20 Mule Teams and the old Apache Trail

Well howdy folks I'm Hank Sheffer and I'm  here again this day with Mr Larry Hedrick   we have another tale for you that I  think you're really going to enjoy but it's not about gold and silver but  you're going to have fun with this one too   you know in our travels we've been to a lot of  places and met a lot of people exploring the   true to life history and legends and lore here  in the Mysteries of the Superstition Mountains   we've talked about the native people  building extravagant cliff dwellings   we've explored the causes and effects and the  travesties caused by the indian wars we've talked   about the creation of useful fertile agrarian  land that was produced out of desert areas   we've talked about the building of  modern thriving towns and cities   where nothing has existed before and we've  talked about the men and women whose vision   and entrepreneurship laid the very foundations  for what we see in our day-to-day lives today   and of course we've talked at length about gold  and the many treasures that these old mountains   have become famous for we have seen such a wealth  of adventure through our historical storytelling   to me one of the most amazing accomplishments  attributed to this area is the incredible   construction of the Mesa Roosevelt road and of  course the Roosevelt dam itself in fact we even   did a video on that that you can go back and  see but with all that said would you believe   that one of the things that has intrigued me as  much as anything and don't think I'm crazy now   but I have to wonder how all these freighters  managed to get all that material and the supplies   up to the Roosevelt dam by way of that skinny  little road called the Apache trail using 20   mule teams to pull these huge wagons I  just can't figure out how they did that   well I know Larry Hedrick the co-founder of the  superstition mount museum has been messing around   with horses and teams and whatnot for a long time  can you help me out with that Larry well you know   my family moved to California when I was three  years old in September of 1941 and uh my first   experience was a horse was right then where we've  got a picture of me and my brothers on a little   pinto and uh you know during the war broke out  just a couple of months after we got there and   you know there were some trigger happy soldiers  at that time there were there were spotlights   in the air and every time a plane flew over  the they cut loose and then there was a story   about a submarine Japanese submarine and all  that and my folks put my brother and I on a   bus back to Oklahoma and my grandfather had a  an old horse there that he had for years and   and that horse was trained to just say go get the  cows and he wouldn't go get cows my grandpa put me   on that horse and no saddle no reins and said hold  on to his mane there and he sent the horse off to   get the cows I didn't have to do anything  I just you know and i only say this not to   anything about the expertise of horses and stuff  but as a child I had no fear of horses yeah well   my real experience didn't happen until i got to  Arizona and that was in the late 50s and my dad   was living in a trailer court down here in mesa  and a lady there had a horse that she corralled   across the street and it needed exercising a lot  and I rode the devil out of that horse and but   really uh you know in 75 I met uh Tom Kollinborn  and we started taking trips in the mountains   and if anything will get you seated in a horse  and stay on a horse it's the ups and downs and   yeah then there was some pretty dangerous stuff  going on there and and that's where you really get   your confidence when you can go in there and come  out and and never have fallen off your horse and   I even brought a team of mules i only got one  picture of that team of mules but they were   big mules and when I bought them the fella didn't  really say much about them except they were broke   to ride and broke full and I didn't trust them  very much so I had an old army jeep so I rigged   up a double tree and hooked them up to the bumper  of that jeep and I drove around all over out here and of course i could step on the break and throw  it in reverse if I had to is that like whoa whoa   and uh I bought the mules because I had a three  inch ordinance rifle civil war cannon and limber   and I want to we were in a lot of parades  with the caliber unit that I developed   and I wanted to be able to pull the cannon  in a parade with those mules but everything   worked perfectly on a rubber tired vehicle  but the moment i hooked them up to iron wheels   that one one mule just took off at the end of the  story and i never did trust that mule to put him   in a parade because of that I'm really intrigued  about the cavalry what was the cavalry thing you   mentioned well because of the fact that I had the  cannon some civil war reenactors contacted me and   when we got involved in the civil war reenacting   uh some other guys wanted to make cannons and  I bought some wagons off an indian reservation   in New Mexico for the wheels and axles to  make cannon with and after I'd made two or   three cannons for other guys a fella heard  that I had all these