A Conversation with Dr. F. Bruce Williams hosted by Dr. Frank A. Thomas

[Music] you it's exciting to have dr. F Bruce Williams the pastor of Bates Memorial Baptist Church at Louisville Kentucky to be a very special guest so first of all thank you so much for consenting to this interview man I appreciate you doing it it's just amazing to have you and what you know about preaching and the preacher you are I know that this is gonna be fabulous and a lot a lot of people are going to watch it so thank you for consenting to do it no thank you for asking me and I know I've seen some of the other ones that you've done and some of the kind of quality caliber of people that you have so just to be on the list it's good - it's good to be a part of this and you know to be here being interviewed by you and I'm sure people who know you and know of you know what a privilege it is giving your mind and your experience etc to be a part of this so I'm glad to be here I think my stock goes up so there may be you know one or two or three people who don't know who F Bruce Williams is and so who tell us tell the audience who argue you know my parents were Earl and Noreen Williams both of them are passed my wife my mother passed just recently I mean recent months I've got there are six of us in my family for us this is a brother my older brother I shared the middle spot in my family I had great parents I got great siblings had a good upbringing you know nothing extravagant a lot of love in the house where well I was born in Hampton Virginia my father was in the military he was a lifer was in there for 23 years we left when I was five and moved to Florida and I grew up in Florida I spent about a year in Alabama because of the service but we came right back to Florida so most of my early life I was I grew up in Florida and I only left to go to seminary to do doctoral work I mean to do master's work at a southern in Louisville and then United and Theological Seminary in Dayton so so most of my life was been in Florida I was raised there I'm married to my wife Michelle and she I met her at Florida A&M University both of our alma mater and I have two daughters ahmadi and niala - my older daughter and my Ely now he lives my younger daughter and interestingly enough one went to my oldest daughter went to Clark Atlanta and then came back and did master's work in you avail and now she's in Florida hmm oh the nonprofit my other daughter went to Howard University and now she's doing graduate work at Florida A&M University in Florida about three hours away from each other and so I've been married they're in their 20s they're Millennials 2824 been married to my wife going on 34 years and thank you and I'm married because I got a good wife so I married up and it's it's been a great marriage you know and family I just it's been a great rich experience for me and.and I've been at the church going on 32 years and and probably I've been at the same church and I feel like I've pastored about five churches even though it's give the same church because of everything we've been through when I went there there is about 80 members average age 65 now there's several thousand we say five thousand but I really don't know you know and and we've gone through a lot of transitions and changes and it's a very vital and vibrant Church in fact it's located in Louisville in part poor zip code in Jefferson County and just as an aside while I was there we had a fire while I was there in fact I was in graduate work at dr. work at United while we were and we had a fire and the interesting thing is when we had the fire I had some kind of well-meaning but misguided peers say well look now you can leave because you know there's prostitution there's there's a high misery index there's poverty there's drug try that all the pathologies of a poor neighborhood so you can leave now so you can really grow your church and and I thought about it for about a millisecond and I said well you know all the reasons you say we ought to stay sounds like the reasons I mean we ought to go our sounds like the reasons we ought to stay and I said I want to see God be God here and if there's a place God can be God has got to be here and God has shown has shown himself to be strong so what are you most proud about relative to Base memorial that I survived no somehow we made it yes of our maybe I tell you what I'm most proud of when I first got there one of the expectations when I first got there I was a young african-american pastor relatively eloquent with a master's degree all right in a church in the poorest ZIP code in Jefferson County a lot of needs historically the oldest black community in Louisville you know ex-slaves came in populated the area so as you can imagine you know we're right across where the church at that time was located in the projects so the expectation is you have a pastor there they want you to participate in every community organization imaginable in double-a-c-p SCLC Urban League and every community thing so that was the paradigm so that was the one I attempted one of the things I noticed though is a number of pastors who had followed that paradigm who had streets named after him and everything ended up with a lot of you know credibility I suppose in the community but they ended up with 12 members you know they kind of sacrificed the congregation on the altar of community service and that isn't how I saw it I said this is not the best way to do this so early on I made a decision to get out of most of those things and focus on creating a community of believers so that rather than me doing a hundred things why don't you have a community of people that do a hundred things and have them in strategic places and usually sometimes pastoral egos don't let us do that but now I got a lot of criticism because the expectation of the community is this is what you should do as a pastor and this is the best way for you to serve the community and so I decided to do it that way and as a consequence now one of the things that's most exciting about that church aside the clarity of its mission is we have people strategically placed all over the city at various places and it makes a great impact on the city that way and so I think that would probably be the thing that pleases me the most aside from the given that it's a vital vibrant community itself community of faith but it's known as a church that impacts and is engaged in the community so I think that's what excites me the most so tell me about your preaching mentors uh well my father was a pastor in the preacher not not all of my life but most of my life I don't come from a lineage of preachers I know some of my peers who I like fourth-generation patches I'm not me so I didn't I didn't enter the ministry with that kind of pedigree my father was a