[music] Marcus: Good evening, and welcome to
'The Journey Home.' I'm Marcus Grodi, your host for this program. Those of you who've
watched 'The Journey Home' for many years know
that we often have guests that come from
backgrounds that are, you might call
the usual suspects, former Anglicans,
former Lutherans, maybe former Baptists,
Presbyterians or such, or fallen-away Catholics, but every once in a while we have someone that's
come into the Church from one of
those other denominations, one of those other groups
that knock at our door and we don't know much
about them, and such is the case tonight. Our guest is Cary Dabney, and he's a former
Jehovah's Witness. And it's really great,
Cary, to have you on the program
for a number of reasons. One, I want to hear
your story, so as the guest, but myself,
I don't know a lot about the
Jehovah's Witnesses. Mainly what I've heard from former
Jehovah's Witnesses, so I look forward
to hearing that. And one thing about Cary, just so you know, that he is now the Director of the Office of Ministry to African-American
Catholics for the Diocese
of Cleveland. I mean that's an
awesome ministry. Cary Dabney:
It's an awesome program. That is really neat. I'd love to hear about that
later in the program. Okay. But let me back away, and let's hear your story,
my friend. Well, I mean, honestly, I always say
my story started, my journey started probably right around the age
of 12 or 13 years old, even though I didn't know it
at the time. I had a young friend. His name was Jean-Pierre. He was, I called
'The Hallmark Kid.' He was the perfect kid; great, great friends, was incredibly smart. And, unfortunately,
he got ill and had a brain tumor. He was a good
friend of mine. And he passed away at
the age of 12 years old. We were both around
the same age. And I'll never forget
when I went to his wake, the number of people, number of friends of ours, all from school,
who showed up. And I remember saying, "Man, I, as one of
Jehovah's Witnesses, I can't wait to see him
again in Paradise." And then my father said
something odd. He said, "Well, the only
reason why you'll see him is because he was one of Jehovah's Witnesses
like you." And it kind of
threw me off, because I looked around
at all my friends, all who were there,
and I said to myself, 'How is it that a God
Who is loving can have such a narrow
qualification requirement of living in Paradise,
of living forever?' That didn't sound like
a very benevolent God to me. So, at that very young age,
I started to ask questions. It wasn't until
many years later; I was the oldest
of four children. I knew, being raised one
of Jehovah's Witnesses, that when you make
a decision to leave the organization
of Jehovah's Witnesses, that you are pretty much going to be estranged
from your family. And I was, not only just
in my family, where I was the oldest
of four boys, but both of my parents, both my stepfather, who was raising me
at the time, and my biological mother, all their family
were Jehovah's Witnesses. Marcus: <i>Wow.</i> So, you're talking, I would have been
the only one. So it was, it was
a tough decision. Having not been brought up
with any connection with Jehovah's Witnesses, was that life your life? I mean were you very
absorbed as a young man, a believer as a young man,
as a Jehovah's Witness, you know what I'm saying, the theology of it,
all that? Were you absorbed
in all that? Yeah, the formation of being one of Jehovah's
Witnesses is such in that
you have no choice but your life to be absorbed
in the tradition. You are taught
at a very young age and anything outside
of this organization, or has been identified
as believers of that organization,
is actually quote, unquote
"of the world," under "satanic influence". So, literally
there's no one outside of
the organization that you grow
any relationship with; it's only Jehovah's
Witnesses. So when you go to make
that determination that 'this is not the life
that I want to live anymore,' what you're
basically doing is you're cutting
off your support. Not only are you cutting
off your support, but you're entering
into a world that you have always
been told is set in
opposition to you, and set in opposition to God
intrinsically. Right? So it was a very difficult decision. In addition to that, knowing that that was going
to be the step, when I turned 18... Why was that
going to be the step? I know that the death
of your friend, but I mean, were you
starting to question? Well, yes. So, so, even
at that young age, I began to question what I was being taught
about just the nature of God. In the organization
of Jehovah's Witnesses, there's always backdrop
that God is going to come, the days of Armageddon
will come, in which God
will basically smote anything
that is not part of the Jehovah's Witness
organization, right? So, even when you're
thinking about, 'Okay, everything in my spirit is telling me this is not a definition
of a benevolent God,' there's always that fear of this God coming
to smote you, particularly when
you're raised in it. Every story is lent, Bible story is lent
towards this idea that God is judging
the entire time, if that makes any sense. So, as I'm growing up, from 12 to 18, I'm praying fervently what I call
my Cornelius prayer, meaning being raised one
of Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't know,
I don't know much about
any faith tradition outside of
Jehovah's Witnesses. And what I do know,
I come to find out later, is very distorted
about the tradition, particularly
the Catholic tradition, in particular. So I'm just praying
for truth, whatever that truth is, I'm just
praying for truth. I didn't know about what
