A Conversation with Dr. Howard-John Wesley hosted by Dr. Frank A. Thomas

we are excited to have for this marvelous interview dr. Howard John Wesley the pastor of Alpha Street Baptist Church and also a student in the ph.d program in african-american preaching and Seika rhetoric so we are just so wonderfully glad to have you and that you come and take this time and she had a genius that you have in preaching I don't know if I use term genius but it's a its honored to know those who sat in this chair before me the women two men who we study and read and know that I'm following that legacy is humbling for me yeah I you know we we talk about this in the ph.d program all the time so I appreciate your dedication to the legacy because there is this vein of people who get up and ignorant of the history and the legacy that they've been given yeah so you know in a class we said nobody preaches ex nihilo out of nothing you come out of a tradition so I appreciate you honoring the tradition and that's really what these interviews are about to honor it to preserve it to archive it to discuss it and also to carry it into the future so there's a lot of people who know who how a John Wesley is but just with a couple people that might be an audience that don't do not know you what would you like to say about yourself well if I had to summarize it I take great joy in being fifth-generation preacher mmm within my family doing the research and tracing back all the way to my great-great-grandfather which is probably why I didn't want to be a preacher my dad was and it was a pastor and so most people will know that Iran accepted a call at 16 but figured this would be a side hustle you know do it the way a lot of puberty you know just kind of show up on Sunday preach every now and then and so I went to school you know for a whole different objective I wanted to be a doctor and it was in my first year of medical school that really heard the lure call and say this is not what you're supposed to be doing and I want to thank the Lord because at the time I didn't know but Sam Proctor was at the Divinity School at Duke and I was hanging with some divinity students and he asked me why I wasn't going to seminary mm-hmm and it was one conversation with Sam Proctor that pointed me to seminary and from there the Lord just kept opening doors and doors and doors and so even though I never had the opportunity to sit in class what Sam Proctor to know that that one conversation impacted my life and I can write Sam Proctor on my resume somewhere kind of legitimates my called a little bit more you know yeah yeah so from there it was just a real journey of the Lord opening doors from Massachusetts 10 years in Springfield Mass where I think the Lord really groomed me for destiny which is at Alpha Street Baptist Church so you see it five generations so tell me about those five generations all right so my father was a preacher and pastor in Chicago for long time was an associate minister received a call when I was about 16 so when journey with him and sat underneath him with my call and clearly the most influential person in my life which the church in Chicago Hermann Baptist Church Hermann Baptist Church old historic church was built in 1888 which again I didn't know was preparing me because now I passed a church that was built in 1803 so they had that kind of longevity as the people of color you don't find many churches that are still thriving like that start doing the research I was on a plane with the gentleman from Ireland who was telling me he could trace his family back eight generations and it made me feel homeless and my sister and I decided we're gonna do some research on her family so then found out that my grandmother's father Alfred lawless was a preacher in New Orleans and mayor of fact there's a high school named after him so to me she didn't realize okay maybe there's more to it found out his father and his father's father were all preachers and that's as far back as we could trace so just knowing that on my grandmother's side there three generations then we hop over to my father's father's side and then my dad and now me so you know nobody ever count those five generations lets me know maybe this is what God wanted me to do from beginning and I was just you know trying to trip a little bit do something different those of us who do not have the generational lineage of pastors and preachers believe and I heard Henry Mitchell say this as well that those of us who have had that generally generational lineage have an advantage so give me your feedback do do you think it's giving you an advantage absolutely I look at and I'll admit what I see with some young preachers today who don't have those models of ministry of mothers and fathers and ministry but have that sense of calling but kind of flail in the wind a little bit so right now when the biggest things important to me is legacy and helping younger preachers by mentoring that that's key to me right now because I realize how much that meant for me in two ways one the name wesley meant something coming up in Chicago and I had opportunities to preach at 16 that never would have come my way had it not been for my father so doc I probably preached more youth days second Sundays in June so by the time I got to seminary I already had two three hundred sermons behind me and preached in Chicago for the likes of like a doctor you know of dr. Currie you know and him grooming me preaching for dr. whatõs and him bringing me in the back and after everyone patted me on the back he took out a red pen and showed me everything I did wrong you know saying with dr. Currie like you would feel like you failed because it just they prodded you for everything you did wrong and but realizing that those are growing experiences they were training me and disciplining me for really being able to stand and authentically with integrity proclaim the Word of God and then some of my dad's the name and then just sitting watching every Sunday we've talked about this in class a lot of black preachers learned through emulation in observation kind of like an apprenticeship model I think one of the writers we talked about so you know being just sitting under him and having that every day going to national Baptist Convention's and carrying bags and being the young man that was driving to go pick up Franklin Richardson go pick up dr. Jamison go pick up dr. Sampson and sitting in the car and just being there while these young men while these great men of God were preaching and talking about preaching and I'm listening and they know I've got a call to preach so that that that wasn't valuable I wouldn't where I am without that legacy and I lament that that there's some new don't today which is why it's important for me to try to replicate that which is why mentoring is important which is why this program is important being part of this ph.d program to pass that on so the others have that genius so now tell me about preaching mentors who were who were and are preaching that just for you clearly my father learning listening to him which is crazy because he never had a