wagons I had 20 of them   and that's covered in another episode by the way  but um he he wanted to he wanted to make me a deal   and he invited me down to his place and he opened  up this shed he had 20 McClellan saddles in there   oh my goodness and bridles and everything and  i traded him a saddle and a bridle for a wagon   and that's how the calvary come into being and  for the next 15 years we've done public and   non-public reenactments and that was one of the  most interesting hobbies I was ever involved in it   one time we went with fort wachuka over to the  chirokola mountains were one of the fifth calvary   guys or six calvary guys uh owned on the ranch  and if you got captured you got thrown in the   grain bin and if you didn't get out you were out  of the game for the rest of the night so it was   a wonderful hobby and I really enjoyed it in your  travels with all the horses whatnot did you ever   deal with Red Wolverton seems like everybody  who's ever dealt with a wagon or horses or stunts   or anything else has bumped into Red Wolverton  at one time or another yeah red Wolverton was   managing Apacheland and you of all people ought  to know that but I got to know red very well and in fact the calvary was out there a couple of  times and we had a steak fried he was running   the steak fry and stuff and I I got to know him  so well that when one time he was taking his   concord stagecoach and his six-up team to Apache  junction for to be in the Lost Dutchman parade   and uh I was amazed that he left me  to drive that uh six up for a while   and you know there's a there's a picture here of  how you're supposed to hold the reins and I just   reached around and put my fingers over the range  just like he had his and he handed them over to me   and he didn't say a thing to me you know I did  and driving along on a straightaway everything   was fine till we came to a long sweeping  curve and that's where I made my first mistake   i assumed those horses would naturally follow  the road not so right off into the desert we went   and you know that's when I learned that uh when  you're driving a six-up is not like anything else   two up four up doesn't compare to a six-up those  horses are trained to respond to those reigns   and they're going to do exactly what  you tell them and if you don't tell them   that's why I ended up in the door exactly right  and I know there's got to be times that you   can't tell all the horses to turn at the same time  you've got to turn the leaders first and the swing   team second and the wheelers last and I don't know  how you I don't know how you do that with a six up   I can see moving telling the turn the the leaders  with the raines or the wheel horses with the reins   but every time you do that the swing team's going  to get some motion so I just don't I just don't   understand how that's done and anybody out there  in the audience that knows how that's done we'd   appreciate you knowing it because listen I looked  it up I tried everything I've talked to several   people about it and they really didn't  have an answer and they tell me I asked a   couple of people when we were looking for that  they said I never really gave it any thought   well that doesn't help us at all so anyway you  know red was interested in buying Apacheland   it was up for sale and every time he went in  and tried to make a deal the price went up   every time so he finally got discouraged with  that and he moved to Tucson and he worked with   OldTucson studios and still does as far as I know  except I just heard day closed but he knew I had   military saddles he knew I had wagons he knew  I had a cannon and he arranged to rent all that   stuff for the movies when the need came up and and  I remember this one specific time he you know the   hubba bubba bubble gum commercials you remember  those oh I sure do. yeah big bubbles no trouble! and so Red rented one of the wagons off of me  for one of these commercials he also rented   saddles for another which mike calvary wasn't  involved in or just the equipment but on this   one particular thing it called for a wagon race  and he hooked up two of his horses to my wagon   and uh they didn't tell me who was supposed to  win you know it was a race and there was about   20 wagons and buggies wagons all kinds of things  involved in this race and I just turned the horses   loose and man I beat everybody never never thought  a thing about it who was supposed to win well   it turned out it was red's daughter wagon was  supposed to win and we had to reshoot that race   and uh anyway uh as we got to the bottleneck where  we were all coming together at the end of the race   uh I was pulling on the reins to slow the horses  down and they were responding but very slow and   uh I didn't know red was behind me on a horse and  as soon as red said whoa those horses responded   immediately so you know they know your voice  I'll tell you that and it helps a lot to have   for those horses to know verbal commands like  that it's ironic that you mentioned commercials   with reds but I did too I actually worked with  him and we used that stagecoach that big concord   is and my partner Don Plummer at the time we  were all ghosts the commercial was called ghosts   