form I was praying. I didn't even know whose
name I'm supposed to pray in. All I know is, I'm just
praying for truth. Reveal to me what,
who God is, because He can't be; And even though
at the time I couldn't articulate it. Later, I would articulate
it as grace, but I couldn't articulate
at the time why I knew that what
I was being exposed to was not truth,
of a true representation, a true portrayal
of God the Father. I'm sure after dinner you and your dad
just sat around and talked about
all these things, right? Oh, absolutely not. [laughter] Absolutely not. Questions are not
encouraged, when you're one of
Jehovah's Witnesses. You are told that
the governing body, which is what they call
their, their, who heads
the organization, promulgates
the information, you do not question
the information, and you study the information
ad nauseam, to be able to repeat
and recite what has been
promulgated down by the governing body
of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is what is told
for, you know, millions of hours a week, by Jehovah's Witnesses
around the globe, when they come
and knock at your door. They're just regurgitating
what has been told to them by the governing body. And you're not supposed
to question that. So again, I, on my own, began to ask
certain questions. Of course,
I had not any formation on where to go look
for this, which is why I keep going
back to the prayer. I just kept making
a prayer, and stepped out
on faith at 18, when I stepped away. <i>Wow,</i> wow, wow. Um, so was it once
you left high school, then you were,
is that kind of the time or? Well, it wasn't
around the time, but the reason why is, I wanted to go to college. And another thing
that is not encouraged by the organization, or at least
was not encouraged when I was in
the organization, was higher education. Surprise, because higher
education will expose you to truths outside of what is in that
organization, right. So, conversations
about college, conversations about school, was not a conversation
that was had at my table. So, if you can imagine growing up in that type
of environment, I had no idea even
how to apply for college. My parents had no interest in helping me apply
for college. I knew nothing about
financial aid or the sort. So, what ended up
happening eventually is I joined the military, purely for
the educational benefits, to go to school. So, fast forward. And that in itself
is not acceptable to Jehovah's Witnesses? Oh, absolutely not. That, that, normally,
that would immediately disfellowship you
from the organization. I say normally,
because in my case, I did what they call
disassociated myself. So I disassociated myself
from the organization, as opposed
to allowing them to disfellowship me. I disassociated myself, and I joined the military. Though I developed, which, you know,
I joined the Marine Corps, and you can't help but develop
a patriotic spirit when you join
the Marine Corps. When I initially went in, it wasn't for any
patriotic obligation. It was purely to get out
of a situation and to work towards an ability
to go to school. After the military, I, under the encouragement
of my wife, went to school. I went to
Youngstown State, and I double majored
in Philosophy and Religious Studies
and minored in Greek, all from
this constant chase of trying to define, understand, articulate
who God was. <i>Once you</i>
disassociated yourself; our guest is Cary Dabney, sorry, I wanted to remind
the audience of that. Once you disassociated
yourself from Jehovah's Witnesses, did you have any religious
practice after that, during this time
of military and college or you know? I dabbled
in a few things. I was part of a nondenominational
faith tradition, which it was
nondenominational, but it had a Pentecostal
tradition to it. I dabbled in
the Episcopal Church, went to a couple of Methodist,
you know. So, I kind of did
a round-tree, so to speak, but what I did not do
was the Catholic Church. [laughs] As a matter fact, I purposely avoided
the Catholic Church. Again, and I don't say
this jokingly, because of some PTSD from being one of
the Jehovah's Witnesses. One of the primary
understandings of Jehovah's Witnesses
of the Catholic Church, I mean it is,
it literally has stated in their material,
for example, that the Holy Father
is the antichrist, right? So, that was some scarring
that was in my mind. I might be looking around, but [laughs] definitely
not the Catholic Church. That was not even
in my radar. But there's two things that led me
to the Catholic Church, or least the inquiry
of the Catholic Church. First and foremost
is my wife. When me and my wife
got married, she was not practicing
at the time, but my wife
is a cradle Catholic. So, as we grew
in our relationship, while simultaneously
I was going to school, she began to practice
her faith. I began to have
children of my own. And I say, she began
to feel that call Home, because now she
had children. Right? So, the children
were baptized, prior to me
being baptized. They were being
raised in the faith. So, that was
the first leaning. Now, I, intellectually, I justified it by saying, 'Well, I mean,
the Catholic tradition, you look at their
social teaching, it's a good
social teaching, it's a good moral teaching. Okay, the kids, I get. I'm not doing it,
but the kids are okay.' Right? [laughs] That's where,
that's where I was at. Now, I mentioned I was simultaneously going
to school. Well, as I was going
to school at Youngstown State
University, as I mentioned, I was both a Religious
Studies major and a Philosophy major. We got to a course that I had to take
in Medieval Philosophy. You cannot study
Medieval Philosophy, and I don't care where you are
