73. Biggest Fight in our Marriage

great card in here all right oh okay pour some alcohol I'm sure are you ready for this now I guess yeah not really sure to be honest oh crap oh crap crap like 30 minutes ago you're like is this a good idea that's more what I'm what I'm talking about here yeah I'm still wondering okay so this is like um could be like in a way I don't know this feels like it's a little chintzy to say this but in a way this is our most vulnerable podcast ever yeah in a way I mean it's fresh off the whatever newspaper shelves um are you awake over there yeah yeah okay here your volume is very low weather uh no I am I'll try to our weather to wake you up or what um okay wow how's that for an intro you're listening to the fight for together podcast [Music] so in today's episode of TMI we are going to be bringing you behind the scenes into our biggest longest ongoing fight slash conflict slash disturbance of our relationship of our relationship and like it's on it's an ongoing occurrence did you say that I think so in fact it's so ongoing that we're in the middle of it right now like we literally are starting recording this podcast half an hour late because we are having a quote-unquote two to five minute conversation is what Cami packaged it as um after dinner yeah that was about what almost an hour into it uh we talked for an hour probably and I'm saying why don't we just start recording the podcast and we can sort it out on the podcast because then we got a podcast done and we can also figure our [ __ ] out oh by the way did you see that did you see that comment as someone said that they stopped um listening when I called women [ __ ] oh no I didn't see that which I I do like to do that don't get me wrong um but yeah when I say [ __ ] I'm not referring to females exclusively I want to be clear on that I'm talking about males and females who are acting like a [ __ ] or who may be [ __ ] sure might not even be derogatory for you yeah it's more of a slang term that I just enjoy um um I mean you you know me like yeah and if people are gonna leave our podcast filled language like I get it but geez just so you know my language in person is you would find 10 times more offensive I really do try and tone it down um but you can only do so much you know for people yeah and it's like sometimes it's like all right you gotta go you gotta go yeah um true but yeah oh I love offensive language tell us about that so we don't have to talk about this other stuff yeah no that's all another episode um okay so where can I begin as far back as I can remember so Kim and I have been married for 22 years and yeah and I only remember this happening in our married life although who's to say um that didn't happen earlier um but this was basically the cycle and sing along if you know it can we um or or sing along button if you know if you have anything to say okay all right so and I'm gonna say it how we thought of it at the time okay this predominantly I feel like happened around sex in case you haven't noticed a theme in our life um but this was not limited to that so I would initiate and say like hey Cami you want to have sex AKA I want to have sex tonight or something and Cami would say no and then I would withdraw from her emotionally and physically and um this would go on because you felt hurt or disappointed disappointed well that's the Big Damn mystery Now isn't it I mean back then is that what we thought I don't remember all of what we thought I just remember beating myself up for it well let's tell the story and then we'll get into like more of the nuances but okay um so I would withdraw you would freak the [ __ ] out like you would come after me sometimes you would um try and initiate sex but you would like hit you would like this is when you like break things once right maybe I can remember well I I'm not even saying just hitting me you would hit things oh yeah you like slam doors you slam tables like and and I'm saying this because you don't do this any other time you're not like a hitty person in these moments God damn yeah trigger something really extreme and painful Within Me yeah and um you would like I would go sleep in my office and you would say come up to the bedroom please and as we kind of said in last week's podcast um man I just remembered this comment I gotta read this comment because I really like it and it was on my mind and it was it kind of has to do with the swearing thing um okay yeah so this um [ __ ] named sorello yeah I'm male or female [ __ ] um says glad you're back with the TMI makes the most fascinating thought-provoking conversations what I love is like half the time you talk I'm often not bought in and kind of triggered slash indignant but I love that I'm always surprised where you take it and the lessons you draw from it I always have trouble disagreeing with you in the end God damn I love that comment because like you know that's kind of says more about them than it yeah like that they can stick with yeah they can stick with it long enough feeling that way like if you feel what did they say like indignant yeah triggered slash indignant which triggered is actually a very I think often mature word to use because it um yeah it is yeah it insinuates that the um drama is coming from something that's inside of them yeah and is just being in fact triggered by our conversation but the problem isn't our conversation so yeah anyways I love that and I was thinking about that as I was saying that I withdraw because I feel like this is a very similar story and this person might have a similar response to this type of podcast where the way we tell the story you know we're talking about 20 to 22 years of maturity here yeah and when I hear the first part of the story and what we were trying to figure out this time was really it's triggering to me even um and it kind of makes me pissed off now for different reasons but I think if you stick with the story you'll see the evolution um I think I think everyone uh oh not everyone but a lot of people could learn something not by how we model life but just you might find yourself in pieces of us and basically you you and I were just saying before this podcast sorry we've never heard this talked about online this this same thing no it's pretty weird because it's got to be out there like our specific brand or just like it needs to be but oh just like the cycles that couples or intimate Partners go through because yeah in this type of dynamic right I well and I it's that's something I've been really frustrated with we got it we gotta get into it so people know what the heck we're talking about okay so um I would Cami would deny me sex or something like that and then I would uh like somebody way to put it well yeah like I would just say no I don't want to have it but you could go have sex somewhere else I guess I wasn't denying you sex somewhere else I mean even with yourself but back then we didn't believe it all those things that was not an option back then right because we were religious and we believe masturbation was wrong porn was wrong certainly sex with other people was wrong