and there's a picture a scene that we shoot  where my partner is walking down the boardwalk   at Old Tucson down in Mezcal and the stagecoach  goes by and the stagecoach is a ghost too because   you can see my partner through the stagecoach but  here here comes red with that six up and that that   concord stage and just went right by and it was  it was kind of a a placid moment it was just ghost   on ghost but working with red was always okay  well let's do this maybe we'll do that you know   everything was just really relaxed but he  knew what he was doing at all times well now   that we've talked about all that we've talked  about two-ups we've talked about the four-ups   and the six-ups but getting back to the topic that  we started with are these 20 mule teams how in the   world did they make that happen how did they make  those work because they don't have rains on every   mule do they I mean they nothing silly like  that but how did they do that I wonder how   many of our audience has ever heard the term  i don't know that guy from Adam's off ox you know by the time you get to it off ox your  relatives are pretty distant but I want to explain   that before we start this because that really  cuts them they think you're not you know you have   the near horse and you have the off horse you  have the near mule and you have the off meal   and that's where the word off ox comes from he's  the far one because they the riders usually ride   the near one now for example we have a picture  here of a civil war cannon team pulling   a cannon with a six up and all the uh soldiers  are riding the near horse not the officer on the   left side on the left side and that's important  to know because when when you're dealing with   large teams that's also the case on a 20-mule  team the driver is usually riding the wheel horse   on the near side and he's controlling  everything from that position   uh your teams are the ones that are hooked right  to the wagon the first team is the wheel team   and these are usually horses even even with  mule teams they're they're bigger they're   stronger and when you get into like a silver  king mine where you see four wagons and 20 mules   uh the the wheel team is the one that's  really putting the power into getting that   thing moving although they're being helped  by the other ones they're the wheel team   is a strong team they're the low gear getting  that's it started and and that's that's the one   the near one that the the driver is usually riding  then you have the swing teams that's the ones in   the middle and then you have the leaders the  the two horses the two mules at the very front   of the line which may be they're all hooked  to the same chain which may be 150 feet long how would you do that with rains you can't have  rains to every one of those teams so there's   only one line that goes to the near sided not  near-sighted he can see pretty good the near side leader mule and he is that one line is  attached to him and he's attached to the   other leader by a solid line so whatever he  does forces the other one to do the same thing   but there are no other lines to any other of  the teams of all of them together they are   trained to voice commands every one of them  which meant the driver had to know the name of   every mule to be able to give courses Jerry, Jack  ye! ha! you know left or right you know and and   they had to actually jump the chain when  they went around curves in fact we have   uh we have some photographs of a 20-mule  team with with horses as the wheel team   being trained and there's several people riding  alongside of them because these are these are   being trained and there was a tremendous amount  of training that had to go into these mules   and some of them if they didn't work out they  were eliminated from the new new ones brought   in and trained to respond to these voice  commands and our first picture here shows   the the first team although they're all swing  teams between the wheels and the leaders   the first team is actually  hooked to the tongue of the wagon   and they're called the pointers  and when their names are called out   ge! or ha! to to go left or right the the one  they have to one of them has to jump the chain   and that moves the tongue of the wagon turning the  wagon away from the curve because if they didn't   do that they would eventually the wagon would rub  up against the side of the turn and and depending   how steep the turn was you know in our second  one we have pictures of two teams jumping over   on on they're all on the same on the same side of  the deal and uh and pulling away from the turn so   the wagon doesn't hit the sides of the cliff or  whatever they're up against we have a picture here   that shows uh a mule actually jumping the chain  of course when the when the curve straightens out   he's got to jump back and after a while he he may  do that on his own but mostly they got to be told   when to do it and I'm not sure if the mules knew  the driver's name but I didn't it's just like red   when red said whoa they they knew they knew his  voice and when that when the the driver says   Jerry Gee! you know he knows what to do this  gets pretty complicated for one man to know all   these mules and that my goodness gracious.  