thing you're trying to poke fun at. Which is a little different
from your uncle's story. Yeah. So, my question is, do you find
that it's harder these days to make fun of certain things? Are we more vulnerable today? Are we more prickle? So, I honestly, I don't think we are. I might be, um, I might be the outlier
in this feeling, but I don't think that people have become more sensitive. I don't think that people have
become more easily offended. I don't, I honestly don't think that. What I do think is that the way we share
content or the way we connect with people has lost the context that is necessary
for people to feel comfortable with. When telling or not telling a joke,
you know to use to use the same analogy of sex When you have sex
with somebody it is an intimate moment where you get to know them. You both become more and more
comfortable with each other and as the layers of clothes are being removed
You are both consenting to each moment that then leads to another and
then you are engulfed in each other. And then you go where you
wish to go to together. But now what what the internet and
social media has done is It has teleported us to sex with people
that we weren't even having sex with. You know, so of course you'd be offended. You know, if, if, if some random person
was teleported into your bedroom and then said, let's have sex, I think you'd be
offended because there's no backstory. There's no journey. Who are they? How are they? Do you know their story? Everything we do in sex is a
terrible, disgusting thing. If you don't have the context
for the other person, right? I call it the plot. Yes, thank you. Yes, the plot, the plot. Um, and so, and so I think comedy
itself is that you, you, you, you have social media, which has been amazing
for many things, but now I can have a conversation with Esther online. We can be laughing. We can be tweeting at each other. We can be sending TikToks to
whatever it might be, but somebody who has no context for the plot
or the conversation can step in. And find offense in that because they
were not part of the conversation or the plot, you know, and I think there's
a reason No comedy clubs have windows that are open to the to the to the
sidewalk Because with you walking by you would you would you'd be offended
at every comedy club if you walked in. There are people in comedy clubs who
are in wheelchairs people who have loved ones or deceased people who are dying
people who are you know you name it. You name it. People in comedy clubs are living life. They're human and Comedians are
exploring this with them. And in the comedy club, in that confine,
you'll find magic and connection like you've never experienced before. But if you open the windows, people would
walk past and say, how could you say that? How did that person,
how could you do that? So in my office, when the doors are
closed, I often help people cry. You help people laugh, I help people cry. I laugh with them as they're crying, but
I also You laugh with them or at them? Derīdēre or? With. But I don't get to decide
what they're crying about. Whereas you do get to decide what
you want them to laugh at or with. Yes, but you don't decide what
they will laugh about or with. And that's where comedy is magical. Sometimes you can say something that
you think is funny, no response. You may say something afterwards or
before it that to you was nothing, and the audience goes, that is what we find funny. You know, so again, going
back to sex, forgive me. In sex, it's like, there is what you
think is going to pleasure the person, and there is what pleasures the person. And so you might think, this is what
I'm doing, this is going to be great, and then all of a sudden they go,
actually, no, no, no, I like that. And I think if you are in concert
with them and you wish for that, To be their pleasure as a comedian. I'm not saying this because I want you
to laugh at this I wish to come I wish you I wish to bring you on a journey
with me So it is an exercise in seduction is it is over completely and you know
So when I asked you what is something that you would like to learn from me? Actually, we asked each other. What would you like to
learn from each other? I am about to go on tour and I have
a ton to learn from the pro And you said that you wanted to learn from
me How to be a better listener. Yes. Why? I think there are a few tools, two parts. One, there are a few tools that are
more important in our society than learning how to listen, not, not
listening, not learning how to hear. I think we all hear, but we
don't know how to listen. And the reason I wanted to learn it from
you and to understand, you know, if you can give us a few tips on how to listen. Is because I think a fantastic
therapist, especially in couples therapy has to listen. The partner says, she always does this. The other partner says, Oh, that's
because he always wants that. And an amazing therapist goes, what
I'm hearing her say is, and what he might be expressing is, but neither
party has said that you've listened to something that was never said. You've listened to something that may
not have come out of their mouths. It might have been a body gesture. I'm constantly fascinated by that. For life, for comedy, for everything. Because I think it's one of the
most priceless tools that we oftentimes forget about in society. It's listening, not just hearing. So, I thought of two things. So first of all, there
is Where Should We Begin? Which, for me, I always imagined, if
you listen carefully to the stories of others, the more you listen to them
and the more you will see yourself. And I hope that when people
listen to Where Should We Begin? They also listen to how I listen. But one thing that you can't know
from listening on a podcast, when you do and when you don't, the one
that you can't know is that you don't just listen with your ears. You listen with your voice. You listen with your eyes, you listen