so now it was I know I I mean I know that but they might not know that so I just wanted to clarify oh wait so do you not agree with denying me sex is accurate with me yeah oh yeah I guess with me I was yeah denying you sex with me yes yes accurate I mean these are the feelings um yep okay uh moving on um uh where are my Cami would deny me sex and then I would withdraw and then she would come after me and then this is when we had like awesome makeup sex to solved the problem for at least like an hour sometimes even two or three hours or I feel like the cycle will last like days like at least maybe weeks yeah I'm kind of being facetious but um but really like it was very uh very um temporary solution is my point yeah yeah and then we would do this again and sometimes this would last a week sometimes this would happen once a month sometimes it would happen maybe three or four months there'd be a gap but it always happened right and count on it like the rising of the Sun oh well I didn't have anything to say at the moment um and in this time period by the way we are in the church which for us meant that most people in marriages in the church in our experience they don't talk about their problems we didn't we sure as heck didn't we never saw anyone else talking about their problems so when you have problems like this it felt like we were really like broken or um and alone and alone and like no one else had this problem and we were like really [ __ ] up for having it and I predominantly blamed myself because the way I use a language very intentionally that we thought okay Cami is um like not able to have sex or not interested or whatever um and it wasn't always just sex like intercourse sometimes these are like just sexual advances or just like romantic moves um and and then I'm basically being a big fat [ __ ] [ __ ] about it a male [ __ ] if I identifies my own um I'm being a baby about it we wouldn't have used the word [ __ ] back down we would use the word I feel like I was being a baby and being really Petty and I'm like um punishing her somewhat involuntarily it this felt really out of my control I guess I need to say two back then like I wasn't the the more the the for the more years that went on and then the more number of ways I attacked this problem which somewhere around that I got involved in 12 step groups and I started processing feelings and talking about things which helped tremendously I got a sponsor slash Mentor that I was able to talk about these things with and we approached it from an addiction perspective and I thought okay maybe it's that I'm addicted to sex and I'm putting this on Cami and I just need to process my feelings instead so I went through years and years of doing that and then we got into therapy and I've talked to multiple therapists about this um who had different solutions and none of it I don't want to say it didn't help at all but none of it solved it we 20 years later we still had this phenomenon occur um yeah and I call it a phenomenon because the the further we got into our marriage the more mature I got and like uh self-aware I got and I had worked on all these [ __ ] issues in my parenting and our marriage and a lot of [ __ ] just went away I mean like very dramatically shifted like the way we parented the anger I had towards kids my feelings of Shame around myself and my children or the way our our relationship really has evolved in crazy ways but in this one area it wasn't really that different not com yeah compared to other parts of our life other parts of ourselves it feels like this has evolved the slowest it's just like what the hell is going on it's sometimes I wanna ask the universe so um enter in um 2023 and this is about two months ago um and I have this like Insight which may or may not have been psychedelically inspired um and okay it was mushrooms uh you talked me into telling you um unless this is the US government in which case all names and details are fictional mushrooms what mushrooms I cook with them um and all of a sudden I I'm in my office alone and we're actually in the middle of one of these Cycles and I am like I just have this insight and it was very simple but it was like I'm depressed [Music] and I need to tell you why this was in fact an Insight um because I have never considered myself people are like depressed I'm like depressed what like stop being a [ __ ] baby like get [ __ ] done I get [ __ ] done I mean I was raised in a Christian Asian family so we didn't have [ __ ] feelings like that wasn't you know something let alone depression touches yeah Beyond a feeling it's like something else we believed in math and God's word and getting [ __ ] done and I went to like I did not miss a day of school for being sick um ever like I just went um because I was like you know if you believe you're well you just go and into our marriage I always felt like everything was my choice it should be I should be in my control if I want to love my wife I should love my wife if I'm not loving my wife or making her feel pursued or desired or loved or whatever words we would have used back then it's my fault and it's my choice and I could change that I can make the decision to love her better or show tell her I appreciate her all these things but what started to happen and and we saw this cycle pan out in um our community our Christian Community that imploded I would say what five six seven years ago now um yeah I guess and we were involved in these dynamics that it took a therapist and a lot of years of therapy to help us disentangle ourselves from where basically we had money and influence and vision and energy and a lot of loneliness so we built an entire Community around us funding supporting pouring into people creating events and it all revolved around our energy and we know this because with our therapist suggestion when we finally stopped providing the energy when we said we're no longer going to host but we would love it if anyone else hosted the entire thing imploded and just flat out vaporized it disappeared and that's when we were like oh I guess that was all there because we were just not willing to stop well not just that we created the whole thing based off of our own energy we didn't match energy with anyone like all the people that were attracted to us uh didn't have the energy like they wanted to like suck from art it yeah that's true and I guess to pause there for a second because that's a really important theme um we were hosting events and inviting people to like you know at one point it's like five nights a week at our house we're hosting stuff and people wouldn't host us the same way and when that happened I would always kind of make excuses for them I'd be like oh well I'm sure they would if they had more money or I'm sure they care about us they just like you know it's just easier to do it at our house I had all these reasons why they weren't doing it they have small kids and then I think back when we had small kids I'm like we were doing that [ __ ] back then even yeah so I think we were filling some void or something but anyways I read this our our therapist