Truth vs. Legend

[music] welcome to Mysteries of the Superstition Mountains today more time with Jack San Felice as he tells us about one of the famous Dutch hunters as a matter of fact he's got a mountain named after him up there in the mountains Herman Petrash well when I first came out here to Arizona books were scarce as hen's teeth on the Superstition Mountains and the and most the books that have been written there were only a couple could even had photographs or could tell you something that you could actually find and that's like finding treasure itself I found these two little books one by Bob Ward ripples of lost echoes and one by Bob Garman mystery gold or the superstitions it's a great story and so after I after I had been searching for the Dutchman's trail on the west end I decided to try to find the location of the cabin because the cabin Herman's cabin Herman Petrash. give us a little background on Herman Petrash said Herman Petrash was one of the first Dutch hunters now if I could digress I don't want to go through the whole story of the first Dutch hunters but the first Dutch hunters was was were Herman his brother Rhinnie their father Gottried and Julia Thomas four if I'm right okay the Dutchman is dead but Herman was part of that first search group of the Lost Dutchman mine and he searched the mountains many many years all right young man where did you get your information from in 1953 Bob Garman went out interviewed man Herman lived off a Hewitt Station Road right within sight of literally the ranch house owned by Billy Martin jr. on Hewitt Station Road well Billy Martin's father helped Hermann... Hermann worked for Billy Martin senior and in building things he was a handyman he did a lot of things and so he helped him build some things in in the superstitions where line cabins and whatnot Wells digging wells and reading wells water holes for the cattle and so Herman as he got older built a Shack right on Hewitt Station Road Herman's story is well known by Billy Martin jr. and Billy Martin jr. was the first cowboy that I met riding up Hewitt Canyon Road come across the cowboy and it it is Billy Martin jr. as time went by interviewed and many times and Billy was the treasure trove of information if you knew how to decipher what he said but one of the things he did say this little book on it and you should get that little book and so I found it and I bought the book and lo and behold in there Herman Petrash's story and there are two stories that kind of dovetail into each other and so an interview as being as conducted by Bob Garman who writes it in this particular book and there's another interview that's published in a newspaper by a female reporter but she writes a nice story about Herman too and it has to deal with Herman and the Lost Dutchman mine and were there really any mines out there in the eastern section that had gold in the Superstition Mountains well Herman died the very next day after Garman interviewed him he was on his last legs remember Herman probably was in his 80s at the time 88 years old maybe so Herman was the brother of Rhinie that knew the Dutchman his brother Rhinie the one who listened to the Dutchman tell the stories and wrote the notes of where to find a mind and wrote a map out for them but but Dutchman Jacob Waltz's he wrote it all out in German so that English people wouldn't be able to understand it and he gave and he gave these notes to Rhinie will Rhinie and Julia when Gottfried and Herman come down from Colorado in that August of 1892 the Dutchman died in October of 1891 but they wanted they weren't mining they were mining up in Colorado and you know if you're there in October November December you can't get out of Colorado if you're in a mine you're stuck there the snows will get you so that they didn't come down there until the summer after the the trails were open so they made it down by horseback down from Colorado to Arizona to Phoenix rather and so that August of 1892 the father of Rhinie and Herman Gottfried was his name Gottfried who spoke mostly German they need him because he's a miner and Hermans a miner Rhinie worked for Julia when she owned a bakery and Herman he was a miner and he knew about mining he was a prospector and so they came down to help search so there's Julia sells her bakery to get money because she owned it by then she had divorced E W Thomas who by the way was Thomas's bakery and their advertisements and many of the old newspapers of the 1880s and 90's of E W Thomas bakery and it was a sign on it was that 137 West Washington I believe so they go into mountains in their search and For it in August and they don't find it there on the western end of the Superstition Mountains by the way they walked right by right past in 1893 one more year they would find the black Queen the Mammoth mine and the Bulldog mine would all open up about the same time and all those... and Goldfield would be established the town the mining camp of Goldfield about 3,000 people in its existence it only lasted about five years goldfield the mammoth millions millions I think 60 thousand ounces of gold were taken out of the mammoth mine alone and I know that the black Queen still produces gold because I some of the ore from it and get back to Herman so Herman at the end of his days he he moves close to the one family that he'd been close to throughout the year that the Martin family and they look out for him as a matter of fact in 1947 Herman and his brother hadn't spoken for almost 50 years Rhinie.. Rhinie lived in Globe had gone blind so Herman and supposedly had never talked to him Billy Martin jr. said that you know Jack he said I took Herman out or my father and I took Herman out to meet with Rhinie just before he died and they patched things up not many people know this the stories are that they never saw each other again or never got to