on the spectrum, whether you're
a full-blown atheist or, you know, a firm
convicted believer, anywhere in that spectrum, you can't study
Medieval Philosophy without studying
Thomas Aquinas. Right? And so, as I'm studying
Thomas Aquinas, and I guess I neglected
to mention, when I first
went into school, I remember specifically
saying to my wife, which I'm sure this is something
you hear all the time, is, "I'm going
to prove to you why the Catholic tradition is not the
correct tradition. I don't know what, I may be on this journey
about where truth is, but I know it's not
the Catholic Church, and, Dear, I'm going
to show you through my studies why it's not
the Catholic Church." Obviously, we get to
Medieval Philosophy. You're studying
Thomas Aquinas. And quite frankly,
intellectually, I submitted and said, "Okay, if I want to take this
Christian thing seriously, when you peel back
all the pieces, you have no choice but to acknowledge
the tradition that today is called
the Catholic Church, is the Christian
tradition." Right? And for me, Thomas Aquinas
was the first to bring both the secular world
and the theological world together and reconciled
them for me in my journey. That day; I shouldn't
say that day, but that semester is when I finally
went to my wife and said, "You know what? I'm ready, I'm ready," and I began RCIA. And over the course
of that year, I was converted and came
into the faith, so. I was wondering, was, what it was about Aquinas
that appealed to you, and I was thinking
about you being a young man that had
all these questions that weren't
being answered. But I mean, that's
his whole format. Correct. Here are the questions. Here are some answers. And he was asking the same questions
I was asking, and in typical
analytic fashion, before he even answered
the questions, he brought up
objections. Right? So, the objections
to his answer is also included
in the answer. So, he leaves no way out,
so to speak, from having
the conversation, which spoke to me, because that's ultimately
what I was looking for. <i>Yeah.</i> Yeah. It's true of anyone
that comes from any other tradition
into the Church, they're going to,
they're going to have, as you call it. What'd you call it, PS? <i>PTSD.</i> PTSD. There they are, and they don't just
disappear overnight. <i>Correct.</i> So, I'm thinking
you had some baggage. For example,
it's one thing to pay a visit
to an Anglican or maybe a Methodist
or Pentecostal church, but that first trip
into a Catholic church, my guess for you might
have been an eye-opener? <i>Well, </i>this is the thing. Remember, my wife was
cradle Catholic, right? So, there's been funeral
Masses I had attended. There was, obviously the
baptism of all my children. So, I had been
in the Catholic Church, but it wasn't
until I submitted my own intellect and recognized
at the end of the day what I was looking at
was Jesus. It was then, the next time
I went into Mass, that quite frankly,
I became overwhelmed. If you want to say,
'When was my Paul moment?' It was after I recognized, and openly said, and made a commitment to the tradition
that this is the truth. Then walked into Mass
with my wife the next time, and when the priest held up
the Body of Christ, I got overwhelmed
and cried, because now I can
finally see, you can finally see. I'm a firm believer that as long as you see truth
as the authority, and you continue to work
down that journey, you cannot look upon
the Blessed Sacrament, once you recognize It
as truth, and turn away from It. Because It is;
It's Him, right? So your orientation
cannot do anything but just become
overwhelmed. And so, in that sense, I would say it was
in that moment that I truly went
to the Church for the first time, because I recognized
what was being offered. And then I had a desire
to be part of the table, right, which leads
you to RCIA, and then conversion. I was thinking that the Lord
was gracious to you, because for so many
non-Catholic Christians, they just don't get
the transubstantiation, substance, accidents,
all that stuff. Well, that's where
He began you. God began you
with Aquinas. Right. To understand
that background. To understand at least one way of explaining
the mystery, I mean, it's
still a mystery. But.. But even though
I could recite intellectually
what Thomas Aquinas is teaching us with
transubstantiation, so could the professor
who was agnostic in the classroom, right? So that's why I still say,
at the end of the day, it is that grace that I genuinely
am grateful for, to reveal what
was in front of me. Because not only
in the classroom, but, you know, I have,
as I mentioned before, I have four other brothers, and we all grew up
in the same environment. So, why is it that I was
able to discern what they, to this day,
are not able to discern? It's just grace. It is, it is
genuine grace that allowed me
to perceive, even though I couldn't
comprehend it at the time, perceive that
where I was, was not the full,
as a matter of fact, it was a completely
distorted... Yeah. ...depiction
of who God is: Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit. Yeah, there is that,
that mystery of grace that theologians
have argued over for hundreds of years, because you
and your four brothers, was it that they
were all given this grace, but only you responded? Or was it just that you
were given that grace? What does that
tell us about God and how He works
with people? It's a mystery! Right, absolutely. But it should just
draw us to our knees. Absolutely. "Thank you, Lord." I don't know why,
[chuckles] But I was
thinking about that before you even
mentioned it, when you were
telling the story. Yet, there you were
in the midst of it, without no input about