gave us this magazine I think it was like Psychology today or something and there was this article and the mom talks about writing a letter to her daughter and um the daughter doesn't write back and this is like ask a therapist or the therapist is interpreting these actions and he said no response is a response yeah so the mom was like oh she must have been busy she forgot to write back uh so I'll contact her again and the therapist said like no if someone doesn't respond to you listen to that listen to the space listen to the void and I never listened if I invited people to 10 things and they didn't invite me to any I was like I would make up an excuse for them yeah or for myself rather instead of you interpreted it in the way that was the most useful for you at the time yeah but it was fictional it was make believe right but you needed them to have that excuse evidently you made up in your mind instead of asking the question why aren't they inviting us to something maybe and there's a lot of reasons yeah which aren't bad but they're just true and are very hard to accept what if they don't care about the relationship as much as we do what if they don't need us as much as we want them to or they don't value the relationship as much as we value the relationship right um and none of these are moral things they're just like hard truths when you so when we stopped inviting people I was like okay cool all the invitations Are Gonna Come it's like crickets and it's like ooh ouch that was a hard truth but I would say our healing from that system started then when we started listening to that truth and instead of instead of continually inviting people to fill every gap of our life we just dealt with that loneliness right which we had never never faced because we're filling it with Church community [ __ ] right and then shortly after that we're getting like kicked out of all the like Church community stuff anyways so then it was like the decision was sort of made for us and in a way but then and then it just like catapulted us out of that Christian world and then all of a sudden we had all this like resources that kind of helped me at least understand parts of who parts of why I even get in that cycle to begin with OR like attachment stuff I had never heard about in the church like you know attachment attachment what you should be attached to God that's it okay so the reason why I went down that whole Rabbit Trail of talking about listening to the silence and allowing space was in our own relationship I started to come to grips with the fact you were reading these books on attachment style and you'd come to me and be like oh we have different attachment Styles and I'm like I don't know what that means but seemed really important to you but in the midst of all this language and healing and learning it's obvious for the last three years that in our romantic I I would call it romantic not sexual although I would include some of the sexuality into the romance of our relationship I have provided what feels like to me eighty percent of the energy to get where we are today hmm did that start in your childhood do you remember like even if like a teenager like bringing all the energy to like your relationships friendships yeah yeah yeah all I remember was that like you know in in high school I probably wrote like she feel like it was like four or 500 letters or something like that I always wrote back I was never the last person to get a letter with probably like 40 different people oh yeah I had 40 from pen pals most of them girls um because they were the only ones that would write back um I the one that wrote back the least feel like Lucy Spyro actually wrote back less than you oh okay but you were up there in the for who I cared about you definitely wrote back the least and then you went after me it was always kind of like the girls that were like right back that are the ones that like I didn't want right back necessarily like the ones that were bringing you're like okay my energy and your energy that's too much energy we need to I need to go after the person well no it was never too much well I just for me I guess I'm making a point I wonder if you were more attracted to someone who gave less energy because often we're attracted to opposites yeah that could be true I guess but [ __ ] I was not thinking that way then well yeah of course not um but I would always write back and like my friends I was always available for my friends much more than they were for me oh yeah it seemed like and I'm not I want to be clear I'm not trying to make a sound like I'm as a good person I think I was really lonely well you're really lonely and you maybe had a really high need for connection I say hi because May was higher than like the average person or something like what did the therapist say exaggerated need for intimacy exaggerated desire for intimacy or something like that or I thought I thought it was need but um yeah yeah um okay so where the hell was I uh uh ever yes in our relationship I'm providing 80 of the Romantic moves and this is from I mean you could go back to the good old days when I was writing letters you weren't writing me back yeah I was interested in you you weren't interested in me um then we get married so I'm well even before marriage you know we're talking about our secrets and and you have these like deep dark secrets uh of like like your youth pastor [ __ ] and I'm like pulling the [ __ ] out of you like you're like a clam you won't like open up and I'm like digging for these secrets like using all this energy to try and like get to know you and coming after you like and you're not doing that to me I don't think [Music] um then we get married so like nine out of ten well actually not nine ten 99 out of 100 sexual initiation things are me and you know we could talk about trauma and there's all these different reasons for that but let's just not for now uh and like now you did the one thing I remember you initiating was Date Night like oh in Kirkland to just the concept of it of getting Child Care yeah okay um besides that though like any trips like if we go to Hawaii if there's like a birthday if there's a surprise if there's an anniversary like I planned all that stuff yeah um and that was just like you know kind of like what we shared last week we had these different roles and it was just kind of like it's kind of like okay if it ain't broke don't fix it like I was happy I wasn't complaining it was just like that's just like what I did and you like you know you were providing a lot of care for the kids at this time and you know doing other [ __ ] you're busy you're going to school you're cleaning the house you're you know there's it seemed Fair like I was happy hmm it felt like I thought I was yeah but you know come to find out in therapy sometimes [ __ ] uh works great for a time period but then the longer you go you start to see the cracks in it if it's not built on a solid foundation or if you're evolving as a person then often the things that used to work start not working anymore that maybe were built in your childhood or