minister I got to know preachers because my father was a preacher pastor he was a good pastor I got to see him study he went back to school even while he had children in school he was a good preacher good pastor so in a sense he was my first model what I learned from him the thing that made the biggest impact on my father is never quit that's one thing I've learned from him he was a good preacher but he wasn't a well-known you know preacher in the regard in his circles he was considered you know the cream of the crop I watched him study so I know how important it is to study and I got to know preachers because of him but the biggest impact he made on my life and what is interesting is my father said this to me he said sometimes I feel like God called me to call you that's what he said to me so in that sense he made an impact but in terms of so he was a good role model in terms of watching him pastor people in Florida he was pastoring two churches you know they have 1st and 3rd 2nd and 4th and he'd go to one place the one the other and he had to drive to both and he was faithful I mean I watched him do that do visitation as well as preaching in terms of mentors in terms of preaching you know people who impressed me in terms of preaching I used to hear about first of all preachers that James Jackson and my dad and him used to talk about them I used to hear about them so what I heard kind of piqued my interest and then of course everybody want to be Martin Luther King so you know I was struck by the fact that you could bring the mind to preaching the way he did because one to see I didn't want to be a preacher if you want to get in the fight tell me I was gonna be a preacher and like my you know I love my daddy but I'm not gonna be nobody's preacher so I you know and one of the reason why is because some of the models you know it didn't appeal to me because it didn't bring the mind to the to the to the craft so he was one of course he brought mine in eloquence and passion and of course you know giving us Negus and he like made an impact as a counselor but there are others who one of them was the early ones was Charles Adams I used to hear him on tape before I met him on cassette the show and I was struck but I heard him preach I didn't know you could preach like that he was a good combination he's a good word Smith he used a manuscript well but what he put in sermons I didn't know you could do it the data he put in and how he did it without putting you to sleep I I mean you can't go to sleep on anything that he preaches his imagination was incredible and the relevance of his preaching to have all of that in one package so to hear him communicate so well so he made a big impact on me it's I used to listen to a lot of him I can still remember some of the titles of some of the sermons that are just legendary sermons and Fred Sampson when I was a student at Southern I went through the archives and found him he had done a kind of a revival at Southern and that was when dr. Honeycutt was there he said I want you to come preach it southern I want you to at Southern Seminary and I want you to do what you do at your own church and you know he's the Shakespeare of preachers and so his capacity for communication there's never a dull moment but the depth and breadth of what he brought biology psychology or he could quote Shakespeare or he'll quotes some obscure theologian liked a hot asian and and didn't not only he would quote teenager Dan and not theology he'll quote a prayer that who know I mean who reads about a prayer for the guy who wrote don't make a point so but he would do it in such a way and he used to be a pastor I found out when I got there in Louisville and I'm always amazed that Louisville let him get away he was amazing and so for him his imagination as well made a big impact ek Bailey also was one of made a big impact he was kind of a combination of old-school new-school but he didn't use a manuscript like Samson but he studied really hard wrote it all out and was very effective in his communicative capacity as well so and then finally my own mentor Jeremiah Wright III did my doctor with it with him in Chauhan's kanjou foo and you know studying with him was ridiculous so I liked his combination of being he's a good combination he's known for being prophetic but I know his people know he's known for being priestly too so he's a good prophet and a good pastor and to see that combination of the two expressed in his preaching as well he could do it be it have a priestly sermon and prophetic sermon or do both in the same sermon and so I was really influenced by him and he sent me to other people that he admired Samuel Proctor and others so I got to read about them and meet them because of him and so the others kind of mentored me from afar he was a more direct he and my father were more direct mentors in terms of preaching so how would you describe your own preaching style I'm I'm assuming a mix of all of these so how would you how would you describe your preacher my what I love is narrative preaching expository but narrative preaching I love narrative preaching because I love the art of story telling to me it makes sense too because the Bible is a story now it happens to be a specific kind of its Redemption stories house Kashyyyk de Salvation history but it's it's a it's a story and I like it because you know when people are young and they're kids you know the parents would you tell me a story I think that people never outgrow wanting to hear a good story right I also think that if you want people to be not only biblically literate but if you want people to remember the principles out of which that they come out of the text or the lessons that you want them to learn if you do it in story form then it's easier to remember and then I also think that stories send people back to the Bible I've heard more than a few occasions people said I'm gonna go back and read then I never I never saw that all scripture doesn't lend itself to story at all it leads yourself to expository delivery but not always the stories but even those texts usually have a background a context so you can kind of insert it within the context of a story and so that's the style I prefer is is telling a story and watching and tell it in such a way that it kind of unfolds before they hear you know one of the ways you can preach the you know that you're taught is you can tell them what you're going to tell them then tell them what you said you're going to tell them and then tell them what you just told them that's an effective way of doing it but it lets the cat out of the bag too quick I like the element of surprise so for me it's like getting in the car and saying we're going to so-and-so and especially if you're telling a story in the Bible or using a story that they