seminary education but he just had a passion for preaching the Word of God and I can remember his sermons to this day learning to live with the things you can't change unfinished business like I hear those sermons because you preach them all the time yeah yeah by five servers if you cook I heard all them multiple times and and I love them but I think part of the greater was going to the National Baptist Convention my dad was an officer in the convention so the convention in the Congress and the state conventions were major and we go and sit through those so early in life dr. Franklin Richardson became a mentor I love listening to him preach despite all the controversy I love listening to dr. Henry reliance you know and just that melodic voice that he had and I fell in love with whooping even though I couldn't do it you know so I'd go to late-night which is a passion of mine learning learning preaching sitting at the feet and watching all these great preachers you know coming on out of Houston when I thought about hey Lois Patterson late night you know listening to see a car CAW Clark those preachers man I would love sitting in there so my mentors were more from a distance the hands-on ones my father dr. George waddles in Chicago and then dr. Franklin Richardson had and still has a tremendous impact on my life and as I've grown I was able to incorporate some women in that circle who began to impact me so you know I think about like a zena's Jacques home with the seminary within her voice and I began to train me Carolyn Knight came into my world through Marcus Cosby and I got to say you know not a mentor but there's something positive about having that friendship that Marcus cosmonaut I've been friends for over 40 years and to see how the Lord has moved our paths together and how we've written we've probably written hundreds of sermons together and we know about the partnership of having someone to bounce share your theology and your homolytic against so all those kind of really helped shape me so talk a little bit because we we see sermon really as an individual enterprise most of us so if you all have done a couple hundred sermons he got to talk to me about that time how do you well I think it was one of the greatest assets learning my own voice in preaching was to have a friend who could hear the illustrations and said now I may need to tighten it up this way so we would start our sermon work together probably every Thursday evening talk about what we're gonna preach and then at the time neither one of us had Saturday services so Saturday evening man we were running the determined by each other he would tell me what he was preaching to ask me how could have you know shape this a little bit better I'd run some ideas by him he'd help me see things in the text how to structure it so at that time my gift to him was illustrating you know that I believed every sermon needed illustrations his gift to me was being able to litter eight and structure the sermon in three liberated points and that was that was grooming that was helping us learn our voices so every Saturday night for at least ten consecutive years we work together on writing sermons and that helped us develop our own voice and so that was a valuable contribution because I wasn't just sitting in isolation with pen and paper and commentaries and trusting the Holy Spirit I had a preacher hearing my ideas and we talked him out all night long and there were some dates we didn't go to bed two three four o'clock in the morning on Sunday morning you know just grinding those things out and I think that that made us both better preachers I knew of the partnership but this this is fresh material and I would encourage other pastors particularly younger pastors to find people that can be honest because oftentimes in the church people can't be honest they'll be honest outside your presence yeah but you always did a great job with the members and you need a no man or no woman someone that bounces the ideas off and can help you see what you miss right that's right that's right so how would you categorize your preaching expository there to topical how would you well you know not we're in this program and even reading the definitions of these genres we see how very fluid they are you got a gimmick Laura's book preaching terminology I would probably say a hybrid of expository and narrative first of all no Shana is set in an instruction boundary and I think all of us if we're good at preaching will attempt to preach in different voices and different genres throughout the life but 80% of the time we probably narrow in so I've personally defined my preaching as prescriptive preaching and that I tried to merge what I identify as a relevant life issue that is prevalent within the congregation and a text where that relevant life issue seems to be simmering within and how does this text address the relevant life issue particularly in behavior transformation which I get you know from this preacher I know about you know then when you preach it on a transformed behavior but particularly what the text is encouraging us to do to believe or to become and so for me the sermon I tell people if you watch me long enough it's so simple and it's probably not even profound I want to raise a relevant life issue make you connect with it make you see that relevant life issue in the text so that you and the text are now combined and how the text speaks to you in dealing with this relevant life issue and it's really that simple you know and if God allows some grace to throw some celebration and you know because you have to have some experiential preaching uh then it's all the better because that helps because you I do believe this that people remember practice and perform what they've celebrated not what they've shouted but what they've received is good news and I think in our world we have to be clear that celebration is not necessarily shouting because there are those as you know who want to reduce it to simply a charismatic cathartic moment without understanding that this is much deeper we're riding on what you call those inner tapes those core principles and values use that allow people to grab points that is good news and then they're encouraged to practice what the text prescribed and so I bring a little bit of you know my medical desire to want to help people but I believe the text prescribed they they teach us what to do to believe in to become see one of the things that the prescriptive homiletic that is what what develops in the ph.d program is you get to name your own homiletic right in other words you're doing it already but you have a name that's right so then you read in the field yeah and then you put that together and then you're able to name with a kind of exactness and clarity what you're doing why are you doing it I mean that's an excellent summary of your preaching and I'm proud of it because you knew it but naming it is a function of being in the program and to see how did it come ex nihilo you know so we're reading Paul Scott Wilson and say oh wait Brian chocha pal he he has some of this you know and I can see