now and the next picture we got we found   on the internet was the mules pulling wagons  making a great s turn and actually this shows   swing teams jumping on opposite sides of the chain  because it had this big s turn and they had to do   that in in order to keep keep from having a wreck  and we've also got a picture of a wreck here that   we want to show that shows that the very best the  new ones the bunch they can also make mistakes   well we've talked a great deal about  this and it's really interesting to me what these guys were doing with 20  mule teams is truly amazing it's not   incredible i read some place just with the 20  mule teams that they talk about with the borax   you know that they were running  as many as six to eight teams   back and forth every day so there were 16  teams of these 20 mule teams running in a day   and i mean these guys that were that  were piloting this stuff had that's   just amazing to me and they were pretty  highly well paid from what I understand   I was just truly flabbergasted with the amount of  the weight and the freight that these guys pulled   um three of those wagons was over 70 tons plus  the weight of the wagon which was seven or eight   times it's just miraculous to me but anyway  that gets us back to the Roosevelt dam that   we were talking about earlier in the Roosevelt  road which of course we know is Apache trail   which is an incredible an incredible feat in  itself and unfortunately as popular as that road   got to be as it stands right now it's been closed  for over a year because of a couple of rock falls it's an important road and it seems like  we ought to be able to get that thing open   somehow or another well yeah you're saying they  was running 16 teams with these borax places   you know they were running anywhere from 20 to  60 wagons a day on Apache trail and we have a   we have a picture we have a drone shot here uh  of what's left of the old Apache trail the only   place really left of the old Apatche trail and you  you talked earlier about that skinny little road   if you think that how would you like to meet  a team coming down while you're coming up on   this road this this video is something else and  it shows the old bridge abutment the bridge is   no longer there but uh the the the stonework is  still there and this is really the only place that   you can see any of the original Apache trail  that give you some idea of how narrow it was   and what it must have been like to go around these  corners and also the you know the teams coming   back from the dam probably weren't carrying  anything so all other teams had right-of-way   and it was their responsibility the empty  ones it was their responsibility to make sure   that when they came to a curve or downhill  or something like that to make very sure   that there wasn't somebody coming up if you  have a team coming down and a team going up   how does one know that the other one is doing what  it's doing because they they don't have radios. well that's true but the the lead teams had a an  extension on their leather goods to to hang bells   off of and you could these were good-sized  bells these weren't little dinky things and   then you could hear them quite a distance but  just like you're gonna be on the freeway doing   uh 70 miles an hour and you want to switch lanes  it's always best to have a visual yes that can't   hurt and not depend on somebody honking their  horns so I really suspect that the empty teams   did a visual before because you know this this  one drone shot we're showing is almost half a   mile long and I don't think you could hear those  bills half mile away so you got to make darn sure   there's nobody coming because what would you  do on a skinny thing with a drop off like it   if you met each other oh my goodness we talked  about that wreck before I started to think what   a wreck would be like i heard a guy tell me one  time i asked him about if there were any wrecks   and he says yes yes or was and and you never  get over hearing that sound of mules screaming   as they're being drugged over it's uh I wouldn't  want to see or hear any of that I don't know   but you know some of these teamsters you  know with a 10 up or 12 up which was common   would team together and when they  got to places like fish creek hill   the back team would stop unhitched their mules  and attach them to the back of the lead wagon   so you had mules pulling them down  hills but you had mules behind them   dragging them back and this this was  specifically to involve avoid having any wrecks now in fact uh did did they have 20 mule teams  on Apache trail well you know we've got all kinds   of pictures of 10s and 12s and stuff like that  but yes actually there was a there was a group   as near as I can count had 24 teams 24 24 they  were hauling the steam engine up to Roosevelt dam   and here's a picture of of  the tremendous long line of uh   it looks like a mixture of horses and mules  but that steam engine was big and it was heavy   and they and it it took a lot of pull to do  that why were they taking the bloody thing   well he's taken up to Roosevelt dam yeah  I guess he was yeah and unfortunately highway 88 is closed now because of the  