patterns yeah and so I think what I started to conclude was that I wasn't withdrawing on purpose I wasn't trying to teach you a lesson I was actually there and there's two ways to put it out of energy romantic energy initiative energy and or I was depressed in that way at least and by depressed what I mean is you know I I don't want to use that word in a diagnostic sense like in a medical sense because I don't give a [ __ ] about that but um not to Discount the people that deal with that I just I'm not in that world and I I'm not going to pursue a diagnosis but when someone says they're depressed I have sympathy for them because I assume you you have a hard time getting out of the bed out of the morning or getting [ __ ] done or whatever it is but it's not optional like you have this I've heard people describe it like you have this wet blanket over you or this huge weight or it's so hard to get motivation or to get up it's just you can try and try and try you can you know listen to it and all the podcasts you want everything's in black and white like all the things that you would normally enjoy you don't yes it's uphill it's it's um it's not optional is the point yeah and all I know is like I get in these places where I I [ __ ] show up for our relationship I feel like 110 I'll plan the day it's all by the gifts you know I have all this energy and I've done this pretty much non-stop for 22 years um until I can't and I hit this like wall and this is actually very similar to a lot of my personality um with other areas of life also where I Vlog and I vlogged every day five days a week for five years and then I stopped you know I lose motivation um and it's not to say I don't think I I lack um what's the word like uh I could stick with projects or whatever um but when I stopped believing in something or when I well you almost stick to projects to a fault like before like like maybe you're you shouldn't like maybe it should sure like but when I quit I quit you know like oh yeah a lot of people are like oh why don't you do Blackjack and I'm like oh you know I had a blackjack for 10 years and when I was done I was like done no that's true you move on quick same thing with the business World once I figured out oh you can make money you can make a million dollars a year I was like cool I'm done like I I didn't want it I didn't like it yeah I was like peace out uh and I haven't looked back you know um anyhow in our relationship I feel like consistently day in day out I was like initiating I was providing the energy I was like Hey Cami what do you want to do for date night hey Cami like you want to read these books hey Cami let's go to therapy hey Cami and and um it's not to say you didn't you weren't bringing your effort but or you didn't care it wasn't like that at all but you couldn't keep up with me um I could probably can't even keep up with some especially back then like someone who was given 50 let alone 110. so anyways then something would happen oftentimes it came in the form of me initiating sex or getting denied or getting turned down in some way that I I didn't feel valued or something like that and instead of the new interpretation for me was instead of me just withdrawing and trying to punish you or be Petty about that circumstance I started to see that that circumstance triggered some awareness in me that like hey dude you're investing too much in this relationship you're over investing you're over extending yourself yeah and and just like we learned in community um not that it's like bad or something but it's unsustainable if one partner or one friend is putting in Eighty percent of the energy and one partner's put in 20. like it's not the type of friendship I wanted to have with you it's not the type of romance I want to have with you it's not the type of marriage um and I used to have a very high tolerance for those types of friendships now I don't if I if someone's like not really willing to invest that much I'm like no except for with me yeah I let some Riff Raff filter through but um so I'm a lot more but that's health for me yeah is to not be involved in relationships where I was basically functioning as the parent and they were functioning as the child I was just gonna say the only relationship that that would be appropriate in I guess is um a parrot child one with a child's like still actually a child or I was thinking like what a teacher student do teachers put more effort than students no I hope not I don't think so actually okay I think I think the best teaching happens when teachers lay out expectations and then and kids put in they put in a different kind of effort like they're going to show up to class right they're going to do their homework or they're going to be curious as to what the teacher is saying they don't have the they don't put the same kind of effort in yeah but if a teach if it if a teacher cares a ton and a student doesn't care at all yeah I think it's really um not helpful for the teacher to continue to try and force a child to learn yeah or care about a relationship right that's my personal stance right um either way so then I started to see like okay there's kind of just a new script for this 22 year old narrative that I've always invested too much but instead of feeling like a hero for doing that I started to ask this question which is like just like with the community why am I always investing so much romantically and like I haven't got a lot down that road I think that I'm scared of the space um and I think it's easier for me just to fill it with something and instead of waiting for you to do it which sounds risky just I can do it like hey let's go on a date and let's be together never mind that it's always me initiating that [Music] and we've experienced I think this is where maybe there's some overlap from last week's Vlog episode about just talking about when you we've when I've stepped back and become more aware of why I'm filling in the space and more um you know I can't emphasize enough I had a lot of Shame around this dynamic because I thought I could fix this I should be able to fix this I I don't I don't want to punish you I don't want to be a baby I don't want to be a petty [ __ ] or like just retributive like or like just trying to teach you a lesson or you know because here's the thing we haven't really got into when I would withdraw you would feel so much pain do you want to get into that why not uh yeah I guess um it's a little fresh today but uh well I'm still trying to unpack that after 22 years really the only the last three years I feel like I'm starting to like get insights into myself and why I have such a strong reaction to you losing energy but really it's just a shift in Behavior I sense a shift in behavior in you and then I um my nervous system like goes into fight or flight uh and yeah I don't fully know to be honest like I don't really know I just think that I I I just have I must have had enough experiences as a child where this feels familiar to me and so my body's just like oh yeah this is unsafe you should like run or fight or something um but it's really only been