the different humble additions who I may not have been exposed to but we're also in that line so it now makes me actually more secure to know I didn't just create this out of thin air I'm not some genius this has been a train of thought in some scholars minds for a while and I've embraced that as well so now I feel like I'm grounded because I see where my own methodology is in the field and the discussion and now I can ask myself and how do I contribute to that exactly exactly exactly and so then this will I say about you know theory what this is what theory does you know it's like you know you can play the piano and then you can take music theory that adds to it you can preach and then homiletic theory adds to clarity about and we have a lot of people who are marvelous preachers and wow that's me they can do it but then to pass that on to somebody else right or to mentor other people you got to be able to name it what are you doing right why are you doing what you're doing right now so I want to want to talk a little bit about the the Wesleyan quadrilateral right yeah so in class we have this big discussion about about scripture tradition reason and experience and that every preacher ranks so so for some preachers scripture right tradition reason and experience so our song folks tradition my scripture right so I remember your formulation so tell me tell me your formulation well one I think a lot of preachers are just unaware of how all four factor in right no one is just all biblical in all scriptural we bring that's almost like to suggest that there's no bias in our own preaching that is purely me exposing the Word of God no we all have our fingerprints on it as I've gotten older so I grew up strict Baptists you know Sola scriptura the Bible is infallible inerrant and insufficient right and sufficient for our salvation did nothing wrong with Scripture and I realize the older I've gotten that if I used to have scripture at 90% it's come down to 60 and I balanced that with experience that I believe is authentic and understanding God with reason and with tradition to keep more of a holistic balance so scarily I believe I'm more of a 25 25 25 25 now that that scripture is the leading dominant voice in my sermon preparation but I bring other sources in an example we are at Alpha Street making a move towards inclusion a belief that sexual identity and orientation should not preclude anyone from ministry involvement a little bit different than opening and affirming but we like to say inclusive and welcoming and part of that discussion required us to ask how do we hear from God on this you know we're we're we're dower sources and of course in the Baptist Church every wants to rent Bible and one of the things that's been critical for me is going to acts 15 where Peter and Paul are having this debate with the elders around circumcision of Gentiles and if you read that passage correctly scripture is the last thing they begin quoting they don't just run to the laws of Moses Paul begins to talk about his experience with with Gentiles being converted they begin to talk about what's practical and reasonable what is the tradition bin then scripture comes in almost as the last voice not to say that it's a lesser voice but it is a recognition that there's a model in scripture that says that as we discern the things of God it is not simply quoting scripture that helps us understand it that's the danger for me and I want our congregation to accept that there are other voices that guide and govern our understanding of Scripture so give an example when when you get Jeff Sessions quoting Romans to justify an immigration policy that clearly violates God's concern for stranger and immigrant and once it justified in Bible I use that to tell my church scripture quoting cannot be all that we do because even Peter recognized you can twist and twist and lead to your own destruction so there these other voices that I think we have to hear people's authentic relationship with God what's your deepest core values about God what do you believe most deeply where do you believe you see God most clearly in scriptures so I believe we have to develop a hermeneutical norm from our own understand Scripture that then helps us go back and reread scripture correctly so that there's some things I can say that's not God so you know happier those who - their enemies children's heads against a rock I don't know if I put that on God so I've gotten out of this bibliography said something in our church once that I will never forget she said if God isn't bigger than your Bible then your Bible is God right and I've held on to that and these readings that we've been going through in class now challenge to understand are you preaching the gospel are you preaching the Bible and which one are we called to preach and I love what's getting ready come up as we deal with dr. Reznor this understanding you have understand what your interesting or the gospel is in order to read the Bible correctly and I think that's what I'm working out what is my definition of gospel and that comes through my experience with God through my tradition through the revelation and inspiration of the Holy Spirit and my reading of Scripture all that shapes of my gospel which then helps me read my Bible well thank you for such a wonderful articulation I think you just articulate masterfully you know the things that we've been learning both together because not only do you all learn as I also learned because I I do some of the reading on all of it but I do some of the reading and in some of the discussions we've had wait you made us read some stuff you didn't have to eat if I teach the class I read okay I've talked for two classes yes Matt in that stuff oh yeah but you know we have more than four classes yeah other people teaching so but so then from there talk to me about your sermon preparation method so for me the sermon always begins on one of two places and this where I've tried when I've had an opportunity to teach preaching I try to pass it on either a text God as pressed on my heart or maybe is appropriate for where we are in the Christian calendar we are not a lectionary based Church I believe if I was then I probably always begin with the text so it's either a text or a relevant life issue that life issue comes from pastoring and being engaged with members and believing that as I see where most people are struggling with either and their walk with the Lord or with what's going on the world I believe that they're probably too 300 maybe two three thousand more people in church who dealing with that same issue relevant life issues are all around us if you're listening it was Cleophus LaRue who said he was interviewing gardener Taylor and he asked dr. Taylor did he ever struggle with sermon writing and dr. Taylor said yes and dr. Liu said well what do you do he said of go visit members in the hospital mmm right and sermons at birth from interaction with people so I either have a passage John four or I have an issue overcoming depression my very next step is after identified clearly one of the other to go find the X so if