know right then they think they know because they know the story so you said get in the car we're going to go to the parable of the prodigal son and ago I hope I've been able for but then you start driving and then you say look at that I've never they look out the one I've never seen that before you look at that I've never seen it and so you they think they you end up you know at the point you're making and the point even maybe a point that they anticipated but they didn't know all the other things on the way there so they didn't and that makes them go back to the text and so I love storytelling so how do you prepare your sermons it begins with the text always so I like reading it in different translations to get a feel for the text my my intent is actually to get a feel for the text so once once I've determined what the text is I try to commit it to memory as best I can because I believe that your subconscious is working on the text even if you're not aware of it so if you have it it's always with you and thoughts will come or illustrations will come or incidents will come and it'll come back to your mind Holy Spirit bring into your mind and I tell people not to trust your memory if something comes to you put it in your iPhone I have a seedbed put it in your phone or write it down somewhere don't trust your memory you'll forget it so I'll try to become familiar I read all kinds of you know different translations and then you do you know what you see that similar and what's different what stands out but you know those type of things after that I try to find out after I do word studies and things like that to me before I even try to get to commentaries ideally I like to write down what I think what I think I see and so I just write down what I think I see but anything that comes upon the ideas principles truths and then I do you know those commentaries and even do some more background to see if found correct or if truth I think I see is really consistent with the cultural context or literary context or the word itself or whatever then after I bring all of that to bear to inform me about it so I've already wrote down everything I think I see then I do the background research about it in the light and then once I do that I just start writing I just and oftentimes the text itself has its own structure so you'll have to come up with something sometimes it'll come to me that the outline will come to me and so then I'll use outlines sometimes the outline comes to me while I'm writing it but I just follow the flow of the text or the flow of the story or the flow of the thought I want to make and then you know set it aside and then go back and polish or exclude because you know if you like to study for sermons like I do you have to resist the temptation of trying to tell them everything you and file because you it's all exciting to you and so you take out for time and for focus and for clarity you check transitions and illustrations or if you're not using illustrations the illustrative language that helps people get a sense of what you're talking about because in for me the sermon is just to be heard is to be experienced so you you when I'm researching for it and writing it I'm not just going to the text I'm stepping in the text and looking around asking questions and using all my five senses to ask the questions and then when I put it together you bring the scholarship the text the the information the imagination that you bring creativity that you bring to the text and then you write it out and then I used to be strictly a manuscript preacher I would not go to the god couldn't get me to to prove it without a manuscript and now I don't use it I may be using magic a couple times a year I still try to write it out when I can write it on out but now I prefer the freedom once I internalize the sermon the freedom of preaching it without a management when I can't and so I think the sermon isn't finished until you preach it and so some people sound finish with my sermon but I don't think it's finished till you preach it then once you preach it then it's finished because there's two ways of looking at you know the art of it and everything and that is you produce it for this there's the sermon now you're finished and so in that sense you are but the goal of the sermon preparation is not simply to have a sermon the goal of it is to have an impact so you really not finished giving the purpose of the sermon until it's preached so do you bring anything to bring any notes or do you bring anything to the pulpit I don't bring anything now what I do use either I'll use a outline or but again I try to do that that's the exception now and then just the backstory about that it because of to me whether you do that or not to that own self be true but the back story is the only reason I do that is the Lord use that to teach me about faith because I always you know I'm teaching faith but I ain't exercising any when it comes to that manuscript and so I had this whole list of reasons why I wasn't going to not do without a manuscript and God had checked them all out and until there was one last one and I and the last one was checked out in a conversation I was having with a friend of mine we were eating lunch and I was talking about and I said well man I'm not I can't do what if I forget something and he he didn't even stop eating he was just eating and when I said that he said well you know part of the Ministry of the Holy Spirit is to bring back to your remembrance the things you've been taught he just kept talking I want to smack him because he had checked off my last excuse and so but no I usually don't bring anything you know the text you don't read the text but I don't usually don't bring anything so my sense is that when people come to the pulpit with no manuscript it's important for preachers to know there is a written manuscript behind a very detailed and you'd you describe that process but also in the pulpit there is oral composition you're composing so give me your feedback because I I don't want preachers or not that you said this is just some people think that it's either more spiritual not to have a manuscript or and or that somehow you just get it and there's not all this work that's behind it yeah we know whenever I teach preaching I always tell people that one of the mistakes that preachers make when they're watching very effective communicators is they think that the answer is in the pulpit to their effectiveness the answer the key is not in the pulpit the key is everything that happened before then okay and so you know I don't believe that you get up in God you know people use that text where he says don't worry when you're drugged before the magistrates just open your mouth well that's the emergency situation that's what you don't have