the Catholic Church at all, but God touched you. Amen. The grateful mystery
of that. Not only did I not
have any input, I was running from it. So, [laughter] it's more than just not
having any input. I was literally,
intentionally avoiding it. And yet, still at the end
of the day, kept getting pulled,
literally, pulled towards
the Eucharist. And so, other than
the Eucharist, let's think about a few
other things that your, your baggage may have
made it hard for you. What would you say
were the hardest things? I mean, there
wasn't confession in the Jehovah's
Witness church. <i>No.</i> I didn't have,
truth be told, I didn't have much issue
with confession, because, at the point, and I have to
give credit to my church family of St Christine's
in Youngstown, Ohio. The RCIA team
was phenomenal. Because by time we got to
the sacrament of confession, it was explained in such
a way that I didn't, that I didn't have
any issue with that. Probably one of the things I asked a lot
of questions about, and again, it's because
it's a misunderstanding, probably no different
than Jehovah's Witnesses and any other tradition, and that is the place
of Our Mother. That was
something I had to, I really wrestled with, because my search in my mind
was so much for God, that once we began to talk
about the Mother, I began to look at it
initially wrong, as if Mother
is in the way, versus our devotion
to Mother actually brings us
even more in adoration of
God the Father, through and by means
of Jesus. Right? So, that was one of
the difficulties in the beginning. It purely was because
of a misunderstanding. And then obviously when you
start talking about Mother, then you also talk
about the other saints. Right? So, it's a misunderstanding
of what actually is taking place in our devotion or in
our reverence of the saints. So, those pieces;
I did, I had to do some what I call
some remedial work. I had to stay after class
a little bit and ask questions
of my sponsors about those type
of things early on, because it just,
it's so foreign; or at least it was,
so foreign to me, during my journey,
so that piece I had to... <i>Another piece</i>
that I'm wondering was it, was this,
the issue of baptism, because you wouldn't
have been baptized a Jehovah's Witness. And I mean, to truly see that it's not merely
another rite you go through, but that you're sitting here
a different person because of that. That whole idea
is radically different. Again, I think for me, because a lot of these, what would traditionally
kind of be an issue or stumbling
block for others, I was okay with because of
the intellectual pursuit I had
already made. So, by reading Aquinas, right, that I don't
want to make anyone, mislead anyone and say,
'I only read Aquinas,' because once
you read Aquinas, Aquinas didn't see
himself as an authority. So that means he listed
other authorities, which makes you go back to read other
Church Fathers. Right? So, at this point, prior to me even coming
to the point of saying, 'Okay, I want to pursue
my relationship with The Church,
the Catholic Church,' I had already had
a full understanding, intellectually, of the understanding
of what baptism meant. Why do we say one baptism? What ontologically
takes place at baptism? All those things I had
already wrestled with prior to coming to RCIA. So, for me, because of
the intellectual pursuit, I really was ready
through RCIA, except for, like I say, except for the Blessed Mother
and the saints. Other than that,
I understood intellectually. Now, I will say the
spiritual aspect of it, how it all came together
and its relationship to, and how all the sacraments funnel through the table
and the altar, that piece is what was
very forming for me through the process,
the spiritual aspect of it. Going on that
spiritual aspect, I was thinking
of another thing that might be different. This idea that
Catholic emphasis on the necessity
of continual conversion. Mm-hmm. Continual growth
in grace, growth in holiness. Was that a part
of Jehovah's Witnesses at all? No, because
you're given, so, you're given, I mean, I literally
have textbooks that say;
this is where it, you know,
this is where; you get to a point
where you've arrived, okay, [chuckle] when you are one of
the Jehovah's Witnesses. This is what
the faith is. You have this list. You live by this faith, then your job is to get others
to that point, versus the continuing
conversion, which for me, again,
the spiritual aspect of it resonated with me. One of my
favorite sayings is that, from
Cardinal Newman, is that, "A thousand difficulties does not lead
to one doubt." Marcus: <i>Yeah.</i> So, to say that,
even currently, as a aspiring theologian, as one who works
for the Church, in the Diocese
of Cleveland, to say that
I'd never come across any difficulties
in my understanding or in the flow
in the movement of the tradition; I'd be lying
if I said that. Right? So, when you come
to difficulties, you come to questions. But as long
as your orientation stays on the Eucharist, you continue to cultivate both your own faith
and the support and the cultivation
of the faith of the Church. That's actually
encouraged, which speaks volumes to me, versus where I came from where you're taught
not to question. [laughter] You don't ask. Right. You know, when the
Jehovah's Witness comes to your door, if you can get them
off track, well then,
what do they do? Absolutely,
it's so rehearsed. But I was even thinking, yeah, if you're going
to be a theologian, you got to look
at all the questions. Absolutely. And which is why; you're going to a really
tame school, right, called Harvard
Divinity School, or you went there? Well, I went there.