in the last few years that I've been able to recognize that and I have the resources to even know how to calm myself down um and try to get to whatever stable nervous system state is can I say this like one of the things that's been really helpful for us is to understand it's Eden is to understand that okay using my side of the example when I'm like chugging along giving 110 and then I get triggered by you know you would like say no to sex or something like that and [Music] yeah go for it what's up you want to hear the podcast live you didn't can't get enough of it no she's like I just live here um uh I used to take it out on you I'd be like oh if Cami just um said yes to sex more or whatever my initiative if she initiated more in fact that's what we thought the problem was for a long time then then all of this would go away for me oh right and you thought on your side if Ben didn't um withdraw I wouldn't have this thing this I wouldn't have to freak out you're just freaking out because I'm being an [ __ ] right come to find out my [ __ ] was there I was this type of person with or without you with or without the sex with or without the initiation that was just the thing that was bringing it to the surface yeah was I didn't allow space in relationships and my work in the last year or two has been to allow that type of space which has been scary for me yeah for other people it's scary to plan a day for me it's scary to not plan a day yeah right yeah and on the flip side yeah you have whatever [ __ ] issue we don't know what to call it or whatever I mean we have all these words it's attachment probably like attachment insecurity like insecure attachment but you I get so frustrated because you keep on blaming me and you keep on saying like why are you withdrawn and I'm like dude I can't I think I called you a [ __ ] last week probably I'm just so used to it but you don't identify as female do you so it's not technically like oh whatever yeah sure so um but like um because I just wanted to call you [ __ ] again but I didn't because I'm like oh so someone's gonna get someone stop listening um but uh what the [ __ ] was I saying uh uh oh you blame me and you're like why are you withdrawing and I'm like [ __ ] I can't I couldn't help yourself I can't um I don't have any energy to keep on going right now I need a break I'm I'm depressed and I'm not just trying to get sympathy because for me admitting depression in this area or or lack of motivation or lack of ability or I'm just too tired and exhausted to carry on this way anymore uh sounds like defeat um it does not it's not taking the easy way out for me I'm not trying to create a victim out of myself like that being a victim is far more scary hey um can you uh go back over the house and we'll come over when we're done sorry sorry can you go you can go play something with flia okay what do you mean um sure that's fine no no not much something um like a movie no you can play with flea that's it okay all right that's okay laughs um you would treat it as if I was making a choice or like a because of the pain you're going through I think you would look around and be like I need to find someone to blame for this pain and of course I'm the obvious answer because one day I'm like swooning all over you and the next day I'm not but to put it in a little bit of like uh to paint a picture of what goes on here because this is what's happening we're in the middle of this right now um so every day I'm like making all these [ __ ] moves on you like and we we're pretty sappy I would say and by we I would mean me uh I have I've stepped it up a little you have but we've not like we're like naked a lot we're like you know we live in the same house and we work in the same house there's a lot of touch points throughout the day and evening where we're affectionate we talk a lot like there's just a lot of connection points and we cuddle we're naked we're you know just flirting there's a lot of that it's very normal for us [Music] and when I hit this point I don't feel like doing hardly any of that and if Cami initiates it I'll like do it but I'm not like excited by it yeah it's hard for me like I mean using the word that you use like just the World Turns kind of black and white for me and I just feel like kind of I feel like I need like CPR or something um so but I'm still like I guess the picture I'm trying to paint is all that romance romance sexual stuff kind of evaporates and we become kind of like roommates like we sleep in the same bed but normally where I'd like hold her all night long literally I'm not we're not even like touching um well we used to not touch but now I feel like I I touched you last night you did well just like I cuddled my body up next to your body but I didn't hold you but maybe I only point that out because I used to be like get the [ __ ] away from me yeah we'd wear clothes well the other thing I wanted to say too is as I'm trying to learn about myself is I've read that for a nervous for someone who has gone through trauma or their like nervous system is not at a stable State um it could just be a certain moment or whatever but neutral cues are seen as um threatening so if it's not so I wonder for me like if you're you're giving me neutral cues for for someone else would just be like uh he's just whatever but for me I'm like why are you being so mean yeah because I'm not I'm not doing mean [ __ ] in fact no I actually used to early on because like you know I remember like pushing you or I'd like I don't think I ever like pinched you but I do weird stuff like that because this is before uh 12 star groups I didn't have language to say I was hurt or disappointed or sad so I would just like do physical things I feel like you did this kind of recently but you don't do this very much anymore but you would do this thing where you would like hug me and then just like squeeze me like a little too tight like I'm like whoa there [ __ ] well I'm letting you know hey I I'm letting you know this is not a romantic hug like because I don't oh right I think no it's like it's like you have this like energy that maybe could get out in a different way if you like talked about your feelings maybe I don't know maybe not but it's sort of like you know when people have to punch the pillow you know you're probably just like I don't know it or maybe you're just trying here's what's weird too um so I'm ready to move towards the solution that we've found yeah let's do it which I don't even think we agree with evidently I don't know I don't we didn't agree two hours ago yeah yeah but like hard basically like what I've concluded I've stopped beating myself up and just saying like hey Ben it's okay sometimes you need space you can't provide this romantic energy and like that's okay and for the most part I feel like you agree with me except we're for when you're in fight or flight which can last up to three to seven days sometimes we're feeling [ __ ] or I can still I didn't tell you if it just said that's okay or I'm just still feeling the like Sting of how pain how much pain I was in so then I'm just like I