with your smile, you listen with the hand, you listen as you walk closer
to the person, hands in therapy, in person, and not just online. There is, the whole body listens. And the more you listen like that,
the quality of your listening is what will shape, What the speaker will
tell, how much, how open, how deep. Meaning, listening is not
just the passive recipient. Listening shapes the speaker. So that's one thing I
taught for you in listening. And you do that because you are constantly
attuned to how people are listening to you and changing what you're doing in the
moment in response to how they listen. And then listening, real
listening is curiosity. It's if you listen with expectations
in advance of what you should hear, you're not listening. If you're listening with a confirmation
bias to get evidence for that, which you've already made up your mind
about, you're not really listening. Listening is a certain kind of
engagement with the unknown. It's curiosity. It's being completely available to
what the other person is telling you. And I think that that also
happens in your shows. Yeah, it happens in my shows,
but I realize why an ex of mine hated that I would look at my
phone when she was speaking. No, I just had a realization. I'm like, huh, I never thought about that. Genuinely. Are you serious? No, because in my head, in my head,
I thought you're supposed to have empathy as a therapist, Esther. You should be like, wow, and
how does that make you feel? Not, are you serious? Um, no, because because in
my head, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because you see, funny
enough, because of the way you articulated it, I'll tell you why. Yeah. I would always be hearing what
she would say, but what you just said was so, so detailed. The idea of shaping the speaker or the
communication by your full listening is something that I don't think I
fully, I would interpret that on stage. I may fully understand, but when
speaking to people, sometimes I think I'll take that for granted because I
think of it as information sometimes. So I go like, uh, uh, uh, uh,
uh, uh, information, download, download, download, download. Okay, thank you. Done. So this, uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. What we call today ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss? Yes, it's the sensation that you are with
somebody who is there, but not present. Ambiguous loss is a concept that we borrow
from Pauline Booth who talks about grief. When a person is having Alzheimer's and
they are still physically present, but psychologically or emotionally gone. Which is what happens
when you're doing this. Wow. Or on the other side, When they are
deployed or when they disappeared or when they're hostage or when they're
at war and you know that they are physically gone, but psychologically
and emotionally very present. And so you can't resolve
the dilemma, right? Ambiguous loss. And today many people in their
interactions experience ambiguous loss. I'm talking to you about
something super important and you're just like taking away. And it makes me feel like, okay. Anything I'm telling you
has no value, no importance. Yeah, no, I, I mean, I can understand it,
you know, in comedy clubs, we'd always say the moment every comedian hates is
when, uh, they're collecting the check. So you never want to be on stage during
that moment, where the waiters will walk through the room, and they'll start
giving people their check, and then you're trying to tell jokes, and people are
trying to calculate the tip on their bill. It's the worst moment
to be in a comedy clip. You can literally feel the audience
disappear from you, and essentially they're going, Uh huh, uh huh,
uh huh, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'm
listening, I'm listening. What's 20 percent of, uh huh, uh huh. So, this just reminded me, um,
So I'm going on tour, right? I want to know why, by the way. Why I'm going on tour? Yeah. For the very reason that you talked
about why in person sex is better. Yes, yes, but, but, but, but I think
more, more, more specifically for me as I'm going, Like, you already
do therapy with people one on one. I'm saying, why the group sex? That's what I'm trying to get to. I thought of it as a first
date with 3, 000 people. But, uh, not yet there. Because I I do think that breathing
together, sitting together, talking about love, sex, desire, breakups, in a
collective, actually is the most important way to take us out of the loneliness
that we often feel in those experiences. I think that we've become quite
socially atrophied after this time, and I think that we're living more
and more in a contactless world. When this conversation, I mean,
this is what's happened here. Right. People, I wouldn't, you know, like
you, we talked for two years while looking at a green dot on the screen. Yes. We never heard a person laugh. We had no idea how they responded to us. Yes. We spoke and we had no notion
of who was listening and how. We feel everything here. And that experience is not just
for me, the experience, it's the experience of the people in the room. You are aware of the other people's
responses to what's happening. You identify with others who are
sharing the same experience, even if they don't say a word, cause
you see the tears, the whole thing. And for that, I am
going back in the world. I want to have that experience
and I want people to have that experience with each other. Do you ever get nervous when you,
when you, when you, Doing those shows? So this is exactly, you know, here they,
I laughed and I, and you talk about the, the, the, the build in the comedy club. I actually need light when I talk. I need to see the people if I
have a dark pit in front of me. I have a lot of fear. I have stage fright, I need to
see, I need to see the eyes of the people who are looking at me. Because otherwise, who am I talking to? Um, I have fears about, you