I've got a text I've got started doing my exegetical work to figure out okay what's the relevant life issue underneath this its what um dr. Alan Chris told us this hermeneutic of analogy as we get out of the culture of the writer and authorial intent what is the deeper human issue that's in this text that is relevant and real for all of us if I have relevant life issue and now comes the harder one of trying to find a biblical text where that life issue is in the text and that requires really that requires that you be versed in Scripture that you'll be reading the Bible for things other than simply Scripture I mean sermon writing so that if I'm meditating and trying to find an example of someone who's been rejected and I want to preach on overcoming rejection in my mind I'm asking myself where their issues of rejection in the Bible now will say that my methodology tends more towards narrative texts the Psalms and poems are probably easier but epistles are hard so the method I preached I realize I have to break that method because if I just stick with it I'll never deal with Paul line epistles I'll never deal with half the New Testament because I tend to draw towards narrative so after I found a text and an issue I then tried to find the opposite one and then comes the home letter collects Jesus you know trying to understand what does this text say about that life issue or what is this character or this model in Scripture how do they respond to it either in a positive way or negative way that we can mimic their behavior and then when the final pieces for me is doing a diagnosis of the relevant life issue so that I don't want to just say we're going to deal with depression you know I want to be able to either through my own narrative or through the narrative of another really bring out that depression bring out that rejection so that you connect more with it it's easier to me to say let's have a sermon about rejection it's much more difficult to people say have you ever been I swear you really wanted something and it didn't want you and be able to touch him and tap to people's pain or people's identification with that issue it was once said that you can't trust any prescription without a good diagnosis right so if you haven't done the examination I'm not gonna take them I'm not gonna take the pill so my objective is in the introduction to do an analysis of the relevant life issue so that the hearer feels the connectivity to it and say he's preaching to me today you know I think one the greatest things we can have as a preacher's for someone to come and say how'd you know what I was going through right Holy Spirit inspiration after that connection comes a transition of being able to share how that relevant life issue is what Moses is dealing with in this passage it's what the disciples were struggling with as they were on the boat with Jesus so now you see the connection at that deeper level of analogy and from there we then talk about what does this text say to us about dealing with their life issue what do the disciples do what did Moses believe how were the children of Israel transformed to be able to be faithful to God in the midst of this relevant life issue and then make that transferable to you and me as to what we're supposed to do believe and become and find a way to celebrate what that does in our lives in terms of keeping us connected with the Lord so it's a simple structure but there are a lot of pieces that have to develop and so for me I can never just sit down on Saturday and write a sermon you know there's a lot of pieces that need to take shape I need to do my analysis of the relevant life issue do the research do the statistics what's out there in the medical journals about depression so that I can at least stand and be somewhat versed on what I'm speaking about and then comes the home letter collection Jesus the work on the text itself and this program has given me a desire and passion to get back into that even more so not simply reading and trusting on my seminary education but getting back into Atlit pulling up more journals reading more commentaries to understand the depth of this this text that I'm dealing with and then comes the structure of it all together and the toughest part for me because I'm not a manuscript preacher is to and done have it outlined strong enough that can then meditate on it so math Saturday is usually spent quiet time sitting preaching the sermon in my head time and time and time again so that I can trust the Holy Spirit to use me in those for preaching moments over the weekend to get that word out so it's the preparation it's the meditation then it's the delivery so there's not a written manuscript behind your sermons it actually is so and I think we all go through phases there is a time it was eight handwritten yellow legal spaces there's a time when it was a piece of paper fold didn't have writing on the back in the front there's a time when it was three no cards there was a time when it was two pages handwritten what I call a strong outline but now I realized I typed faster so I have a typed two page strong outline that I then write on with color coordination so for me the colors are important I write outline stuff in red and that lets me know that's Bible if it's blue that's an illustration if it's green it's semantic it's either Hebrew or Greek and if it's black it's just narrative so I can look down and so rather than writing out of full illustrations let's say I'm using those tration about us being in class I'm not gonna write it all out I'm gonna take blue ink and say dr. Thomas in class right and that's all I'm gonna put on the paper so I looked down quickly I see that blue dr. Thomas and it reminds me you got to tell the story all right so it allows me to keep eye contact with the congregation to just tell the story and then look back down see Red John four and then I know I got to go back to John four but that's after 20 years of preaching that's what that wasn't be my name please I don't want mine I start out that's after 20 years of preaching and someone said it takes 10 years to learn your voice in here right so after 10 years I learned to I was and then start to try to I don't say master but sharpen that so that now I'm comfortable in my own skin and I can look down at a strong outline and know what I'm trying to preach I want you to tell me about a time you felt that God really used you that that I mean God used you was just so overwhelming a time in your preaching ministry but you just knew God used you just profoundly that's easy so we have four services Saturday and three on Sunday at the time it was three two on Sunday and I took we preached the same message because if not the crowds won't leave and we've got to shift people so it was a Saturday evening I preached servant went home Saturday is my Sabbath the time so I just lay down and go to bed I woke up early in the morning on Sunday it was about maybe five o'clock and my phone had blown up I mean just text after text I had the guy like over 120 tweets that had come directly to me and they all said I wonder what pastor Wesley's