don't know if this is the right I you know I think for me it's just it's hard because I maybe I'm afraid that the solution just won't work for me uh yeah who the hell knows I mean we it's untested in a way um but where was I I lost solution uh uh oh okay so for me I've accepted hey I'm not gonna be able to show up to this relationship and initiate Romance for certain time periods and Cami used to interpret that as I don't want romance so she would take a break too when in reality it's kind of weird but what I'm looking for I felt overextended in the relationship yeah and there's two ways to deal with that one is I pull back but the other is I think for you to step up and I I feel like just intuitively or on the subconscious level I feel like I needed to see more skin in the game from you um like a lot of these things because just because I'm um I'm compulsively driven to do these romantic gestures doesn't mean that they don't entail risk and especially when I got denied that's when I would feel like oh [ __ ] like this is really risky all these things I'm doing yeah and that's when I'd kind of like have do a little self-auditing thing and be like man you're really over invested here and I would kind of like want you to invest which isn't fair to put on you I mean I think it is fair to have a desire and to want that but I don't expect that of you and I don't think you have to but also our relationship might not be functioning at the same romantic level what's weird just like um going back to the community conversation we had this community it was [ __ ] rocking I mean it was like 10 out of 10 fun you know we're right we're like living life we're five nights a week where there's parties in our house or hanging with those people yeah it's [ __ ] great and then we got [ __ ] healthy in therapy and we're like Okay We're not gonna be funny in this whole operation emotionally and financially yeah and it vanished yeah and it's easy to think like oh we [ __ ] up in fact that's what we got accused of and um that's how we felt for a while but in the long run we could see like oh that thing was going to implode anyways and we're much healthier now yeah and the the relationships that we have I would consider we're just in a better spot and I I don't we're even attracting people that can bring more energy to the table like we can so while I'm thankful for those good old days and I appreciate them I do not miss them I do not want them back now in our relationship we've had this [ __ ] banging romance where we're like you know on fire and but health for us might be ratcheting it down if I'm the one providing the energy so this is where there's this big question and I asked you before the cruise I was like I don't know what you're willing to risk like it's hard for me to admit that sometimes and it's scary but like even the last three days like so I don't even know yeah and if I'm not willing to do it anymore and if you're not all I know is our relationship will probably look different now what I believe if if our past has any bearing on this is that it'll be better like it'll be Evolution yeah um you know it's always like forward in a way but I really enjoy the romance and I hope that you like take more risks and initiate more which you know like as we talked about last week a lot what that process has looked like in terms of Cami coming in touch with her own desires for the first time where she really wasn't in touch or aware that you even had desires for multiple decades even before I knew you yeah so you can imagine like you can start to put some pieces together as to this was a we were set up for this yeah totally so many ways so I don't know I was thinking maybe you could walk through these cards and what they mean to you okay not because it's like the solution but yeah it's where we arrived at the latest solution and yeah and I will say like when things aren't so like fresh for me pain wise trigger-wise uh these cards make a lot more sense to me um so I do feel like a lot of it has to do with like where I'm at emotionally uh which matters because these are the cards I pull out when I'm in that emotion but I'm just wondering if yeah anyways um don't oh well and I wonder why like I wonder if there's if this actually feels unsafe for me to even pull these cards out because I don't know anyway so the origin of these is that you know after 20 years of dealing with this yeah I go through these we'll call them depressive States withdrawal states and and Cami says oh you don't want me to initiate so I'm not going to say I'm like no no that's not true it's not that I don't want to it's just that I don't have the ability to respond in these times and in these times you don't have to but I would love it if you would come after me or step it up and like you maintain the romance for a change in our relationship and it's not to say like I'm not [ __ ] on you like you maintain so many other parts of our friendship and family yeah I'm we're really talking about one very specific aspect of our relationship I think yeah I think but I said this is so I had this like fit of inspiration and I just wrote it down I was like you know I'm going to give this to you because this is I can't really communicate when I'm in this like depressed state very well you're like what do you how are you I'm like fine that's because I am really in a way I'm like not angry but I said this is if you want to know how to help me this is how you can help me yeah um okay when I feel a shift from Ben and this triggers a full body response remember he gets tired and worn out sometimes and is not able to come after you this is not mean he doesn't like you or want to be close to you wait are you gonna explain these at all oh I mean each of these cards represents oh maybe we've talked about already but yeah he gets tired worn out well it's just he's not able to come after you so this is supposed to like help me remember why he's behaving the way he's behaving because otherwise I fill in the gaps with he I did something wrong he doesn't like me he's protecting himself he's guarded uh uh yeah I'm like trying to teach you a lesson yeah yeah um so yeah this does not mean he doesn't like you or want to be close to you so this is supposed to like combat what I will would naturally just feel in these states like oh he doesn't like me look look how he's behaving he doesn't want to be close to me well because you get any states where you're like this is over well I didn't this time I know gold star but yeah historically I am ready to throw in the towel I'm just like why are we together like this is and this was especially really painful for me when I when I would be pregnant this is just a little side note dude that was [ __ ] rough because I remember just being like I'm I wanna leave and I am stuck with a baby inside of me that's his and mine and yeah that was rough anyways that's not gonna happen anymore um speaking of babies he has been married to you for 22 years made six babies with you and you are his favorite lover and best friend so this is supposed to help me reframe like how you actually feel