chance to prepare but otherwise study to show yourself approved so you can't get water out of an empty bucket so if you haven't prepared anything so usually if you see someone who without manuscript whose effective a lot of work has gone into it particularly and I think the shorter it is the harder it is so a lot of work has gone into it and I've used full manuscripts when I want to be very precise and detailed or depending on the setting I preached for lot carry one time and there was no mission so I preached this one but and I didn't want to miss a lot of what I wanted to say so I brought the whole nothing there but no a lot of work goes into before you get there now I can get away these days with on occasions not doing the whole thing writing the whole thing out or whatever but I've been doing it for almost 40 years and I preached six times a week so I get a lot of practice and I was a full manuscript preacher for a year and what happens in that process is you train your mind to think through things one of the things that happens when preachers are in preparation who don't do a full manuscript and I always tell them whether you just whether you just want to use a outline or not at least still write it out because writing it out makes you think through the thoughts and makes you choose the words if but what happens is they'll get a great thought now that's a great thought and they think that because they got a good thought and stand in front of their mirror that this gonna be good when I when I do it but they hadn't thought it through and standing in front of your mirror and then standing in front of those people is not the same experience I've heard you preach many times and them just loved and just always been blessed by your preaching so I want to talk a little bit about hooping so how would you define hooping and then secondarily to that which you consider yourself a Hooper I'll start with the second one first I don't consider myself a Hooper not and especially not in the classic sense like that you know of people when you think about whooping that's what you think about so far from the audience that don't know the class that I'll give Jasper Williams or Co Franklin or people like that ek Bailey and some would even put Charles Adams in there but it's a different kind well for me I think I love it by the way if you can do it I think it's something that is generally cultural specific I think it is part of the celebrative part of preaching which i think is really important I mean how can you call it good news and there's no celebration and even when you have to that's what I love about black preaching even when there is a word that is a hard word the celebratory part of it is the reminder that there's always hope that there's that there's there's joy in the middle of it all there's always something you can celebrate it also preaching out his best is when the hidden heart hold hands so I think it reminds people who well you know on the one hand people will always have a tendency and always have a tendency to associate that with superficial purely emotive irresponsible irrelevant preaching which is not the truth but then those who have an aversion to the emotive part of it who are very cerebral I try to remind them that you're not just your mind and also people don't remember things just because it was good information they remembers things because it had the information had an emotive impact on them that's one of the reasons why people use humor because it's an emotion and humor opens the door to the information so anybody who can do it I'm I love it but it should never be a substitute for substance but the celebrative part is one of the things that makes black preaching unique and one of the things that has helped black people get through some of the darkest nights of man's inhumanity man that we've ever experienced and I think there's it's not it's not an accident that this celebratory piece comes from people who've been through so much pain yeah yeah so I'm pressed back again so tell me your celebration style your very effective as I want you to you know and I know you thought deeply about it so yeah well some of it has to do with my own excitement about what I'm preaching you know I mean it isn't you know so so I'm not a classic Hooper in the sense the ones that I've done but I have my own way of doing it and when you know when that our opportunity comes I like to flow with that opportunity and feel that opportunity and enjoy that opportunity and and especially and I love preaching all over the country I really like preaching at my own church too though I really but when you're there and you can in every pass or and preacher knows this there's a time it's almost like you you're in emotional sync with everything there's a rhythm there's a connection there's an umbilical cord and when that moment comes it's just time to have church and so and so you know it's like your book I'd like to never stop praising God I mean you know that moment is is a precious special moment and I think we do ourselves disservice when we denigrated or or are embarrassed about it because of some other cultural thing so for me when that moment comes I mean I'm not a musician like Marcus Cosby so I can't say give me a flat or whatever so if if I just got to feel it and and and people you know the guy on the talking helps brother out but I I don't have any aversion to that moment and for me it is not just emotional it is that but I think it symbolizes and at that time it is especially for the congregation it is best described because it's related to the shout that's in the congregation it's best described as a kind of unimpeded encounter with it with the eternal it is when God breaks through and when God breaks through you can't you know you can't be cute and sophistic you know that there's some evidence and in our tradition you're allowed to worship God with your whole body and so when that moment happens you know you're celebrating God's presence and God is everywhere but there is a there are times when two or three gather together there are many minutes there's a sense in which the everywhere nough some God impacts in that moment in such a way that it isn't happening elsewhere perhaps in the worst of experience tell me a time in your ministry where you really felt like a preaching time where God really used you and I know that as preachers you know we're humbled and but what would be a time when God really use your preaching minister well you know to be honest with you there are lots of times when that happens and I was speaking with someone recently there's a lot of times where I feel like I'm being carried anyway I mean it's you're having this experience where you know the encounter is meaningful and it's almost a moment when you're preaching