[laughs] I mean, talk
about all the issues. Yeah. The reason why I chose Harvard Divinity School
is twofold. First, I did choose it because it's Harvard
Divinity School. It is the greatest asset, access to resources
in the nation. It's the oldest university
in the nation. There is something to being
a Harvard student. But in addition to that, Harvard is part of
what's called the Boston
Theological Institute, so I was allowed
to take courses, both at Harvard
Divinity School, but also take those
simultaneously at St John's Seminary
in Boston, which is the seminary for
the Archdiocese of Boston. So, I was blessed to
take both courses. So, if you can imagine, I'm taking a course
on ethics at Harvard Divinity
School, but then taking moral theology
at St John's Seminary, at the same time. Yeah, there's some
whiplash, right, because you're talking
two ends of the spectrum, but I think it actually makes you
a better theologian. <i>I couldn't </i>agree more. Because you're getting
all the questions. You're getting all the
questions being asked from both sides. The questions
that the people you're going to serve
are going to have. Absolutely. Yep. And I remember
that Consortium, because my school
was a part of that. I went to Gordon Conwell. Oh, okay. So,
yeah, exactly! [laughter] So, I was up
on the north shore, while you were down there
in the city. [chuckles] Well, let's take a break. And we'll come back
with some more questions, because I'd love to talk about some of the work
you're doing. Okay. So, we'll come back. So, again, our guest
is Cary Dabney. We'll be back
in just a moment with more questions
about his journey. See you in a bit. [music] [music] Marcus: Welcome back
to 'The Journey Home'. I'm Marcus Grodi, your host. And our guest is Cary Dabney, former Jehovah's Witness. And I'll again remind you that he is the Director
of the Office of Ministry to
African-American Catholics for the Diocese
of Cleveland. I want to make sure
we talk about that important ministry
in a little bit. But I did have a couple
of other questions that I wanted to ask. And now that we've got
you in the Church, right, we've got you
in the Church, you and your wife
are in the Church, a lot of us are, at least had
the experience of a Jehovah's Witness
knocking on our door, but I think a lot of us
don't realize that there are some things that are
radically different in what Jehovah's
Witnesses believe, and not just from
what Catholics believe, but what all other
Christians believe. And I was wondering
what, for example? I mean, one of which is I think
of our Lord Jesus Christ. Well, one thing
that is a staple in the Christian tradition is the understanding
that God is Father, Son
and Holy Spirit. And All are consubstantial
with each other. Well, in the Jehovah's
Witnesses tradition, that's not the case. They believe,
first of all and foremost, the Holy Spirit
is not a person. The Holy Spirit is just
a spirit, all right, that is used, not spirit in the sense
of a spirit body, but a moving force
that can be used by God, of title, of which Jehovah
that they use, one of the titles of God, but they say
that His name, by distortion
of the biblical text, that He uses as an instrument
of His will. And that Jesus is not
consubstantial with God. Jesus is the first
of all creation. He is the greatest
of all creations, but He is a creature,
He is created, He was created
as the first, as an angel who came down
here to earth, born of the Virgin Mary, lived a life,
a sinless life. He died and was
resurrected. However,
upon His Resurrection, He just became
an angel again. All right?
So there's a difference, He's not, He's not divine in the sense that in
consubstantial with God. So, that is
a significant difference and a very dangerous one, but it is
a significant difference. Oh yeah, so, I mean
that really, in some ways, it's true that in essence, as you were talking about
this discovery of history, you're discovering
something that your average
Jehovah's Witness... ..has no idea. No clue. Because they're taught that the mainstream
Christian thought, which regardless of
the Christian tradition, all of us can reach back
to the Creed. Right? The very tenets
of the Creed, Jehovah's Witnesses
are told, is not the truth, is a distortion itself of what genuinely
is Christian. So, to continue
their continu ...; excuse me,
their entire concept of who God is
in His nature is distorted. So... when you don't know
the history, you also don't know that you're just repeating
an early heresy. <i>They have</i> <i>no</i> idea that their fundamental
foundation of their tradition
was heresies that were argued
centuries ago. They have no, [chuckle]
they have no idea that that is actually what
they're promulgating. They don't have a clue. And I also want to mention that obviously
this also distorts their understanding
of the Eucharist, because if Jesus
was never divine, the very understanding of the entire purpose
of the Eucharist, or what they call the Day
of Memorial of Jesus' death, is completely distorted
and completely misapplied, and misunderstood on what
the bread and wine, even actually initially
is even supposed to become. I'm almost hearing
somebody yelling at home, "Well, how did this
Jehovah's Witness ever start? Why did they start?" As you look back, I mean, what, why did this group start
when it did? What was the motives
behind the whole origin of Jehovah's Witnesses? Well, if you look,
I mean it's no different than any other Protestant
reform movement, right? Initially, you look at
the tradition of the Church. They look at aspects,
practice of the Church, that a small group,
a small sect, did not agree with, and began to look
at other ways or determinations
or interpretations of tradition to fit
their lens. That's how it,
that's how it started. Their, their beliefs began
to get mixed with some very interesting agnostic outside
of Christian traditions, in the mix of the two. It started here in
the United States; their, who they identify
as their founder, Pastor Russell. He began to get really into the whole prophesying of when the end
would actually come. And so, that's why, and there's dates
in the past that were supposed
to take place, obviously didn't
take place, so then it continues
to change through time. But the point is
they're very into trying to identify when "Armageddon"
is going to come. So, for them,
and I've said this earlier in the program, for them the return