gonna preach this morning I don't care for you why do people why are they concerned I'm a preacher about preached last night turned on the television George Zimmerman had been acquitted hmm and if you remember that happen late on a Saturday night and I woke up on Sunday morning not knowing it and it was five o'clock in the morning so I've got two choices well three I can just preacher I was gonna preach and I deal with it maybe we deal with it at all to call you know cuz that's what I want to do or god I got a preach something else and I knew God was saying you got to preach something else I mean it's five o'clock service is in two hours right what do I do Lord and I don't want to a moment like that everyone's coming in that's a relevant life issue everyone's walking into that church in a predominantly black Baptist Church and they need a word from the Lord and Doc you up you are God's voice in that moment we need you because we about to burn this city down you got to say something cuz we mad as heck right and all that is coming together and I got a preach and I method to start kicking in and I start saying where have people had to deal with a painful verdict and the Lord immediately put me in the mindset assignment of cyrene Jesus was convicted wrongly he's done nothing he's since to die and Simon's got to carry the weight hmm he's got to bear the weight of it and I knew that's what I had to preach so then the question is okay so what does Simon do to help us cuz it when you got two hours you got to go to your stick like I got two hours I gotta use my method right this ain't no time to be I try to be like anybody else you got to be you so I started looking at what Simon does and how Simon carries the weight and what it is that enables him to carry the weight that his sons are right there right and if he doesn't carry this weight correctly the Roman soldiers could not only take him they could take his sons so he's got to deal with this for his children's sake Christ walks in front of him he drags across behind that there's something about keeping your eyes on the Lord in moments like this and Simon of Cyrene he's he's from Africa now we don't did the Bible you know interpreters don't like to give northern Africa Africa credit but Simon of Cyrene is from Africa he's an African and if anyone has the ability to carry the weight it's those that have some Africa in their DNA because we've been through this before so those are the three movements and the sermon was called when the verdict hurts and it's it's probably the most viewed that I've had out there and I jokingly tell people if you hear didn't think that there was a lot of preparation you did wrong that was all God mmm-hmm you know for that moment to have a message that touched me because you had to touch the hurt you had to touch the anger you had to touch the frustration otherwise it's an authentic right don't just get up and give me a shout it's gonna be okay no you got to give me a moment to say I'm mad about this and that's what I did and from there get into the text preach the three points and it was written up in Time magazine I'm Elizabeth Diaz a writer called it the best sermon she's ever heard around the George Zimmerman verdict and I have to say only God mm only God I couldn't I couldn't have written that in two hour I could have written that in two weeks if I'd known it was coming you know but again I've been meditating on the Via della Rossa that whole week I've been rereading Jesus rode to crucifixion so that was in me already it says you get hurt you can't just read Bible to write sermons because they're gonna come moments when you need something in you that the Holy Spirit can pull out and that was purely a god moment now let's go to the other side so give me a time when it was most difficult I mean personally or in the church or it's just your most difficult moments that you had to preach you know what some people would probably say funerals we had a member who unfortunately just recently committed suicide but I didn't find that the most difficult because I believe being able to tap in that people's pain and validate their experience and pull people out of judgment that's an easier test my most difficult sermon was the last time to preach when I was leaving my church which church st. John's car rationale Church in Springfield and it was not a pleasant departure not that there was scandal but alpha Street had called I turned them down and the Lord I felt like I did Joan experience oh you're going Alfred Street right and then to come back and tell the church so when I turned out was free down I told my church I'm staying only for the Lord to can pick me and have to go back and say I'm leaving and people were hurt I mean I didn't know how much of an affinity and love they developed for their pastor this is my first church so people were hurt and it got ugly it got ugly and I had to preach a farewell sermon and saying goodbye was hard symbolically mm you know give you a funny story um Alfre street elected me and it was a Tuesday night I'd never forget on Wednesday my wife at the time called she hollered she's like you got to come downstairs I ran downstairs the lead story on NBC was prominent pastor leaving this is on Wednesday the vote was on Tuesday someone had called and getting info and I hadn't been able to get to my church yet it's running on the news before I can tell my church so I walked in that Sunday and when I stood up I said I have something to tell you I'll never get a memory to back stood up we know Gd well you got something to tell us like it was a furious name and I never encountered that kind of hostility in a sermonic moment you know I'd never had people walk out on me or get frustrated and to see you know people walking out and cussing leaving the sanctuary well I'm trying to preach I was tough that's tough moment yeah yeah so what was the sermon Paul's farewell to the church in Corinth you know and I tried to tie in to remember everything that's been done here Paul planted Apollo's watered but God gave the increase you know and to get them to trust that this has always been God it always will be and you all will be fine but it was not well-received there weren't any amens and there were people getting up walking out and more than the sermon the delivery can you continue to preach when you see people walking out so what did you learn you have to write like you got to preach through sleeping deacons I've got to preach through crying babies and if you believe that where you stand is authentic and compassionate you got to keep going and that helped develop a discipline in me that we don't preach for crowd approval you could preach to folks standing up shouting all day long right that give you in curtain so if you're connected to that response you also have to be connected to responsibly the or you're connected to validation knowing you're faithful right right that every sermon is not gonna shout and every someone's not gonna make people leave but you can get a mixture of both on a lifetime of your preaching if you're pastoring because every server is not popular