know, you know what to do. Yeah, but you know what's interesting
about comedy is where, where comedy, some comedians have that as well, but
often times I find, Audiences are less likely to laugh if they're too well lit. Yes, because there's a there's a there's
a There's a freedom in knowing that other people can't see you laugh And
then you forget that other people and I think it's it's important sometimes
to not feel like we're watched In order to give our most honest response. So that's interesting that from
your side You need to see, see them? No, I'm with you. I, on and off now I, I turn
'em on for certain things and I turn them off for other things. Oh, wow. like when do you turn them on? That very like, just like after someone
has said something very awkward. who has strange fantasies, lights on. You come to the show, you watch. What do you do for stage fright? What, I have that. What do you do for stage fright? What do you do when you're joking? Wait, wait, wait. Okay, are you saying stage
fright or are you saying nerves? Cause I think the two are different. Oh, tell me. So, In, in the way I interpret it,
stage fright means an inability to perform because you are, you
might forget what you want to say. You might, you're a
deer in the headlights. That's stage fright to me. Nerves is different. So that's why I'm asking. Nerves is what? Nerves is having a fear. It's the fear of the uncertain. It's the It's the moment a, you know,
a base jumper breathes and, and you see them, you know, closing their
eyes and pumping their chest just before they jump off a high bridge. It's the moment before, uh, you know, a
soccer player walks out of the tunnel onto a field and you see them look up and they
say a little prayer and that's nerves. I think the two are very different. That's why I'm asking which
one you actually have is it nerves or is it stage fright? I have both. Wow.
I can't imagine you having stage fright. I have stage fright. And I feel like I, Oh, your throat closes. Yes. Yes. And then at moments I think I, I see
blank, like I can't remember a thing. And the minute I talk to someone
like we came on, I had stage fright before, but the moment even here, yes. But the minute I'm in conversation, I get
grounded by the presence of the other. It's when I'm talking, you know,
the part that is more kind of that I think I have a few things I would
like to say before that I need. Yeah. And nerves, I'm fine because
nerves turn into humor for me. Yes, yes. Like for you, probably. Mm hmm. So, and once people have laughed with me
and I feel like they're with me, you know. It's true. The first laugh is always
the most important, I find. Yes. But with stage fright,
I, I would love to know. I feel like I'm outside of myself,
like I'm looking at myself from the outside in sometimes and
thinking, I'm going to see blank. But I know people don't
see it, but I feel it. No, I understand that. I understand that. What I'm trying to understand is So
whenever I'm thinking of nerves or stage fright, I try to understand what
the underlying feeling actually is. I can't think in those moments. Yes, yes, but I'm saying, I
try to get to Is that rational? Yes, but I'm trying to get
to why can't you think? By the way, it is very rational. Sometimes it's overstimulation. You know, there's too many faces,
too many eyes, too many things. It could be you. You're a perfectionist, which I know you
are, by the way, it could be you in that moment thinking about all the things
that you've prepared up until that point. I often find people who have
stage fright are often the people who also over prepare. I am an overprepared. Yeah. Yeah. Because when you overprepare, you, you,
you have so many things that you've, you've inundated your brain with. That when the moment comes, you
go, wait, do I remember all of it? And it's almost too much
pressure in a strange way. And it's why, um. I remember when I was in school,
there was a teacher who taught us, said, Hey, the last thing you should
do is study the day of the exam. The last thing you should do is
talk about the exam before the exam. Everything up until that point, she used
to say to us, she'd go, If you don't know it by the day, you don't know it. Trust me. She'd be like, just
move on with your life. And, and I think that stuck with me. It's, you know, so for stage fright
itself, I find, I find that there's um, And maybe that's where, that's where small
talk comes in, which is another thing. I don't think you're
great at a small talk. Neither are you. Neither am I? No. I'm fantastic with, I'm
better than you at small talk. I'll say this. I'm better at you. I can, I can, I can create the
veneer of enjoying small talk. You do not have small talk at all. That is true. But you pretend it's small
talk, but it's anything but. Yeah, no, but I'm engaging in small talk. But I'm getting something deeper from it. There's a difference. That's you. You are not even into small talk
land at all, at all, at all. Why you've listened to where should we be? When was the, when was the last time you
said to somebody, ha, this weather, huh? So I will tell you where
I do my best small talk. Yeah. I've made some of my best
friends on airplanes. Before they put us in these
singular cubicles that make sure that you never talk to anyone. I met so many people on the
plane, exchanging newspapers. You know, I was reading Le Monde,
they were reading Liberation. You know, we knew exactly
our political affiliations. And I think when you sit up suspended
in the air, Like in the movie, you start these incredible conversations
and they can start with small talk. Like, do you travel this airline
frequently or where are you flying to? Or is it work or pleasure or any of this? And then it's amazing what people tell
me when I wrote the State of Affairs. It's about infidelity. Yes. Do you know what people