of Jesus is not so much as a return
of the ultimate grace, and the return
of full communion. It's a return of judgment. Which is at that point, 144,000 are going
to make it up there, and the rest are going to be
left, if whoever, right? Which by the way, is a prime example of how
they distort Scripture. That number, 144,000, they're lifting right out
of the Book of Revelation, but ironically, they take
that number literally, but right after that,
in Revelation, where it talks about
the 144,000 is made up of 12,000 from each
of the tribe of Israel, they say that's symbolic. So, and that's a game
that they play with the Bible throughout. They take what they,
to support their doctrine. Okay, this is literal, but then the Scriptures
around it, they take out of
context and say, well, that part
is symbolic. And if we think about it, 144,000 since the time
of the apostles, is what they're saying,
that is it, that will go to Heaven; there's been a lot
of saints between the time of Jesus
and up till now, and they still say that
there are those now who are part
of the 144,000. So it just, it leans to the dangerous practice that they have in
the use of Scripture. I asked you earlier, when we were off-camera, whether at the time you thought you were
one of the 144,000? Yes. No,
I could not have been, because the, the,
the explanation is, if you ask if you are part
of 144,000, then you're not. [laughter] You have to just know. You just have to know. So, if you've asked
the question, you already know
you're not. I love that. Now, it isn't that the Jehovah's Witnesses
reject the Bible, because they have their,
what's it called? The World...? New World Translation. The New World Translation. They have the Bible, but it's a little
different. Right? It is quite
a bit different. If you look at the history of those who did the first "New World Translation"
of Scripture, any, and I challenge
any undergraduate level Greek or Hebrew student, if you take the manuscripts and compare the manuscripts to the New World
Translation; before you finish
your first semester, you're going to realize
this is not anywhere near the translation
for the manuscripts. There has been
passages redacted. There's been words added, all to lean towards
their doctrine. This coupled
with the promulgation of the idea
that their translation is the only true
translation. So, if you can try
to picture those who are
Jehovah's Witnesses, they're being told that all the other translations
are inaccurate. This is the only
accurate translation, and then there's words
that are added, you can come to
understand why, and that's why I don't, I don't hold any ill-will towards any practicing
Jehovah's Witnesses. I think they're sincere in what they believe to be
authentic Scripture. It just isn't. And without,
without the education, which they also
don't encourage, there's no way
to know that. Unless you study Greek
and Hebrew and Aramaic, and look
at the manuscripts, you'll never see
where they've made adjustments to the text. Oh boy, as you said,
no ill-will. I mean they need
our prayers. Absolutely. Because if you've
been taught from the moment
you can think that the Pope
is the antichrist, and everybody
outside this church is going to lie to you, is totally untrustworthy. And that God is coming
to smote those outside. I mean that is
a real, real fear. And I'm saying
from experience, that is a real fear whenever you start
to question, because they're taught,
when you question, that's satan
getting in you. So you, even though you
may question, you say, "I'm not," you burn it
away right away, because you start
having the fear that you don't want to be. I mean, who wants to be
burned alive, you know, [laughs] at
Armageddon, right? So you, you try to
ignore the questions. I know this was true
of the Mormon Church, but I'm not sure
it was true of the Jehovah's Witnesses. It took a while
before African-Americans were fully accepted within the
Jehovah's Witness Church, isn't that true? That's not
my understanding. My understanding is, from the beginning
you had, I mean... And, again, I wasn't sure,
but I was wondering. I mean, no different than anywhere else
in this country, you have a delay, I'll say, in the embrace of the African-American
community, but that's primarily because of the history
of the country. The unfortunate history
of our country of the institution
of slavery. Right? It created a consciousness
in the country that African-Americans and the descendants of slaves,
are a subculture. Right? So, no different than any other tradition, there's a delay. However, I would also say the embrace
in the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses
happened quicker, because African-Americans, or the descendants of slaves,
were not as educated. So, the lack of education led to a lack
of questioning. So, you would take
whatever came to you from Scripture as actual, 'Okay, this is,
this the truth, this is the teaching,' because they didn't
have the ability to even question. The Church teaches that it does not
hold accountable those who are born
into these communities. That's a teaching of
the Catholic Church. So, we recognize someone born
in the Jehovah's Witnesses, to a certain extent,
they're invincibly ignorant. And so, we pray for God's
grace in their life and mercy on them. But when I look back
on just what you've said, I wonder whether the leaders
of the Church, as they reach out
to the African community, were as interested
in their salvation as they were
in the pyramid structure. You know,
we've got these people that they don't understand
very well, so they're going
to be great ones to make them
to get out there. You know what I'm saying? And I wonder
if they've done that with the other poor,
the other uneducated. I would say that,
in their defense, the Jehovah's Witnesses that I have come
in contact with and the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was in
the organization, they are sincere. I do not believe that any evangelization
on their part, or any point of conversion
on their part, is part of any scheme. I think they
sincerely believe what they're being taught. They sincerely believe
that they are saving lives. So, on the one hand,
that's a good thing. I mean, they are
very sincere people. And so, as we believe that their
invincible ignorance, but it also says why they're going to be
really hard to reach. Correct.