and your step you step aside and look at yourself and say you know that ain't you that's gotta be God you know you can't even take credit for this this is amazing you know so I think that happens a lot it probably happens more than we who face sometimes Fannie Mae like well will it mint because when people's lives are being impacted like that and and and the impact that it has doesn't always manifest itself in the same way sometimes you know because of the shout but sometimes you know because of the tears or sometimes you know because of the change when people come to you and say that service and they can cite one it saved my life I've had people tell me that this sermon not just changed my life it saved my life cuz it changed my life well I think that happens really frequently in our worship experiences because it's the word so I you know so if you're talking about it being impactful and effective that happens regularly in some sense because I have a regular experience of being carried this is not me this is something being on myself I could think of one though this happened before I started pastoring I was doing church planning for Southern Seminary Southern Baptist and 82 I just become a student there and we would go they take us I was taken and dropped off in Kalamazoo Michigan so we would well I was while we were planning churches and they said pioneer and it wasn't binary with the churches everywhere but I would go door-to-door and ask people if they wanted to do Bible studies and then you're supposed to start a church for those people well I would actually send them to the church I was worshiping at while I was there to keep myself spiritually up so the church I was worshipping at on the weekend one instance where the pastor the church was invited to go to a church in Battle Creek and the pastor couldn't go and he sent me I was in my early twenties in my twenties so I went and when I got there the place was packed right but the people didn't know he wasn't coming and so the the pastors there the people are there and they're like he didn't send some boy in his place and his pastors like okay wait let's get it we don't know yet let's get a do two chairs you know I'm terrified because it's packed and now I hear that they're you know they don't send this dude the boy to do a man's job and so I'm like Lord if ever I needed you I need you down that experience I remember what because the expectation was so there were people were disappointed the expectation was low you know people's like well let's see how are we gonna get through this or am I gonna stay kind of thing and the lord have mercy on the brother and it was phenomenal the response and so they asked me to come back and preach so I I figured I did okay if they asked me to come back to preach the interesting thing is they asked me to come back to preach when I came back to preach it wasn't as good a job I mean they seemed to think it was I didn't think I thought it was like Oh Lord I guess I wanted to worry about coming back here so i'ma go over to the other side and I want you to talk about a time when preaching really was difficult one of your most context of what was going on in you preaching was really difficult I've been through difficult seasons in pastor ink I've been doing it for thirty to thirty years we had the fire and we were displaced we didn't have a place right before that someone had called and asked me as a United Methodist brother we have this building and we know ones in it do you know anybody can use it as him no I don't know but if I do I find I'll let you know right after that we had the fire so I called him back I know somebody who use it that was a tough time a stuffed season because okay now I've got to lead people through we're homeless interestingly enough those were difficult times to preach in the sense that there was so much going on that you didn't always feel like you had the time to prepare the way you would like to and you know how important it was to be effective preaching through that season but it was during those times when I seemed to be the most effective in terms of the people so that it was hard to preach in the sense that the season was hard but and I was tired you know there are times when I'm tired but the moment of preaching lips say like this there were there are times and more times when it's time to preach and I don't feel like I could do it and it's hard not to do it but when the moment comes when you stand to preach it isn't what if you thought it would feel like and so the wind of the spirit blows on it and so I can tell you that there were times seasons when we were displaced when we were homeless you have to figure it out or when we were trying to build a new building and there was the controversy about what we should do and all the stuff that goes along with trying to cast vision and can advance people and all that kind of stuff and how you should do it and all that it was really hard preaching through those times but there is a sense in which it was preaching that got me through that those times you know I know one of the reasons why I'm on earth is to preach and so it was the preaching it was cathartic for me and it reminded me because of the experience I had in the preaching moment and what God was doing in the souls of people and bringing people during those tough times it reminded me of the power of God on the and the grace of God so it was difficult seasons of preaching but the experience and the lessons I learned got me through it and I don't and again now that I think of it I don't even know how I would have fared had I not had the opportunity to preach through those moments at the time I don't know if I was always conscious of it at the time that it was what was helping me but I could I knew while I was preaching that it was a you know it was a good experience to be preaching and watch people respond during some tough times and tough subjects you know I'd have to deal with so have you ever gone to a preaching slump you know like baseball players they have slumps have you ever gone through a preaching slump yeah I think I have I'm trying to remember I just really I'm trying to remember what it was and I'm it's difficult to remember when it was but I can't remember that it was I remember thinking this feels like a slump I don't feel as carried I don't feel this I don't feel the wind of the Spirit as much I don't feel it it feels more laborious I don't know what they attributed to I don't know if it was because of something I was neglecting as in terms of my own spiritual upkeep but I do remember that I felt like I was having one the interesting again the interesting thing is there was no indication from the congregation that I don't know I'm saying you are you okay you feel like you're in a slump I just felt