and some are dangerous and you gotta preach them yep yeah so have you been back since you left I have never been back I will be I've been invited back to come to the city this year but even funerals I was denied the right to come back and preach this one knows the Lord closed the door mmm you know and I pray them well and I know that there are many members there who prayed me well there is some you know obviously hurt and I definitely thought I couldn't handle it a lot differently I don't put it on them there are many ways I could handle that differently idea that doors just been closed I've learned that there's some doors that are closed that only God can open so I I'd like to get your feedback but you know because tarnation you passed it for ten years people you know that's a wound yeah I would imagine yeah so but God does healing in some amazing ways so what give me a sense of that there's some doors God closes that we can never open again and there's some that may have to be closed permanently hmm for both parties to be moved when almost default to Jesus tell him disciples I have to leave if I don't the next move of God can't come for you which is the Holy Spirit right so that's brought me comfort because it has been painful not to be able to go back you know a church that together we grew from two hundred to three thousand you know and to now almost be persona non-grata like my man they got every pastors picture up behind you know it hurts fun you know but that church continues to grow the new pastor's doing great things there with those people so you know and the reality is I landed in destiny without that pain I couldn't pass to where I am and I love Alfred Street Baptist Church like my prayer is Lord let this be the last stop on the journey so you know sometimes the pain is overcome by it so I often tell me we just did sermon on Jobe everyone wants to shout on God restoring job but if you've lost ten kids Tim Moore don't that doesn't erase that just God continues to add to the story and God continued to add to my story mm-hmm Alpha Street ain't bad restoration right yeah it's not bad restoration for the pain and so I pray for them and there's some people there that still really connected to intimately who I love who speak with me they'll be they followed me where I come they come to Albert Street all the time so those ties are still there and I've had to learn a value relationship even when I didn't have the formality of going back to preach them maybe something that was ego you know is the church I built I want to go back and preach I want the new pastor invite me back to revival maybe that's a you go and maybe that's not God's will well thank you for sharing that thank you for sharing that that's helpful to a lot of us so thank you thank you one of the things that I would like to just in a brief way explore with you is the gift of alpha street to the Sonia and I believe deeply and empower black philanthropy yeah yeah and you and Alpha Street made a profound so I want you to talk about it and I want you to be I don't want you to think that you've ray I asked you to talk about it you just talk about it because I think that it's a model that an African American churches that we and we've always done philanthropy and we also been philanthropic but I think you you all took it to another level so whatever you'd like to say about it but I don't want you to think we're about bragging cuz I'm asking you to sell them all right so quick narrative about it you know obviously the vision and fundraising for the Simonian began long before Lonnie bunch was out beating the ground long before the site was even identified and the location of the church I mean literally a weekend and we can sneeze and and and be at the at in the middle of DC where it is so the location was critical and the church 18:03 were 215 years old we believe in the power of the story of African Americans cuz it's the story of God you cannot tell the story of America without African Americans right this country is built on our blood and that that's prevalent in the mindset of our members we have we have very unique set of members man we have up early mobile educated HBCU these this is we it's a strange almost 80 percent of our congregation has a lot in common like we believe the same so one of our members was on the head the fundraisers and she approached the church and said I would like to have the bragging right of saying my church was the first million dollar donor let me tell you how easy that was it went through the trustees and the Deacons and me and the church in less than three weeks with with an air and nave out mmm I mean I haven't been able to change the color in the bathroom that easy at we fight over everything yeah and this million dollars zipped through the congregation without any objection the church like that's exactly what we ought to do so there are two things I'm proud of one is that we had it then we had a million dollars to give but even more so was we at the heart to do it that the congregation believed this ought to be our legacy right that that when this museum goes up which is a testament to this nation of the story of african-americans alpha Street has to be part of that we have to be so to have a million dollars phenomenal to have a membership that said give it and it not hurt your ministry even better so we decide to and the thought was that hopefully it will inspire other churches and sad you know not bragging but on the sad side we were the only faith-based institution in the United States in the world to step up to a million dollars and we know that the other churches are able not to castigate them or to you know speak about why they did or did not but we thought it'd be more motivational we thought it would inspire others to step up to that million dollars quick story so we paid it off in three three-year increments of three hundred and thirty thousand dollars each we didn't go to extra fundraising from the church we were able to pull that out of budget and we have this huge HBCU festival every year that we bring in all the HBCUs it's over 5,000 students that come now hundreds of one side applications more than two million dollars in scholarship given away and it garnered so much attention Facebook became a corporate partner and funded it at the $300,000 level and I was just sharing the congregation everything we've given out comes back to us right and that that's the model of philanthropy that I mean you weren't talking about tithing the members you got to demonstrate it right so one of the things I've learned in this program is you've got to give a stewardship of what happens the money that that's what encourages people to give a meal Aaron wants to push that honest people need to know demonstrate what you're asking people to do so we gay it comes back that's how God operates but we take great joy every time members come and you see that wall you can't go down three names without saying Alpha Street Baptist Church and members take great pride and saying that's us I mean so people know Emilio is philanthropic strategist for the ph.d program she