towards me it's not indifferent even though the signals your I pick up from you whether it's true it's I guess it's not true it's not true but what I'm picking up is like oh he doesn't like he doesn't care we have this like if you were to like graph out 365 days a year let's just say there's 300 and 130 of them where I'm like on fire after you like madly in love getting along pursuing you planning [ __ ] and then there's the 35 where I'm not or I would surprise less than that okay cool but whatever and that 35 or 20 or whatever it is yeah you forget about those other like the meaning and value of those other 330 you know out the window for you yes do you know I thought to this time though I was like this will be over this will not last forever that's cool even though I felt like I did there was some little like Bell in my head but for me I'm like [ __ ] I've been like we've done like the craziest [ __ ] together and like I've done all this stuff and like well I thought I had that actually one day I can't do it and you're like oh yeah and I was like wait how could this just like be over that doesn't make sense wow that's [ __ ] insightful I like it yeah you have a lot of power and can choose if you want to invest into the Romantic relationship um this is pretty key because it's really important because historically and I would say even to this day especially when I get in those modes I don't think I have a lot of power I have been a very disempowered person historically um and so just to remember like the balls in your court do you want to throw it or not um and it's actually a choice even though it doesn't feel like a choice a lot of times um I believe it is I think I can probably set myself up in certain ways for that choice to be more evident but um but this is a tough one for me too because I just like I immediately just like go to sex and I'm like I don't want to have sex right now and it's really hard for me to think can I pause and go back once about other ways I could connect with you because before we get into practical what to do I can't emphasize enough you would literally say when are you gonna snap out of this and come after me again yeah as if all the power isn't your hand as if this problem is not going to get solved until I come after you right and it took me a long time to realize I don't want that I don't want to be the only one that comes after you yeah so I'm like when are you coming after me otherwise let's get used to this space because I don't want to do it anymore but that was so you know we've used the phrase parent child the parent-child dynamic can occur in peers or spouses in certain aspects I think we had a parent child Dynamic yeah in this romance where you're like I can't do it he's the only one capable and I'm right well and I just want to pause for a moment and tell myself that I am making progress because these last couple days that we've been in this like cycle thing um look different than the last time like I I didn't completely isolate myself I like kept checking in with myself and was like what can I do and then I would do these things which granted you were like uh okay that's cute but but whatever but still like from my vantage point from I guess if you're just talking about me you know not you um I've really come a long way to even be able to like do that I completely agree with you and I and I say it's cute not because it's not significant but because it doesn't have the impact on me of what I'm asking for but maybe it's the step in the that direction though totally so then after that to invest in their match relationship there's practical tips pulling Ben aside and saying I have felt a shift with you and your energy for some reason I want to like do a robot I have felt a shift with you and your energy I want you to know that I love you and want to connect with you okay so I could say that uh whatever feels super risky which you don't me this is what I did a version of this now oh what today is like hey I think I can sense things have I had I did do something I did do something along at least the first line the first line that says okay can I tell you where it's where it's not that okay sure this explicitly says I want you to know that I love you and I want to connect with you no I didn't do that part I did the first one I did the first line yes but that's a whole thing yeah yeah okay okay and and that's important because you have this way of putting it back on me and you're like once again I'm I'm trying to see are you willing to take a risk here and your um sometimes when you just ask people questions about them you're still making them take the risk yeah that's true yeah that's true okay whatever feels super risky to me at the time I.E giving him a hug this probably doesn't feel risky to him so try to go one to two steps further um which that's tough for me in those moments to even maybe it's because of where I'm at with the my nervous system but it's hard to be creative during those times it's like feels like a lot for me to even come up with okay I could hug um so well we talked about potential reasons for this right before coming on this podcast which like I said in my experience with you you are so responsive to external stimuli if you hug me and if I don't like appear enthusiastic you're like I'm done this is over yeah you're like I'm not like well I'm like I'm with a hater sensitive to like energy I think and and granted maybe I'm reading your energy totally wrong especially it wouldn't be a surprise um but like yeah you're a hater I'm not giving you any more of my hugs well you're you're there's something that's accurate which is my energy in that way is very depleted or down or negative or whatever you want to call it but it's like okay so are you only gonna love me romantically when I'm [ __ ] fantastic like yeah I mean ultimately I feel like and and this is what I feel like I've done with you and what I want to do with you and I'm just asking for the return it's like dude when you're down and when you can't tell like I remember like um and I told the story recently I mean even on this podcast but you know when you were um in your teens and you were um you were dealing with this sexual abuse stuff I'd ask you like how's it going you're like fine but I knew it wasn't fine yeah and I was like what do you mean fine and you're like oh everything's fine I'm like are you sure like something and I would like dig and I would ask you well but with that it was very clear that that wasn't about you and I think for me because these things get triggered around like me telling you I don't want to do that like I don't want to have sex or whatever yeah I like think that you're doing it because I'm didn't give you the thing or something but it is doing us an incredible disservice I think when you make it about you right so if I can somehow make that shift another thought I had was like I wonder if I actually have a if I get into like a shame cycle where as soon as I feel a shift I think it's I'm doing something I did something wrong I deserve this and then that shame cycle I mean shame does [ __ ] crazy [ __ ] to people like it immobilizes people it makes them do things that they you know wouldn't normally do yeah so anyways I just wonder if that's like also this is something I was trying to I forget if I brought him the point from earlier but when I was just pointing out that my stuff existed before you and your stuff existed before me and we just trigger the [ __ ] out of each other in a certain way yeah but a lot of the marital disagreements out there I have a feeling have nothing to do with the other person like but you're reminding someone of a situation or an insecurity or a fear or whatever that has nothing to do with you it existed way before you and it it might get triggered by you but if you're not the problem you're also not the solution and you know um I don't know I think when we have our egos involved it becomes so damn complicated and and um if we can just see we're all hurting people we actually want the same thing where it's not me against you I'm not trying to hurt you and you're not trying to hurt me um that's been so helpful for us yeah talk about having sex earlier than 2 A.M that was the last thing because Ben has told me a lot of times that he does way better if I can which totally makes sense to me actually I think I'm the same way it basically is like foreplay like if you don't do anything to in foreplay I think can be a lot of things that aren't just sex by the way sexual things but like if you like don't say anything and then all of a sudden at 1 30 a.m you're like let's have sex you know and the whole damn day it was like crickets I know it's like you're like you're like I'm gonna sleep which I can appreciate uh you wanted to go to sleep but I actually don't want to go to sleep I just get pissed that you like I feel like you cut it off yeah and I'm like is this not work anyways don't get them started all right uh connection props these are I might use one or two of these tonight um okay I even wrote these things out for you Cami this is I need a fan about this okay because Cammy comes to me today and she's like I'm this is so confusing I do not know what's going on and that that's every damn time that's what she says and I'm like okay you know those cards I wrote out for you and I wrote them I told you they wrote them yeah I wrote it on an email and then I said get this tattooed on your forearm because it actually was a lot of work for me to write this out like it like on the vulnerability side of things yeah and um and we've been in the cycle three times and I always ask you and you're like oh yeah I didn't look at the car three times since we got the cards yeah and then you look at the cards and you're like yeah oh I'm like when I feel a ship from Ben and this trigger and by the way this is just if you want to do this you don't have to do any of it I'm not telling you you're a bad person I'm just saying like these are things that would help me and yeah tell me you're not we can take a break too all right uh connection prompts I want to go on a date with you to blink I want to go to Starbucks with you let's go to blank I want to [ __ ] you tonight ask a lot of questions be curious dig keep digging don't stop don't give up because you'll be like how's it going I'd be like fine you're like okay cool okay now okay cool I'll just like that's enough for it in today yeah say I miss you I want you I don't know what's going on but I'm willing to do whatever it takes to be close oh hold your hand right now dude this is not very exciting you're not very excited so never mind I said I should sell these and cards for like 500 bucks I don't know if anyone would buy them but [ __ ] I would have bought them uh I would have hit a million not that they're doing anything now evidently either but right maybe that's maybe that's not true maybe they're helping um all right so that's our in process TMI couples therapy [ __ ] that we're in the middle of that we've been in the middle of that's been a massive source of pain and struggle and confusion but also you know I I don't really believe that you get to choose if you have pain or um especially if you want growth you don't get to choose pain like if if you have it but you get to choose where you have it and I feel like we've made progress um in this area and it's been like a worthwhile type of pain uh but it's painful like we have these nights where man it's icy and that bad and not just because it's 25 degrees outside um and it hurts it's hard um you know we have this way of relating and but I think whatever uh I just have this firm belief that whatever lies on the other side of progress and growth is better that it's worth it to like go through the change and kind of like abort the old way of doing things because sometimes it's just like well [ __ ] it why not like just if it works like go with it but I see these couples that have like been doing the same thing for 40 years yeah oh my God I feel like I think that kills a relationship doing us a disservice to just like decide oh it's not just keep if it's not broken but I've I have I have felt like it's broken or I have felt like it's it's not working the same way it used to so why um why keep at it like at a certain point it works and then the thing that was working can actually start um hurting you like you know like when you grow like this something like if you put a metal band around a tree it couldn't like be propping it up one day and the next day it's choking it and it's the same thing and yeah I don't know it's um yeah it's been a wild ride I don't know what else to say after all that life's a [ __ ] [Laughter] this has been okay and I had a lot of Shame around this for a lot of years and I guess you know that's the one thing maybe I'll say is like this was so much of our life this is consumed so much of our energy and our kids would suffer other people would suffer because when I didn't have motivation sometimes I didn't want to get out of bed and I didn't want to I couldn't get work done you know [ __ ] and I remember having little kids and like we'd be in these cycles and I didn't I could barely just like feed them and just to keep them alive and um it was really hard yeah so like I don't know I would want to tell people out there like you're not alone and um you know I I even looking back at the younger versions of ourselves I feel like we were just doing the best we could with what we had yeah or what was given to us yeah and I feel like we have more resources now so we're able to do better and yeah if you're listening to this podcast I hope uh you maybe feel a little less alone or maybe you identified with a part of me or a part of Cami and and can find some hope in all this um that's all I gotta say yeah thanks for listening thank you for listening to fight for together we'll see you next time

Channel: Fight for Together

Views: 4,452

Keywords: fight for together, family vlog, family, family adventure, homeschool, home school, homeschool vlog, large families, parenting, unschooling, unschooler

Id: KeiL0YANv_w

Length: 76min 51sec (4611 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 17 2023