like I was in one and it was just harder to preach but I don't I don't remember attributing it to it being a hard season that there was something going on just felt kind of and and it didn't feel as effortless I asked you that only because I think that all preachers go through slumps except we don't talk about it and so you got young preachers so any sense of adoration that it was you know a couple weeks you know out of it no no it was longer than that and it wasn't like a year but it was it wasn't like six weeks either I think it was like yeah I mean this is tough right here I don't know what this is so it may have been months six months or whatever and I'm trying to remember too if I even talked about it and I may have and if I would have probably would have been some not a lot of people but I would have talked to some close friends of mine about man you know how do you get through this time or do I really feel like this is dry I do remember an instance where it was I just felt like and this is an instance kind of symbolizes the experience I remember instance where I was just having a hard time with this sermon and it was getting close to preaching time and I was like man I need it so I called Kevin cause because my probably my best friend in the city I don't I do man I'm having a tough time getting through this I just feels heavier just got no fresh thoughts don't ya just feels what do I do and he said man go play some basketball and I was like do you didn't it I said I'm I got a preach tomorrow or the or the day after and I'm having I'm stuck I mean I and my idea was to push through to you get it he's like dude you need to go do something else that's your problem go do something get your mind off of it go play some ball and I'm trying to explain to him I don't have time to play ball and so I took his advice I went and shot ball and when I came back stuff was just flowing so I think part of the slump may have been not taking time away from it then I give your mind chance to do some other things so if you had to recommend three books three preaching books to our audience dude well I'm at a up from the from the get-go I can't in the sense that these are two three books that are critical because what happens in my at what has happened in my ministry is that at certain times in my ministry God always brought two things in my life that got me through it was people and books and so when people ask me what book changed your life and what book there isn't a book because it depends on what I was going through so there so there one thing that is for certain is that there is no paucity of well we're going to put this way there are some good there's good material out I still think that like preachers don't write enough about preaching your book of course they like to never stop praising God everything my hint the Mitchells Samuel Proctor you know the the books you would hear from black preachers who read but those authors are critical I think the fundamental the one in seminary that was real thick book my professor was dr. Cox and he had a big book out and that would that but that book was a really good book the interesting thing was he wasn't known for his ability to do it but he was right in his book so that's a kind of an old standard book but that's a good book some of the stuff that's out would fall in the category of kind of popular stuff to me isn't all that good but some of the old standards by some of the people like I mentioned are excellent sources and then people they cite anyone they cite but any particular book that really changed it depends on what I was going through at the time tell me you mentioned teaching preachings tell me a little bit about where you preach I mean where you teach preaching and what you try to accomplish in students that you are teaching preach oh I haven't I'm not an adjunct professor like some do on the side I'd welcome the opportunity but I'm not but there would be at conferences conventions or churches I just Ozzie Smith covenant in Chicago I preached for him and he asked me to come back and teach his staff and other people he invited so I did that and then I'm gonna do a part two to that and I'll be preaching there so sometimes that'll happen somebody would ask me to teach preaching out of place where I preached or again in conventions and conferences and things like that so when I do that when I do teach on preaching one thing I always do is I never talk about preaching without first talking about the preacher so that's the first thing I talk about you talk about the preacher and then the preaching because I think sometimes preaching when we talk about preaching we kind of have a way if we're not careful of talking about the art and the craft separated from the preacher and I don't think that's beneficial or appropriate so I always talk about the preacher first and then I talk about preaching because it to me they're connected I appreciate you talking to me about in a this whole question of teaching preaching because I think that one of the things that I fight against and is that this whole education thing and that the only way that you can get me and I'm not making anything up myself morning is to pay $3,000 for seminary class income and everybody can't either for that everybody can't do that so I was blessed to receive so I am really committed to non seminary training of preachers and I sensed that in in you too so so tell me about tell me tell me about your commitment well one of these I enjoy is teaching preaching to non seminary training I enjoy both settings but I really do enjoy it particularly guys who want to come and can't come they want to go and can't go have a passion for it are thirsty for but don't feel like people will take the time with them or they think because they think so much of you they think you will not come to speak to them or at their churches or with their associates or anything I only got 12 members right right you know you don't want to come you wouldn't come out would you ask me how come they can't afford to come well you know we can't afford you now so who's said anything you know so I'm committed to that and I love doing it and and they really appreciate it because for me the the philosophy of academia is what could is that if the masters don't benefit and so some of us get to preach around and teach around enough that somebody who asked 12 members who can't you know to financially just just say well just I'll go because I can you don't the fact we some of us ought to take some money we ought to say here's yeah well let me leave you some money you know but the end in the in the really good thing about that experience is they have a tendency to really appreciate it more sometimes than people who are you know academic trained or in seminaries they appreciate