works closely with me and we've raised almost 1.1 million dollars out of the african-american church through her leadership her training so this is for it for our viewers so they'll know what right when you say a meal a morning in the program that she works with those Senna's training us all and growing us all in philanthropy and I think as you seek to leave on living legacy through this piece you remember it's important that people know everything we do is not just reading starting your writing papers that's 98% of it to me because it's a scholarly program but we've talked about the living legacy of the church and a culture of generosity and philanthropy and so to have sessions in class where that's what we talked about and how that's what we're charged to create in a program that we're going to introduce to the world that's generous generous to be able to come to this program and have no life-altering debt I mean this this phenomenal you know if for us to be able to pass that on so that you can come out of this with this PhD helped change the world and not be broke as you were coming out of undergrad you know that it's phenomenal and I appreciate learning as much about the scholars and how politicians as I have about the culture generosity because it's what I preached the church so I want you to talk about the scholarship that you have made for the next cohort not you know you this ain't bragging cuz I'm asking you to talk about this that that that the investment in the neck in cohort two so a little bit about that well when I found out that I received a scholarship and that Alpha Street Baptist Church committed to the scholarship that paid from my full journey into this PhD I realized that was money I wouldn't have to pay and really moved by a me sharing with us like how important that and how we have an obligation to pass that one and so the court together began talking about creating a scholarship but I also knew that I felt I had to personally in the name of my mom and dad mess man my um I graduated Duke without a near student loan cuz my dad paid it all right and he's always tell people oh yeah he'll know how to hear on the album John Weston scholarship yeah he'll my scholarship so in honor of his legacy and what he gave me I want to be able to pass another one and so you know approach to others and say can we can I fully fund a student in the name of my mom and dad and without too many restrictions I like for them to study something in the Baptist faith or somewhere if they're gonna do a preacher or some project it's not limiting but that's would be my desire because that's what was important to my dad and that's what's important to me and to my mom and you know to be able to have that left over from you know my dad's life and legacy it's important to me so now I'll take great joy in knowing that another student in the second cohort is gonna have the same experience I had you know to enjoy this journey to grow to pass one and not have life-altering debt and we remember the name valve and John Wesley and Helen Wesley that means a lot to me that's what we called a culture of generosity and that's an inherent part of the ph.d program that that we we are given to and we give freely so thank you so much and I know that some of this is difficult you know I know you know I know it's not bragging I think for me it's helping people see what God can do yeah and what responsibility in part they can take because I think I am extremely proud of the fact that the overwhelming vast majority of the donors to the ph.d program 99 percent and we want everybody to give I'm not excluding anybody coming right out of the black church yeah yeah and you know it's one thing you have a ph.d program and it's grants from corporations and this and foundations and these things but when the church so I have so much support out of the out of the after the black church that it emboldened me and encourages me and lifts me so and you're part of that so I just want to you know thank you for that well the freedom he gives to the program you're not controlled you know we don't we don't have to jump through hoops of other corporations and foundations I think it's critical and in any fundraising you know when you go to someone else they don't ask you out how much you bring to the table how much you get from your own people you know and to be able to say we've got this from the black church itself only strengthens a position if and when you decide you want to grab by the money from other corporations foundation when it's necessary so what what has the what has the PhD and so you know people will say you know you you got alpha Street you preach all over the country you know you've got major chops as a preacher why would she need a PhD and African American preaching hmm however several reasons one it's my own personal development house would be better you know Peyton Manning was known as a great quarterback and he tell you he spent hours studying game film not just to his own but of the greats that came before him so for me the study helps me become better and with humility I say and I'm grateful my church doesn't regret giving me the time and space to the ph.d program cuz even leadership comes back and says your preaching is better you know the depth that you bring to the preaching moment is better some of its unconscious just because I'm reading more I do better in a discipline course of study so I will tell you my brain is firing on different things I'm being exposed to different thoughts I'm being exposed to different writing it's it's making me a better preacher I feel I feel stronger when I stand in the pulpit because I've got grounding and it wasn't just I open up the Bible and came up with three good points you know now I'm gonna challenge mine in different ways so the breath of reading is making me a better preacher and ultimately I am fully aware that all of us have a shelf life and I don't want to live beyond mine in the pulpit we know stories of great preachers kind of like Ali who got in the ring one time too much you know that the church would have done better to pass it off Alpha Street is an amazing Church that deserves an amazing succession plan that requires me recognize my time as pastor is going to end I don't want to do this till I'm 70 or 80 60 65 I want to know that I can walk away because the stress the strength we once asked a question about LeBron James how many dunks does he have in his legs he's great right now but how many does he have how many great sermons do we have in us you know and I don't want to have to preach beyond 65 I want to preach one out when I want to not because I have to you know and distress fo I don't want no more meetings man so so the question is what comes next and the clear train for me is if I'm serious about legacy is the Academy you know to be able to teach and to write people can listen to our sermons but you've press upon us as writing right there's where the discipline comes and that's where the legacy is left and that's what we're validated and as I was exploring the program and you and I were just talking in general at