told me on airplanes? It's just unbelievable. It's a living confessional. I think there's two reasons. is no small talk because people come to
me and start telling me very important, secretive, deep things very quickly. No, but I think it's And I respect it. No, but I, I think, okay,
I think it's two things. So one, I'll, I'll actually
get to that part second. But the first part is. The thing about airplanes number
one I think there is something that we have learned and that is
if you have a little less oxygen. You're a little more free No, I'm serious. And that's why people breathe into
paper bags before they go on stage or they know really it is that sometimes
It's just like letting your body's you know, stress really stress response
go down a little do you do any breathing before you walk on stage? Yeah, so that that if you if you get the
right breathing that might help but the other thing about planes might be to your
small talk is You have inherently Agreed with somebody that you are going through
or doing the same thing The fact that you are in a plane with somebody means
that you have both made the same decision to head to the same place In life, even
if it is just for that moment in time And so now you can say to somebody, huh? Do you often fly this airline? Huh? Do you and you? And which is one of the most important
things that people are afraid of. You don't seem like a crazy person,
you know, if you walk down the street and you say to somebody, do you walk
down the street often, you could look like a psychopath, but on a plane,
because we've made this shared reality. Exactly. There it is. And so I think I find that that
is the key to good small talk. The key to good small talk is
to acknowledge the environment that both of you are sharing. That's why weather is the most. Widely used small talk possible because
it's the one thing that we all have to experience whether we like it or not I
don't care what newspaper you've read. I don't care where
you're from in the world. I don't care how you see the world It's
raining It's raining wow this rain, yeah, man this rain, huh Ah, this rain. And now we're in. And now we're in an elevator and we don't
even do this kind of small talk anymore. Because that small talk would have
accompanied with the second line is, so where do you get lunch when it rains? And then where do you get lunch when
it rains could have become, Oh, let me take you and show you a place right
around the corner that you don't know. And we would have begun a whole
relationship with this one little line of small talk and we don't have it. Why do you think that that's gone away? Because, exactly what you described. No, I agree. I agree. I agree.
I think it's, I think it's The fact that we have a means to
contact the people who we already contact all the time, means we are
less inclined to contact new people to share experiences in life with them. So if you eat an amazing meal
That is extremely well said. You know, if you, if you enjoy an amazing
meal The thing you can do now is tell someone, you know, immediately about it. You can text your friends and
go, Oh my God, guys, I just ate at this phenomenal restaurant. There you go. Whereas before there was a time when
you literally just had to talk to somebody on the train, the bus, the
wherever you are and just turn and say, yeah, have you eaten at this place? Oh, that was, that was amazing. Cause you have, there's a,
there's a wonderful, um, there's a wonderful feeling in your body
when you have to share something. Yeah. That's the second place where
I've met people is restaurant. Yes. Yes. You start talking with the people next
to you at the table Next thing you're in a bar to get the next thing you walk. Oh, yeah, you see so there So I have
a question for you because you know me a little bit What advice do you
have for me as I go out on this tour? You're touring all the time
Off the record, you're going out in the world right now. That's the name of your tour. Yeah. Mine is just called An Evening with
Esther Perel, which I think is beautiful. I like that a lot, but what do you do? I mean, one thing I thought of with
you, what does he do when he bombs? Like I say a sentence, people laugh. The next day I come, I say the
same sentence, nobody reacts. And I don't know how one recovers
from this thing so fast, but that's just one like, what should one know? I've never done 10 in a row like this. So, okay. I know, knowing you,
this is what I would say. Um, so it's interesting every time
I go out and do shows or anything that I do in the world, I try and
think about what I'm going to give. And then I try and think
about what I would hope to get and the get always changes. The give varies, but not
that much, but the get always changes for me on this tour. I think you have a wonderful opportunity
to delve into the stage frights. Understand it, tame it, or
even use it to your advantage. I think that's a wonderful
thing to learn to do. Um, you should, you should, you can do,
but you see that that's the amazing thing. The, the, the second thing I think to
remember is, and this is, this is the. It's all about expectation. So, you know, when you say something
as a comedian and it doesn't land, the crowd doesn't laugh. The only reason you can feel bad about
it is because you expected them to laugh. And if you do not expect them to laugh,
all of a sudden everything changes. It completely, completely changes. Going back to what you said, if you are
curious, you don't have a preconceived notion, you don't, instead of going
out and saying to an audience, this is funny, you're saying to an
audience, Do you think this is funny? All of a sudden it changes because
when they go, no, you don't take it as a personal affront anymore. Now you're like, huh, why
don't you think this is funny? And now you go down that rabbit hole. Would it be funny if I said it this way? Would it be funny if I said it that way? Huh?