It's a two-edge sword. One of the things that I
personally try to do, and I have a passion for, is to ensure that my fellow brothers and sisters
in the faith, have the tools necessary to be able to contend
for our faith. Unfortunately,
just as you have those who convert
into the Catholic tradition, you have those
who are talked out of the Catholic tradition, for lack of having
the tools necessary to contend for our faith. And so, if we aren't continuing to grow
and develop our faith, it's going to be easier for a Jehovah's Witness
to come to your door, open up a Bible
that is not yours, and you don't know that, because you've never
opened up your own Bible to realize this is
not your Bible that they're reading from, and they can distort, and make you think that the Catholic
tradition has held something
from you. Make you think that
the Catholic tradition is promulgating something
that's not in Scripture, because you don't know. And so, that's why
it is important. And I personally
do what I can, both in my role
in the Diocese of Cleveland, but just as
a good Catholic, to help emphasize
the importance of our own personal
development in our ability
of resources to contend for the faith. "<i>In the</i> beginning
was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God." That's what
their Bible says. That's what
their Bible says. Ours says, "The Word was God."
Big difference. Absolutely. Absolutely. Which is why we need
to get good Catholics who read their Bible! That's right, exactly.
[laughter] Exactly. You work specifically
for the Diocese to African-American
Catholics. Is it both a formation for those who are
already Catholics, but also
are reaching out? It's a combination
of both. My office is not the,
it's not unique. There are many diocese
across the country who have offices for African-American
Catholics or African Catholics. The point of the office
in every diocese is to do two things,
it's twofold. Both is to support and advocate
for the unique needs for African-American
Catholics in the diocese, which is not always
on the forefront, primarily because
of the number of African-American
Catholics that there are
in a diocese. So my role is to ensure
that the diocese, when it rolls out
its programs, its resources,
that there is a sensitivity to the unique needs for the African-American
community, both for current Catholics, but also in our service to African-American
communities who may not be Catholic. Primary example,
throughout our country, there's a growing number
of change in enrollment in our Catholic schools, because of
the deficiencies, for whatever reason, in and out of
the public schools, the parents
in all communities, but I'm speaking
through the lens of African-American
community, they see the benefits
of our Catholic schools. So, a lot of
their children go to our
Catholic schools, though they may not
be Catholic. One thing we want
to remember, and what I try
to have those of who work in a school, in our schools in the Diocese
of Cleveland, remember, is we don't do what we do because who we serve
as Catholic, we do what we do
because we're Catholic. Right? So, that is a way to outreach those families who are coming
into our institutions and our services, and evangelize
in a sense that living our lives, according to the Gospel, even in the school system. And it has been proven that that exposure
to our tradition has led families
to becoming Catholic. Marcus: <i>Oh sure.</i> And certainly
for the first time experiencing the joys and the fruits
of our rich tradition. <i>And there</i> is
always that pressure in a Catholic school that has
non-Catholic students; to what extent
do we stay Catholic? There's that pressure. I just heard recently
in the news that some bishop
somewhere in the world decided he wasn't
going to have the Creed said
in the Mass. He didn't want to offend those non-Catholics
that were there. And I'm thinking;
"Wait a second; this is who we are." And, you know,
how do you preserve that in the school
to make sure that these that are
coming out understand this
is a Catholic place? Well, the Diocese
of Cleveland; I don't, it's outside of
my office's responsibility to make those decisions. However, I will say
that the diocese has a strong commitment to our Catholic identity. And there is no dilution of our Catholic identity
in the schools. In fact,
exposing the children, even though they're non-Catholic
to the tradition, has actually led to more
interest in the tradition. Marcus: <i>Yeah, yeah.</i> I wanted to mention, I know sometimes
I've received emails and letters. You know, why don't I have more African-American
guests? I would love to. It's not that we'll
make a choice, one way or another. It's that I've not had that many
African-American converts, reverts,
coming to the program. But you tell me
there are actually are more than
we realize. Right? <i>I can only speak, </i>again, from the lens of
the Diocese of Cleveland, but we have a parish
in the Diocese of Cleveland, St Agnes,
Our Lady of Fatima, where the majority
of the members, I would say close to 70-75% of the members
are converts. So, the activity
is happening, conversion is happening, the faith is growing
in these communities. Percentage-wise, they're growing
in leaps and bounds. The numbers
may not be there, if you're looking
at straight headcounts, but percentage-wise, that's where the growth of the Church is
in the country. It's in the smaller
communities, where there is
a recognized appreciation between faith and culture. <i>Yeah,</i> and you and I were
talking a little bit before the program. One thing that I truly have always
just appreciated is the reality
of the spirituality in the African tradition, the American tradition, we see the evidence
of God's grace, even in the lives
of men and women who their whole lives would have never ever
had the chance to hear about
the Catholic faith. And we know
that that was real, because we sing the songs! Absolutely. I mean, talk about that even in your own life. I mean, I don't know
if you had those hymns when you were in
Jehovah's Witnesses, but in some ways, the discovery
of that tradition is such a powerful part
of our whole heritage. Well, we certainly didn't
have those hymns as Jehovah's Witnesses, but I have grown to have
an appreciation for them, hymns that a lot of people
don't even realize are Negro spirituals, that are in our hymns, and we sing every Lent,
we sing every Christmas. And you have to look, I challenge anyone look at
the bottom of your hymnal, down at the bottom,
in the small writing, you'll see where it says,
Negro Spirituals. And these are from
spiritual traditions that were not Catholic.