one of the consortiums you pulled together you said something that I'll never forget until you have the PhD you're always adjunct and there's nothing wrong with that John nothing wrong but I want to do more than that Howard John Wesley wants to sit as a full-fledged partner at the table and have my thought my work and my scholar should be respected and the PhD is necessary to be able to leave with academic scholarships something for generations that come afterwards so I would pray that I'm able to make a contribution to the field that 20 years from now someone's talking about you know the same way you know I'm reading about other preachers that they'll not read about me but reward my thought and theology and theory preaching was and so the peach team journey it it's making me a better preacher it's helping me prepare for the future and to be honest with you it gives me a respite from church you know every Monday when I'm in the library I'm not thinking about meetings I'm not worried about budget I'm in there grinding out papers and reading and knowing I'm getting smarter like that my brain is getting better and I'll be able to walk in the CTS I'll be able to walk in the Duke I'll be walking the Emory I can walk in the Yale in our conversation so I love it it's got me thinking at a different level yeah okay so about preaching and about african-american preaching I'm gonna give you the word anything that you like to say and you know a lot about it you know a lot about preaching a lot about church growth you know a lot about a lot of things so I want to give you a moment to just whatever you'd like to say I I think that with these interviews people are watching these things like crazy and they've been tremendously tremendously successful when people on other continents are watching are gonna be watching and I also said to me prior to the interview that posterity you know that so I've asked you a lot of questions but I want you to your mama what is it that if I didn't ask and what is that you would like to say I think the humility of recognizing that none of us are bigger than our tradition and it's expedient for us to know our tradition to contribute to it to add on to never feel like we've mastered the field you know so if people ask why are you in the program I'm not a master preacher you know I don't I don't think we ever get there would I be honored one day for my name the ring what a Sam Proctor oh yeah but takes work in authenticity and faithfulness and humility to get there with a scholarship and I believe bridging the Academy in the church is the necessary next move for the black church to continue to thrive then we've had this unnatural divide as a scholarship and preaching work to differ as you know though theory those who can't preach teach right and I want it I wanted to change that model that preachers do teach and have the respect of the Academy and can pass it on to the next generation that comes and so to all those who would aspire to preach who feel a call to preach don't think you've ever mastered the craft but always become a student always become a student of preaching Cleophus laruen one of his books says you know the way you become a better preacher is you go here good preaching you know so every week I'm trying to hear good preaching I'm sure even bambridge and you learn from become a student of the art so we've come better practitioners in the field mm-hmm okay okay well thank you so much for this interview I appreciate you man I appreciate it appreciate all that you know you're doing for the church african-american church Alpha Street and I just look forward to us pushing onto this dissertation and well you know what I'm as you and I have and you don't presentational even share the class the genealogy of this program you know going way back to the King scholars with Mitchell and then the demon program and you being one of the protegees from Henry Mitchell I pray that someone would say I'm in one of your projects and I'm that next generation that came out of Mitchell and Thomas and now Wesley and hopefully we continue to pass that along kind of like football coaches all trace their lineage I'm tracing mind all the way back through you so for good for bad he's the blame for whatever I become my light you know I'll be on it and and I was just say this this is legacy you know so I had to leave to churches and so your experience I had a slightly different experience leaving new faith but the content of it is I didn't know that I loved that place of deeply yeah yeah I didn't know how much they love me and we just did the work for 18 years and so we went from no land the land to building to staff to second service to third service to and add on to the building it 20-7 he could master plan and I looked up at 18 year I was just a flat-out exhausted just exhausted and so I know that and then when I left Mississippi Boulevard I did it better yeah I tried to treasure in honor of the relationships so I so much had to go through to get to this ph.d program yeah and I understand some of it now you know when we hurt you left Mississippi Boulevard you know the chatter around my generation was why would you walk away from that like that that's premier prime that's what we desire to get to but I understand now that for some of us that's not my final and full calling you know the password is great I want to bless people and be connected and family but there are other things I want to do as well and the Academy and the PhD is necessary to finish out what I believe is my full assignment which wasn't simply passed her in the preach yeah that's what I'm that's my so they said I think this is my destiny and me I mean I think the fates of my destiny Mississippi Boulevard and their seasons I'd like to and so this is this is the closing season and ministry and it's just so I appreciate you know you coming and being a part of the program it's been phenomenal to have such high quality students such as yourself and the whole team and I just it's a destiny for me and I'm so I'm just trying to follow God so but if you were to one day say are you in a limit and the lineage of Thomas I it would be like I use this I preached at Trinity's you know pastor Moss invites me for church anniversary every year and pastor Wright was and I was in the pulpit as I was preaching and I talked about you know Amway where you have this yeah you know let the pyramids right that that you know all the people that have been blessed under my ministry a percentage of bless those those up so if I get a percentage of your blessing now maybe going to glory I'm gonna be in the south [Music] you

Channel: Frank Thomas

Views: 71,770

Rating: 4.8783026 out of 5

Keywords: Howard-John Wesley, Dr. Howard-John Wesley, Alfred Street Baptist Church, Frank A. Thomas, Dr. Frank A. Thomas, Black Preaching, African American Preaching, Black Homiletics, African American Homiletics, Christian Theological Seminary, PhD Program African American Preaching, PhD program Black Preaching, Preaching

Id: 1a-6CqrnkhE

Length: 61min 51sec (3711 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 08 2019