in seminary because you got to go to seminary but they're in that class because they want to be in that class that you're in my my first revival and I called up FGM Sampson in Detroit Frederick G Sampson a second and I said I want you to come as I got a little church and Barbara was the secretary I said I want him to come but I know he'll come to this little church she said to me and this has been my motto she said he doesn't come based on size he comes based on calendar calendar is all right you go I sure you come and he did I mean little Church you know you've been there yeah yeah you know means just you know first revival you know I don't even know what to pay a river that's what it took so it's just I appreciate that people don't people forget or don't know that I was a new church right and I say stuff like you know these big churches will come out come by us like ocean liners and they the waves and the water will keep our little it's right I don't go on so I go and count on calendar and if you can we can pray and you know God lead us and so anyway better cuz this and I don't want to go on too long with that but so tell me about your experience the difference if there is a difference between preaching has an itinerant around the country and preaching as a pastor at home well I get to do both but I think there would be a difference if you were only in a tenor it and not a pastor because your preaching is shaped by in part by the environment that you're exposed to so if you're an incinerator then you don't always know your audience and if you do you kind of know it superficially unless you really so the demand or the what you would address wouldn't be as you wouldn't be as informed and you could probably take the same thing around doing that you know same sermon or sermons as a pastor you not only are you shaping people with sermons the people are shaping your sermons by their need or about what you're trying to address in their lives or in their context what's happening in the world what's happening in their community and they're in the back of their mind they're wondering what does Jesus have to say about this and so there is a difference because there is pastoral preaching and now you can be prophetic in a pastoral environment with the at a church but you're also trying to in addition to that because you're we are called to do that but you're also called to preach to the the needs of the people the people are going through their things are celebrating their good but they're going through a lot of questions and a lot of pain and a lot of uncertainties and and those come in all kinds of packages so the the benefit of being at a place the same place for 32 years is being shaped by the place as well as the place you shaping the place by the preaching and it helps inform my preaching and and the way I do what I do I got two more questions I want to ask you one is you're one of the preachers that some younger preachers will go to youtube and watch your clothes and then take your clothes and paste it on their sermon right yeah could you speak to that yeah you know whatever you do don't do that you know that that's the difference between someone whose priority is substance over style as opposed to someone whose priority is style over substance and a person's style is their style and the challenge for style is to find out what your own is and you get to do that by preaching all right but to kind of and I guess people are somebody else when they first get started because they're trying to figure out who they are too but it is a huge tragic mistake in preaching if you plan on doing it well and be an effective Amin faithful to take what you see and mimic it because that's not appreciative as I mentioned earlier I think that some people think that the key to preaching is the pulpit it's not it's what happens before so if you really want to benefit from somebody who you see is an effective preacher don't just take off something that's the exciting part and patch it on try to find out what happened before find out what they do before because I mean that's gravy that I didn't meet and people can't live off or or it's dessert and people can't live off dessert people like dessert but you can't live off of dessert and and I heard I don't know if it was ek Bailey or Ralph Wes it might have been he can't Benny who was talking about being kicked out of churches I think it was a kid Bailey and he was talking about how his sermons were going on earlier on with just hoops it was just you know ice it was just dessert and he said he was getting kicked out all these churches eventually as a pastor he said and he realized it was because he was feeding him so much dessert that they were getting hyperactive and they were talking about so so now any any any young preacher and someone new to the preaching who wants to be effective should focus on substance because if you're in the black church celebration is going to be a part of it you can learn how to do that but focus on substance and the people you pastor will really appreciate you and the ministry because it will be that part of it that will help them handle life better of course you know about the ph.d program in african-american preaching and sacred rhetoric I part of this interview is you know it's part of our Ministry of outreach to preachers everywhere so tell me some of you know your thoughts and reflections on on the on the PhD program and it can be anything you want to say about it it's um well I remember being a part of the group when you were developing it that you asked you invited to come in and get feedback from which I'd never heard anybody do before so let me know that you're really serious about it and how I am was and am really excited about such a program I don't know if it exists anywhere else in PhD level I've never heard of an existing so I'm excited about that because again those of us who love the craft of preaching and take it seriously would love to be in an environment where that happens at an academic level at other people who are just as passionate iron sharpens iron that can't they so to provide that environment I'm just excited about that and as I mentioned earlier to have you at the helm of it knowing how serious you are and how scholarly you are and how competent you are about and passionate about it as well so I'm hoping to be a part of the next group that you had that comes in but I think it is critical and I think it you you're on to something in the sense that if we want to and I know your goal is to prepare the next generation the impact the potential impact it can have and no doubt is already having on Christendom in general and certainly the black church in particular is exciting and I want to be a part of and I know others would want to be a part of it as