woodbury fire and the monsoon storms   that caused a landslide that has blocked the road  and we're all very concerned you know in 1987 state route 88 was made into a scenic  highway and it is a very popular place even   even teddy Roosevelt was amazed by the beauty and  grandeur of Apache trail and all my relatives and   friends that come out here I take them to fish  creek hill and of course it's closed now and my   understanding was in the beginning they said  they weren't going to open it but the state   has got some federal funds to to to make sure  that it happens but I also hear that that they   they plan to wait until the vegetation regrows  so they don't have to do it again real quick   but that doesn't make sense to me either  because every every good monsoon season we have   the grass grows and when the summer comes it  dies and it burns down again and there's there's   been landslides before and there'll be more  after realistically I don't think most people   understand not only the commercial  value of the Apache trail I mean it was   it was really important back then getting the  Roosevelt dam we know that but in this day and age   the commercial value of getting from  Apache Junction or down from the north   into some of these tourist areas to see tortilla  flat or whatever is really important but   it's also important in a lot of other ways  besides the commercial there's the tourism   but there's also the importance that nobody  thinks about of what this road does because   it cuts off it's the hypotenuse in a triangle  just for the police departments and the fire   departments to get the places and I know you've  done research on that with a number of cars   you you told me what the number of cars were  going through this and it it amazed even me   well yeah in preparing for the museum we had  to show that that there was sufficient traffic   to warrant supporting a museum and  we got the ADOT statistics in 1980   when they had traffic counters in  two or three places on Apache trail   and at one particular point before you got to  the museum they had 21 000 cars a day going to   21,000? 21,000 cars a day going through that  counter and it also showed that 260 cars a day   were going to Roosevelt dam the whole way the down  fish brick hill all the way to the Roosevelt dam   the only other statistic I could find was I looked  it up on the internet just just yesterday in 2009   they estimated not from a counter but they  estimated that sixteen thousand cars a day   were going up Apache trail and I you don't  know where that cutoff was because there   weren't three traffic counters because a lot  of people just as you pass museum go over   to work with about a thousand people living  over there but anyway they said that 400   cars a day were going all the way through in  2009. and so here it's another 12 years or so   and I have to assume that when Apache trail  closed because of the slide that probably 600   cars a day were making all the way through  and with with uh 88 closed at fish creek   you know the.... this closure and the fire caused  the people at the Apache lake the marina the   restaurant all the other stuff that goes on up  there forced them to sell out and I have it on   good authority that you know it's 20 miles from  Apache lake to canyon lake sure and the four the   Maricopa county sheriff's office is  charged with patrolling Apache lake and   now they can't go that 20 miles they've got  to go all the way around through Miami yeah   and that's 110 miles which means that's  220 miles every day how many times that   the sheriff's office is having to go up to Apache  lake and although ADOT may save some money by not   opening up Apache trail until until the vegetation  grows back which is going to burn down again the sheriff's office have to go bankrupt so I don't know I just I would love to see them  go ahead and open it up because it isn't the   first rock slide that's ever happened and it's  not going to be the last and if if nothing else   happens between now and the next three and a half  years before they think the vegetation going to   grow back what's going to happen to the economy  up there at Apache lake because you know once   other people once something closes down and you go  find another place it's hard to get back so we've   seen the importance of what this trail really  holds and don't you find it pretty incredible   that we can't get that fixed with everything we  have today when they built the thing they had   a bunch of guys out there with wooden shovels and  picks and a bunch of jackasses and they built the   thing to start with and now all we got's a bunch  of jackasses and that's just another mystery   thank you for watching this episode of  Mysteries of the Superstition Mountains you

Channel: Mysteries of the Superstition Mountains

Views: 23,428

Keywords: Charlie LeSueur, Superstition Mountains, The Lost Dutchman Mine, Superstition Mountain Museum, Opal Images, Arizona, History, Gold, Treasure, Apache Trail, Fish Creek Hill, Larry Hedrick, Hank Sheffer, Red Wolverton, Old Tucson Studio, Apacheland, 20 mule team, Frieghters, Roosevelt Dam

Id: -NP3bd9Na28

Length: 32min 58sec (1978 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 24 2021