get but they did he said my father and I took Herman to meet Ronnie and he's and they let bygones by be bygones in those days cuz Herman Rhinie was blind and he was you know on in fact right after that meeting shortly thereafter Rhinie took a shotgun and killed himself we'll get back to this little book and the little book in it after the interview with Garman and after the interview with this lady reporter Herman was very adamant about the same thing and what was that and they said in this you know I've been all over these mountains and they asked him well other is their gold out there or there mines out there and how old are the mines that are out there Herman looks with a straight face and he says well I've traveled those mountains for years and you see out there oh and he pointed from his cabin site you could see Iron Mountain he said see that mountain way out there he said the highest one that's Iron Mountain he said at the base of Iron Mountain there are two old Spanish mines that I know of and I know old Jake's mine is out there now go find it and that's what he told Bob Garman and that's what he told this lady reporter well Garman did go out there and Garman found a silver mine up on Fraser mountain became known I believe as the I believe he was looking for the story called The Lost wetlatch mine in wetlash Canyon and it was very close to that and Garman found this big old mine and the mine shaft is there I went there with Greg Davis one time in the early 90s and Greg wanted to climb down through all these broken Timbers at the top and crime down in there wanted me to look out for him I said and come after him if he can't get out Greg you get down there I'm going after you I'm not going into that mine because one I heard a rattlesnake rattle okay and then the other thing is was so busted up there were no supports there all collapsed in I said I'm not going into that well another day Greg and go out there so wait a minute I'm thinking of myself wait a minute this is in the 90s before I knew anything about this quote these quotes out of this book and I'm saying well this was gold where they found gold if I owned silver they finally found copper and gold silver copper kind of like go up along first they find gold silver at the top or just silver and then copper and it runs the coppers you get down deeper there's something said to be said about that didn't you and Ron Feldman find some of the Peralta mines sure enough in the early 2000 about 2000 Ron Feldman a noted Dutch hunter is now looking in the eastern part and he's gotten ahold of some old notes and he told you his story because I saw on YouTube and he said well I'll be digging Jack if you got chance to come out and take a few photos he knows on photographer and we'll take photos and so he out there one of the two Spanish mines out there we determined to be by the age of the Timbers underground well they dig out this one they're digging out everything by hand and reinforcing it it's the only way I would go down in there they reinforce the sides and then the tunnel and I went down and took photos of all of that activity out there but Ron asked me what do I know about Spanish mining north of the Gila I said well Ron I have a few documents and a binder had that many that many documents that deal with Spanish mining out here in Arizona from the Gila River to the Salt River and the stories of the Peralta's and his stories yeah there's a story of a real Peralta listed any archives that went to the Salt River and found gold there while he was in the military it was a lieutenant chasing Apaches in the 1700s it's in the archives but that's the horse of a different color and that story for an other day there to get back to Herman and I went hey wait a minute I got to go back and interview Billy Martin did you try and get that story directly from Billy Martin no only did Billy Martin tell me the story of the gold and he wouldn't tell me where it was but he did take me out and show me where the horse trail the old horse trail from the JF trail which was the Indian runner trail through the mountains and also used by Reavis who grew vegetables and took him to Silver King and Pinnel and also went into Florence Reavis the crazy mountain man lived by himself at a place now called Reavis ranch that what didn't figure out what the horse trail was was there a rock figure of a horse what no it was the trail that they took to get from the bottom of the j.f trail it goes up to the top of the ridges above Rogers Canyon and from those ridges one of the clues is you can see from above my mine weavers needle and from but below if you're down on the old Military Trail you cannot see my mine as a matter of fact well I'll get into that story and another time because I walked it both ways up and down and yeah the old horse trails there so do you think that Herman eventually found that mine yeah Harmon knew he knew where the mine was but the mine was always guarded was always looked after by Guess Who but guess who at the base of the horse trail and the JF ranch was named after Jack Frazier Jack Frazier became quote probably a multi-millionaire in his day at mining claims on an Alaska and everything and he owned a vast area called jf ranch out there a lot of cattle he he was one of the owners in in a drugstore in Mesa called everybody's was the name of the drugstore okay and so Jack Frazier I have photos of him and everything but Jack Frazier was also one of the foreman at the silver King mine when the soldiers came there didn't Frazier win that in a bet and Jack Frazier founded his he founded his ranch on a bet between him and the owner of a saloon over who was going to win the next election and it came time the election came around Jack Frazier won the bet but the saloon owner didn't have and he owned a restaurant and he didn't have and silver king he did not have the