Okay? These are the descendants
of slaves, who were on plantations,
in fields, singing these songs, born out of
their joint suffering that Christ truly
assumed for them 2,000 years
before they were there. They come forth
with these beautiful hymns and these beautiful songs about the relationship, their relationship
with Jesus. Two of my favorites,
of course, "Were You There When
They Crucified My Lord?" There's that one we sing. But another one is, "I Want to Be a Christian
in My Heart." Absolutely. I mean, the theology don't get better
than that. I mean, it's just really,
really powerful. My favorite is,
"We've Come This Far by Faith". And that's with me personally,
probably [chuckles] but you know, we come
to where we are, purely stepping out
on faith. "Go Tell It
On The Mountain." Amen. I mean there we are. The theology is very deep. And I think, as a Catholic,
Catholic convert, it makes, one of
the reasons I appreciate the Catholic Church
is the Church doesn't say, 'The reality
of Christ's people ends at this door.' No. We recognize the work
of God's grace. What can we do to reach out more to the African-American
community for our faith? Across your diocese, every diocese
has an office for either
multicultural office or an office for
African-American Catholics or African Catholics. I would say, reach out
to those offices, and ask those offices, "What can we do to help? What resources can
we help provide?" Sometimes it may
be monetarily. Sometimes it
may be bodies. Each diocese ensure that the communities
are invited to the events, invited. Show them the larger arm
of the Church and that they're genuinely
wanted and embraced. I think that that will,
just that effort will go a long way in the
evangelization efforts in the African-American
community. What about our
Jehovah's Witness neighbors? Of course, they're not
connected with us, right? I mean, do
Jehovah's Witnesses have much connection with other people
outside the faith? No, not at all. But I will say, no different than
with our Lord and Savior, what we see
from the Gospels, and that is, simply live
out the faith. When they come to your door,
don't avoid them, as much as you may
want to. [laughs] Invite them in,
have the conversation, because even if they leave, obviously not converting
at your door, you never know what seed
you're planting for them
to spark and activate the same grace that happened
to me, right? So, that's what
I would say. If you go at them,
"You're wrong, this is what's right,"
they're not going to listen. But if you invite them in,
have the conversation, and strategically
and effectively just leave questions for them
when they go to leave. Marcus: <i>What kind
of questions?</i> Umm. Marcus: <i>I mean,
what do you think?</i> Whatever you're
comfortable with; for most of us,
it's the Eucharist, right? Talk about the Eucharist. Talk about what the
Eucharist means for you. The more, in my opinion, they think about
and they ponder when they leave
about the Eucharist, the more it would lead them
to more questions. Well, that's interesting. Is, for example,
is John 6 the same in that
New World Translation? You know, "Unless you eat
My body and drink My blood, you have no life within me"? It is, but;
that part is there, but their explanation
later on in John, when he says, when he talks
about during his, during his meditations
towards the end, they change some of
the terminology, so they are able to say, "Well, he was just
using it as a example, as a, he was saying,
so body of flesh. He didn't really mean,
eat his body and flesh. It was an example. It was a hyperbole
that he was using." We've got
about a minute left. When you were a young man,
did you go door-to-door, were you a part
of those teams? I spent thousands of hours
going [laughs] door-to-door. Is it possible that somebody
might have planted a seed on one of those trips,
you know what I mean? No. Not at that point. Not in your experience? Not in my experience. No. Okay. All right. But I was pretty good
at it though. [laughs] I was just wondering, what God might have used. Because, I mean, I believe that God can just zap you
with grace, in the midst of,
but I just wondered. But all right, my friend. Well, once again, Director of the Office
of Ministry to African-American
Catholics for the Diocese
of Cleveland. I mean, powerful
work, Cary. Are you done with
your Harvard studies? I'm done with
my Harvard studies. I've been done since 2016. I'm currently
at Duquesne University, working on my Doctorate
in Systematic Theology. Very good. And your goal? Well, my goal
is to get my PhD. I'll probably always
be in the classroom teaching somewhere, but ultimately, my goal is to use
what I've learned. Let me put it this way, I never want to become
so heavenly-minded that I'm of no
earthly good, whatsoever. So I'll just use those
studies to enhance my work in the Diocese
of Cleveland. All right.
Cary, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much
for sharing on our program, and also, for the work
that you're doing. What a great
witness you are. Thank you very much. Thank you. And thank you for joining us on this program. Again, a reminder, if you go to our website,
chnetwork.org, you'll find a lot
of conversion stories, including Cary's, but also, other former
Jehovah's Witnesses. If you're wondering, 'What is it that
brought these folks back to the Catholic Church?' Well, there's a lot of stories
like that you can find on our website. So, once again, God bless you. Look forward to seeing
you again next week. [music]