well I know you have a cohort already of people who are some of the best communicators and the fact that they're some of the best communicators already and they want to be in this program and so I'm really excited about it and I'm excited not only about being a part of it but if I get in you know finishing it and pointing other people to this program whoo and also using a program as a goal for people who want to go to seminary and want to do a doctorate and one do a PhD and I want to take sacred rhetoric and preaching seriously so I'm really excited about and I think it is a game-changer I appreciate you so much you know since it since we first met that first time you did revival in my church upon a recommendation to all of our viewers this is funny I invited Kevin Cosby to come to three nights of revival and on Monday of some he called me up doc I can't make it but I can send you somebody and I said okay you can't make it I mean I tears out everything I got so you came and when you got through they were like Kevin who now I know you gonna watch it Kevin who so ever since though it's just the passion just the skill the passion you know for preaching and I really believe this I think that the sheer genius of african-american preaching can generate a preaching Renaissance to revive American Christianity in the 21st century man I agree with you totally I promise you I do we were talking earlier and you know when they talk about the death of preacher I remember when people were talking about that the death of preaching and I was time who you talking about in the black church it ain't dead anything you don't life support because it's always had a tradition of rich preaching I I know some people may have been exposed to bad preaching but there's bad something everywhere and whatever whatever professor Dhamma so and I think that I think you're absolutely right I think you're absolutely right because of the nature of black preaching as it relates to theology and theology from the bottom up and those kind of thing empowering theology preaching that is rooted in biblical theology up but also empowerment theology I also think it's important because of the place not only of scholarship and of substantive preaching but in black preaching what makes preaching effective is we get we have permission to be imaginative now imaginative without and not at the expense of truth or anything but but imaginative which helps elucidate the truth so we get to bring creativity to preaching and it's it's a it gives up its a pulse that adds to it so what's important in preaching becomes not just always what you say but even how you say what you say which enriches preaching and when you have that tradition and that and people are allowed to do that and you add that to substantive rooted and substance of theological ethical and social economic political issues we get to talk about it in a holistic you know preaching that's holistic prophetic priestly etc and then you're in that tradition and you know it then when you're around other preachers like that it provokes you to bring your best self to the preaching experience and so that's why this program is so and what I'm telling you man I I'm even more excited about now that's you that I'll talk to you and by the way when Kevin yeah I got a chance to come I had a great experience I took Kevin any time you can't go somewhere just call her brother I'll go we showed as I remember that it was like I mean cuz he had come to you before right right so this is the second time so they all anticipated baby when you got to figure out you bring both of y'all yeah that'll be fun yeah he's a he's a genius man he's a genius I just want to thank you for just the for the friendship across the years a relationship just the seriousness of the craft the level of preaching the level of people that's even deeper than the level of preaching that because that's what the previous for the bless people and thank you for taking the time and we just you know we don't I don't make any money on this we just put it out on YouTube and hoped it all over the globe people will and learn and you know because I really do believe that the genius the sheer genius of life preaching we need a preaching Renaissance to revive this American Christian and oh and every time you say American Christianity boy that opens up a whole nother conversation about it because you're absolutely right and I and without thinking well I think you're right and I think that if there's ever a time that there needs to be a renaissance guys is show enough now you know to revive and correct American Christianity some brands of America share and and it's gonna take some really good substance abour holistic preaching to do that by the way let me thank you as well for the opportunity to be here and to be on the list but also for the friendship as well and I mean the opportunity to preach I mean I went to when I went to new faith I mean that was a big church I don't know what you told me I'm in Proverbs little when it started but and I know that but when I went when you asked me to come for the festival of preaching there were acres of people there and I never seen that many people at a revival you know I was preaching a hand with a handful of people there so so the opportunity to come and to meet other I didn't grow up knowing a lot of preachers not the kind and that I got so I got to know it's good to meet some preach with some and connect with other people and then I got I don't I get to know people people got to know me because I got to I was preaching at new faith he preached in faith you know and then when you were at mr. bull 'var so you know my stock just keep going up whatever other gets to countries with it so but you didn't have to do that and you you were so generous with your ministry and it just reminds us that it is an hour we say it's our ministry but it really is ours it doesn't belong to us we're stewards of it and what we ought to do is use it to help others or call like we are you know like you've done for me and so many other people so thank you for that as well thank you for being a brother yeah and thank you sir I've enjoyed this man really it's been fun loving laughter so god bless you I look forward to years of working with you I look forward to being in the program you guys we talked about here we talked about [Music] you

Channel: Frank Thomas

Views: 11,496

Rating: 4.834197 out of 5

Keywords: F. Bruce Williams, Bates Memorial, PhD African American Preaching, Black Preaching, African American Preaching, Christian Theological Seminary, Frank A. Thomas, black homiletics, Phd Black Preaching, African American Homiletics, Bates Memorial Baptist Church

Id: Z01XvPdg5PE

Length: 66min 1sec (3961 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 26 2018