money to pay him so he gave him cattle gave him cattle and it's how Jack Frazier the legend goes how he started his ranch over in the superstitions called the JF very odd that he finds it at the base of what became that established that ranch out there the JF ranch the cabin I think is still hopefully it did npt get burnt down in a fire but that old horse Billy Martin told me right out there and showed me the horse trail where it was showed it to me on on a topo map and then later I was up there many many many times because that was the clue it became the clue the JF trail became the old Military Trail for me through the mountains because there was no Military Trail per se but it became the Indian runner trail first from Camp Fort McDowell first we'll camp MacDonald Fort McDowell to Camp Pinnel over top of superior was through the mountains because for a runner to go down all the way around the mountains just wouldn't it was too long so they ran through they knew the trails knew the water holes all right now getting back to Herman well what I'd like to wrap up with Herman was he he gave he gave many this book came out and see if I can find the date it came out 75 yeah but the story was out before that in the newspapers okay Herman's story was out there in the 50s Herman's story was out there and he talked about the north east version but then some guys came by and said oh the mines at weavers needle they started perpetuating the Lost Dutchman mine and weavers needle and because that's something that somebody wrote in the book because they used the name the needle and everybody said the needle must be weavers needle that the Dutchman said he could see the needle thought that was weavers needle but in fact what he saw wasn't weavers needle from the mine and the area that he that Herman knew the area one I don't understand people at 75 why there weren't claims filed because before nineteen eighty-four you could file claims in that area the last claims I can fly I can find filed in that area where in the 1960s and that whole area there was claimed was also claimed by the way somebody believed that story because the Woodburys in 1906 came from California to Arizona and they filed 120 claims up in that whole area but that's another story but Herman gave the clues Herman gave the clues to that story of the legend that became the Lost Dutchman mine but Herman didn't tell you the legend he told you the truth of we're too old Spanish mines were found and where gold had been found what's the most important thing you learned about Herman Petrash Herman was affiliated with the legend of the Lost Dutchman mine as one of the first Dutch hunters but he never gave interviews he never gave interviews and he never told the story that he thought to be true the true story of the Lost Dutchman location of the Lost Dutchman mine now Herman Hermans brother Rhinie committed suicide 1953 Herman's on his last leg and he knows it Bob Garman had known him for quite quite some time it goes on to interviews him and significantly he says to Bob Garman and he points over his shoulder see that's Iron Mountain he said now and I want to quote him Herman said the the clues to the mines location lead a reasonable person to conclude that they overwhelmingly point to a formerly rich mine in the high eastern Superstition Mountains when he could search no more he stated and he points out he said out there past robles hills and on to iron mountain he said out there somewhere is the old Jake mine now go find it that's the two most relevant clues that I have found in all the Dutch hunter stories and it's right out of the horse's mouth right out of the guy that searched the mountains for 50 years for the Dutchman's but he but Herman was no dummy he had a claim up there which gave him legitimate reason to be there to a highly protected mine that was mine during the 1890s and also mined in the early 1900's the 1940s etc etc in 1897 Herman filed a mining claim within a stone's throw of the mine but my story on the mine on the Dutchman mine is going to take three hours because I'm gonna give you the whole background of why I believe that to be but the two most significant out of an obscure book like this why do you believe his statement two most significant statements he came out of a man who knew he was dying and know he was going to die there for the old-timers they had a tendency on their deathbed to tell true statements not to tell lies they were afraid that would catch up with them they would not have a chance to seek forgiveness by a higher power by God so the old-timers believe do not lie when you're old you tell the truth and I am old now and I'm telling you the truth that Herman's Clues that with everything else in the 2000s I was right on the trail I knew where it was but I had to prove to everybody where it was because they wouldn't believe me in fact today if you picked up this book based on Herman's clues and the information I got from Billy Martin jr. and others you and believe the story because it's the truth people would rather would rather believe the legend than the truth if you tell them the truth they won't believe you if you tell them the legend it's at weavers needle they'll believe you and they'll go out there and kill each other and die of thirst like they do in the stories I'm about to tell in the future deaths in the Superstition Mountains so could the Lost Dutchman mind have actually been found already just another one of those wonderful mysteries of the Superstition Mountains [Music]

Channel: Mysteries of the Superstition Mountains

Views: 58,407

Keywords: Charlie LeSueur, Superstition Mountains, The Lost Dutchman Mine, Superstition Mountain Museum, Opal Images, Arizona, History, Gold, Treasure, Jack San Felice

Id: GFHUgpqn48U

Length: 24min 40sec (1480 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 30 2019