This is really interesting to me. And all of a sudden you find yourself. down a road that you never would have
otherwise because you had assumed something that was supposed to happen
and then didn't and now you're in your head going, why didn't they laugh? Are they going to laugh at
the things that come next? Oh, where am I? What am I doing? What's going on here? Oh, this is terrible. I don't know what's going to,
and then it's over for you. So I think that's, that's
something that you can let go of. Also, when people are coming to, to, to
Esther Perel, I think, The primary reason they're coming is because they want
to grow, they want to learn, they want to, um, explore conversations that they
maybe aren't able to have by themselves. They want to be in community,
in these intimate spaces. So the, the one thing for you that
you should also take with you is no one's expecting you So that's a bonus. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, if you, if you are of the
profession and you do not deliver it, people are disappointed. You know, so if I'm a stripper and
I do not turn you on, I have failed. But if I'm a bus driver, and I
start taking my clothes off, and you get turned on, that's a bonus. Mr. Trevor, I'm gonna thank you because
I want us to actually bring this community that is here with us. Um, so first of all, your tour is called
Off The Record and the reason I called that funny enough that is because you
know It's funny you and I often are in the similar zeitgeist or we experiencing
a similar zeitgeist in time I call it that because I wish for more of those moments. I wish for more moments
where we are off the record. I wish for more moments where
we exist from here to here. Nowhere else, just in that moment. I think that's how we build communication. That's how we build understanding. That's how we build context. But now, even in politics, we live in
a world where one politician, will not even engage with another politician
because they're afraid that the outside world sees them and then questions their
validity within their political sphere. And then that means no
talks can ever happen. And I think we need to do
more things off the record. You know, love can be off the record. Your relationship can be off the record. A conversation, a room like
this, let's do it off the record. Sometimes, you know, where it's like,
there's no phones and you have to just remember everything and then you have
to go and recount it to somebody else. And you have to go and try
and share it with them. I want to, I genuinely
want to get back to that. I want to be in a place and a space in
time where I say this happened there. Ah, you, you had to be there. And if you weren't, you
won't fully understand it. And that's fine. Privacy, intimacy. That is also other words for
what happens off the record. But your podcast is called Now, what? What Now, what Now? . Yes.
No, and it's funny. No, it's funny because, because
it goes by, it took us a long time to, to decide that it is
because they are very different. Yes. Tell me, so what now is because I
wanted to have conversations about the conversations that invade our lives. And I, I love that thing of you. You, I would always say that to friends. You know, we'd be having a conversation
with someone, go, huh, did you see what ha, what's happening with TikTok? And then I would say, oh, what now? It's just like everything in life. I always feel that there's a what now,
and I think the double entendre of it is what now, where do we go from here? Okay.
This has happened. There are many things in the world
that are going to happen, but what now? I don't think we spend enough
time in society asking the what now we've gotten really good at
reacting, but we haven't gotten good at saying, okay, it has happened. What now? As in a session that starts
with Where Should We Begin? Exactly. So, um, listen to his podcast,
go to his tour, and Listen to her podcast, go to her tour.
